EP37. Do you need to be a Cosmetic Chemist to Formulate Skincare?

Hello and welcome to the Formula Botanica Green Beauty Conversations podcast. My name is Gemma and I'm your host and I'm also the relationship manager over at Formula Botanica. If you want to find out a bit more about who we are and what we do, then head over to formulabatanica.com and check out our free sample class. In this episode, Lorraine and I are discussing why you do not need to be a chemist to be a product formulator. I hope you find the discussion lively and informative. Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. Lorraine, hello.

Thank you for having me again. I always love being on our podcast.

We love having you. So we're talking about a very hot topic today, aren't we?

We are quite a controversial one as well.

Very controversial. Gets lots of airtime, lots of column.

Inches, that it certainly does.

So cosmetic chemist versus product formulator, or chemist versus formulator, why do we think it is such a hot topic at the moment?

I think there are a lot of people in the beauty industry who want to start their own skincare or hair care brands who feel that they have to be a chemist to become a formulator. And I think it's certainly something we see a lot of at Formula Botanica. You know, we get a lot of people write to us and they say, will I be able to call myself a chemistry once I've done your course, or do I need to be a chemist in order to start my skincare brand? And it just keeps on coming back. So very hot topic. And that's why we wanted to cover it today.

Indeed. So I just wanted to talk a little bit about, give everyone some context about the kind of topic within the green beauty movement. So there has obviously throughout history been sort of an issue with people making it seem like they have qualifications or attached to cosmetic chemistry in some way and have built that into their business. And one that I kind of keep coming back to, that Lorraine's probably bored of hearing is the Helena Rubenstein case, where she very deliberately linked herself to the cosmetic science and cosmetic chemistry industries and deliberately posed in white coats with chemistry instruments and formulation in formulation labs to very much cultivate an aura or a Persona of being attached to being involved in cosmetic chemistry. And that, in fact, wasn't true. She didn't have any qualifications or a background. But there has been a trend that has kind of followed where people have felt almost like a pressure to link themselves to science, to chemistry in some way without necessarily having degrees or postgraduate diplomas or whatever in those industries. Why do you think that Might be.

It's a good question. I think there's still this sort of almost chemistry shaming in the industry where people feel that you have to have these formal qualifications in order to be able to make skincare or hair care or makeup products safely. And I'm very much of the opinion that's not the case. And I've had that criticism thrown at me before as well, saying, you know, how can you be the director of Formula Botanica? You, you're not a cosmetic chemist and I'm not. And I've always been very clear about that. I went to university and did a degree in biological sciences. And yes, I sat in the benches at university and took chemistry courses as part of that degree, but I'm certainly not a chemist and I never have claimed to be one. But it's something that people still feel that you have to be in order to teach formulation. But there's a very clear distinction between cosmetic chemistry and skincare, hair care, makeup formulation, which I think people get a bit confused by.

And it's why we wanted to have this podcast really, isn't it? And I think, I mean, like, as you've mentioned, this comes up in our forums a lot. I know that in our last enrollment period, someone left us a comment and said, oh, well, you know, here I am taking nth chemistry degree and diploma when I could have just taken your course in a sort of slightly sarcastic way. And we see that coming up kind of again and again, this confusion, this idea of like, you have to be a cosmetic chemist, you have to be a cosmetic scientist. And it's come up again recently in the press where a high profile, high end brand in the green beauty space in the US came under a lot of criticism for saying that they had graduated from a university with a biochemistry degree and that they were a cosmetic chemist or a cosmetic scientist. And in fact, it turned out that they, they weren't. And the press kind of kicked off a little bit about this. And I know, Lorraine, you want to say a few things about this because I know we had a lot of discussion about this at Formula Botanica. What was your kind of view on that? Why they were so upset, weren't they?

I was quite shocked, actually, by some of the articles I was reading. I mean, one article in particular basically said, you cannot make skincare. You should not be running a skincare brand if you don't have formal chemistry qualifications. And I thought, wow, you know, do you want to go 100 years back in time and tell that to Estee Lauder? And Elizabeth Arden as well. And this is somehow. This idea that you have to have these formal qualifications has come over a matter of decades, and I don't quite know why it's there, but this happened exactly as you said in that particular case as well. And we're not going to name any names because we don't want to shame anyone, because the person in question has grown a very successful brand. She's done extremely well, her products are very popular. And, yeah, she got caught out basically telling people that she had a degree in something that she didn't actually have. And obviously that isn't the right approach. But on the other hand, I can sort of understand why she was put in that position to make, so that she felt as if she had to come out with that statement. So I felt a little bit sorry for the way that the press really attacked her, because at the end of the day, her products are safe, they're stable, they sell well, her customers love them. She probably has a team of chemists working for her by now, given the size of her brand. So I thought it was very unfair, actually. And I really hope that we don't see any more of this, and I hope that podcasts like this one will help dispel some of these myths that you have to be a chemist in order to run a beauty brand, because it's just not true. And as I've said to you, and you know many of the team at Formula Botanica many times before, the best formulator I know is actually our education manager, Timmy, and she's not a chemist. And she'd be the first to put up her hands and say, I'm not a chemist, but, my goodness, the products she makes are just exquisite. And I would hate to think that there would be someone out there who says, you can't possibly make skincare because you haven't sat in the benches of a university for four years to learn all about chemistry.

Indeed. And I mean, let's take it from a safety point of view quickly, before we dive into other questions, is that certainly here, and I'm referring to the eu, is that whether a product is formulated by Jo Bloggs at home or whether it's formulated by a cosmetic chemist, it still has to undergo the same safety testing and safety assessments.

Absolutely. And you know, you have to comply with the law wherever you are in the world, and every single regulatory authority wants you to create safe cosmetics. Now, admittedly, as you say, there are more checks and balances here in the EU than there are in certain other parts of the world. I'm thinking particular of the us, and we covered a whole podcast on this. I think it was our third one on how to comply with cosmetics regulations. So do go and have a listen to that one if you haven't heard it yet. But if you follow those steps that we talked about in that particular podcast, you can create perfectly safe, stable and sellable cosmetics anywhere in the world and still have a very successful business even without being a chemist.

Exactly. So, actually, that's a great, great point to move on to our next question for you, which is, what does it take to become a chemist?

Right, so the route to becoming a chemist, well, isn't always straightforward if you want to specialise in cosmetic chemistry. And it isn't always easily achieved because there aren't that many degrees out there that actually focus specifically on cosmetic chemistry. But generally the most accepted route to becoming a cosmetic chemist involves going to university and gaining a formal qualification. And what I've seen most cosmetic chemists do is that they go and study chemistry and then they specialize in cosmetic chemistry afterwards. And there are some universities around the world who provide degrees in cosmetic chemistry. There's quite a few here in the uk, there's a few in the us on the whole, though there aren't that many that focus specifically on the cosmetic elements. So you really will have to track down the right one if that's what you want to do. And obviously, studying at university costs tens, if not hundreds of thousands of pounds, dollars, rubles, wherever you are in the world. It's not a cheap way of gaining those skills. And basically, yeah, cosmetic chemistry, cosmetic science is not as widely taught as other scientific subjects like biology or chemistry, which are generally taught at most major universities. So, as I said, for that reason, you'll generally meet chemists who have first achieved qualifications in chemistry and then gone on to specialise. And it will take many, many years. And you'll spend many of those years at universities working in labs, undertaking practical assignments, learning how chemicals work and react. And you generally won't be specializing in organic or natural cosmetics, as this is not a topic that most traditional chemistry degrees have really embraced. Embraced. And I've certainly seen that. I once had someone send me the slides for a cosmetic chemistry lecture in the us, and it had one slide in this whole slide pack that focused on naturals, and it basically said you only add naturals when you want to make marketing claims about the fact that your product is natural. So you are not going to be getting the same type of education in most cosmetic Chemistry degrees yet that may well change as you would at Formula Botanica and maybe in the future we'll partner with a university, who knows, and we'll be able to bring that education to the masses. But yeah, at the moment you have to go to an online course like ours if you really want to specialise in naturals and organics. So generally, if you want to become a chemist, you go through the formal education route basically.

Yeah, yeah. I think there's quite a few postgraduate or master's courses in cosmetics mathematics, separately from your general university degree. I know there's one here in London that's quite popular, but yeah, you generally have to do a master's level qualification to do that. Okay, so moving on, what does it take to be a formulator then?

Right, another good question. So studying to become a formulator is slightly different. So online formulation courses like the ones we offer at Formula Botanica are wonderful. Award winning courses, will teach you how to create your own organic skincare and hair care formulations. But becoming a formulator doesn't necessarily involve learning the detailed chemistry of your ingredients. So there are thousands of indie beauty brands throughout the industry and larger ones as well, and they will show you that it is perfectly possible to start a skincare or hair care business without being a chemist. And obviously we've talked about one example without naming any names, that is just one of many entrepreneurs out there who is really trailblazing without having those chemistry degrees. Now, if you want to formulate, you will of course need to understand some basic chemistry. So for instance, you'll have to know about the ph of your products. And this is something that a lot of formulators really struggle with. It takes some time to get to grips with. Measuring the ph, monitoring the ph, understanding what it is. You'll have to learn all about surfactants and emulsification and chelation. But these are practical skills that can really be taught through experimentation. So I've broken it down into a few steps and I'm going to run through them now. You know, like my steps. I've got three for you. So the first one is that you have to study your ingredients. So if you want to become a formulator as opposed to a recipe follower, you need to take the time to learn how to use your ingredients. Now, it will never be possible to know every single cosmetic ingredient in the industry, because as you know, Gemma, you know, when we go to trade shows like in cosmetics, there are so many booths there with so many different and new ingredients, you feel totally overwhelmed. And sometimes our Students come to us and they're like, well, where is my handbook? With every single cosmetic ingredient in the world. And we go, well, that doesn't exist and we can't make it for you either. In fact, no one can.

No. Not even cosmetic chemists have that.

No. Exactly. So you have to learn how to work with different ingredients and how to study them, and you'll have to trial them. So when that happens, you spend money buying new ingredients, you take the time to experiment with them, and basically there is no quick fix or shortcut. You'll occasionally buy ingredients to test it you don't like, and you may not use all of your ingredients and need to discard them responsibly. You know, we see this in our community as well. Sometimes our students say, oh, I bought 100 grams of this and it stinks and I hate it. Now I have to throw it away. Yeah. That is the nature of becoming a formulator. You are trialing ingredients. Everything takes time. But none of these tests are wasted experiments, of course. Instead, they've helped you learn something new, which is basically the first step in becoming a formulator. And this step takes time. So when you enrol with Formula Botanica, you know, we teach you about how you can research your ingredients, and we do provide an ingredients directory with our courses which has over 100 ingredients detailed in it, quite detailed profiles. But again, it's not exhaustive and it will never be because we just don't have enough hours in the day or enough people to create that directory for the entire industry.

And they're constantly coming up with new ones as well. So, I mean, it just be a job all in itself.

We'd have to employ about five people.

Yes, no, exactly. I mean, if anyone's listening that fancies doing that as a job. Not with us necessarily, but, you know, it doesn't. It's just. It would be very challenging to have a comprehensive cosmetic ingredient directory that includes everything and all the new things that are constantly brought to market. I mean, how many new things did you see it in cosmetics and every other stand, we're saying, oh, new, new, new, new thing, new thing, new combined thing. It's like, what?

So as a formulator, you have to have the skills and learn the skills to research your ingredients, and we teach those skills at Formula Botanica. So my second step is that you have to practice. So when it comes to learning any skill, you have to take the time to do it properly. You cannot create one formulation and expect it to be instantly perfect. Now, I see this all the time again with some of our more impatient students who come in and want to create one formulation and not waste any ingredients and not spend any money on ingredients, and then they instantly want to go and sell that formulation. That is not how you become a formulator. You're going to buy ingredients, you're going to trial them, then you're going to think, okay, well, maybe I'll replace this one for that ingredient instead. Maybe this time I'll use strawberry seed oil instead of avocado oil or whatever it is you're making. It takes time and the most successful beauty products on the market. And I think this is a really important point to note, those have gone through hundreds of iterations before they ended up in your hands. Because if you want your products to be the very, very best, best they can be, then you're going to have to really take the time to perfect them.

And just to back up Lorraine's point there, I met a small brand, a natural brand, at Indie Beauty Expo. And the lady who formulated it told me that it was the 99th time. The formulation I was holding in my hand was the 99th iteration of that cream. That's how much experimentation she put in before she launched it. So 98 failures to get the 99th one.

I love it. And I bet that 99th iteration was beautiful because she'd spent so long perfecting it. And at that point, it's like birthing a child almost, isn't it? At that point you go, this is the very best I could ever make and I'm so proud of it. And this is what I'm going to take to market. And actually, the same goes for chemists working for the big brands in a lab, you know, they might spend five years developing a single product that ends up going to market. That's an extreme case. It generally is a few years, but nonetheless it takes time. And it will be exactly the same for a formulator. So you have to practice to hone your formulation skills before you can do that. And this will involve you learning the basics. So again, we are often sent emails from people saying, when I enrol with you, will I instantly be able to make a vitamin, Vitamin C serum? And the answer to that is no, because first of all, you have to learn how to make a serum, you have to learn how to emulsify, you have to learn the basics before you can start layering in those high performance ingredients. I mean, using vitamin C as an example, it is one of the most unstable ingredients to work with. And so as a novice Formulator, you wouldn't start with that type of formulation until you're completely ready. So you won't be able to create a high performance natural face cream until you've learned how to emulsify. You won't be able to create an effective organic shampoo until you know how to blend surfactants together. And all of these steps take time and practice. So that was my second point. So on to number three is that you have to learn how to test your formulations. So again, you know, you've experimented with your ingredients, you've practiced your formulation skills. Skills. Now you're testing and creating a formulation you like will involve testing different ingredients in different ratios. So first of all, you might, for instance, create a base with a skin feel that you like before you start with the active ingredients, like I just said. And then you have to make sure that your formulation is stable and that it actually holds together for its predicted shelf life. So again, people write to us and they say, right, how long my shelf life for this cream? And we go, well, we don't know because you haven't tested it. You have to go through stability testing in order to be able to put a shelf life on your product. So you also have to make sure that your formulation is microbially stable. So if your product contains water or is likely to come into contact with water during use, you have to send it off for challenge testing, which takes time, which takes costs money, and it takes effort. And if your product fails, you gotta reformulate and send it off again. And that is normal. You cannot again assume that every single product you make will instantly sell through all of its tests. Because, you know, like Gemma just said, if you go through 99 iterations, there's a lot of testing involved with that.

Yes.

So, yeah, as I said, at any point during these trials, your formulation might completely fail and you'll need to keep go back to the drawing board to start again. And yeah, we frequently meet people who are in a huge rush to launch their beauty brand within a matter of months. And I'm here to tell you right now that is not possible. And that's surely a good thing, because you want to create the very best formulation you can, and that takes time. You want maybe not to go through 99 iterations, because that is quite extreme, but you do want to go through quite a few so that you know that what you're bringing to market is the very, very best you've got. And as with my last two steps, you know, this one also takes time. So test Your ingredients, practice, practice, practice, and then also run tests on your final formulation. And all of those three things combined, if you get to grips with those, that makes you a formulator.

Yeah. So I guess. So what we've said really is, from the beginning of this podcast, is that you. You don't have to have a formal chemistry or scientific qualification to make and sell your own skincare, hair care or makeup.

Exactly. Now, I will caveat that by saying there are a few countries around the world that won't let you manufacture skincare, hair care, makeup, cosmetics unless it's being done in a registered lab or by someone with formal qualification. But manufacturing is very different to formulating. And if you get to the stage that you're ready to sell and you're ready to manufacture, then you can outsource that component to a contract manufacturer. There aren't many countries around the world that have that. The only one I can think of off the top of my head at the moment is Spain.

Spain. I was going to say Spain.

Spain has some additional qualifications on top of the EU ones. And then there are a few countries, countries, I think in the Baltic states, Indonesia, and for some bizarre reason, the state of Florida has additional qualifications as well. I don't know what happened to all the other US States, but it's just Florida that's forging its own path there. But that's mainly to do with manufacturing. And they won't require you to have any qualifications specifically.

Yeah. To make the formula. But obviously manufacturing is a whole different kettle of fish, really, isn't it?

Exactly.

So I just wanted to maybe summarize for everyone who's listening, the kind of pros and cons of each avenue really into formulation. So for me, it sounds like, in terms of the pros for the degree level study is that you would have a degree level qualification.

Yes, exactly. Yeah. You'd have formal qualifications in chemistry. The other thing you'd have, which I think is a big pro, is that a cosmetic chemist will understand what happens when they might add ingredient A to ingredient B. And that is something that as a formulator, you have to learn through trial and error. You won't necessarily know it because you understand the chemistry of the ingredient. You would instead make observations to determine whether your formulation worked and to look at what happened. So that is, again, a big plus point, a big pro for a chemist. But I don't think it's a necessity to be a formulator.

Yeah. And I suppose the cons would be that degree level study takes normally a minimum of three Years. If you're doing an undergraduate master's, one or two years, depending on if you do full time or part time, three years. Often you can only do undergraduate degrees full time. They don't offer a lot of them on a part time basis, unfortunately. That's certainly the case in the uk. I don't know what it's like in other countries. I know they're trying to become more flexible. In the uk. I've worked at quite a few universities and most degrees, undergraduate degrees are only offered full time. So often it's difficult to have a full time job, you know, doing it alongside that degree. You obviously have assignments that are due, certain lab time that you'd have to log. It's three years full time, really, that you'd be doing that. And obviously there is a cost attached.

To that, quite a significant one. I mean, going to university will set you back tens, if not hundreds of thousands of whatever currency you're operating in. It's interesting actually, because our colleague Timmy, who's our education manager here at Formula Botanica, attended the European association for Distance Learning conference in Estonia last week. And one of the core messages that came back actually from the US was that quite a few universities are closing down. She said something like 20% of universities are actually shutting down, which is huge because people don't want to go 80 to $100,000 into debt anymore. And a lot more people are going for that micro learning option where they gain qualifications online because they just look at that and think, you know what, I may actually never pay off that debt. I don't want that in my life. And I understand that. So it is a big con. Not a con, but a big negative point. Maybe not the right word there because.

I mean, university is fantastic. I mean, I've done two degrees and I loved it. Lorraine's done two degrees, I think as well, undergraduate and postgraduate. And you know, I love the experience, I love being there. I mean, obviously it is an experience and university is amazing. But, you know, I think there is a school of thought now that is moving towards maybe go if you're wanting to enter into a field where you have to have a degree. So, for instance law, you can't become a lawyer without having a degree. So yes, then you need to go to university a doctor. But if you are engineer, if you're looking at other sorts of careers where you don't necessarily have to have qualification, I think people are starting to look at other routes into that.

Yeah, absolutely. And so I think there isn't really a Right or a wrong choice. When it comes to deciding on the education route you take, it ultimately just comes down to what you hope to achieve with your education. And if you want to become a beauty entrepreneur or become a top notch formulator, what we're saying is you don't have to go to university. On the other hand, if you want to become a chemist and work for one of the big brands in their labs, then university may well absolutely be perfect for you. In which case, go and check out some of the degrees out there, because there are some amazing ones.

There are some amazing degrees in cosmetic chemistry. And I think what we're trying to say throughout this whole podcast is that the reason why we want to talk about this is because we don't want people to be put off pursuing their dreams of becoming a skincare formulator or a haircare formulator and starting a business if they think they have to go to university. I think we receive quite a few emails saying, oh my God, do I have to go to university to do do this? And it's like, you know, I've got two kids, I'm working a full time job, I can't really take three years out. No, you know, don't let that put you off. You could take a course like ours and still pursue your dream.

Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing to mention is that a lot of the students at Formula Botanica want to start their own beauty brand. And I think it's important to note that when you start your own brand, when you are an online entrepreneur, you'll end up wearing a lot of hats in the business and you're not just going to be formulating. So, yes, you could go and become a chemist, but then you're still going to end up being in charge of finances and tech and customer support and HR and branding and marketing and social media and design and manufacturing and everything that comes with that. So it is better to focus on one of those topics at a sort of more micro level with an online course, because you're going to be spending a lot of time learning about all the other components that you're going to have to take care of as well. And then ultimately, as your business grows, once you've started a beauty brand, you'll be able to outsource different roles and you'll find yourself possibly even needing to outsource the manufacturing and design of your formulations as well. And we do see this with some of our graduate brands. For instance, we were talking to Bybee Beauty, Elsie and Dominica, who are our graduates at Formula Botanica and have done extremely well. I mean, they've attracted over seven figures in investment funding. They received startup loans from Richard Branson, each of them. You know, they now have, I think, about eight people working for them. And they're stocked in Sephora around the world, all over Asia, Australia, Europe, Boots in the uk. I mean, they're doing so well, they don't have time to formulate anymore, they don't manufacture anymore. You know, they've outsourced that entire component. So it really depends on what it is that you want to achieve with your beauty brand. And we ran, we're giving away some free videos on our social media pages at the moment, actually, because we're coming up to the big launch for our new brand new Diploma in Beauty Brand Business Management, which opens on June 25, 2019. And one of the polls I ran said, basically, do you want to manufacture your skincare formulations in house or do you want to outsource it to a contract manufacturer? And virtually everyone said, I want to do it myself. So, yeah, that's interesting. And that means you're going to have to have some skills and formulation if you're going to keep that element in hand.

Yes, and I think it's a really interesting topic and maybe one for a separate podcast even. And we cover manufacturing in quite a lot of detail in the ploma that Lorraine mentioned. And you know, contract manufacturers can bring amazing input and skills to formulation that you might not have thought of. So, yeah, so it's an interesting result to that poll because you've got to consider space, all those sorts of things, ingredients, safety, paperwork.

Oh, my goodness, yes, it's huge.

There's of a lot.

Lot.

Yeah, there's a lot. So we've probably covered a few of the pros and cons about being a formulator, but let's just summarize them. What do you think are the main cons? Actually, let's start with the cons of being a formulator over a chemist.

Well, I suppose it's the flip side of what we just talked about. In terms of chemistry, you're not going to know how ingredient A reacts with ingredient B when you add them together because you won't know the chemistry necessarily of them. But over time you'll learn how those ingredients react together because you'll get to know them. The other thing is, particularly when you're formulating with natural and organic ingredients, you know, we're talking butters, oils, hydrosols, that sort of thing, you'll be able to Prepare yourself for how the ingredients will react together because you've sort of, yeah, you've ring fenced the type of ingredients that you're prepared to work with and you know how much most oils will behave and they're very safe to experiment with as well. So you'll have a lot of fun formulating and experimenting with them. So although it's a negative that you don't necessarily know the chemical structure of your ingredient, and even if you did, it wouldn't necessarily mean a lot to you, over time you'll get to know how your ingredients behave. So I suppose that's probably the biggest one. And then I suppose the next one is that some people will challenge you on your qualifications and say to you, have you studied to become a chemist? And that's where you have to stand strong in your shoes and say, no, I have not. But you know what, I obtained a course through Formula Botanica or I am self taught and I'm proud of that. And you see the same with chefs even. You know, I was watching a TV program the other day about a Michelin starred chef and everyone was amazed about the fact that he was self taught. And you sort of think, well, why should he not be? You know, he's experimented and he spent years getting to know his ingredients. And it's very similar in that respect.

It's interesting because Lorraine and I were having a brief chat before we started recording this podcast and I think one of the things that we agreed on was that creating murkiness, if you wish, around your qualifications is probably not the best way forward. So, you know, at the beginning we said, you know, we understood why some people had maybe created the illusion that they had certain qualifications or maybe were attempted to fudge some of the finer details. But really we would encourage you to be open and honest and from the start. And just like Lorraine has, you know, she's never said that she's a cosmetic chemist. She's always said she's a biologist. If you create that clarity from the start, I think you're less likely to come under fire. So you might have to answer a couple of tough questions in that instant, like, are you a cosmetic chemist? Did you study science? Did you blah, blah. And you would be saying, no, this is what I have done. And you know, I've spent hours in my lab, I've spent, you know, years, you know, formulating products and you know, this is my 99th cream. But I think if you create continued cloudiness around what you have and haven't done, it will come back to you at some point and will create more of an issue in the long run that you haven't been open and honest and people can then say, well, you know, what else have that person not been open and honest and honest about?

Yep. And I've seen a lot of people call themselves chemists or cosmetic scientists and really and truly they shouldn't be and they shouldn't be ashamed of where they are. Because I think the most powerful thing you can do is if someone challenges you about the beauty products you make is fish one out of your bag and shove it in their hands and say try my cream and see what you think. And that will speak volumes because people will be able to see that you do actually know what you're doing and you created something beautiful.

And I think another point that you should always make is that it doesn't matter whether I'd have a chemistry degree or not, my products still have to comply with the law and has gone through the same challenge and safety testing as XYZ companies products have. Because, you know, you come back to that point and that people can't refute that point. No, exactly. Your products are going to be as safe and stable.

Yep. And you've got to be proud of the fact that you, you comply with the law and that you know exactly what you have to do to make safe, stable and sellable beauty products.

Exactly. So what do you think are the main pros for being a formulator? For being a formulator, because we haven't covered that specifically and just for the consistent.

I think the biggest one is that formulation is fun and formulation is easy. And whilst I'm sure chemists get to be formulate as well, I don't think they get to formulate quite as much. And as a formulator you're often splashing ingredients around very safely, obviously wearing goggles and gloves and make it sound like they're covering the walls and the ceilings. I think there's a lot of fun in formulation and there's a lot of fun in the unknown and testing out ingredients. And I certainly see that with our community. You know, they get really excited about ordering new ingredients. I'd say that's the biggest problem, pro of all is the fact that you're creating something from scratch and empowering yourself by trialling ingredients, practicing and testing out how to make your formulations safe and stable.

Yeah, I think it's a massive pro. I think the other one is obviously the financial investment.

Yep, yep, absolutely. You're not going to university necessarily. I mean People do come to us and they sort of expect that, you know, they're going to be put in the school benches and they're going to have one on one support. And you do have to be realistic about the fact that when you take an online course, it is going to be a different experience to going to university. But on the other hand, it can be infinitely more empowering because you are in control of your own education and you can study it at your own pace, in your own time, which is, yeah, priceless. Really.

Yeah. I think it's a massive pro that you'd be able to do a course course like ours alongside a full time job. So there's quite a lot of people who might not be in the position to immediately quit and, you know, formulate for six months or a year and, and then launch a line. You know, a lot of people have to work at the same time, whether it be part time or full time. Yeah. So that's a massive pro.

The other thing I'd say is that all of our courses have been set up so that you can complete them comfortably in the time frames that you have. You have by studying one day a week. That's all we expect from you. You're not supposed to be sat there seven days a week. And some people say, can I do it seven days a week? Well, of course you can. You're in control of how quickly or slowly you do things. But that is incredibly empowering. And I studied originally with Formula Botanica as well, before I took over the school. And you know, I was so inspired by what I saw that I wanted to help change people's lives by taking on the school because I realized how easy and fun formulation was. But I only did it one day a week as well. And then slowly over time, I found a little bit of extra time here and there. But, you know, I had babies, so I juggled all of this around my own personal circumstances. And that is, yeah, one of the most empowering things about learning formulation in this particular way.

Absolutely. Now, just before we finish off, I just wanted to cover one final point and that is a little touch on career paths, because this is something we actually get asked quite a lot as well. What could my career be if I studied this or if I studied that? So let's just have a look at your main careers. If you're going to be qualified as a cosmetic chemist, well, you'd be qualified.

To work in a lab, obviously, and you would be able to apply for jobs with some of the world's most prestigious beauty brands. So you could work for the Shiseidos or Estee Lauders or Elizabeth Arden or l'. Oreal's. And yeah, that would all be possible if you had a university degree in cosmetic chemistry. You'd have to work really hard to get your qualifications, but then you could have a really exciting career ahead of you, working for other people in big labs and innovating and, yeah, getting to play with innovative new cosmetic ingredients all the time, saying that you'd be restricted by what the brands wanted and you wouldn't necessarily be able to innovate a huge amount yourself. And from what I've heard, some of the big brands even outsource a lot of the formulation to smaller labs. So you may necessarily not even be doing so much of that. It really depends on where you'd work. But, yeah, you've got a very good job ahead of you and a great career ahead of you, and I don't think you'd ever be out of employment if you studied hard and got qualifications in cosmetic chemistry.

I think another point to make, which is might be a bit pie in the sky, but I'm going to make it anyway, is that I guess there's not a lot of cosmetic chemists that specialize in naturals and organics. And I know that recently there's been quite a few brands in the space who have grown big and might have had funding or have gone through some sort of accelerator that are looking for chemists that have specialized in naturals and organics. And I think there's not that many degrees offering that, but I know that you can probably build it into your profile. So maybe, for instance, you did an undergraduate, now you're doing a postgraduate, and you could experiment in naturals and organics and have that as your qualification and as a part of your profile and your cv, that you're specialized in naturals and organics.

I'd like to add that at Formula Botanica, we've seen, seen quite a few chemists come and study with us, and pharmacists and medical doctors and people who have studied for years and years and years, and biologists and biochemists, and you name it, because they wanted to supplement what they'd learned with natural and organic formulation training, which isn't really available at university, and some of them, particularly estheticians, you know, I've heard from people say, you know, I learned more from your course than I did in my formal training, so it is possible to do both, which is also an option.

Yes. So let's have A look at career paths of formulators, because it's quite wide, isn't it?

Yeah, I'm not sure I'll be able to list them all because there are so many, but I'll do my best. So obviously the main one is that you can learn how to formulate and start your own brand or you can just formulate for yourself. Some people want to do that as well because I am firmly of the belief that anyone can formulate. Just like anyone can cook, anyone can formulate, it's absolutely possible. So yeah, that's the first thing. You can start your own brand, selling your own formulations around the world. You can also get a job with other indie brands formulating for them. And I've noticed in particular that most indie brands that start to recruit formulators don't always want to chemists. They want people who can understand what they're after and how exactly they want their products put together, which a traditional chemist may not fully get. You can also become a blogger. I mean, I've seen this quite a bit as well. People start to blog about beauty, they start to write about formulation. You could teach workshops and we see quite a few of our graduates go on to teach face to face work workshops. You could sell ingredients. We see quite a few of our graduates start their own ingredient shops as well. And yes, you'll have to really obviously set up quite a significant enterprise to do that because you'll have to learn how to handle your ingredients and dispose of them correctly and deal with all the paperwork and manage the manufacturers and attend all the trade shows, etc. But it's possible. Gosh, there are so many. Can you think of any others, Gemma? I've gone blank.

Well, I guess you can become a consultant like you said before. Like, there's quite a few people who are looking for product formulas but don't necessarily. They want to bring them in to work with them. So they might be wanting to start a business but don't really know where to start and don't really want to learn. Sometimes founders just want someone else to do it for them and they're looking for someone to join their team who would be able to formulate a range. I met a few brands like that at Indie Beauty Expo, actually, where the founder and the formulator were there.

Yeah, I hear that a lot actually from our students. They go, I've been approached to make a formulation. What should I charge? You know, it's a question I see come up at least, I'd say several times a month actually. So People, once they learn how to formulate, start to get asked to formulate for others, which is interesting.

Yeah, yeah. And you can build up a real portfolio, real, you know, like an artist would, you know, you could build up a portfolio of formulations and you know, you can, yeah, you can become a consultant, you can work for yourself, you can be independent. Independent, you know, I'm starting to see that come up more and more. And like Lorraine said, blogging is a very popular route.

Yes, absolutely. And you can tie it together with any other qualifications or studies that you've done. So we see herbalists add the skincare formulation branch to their. Or string to their bow, I should say, and they start to make herbal products using the formulation skills that we've taught them or estheticians or spa owners. They bring arrange into their own salon or spa because they have an instant.

Client base that they can sell to aromatherapists. I've even seen yoga teachers recently. So where people are becoming more innovative in how they think about their building businesses and how to future proof it and how to scale. I spoke to a couple of yoga teachers a while ago and they were saying that clients are starting to ask them for advice on what to do with their muscles and their injuries and they came up with an idea of formulating a range of products alongside to offer alongside their classes, which is really interesting. I found that quite interesting. So people who already have existing careers often like to study formulation to supplement a part of their business and diversify and branch out.

Yeah, absolutely. And really the world is your oyster. You've just got to think about how you could tie formulation in with what you currently do and there are probably lots of different ways of doing it. So I. So I'd say that formulation is probably a little bit more diverse and really gives you the opportunity to be an entrepreneur a bit more than a classically trained chemist would be because you will generally end up working for someone else rather than working for yourself. So if your dream is to have that freedom and to turn up for work and be your own boss, then yeah, I think the formulation route might be better for you.

Yeah. So lots of variety and lots of, lots of choices for everyone.

Yes.

So I think that's about all we have time for. Did you want to have add any final thoughts perhaps, Lorraine?

Well, I would say that if you're interested in becoming a formulator, then between the 2nd and 9th of July and we're recording this in 2019, our latest term time will be open and we won't open up enrolment for all of our individual courses again until January next year because we only only open on a twice a year term time basis. So if your dream is to become a formulator, then yeah, come and enroll for one of Formula Botanica's award winning online courses and change your life through organic skincare or hair care.

Yeah. And you can join our fabulous community of formulas to find out exactly what that's like. So many of them have started the business of their dreams. So yeah, please do join our online communities. You can find all the details details at the end of this podcast. Thank you very much for joining us. Lorraine.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you so much for joining our discussion on being a chemist versus being a formulator. I hope you found it informative and interesting. If you want to find out a little bit more about Formula Botanica and who we are, what we do, head over to formulabotanica.com try our free sample class. You can also join in the global green Beauty conversation by joining joining our free Facebook group, the Skincare Entrepreneur Mastermind. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram Ormula Botanicare. Once again, thanks so much for listening.

Sam.