EP25.Karen Gilbert on Fragrance in Natural Skincare

Hello and welcome to the Formula Botanica Green Beauty Conversations podcast. If you want to know a little bit more about our award winning online natural and organic cosmetic science courses, then head over to formulapotanica.com and check out our free sample class. This week I'm interviewing Karen Gilbert on all things perfume related and about how to create scent for your natural and organic skincare products. Enjoy. Hello and welcome to the podcast, Karen.

Thank you. It's so great to be here.

We're really excited to have you as a guest. I've had you in mind as a guest for quite some time. I know we've done a few bits and pieces with you in our Facebook group and we love having you as a part of our community. So just for the benefit of the listeners who don't know who you are, could you just introduce yourself and explain a little bit about your background?

Yeah, of course. So I'm Karen Gilbert and I run a fragrance training school. So online perfumeschool.com. my background is really sort of twofold. I started out working for one of like the big fragrance houses to, you know, helping them to create fragrances for everything from, you know, fine fragrance to toilet cleaner. I worked as an evaluator for a big company called IFF and I did that for many years. And because I've always, my, my sort of true love has always been with naturals, I decided to train as an aromatherapist and I left and then went to work with Neil's Yard Remedies. So this was sort of back in the late 90s, early 2000s when they were still quite a small company. So I ended up working in product development alongside the founder Romy and I worked on some fragrances for their product. And then I ended up discovering that I love to teach and so I became their retail trainer. So I was really responsible for, I still did a bit of fragrance creation for them and product development development, but mainly I was sort of teaching and, and training the retail staff on the products and the ingredients and that kind of thing. And then sort of fast forward to now. I teach the. The majority of people that I teach are people who either are completely passionate about fragrance and they have a dream of starting their own fragrance line or the bigger chunk that I'm seeing a lot nowadays is people who have already got their entrepreneurs. They might have like a skincare business or they might have some, something where they're selling candles or room fragrances, something like that, and they really want to get the, the fragrance bit right and they might have you know, studied a bit of aromatherapy. They might have products already that they're really struggling to kind of get the scent bit right for. Yeah, yeah. So my website is karengilbert.co.uk or online perfumeschool.com so you can find me on social media as well, or, you know, in and around the. The Formula Botanica community as well. So I'm quite easy to find.

Find you are, yes. And I know that quite a few of our students and graduates have taken your courses, including some of our staff members. And they all speak very. I know, yeah, they all speak very highly of it. So that's why I was just thrilled to have you as a guest on the podcast. And I have quite a few different questions for you. So I know we had like a little chat before the podcast and, you know, you were telling me a bit more about your background and you used the phrase using fragrance as a tool for well being. And I know that that's kind of your key kind of mantra, your E. So I was wondering if you could kind of expand on that for us and just explain what you mean by using fragrance as a tool for well being.

Yeah, it's. It's actually, I would probably say if someone asked me, you know, what is the reason that you are. You. You teach perfumery or you teach fragrance creation and especially with naturals, it's really. It kind of goes back to how I've always used scent myself and, and I did a bit of research actually, with, with one of my groups and said, you know, why do we, you know, why do you use science scent or scented products? And the majority of people answered, because it makes me feel good. And so I think sometimes we think of perfume as a, you know, as a, a thing that we spray on to. If you look at all of the advertising that's out there, it's, you know, it's aspirational. Right. So it's like, you know, like, spray this perfume on and you two will get the girl or you will like, you know, become this glamorous kind of celebrity. But really, actually, if you drill it back to what people really are thinking when they choose a product or they, they wear a scent or smell a scent, it's really because it makes them feel good. And so if, of course, if we feel good, then you know, that that enhances our life. And I think one of the most important things the to consider, like, when you're developing, if you're developing a product or when you're choosing a fragrance, even if it's for yourself is like, how does that scent make me feel? And it really is. It's kind of. I mean, you know, there are obviously lots of studies that are done in the industry on what particular scents make you feel, you know, like. So this, we think of aromatherapy, right, but it's done in the fragrance industry as well. So it's not just working on the basis of the, you know, the chemical components of a scent. It's actually more psychological and how our brain works. And the reason for this is the way that our brain processes smell is quite different to our other senses. Wow. And some of you listening to this might know this already, but if you don't, this is going to be sort of a real key to how you decide, you know, what scent that you're going to use or put in your products or whatever. It's like when you smell an aroma, whether it is from an essential oil or a perfume or whether it is just you're walking down the street. The way that your brain processes that, it's like the scent molecules, you know, obviously go up your nose to your olfactory bulb. And your olfactory bulb is actually part of your brain. So it's not really that much to do with your nose. It's attached to your brain and that is that scent is processed through your hypothalamus and your limbic system. And that is the part of your brain that is also responsible for storing memories. So we all, like, you know, it sounds like a bit of a cliche. You know, that scent made me think of, you know, that person that I hadn't seen for years or walking down that street and I got a whiff of, you know, fresh cut grass and it reminded me of that time when I was, you know, on holiday. And yeah, I mean, that's a very real thing because that is the way your brain processes smell. And there is this quote that I can't take credit for, but I cannot. I've. I've been talking about it for so long, I can't actually remember where I read it, first of all, but it's something that really sums it up to me. It's, you know, what we smell triggers a memory and then that memory triggers an emotion and then that emotion causes us to behave in a certain way. It causes a reaction. And so what we want to do is, you know, we want to make sure that, you know, our brain collects those pieces of olfactory information over the years, you know, growing up as a child. So we are going to have some bits of pre programmed Smell association. But what we also want to do if we create. So like flipping this onto. You want to be creating that positive memory link with your product through smell. And that is one of the most powerful. Obviously, you know, your product has to be great and it has to perform and it has to do the thing that it says on the tin. But actually one of the most powerful ways of building that sort of connection with a customer, with your product is through smell. Because obviously we want them to have feel good when they're using it. We want to have that positive memory association and we want them to keep coming back because they're like, oh, you know, that makes me feel so good, you know, when I use that product. And I think a lot of people think about it in terms of perfume, like, you know, a fragrance that you spray on or a room spray or a candle, but they don't necessarily think about it in terms of a skincare product or maybe a body product. Yeah. And. And that is part of that should always come into. To part of the equation when you're developing a fragrance as well. Does that make sense?

It does, it does. So, I mean, I'm just thinking about Marcel Proust and.

Yes, well, the Madeleine. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So that's that. Yeah, that's one that sort of does the rounds in the fragrance industry. And, and I think, you know, like, with. When you're looking at developing natural products, natural skincare products, there is this tendency, you know, and I know that a lot of the, you know, the Formula Botanica group are natural material. And I know, like this, like, if you're an aromatherapist, you think, okay, right, well, I know what oil I'm going to put in that product for that purpose on the therapeutic benefits of essential oils. And that is great. And yeah, absolutely. If that is part of your branding and you know, you're putting your oils in, into that product for that therapeutic benefit, that's great. But you also need to look at the aesthetics as well. And so, and that was actually one of my challenges when I was working in product development for Neil's Yard, because, you know, Romy in those days, she's not. No longer owns the company, but, you know, she's like, right, okay, this is, this is the, these are the oils that you've got to work with. You know, we must have these oils in the product. And then it's like, okay, well, they're in there for their therapeutic benefit, but that actually they don't smell great together. Like, so what can we do here? To not only keep within that the therapeutic benefit so they, they're effective as, as ingredients, but also we need to make sure that they are smelling good. They're sitting right within the product and, and actually they're giving out the right message that we want to communicate because essentially is also, you know, it makes us feel good. And, you know, we as product developers want to make sure that we are creating those products and that we're delivering the right message to the customer as well. So before they've even used the product and they know that it's going to be fabulous and work amazingly, you know, you can lose them on first sniff because if it doesn't smell great, they're going to not necessarily want to use it.

Yeah.

So that's something that you really. I would suggest that you keep in mind.

I mean, my next, My next thing that I wanted to cover with you on my next question was looking at the practical aspects that people need to consider in relation to using fragrance as a form of communication and looking at what smell communicates to us about a product. Because like you say, I mean, we get, we get people all the time that said, oh, I developed this product and it's got all these things in and it's amazing. But people keep telling me it smells gross and they're like, you know, don't want to use it because of that. Even though they know the therapeutic benefits are.

Yeah, it's totally.

People don't want to get good feedback.

Yeah. This is one of the things that I think people don't know. And this is, I guess this is the benefit that I have of being. Having been in the commercial fragrance industry. And what I will say is that the big, big brands put just as much into the development of the scent for their skincare products as they do into the performance and the ingredients. And I think something. That's something that sometimes the indies miss because they are really so focused on like, okay, what are the ingredients? We're going to pack this product with, like, amazing ingredients and it's going to do a great job. And they don't necessarily think of the esthetics as much. I mean, you know, a lot of some do, but, you know, that's. That's just something that to know that the big brands put just as much into scent. And I think especially in the naturals world, there's this kind of demonization, a little bit of perfume, and perfume is evil. But actually whether, when we're talking about perfumery and scent, it's whether it's created with synthetics or whether it's created with naturals, it's still perfumery. And aromatherapy is really you looking at how, you know, the chemical components of an essential oil work on the body, whether it's psychologically or on or on our physiology. But actually the aesthetic bit, it's almost like you need to have a bit of a hybrid of the two industries. And, you know, obviously this can be done with naturals as well. I'm not saying, you know, but I think a lot of people, when they talk, think about perfumery, they think it's like just something for. If you're developing a room spray or a candle or if the product is scent lead or fragrance led, if you, if you see what I mean.

Yes, Yeah.

A face cream. So, you know, the big companies, when they're developing skincare products that are going to be going on the face, around the eyes, you know, they're still thinking about the scent and what that user is going to be experiencing when they use the product. So you can't take the aesthetics out of it. And, you know, in an ideal world, nobody would care about the smell. And we could put all these smelly old base oils in that. No one would care. But the reality is like, you know, we, we associate. It kind of goes back to that beginning bit, you know, when we were talking about associations with different, different smells. So even if you take kind of like the therapeutic benefits out of it, you know, if we are going into, and this is like a story that I sort of talk about in one of my courses, like, you know, you're going into a supermarket, so you're going into Boots or a drugstore or chemist, depending on where you are in the world, or Walmart or. And you want to buy a, a shampoo. And you've got blonde hair and you've got slightly oily roots. So you are looking for a, a shampoo for sort of fine hair that's light in color that you want to make sure that you, you know, it doesn't, you know, you get rid of your oily roots and, and you want something like you go to the, the shelf, you look along the. Chances are. And it's visual as well. As human beings, we are very visual. So packaging and color and all of that is important. And you look at, you look along the rail, the, the, the shelf and you see like a bottle that's yellow and it says, you know, hair, like shampoo for like oily hair. And you pick it up and the first thing you're going to do is flip the cap and you're going to smell it. And if that shampoo. So what are you. You know, what is your first impression going to be of. Of that shampoo? You're going to have an expectation of what that scent is going to be. It's for oily hair. It's in a yellow bottle. It's supposed to lift, like, greasy scalp. You're gonna expect it to smell fresh, clean, citrusy. If it smells like, I don't know, like, musky, spicy, oriental kind of scent, you're gonna be like, what? Like, that doesn't make sense. And you'll put it back. Because we've been trained to associate that particular smell with that particular benefit and that particular color. And if there is a disconnect at that point, at any point in that, we're gonna go, oh, that's not gonna work. Of course, it's all about the detergent. It's all about the actual ingredients in the product, not the smell. But we're not gonna feel like as customers that those benefits are going to be in the product because it smells wrong.

Yeah.

And that is something that we really don't have any control over unless we kind of. I mean, you know, now, because I've trained so much, you know, I would kind of go, okay, they got that scent a bit wrong. But obviously, I know that it's not going to be, you know, it's not going to affect the performance of the product, but the general consumer won't think that. And I think that's the thing. When you're developing a product, you're so close to it, and you're so in the trenches with developing the product based on its performance and ingredients, you. You stop thinking like a consumer. Because, you know, once you've done, like, you know, so many courses and you've become this expert in an area, you have to then take yourself out of the equation because you're no longer a bog standard. You know, you're not the guy in the street or the woman in the street anymore. You know, all of the ins and outs of it. And you have to start thinking like a consumer and thinking, okay, so if I knew nothing about this product, I knew nothing about the fragrance, I knew nothing about the ingredients, what am I going to think just by smelling it or rubbing it onto the skin? So obviously, texture is important as well. All of the. And the visual, all of it adds up to make this perfect package, if you like. But scent is such a big tool for communicating those benefits. So what I would say is like looking at the therapy. Yes, absolutely. Look at the therapeutic properties of your, your oils that you're using, your, your essential oils and your absolutes, if you use those too. But also think about, is there a disconnect anywhere or is it, is it supporting that? So if it's a fun, if your fragrance is in, for example, you know, like a room spray or something, that's going to be, you know, just a fragrance LED product, so a scent for a scent sake, then there's the story behind that. But if you're creating a skincare product like a facial oil or a skin cream or whatever, you know, think about what that end user, who that end user is. What is their skin type? Are they, you know, are they an oily skin or a dry skin? Or what do they want to feel when they're using it as part of, as part of the package of the benefits of that product? Does that make sense? It's like, it can be really simple, but I think you do need to. And the other thing that I would say is like a practical step is don't formulate your product and then think, oh, what is it going to smell like? It needs to happen alongside each other. So when you're formulating your product, you really need to be developing the scent, what it's going to smell like alongside it.

Yeah. I know that we talked about in the run up to this podcast about how often you can develop a scent and then it smells very differently on the skin once you apply it.

Yeah. So this, and this is something that I teach in my courses, because people don't necessarily. You don't know if you don't know, if you've never done it before, you don't know. But, and this is especially true when working with natural materials. In an ideal world, you would have, like, this amazing skincare product that works amazingly and it has no base odor, it's completely neutral. And when you put the scent of your choice in it, it would smell exactly the same. But it obviously, it never works like that because we're looking at different solubilities, different performances, and we've got different levels of oil and water, and if you've got any kind of detergent products in there, and that is without thinking about some of the natural oils that have got their own smell. So any tweak that you make to your base, to your actual product formula is going to affect the way that the scent performs.

Yeah.

So you. And this is, this is going back to when I was working with iff. We would always Say, work with a client.

So we work with a lot of.

Contract manufacturers and so the client would say, okay, we're, you know, we're developing this cream for, say, I don't know, l' Oreal or someone. And, you know, these, this company is making the base and we want you to create the fragrance. We would always request a sample of the actual base, which obviously never happened, really, because it was never finished, you know, to develop the fragrance. Because if you don't have the actual base, you, you're kind of like a, you know, you're working blind, really. And so the benefit that you have as an indie like brand who is doing your own formulating, you know, you have the control over that right from the very beginning. Because often we wouldn't get the base and they'd be like, oh, no, it's not ready. So we'd have to use a standard generic face cream base. We're like, okay, well, it works in this, but you need to test it in your base. Otherwise, you know, we might have to go right back to square one again because, I don't know, some, some oil that they've used that has a really strong odor. And so think about when you're formulating your, your product, your base oils, you know, think about all of the ingredients together. It's not like the scent of it. And the product is not two separate things. It's all in one package.

So I mean, what. Some practical tips that people can think about as they're doing that, because we often get people struggling with the fragrance of products. You know, so I remember having one student saying, I've put a tiny bit of olive oil in, but now all I can smell is olive oil in this product.

Yeah. So one of the first things that I teach my students is how to train your nose. And not, it's not something necessarily you would think to do if you're formulating skincare products, but really what you have to do is think of every single ingredient that has a smell as part of the scent. Because if you're going to use those ingredients, they're going to impact like the amounts that you use. It is, I mean, you know, you're, it's a, I mean, this is one of the most challenging things I think I, when I teach perfumery, I teach people how to create first. I teach them the basics in like an alcohol based spray because that is the easiest way to create a fragrance because it doesn't really change it. And actually creating scent for creams and lotions is really advanced stuff. And I think often people don't realize, and that's where they start. They're like, oh, you know, I'm creating a skincare product or a body cream and I need to make a perfume for it. And they start at the hardest place. So the practical step that I would say is really learn your materials from an odor perspective. So I teach all of my students to learn their fragrance materials, and I would extend that to anyone who is creating products, a base product, to learn the odor profiles of all of your ingredients that you're using as well, treat them as part of the fragrance. So, you know, your, your, your pomegranate oil or your cranberry oil or your vitamin E really start to train your, train your nose. Actually, it's the same as creating a fragrance where I would get my students to dip smelling strips into, you know, say, the citrus oils that they're going to use and learn, you know, how long they last, how they impact each other. I would do it exactly the same with base oils. You know, a small amount of base oil in a little cup and like smell it and write some notes, like write the notes on, on how you perceive it. Is there anything that it smells like, is it nutty, is it greasy, is it fatty? So it's obviously not going to be as in depth as if you're evaluating an essential oil. And then try it on skin as well. How does it, does it smell different in the bottle to how it smells on skin? Because that is one of the things that is, you know, I know that your students are going to struggle with as well, is that you might get a product where, you know, the product's great, the scent smells great, you lift off the lid, it smells amazing. Then when you put it on skin, you get this kind of like base odor coming through. All of those things need to be taken into consideration. And I would always say, like, don't feel like this is, this should be easy. I mean, this is a challenge. Like, this is the hardest thing. Even, you know, huge companies struggle with this on a day to day basis. So, you know, don't feel bad. You know, don't feel like you're getting it wrong or you don't know enough because it's a challenge. And the only way you're going to know is to experiment. I mean, there are certain things that you can take into account, and that's something that obviously we don't have time for. And I go into more depth in my courses. But looking at solubility of the oils, whether they're more soluble in water or oil, that's going to affect the balance. So a good experiment would be to make up your scent and try it in some like a perfume, like denatured ethanol. Put it in that, smell it and then try it in an oil. Smell it and then try it in something like a balm that's like an anhydrous balm with oil and beeswax. And then try in a shower gel like a detergent product. And what you'll find is that it will smell completely different in all of them. And so the reality is that when a company is pre. Is creating a, a product line that's all got the same fragrance in, it's not one fragrance. It's rarely one fragrance.

Oh, wow. So can, can products also smell different in different packaging?

Yes, it's more. So what it is to do is something called headspace. So what we're actually smelling, when we smell a product, we're not actually. And this is a, this is, this might be a little bit of a something to you. Some people may have heard this before, so if you've done one of my courses, you'll have heard me talk about headspace. But when you smell something. So just. I know you guys can't see this, but just for, just for the, to help me describe it. So say you've got a cup, cup of hot water, boiling water, and you've put a couple of drops of lavender oil in it. And then you, you smell the, the cup. And so what you're actually smelling is the headspace is the gap above the water. So you're not sticking your face into it. You're not actually smelling the water itself. You're smelling the vapor that's rising. And so if you are looking at a product, the smell that, the, the aroma that you'll get will be based on the amount of head space in the packaging. So say, for example, you've got a jar that's got a very, very wide neck, you're going to get a lot more head space than if you've got a small essential oil bottle with a dropper cap in it. Yeah. And so that is. So it's totally going to vary. So I would say that when you're evaluating a product, and this is something that I used to do like for. So when we used to work on a fabric conditioner fragrance, we would have to evaluate in the bottle. So if someone was going to like lift that cap off in the supermarket and smell it, what does that smell like? So that would be the first evaluation. So when you're developing a fabric conditioner, so you want to be able to. So you want to make sure that the scent is great. The customer likes the scent from the bottle. We would then need to test it in use. So we would wash some fabric in a hot water with the fabric conditioner in. So we would want to make sure that the scent really performs in the water. So you'd have a bowl with the water in, and you'd be smelling it and evaluating it from that perspective. You'd also then take the cloth out and you'd wring the cloth out, and you would smell and evaluate that fabric conditioner on the cloth when it's wet, because people will be taking their laundry out of a machine, and then we'd be hanging it to dry, and then we'd evaluate it as a. What the performance is on the dry cloth. And so this, you know, you would. What you want to do when you're creating your product is you want to take that finished product with the scent through all of those different tests. So if you are creating a fragrance for a cleansing balm, for example, you want to take the, you know, use the actual packaging that you're going to use wherever possible. You want to evaluate that product and that smell from the packaging. You want to put it on the. The face, on the skin, because it's no good trying it on your hand and then smelling it, because that's not how a customer would be using it. You want to make sure that the scent performs really well on the face and then rinsing it off and making sure that it. It works well and it doesn't linger. So, you know, there are lots of. So it really depends on the fragrance that you're creating for the product that you're creating. So think about how the number one thing I would guess is, I would say is make sure that you follow your customer's journey through the use of your product and make sure you evaluate it at every stage. So it's not just about how it smells on skin and how it smells in the pot. It's like, how is your customer going to be using this product and what are they going to experience in terms of scent all the way through that journey.

Wow. So this podcast has been so interesting because I feel like I've learned so much about scent, and I don't think I quite appreciated how much of a challenge it is to get. To get this right. Actually, it is.

And, you know, if there's one thing I would say to your listeners, Is like, it's a challenge for the big guys as well. It's not just you. Like, it is hard. It's a challenging thing. And it's something that is really important that you try as much as you can to get it right, because that can make, you know, like, the smell, the scent can make or break your product. You know, like, you've said that. Some of your students said, oh, you know, I've got this amazing formula, but everybody, all my friends think it smells bad. Like, that's ultimately gonna. It is, it's gonna. Unless you have. I mean, it depends. Unless, you know, there are some brands that use that as a marketing point and a tool. It's like, look, we don't put anything, any scent in our products. They smell like this because. And you do a big educational thing around that. But. And some people will be okay with that, but you are going to cut a chunk of potential customers out because some people are just like, well, you know, it might be great, but actually, I can't bear to use something that smells that bad on my face every day. And this is especially important for face care products because you want to feel amazing. If you're spending a lot of money on something that's natural and it's organic, like, it has to be a lovely experience as well.

Yeah. So I'm just, you know, there's so many things that people have to consider then in their formulations. You know, like you said, you know, texture, efficacy, smell. It's, it's, it's such a, it's such a multifaceted journey in developing these products. And I think, like I said earlier, I don't think I quite appreciated how important the scent part could be. So it obviously takes some art.

Yeah. And also it's not just about whether you put. I mean, even if you are creating a fragrance, a product that doesn't have any scent in it or any essential oil or minimal, you know, you still, the aroma, like the smell of it is still something that you have to take into consideration. You know, is this acceptable for my particular customer demographic and test it.

Yeah.

And listen. Well, you know, everything has to be a value. You know, you have to do like a complete 360, 60, you know, evaluation on your product before you, you take it to market. Really. And you really have to listen to your customer demographic. And I know it's sort of slightly outside of the scope of, of perfumery, but from a product development perspective, like, one of the things that I would say is make sure that you are getting feedback or evaluations from your target customer as well. Yeah, because it might be, you know, it might be the, you know, your friends all say that it's, oh, it's great or it's not great. Are they your target customer? And this is something that I, you know, I go into a lot more other things with my students as well as perfumery, but it's like, make sure they're your audience, like, because I might say, oh, yeah, it's great, I love it, but they're not your target customer. So really you want to make sure that you get it in front of or you get the evaluations from people that really are your, your demographic who are going to understand your message and are going to give you really good and valid feedback because everyone has an opinion. And I see this so much in Facebook groups where people say, oh, you know, what do you think? Or I mean, from a perspective of logos and what have you. But it's the same for fragrance and the same for performance of product as well. You know, make sure that you're asking the opinions of the right people, not just the general passersby who are never going to buy it anyway.

Absolutely, absolutely. I always tell people that friends and family are probably not the most reliable givers of feedback.

The people who are willing to part with cash for it are the ones that you want to be asking.

Absolutely. And I think that people who are your target audience and people kind of that are not within your immediate circle can often give you feedback that you might not have considered before.

Yeah, I think that's a really important one in terms of scent as well. Your friends and your family, the people who are cheering you on, the people that want you to do well are not necessarily going to say, actually, or they might, it depends on, you know, who they are. You know, some might be more critical and some actually might go, oh, yeah, it's great, it's great. And then you might think that you've got this amazing smelling product, but then the person who, you know, you're hoping to sell it to, it's not what, what they want. And so benchmarking is really important as well in terms of smell. And that's one of the things that I'm sure your students do, you look at, okay, who am I going to be? Who is my product going to be sitting on the shelf alongside? What are my benchmarks? You know, who do I aspire to? You know, what, what is my customer already buying? And look at the sense of those products as well. And like, where can you improve on them, where can you make them better? Because, you know, it's, you know, obviously it's such a crowded marketplace that you have to do everything you can to be different and stand out. And I think if you've got companies that are not really paying that much attention to the aesthetics and the smell, that can be a real, you know, key selling point for. For a brand if you can get your, you know, your customer hooked into loving your product because it makes them feel good, because it smells amazing and it feels amazing and it does the job. And I think nowadays, you know, a great performance of a product is seen as, you know. Well, yeah, of course, that baseline, it has to work and it has to be amazing. So where else can you stand out? And I think it's hard for an indie to stand out in terms of packaging because of minimum order quantities and that kind of thing. And so we're always looking for every single little thing that can help us, you know, create a better experience for the customer so that they keep coming back for more as well.

So paying attention to the scent can really elevate your product.

Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, I think it's one of those things that, you know, if you're in the industry or if you've been in the industry, but it's not necessarily something that you think is important, especially in the naturals community, because there is this kind of, like, you know, I said before, you know, demonization of scent, and I think a lot of people don't understand its power. And, yeah, it doesn't have to be synthetic. You can do it. Absolutely. With naturals. And. Yeah. But it is something that you need to take into consideration for sure.

Yeah. Okay. I think we've covered everything now. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule. And this is by far one of the most interesting podcasts I've ever recorded.

I feel like.

Yeah, I feel like I've learned so much, and I hope that our community enjoys it. It as much as I have.

Yeah, I hope so, too. And, you know, I'm easy to find. If you've got any questions, you can always find me on Facebook or Instagram or what have you. I'm quite easy to find on social.

Media, and we're gonna tag, obviously all of Karen's website details, and all of her Facebook and social media details will be in the show notes that accompany this podcast. So if you think you might want to take one of her courses, if you want to enlighten yourself even further on the world of scent get in contact because she tells me she's always ready to answer questions and queries and to share her knowledge with the wider community. So thanks again, Karen.

Thank you so much.

Thanks again for listening to our interview with Karen Gilbert. I hope that you enjoyed it and that you're thinking a little bit more about how to make your natural and organic products smell lovely as well as feel lovely on the skin. If you want to join in the global green beauty conversation, then head over to formulabotanica.com you can also check us out on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram Formula Botanica and join our free Facebook group, Skincare Entrepreneur Mastermind. Once again, thank you for listening.

Sam.