EP197. Inclusive beauty - transforming skincare for racial equity

Inclusivity is the buzzword of the moment in the beauty industry, and many brands are actively and publicly talking about the ways that they want to improve inclusivity in their business. But do those words really hold meaning? And is the industry really doing its best when you boil it down to the very core of its mission and its products? So what do I mean by that? Well, are the formulations created by the beauty industry suitable for all skin tones and hair types? Are all skin tones considered in the creation and design of beauty products? Are all skin tones and hair types incorporated into the testing of beauty products? Is sufficient research undertaken on skin tones and hair types that have been badly neglected by beauty up until now? The answer to those questions is, of course, a loud, resounding no. Which is why I can very confidently state that inclusivity has a very long way to go in beauty, and my guest today on the podcast actively champions that point, which is why she's created a pioneering skin tone research system that is actively helping customers with skin phototypes 4, 5 and 6. Now, if you want to learn about what skin phototypes are first of all, and hear about the ways that one entrepreneur is single handedly on a mission to make beauty more scientifically inclusive, you're going to want to hear this interview with Noelie Michaux of 456Skin. Welcome to Green Beauty Conversations, the podcast that challenges you to think about how you buy, use, make or sell your green beauty formulations. In my weekly episodes, I explore the sustainability of the beauty industry and encourage you to join me in changing the industry for the better. I'm your host, Lorraine Dallmeyer. I'm a chartered environmentalist, biologist and the CEO of award winning online organic cosmetic formulation school Formula Botanica. We have thousands and thousands of students in over 190 countries around the world who study with us to become organic VT formulators and entrepreneurs. Visit our website at formulabotanica.com to try our free free online formulation course. And if you want to be the first person to know what's happening in green beauty, make sure you subscribe to this podcast in your favorite podcast app. So in today's episode, I'm joined by Noelie Michoux, founder of 456Skin. After growing up in Normandy in France and moving throughout Europe during her young adult life, Noelie landed in New York City as an E. Comm Director for luxury beauty and skincare brands. Surprised by the lack of products specifically formulated for people like her with melanin rich skin, especially in a country as culturally diverse as the US Noeli became fascinated with researching skin physiology and she wanted to understand why there was such an apparent lack of inclusivity in the market. With a passion for educating people with melanin rich skin about their shared skin concerns, Noeli dreamed of a customized physiology led skincare company that designs formulations that are safe and effective and for people with skin phototypes 4, 5 and 6. Hi Noeli, how are you doing today?

I am fantastic. How are you?

I'm good and I'm really pleased that you're here because this is going to be such an interesting interview and I know our listeners are going to really benefit from this. So let's first of all talk about who you are and what you do. Can you give us an introduction please?

Yes. My name is Noelie Michoud. That's how we say it in France. Noelie Michou I was born in Cameroon and I grew up in France in a little village in Normandy. And my background is really in business and marketing. I studied business marketing actually in London, went out to do a master's degree in industrial purchasing. None of that has been really aligned with what I do today. But it was very interesting for me to kind of work in diverse industry. I've worked in the pharmac physical industry, but on the data side as a business intelligence consultant, worked in purchasing in marketing. And yeah, I guess I kind of grew up as a young black woman who was really confused about what she really wanted to do in life that went into the corporate world without feeling any kind of emotional attachment, motivation or purpose into it. And it was essentially jobs that allowed me to pay for my ways. And that is until I discovered the world of beauty. Beauty has always been a huge part of my life as a black woman. Obviously we grew up with this education that having good skin, great skin, neurit skin is so important. So growing up in France, obviously that was a challenge for me. This is an experience that all black women and women of color go through. So nothing unique there. And it's really when I moved to New York, I moved to New York in 2013 to initially follow my fiance. That worked out well. We're still together, we have two kids. So that was a good decision on my part. I followed him and I literally had to rethink my entire life because the career that I had in France made no sense in the US I had to kind of start over and I got a job in an e commerce company in New York that specialized in luxury beauty. And this is How I got into the beauty world and having that experience really allowed me to connect the industry with my own experience as a black woman and really made me realize that when we talk about the lack of inclusivity in the beauty industry, the topic goes deeper and is a global topic because I can see that women in the United States, which is the most powerful country in the world with the most visible, diverse population, had the same issues and the same struggles that I was having growing up in France. And so the desire, it was really like a calling to start the skin tone research lab and 456skin kind of came from realizing that our entire industry has been set to serve not the entirety of its population. And so, yes, four years ago I started a skin tone research lab in France with two of my scientist co founders. And our brand is called 456Skin. And the whole mission is really to help close the skin care racial equity gap and create just amazing products that are compatible with the physiology of people with skin phototype 4, 5 and 6. And yeah, ongoing. It's ongoing.

Amazing. Well, we're going to dive into all of that in more detail on the podcast.

First of all, can you tell us.

What the skin tone research lab actually is and how it works?

Yes. So I started this project, I still call it a project because I feel like it's always on the move and it's recreating itself every time. I obviously never thought that I was going to have to start a lab. I thought I had an amazing idea that what I wanted to do was quite necessary and then that any lab was going to want to work with me to give life to this idea. But the response that I got was very underwhelming. And I basically got told by all the lab that I approached that they did not make formula specifically for darker skin tones, in that I could go the traditional route of starting a skincare brand, which is buy white label formulas which have essentially been researched, developed and tested on the skin phototype 1, 2 and 3 white skin, and add whatever ingredient you people like, is it shea moringa? And run with it. And so that really felt like, first of all, kind of like a waste of my time and my energy didn't feel aligned with what I really wanted to do, what my soul was being called for. And it would have been a straight out betrayal to the community. And so I started looking for scientists to co create, ended up having an incubation with the LVMH Research center in France and they offered us this amazing opportunity for us to have our own lab where we could create from scratch and do the work that the industry hasn't done from there. After our incubation with the LVMH research center, because it was a one year incubation, we had some formulas created. But then the research process doesn't stop there. You usually need to go through the whole shebang of testing and then the whole shebang of industrial transposition. Right where you go from I have a formula to I have a product. And in that part, we realized that having to go to an established manufacturer to do our industrial transposition was just going to be impossible because the way we had created our formula was so different from what the industry does, you know, from our water, it's different. So imagine going to a manufacturer and saying, hey, I have no market yet, no customers, but I'm going to need you to change your whole water system so you can use my vitalized water to create my product. So obviously that was a big no, no. And in the way we create our texture, our preservatives, a lot of it was so different that working with an established manufacturer was going to take us years to get anywhere. So we were like, let's be smarter and let's just strengthen then our own route and create our own space. So we raised money and instead of going to markets and this is crazy, my investors were like, what are you doing? You're supposed to go get the customers. Like, yes, later. So we decided to create our own lab and we created a manufacturing unit attached to the lab. And I'm so lucky to have co founders that really understand and expert of the process. And so the Skin Stone lab, I call it, is a sacred place where we really get to the root of what is the darker skin physiology. What are the differences, the nuances here? What is melanin? And how can we create a skincare philosophy that is going to address all these differences, all these nuances, and do it in a way that is different, biocompatible with the human skin at large, but specifically to the darker skin tone. So we own our entire process. Today, we do it all from the research. We work with the University of Orleans in Chartres and the CNP in France as scientific partners. But it all comes from our own lab. The research and then developing and then production, customization, and it's all about that melanin. Really amazing.

Well, first of all, can I just say that it's really rubbish that all those labs said those things to you. I mean, that is just unbelievable that in the 2020s, you're still hearing that nonsense out of people. But I think it's amazing that you used that and you channeled that into this entrepreneurial vision that you have who are listening and don't understand exactly what skin phototypes are. Could you give us a very brief overview and explain what skin phototypes 4, 5 and 6 are?

Yes, yeah. Phototypes are not yet mainstream terms and that's really a shame. If you have skin, you need to know about prototypes because it is so important. So an American dermatologist called Fitzpatrick, that's what we call the scale, the Fitzpatrick scale coined the term in the 70s. Skin phototypes, which basically is about your skin tone, is the melanin content in your skin, which is going to inform, is going to impact how your skin reacts to the sun, but also to cosmetic procedures like lasers, skincare ingredients and ingredient dosages. Very important that point. And so they are Fitzpatrick classified human beings into six different photo types. I know the scale is not perfect and it could definitely be improved and extended. And actually I think that Google teamed up with this American doctor called Dr. Monk to extend the scale up to 10 photo types, which is a lot more inclusive. So that's great. But we are staying with Fitzpatrick. And yes, we can say it's not perfect, but it has been so instrumental in advancing our understanding of skin. And so phototype 1, 2, 3 are essentially Caucasian skin, white skin. So a phototype 1, imagine someone very fair skin, right? They would have like red hair, very low level of melanin, they will always burn under the sun, never tan. A phototype 2, still a Caucasian person, they would have like blonde, really light hair, light eyes and they burn minimally, don't really tan. But obviously their ability to sustain the sun is a little bit better than the one. And then the three would be someone like yourself, you know, a brunette, light brown hair, brown hair, dark hair. And from phototype 4, this is really where we start seeing an increased expression of melanin. And the phototype 4 are very diverse set of population. They are people in the south of Europe that are phototype 4. Like if you go to the south of Italy, right, they are still white people, but they have this higher expression of melanin. Middle Easterners essentially, Phototype 4, Northern Africans, the whole Arab world, Latino skin, you know, non white Latinos and then mixed people, right? Black and white mix can still be phototype 4. My own sister is. She is very, very light, but has Afro hair and she doesn't tan as well as I do she's phototype 4. Phototype 5 would be then someone who has brown skin, really think Southeast Asians, a lot of African Afro descendants are also phototype 5 and they were tan always and almost never burned under the sun. Then phototype 6 would be people that are essentially African, although we do have some tribes in Pakistan and in India where people have these deep, deep skin tones and they are phototype 6 as well. So 1, 2, 3, white skin, 4, 5, 6. This is the global majority of the world. And so it's shocking that this proportion of the the world demographic is just still not included today in the skincare research and testing. So, yeah, this is what phototypes are. It's so important. I always tell my customers, know your phototype, then your skin type, and that's how you really build a good strategy for skin health.

Absolutely. And while you break it down so beautifully in your explanation, you can absolutely, absolutely see how just having six phototypes is totally inadequate. So it's good that there is some work to at least try and extend that, because as you're right, I mean, you can't lump the entire human population or the almost the entirety of the human population into three little categories. But talk to me, and this is a big question, but what sort of skin challenges do skin phototypes 4, 5 and 6 face? Because you're making formulations for those skin phototypes. So what challenges do they face?

Oh, my God. Where do we start? Where do we start? Often when people talk about the phototype 456, we go directly to hyperpigmentation, because, of course, melanin is the visible difference. And so people think, oh, yeah, you know, you have more melanin hyperpigmentation, which is very true for our customers. That's like 89% of the concern. So we're gonna, we're gonna get to that. But there are so many nuances. Obviously, we all have human skin. Right. There are a lot of similarities between all phototypes, but the differences in the 4, and specifically the 5 and 6, come first of all in the structure of the skin. So what we call the stratum corneum, which is the outer layer of the skin, is denser. Right. There's a whole debate going about the layer saying the white skin have 16 layers and darker skin tone will have more layers. Science is quite not agreeing on how many layers here. But the stratum corneum is denser, which, which is actually an amazing thing because it means that the skin is going to also have like, More collagen, more elastin participates in how we age as well. But the first challenge there starts with then how do we nourish all these layers, right. How do we make sure that hydration, the nutrients, essential vitamin, actually reach all the layers of the skin? And so dehydration, I always want to start with that. Dehydration, to me, is the mother of so many skin concerns when it comes to darker skin tones. Because if you have a darker skin tone, think of it, right? It kind of means that your ancestors evolved under a different climate, right? You're probably your genetic heritage. It's probably from a place that is super sunny, lots of sun energy, humidity, and your skin barrier is kind of set to work as a ventilation system. Right. We bring in the humidity that keeps the skin moisture, and we kick out the excess heat. Now, when you find yourself under a completely different climate. Yeah, right. Like London, for example, no sun energy, super cold, gets windy, your skin is, you know, your skin barrier is completely impaired. It doesn't know how to try under such a climate. And so this phenomenon called transepidermal loss kind of happen in a more intense way for darker skin tone. And this is because the skin just doesn't have the ability to retain the water that it can get from the atmosphere. So that's another challenge that's added to the dehydration problem. And then this sun energy also brings the problem of vitamin D deficiency. And our research and is showing there are obviously vitamin D, so many can cause a lot of problems when we are deficient. But there is a correlation there between vitamin D deficiency and dry skin. So dehydration is such a massive issue because essentially a skin that is not properly nourished is going to go through a huge list of, you know, deregulation. The skin is going to start producing oil as a defense mechanism to make up for the dryness. And when we have also darker skin tone, where we see that the darker skin tone produce more oil, the intercellular lipids is 15% higher in darker skin tones. And so we're producing sex oil from the dryness. That oil is going to block the pores that create inflammation, that leads to acne, that leads to inflammation. So we always start with nourish the skin because your skin is structured differently. Now, if we get to hyperpigmentation, which I think everyone let us know about hyperpigmentation, darker skin tones obviously have more melanin in their skin. We have these cells called the melanocytes. These are the cells that produce the Melanin pigment. Everyone has them in the same amount, but in darker skin tones. They are more robust, they are very active. They have a lot of work to do, produce this melanin that gives us the beautif that we have. And melanin is really a master, a master antioxidant, really. It's a genetic privilege that we have and we don't realize it. It's such a protector of us. And so any irritation, anything that antagonizes the skin is going to send a signal to the melanocyte and say, aggression, aggression, aggression. We need to protect the skin. And so the melanocyte will start overproducing melanin. Right. And that's why hyperpigmentation happen. Whereas in a white skin, this phenomenon may happen, but because the melanocyte are not set to produce this much melanin, you could have a little redness. And in a couple of days that is gone. I am going to have a dark spot. And the more the irritation stays, the darker the spot gets. And so this is why hyperpigmentation happened. And that's a massive difference. Which when you see how the industry approaches brightening or skincare in general, it's a non stop aggression to the skin, you know, day and night, every day. And so inflammation is at the center of this massive issue. And this is something that we don't talk about enough to tell people with darker skin tone that if you have a melanin red skin, the first thing that you need to eliminate is in your life is inflammation, because that's how your hyperpigmentation mainly happens.

Wow. I mean, there's obviously like several hours of podcast here and we can go.

On, there is so many others, but let's just keep to these two. If you are a listener out there and you have darker skin tones, if you can get your hydration optimized and really know about inflammation being at the center of you having hyperpigmentation, I think you're all, you're already off to a great start to get to a better path of skin health. Yeah.

I love how passionate you are. You said at the beginning you're so passionate about skin and health and cosmetics. I absolutely love this. Well, let's go back to the skin tone research lab. How does it actually work in practice and how are you using that information to create formulations?

I think it's essential here to talk about who my two co founders are, obviously. So one of my co founders called Dr. Carlos A. Charles, he's an American dermatologist who spent his entire life, 20 plus years, treating darker skin tones inside and out. And so his input in terms of what he sees in his practice every day, what are the struggle, how the skin reacts, and then his scientific knowledge is an amazing input in, into our research and our formulation. And my other co founder is Dr. Iman Joby. She's a doctor in pharmacy. But Imene is so much more than that. She's an ethnobotanist. And so her vast knowledge of plants, and specifically plants that are generated in the same climate that phenotypically generated darker skin tone, is amazing. And she's a great formulator, expert in biocompatible formulations. And so there's already a lot of knowledge from them that we embed in everything that we do. And so I can give you an example of like a process of us creating a skincare formula, how that really happens. Yeah.

How does the skin tone research lab fits into that? Because you've created it and you've created four, five, six skin. So how do the two things work together?

Absolutely. All together. They come from the same place. When we have the research, usually we start from the skin. We look at the differences in the structure, the function, and then we say, this is the right philosophy, let's say, to create hyperpigmentation serum based on the functional and structural differences of darker skin tones. This is the strategy. Right from that strategy, we're then going to design a formula, and this formula is going to be exactly aligned with the differences that we have identified. And. And then the sourcing of ingredient and raw material comes after that. And then we start the whole formulation and then testing on darker skin tones, because this is such a big challenge for us as well. When we get to the testing part where most testing companies wouldn't have samples of 4, 5 and 6, it would be 1, 2, 3. A lot of the legal testing are still calibrated on white skin. So sometimes we have to go through the process as it exists, and then we have to organize another internal process where we're actually testing on darker skin tones. But this is essentially how it works. So we know all of this about hyperpigmentation. We create the philosophy for a brightening serum. And then we're going to say, okay, this is a melanin, and there are different pathways to melanin production. And we know there's two types of melanin. There's the eumelanin, there's the pheomelanin, and we know this thing about inflammation, and we know this thing about hydration, the formula is going to really position itself in a way that addresses all of this research. And so from the water that we use, we're going to say, okay, this is, we're using vitalized water so that we can better transport the nutrients all the way to the skin layers. We going to create a foundation for this formula that has a lot of anti inflammatories, a lot of really like deeply nice nourishing ingredients. We're going to create a preservation system that doesn't include anything that can antagonize the skin or the endocrine system or the hormones. Because we know that this is a massive issue for darker skin tones in black women specifically as well. Then we get to the active part, which is, you know, our industry really loves running with active. But I always say if the body of your formula, which is 80, sometimes 90% of your formula is rubbish, you can use the best molecules patented. Great innovation. It's still a great molecule sitting on a body of the formula that doesn't make sense for the skin. And so when we get to that top part, it's really about having a super smart approach about, yes, the ingredient that we use, but the dosages, because we want to create efficacy, but we never want to wake up the melanocyte because that's going to create inflammation. And so it's like this tiptoeing around the concerns, but without ever antagonizing the skin in a way that what we're doing would backfire on the skin. So this is really how we implement this research into the lab and then it goes to your raw materials. Yes, we know that these are the raw materials that we want to use. For example, our serum. When we started creating the serum, obviously vitamin C is like a massive ingredient. Everyone loves it. So we reincorporated vitamin C and when we were doing the testing, we realized that, wait, vitamin C, great. But if we use it over 3%, this starts to create this little inflammation.

Right.

And we can see it after like two weeks of use. So what happens after a month, two months. But then if we lower the concentration, it doesn't produce any results. And so we were like, all right, different strategy. We are going to use a variety of brightening, what we call the melanin inhibitors, actives at a lower percentage so that we can get a better efficacy and having this ingredient that kind of boost each other. And so we went out there, we're like, what are the other actives that do a great job with hyperpigmentation and then you stumble upon hydroquinone, top of the list, hydroquinone. And then there's research telling you hydroquinone well be cautioned, is banned in Europe over the counter for reasons like this can be very detrimental to the skin into your organs. There's a big debate about it out there. But over here at 456 it's a no hydroquinone zone. And so we carried on researching are there any alternatives out there? And this is why man is amazing. There must be an alternative. Let's look at Exyl rosucinol and we started researching. This is great. Same kind of efficacy that hydroquinone can give but without the side effects. We are then combining that with the likes of glutathione alpha arbutin. Again dosage here very important with alpha arbutin because it can go on the other side really quick. And then we look at yes, vitamin C, but what kind of vitamin C? Let's look at Acerola because this one is you know, just like an increased view availability and that's really how we work. And then we're going to combine with bio salicylates because we see salicylic acid good. But also that inflammatory response can be triggered. And yeah, that's how we work. And we check at every stage that what we do, the way we combine ingredient, the concentrations, it's always going to be to the benefit of the skin and that we're not creating something that feels good today but that's going to create some type of reaction later. Because this is really what women of color go through. Looks, feels good, gives efficacy today, but three months later the hyperpigmentation is still there or even coming back with a bigger revenge.

I love the thought process that goes through this. It's so meticulous, so considered and so focused with the end goal in mind, which is of course the main, most important thing. Quick question, how many products do you sell at the moment?

We've got, we have eight products. So yeah, we have eight cues which yeah, we can call them product now because we just recently created a retail line. Right. We started as a customized brand and for three years that's all we did, just customize skincare. People would go onto our website and they would fill in a skin diagnosis and from this diagnosis we would then use the. We have a master formula. That's how we call the 456 master formula which really encapsulates all of our research from like the water. What are the agents that we're using to create texture. And this is also why we're like, we can't go the plastics, silicones, carbon ester out, because that is an aggression for darker skin tones too. And to any skin. I'm saying it now with a lot more confidence, like we should live in a skincare world that does not include plastics. Full stuff.

I can completely agree with you, I have to say that. But maybe that's another podcast episode.

I digress. That's a little point. But then the preservation system, same strategy, nothing that can interfere with the hormones, endocrine system. And this is really our master formula. And then we created this customization complexes. And so we created complexes for hyperpigmentation, for acne, for dehydration, for dull skin, et cetera, et cetera. And so when we receive a customer's skin diagnosis with their order, we would choose the master formula and then say we're going with these complexes at this concentration because this person is telling us this and this information about themselves. And then they could choose fragrance, no fragrance. You know, that was another option. And that's how we have been learning about our products efficacy on the skin. And we've been improving and iterating. And from that we have eight products that can go into retail and they're amazing.

Many of our listeners will be browsing over to your website shortly at the end of this podcast, of course, because they've got to listen to the whole thing first.

Yeah, you guys listen to the whole thing.

One big final question I have for you is around inclusivity. So what does inclusivity mean to you in relation to your skin care that you're making your big mission? What does it mean to you?

Oh, that's a big question. It's a question that is. It's so emotional for me, I guess, just because I'm a woman of color. I'm someone who was born in a different world and I grew up in this world where obviously being black means there's just so many layers to that. And access to equal opportunities, just like equity in general, is often a challenge. And so this term, inclusivity, inclusivity, it's very dear to my heart. But I have a bittersweet feeling about how inclusivity is really portrayed in today's world. It's like the spotlight is thrown on some long standing industry issue. It's commendable that we're actually having this conversation today. And I almost feel grateful, which I shouldn't, because we're like, things should be this way. But I feel so happy that we're having these conversations, but the term, for me, it's just been a sporadic use as a, as a PR tool really, rather than it being an earnest mission. And so for me, it's been like a waste of awareness that so many people, you know, there are people that have been fighting on these issues for decades. And now that we have this awareness, we're just not making the best use of it. A lot of it is marketing driven. It's for performance. And it is a shame for me, real inclusivity, it's not just about like, I'm going to deepen the foundation shade in my range or just showcasing diverse models in your campaign. I mean, that's good. Keep doing that. That's good. We need to see ourselves out there. Don't stop doing it. You know, it's something. But it's really about genuinely integrating the diverse needs and experiences and stories of your audience into every facet of your brand. You know, from ideation to how you manufacture product to marketing. It has to be the entire process. And the process needs to go beyond brands. It's the industry that needs to really approach this in the same manner is academia is the regulation, it is the raw manufacturers, the raw material manufacturers. It is an entire system that really needs to integrate what inclusivity means. And it's really for me, about having empathy. I think it goes before going really, really deep. It's about having empathy for your potential customers and just using that understanding as the foundation of every decision that you make. And I know it's very complicated for the big conglomerates to change anything because bureaucracy, they're mastodons. But this is the path that we need to be taking to even get there. So for me, it has to be deeply rooted in genuine empathy. When there's a shortfall in inclusivity, especially towards women of color, it's often a hint of a deeper absence of that, of that very empathy is. I don't get your issues, I don't want to understand you. And if I don't want to understand you, how can I possibly create something that works for you? And so away from brands, away from products, I think there is an empathy thing and that's what probably needs to be fixed first so that we can have this 360 shift that needs to happen with the industry and the regulation at large.

I completely agree that there needs to be so much change, but you're driving forward a lot of that change. Inclusivity in terms of empathy, as you say, but also scientific inclusivity. Which is something you talked to me about, empathy, which I thought was a great point to raise it. Is there any more you could say about that, please?

Yeah, for me, that's exactly what I say that empathy is. If I understand you, then I'm going to study you and I'm going to want to get to the right root cause of why you're having the issues that you're having. So I am automatically going to end up off on who are you? What is your physiology? What is the function? What are the nuances in you that I may not have as the mainstream industry and what I'm going to do? What are the changes that I'm going to set forth? What are the new processes that I'm going to set forth to integrate you in my process? And so yes, I often use this term that the only real kind of inclusivity is scientific inclusivity because it really puts the person, the human, at the center of everything. And right now I just don't see it happening.

But it is happening with you. And Noeli, you're an inspiration. It's absolutely wonderful to interview you on this podcast and I've absolutely loved talking to you today.

Thank you so much for having me this morning.

About 456 skin, about everything you do. Where can they find you?

Yes, Instagram. You can go to this little place called Instagram. We have an account there. It's 456k. Our website is open in all the Europe in the UK. The UK is actually our first market. 456k.com I am on LinkedIn. I'm always doing my best to stay very close to the ground and close to people. And so if you are listening to this and you have any question, really don't hesitate to send a message from the website on Instagram. Always happy to have a conversation with anyone who is interested about this and.

We will include all those links with the show notes. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun. Bye bye.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this episode. How can we start to represent skin phototypes 4, 5 and 6 in beauty? How do we bring scientific inclusivity to the cosmetics industry? Tell me what you think. Leave us a comment on our social channels as both the Formula Botanica team and I love hearing from you and if you want to hear more about some of the topics we talked about today, please do delve back into the podcast archives. Go and listen to episode 101 in which I interviewed Deja Ayedeli on why Black skin care matters. Deja touched on many of the same issues that Noeli discussed today, and I loved that interview with her. Or episode 153 in which I interviewed Ekwi Chukwuji Nene about her story of starting a successful hair care brand after executives in the mainstream beauty industry told her that black women will buy anything they sell them. Isn't that awful? There's a wealth of information in our old episodes and I do encourage you to go back and listen to them. So thank you for joining Noeli and I for this latest episode of Green Beauty Conversations. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, please do leave us a five star review so that other people can enjoy these conversations too. Make sure you you subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or whatever your favorite podcast app is and stay tuned for the next episode. Follow Formula Botanica Formula Botanica on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Pinterest, Tik Tok, Twitter or LinkedIn. We are everywhere and come and give me a follow at Lorraine Dharmeyer on Instagram. Visit our website@formulabotanica.com and sign up for our free online formulation course today. Sam.