EP35. Can organic skincare ever be high performance?

Hello, and welcome to the Formula Botanica Green Beauty Conversations podcast. My name is Gemma. I'm your host, and I'm also the relationship manager over at Formula Botanica. If you want to find out a little bit more about who we are and what we do, head over to formulabotanica.com and check out our free sample class. In this episode, I am interviewing the fabulous Karen Behnke from Juice Beauty. Juice Beauty is one of the pioneering brands in naturals and organics, and they were started over 13 years ago. So I put all my toughest questions to Karen, and I hope that you enjoy what she has to say about natural and organic beauty. Hello, and welcome to the Green Beauty Conversations podcast. Karen.

Hi, Gemma. How are you? It's great to talk to you from California.

I know. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm thrilled that you were able to make time. And Juice Beauty is a name that many of our students and wider community know. You've been going for 13 years now, so you're one of the kind of pioneers in natural and organic skincare.

You know, it's funny, my. The team kept saying, boy, pioneer keeps popping up when people talk about you. And of course, at first I was horrified because I think, you know, being in my sixth decade, I thought, I'm already the oldest person in beauty. But. But then my team was like, seize the moment. So we actually put pionee in our mission statement. Now, you know that we've been pioneering organic and natural skincare.

Yes. And like I said, it's fabulous to have us here. And obviously, I know about Juice Beauty and a bit about you, but for the benefit of our listeners, if you could just introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about your background and why you started Juice Beauty all those years ago.

Sure. Well, you know, it's a lot of good ideas come from being pregnant. Right. And I'll circle back to that.

But indeed, indeed.

And with women, of course. But, you know, I had dedicated my whole life to health and wellness. And in the early 80s, I started one of the first health and corporate wellness companies in the country. And that was designed to go into corporations and do health, fitness, wellness, cholesterol screenings, you know, et cetera, et cetera, programs. And, you know, so that was. I was in health and wellness and boards and on the board of 24 Hour Fitness, a big fitness chain here, and for 20 years and really hyper focused on nutrition and fitness. And then, then I met my husband in my late 30s, and we had started having babies in my 40s and that was the first time that I had ever read the back of a beauty products label. So here at Hyper Focus Nutrition Fitness, doing triathlons, you know, Whole Foods was going in strong in the United States at that point, yet I was still slathering lots of things that I shouldn't have been all over my face and body. And really, the pregnancy helped me realize what was, you know, it brought that to the forefront. And in a moment of insanity, you know, well, first of all, I researched it for years, and then in a moment of insanity, bought the name and started the company from scratch. And I could tell you the basic premise we started on, but that was the whole foundation of it. Just really realizing that your skin absorbs over 60% or whatever the percentage is your skin absorbs what is placed on it. And that has been proven by many studies, including the Hermosa study at UC Berkeley. And so, you know, what you place on your skin, you want it to be healthful.

Yeah. I mean, it's the largest organ in your body, right? So, yeah. So you started Juice 13 years ago and.

Yeah, so 13 and a half now.

13 and a half. So you were probably one of the first kind of organic brands, I guess, in the U.S. and so obviously now we're talking, you know, people talk about the massive growth in the natural and organic sector, and, you know, particularly in the US Things have really taken off. But what was it like when you started an organic brand 13 years ago? I mean, what was the market like? And how was juice received initially?

Well, it was very, very, very difficult. First of all, it was similar to starting a corporate wellness business in the early 80s. Everyone said, well, what? What's wellness? You know, and so it's the same thing. People are like, huh, organic? Oh, well, I use organic. I use xyz. And I would always say, you know, they don't talk about organic. They're not organic. It's not even. And so, you know, first of all, people thought I was a little crazy. And secondly, the beauty brands all asked me, why would you go to so much work that is way too hard? And, you know, thirdly, the customers didn't quite understand it until I would say, when you go into Whole Foods, for instance, and you're choosing between an organic green apple and a natural or conventional green apple, what's the difference? And people always say, oh, pesticides. I said, well, it's the same with organically farmed ingredients for beauty. So then they kind of got it. But, you know, my original goal was to have the highest efficacy Skincare and to pass meet or exceed conventional chemical skincare. I knew we could pass the naturals, but I really wanted to meet or exceed conventional chemical skincare and still have that luxurious and efficacious, you know, that luxurious application. But yeah, our first customer was a small pharmacy chain, Pharmaca, and they're still a customer and they were really the only ones since they were a wellness pharmacy that really understood what we were doing.

Yeah. So what is it like now? Because obviously, you know, organics took off in a big way and particularly I know in the US you know, because obviously you have a lot of GM things. So the organic market has been able to obviously showcase itself as being non GM and appeals to like a really broad customer base within the US So do you feel like you're received in a different way now?

We definitely are. And you know, we have over 2000 stores now with our retailers, so we're kind of coast to coast and up throughout Canada. Our main distribution is North America, but we have a few great online partners in the UK and then some great retailers in Scandinavia and a little bit of Hong Kong. And so we are spreading a little bit around the world. And we just opened in with Mecca Australia. So very exciting. But you know, in the United States, in the beginning, of course, the coasts grabbed us, you know, the east coast, the west coast, you know, the big cities and that's it. And now coast to coast, we, you know, some of our best selling stores are in Iowa or in Kentucky or you know, as well as of course, San Francisco, Louisiana and New York, you know, of course, but we really spread throughout the United States and including Texas. That was a hard nut to crack. But you know, what happened was we spent so much time on the formulations and for our moisturizers made with organic ingredients. And for instance, we spent so much time getting the wonderful slip and feel with coconut alkanes and organic grapeseed. So it would feel better than petroleum and silicones and dimethicones in conventional chemical or that we would use, you know, vegetable derived hyaluronic acid or vegetable olive derived squalene. And so it would work better than chemically derived, you know, chemical, those ingredients. And so we spent so much time finding better alternatives to conventional chemical ingredients that work but that aren't good for potentially you or the Earth, that I don't think in the beginning people even knew it was actually they were putting organic ingredients on their skin. So we developed a following with our efficacy for our serums, our green apple peel, our stem cellular booster serum and then what followed was our, were our moisturizers, our stem cellular moisturizer, our green apple moisturizer, and then our, we were first to market with stem cellular CC creams, beautiful tinted zinc SPF CC creams. And people, they started using it and they're like really? There's no silicones and dimethicones in this and there's no artificial dyes and no, you know, no parabens and et cetera, et cetera. So I think in the beginning it was people just bought it because they liked the products.

Yeah, I mean, talking about, you know, the development of juice beauty and all the different products and ranges. I know that you guys have done quite a lot of scientific studies on the credibility of organics and the like you say the efficacy. So I wondered if you could just expand a little bit on the types of studies that you've done and how you use them to educate consumers on the efficacy and benefits of your products.

Oh, thank you. Because we are a science based brand and it's very important to me, you know, with my wellness company also we partnered with leading universities, return on investment for those programs. And that was important. And so whenever you're on the kind of cutting edge of industries, you really have to over prove yourself really, you know, and so that's what we've had to do. And for instance, so we of course are manufacturing labs. So we formulate everything in house and source and you know, we have three chemists in house and nine on contract. But so we use very, very dedicated manufacturing labs that have organic lines, dedicated. But for clinical efficacy testing we purposely use the same labs that the big conventional chemical brands do because we want the same scientists, the same visual PhDs looking at everything and instrument measuring. And so for instance, we recently put our green apple age defy serum to test and we tested it against a leading natural and a leading conventional chemical antioxidant serum. And we found that it performed 2.7 times better, 168% better at providing antioxidant protection. So. And that was clinically validated. It was unbelievable in the lab. And you know, just testing it against free radical neutrons, it just, it was phenomenal. So 2.7 times better or 168% better. So in the lab measured the capacity of antioxidants to protect against a protein from damage by free radicals. So they measure inhibition time and inhibition degree. And so it was a very clinical test. And so it's kind of like, why not, you know, if you can win with, you know, healthful ingredients that you're putting on your skin that are healthful to you and the, and animals and the planet and it's a higher efficacy and it feels good and everything. It's kind of like, why not, you know.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess for us, one of the main issues that we come across as one of the main kind of sticking points for some people is that they don't think naturals and organics are effective. And I was reading a book from one of the leading journalists here in the UK and she said, oh, you know, I've never been a fan of naturals just because I'm a fan of efficacy. And I'm wondering if, you know, did you do some of these scientific studies because you wanted to put that question, you know, put those doubts to rest? Really?

Definitely. Because, you know, when I used to go around to the big, you know, magazine labels, you know, Vogue and Elle and Marie Claire and all those beautiful magazines, who I love now, I mean, just absolutely allure, they're all so wonderful. But in the beginning they kind of thought, huh, well, I know it should be good for me, but you know, I really want something that works. Same type of thing that you're, you're describing. So I would leave one of our green apple peels or one of our serums for them and inevitably our full strength peel would send them over the edge and they would call me back and they'd go, holy to moly, that thing is strong. And I, I said, yeah, it's, it's, you know, those organic fruit acids really work, don't they? And so it's funny, at about year four or five, when our clinicals, you know, started to meet or exceed conventional chemical efficacy, that's when that kind of, you know, oh, does it really work? That dropped for us, which was awesome. And then fast forward to, you know, Ulta Beauty is our biggest retailer here in the United States and Sephora in Canada. And then we were so proud when Neiman Marcus and Bloomingdale's recruited us. And yeah, Neiman Marcus said, you know, we want you set the standard for clinical organics. And I almost jumped up and down. He said, oh, everyone knows your products work better than, you know, conventional chemical. And I was like, oh my God, that's what we've been working so hard for. So it was just so exciting to us. So yes, it was. You know, you have to work harder when you're kind of breaking new ground.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting that term clinical organics. Yes. Yeah, I mean it's interesting that they're choosing to kind of refer to it that way. And it, I mean, it's nice in a way that they can recognize that, I mean, Neiman Marcus are now stocking Le Premier, which is the plum oil serum. And we interviewed them as well and they, you know, they were saying at first, you know, efficacy was questioned, but they did studies as well.

Oh good, good, good. Yeah, yeah.

And could prove it. And you know, when you started Juice all those years ago, did you think that you would have to do such a big piece on the science to convince people that it was going to.

Work for them, you know, after? Because, you know, I started it when I had already had some success with my wellness company and been on a couple boards and things like that. So having been through it with my corporate wellness company, again, think back to the early 1980s in corporate worksite wellness, people thought I was insane. So having had to prove return on investment for that and workers comp reduction and you know, all those things that we had to prove that getting employees healthier would pay off off for employers, I kind of was prepared for it. So we started from day one with, you know, being a science based brand and really looking at the science. But it was hard, you know, pioneering this in the beginning. Zinc was heavy, for instance, and cosmetic grade zinc and it was very heavy. And now fast forward our stem cellular CC creams. You really can't tell the difference between, you know, zinc stem cellular CC cream and you know, dimethicone silicone artificial dye tinted moisturizer that has stained, you know, from one of the big brands where they spend so much time getting the slip and feel and colors and everything right? And as far as the, you know, how it goes on. But I tell you where you can tell the difference is how it feels on your skin and how it performs and how your skin can breathe and how much better, you know, your skin will look day after day after day because you're feeding your skin, you're not masking it and suffocating it.

I'm a big fan of telling people about the feel of a product. And you know, how people always ask me, what are your favorite beauty products? And I'm like, it's the ones that make me feel different. It's the ones that make my skin feel different. And I can tell when people have put a lot of effort into the formulation because I get to try quite a few different things nowadays. You know, you get, I mean, probably like you as well, being in wellness and beauty. You probably tried A lot, because before you made your own, so you get a feeling of what makes a good formulation and what makes you feel good when you use something and what makes your skin feel different. And I think it can really set you apart from a brand because people know they do.

And it's, you know, I think that's probably what we hear the most too, is that people are surprised that it does, you know, feel as great or better than the, you know, the $500 moisturizers or what have you, but most importantly, that their skin starts to improve, whether it's our age defy products or our skin care or our blemish clearing skin care. And then of course, four years ago, we came out with makeup. So we were probably one of the first to come out with makeup made with certified organic ingredients and then plant pigments. And, you know, we used skincare technology in our makeup because again, not coming from beauty, it wouldn't occur to me to not have all the beautiful skincare technology in your makeup products. So if you're putting a foundation on, you know, we put age defy serum in it, it so, you know, you're getting that beautiful coverage and foundation, but you're also getting serum that's working for your face all day long.

Yeah, it's a perfect partnership. Really.

Yes.

Yeah. So one thing I wanted to just quickly ask you, and go back on quickly is you mentioned that you have three chemists in house and you manufacture your products in house. Really?

We don't manufacture in house, but we do everything but put it online. So we formulate, we source, we color match, we do everything in house. And then we work with about nine manufacturing labs that are on contract that have dedicated lines because you have to clean a certain way for organic products and all those things. So we do all the formulations and everything. And then of course, now we're taking it all the way that we bought a juice beauty farm.

Yes, I was just going to ask you about that. I mean, obviously just going back to, to the formulation question. I mean, it's interesting that you still decided to keep doing the formulations yourself. A lot of the bigger brands who, well, organic and natural brands who have gotten a bit bigger, have actually outsourced it all. So I wanted to just have a chat about why you wanted to keep it in house.

You know, again, I can't imagine doing it any other way, you know, because we have so much fun with. We have so much innovation coming from our amazing marketing and product development team. And that's where I spend a Lot of my time, I absolutely love that area. And so it's just so much fun and dreaming up the ideas. And we have what we call a little pre lab at our corporate headquarters. We're always mixing and looking at everything and cooking and weighing and, you know, cooking ingredients, that is. And so it's just. That's part of the fun of it. But we also want to control our supply chain as much as possible. And so we try to source as much as possible from the western region of the United States. And that happens to be where a lot of great organic farming is conducted, and a lot of great oversight, too, from the government. So from what I understand, there's different parts of the country aren't quite as rigorous, but apparently the west coast is quite rigorous with oversight. So, like, we buy our organic green apples from Washington state. A wonderful farmer up there. And now we bought a Juice Beatty farm. And we're so excited. It's in Sonoma county in Healdsburg, and we've got a beautiful branded farmhouse or organic, sustainable farmhouse. And I mean, everything in it is organic linens and, you know, couches, etc, from our partners that we worked with. But we will. We're converting it from the highest level of sustainability to certified organic. So as soon as that process is done, which will take a couple years, we'll start sourcing all aspects of our grape and olive from our farm.

Wow. So did you want to do the farm because you wanted to have more control over the supply chain, or is it just that you're so invested in, you know, growing and managing the ingredients that go into the products? Or was it like a combination of both?

Really, I think a combination. And we have this lovely farmhouse that really, you know, the whole farm and farmhouse brings our brand to life. So it's brand immersion. It's a power of, you know, really showing our antioxidant, rich, organic ingredients. So, for instance, if you come to California, we'd love to host you up there. Yes.

Oh, my God, we'd love to. We've got, like a tour of California to do because we've got other people that we know that have farms and organic farms in that area as well. They keep saying, come over and you can spend the whole day on the farm. It'll be amazing.

Please put us on your itinerary. We'd love it.

So are you planning on having, like, workshops and things? Do you see beauty HQ at the farm?

You know, possibly. Right now we're just focused on, you know, entertaining people there and really explaining our brand. More. And the intense scientific conversion from, thank God, it's a fifth level of sustainability, which is the highest in Sonoma, to organics. We don't have to deal with any glyphosate or Roundup. None of that has been sprayed on the farm. So we're starting at a really great base, so there's a lot of science behind it. And my husband is a cardiologist and he just retired, and for the first time he's getting an involved in the business just from the farm aspect. So he's managing the vineyard and really managing the conversion. It's really been, you know, amazing science for him.

Yeah, it's such an exciting journey. We've got so many people who write to us and say that they would like to grow their own ingredients and make skincare. So chatting to you, it seems like, you know, it is possible. There are. You can do it, you can find a way to do it.

It's hard. I mean, we're. It's just. And of course, we'll continue with our. I mean, we have over. We have thousands of ingredients, so we'll be continuing with our valued organic farmer suppliers, of course, but we will look forward to getting all aspects of grape and olive from our own farm, which will be fun. So stay tuned. We've got some exciting things ahead of us.

Yay. I can't wait to see more from the farm. I mean, when I was chatting to you about coming on the podcast, I definitely looked up because one of the things was like, oh, Carol just bought a farm. And I was like, oh, let's have a look at this.

Well, now you have to really have a look.

Immediately. One final question for you that I just wanted to get your input on is the organic market versus the shift towards vegan and cruelty free. So I was asked this question at an event over the weekend about the organic market, specifically in the uk, and I just asked, wanted your input to see if it was similar in the US Because I feel like recently the conversation has shifted over to vegan and cruelty free.

Yeah, I think you're right. You know, it's funny because we have our eco values and vegan and cruelty free is one of them. You know, our foundation is organic because we feel like you can really avoid GMOs and toxic pesticides and, you know, all the things, but you have to have a more. What I thought was always a beautiful organic brand from your neck of the woods, but they use synthetic fragrance, which I was like, why would you go to all that trouble to work with organic ingredients and then you pile in synthetic fragrance, which is a known endocrine disruptor. So everything, you know, we try to take it all the way from no synthetic fragrance to of course vegan and no animal testing. When we first started out, we had a couple products with sustainably sourced beeswax and we actually even eliminated that which I got to tell you, makes lip products lipstick very difficult to do. But we figured out how to hold up lipstick lip with great organic grapeseed. So it's, you know, we always tell people don't wind it all the way up, you know, but other than that it works perfectly. But yeah, so we're vegan, we're no animal testing, we're PETA certified, leaping bunny certified, et cetera. So you know, it is, I think it shifts from. Because I think some people started trying to work with organic ingredients too and it's very hard. And so I think the conversation shift more to two different areas which are a little bit easier, which is vegan and no animal testing and which makes sense. And then also with the names, you know, first it was natural and then there's no definition of natural, of course. So then clean was kind of invented and there's no definition of clean. But people are trying to define it. And so we just try to stay ahead of that game with having the majority of every product that we make made with certified organic ingredients. And then we take it all the way with no artificial dyes, no synthetic fragrance. And we list about 30 the unworthy 30 on our website. But then if you click all the way to the bottom on our clean beauty section, there's almost 4,000 ingredients that we would never use because they're commonly used because they're harmful to plants, animals or humans. So we try to. And then we take it all the way too with sustainable company practices. We're really working hard on our packaging and you know, we're just, we use a lot of glass, we're converting, starting the conversion. Actually we started in January for go to bioresin tubes and of course we already use plant based ink and FSC paper. And so we try to do all aspects of that. And it's hard to scream it all out though. It's a crowded conversation.

Yeah, I mean do you think that consumers in the, let's term it the green beauty movement at this stage are becoming more demanding of having, you know, a cradle to grave approach? So they want to know about your ingredients, the efficacy, they want to know about the packaging, they want to know it's cruelty Free. I mean, do you feel that the consumer is asking for a different product say than maybe 13 years ago than when you started?

I think so. I'm not sure the consumer can sift through all the marketing hype. You know, that's the issue. It's very, very difficult to sift through all of that marketing stuff. So. But yes, I think people want that more and they want to feel good about the company that they're purchasing from. And you know, it's funny, when I started years ago saying, well, I to want buy anything because it's Monsanto or something and people would look at me like I was cross eyed and you know. But I really think it's important to support companies that are trying to do the right thing.

Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's just the same with the vegan kind of movement or however you want to. I'm always wary of calling something a movement. I think it's probably like, you know, I don't know what the correct term is.

For me, it's a way of life. It's a way of life personally and professionally.

Yeah. You know, 10 years ago or even five years ago, you know, it wasn't really a thing. You know, people were sort of like when people. I remember someone talking about launching a vegan makeup brand and people are like, well, why would you make it vegan?

Yeah. And some of the conventional chemical brands never even used animal products, but they use a lot of chemicals. But then they promote vegan. Well, it's vegan, but it has, you know, artificial dyes, artificial fragrance, parabens. Oh my gosh, some of them still, you know, there's a lot of lead in a lot of them, those ingredients and you know, so on and so on. So that's what's kind of interesting. You really have to know what, you really have to understand what the company's about. Because someone can tout vegan but have some very, very, very harmful ingredients in their products.

Absolutely. And I was having a chat with a vegan beauty blogger on the weekend and she was saying the same thing, that when she first started buying vegan products, she thought that everything was going to be okay just because it didn't have any animal derived product ingredients. But then when she started researching the ingredients that were in there, she was like, okay, this doesn't really fit with my lifestyle either. And so I think like the way that you're going with your company in terms of, you know, you're looking at every aspect like vegan, cruelty free, organic. I think that I can see a lot of other brands going, doing this as well because they understand that vegan doesn't just mean the absence of animal products.

Right.

That's not all it means. It's far more than just that.

We just always try to do the right thing and that we also help support two nonprofits. They're very large, but the Breast Cancer Prevention Partners and Environmental Working Group EWG and bcpp, because they do so much research in the environment, and so it's so important to us to help support them. They both happen to be headquartered in the. In the San Francisco Bay area, which makes it nice also, but we probably would have chosen them anyway. But I also want to mention, because everyone asks, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow, of course, is one of our shareholders and partners in Juice Beauty, and she helped us come out with our phytopigments makeup. And she was our creative director for a few years, which was unbelievably valuable. She has incredible taste and, you know, just beautiful taste. I know that she was in your neck of the woods for about a decade a while ago, so I'll mention that. But of course, she is running her own company, goop, and we're running Juice Beauty, but we're still very supportive of one another. And I just. She was great for our business. She's just got beautiful taste.

Yeah. And a great ambassador because I think that she's married the beauty and wellness together really nicely. There's always been this question about how beauty is related to wellness. And, you know, if you look at beauty historically, I think it always has been related to wellness somehow. It's just that our conception of what wellness means is so different. I mean, like you said, look at what wellness might have mean to people in the 80s.

Right? Right.

And what does it mean to people now? And I think that GOOP has married that very well together.

They have, and it's great. That's why we're a good fit together. But because our Juice Beauty was born out of wellness, you know, I dedicated my life to wellness and helped pioneer that whole wellness industry and hopefully helping to pioneer the organic industry now. And so it's, you know, I didn't start at the beauty counter in New York like a lot of founders do, that they're dreaming of their own brand. I was in wellness and fit and doing triathlons and just looking for great products. And while I was doing all my sports as well as having babies and, you know, running nutrition and fitness businesses, so it really, every aspect of our brand really you know, screams wellness and nutrition and fitness.

So, yeah, it's interesting how they can all go together because one of the questions that popped up was that people didn't feel beauty was related to wellness enough. And I felt that it has been related to wellness quite well. And especially in the U.S. i would say there is more of a clear relationship in how the retailers work, in how the brands work with the retailers to promote the wellness aspects of their brands. It's been slightly slower here in the uk. I think it's just because we don't have the same amount of retailers as you guys do. Obviously, we have quite a few online ones. Like you mentioned, you have some online partners here in the. In the uk. So it's interesting, like you say that your whole brand was rooted in the very idea of how your beauty products can relate to your wellness.

It is. It's just in everything that we do with a brand is really related to wellness. And that's what's fun about the Juice Beauty Farm. It brings the whole California wellness lifestyle to the forefront, which has been my lifestyle, and it just brings it, you know, front and center, which is just. Is so exciting.

Yes, it is, absolutely. Thank you so much, Karen, for joining us today. Like I said, I really appreciate you taking your time out to share some of your knowledge and your story about juice.

Thank you so much. And I'm in admiration of everything your company is doing. Thank you for taking the time to interview us and I will see you in Sonoma.

Yes.

All right, thank you.

Bye.

Bye. Bye.

Thanks so much for listening and joining us in in this fabulous interview with Karen from Juice Beauty. I really hope that you enjoyed the interview and her input and that you got some insight into what the organics market might have been like 13 years ago. If you are interested in Formula Botanica and what we do, then please head over to formulabotanica.com check out our free sample class. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Formula Botanica. We'd love to hear from you. And once again, thank you so much for subscribing and listening to our podcast. And thank you to all our listeners for making this podcast such a success.

Sam.