EP225. Can cosmetic packaging be sustainable?

There must be thousands of different types of cosmetic packaging in the world, and as we know, many of them, most of them are made of plastics. But what are those plastics? What are the materials used to make them? Which ones can actually be recycled? Which recycling facilities can actually handle them? And then my personal favorite question, what do all the acronyms mean? So imagine my delight when a cosmetic packaging designer reached out and said, hey, I'd love to come and talk on the podcast. And I leapt at the opportunity because, let's face it, this subject is a minefield and you could most likely spend a lifetime trying to understand each component of each packaging type. And furthermore, the sustainability question looms large over everything to do with packaging. You can't have missed the statistics thrown around about the beauty industry creating over 120 billion units of packaging per year. And according to the World economic forum, approximately 36% of all plastic produced worldwide is used to create packaging. And 80%, 85% of that ends up in landfills. That is staggering. So the beauty industry and its packaging is very, very, very far from anything remotely resembling sustainability. And this is a fascinating topic, which is why I want to delve into how packaging is made in a bit more detail today. So join me and Alexander Kwapis of Fusion PKG as we unpack, pun intended, the sustainability of cosmetic packaging. Welcome to Green Beauty Conversations in which I challenge the beauty industry to become more sustainable, champion, independent and green beauty and encourage you to join me in changing the beauty industry for the better. I'm your host, Lorraine Dallmayr. I'm a chartered environmentalist, biologist and the CEO of award winning online organic cosmetic formulation school Formula Botanica. We have tens of thousands of students in over 190 countries around the world who study with us to become organic beauty formulators and entrepreneurs. Visit our website@formulabotanica.com to try our free online formulation course. And if you want to be the first person to know what's happening in green beauty, make sure you subscribe to this podcast now in your favorite podcast app. So in today's episode I'm joined by Alexander Kwapis, Vice president at Fusion EKG, an Aptar beauty brand. With over 18 years of product design and development expertise. Fusion PKG helps beauty brands stay ahead of the curve in an increasingly fast evolving industry. They create innovative packaging and product solutions through an established presence with headquarters in Dallas, sales and design offices in New York and la, and operations in New Jersey, China and Mexico, including renowned in house manufacturing facilities, packaging testing labs and a formulation Laboratory at Fusion pkg. Alexander champions cutting edge practices and materials aimed at reducing their environmental impact and giving a variety of sustainable options to their customers. Alexander's ultimate goal, in his words, is to inspire a future where design, innovation and sustainability coexist in perfect harmony. Hi Alexander, how are you doing today?

I'm doing very well, thank you. How are you?

I'm good and I'm really interested in what we're going to talk about today. So let's start at the top. Talk me through the company you work for. What do you guys do? What do you do there? Tell me everything.

Fusion Packaging, we're in the skincare and complexion market in cosmetics, really focused on high end dispensing packaging for our customers in mostly North America. But really we work with global brands all across the world. And for myself I'm overall new innovation as well as sustainability and design. So anything that's new that's coming out of our company, I'm part of.

Right. So give me a picture of how big this is because I think it's pretty big, isn't it?

Yeah, we kind of touch many of the cosmetic brands that you know and love today. So we do a lot of projects with the Shiseido brands. Drunk Elephant is a big customer of ours that we have really been with them almost from the beginning and, and really have helped them create a lot of their products as well as, you know, brands within the Estee Lauder portfolio. So like the Tom Fords and the Bobby Browns and Cliniques and things like that as well. And then even your more very closer to more of an indie brand, maybe like a Road Skin Rare Beauty and then even those mini brands that really have more of a, maybe a medium to global presence like Super Gloops, Glow Recipes, some of these other sort of disruptor brands as well.

Wow, amazing. So you have an enormous spread. Well, let me get this question out the way then because I know I'm going to have a lot of listeners ask me this, so I may as well ask you up front. What sort of minimum order quantities do you work with?

So at Fusion Packaging, because of all the services that we provide as part of the projects that we work on, we have a 10,000 piece minimum order quantity. So it is of a customer that is maybe has gotten started already. They kind of have some items in the market, they're seeing success and now they really need to grow and expand. That is usually our sort of the first time you might start talking to us.

Awesome. And I totally get it. And some of the people listening today may not be able to handle that yet. But we're going to delve into how packaging works, how you create it, and everyone can be inspired by this. So this is going to be a fascinating conversation. So Fusion packaging, from what I understand, and please correct me if I'm Wrong, has over 100 different types of packaging which you guys design yourself. Is that right?

Yeah, we have many more than that. We have over 100 different packages that are sustainable, actually, that we worked on over five years now to really move the needle on bringing more sustainable packages to the market. But we actually, you know, because when you make molds, right, you have then this legacy of a lot of old packages. We have been moving away from those older materials that are not as sustainable. So we do have sort of a large portfolio. And more and more we're kind of moving towards a more more sustainable, more refined product line.

Okay, wow, 100 is a lot. But it sounds like there's even more than that. So you said they're sustainable. What does that mean to you guys?

For us, we want to make sure that we're using materials that can be recycled. So those materials usually are. That we focus on because of the interaction, the compatibility with the package and the formula. Those are usually polypropylene. So ppe, you might see number five, if you're looking at that little triangle as well as pet, is another big one, because it's got good clarity, it's nice, can have like nice thick walls and very recyclable. It's number one in the. In the recycling stream. And then you a little bit with pes. So like your HDP milk jug, maybe, or your LDP like a tube. And so the reason why we use those materials is because those materials are recyclable in themselves and they have good compatibility depending on the different formulas you're using them for. So that's kind of step one in our sort of sustainable philosophy. Step two is then we really try to make sure we're using a lot of pcr. So we've really worked hard with our manufacturing processes to have high percentages of pcr. So in mechanical recycling, where you may be at home, you use a product, you put it in the bin, and then someone takes it and recycles it from the curbside. There's a limited number of items that can be recycled that way. And we really work hard to work with the resin suppliers to filter out the material to get a really pure version of that recycled resin. And then we clean it. We sort it, we wash it and then we reprocess it as a recycled material again those PPs, PEs and PETs. So those, that's kind of why we started with those materials in the first place. Then we can use a lot of times 100% of that PCR in the package over and over again, which is not easy to do because it does process different, differently when you mold it. It does mold differently than a first time resin pulled out of oil and made into, made into plastic. So we really are really trying to reduce that carbon footprint. We've actually doubled our PCR usage last year to this year. So we're really making a commitment and our customers are following along because of this hard work that we're doing. So that's really nice. On top of that, really trying to make sure that we're making packages that can be recycled. Right. So it's the upfront thing is let's make sure that we're doing everything we can to lower our footprint because know if you as a consumer is going to recycle, but we want to make sure that we're doing everything we possibly can to make it so that those items then can be recycled. And a lot of times of course these, there's these material conversations, but also we are doing things because we're a dispensing company. So you know, things that have like a pump engine that you're pumping product out into your hand, maybe your foundation, maybe your skincare, those things usually have a metal spring inside that pump engine which is not recyclable. And so we've actually worked to make a fully plastic pump engine that works really well. So you don't have a sort of poor user experience and you can still recycle it. That's kind of the holy grail, I would say of what we've been working on. And that's those over 100 packages that we have that are fully recycled in what I just laid out.

Amazing. Wow. I have so many questions. It's hard to know where even to start. I just. For anyone listening, PCR obviously is post consumer recycled plastic. So it's gone through the recycling process once. One thing you said was quite interesting. It's harder to mold PCR plastic. Why is that?

Because when you mold a plastic one time, the molecules line up in that, that original shape that it was in, maybe a yogurt cup. Right. And so then when you take it and you wash that yogurt cup and you shred it up to little pieces and you reheat it up into little pellets, and then you then inject it into the mold. It has some memory of that past life. And so it's something that you have to make sure that you are doing some processing to make sure that it's cutting away those old ties to the previous shape so that when you then mold it, you can have sort of a more uniform in the new shape without large tolerances. So tolerances is like, sometimes something might be too small, and another item might mold a little too big, and we try to really keep that very consistent, and that's harder to do with recycled resins.

Okay, I get it. Wow. It's a fascinating process. One thing, I mean, obviously there are many different types of materials that you can use in cosmetic packaging, and we are blinded by acronyms. We've already had a few of them even in the last five minutes. Right. I mean, it's acronyms city here. It must feel really overwhelming for someone who's first starting out. What would you recommend to someone starting a beauty brand when they're first choosing packaging and they. They sit back and they're like, what are all these pets and PPEs and PEs and what. What does this mean? Where would you start if you were recommending this to someone?

It is a hard thing to understand because they're. Originally, there's been so many different plastics made for different functions, and now we're trying to step back and say, what can we kind of consolidate, make it simpler. I'd really want a new brand to try to keep things really simple. Polypropylene bottles, PET bottles, LDP tubes, things like that that are really kind of those 1 through 5. If you're looking at the, like, the recycling symbols in the United States, I think those type of, you know, materials, because they're more widely recycled, is easier to make sure that your package can have. Then PC can have recycled resin in it, pcr, or that it could potentially be recycled. The more simple you can keep it, the better, but it is harder to do. It's an interesting design challenge because designers love to make, you know, maybe thick wall materials, clear materials, packages with metallization that, you know, that silver, maybe a color metallic effect to it. Those things make it hard for both recycling. It also can add more price to it, but also makes your package feel more unique or more special. I would say working with a company, no matter who the company is, to really work with them, to understand what are your needs, what are the material, the formula that you're putting in it, because the formula plays a Big role in it. And then what are you kind of, what is the experience you're trying to have and what are your sustainable goals is really important. There's a lot of different. There's not a magic bullet in being sustainable. And so it's really what's the journey that you're on right now and then working with that company to kind of help you get there in packaging.

Yeah, I get it. I mean, you've only really talked about plastic so far. Do you guys work with aluminum? Aluminum, glass, paperboard, anything like that?

Yeah, we do glass and metal and paper. We do, yes. So like papers a lot of times are more like maybe a paper compact, maybe a beauty stick or like a lip balm or something like that usually go into paper. For us, metal might be. Historically we used to do a lot of like overshells, little like a metal overshaw on like a collar or something like that. And because of recyclability, having the metal plus plastic, it's actually difficult to recycle when you have the metal with plastic. And so more and more people are moving away from having over shells and things of that nature. But there are things like metal jars, metal tubes that can be recycled. So those actually are really great. And metal can be infinitely recycled. Glass can be infinitely recycled, especially glass. That's clear now. What gets harder with anything in the cosmetic industry is adding colors to it. Decoration to tends to. It's still recyclable in theory, but it makes it less valuable to be recycled. So that's the difficulty there. And I think with most packages, like a foundation or skincare product that's being pumped, most of our customers are looking at either like all plastic packages or a plastic glass package.

Understood. I'm going to have to ask this question. Can plastic packaging ever really truly be sustainable though, given the terrible recycling rates worldwide?

I think today it's not great. I think also what we're seeing is there's companies that are creating chemical recycled or like molecularly recycled plastics. And so what they actually do is they're able to take that plastic and break it down to the base molecules and then build it back up. Remember, we don't pull plastic out of the ground as is. Right. It's something else. And then we make it. So the nice thing about this new chemical or molecular recycled plastic is that you can infinitely recycle plastic then, so it can have any color, it can have any decoration. In fact, there's companies like Eastman Kodak, you might know, you know, a long time ago from your Kodak cameras and stuff. They kind of split off. And there's Eastman and Kodak separate. Eastman company is really specializes in polyesters, which is the most popular material in the world for clothing as well as it's the same material that's being used pets like water bottles and things like that. And they can actually take carpet, which is usually polyester and they, with all those colors and all those glues and stuff. And they can actually take those things that are landfill bound that aren't being recycled today. And they can actually recycle those things all the way down to a. Then clear, like it could become a clear bottle, which is a really amazing technology. The same thing is in the works with a lot of different companies with polypropylene because those are very popular rigid plastics. And so the beauty of it is that today in some materials and in the near future in others, mechanical recycling will be kind of a thing of the past and the molecular recycling will take over, which will allow plastics to forever be recycled. Not having to get new plastics out of the ground. Yes, that's a really amazing future, would.

Be a very good thing. Obviously we are quite a long way away from that. And in the meantime, obviously the beauty industry is churning out, well, billions of units of packaging each year, which do contribute to the problem. I recently recorded a podcast on the fact that cosmetics packaging companies are even greenwashing a little bit by confusing the terms recyclability with circularity. There's obviously a big challenge around the sustainability claims. How do you think we can improve the sustainability claims of packaging?

I think education, I think that's the biggest thing is just talking about this and having alignment with what we should and shouldn't be saying. At Fusion, we don't say things like eco friendly, we don't say those type of words. We really try to, to make sure that we're not greenwashing. We really try to be very open with our customers about how recyclable their packages are so that then when they're giving the sort of marketing details to people, they also can then share a lot. I think too, it is also really hard. It is a really complex thing. And so I think people, you know, even brands are on a journey of trying to understand and trying to make their products accessible to people. And I think it does, you know, the government doesn't make it easy. In the United States. We don't actually. We have a big problem in, in the recycling system itself in that it's not really set up for beauty. It's Set up for larger items like food and beverage and maybe like maybe a hair shampoo type bottle, those larger type bottles and things, a lipstick, let's say that's very small and slender, will not get recycled, no matter how sustainable it is. Because the United States, we have this grid in the recycling system. All recyclers have this grid and they smash plastic and then glass is supposed to go through the grid and plastic that's bigger, like a big bottle is supposed to kind of go over the grid. And so all of our cosmetic products have a difficult time if they're under this 2 inch by 2 inch grid. Imagine like a bunch of 2 inch holes, like a sewer grate or something. They have a hard time getting over that, that grid system. And so there are thoughts of how can they recapture that. Anything that does fall into another sort of basically sorting out glass front, because it also impacts the glass recycling. Because now you got small, maybe like a water bottle cap. That's why now a lot of companies say, hey, keep your water bottle cap on your pet bottle, right? So that it kind of helps make the package overall larger. If you just had that little cap, it's probably not getting recycled. And so that is a big limitation for you as a consumer. You can do everything right. You can sort it perfectly. But because of the size, it might not get recycled.

No, I get it. Can we then really truly call some of those packaging materials sustainable in the first place?

I think it's difficult. That's why a lot of brands are working with companies like in North America, we have the Pack Collective. They are starting to kind of drop into Ultas and Sephoras. And that allows the consumer then to take back the products directly to that store. Some brands do that as well, I think. Like, I think Origins has done that for a long time where they take back caps and things like that. So that's a great way of, as a brand to kind of find a solution because of the size of their product. Unfortunately, curbside recycling does really limit the ability of recycling smaller things. And what we find is a lot of customers, you know, a lot of the brands that we're working with, our customers, they can't one, guarantee that you as a consumer are going, you know, that you are going to recycle. And then two, because of the size, it might not be able to be recycled. And so what they try to do more and more is add pcr, add recycled content into the package to lower that, at least the initial footprint of it. So they're not using as Much new plastics. So that's a nice, nice offset that they're trying to do.

You must be watching the class action lawsuit against Toms of Maine with great interest at the moment, because of course they've got this lawsuit against them. I recently recorded a podcast episode on this, actually, because they claimed that their hdpe, their packaging, which I think was a toothpaste tube, was recyclable. And basically the lawsuit is basically saying it may well be recyclable, but we just don't have the infrastructure for it. I wonder if that will open the floodgates for more class action lawsuits. Potentially.

I think it is a problem. I mean, tubes are a good example where historically tubes. The majority of what goes in a tube is usually toothpaste. Right. And toothpaste usually has actually a thin layer of aluminum inside there to help keep the purity of the toothpaste. You probably don't know unless you cut a toothpaste in half, you might not even know that there's aluminum inside there. And so the same problem happens for the recyclers. They just say no to all tubes because they don't know if there's aluminum inside. Which again, like I was saying earlier, aluminum and plastic don't really work well together for recycling. And so, yeah, it's one of those things where I see a lot of brands saying recycle ready because they're ready for when the recycling system is there. It is a little confusing though, because it's not there.

I'm not sure I like that term at all. Recycle ready for the future when we have better infrastructure. Oh yeah, that one potentially has lawsuit written all over it as well, to be perfectly honest.

Yes. And then the other difficulty is, is let's say toms. Toms might be selling globally and then everyone in different regions has different recycle rates, different take back programs. It is a really big problem that is really difficult for global brands, but equally hard for everyone.

Yeah. I wonder if the beauty industry is expecting too much from the infrastructure around us. Potentially. One question I have for you is, do you guys work at all with any refillable packaging? Typ.

We do actually. We have a lot of refillable packages. We have like refillable lipsticks, refillable airless bottles, compacts, a lot of jars, things like that.

Does that mean that the, the outer casing remains the same and then there's like a refillable cartridge that goes in?

Yeah, there's a few different options. So there's some that you take a whole New bottle and you like reuse the pump engine. So that technology part, you're keeping some. If you're maybe a luxury brand and you want to have more decoration or materials that you know again maybe like aluminum and things like that that aren't that are really recycled. Well, with those polypropylene parts, for instance, they might have it so that you keep an outer part and then you're sort of inserting like an inner cartridge to it. So think of like, I don't know, putting a cartridge of ink into your printer. Right. And you just replace that printer ink instead of the whole printer. That's that more of that mentality. It kind of depends on the technology and the level of. Of refillable that the brand wants to have.

Yeah, I get it. Can you really call packaging refillable if it does contain a cartridge that's meant for recycling or.

I think the best option is to have a thinner package that you use and then maybe it's larger volume so you're not using as many of those packages. It is interesting that the industry calls refills both something that maybe it's a whole new bottle and you use sort of the pump engine and the cap and things like that, as well as a system where you're kind of inserting a cartridge. It's more of a cartridge refill instead of a full package refill.

Yeah, potentially there's a massive issue there as well with consumer understanding and co opting certain terminology that might be confusing, potentially even contributing to greenwashing. It's a minefield by the sounds of things. And you guys must continuously be sat there going, how do we navigate this terminology? How do we navigate these claims? It must be difficult.

A lot of it is. It is very difficult. And a lot of it is trying to align with group think and really trying to understand what is everyone trying, what are the concerns everyone has, how do we kind of address those? How do we make sure that we're moving ahead of issues? We partner with companies like the Alan MacArthur Foundation. It's a really great sustainable foundation that we actually use and benchmark off of as sort of goals that we're working towards as well to make sure that we have someone else that's helping us sort of understand this complex landscape.

Yeah, I totally get it. Well, talk me through the sort of mad scientist approach behind the scenes. When you guys are designing new packaging. How does the creative process work from start to finish where you dream up something that's potentially even entirely new?

Yeah, I mean, so you know, a New project can come different ways. It can come from us saying we want to make an existing item more sustainable. Right? And then we'll start working on that. It could also come from us looking at the end consumer and seeing what their experience is and how can we improve their experience. And we'll do testing in house, we'll get existing products on the market, we'll do testing with those to kind of benchmark what is the current experience. And then we'll really start to dream up and break down the experience of the consumer and start to design and innovate around and improve the experience through that process. We'll create prototypes, we'll create sketches and all sorts of diagrams and really trying to map out how can we improve this overall process. We don't look at just the end consumer. We also look at how can we help the brand. So making sure that there's ample decoration, space or the space in the back for all the information you need to have, how do you make sure that you have maybe modularity in the packages? A lot of times we make our own packages. We call them stock products, and that way it makes it easier for brands to launch, you know, that package. They don't have to make a custom tool themselves. They can kind of look at our catalog and then say, okay, I want this bottle and I want this actuator and I want that cap. So we really try to think through not just the end consumer, also the brand, also the filler. We try to make sure that it's easy to fill so that you as a brand then don't have to spend as much. So then the consumer doesn't have to have as high of a price point. So there's a lot of stakeholders involved that we really kind of try to make sure that we're accounting for.

Sounds very creative with lots of moving parts. Are there any types of materials that you think beauty brands should avoid in their packaging?

100%, I would say avoid. Ask if you're working with a supplier and you want to make sure that you're using. You don't want to be using materials that are not sustainable. I would ask if there's Palm PLM in the package. I would ask if there's abs. This one is actually on its way of being potentially banned in France. And so there's a lot of companies, a lot of big global brands that are moving away from abs.

What, what are these materials? Sorry, I have no idea what they are.

Palm is a material that a lot of times is in a pump engine. So In a spray pump or in a lotion pump. And it's. It's also. A lot of times it's also in lipsticks actually, too. And it's a. It's sort of very smooth, very slick, and allows for that nice action that. That sort of smooth action that you have of, let's say, a lipstick moving up and down. More and more companies such as us and others are moving away from those materials, such as palm in lipsticks, to more things like polypropylene. Like I was mentioning earlier, ABS is a material. If you have a compact in your purse, it is probably made of abs. ABS is also used a lot of times on cars historically. It has really nice surface finish, so you have no sort of denting or sort of surface imperfections. It can metalize or have a spray effect to it. Really nice. It's a beautiful material in that sense. But it has styrene in it. And so a lot of companies are trying to move away from styrene. And so instead people are using pets and polypropylenes as a replacement for. For the ABS material.

Why are they moving away from styrenes?

Because there are companies that are claiming that, well, one, they're not recyclable, so they could be recycled, but they're globally. They're not really a recycled material. And then also there's governments that are banning it because of the effect of the styrene, I think, on humans, even though that they can pass FDA regulations that there's a sense that it should not be in contact with food or sort of adjacent things like cosmetics.

That sounds lovely. That's what we all want in our compacts and lipstick tubes. My goodness, it's such a minefield. Honestly, what types of packaging do you see most companies, most beauty brands ask for? What's the most popular kind that you see at the moment?

The most popular packaging, I would say, is a 30ml bottle, I think is just the workhorse of the industry. So a bottle with a pump on it, maybe a cap that's flush, that sort of attaches to the bottle, that is a. And it could be airless. So maybe for those that don't know, airless is a package that has like a. Has like almost like a piston, like you would see us in a syringe. And as you pump the product, it sort of draws that. That piston up. You might have seen that in your package before. Those are really beautiful packages because you get almost 100% of the formula out. There might be some kind of stuck in the nooks and crannies versus if you have a what we call an atmospheric bottle. So the bottle that has like a dip tube, soap bottles and foundation bottles have that dip tube. They look really beautiful a lot of time, you know, glass bottles and things like that. But you might be leaving about 20% of the formula sitting in the. In the package. Right. I'm sure a lot of women have had the experience of unthreading the bottle and shaking the product out. Right?

Yes. We've all been there. And it's really annoying. Yeah.

Those are atmospheric bottles, and it's because of that little straw, it just can't pick all the formula up. It's just hard. And so some brands are moving away from that over to the airless packages, because then the consumers get more of that exp. Of the package.

I totally get it. So you guys must have a lot of variations on the 30ml bottle then, by the sounds of things.

Yeah, we do. You know, tall ones, short ones, wide ones, thin ones. Yes, a lot.

Yes. Final question. What's your favorite part of designing packaging for the beauty industry?

Oh, my favorite part, I think, you know, sitting down with a customer that has really big ideas and is not technical. It happens all the time. And there's no. There's nothing wrong with it. You know, they have this really imaginative solution that they're looking for, and then us working with them on bringing that idea to life. I really love that process. Week in, week out, us, you know, first understanding the problem, then designing things, showing them those concepts, seeing the delight in the idea, and then continuing all the way until we make it. It's a beautiful process.

Awesome. Well, Alexander, thank you very much for joining me on the podcast today. It's been really interesting talking to you. Thank you for sitting through all my questions about sustainability. Where can people find out more about you and About Fusion?

Fusion. WW fusionpkg.com awesome.

We will include that link with the show notes. And yes, good luck with all the designs. I look forward to finding out more. And I also look forward to the infrastructure hopefully improving in the coming years so that we can actually recycle some of these materials. Lovely to have you on the podcast.

Thank you.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this episode. So how do you feel about plastics being referred to as sustainable? And how do you navigate the sea of acronyms in the plastic packaging world? Leave us a comment on our social channels as both the Formula Botanica team and I love hearing from you. And if you want to hear more about some of the topics we covered today, please do delve back into the podcast archives. Some great Examples include episode 212, in which I talk about the way that the beauty industry confuses circularity and recyclability, thereby contributing to the industry's ongoing massive greenwashing problem. Or episode 220, which I referenced earlier in the episode in which I took a close look at the greenwashing lawsuit that's currently ongoing against Colgate Palmolive for their Toms of Maine toothpaste in the US or episode 125. We're going back a couple of years here in which I interviewed Joe Chidley of Reposit, the returnable packaging platform. Jo is amazing and doing fantastic work. There's a wealth of information in our old episodes and I do encourage you to go back and listen to them. So thank you for joining Alexander and I for this latest episode of Green Beauty Conversations. I really hope you enjoyed it. If you did, please do leave us a five star review so that other people can enjoy these conversations too. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or whatever your favorite podcast app is, and stay tuned for the next episode. Follow Formula Botanic at Formula Botanica on on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Twitter, Pinterest or LinkedIn. We are everywhere and come and give me a follow hereayndarnaya on Instagram and LinkedIn. Visit our website@formulabotanica.com and sign up for our free online formulation course today.