EP231. Is the beauty industry failing biodiversity?

Back in the early 2000s, world leaders recognized that biodiversity loss was just as important as the decarbonisation of our societies. After all, our biological diversity, otherwise known as biodiversity, is the variety of life on Earth. It's taken four and a half billion years of evolution to generate this amazing, beautiful, mind blowing, awe inspiring diversity that's all around us. So when governments of the world came together to discuss biodiversity, they agreed to halt the rate of biodiversity loss by 2010. Although, truthfully, I think none of them really had a clue as to how they were actually going to achieve this. Well, fast forward to today and that target, sadly, wasn't achieved. Up to 1 million species are now threatened with extinction worldwide and irreplaceable ecosystems and habitats are being destroyed or totally changed. And it's fairly clear that biodiversity loss hasn't been halted. So what is the beauty industry doing about this? After all, this is an industry that relies on thousands of different plant and animal derived ingredients. But many of those ingredients, when they're cultivated and harvested, rely on monocultures that are the very antithesis of biodiversity. And on the flip side, when cosmetic ingredients are wild harvested, their consumption can negatively affect wild populations of plants. And these are just two examples of how incredibly complex and huge this topic actually is. But I'm seeing very few media outlets and very few beauty brands really, truly talk about what biodiversity means in context of cosmetics. So when I decided it was time to talk about biodiversity, I knew there was only one person to call and invite back onto the podcast. And today I'm joined by Dr. Sally Gouldstone, who was previously on the podcast in episode 75 when we talked about the sustainability of essential oils. And I think it's safe to say that Sally made a few waves when she previously joined me and people still talk to me about that interview today. So buckle up because we're going to poke the beauty industry with a bit of a sharp stick for the next 30 minutes. Welcome to Green Beauty Conversations, in which I challenge the beauty industry to become more sustainable, champion, independent and green beauty, and encourage you to join me in changing the beauty industry for the better. I'm your host, Lorraine Dallmeyer. I'm a chartered environmentalist, biologist and the CEO of award winning online organic cosmetic formulation school, Formula Botanica. We have tens of thousands of students in over 190 countries around the world who study with us to become organic beauty formulators and entrepreneurs. Visit our website@formulabotanica.com to try our free online formulation course. And if you want to be the first person to know what's happening in green beauty, make sure you subscribe to this podcast in your favorite podcast app. So, in today's episode, I'm joined by Dr. Sally Goldstone, a botanist and the founder and director of Shaylik, an award winning natural skincare company that grows its ingredients in a wildflower meadow and the only wildlife friendly certified company in the UK. Before starting Shalik, Sally spent over 20 years working in the nature conservation industry, which is where the idea to create a company that used its profits to conserve nature began. Shalik is the only skincare company to have been shortlisted for a Nature of Scotland Award from the rspb, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, and was awarded Best wildcrafted Beauty Brand by Beauty shortlist in 2022. In addition to running Shalik, Sally is also a lecturer in ecology at the University of Edinburgh. Hi, Sally, how are you doing today?

I am good, thank you. It's lovely to be here.

It's lovely to have you back. And I already said it in the intro. I know a lot of people absolutely love the episode that you and I did, which is already a few years ago. For those of the people listening who didn't hear that first episode, could you please introduce yourself and tell us about what you do and why you're so passionate about biodiversity?

Yeah. So My name is Dr. Sally Goulstone. I'm an ecologist or a botanist and I've worked in the nature conservation industry for over 20 years now. I came into the beauty industry because I basically wanted to create a business that used its profits to conserve nature. I know I should say that I just love beauty and beauty products in the beauty industry. That was not the case. I literally had to think of something where I could harvest natural ingredients in the most sustainable, low impact way and create a product that had the highest markup and that was a beauty product. It just so happens the way that I produce the ingredients, that they're really super high quality. So that was my kind of way into the beauty industry street and what I found when I got there has really quite shocked me in terms of being a nature positive beauty brand, bringing that to the sector and the sector kind of just being like, what's that? Why do we need that? That's where I kind of feel I'm still at. I do a lot of talking to people, trying to raise awareness. But are we getting anywhere in the industry? I don't know. I think that's probably quite nice to talk about.

Yes, I agree. Well, that's what we're going to talk about today and I have to just say I laugh, but inwardly obvious I'm crying and agreeing with you because all you can do in these situations is laugh sometimes. But let's talk a little bit about the beauty industry. How does it realistically contribute to biodiversity loss? Because this is a big, big topic and I think people probably struggle to sort of marry this concept of biodiversity and beauty. How does this all work together?

Absolutely. And I'll start by saying it's not just the beauty industry. It sounds like I'm picking on the beauty industry, but I go to a lot of business biodiversity meetings and it isn't just the beauty industry, it's across the board. People can't make that l from their business, their impact to the natural world. But what's so interesting about the beauty industry, particularly the natural beauty industry, is that we have these huge and really direct impacts as well as indirect impacts as well. But when it comes to the direct impact is literally the ingredients that we're using, these natural ingredients, they all come from the natural world in some way and they therefore all have impacts on the natural world. So we've got crops that are causing habitat loss, so things like palm oil, which we know a lot about, but also cocoa butter is another ingredient there. Agriculture is of course the number one driver of biodiversity loss worldwide. So anything that's grown in the traditional agricultural system is going to be having a huge impact. We've got the use of rare and threatened species, so we see things like frankincense used quite a lot. We can talk about that a bit later because there are obviously ways of producing it that are nature positive, but there are those that don't. We've got land take associated low yielding crops and this is what we talked about an awful lot in the previous interview. We've got population declines that are associated with wild harvested ingredients. So going out into these little patches of nature that we've got remaining and taking things out of them, we've got harvesting from biodiversity hotspots and areas that we haven't actually explored scientifically all that much yet. So we see these ingredients that really new and exciting to the beauty industry industry again, that's extracting these ingredients from really exciting natural areas. And then we've got ingredients that just have really difficult to try to trace supply chains. So we know they're from the natural world, but we're not entirely sure where they've come from and how they've got to us. And then of course we've got loads of indirect Impacts as well. So things like the manufacturing processes, extraction processes, end of use, packaging, distribution, all that stuff as well.

My goodness, there's a lot to unpick here. I'm not sure that half an hour is going to quite do it justice, but one thing I just want to ask, before we dive into a few more of those aspects, is you talked about the words nature positive a few times in relation to your own business, but also to things that you expect the beauty industry to be doing. What do those words actually mean?

So nature positive is quite a trendy term that we've used more recently. So when we think about climate change, it's all about reducing our impacts, so reducing the amount of carbon that we're producing. So it's literally trying to get that curve down. When it comes to biodiversity, it's not enough just to reduce our impacts on biodiversity. What we need to do is to actually allow nature to expand and grow. So there was a really interesting paper published a couple of years ago that showed that if we just continue with our conservation efforts to reduce our impacts on rare and threatened species, we're still going to see a downward curve, a downward decline in the natural world. What we actually need to do is start doing these really positive things. So that's where kind of the term came from and what it means. It's that we want to see biodiversity levels to have increased, basically, compared to a 1990s baseline. So by the2030s, we want to see an increased level of biodiversity compared to 1990.

Is that realistically going to happen, do you think, based on where we are at the moment and the conservation efforts that. Or the nature positive, I suppose conservation.

Efforts that we're seeing, if things continue as they are not going to happen. No. And that's going to have huge consequences for us as human beings because of all the ecosystem services that we rely on. But I think that's why the beauty industry is in actually a really exciting position, because we do have these really direct impacts and we've also got customer groups who are really naturally very interested in these areas. So I think we could make a really positive change. And if we do it, others might start to follow. So status quo? No, we're in big trouble. But we have time. If we do it now, we have time to make that change.

So what are you seeing the beauty industry talk about in relation to biodiversity in particular? Because I have to admit, I haven't seen a huge amount. Obviously, we're going to hopefully come to some suggestions for what we think the beauty industry should be doing in this podcast today. But what are you seeing them doing already?

I've seen particular schemes. So palm oil, for example. Lots of people are talking about palm oil and we've got sustainably produced palm oil, so that's fantastic. So we've got kind of these ingredient specific areas of interest. We've also got some of the ingredients. We're starting to see fair wild certification on some ingredients. We've got wildlife friendly certification on some ingredients, which is great. I think there's a lot of confusion around biodiversity impacts and I hear a lot that, oh, well, you know, we're doing work on climate or we're doing work on pollution. And of course all these things are overlapping, they're not completely separate. So if you're doing work to reduce your carbon footprint. Absolutely, that's fantastic for nature. If you're reducing plastic use pollution, of course that's fantastic for nature. But we do need to start seeing some really kind of concerted efforts just to work on our biodiversity footprint as well.

No, that makes perfect sense. Well, let's talk a little bit about that. What do you think? One of the first things is that we need to see the beauty industry do more of.

I really want to see the beauty industry starting to understand the impact they're having and to take a bit of kind of possession of that and say, yeah, actually we do have these really direct and really large impacts. They're very obvious. And let's just start talking about that and owning it a little bit. I think at the moment there's a little bit of, oh, no, our ingredients are natural, they're good for nature. Just this kind of assumption. And you see it celebrated all the time. You know, loads of marketing schemes look at this amazing natural ingredient and in fact, sometimes the rarer it is, the more unusual the ingredients or the more of it we're putting in our product, the more we celebrate it. I think we actually need to unpick that a little bit and start saying, hang on, maybe by using these ingredients we are having an impact and that's not a good thing.

No, I completely agree. I think it's a discussion that definitely needs to be had. I mean, so many people confuse the terms sustainable and natural. First of all, that comes back all the time and yet there are so many, so many opportunities to use ingredients that are very common and pretty much overlooked. Is that something that you do in your brand as well?

So what we're trying to do is show that you can produce natural ingredients in a nature positive way and this is where I come back to this opportunity that we have because we're not food producers. You know, the ingredients that we're looking at using, we're not talking about producing them in great, great amounts. So we have this opportunity to produce these ingredients in a nature positive way. So what we're doing at Shalik is producing natural ingredients, but we're growing these ingredients within natural systems that we are ourselves creating. So we're creating wild spaces for nature and then harvesting some ingredients from them. So it's very controlled, it's very managed. I'm not saying that we're creating amazing nature reserves, and I'm not saying that we are farmers and we could sustain human populations with food. In these kind of farming systems, we're sitting somewhere in the middle. And I think it's a model that we could start to see rolling out amongst ingredient producers if we can show there's a demand for them. And I think that comes from beauty brands going to supplies and saying, where does this come from? How is it produced? And we want to see this ingredient produced in a better way. You know, we care about it.

Yeah. Traceability and transparency seems to be a recurring theme coming back on the podcast every single week now, actually, as we're seeing the mainstream beauty industry talk about it more. But what traceability and transparency means to them might be slightly different to what it means to many others. Would you say that regenerative agriculture might be the answer to many of the problems that the beauty industry is facing?

To a certain degree, yes. The problem that we have is when we look at some of the kind of rare and threatened species going back to frankincense, again, you could produce. Can you produce that in a regenerative way? It's a bit of a tricky area. So there's lots of these impacts that we're having that could be lessened by growing organically or in a regenerative way? Absolutely. So especially things like the essential oils, these kind of lower yielding crops. Absolutely. But I don't think that alone is the solution. I also think that sometimes ingredients that are produced organically or in a regenerative way, sometimes they are marketed as being better for human beings. Like they're pure, the whole clean beauty movement. And people can confuse that with things that are better for the planet. And actually if we make the distinction and say, no, this is all about nature positivity, it's about biodiversity, it's about the planet. Yes. Some of the kind of side effects we have, these ingredients that are better for humans too but first and foremost, it's better for nature.

Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. Would you say that? I mean, we're seeing a lot of the smaller brands obviously very much focus on ingredients that are grown and harvested, but I'm seeing a shift in the, the giant brands shifting more towards biotechnology, where they're actually obviously generating a lot of their ingredients or plan to generate a lot of their ingredients from bio based sources in a lab. Do you think that might be the solution for some of the bigger brands?

I think it could be where we've got to pump an awful lot of these ingredients out, but then we're kind of missing this opportunity to really produce these ingredients and have a positive impact on nature. So there would be this amazing opportunity to create more of these kind of growing environments like we are at Shalik, and put something positive back. And that's how we're going to start bending the curve and having this positive impact. Yes. By using biotechnology we can reduce our impacts. Fantastic. But then those companies might need to perhaps look at ways of putting something back as well. So we start to see this uptick, which is what we really need.

That I completely understand. I mean, one thing you said earlier was, you said you've got Fair Wild certification. Is that correct? Is that what it's called?

Yes. We don't, I don't personally have it, but I think it's a great thing.

How would a beauty brand be able to use something like that? Then?

That would be a certification that they would get for the ingredients that they're using. So if they had a star ingredient in their product and that it's an ingredient that is harvested from the wild, if they could source it from a Fair Wild producer, that would be a way of them lessening their impact and showing that they really cared about these things.

So do you think then that certification schemes can really help the beauty industry with some of its biodiversity struggles? Will there be better traceability and transparency with a certification scheme in place?

Yeah, I think this is what we need. I think we need a bit more dialogue between these certification schemes and the beauty industry. And for the beauty industry to really start taking notice of them and seeing them as something that should have a place at the table. When we're talking about sustainability in the industry.

Yeah, I think the only struggle for a beauty brand, of course, is there are just so, so many certification schemes. I'm sure you see this as well. I mean, there are just hundreds of them and there are new ones mushrooming up all the time. And you just sit There. And you go, how? And I actually once put this to someone who was running one of the big certification schemes and said, wouldn't it be great if you could just bring them all together? And he basically went, well, yes, that would be great, Lorraine. But then no one would ever become certified, which is a fair point. But then I suppose you do need to be thinking about biodiversity and water use and sustainability and climate and all of it, don't you?

I think the key here is understanding as a brand, you can be certified for certain things, so you can have your organic certification for your brand or for your individual products. But I think what we're talking about here is one step below that and it's the certification of the individual ingredients. And, okay, you might not wear that badge on your sleeve as a brand, you might not be fair wild certified as a brand, but the ingredients that you're using will be. And you can add that into your overall story of how you're contributing to sustainability and solving the biodiversity crisis.

Yes, much to do on the brand side. Where does some wild harvesting fit into all of this? Do you think that has any place whatsoever for beauty brands?

No, it's something that really concerns me. And again, I think there's this confusion that it's natural, therefore it's good for nature. You know, these ingredients that are wild harvested, I'll be completely honest, wild harvesting ingredients, they are amazing. The volatiles they produce, for example, are out of this world. They are really active plants. Absolutely fantastic. But the problem is we have such small areas that are now set aside for nature, tiny little patches. If we look at the uk, we've got tiny little field margins, tiny patches of woodland, all very isolated, all very vulnerable. If we're then going into those little areas that are set aside and these huge agricultural landscapes that we've set aside for producing food, we're going into these tiny little patches and we're still taking, as humans, we're still taking out. That's not going to be good overall for wildlife, for nature, and we need to start thinking about it in that way. If you want to take out these ingredients, you need to put back. And you don't just need to put back what you took, you need to put more back again if we're going to bend this curve and be nature positive. So we really need to start thinking about these things, tying in with what.

You just said about, you know, we're basically giving back. Do you think there's a risk that the big beauty players in particular might start to treat these Positive contributions more as offsets, where they're effectively basically taking a bit of land over there that's maybe a bit degraded and trying to regenerate it a bit, and by treating it as an offset, much as many brands and companies, of course, are doing with the carbon offsets and climate offsets that they're buying. That way they're not potentially tackling the root problem. Do you think that's something that we might start to see?

I think. I mean, that could absolutely be a problem, and I completely agree with you in the climate sector that it's a problem. However, if we had big brands contributing to wildlife charities, for example, that could then do really positive things. I mean, as a first step, that would be absolutely brilliant. That would be fantastic. Yes. We do need to be careful that we're not continuing to have negative impacts that outweigh those positive benefits. Absolutely. But I think, given where we sit in the industry at the moment, that we're just kind of like, do we have any impacts? I don't know. At least that will be a step along the way of some kind of ownership and saying, okay, we are doing something bad, and until we can unpick that, this is what we're going to do. I think that would be a good start.

Yeah, it's true. I'm sure the beauty industry as a whole has absolutely no insight whatsoever as to how much raw material the industry actually uses. It is so nebulous. I've certainly never been able to even get even a glimmer of an insight into this. And I feel that they're probably so in the dark that no one really fully knows, which is why companies such as Clarins have just. I mean, Clarins has just announced that they're going to try and control their ingredient footprint more by creating their own farms to grow ingredients. So I think a potential solution. Do you think a potential solution could be having less of a nebulous supply chain?

Yeah, absolutely. If we could take charge of our supply chains. Absolutely. It's so difficult, particularly for a small brand where you've got that middleman. You're not even going to kind of the big wholesalers, you're going to a middleman. Again, in between, it can be really difficult to get information on where the ingredients have come from and what the backstory is. It's pretty much impossible. So we do need these big, bigger players to start either demanding the information or doing it differently. So there's an expectation that these ingredients are produced in a certain way or that they can be at least produced in that certain way. As a brand myself, I really struggle with my own kind of marketing claims. So we've just produced a product that we're celebrating that 95% of what's in the bottle comes from the meadow. And that's great for us because it comes from the habitats that we are, are creating, and we're putting our profits back into expanding them. But if we start using language like that, we're then kind of falling into this trap of we're using natural ingredients. And isn't that amazing? You know, the more of it we put in the bottle, the better it is. So it's great that brands can be thinking about the way they're producing these ingredients, and there is this nature positive way of producing them. But we do also need to kind of be careful about the marketing speak that we're using behind that as well, and making it really clear that that's very different to just producing and using natural ingredients.

Yeah, that's a really tough one. I mean, obviously you're fortunate in knowing exactly where your ingredients come from, but I suppose the bigger players in particular have no insight. And in fact, the episode I released last week on the podcast was all about human rights abuses in various cosmetic supply chains and how the big players, you know, they. They set these audit guidelines and they expect obviously their suppliers to uphold the standards that they set, but they have no way of really you actually policing it. Whereas, of course, the beauty is that you can walk into your meadow and just know that this is exactly where the ingredients came from. That must feel very empowering, actually.

Yeah, it does. By producing our ingredients, you know, right outside the workshop, we're of course lowering our carbon footprint as well, because, you know, they're not traveling very far. And I think this is another piece of the puzzle is actually using locally produced ingredients wherever you can, you know, where you can literally go and see where they're grown. I mean, that's got to be the best solution. So then you don't have these supply chain issues. You don't have this kind of misinformation. It's all very, very clear, very obvious.

Well, just to paint a picture for our listeners, what sort of ingredients do you grow?

We grow everything that we. All the kind of botanical ingredients that we use. So we obviously produce our own essential oils, we produce our own hydrosols, we make our own glycerites, we make our own infused oils as well. So all the botanicals go into the products we're producing ourselves.

Which plants have you Got in the meadow, just out of my curiosity, this.

Morning, we were harvesting red clover and plantain and Self Heal. We also grow things, you know, very common ingredients. Like we were just harvesting the Roman chamomile. We just distilled that this week. We've got peppermint about to come up for harvest as well. Meadow Sweet is one of my favourites. The wild carrot is just coming into flower, but it's the seeds that we use of those, the mallow, the roots we're about to harvest, the paint such a beautiful picture.

I'd love to come and walk through your meadow right now, and I'm sure all the listeners would as well. One question I want to ask, which is about the big elephant in the room, and you talked about this earlier already, is palm oil. How big of a problem do you think palm oil is in the biodiversity crisis faced by the beauty industry?

It's a huge problem. The solution that we have in terms of sustainably produced palm oil, there's a huge problem with that, again, because of traceability of supply chains. It's such a great idea that we can produce in this sustainable way, but it's just so difficult to get that. That traceability of the ingredients. And it'd be fantastic if we could crack that and just kind of hold that up as, you know, a bit of a. As a solution, a way that others could follow. But it's just, it's. It's incredibly difficult to do that. There are obviously alternatives that we can use instead in the beauty industry. So it's not like we're kind of the food industry where we're with. We really need it as an ingredient. But it's very difficult one.

It is a very difficult one. You mentioned cocoa butter as well, produced.

In a very similar way that it likes these virgin soils, so involves kind of land clearance to produce it. Not many people understand that, you know, it has kind of the same fate in terms of the vegetation that predates it. So, again, it's one of these where we just need a little bit more information, sharing a bit more awareness, people asking questions, where does this come from? How is it produced?

Do you think that consumers should be asking those questions again, or should this predominantly be coming from the brands themselves, sourcing ingredients?

It definitely has to come from the brands. Consumers do not have the time for one thing when they're, you know, you're choosing a beauty product, there's so many different things to be thinking of and ultimately you're thinking, what's better? For me, individually, they're not going to be looking into individual ingredients and their impacts. They're not. This has to come from the brands. It has to be the brands that are demanding this going back to the suppliers. There's no way it can. Consumer would even know where to start with all of that. So it absolutely has to be the brands.

Yeah, I agree. It would be very hard for a consumer to get this right, touched on it before.

I think the consumers want this. You know, I think if you get it right, consumers are really going to want these. These products that are sourced in this way. But unfortunately though, you know, they're not part of the information. The brands can demand it and they can make the change.

They can. And hopefully they will be leading the change in the coming years as well. But we'll come on to that. I just wanted to touch on biodiversity hotspots. I mean, these are obviously areas of the world, particularly sort of nearer to the equator often, which are a bit warmer. There's a huge abundance of biodiversity there. Obviously a lot of ingredients come from some of these hotspots as well. Do you think that we risk looking at these places as exotic places that need to be untouched? Should we be looking at them through the lens of the people who actually live there and work there, rely on those ecosystems and who maybe need those ecosystems in order to make a living? It's a really hard one.

It is. And I think that there are, you know, there are fantastic ingredients that come from these places and they can produce. Be produced in a really nature positive way. Absolutely. And again, this is where the opportunity is to support these communities and to support conservation projects that can be built around the production of these ingredients. Absolutely fantastic opportunity to. To do that.

Okay, final question. What do you think the beauty industry needs to do in order to change the narrative? I mean, we talked about this at the beginning of the podcast. What are the big changes that we need to start seeing?

So first of all, we need to own it. We need to say these are the impacts that we're having. We get it. And actually amping, look at all the ingredients that we use and say, where is this coming from? What is the impact? That's absolutely got to be the first thing that we do. We need to start talking about it within the industry. We've got to say, okay, we've got pollution here, we've got climate change and we've got biodiversity loss. And this is a biggie for us as well. Huge opportunity. We then need to go into those individual ingredients and say, okay, how can we make this better how can we reduce our impact in this area? And then the third thing is about looking at what are the opportunities to bend this curve and actually have a positive impact as well. So there's three areas, first thing. Absolutely. Let's just blinking well talk about it and accept that it's here and there's something that we need to do about it.

Yes. Well, hopefully today's podcast will contribute a little bit to that conversation as well, and I certainly hope it will spark a little bit of more discussion around biodiversity. Sally, it's lovely to have you on the podcast with me again. Where can people find out more about you and all the work you do and come and buy your products from Shaylik as well?

Yes. So absolutely. Head online www.shaylik.co.uk and you can also get me on LinkedIn as well where I post all the my kind of thoughts about these subjects as well.

Lovely. Well, it's lovely to hear from you again. I know a lot of people will be inspired by this episode and obviously the previous episode that you and I, I did together all the way back, I think it was in 2021. Thank you so much for joining me and I look forward to maybe revisiting this topic at some point in the future with you if you're up for coming back on.

Absolutely, absolutely. And hopefully things will have moved on.

Let's hope so. Thanks a lot.

Thank you very much.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this episode. How can the beauty industry do better by biodiversity? Have you even heard brands talking about biodiversity and their supply chain responsibilities? Leave us a comment on our social channels as both the Formula Botanica team and I love hearing from you. And if you want to hear more about some of the topics we covered today, please do delve back into the podcast archives. Some great examples include obviously episode 75, when Sally joined me for the first time on the podcast and we talked about the sustainability of essential oils. This is a great episode. It's a must listen. You need to hear it. Then episode 213 in which I interviewed Ruth Andrade, the Earth Care Strategy lead at Last Lush, about the ways that they are trying to integrate regenerative practices into their supply chain and business. Really interesting interview or episode 105 in which Anna Green and I discussed whether tropical ingredients can ever be sustainable. We pick up on the topic about biodiversity hotspots that Sally and I briefly discussed today. There's a wealth of information in our old episodes and I do encourage you to go back and listen to them. Thank you for joining Sally and I for this latest episode of Green Beauty Conversations. I really hope you enjoyed it. If you did, please do leave us a five star review so that other people can enjoy these conversations too. Make sure you subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or whatever your favorite podcast app is, and stay tuned for the next episode. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please do leave us a five star review so that other people can enjoy these conversations as well. Follow Formula Botanicaormula Botanica on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Twitter, or LinkedIn and come and give me me a Follow Lorraine Dallmeyer on Instagram, visit our website@formulabotanica.com and sign up for our free online Formulation course today.