EP51. Is the Beauty Industry Disability Friendly? A Panel Discussion

Welcome to Green Beauty Conversations, the podcast that challenges you to think about how you buy, use, make and sell your natural beauty formulations. We tackle topics that will make you think and encourage debate about green beauty with your friends, followers or customers. I'm your host, Lorraine Dallmeyer. I'm a chartered environmentalist, biologist, and the CEO of award winning online organic cosmetic formulation school, Formula Botanica. We have thousands of students in over 160 countries around the world who study with us to become organic beauty formulators and entrepreneurs. Visit our website@formulabotanica.com to try our free formulation training. Today's podcast is a very important one because we're tackling the topic of disability friendly beauty. In my experience, many of the people I come into contact with have never thought about the way the beauty industry does or doesn't cater for people with disabilities. According to the World Bank, 1 billion people, or 15% of the world's population, experience some form of disability. So let's not forget that all of those people will buy personal care or beauty products. So disability friendly beauty is a topic all of us in the beauty industry should be thinking about and should be talking about. So I'm delighted that today's podcast is going to lift the lid on this important topic. I'm also delighted to welcome a panel of experts to my podcast episode today to discuss disability friendly beauty. In this panel discussion, I'm joined by Emily Davison, Trishna Dazwani and Victoria Watts. So let's start then with introductions. Can I please ask you to introduce yourself and tell us what you do? And I'm going to start with you, Trish.

Hi. I run Kohl Creatives. So Kohl Creatives is a nonprofit makeup brush brand. Uh, we're currently independent and we work with people in empowering themselves using the power of makeup. So a bit of background. I was actually bullied for my appearance when I was growing up and my mom taught me how to use makeup to basically make myself feel better. And the first thing I learned how to do was use eyeliner. And it really kind of changed my life in the sense that it gave me confidence. I often say I probably didn't look very different with a little bit of makeup on, but I certainly felt a lot better. The next couple of years, I really experimented with makeup and wanted to desperately set up something where I could support people in their journey and regardless of what that is. And I noticed two very specific areas where people do have appearance issues that are out of their control. One of them is transitioning gender and the other is going through cancer. And so I basically started running free workshops teaching people how to use makeup as a tool to empower themselves. But of course, that's not sustainable if you're just kind of offering a free service. So I then moved on to creating something that everybody could use. One thing about makeup brushes obviously are. They are inclusive in terms of obviously not being specific to a gender or a race or an age. But of course, ability was one thing that I started to think about quite a bit because there are so many people with different kind of mobility and grips and issues. So I thought, actually, why not create products that both you and I can use that are fully able in terms of people, but also create products that somebody else who isn't able can also benefit from. And so that's the angle that we come at.

Amazing. Wow, What a story. Welcome onto the podcast.

Thank you.

Emily, could you please introduce yourself and tell us about what you do?

Yeah, so I am Emily Davis and I am a London based. Well, I've got a few different areas that I work in, so I'm a blogger and a content creator and I also am a freelance journalist as well. I've built up a bit of a portfolio working with companies like The Guardian and BBC and Channel 4, ITN News and also the Telegraph, to name a few. And I am also a disability advocate as well. And I've got quite a bit of history of working with different charities on different campaigns. And I think most kind of like, notably would be the Scope and the Awkward campaign. I think for me, I started my blog, Fashioneister, back in 2012 because I felt that there was a huge gulf in the blogging sphere for people with disabilities and there wasn't much in the way of voices, disabled people writing blogs at that time, particularly in the area of lifestyle and makeup and beauty and cosmetics and things like that, and also fashion as well. And for me, I've lived with a visual impairment disability all my life. So I've got an illness called septo optic dysplasia, which is a congenital illness which basically affects my eyesight, meaning that I am registered as legally blind. And I also have quite a rare chronic illness as well. So for me, I have always loved makeup and, you know, style and sort of clothes as well. I mean, you would think me now in lockdown mode, there's just not a sweater on. But, yeah, no. So I. I've always loved, you know, being creative with makeup and, you know, skincare especially, and having a mother who had a background in Makeup. She was a makeup artist for quite a number of years before she moved into the teaching sphere. But she's always been a lover of makeup. So I've always had that background and I've always been a real advocate of, you know, looking your best in whatever way that makes you film. Howard. And for me, I wanted to talk about some of the issues that I faced as a visually impaired person who has a guide dog. Because actually, when I first started to use my guide dog and I went out quite a lot more than I was used to, obviously, because I've got this new, wonderful guide dog who gave me a lot of freedom and, you know, going out to places and I would get stopped and people would say, are you training that guide dog? And baffled, because I was like, why would I be training a guide dog? She's not in a guide dog training harness. And they would say, well, you don't look blind, you know, you've got makeup on, your hair is curly, you're wearing high heels. And I was just a bit like, well, I don't really understand how those two things have to, you know, be synonymous with one another. So I wanted to start my blog to really talk about how people with disabilities do also have interests as other people and also to help people with visual impairments. Because I actually get a lot of people asking me advice on things like, you know, makeup and skincare and obviously not really knowing where to start. So I think it was a kind of a double edged thing, really. I wanted to help people, but I also wanted to educate people who didn't really understand anything about it. And it grew from there. And then I started to do freelance work and to do disability advocacy. So it kind of started with my blog and then led into other things, basically.

Wow, what a fantastic story. Well, thank you and welcome to the podcast.

Thank you.

So, Victoria, welcome to the podcast. Can you please introduce yourself and tell us what you do?

My name is Victoria Watts and I am the founder of Victoria Land Beauty. Victoria Land Beauty was created out of. Originally created out of a necessity, a personal necessity. I had a lot of skin conditions at the time, was trying various treatments with my dermatologist, different products, nothing was really working. So I decided to find a solution on my own and started mixing and blending in my kitchen different natural ingredients. And after about six months of using formulas that I personally created with the natural ingredients that I had researched, I really noticed a big difference in my skin. And for once, about 10 years, I was able to go out having to cover up my hyperpigmentation and it really gave me a confidence that I had lacked for so long. And I wanted to empower other women with skin that felt good enough to go naked, makeup free. So I decided to launch Victoria Land Beauty. During that time of taking it from the kitchen to the manufacturer, I gave birth to my fourth child. His name is Cyrus. He was born with a rare genetic eye disease. During that time of, you know, launching and finding out about my son and trying to deal with that, obviously it was a surprise at the time. It was devastating news. And as he started to navigate his world and start crawling around, I really started to pay attention to how he navigates his world through his keen sense of touch and sound. And it was something that I had never experienced before. So then I started to think about, how is he going to navigate his world when he gets older and be independent? How is he going to be able to go grocery shopping? How is he going to be able to go to the pharmacy? How is he going to be able to bathe himself, use his personal care products? And when I started to research what was available in consumer packaged goods for, you know, the disabled consumer, and in my case of the visually impaired consumer, I was not surprised to find very little. So I quickly transitioned. We had already launched the line, and I quickly went into a rebrand, which took about and repackaged the line, which took about a year or so to do, and created my packaging that has tactile symbols on it so that somebody that is visually impaired or somebody even like myself, that without my contacts, I can't see anything. You can identify these products by touch. So I implemented. In December, we launched the new line with the raised symbols. We've launched four symbols, and I have called this symbol system the Cyrus system, which is named after my son Cyrus. And I have also created a nonprofit called the Cyrus Institute in the hopes that these symbols will become universal symbols that other brands will adopt and put on their packaging so that these products are accessible to all consumers cited and unsighted. Because this is a huge need. We have 1.1 billion people that are moderate to severely visually impaired, 300 million people that are visually impaired and blind. That number is growing. And when it comes to consumer packaged goods, they are packaged for the sighted world. There is a huge group of people that could really benefit from this. And my hope is that what I am doing will inspire other brands to jump on board, adopt these symbols, and that the Cyrus Institute work with industries across the board to develop a universal symbol system that can be put on all consumer goods and just give the visually impaired consumer the independence to be able to shop freely, to be able to use products in their bathroom, to be able to go in the shower and know what they're using without having to make their own braille labels, make their own markers, just giving them that freedom. Because to Emily's point, they're consumers just like us. They want to use products just like us. They want to have the same conversations. And just because you're visually impaired or you're blind doesn't mean you don't want to take care of your skin or that you don't want to wear makeup. You still want to wear makeup. You still, you're a person. And that's what I'm trying to raise awareness for so that when my son is old enough where it matters to him, he's only three right now, that he lives in a world that's more inclusive of him and others like him.

Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and welcome onto the podcast.

Thank you.

Right, well, now we've had these wonderful introductions. You can see exactly why we have these three amazing speakers on this podcast today. So let's dive straight in. So some people might think that when we talk about making accessible or inclusive beauty, we're only talking about the packaging of the product. What are the different ways that people with disabilities might struggle with the beauty industries and the products that it sells? Is it just the packaging? Emily, what do you think?

Packaging is one part of this whole, you know, issue? I think there's a lot of different facets to making a beauty brand accessible. So, you know, the packaging, it comes down to the way that it is displayed and merchandised in a shop. It's also how a shop is laid out as well. It's about customer service training and disability awareness training as well. And it's about online accessibility, and it's about how a company markets their products online and how they make their website site accessible to people who, you know, have different disabilities and also, you know, making sure that their social media is accessible as well. And there's actually a lot of tools in place now to equip you to make your social media accounts more inclusive and accessible, like, for example, alt text on pictures or GIFs or, you know, adding closed captions to videos, for example. So I think it's not just about the packaging and the product. I mean, that's one, you know, aspect. But I think if you're looking at trying to be inclusive for all different disabilities, it's about the marketing it's about the packaging, it's about the actual, you know, the selling of the product as well. So I think it comes down to every single aspect of how you, you know, you sell a product from the very beginning to the very end. And I think every part of that has an element that will need to be considered if you are trying to make your brand more inclusive.

What do you think, Trish?

I 100% agree with you. I mean, the digital element of it is probably just as important as the actual whole element of the products themselves. I think the nice thing about beauty in general is that there isn't much emerging or existing within the market as it stands today. One thing that I noticed was one of the first events that I did with our brand was to go to the Multiple Sclerosis society where they have like a big exhibition which is free. It's just basically so that people with Ms. Are aware of what brand products and vendors are there for them. Not only was I the only beauty brand there at that time, this was like two years ago. But the other thing that was quite nice and notable was that people were actually really excited to see not, you know, a life aid, because it's almost like beauty gets taken for granted. And the way that products can make you feel sometimes isn't considered to be an essential. That was probably one of the most encouraging moments, was that it's not just about, you know, getting the fork to your mouth or getting to independently walk around. It's about being able to empower yourself to do the things that you love most as well. Because loving yourself is essential too. Building self esteem is equally as important. But yes, all in all, I think packaging is super important. Products are super important. But the digital element and the way that you market to your consumer, just as Emily said, are equally as vital.

So what do you think, Victoria? You've talked obviously about your classification system and the labels you want to use for your products and packaging. What do you think? Is it just about packaging?

No, it's all the above. It's everything that we've discussed. Packaging, obviously is very important, but also we live in a digital age. We have technology. And thankfully for the visually impaired consumer, thankfully for my son, he lives in an age where we do have this amazing technology and I think that we can utilize that technology more than we do to make packaging more accessible, marketing, retail more accessible, and get the visually impaired consumer or the disabled consumer back into the retail space. I mean, there's so much that we can do. The question is, why aren't we doing it, and I think to your point earlier is that this is a topic that is rarely discussed. However, I do feel that the conversation has started and I think we're at a place now that more people will embrace this and more people will understand the need for this. I worked with a man at the Lighthouse Organization, which is a national organization here in the US And I worked with a blind man there during this entire process because I'm not visually impaired and I can only guess what someone would need. And I wanted to make sure that we did everything that the visually impaired consumer would need in terms of packaging. And one thing we did that I feel could be expanded on even more is we added raised QR codes, so embossed QR codes to all of our cartons so that the visually impaired consumer can scan the QR codes and their screen readers, it would take it to the product page and the screen readers would read them the product information. That was the first step. Well, now I've taken it even further so that when someone scans a QR code, whether it's a sighted consumer or a visually impaired consumer, it goes to an audio file where it's a message and it tells you verbally all of the product information. Because one thing I realized in working with this man at the Lighthouse is that screen readers are amazing. However, the way online websites are set up, it reads every aspect of the website, so you have to scroll through a lot of stuff to get to the information that you want. So I was trying to bypass that with my audio messages instead of using the screen reader. So I think there is so many possibilities. It's just a matter of implementing them and getting people excited and more importantly, getting the packaging manufacturers on board to be able to offer these services an economical price to brands. Because for me, it was extremely expensive and I don't. It's hard for small brands. It was even difficult for me financially to do what I did. But clearly I'm extremely passionate about it because it's my son. I think if we can get the manufacturers on board and make it more accessible to brands, I do think brands would adopt this, because why wouldn't they want to be inclusive of all consumers? I'm hard pressed to believe that they wouldn't.

Absolutely. That is so exciting and so innovative. And I'm sure there are beauty brands listening today who are now thinking, how do I do this? So we will obviously include Victoria's details with this podcast as well. My next question, a little bit already. So I'm going to ask this one to you first, Victoria. From your own experiences or your customers experiences, do you think the beauty industry has improved at all in recent years in terms of its accessibility and inclusivity for people with disabilities?

I think the conversation has started. I see more brands coming out that are different products for ethnicities, genders, races, different skin types. But disabilities is still behind the curve. It really is. There aren't many brands out there that are addressing this issue. And I think that we are in a position now that there has been some conversation about it, there has been some articles about it, there has been discussion about it, but we still have a long way to go. But I believe we keep raising the awareness, keep having these discussions. I think that we will eventually get there, but we have a long road ahead to really embrace this and really start making beauty products and consumer packaged goods products across the board, inclusive of the disabled consumer.

Yeah. So what do you think, Trish? Has the beauty industry improved at all?

I think the problem for me tends to always be the tokenism of the industry. I think with big companies, or I mean, not generalizing, but most big companies are doing this for profit, so they're basically trying to innovate to be able to make money. Whereas I feel like in this situation, particularly not in either Victoria or my case anyway, we're not innovating for that. We're innovating for passion, we're innovating for inclusivity. We're innovating to actually solve the problem. Whereas I don't feel like the other companies really mean it or it doesn't come from that same kind of passionate background. And so the danger here is that companies start to adopt things from a tokenistic perspective. So that what I mean by that is they release one range in particular for people with a specific ability or people with a specific gender or people with a specific skin tone. And they'll have, you know, like, I've seen so many campaigns where they don't retouch models, but they only do that one campaign and then the next thing they go back to kind of doing what they normally do and what they normally stood for. And that is part of the problem, in my opinion. I feel like, you know, we are in a position now where we should really be meaning what we do, we should really be going ahead with it. And if there was one thing that I could say, it would just be kind of, please, you know, when you do do these things, research, invest that time, invest that money, really be conscientious about the decision. You're making and don't make it a one off because what's the point in that? I think once you start to make certain changes, even when it comes to sustainability, we should really stick to that and really keep it going and keep the innovation and development going rather than doing one collection that's kind of dedicated to that, because that is a bigger problem than not doing anything at all.

So, Emily, you've obviously lived through this as a person with a disability and I've read some of your blog posts. I mean, you've touched on some great points on this and we will obviously link to your blog in the show notes too. But what do you think from your experience, has the beauty industry improved at all in recent years?

Well, I first of all want to just say that it's so nice to hear someone like yourself, Victoria, actually implementing a system where you're, you know, using QR codes and scanning QR codes. Because I have actually gone to so many brands and said this would be a great system. And then, you know, there are people who actually use QR codes with disabilities who use screen readers and you know, this would be a really easy, affordable, effective way that wouldn't cost the earth, you know, to be able to make your products more accessible. And you know, so far I haven't really seen it happen. So it's nice to hear that someone's actually doing that and someone's actually got on board that whole idea. And I mean, as someone who's lived, got lived experience in this, I can say that that would be something I'd love to see more brands doing. I guess on the subject of whether I think brands have improved in terms of access and inclusion, I would say since starting my blog in 2012, obviously having done it for almost eight years now, I feel like there is a lot more kind of of a warm reception towards disabled bloggers. Because when I first started it was really hard to try and work with brands or to try and get accepted or taken seriously by brands because, you know, this whole consensus was that, you know, I, as a disabled blogger and also my other disabled blogger friends, we were too niche to be taken seriously and you know, that, you know, they didn't really want a niche. But now you're starting to see that niches in the blogging community are becoming a lot more desirable and a lot more popular. So I, I think that a lot more PR companies are now looking for that and actually looking for niches. Having said that, I don't think that disabled people as a, as a community of content Creators and influencers and freelancers should be just seen as a niche because we are a very huge demographic. You know, the total spending power of disabled people, according to the charity purple, is £249 billion a year. That's a lot of money. So we aren't as niche as people would have initially thought. But for me, it's been a lot more easier to be taken seriously. And I've actually worked with quite a lot of brands in recent years, like Superdrug being by Sanctuary, you know, l', Occitane, to name a few. And, you know, also recently I had a zoom call with a very affluent beauty brand. She working on making their websites more accessible. And, you know, it's a brand that I really admire and love. And the fact that they reached out to me and they want to do this is a really encouraging thing. So I think things are getting better. I think that inclusion is becoming more, you know, of a topic that's becoming discussed as opposed to accessibility. I think that in terms of access, there's still a long way to go. You know, there's so many websites where you can't necessarily, you know, access things if you're using a screen reader. And things are getting better, they are improving. But I still think that it's a very slow trajectory. It's still quite a slow pace, and I would personally like it to see it pick up a little bit of acceleration in terms of how brands approach this. But I think that there is, you know, an awareness there now. There is a conversation that's opened and I think that, you know, there's so many more disabled influencers and bloggers who are now getting opportunities and who are being taken seriously from actually working with brands to, you know, just being put on a PR list for a brand. So I think that it's really encouraging and I think it's just giving out our voices and our platforms more, you know, scope to be able to do things. But I just think that it needs to be something that's consistent, you know, it doesn't need to be something that you do only once and then, you know, kind of leave at the curb. I think it should be something you roll with the whole time, because, like I said, even if you want to do it for, you know, the kind of the consumer aspect, because I'm aware that some brands might want to tackle accessibility because they're thinking of, you know, of money and they're thinking of, you know, the consumer side of it, which is not for me. I like to see brands who are passionate. But, you know, okay, let's say if they just want to do it because they're thinking about the whole, the consumerism side of it, like I said, you know, £249 billion spending power off the disabled person. You know, the purple pound, as it's referred to, it's a lot of money. And I think that brands, if they're not going to think about it in terms of the, you know, the inclusion side and the ethical side of it, then they should also think of it as a brand as well as a brand who's trying to thrive and flourish and make money and also gain a following as well. Because, you know, if you want to make your brand accessible, it's also going to mean you gain loyalty. Because I can tell you as a disabled person that disabled people who find brands that are accessible and inclusive, they will become a loyal customer and they will get, you know, that brand will get a loyal following. So I think it should definitely be something that is more talked about. But I think even from my experience of being a blogger for eight years, I can tell you that it has improved, but it's been a very slow, gradual incline.

Yes. So that £249 billion you referred to, is that just in the UK or is that globally?

So according to the charity Purple, it says that £249 billion that I was referring to is by disabled people in the UK every year. So that is just in the UK alone. That's not even equating the amount of money worldwide, obviously. Purple is a UK based charity that's conducted a lot of research into this for their Purple Tuesday campaign, which is an accessible shopping day here in the uk. But you imagine how much that would amplify worldwide considering the amount of people that are disabled in the world's population.

Yeah, that would be incredible. So what an amazing market opportunity as well for brands out there. So is shopping online then? And you touched on this briefly, Emily. So is shopping online and accessing beauty brands through social media easier for people with disabilities? And I'm going to start with you here, Emily, again, because you just touched on it.

Okay? So, you know, people actually have this assumption that shopping online when you are disabled is easier. And I think for some people it might be easier, but I'd say in terms of those who are visually impaired or who have print disabilities or who maybe are epileptic or have difficulties looking at a screen, that is actually, you know, it's not the case. And again, I'll refer to some statistics from the charity Purple. So in a study that they did, it revealed that for 4.3 million disabled people click away from a website every single year because it's not accessible. So that again, there's a lot of people and that's potentially a lot of money and revenue being lost. So in terms of online accessibility, there's a lot of different things to it. I think some of the main things that always come up when I ask my readers about this in conversation. It's things like not having alt text on images on a website or on social media. It's things like not having toggles on, you know, buttons on your website so when you're using a screen reader, it won't read anything out. It's things like not having closed captions on videos or, you know, having very poor color contrast, having very small text and not having a standard text that's easy for everybody to read. And again, like I said, you know, social media is a big thing as well. So brands not using the tools available, like for example, using alt text on an image or on a GIF or you know, adding captions to a video, either, you know, using a particular in house captioning system or doing it on social media, if there's an app that allows them to do that. I'm aware that not all apps allow you to do that on social media. I think Facebook is the only one that allows you to add captions afterwards, but even to add them in house. So I think it's a lot of different things. When it comes to the online world. There are a lot of issues that people particularly who have got particular sensory disabilities, have struggles with in terms of accessing online websites. But at the moment, of course, we're all, all shopping online now. We are all, you know, in a situation where we have to shop online. And I actually think that a lot more brands are actually becoming a bit more conscious of it now that they are having to use their website as their main form of selling and marketing. So I think actually now it's become a bit more of a conversation that people are having. But certainly I think there is still a bit of work to be done online and I think that it's an opportunity for brands to assess how they do things and how they market their products online.

What do you think, Trish? Is shopping online easier for people with disabilities?

I mean, of course it depends on the disability. So when looking at the motor disabilities market, I know that the majority of the people that purchase the brushes from us that are struggling from a motor disability tend to order them online rather than going in store. But obviously, when it comes to visual impairment and visual disabilities, the experience of shopping in store sometimes can be easier than being able to access, access digital ones, especially in the cases that Emily has mentioned. You know, toggles, alt text on images, closed captions on videos. And I think the benefit of now is obviously with lockdown, a lot of companies are definitely starting to see that impact and definitely starting to change the way that they are accessing the market. So it depends and it varies disability to disability. But do I think that all these small steps kind of are amalgamating together to help to create a better, more inclusive market? Absolutely.

So what do you think, Victoria? You've obviously touched on the QR codes and the audio files that you talked about earlier, but do you think shopping is easier? How do you deal with this?

When we designed our website, one of the main things I wanted to be as accessible as possible with our website. And you know, there are different widgets that you can put accessibility widgets that are great, but they only get you about 60% there. They don't get you 100% there. And that's something we're currently working on getting to closer to the 100% piece. But one of the challenges that I found was that to have a company, for instance, look at the website and to give us all of the different things that we needed to do to be 100% accessible was so expensive. And I think, you know, we want accessibility, we want all of these things, but yet the price to be able to do that for brands can sometimes be extremely high and it's not easy to do. And there's been a lot of pushback here in the States with the ada. And brands, like I said, are trying to. They want to do these things, but in order to do it, it's costing them a lot of money. So my question is, is why aren't we making this easier for companies to have a fully accessible website? Why are we having to pay? You know, in one case it was $15,000 to have someone go through my site to tell me how to make it accessible. That to me is just. It doesn't sit well with me. I think a lot of brands do want to do this, but how do we do it in a cost effective way? How do we make this easy for the brands to do it? Because I'm hard pressed to believe that brands don't want to do it. I believe brands do, but it's just not feasible from an economic standpoint, especially with small brands. And I think that is a huge problem that we're having and I think if we could fix that problem, then you would have more sites that would be accessible for the disabled consumer.

And following on from that, I recently read about someone filing a lawsuit against Fenty Beauty, accusing them of engaging in intentional discrimination due to the current inaccessibility of its E commerce site for customers who are visually impaired. So do you think there will be increased pressure on beauty brands as well to start considering all of their customers in the overall buying experience and making them become more disability friendly? Victoria, what do you think?

I do think that. I know in the States here we have the National Federation of the Blind, they advocate all of the time. They filed a lawsuit against Target to make their website more accessible. Again, we don't have like strict regulation here, but I think that, you know, Target's a huge company here in the United States and I think you will see it trickle down to beauty brands. But again, that has to to be accessible for the brand to be able to implement that is very important because you can't expect a brand to spend tens of thousands of dollars. It doesn't make any sense.

No, I completely agree with you. What do you think, Trish? Do you think there will be increased pressure on brands?

There's always pressure on brands. I think when it comes time to innovation, I think the worst part is it's so expensive. Anytime you want to create something that's that's new and authentic and innovative, it's going to cost the brand a lot of money. Especially when it's an independent brand and that is kind of self funded and you have to kind of make things happen yourself. It's really hard. And so I think, you know, the fact that it costs us so much more to make things more accessible is ludicrous. But I'm hoping now with the awareness and the fact that this is hopefully becoming mainstream, this is the way that it should be. Everybody should have the accessibility, regardless of ability. So maybe fingers crossed. You know, with everything going on, I feel like a lot of the cogs are turning a lot of the way that people think is changing. We're certainly a lot more tolerant and compassionate for everyone around us. I've seen in the UK anyway, right now just a very nice, supportive community which has been really amazing to see considering all the turmoil in the last couple of years. So. So I'm kind of loving the direction and the positivity that we are creating right now. And all we can do is kind of hope that slowly we all see things to change for the better.

What do you think, Emily? Do you think there will be increased pressure on beauty brands? Have you seen increased pressure already?

Well, I think it's actually sad that, you know, people feel that they have to do this to be able to actually have their opinions heard and to be able to make a difference. But I can understand why some people might feel compelled to actually go down the legal avenue if they feel that they are within their rights to do that. I actually, there's a story, a friend of mine who's also a blogger, he wrote to a very prestigious beauty brand to talk about how they might want to look at making their website more accessible and gave them some, you know, some ideas and some, you know, really useful information. And obviously, you know, usually you'd have to pay for an access ordinator, but he was giving his information and his time for free and they just blocked him off into Instagram and didn't want to talk to him. So, you know, this was quite a few years ago and it was a very big brand, you know, very famous one. And, you know, to think that brands, you know, might have that, you know, that inclination is kind of worrying. But no, I think, to answer your question, I think that there definitely is going to be more conscious awareness of accessibility because obviously, you know, we are becoming more aware, especially in the UK of this concept of the purple pound and also, you know, the spending power of disabled people and actually how, you know, they are, you know, a community that needs to have their needs met. And I think it's becoming more of a talked about subject. I think, you know, thanks to the fact that there's been so many amazing campaigners within the last few years raising awareness of this, I think that in terms of, you know, talking about the issue, I think that it's that in terms of raising awareness of this issue, I think it's a case of actually having that open conversation with brands. And I think that, you know, we are seeing more of brands opening up to accessibility and wanting to talk to people. I mean, like I mentioned recently, I had a zoom meeting with people from, you know, a very big brand and they wanted to make their website more accessible and they were asking me questions about different areas of making their website more inclusive for people with visual disabilities. And I've worked with some other beauty brands in the last few years on, you know, their website and also their product design as well. So I think that it's something that brands are becoming more aware of and I think that it's something that they are opening up to. And I just hope that continues. And I also hope that they actually consult people and use people who have lived experience to be able to make their services better. Because I think one of the best ways that you can actually work on a website, no matter what the size of your brand is, is just simply just to reach out and ask people, you know, what do you find good or bad about our website or our products? What could we be doing better? And I think that's one of the key ways to actually, you know, improve your brand and actually to work on making your brand more accessible and also in terms of the online side of it and actually making a website accessible. That's why I think that more brands should actually hire people with disabilities who have a background in website design because, you know, they'd have lived experience of, you know, actual accessing websites and they understand how to use coding to make their websites accessible and actually to be able to, you know, make a website more inclusive. And I think, you know, there's huge employment gap for people with disabilities and this is one area where you could create quite a lot of jobs for people to be able to actually give their expertise and actually to be able to mutually benefit the brand as well.

Fantastic. So very high opportunities as well. So then let's tackle the big question we all want answered answered. Is the beauty industry currently doing enough for people with disabilities? And I'm going to start with you, Trish.

So of course my answer to this is no. I mean, I found it really insane at the time of creating my brand, at the time of creating my product that this was an area that was barely thought about. And the fact that I was one of the first people initiating that seemed crazy to me because I, as I mentioned, I don't actually have any disabilities, but because I've been in an experience of being excluded because of the way that I used to look physically, just in terms of being bullied, I would never want someone else to be in a position of feeling isolated. So inclusion is something, as I mentioned, that I'm, you know, kind of all about. And I guess the one step that I hope brands start to take now is to start thinking of inclusivity more holistically and start to really make sure that they cater to as many people as they can, if not everyone, to be able to look and feel amazing. Especially in terms of the case of beauty, you know, as I mentioned earlier, it's not considered to be an essential, but in my opinion, it definitely is. And I Wish that, you know, we started to see our market as a whole essential. You can't just market to one group of people as the people without disabilities just because that's what everyone's done the entire time. And I definitely think hopefully that awareness will start to change, if not even from the financial perspective, but just from the passion perspective. And so, yes, in my opinion, we are moving forward, we're moving in a great direction and I hope that this very strange time that we've been kind of forced into now will allow people to reflect on growing more positively and definitely growing more inclusively.

So what do you think, Emily? Is the beauty industry currently doing enough for people with disabilities?

The short answer would be not enough as it stands, but what I will add to that is that, you know, they have got better. You know, going from a blogger who wouldn't really get any conversations with any brands to, you know, having worked with some, you know, quite, you know, well known brands, I think it's, you know, really encouraging and it's definitely a step up and I think that they're, you know, it's starting to pick up and it's starting to gain a little bit of momentum. But I don't want it to become something that's tokenistic and that's only done for a short period of time and then it gets left. I would like to think and hope that this continues and that more brands become aware of this and actually want to make their, you know, their brand more inclusive just because that's the image of their brand that they want to uphold. And I think because diversity is becoming such a talked about subject in recent years, I hope that that is going to continue in terms of disability. But I think that there definitely needs to be more done just in terms of things like continuing to include disabled people in ad campaigns and brands and continuing to work with disabled influencers, but also continuing to actually make, you know, their products, their services, their websites accessible and to actually invest time into training and raising awareness of disabled customers and how best to, to work with them. So it's getting better and it's got better, but they could be doing better.

I thought you might say that. So, Victoria, you're next. Is the beauty industry currently doing enough for people with disabilities? What do you think?

No, I don't think they're doing enough at all. I think, again, I think the conversation has started, but we have a long way to go. It amazes me the amount of conversations I've had with people since I developed this concept and launched the brand. In December who are so unaware. And I'm going to speak specifically about visual impairment, who are so unaware of and the amount of people that are visually impaired and blind globally. And they're so unaware of so many aspects of that they use beauty products, that they wear makeup, that they care what they look like. People are so uneducated when it comes to disabilities. And that's the biggest problem. People don't realize. And when I tell them and we have these conversations, it's like, oh, my gosh, I never knew. I never realized. Wow, that's so. It's all about education. It's about people having a voice like all of us and raising the awareness, getting people talking about it, letting people know that it's a problem. Because nine out of 10 people don't even think about this and they don't realize it's a problem because they're uneducated about it. And I think that's our biggest issue. And I think once we start doing that, then I think more beauty brands will jump on board and start doing more things because their customers are going to demand it.

Yes.

And hopefully this podcast will go some way to educating some of our listeners as well on this very important topic. Final question, and I'm going to start with you, Victoria. What would you recommend to people who want to buy disability friendly beauty or beauty brands who want to become more accessible and inclusive?

They need to let their voice be heard. They need to promote it on social. We need to contact brands, we need to raise our voice and let brands know that this is what we want as a customer, as a consumer base. We want products that are accessible to all, that are inclusive of all. And I think it's going to come from the customers, the ones demanding it, because they're the ones that support these brands buying their products. I think that if more brands hear from their customers demanding more inclusivity, I think that's a positive step, the right direction.

Trish, what do you think? What would you recommend to people who want to buy disability friendly beauty or beauty brands that want to become more accessible and inclusive?

From a brand perspective, I would definitely say start to ask the people with the disabilities for the support. Start to ask them how they think that, you know, you could improve a product. Because it's much better to hire people that actually are going through this every day to help you develop a product rather than hiring some experts, expert, to be quite frank, because these are the people that you're marketing to and, you know, including them and giving them the opportunity to Discover that and support you works both ways. So I would say hire people with those abilities. I think the other thing we have to realize is brands have this very weird, strange perception of what a disabled person looks like. Well, actually, a disabled person looks like me and you. You know, we all have very similar interests. We all love the products that we love for the reasons that we love them. A person with a disability doesn't necessarily have a specific reason to love the same face mask that you do. So I think those are other key things to consider. And from a consumer perspective, let your voice be heard. If you purchase something and you love it, feedback to the brand. If there's something that a brand can improve on, let them know. Because if they're truly invested in you and they're truly invested in what you think and your ideas, then, you know, make them part of the conversation.

So let's end on the final question then, Emily, what are your recommendations?

Well, I'd say in terms of brands, I would say that you definitely should do your research and, you know, ask for assistance from the people that you are trying to make products for. As Trish said, you know, there are plenty of disabled people who would be only too happy to assist and to give feedback and to do a little bit of surveying. And, you know, it's really easy to just put it out there, put the feelers out there and ask for people to take part and to be on board and to be open to suggestions, because that's one of the key ways how you're going to improve is to actually gain experience and knowledge and understanding from the people who have lived experience of this issue, as opposed to maybe someone who has, you know, experience as a, you know, on the corporate side of it, but maybe not lived experience. And also I think it also creates jobs for them as well. And I'm very passionate about creating jobs in industries for people who have that lived experience. So that's one of my big passions. But I'd say also be open to suggestions and insight, be open to constructive criticism and be prepared to take it and to actually take it away and use it, because it's only going to help your brand expand and grow and become more successful and also be prepared for trial and error because you're not necessarily going to get things right the first time. And, you know, there might be a case of actually going away and developing products and developing things, because that's just the nature of the beauty brand and because that is just the nature of the beauty industry and the world that we live in, you know, that's how it works. I would say in terms of consumers and people who have disabilities who want to buy from brands, I would say don't be afraid to have your opinions heard. Don't be afraid to make your opinions known. You know, social media is a great free tool and it's a great way to be able to talk to brands about it. I would say be articulate with what you have to say. If something doesn't work for you, be prepared to write them an email explaining things or to send them a video of using a website and showing them the faults. And I think that it's important to be constructive and to be kind, not just to simply tear a brand down, but to simply say, this is not working for me. This is what you could do to change it. And I also think that, you know, use the tools you have available to your advantage. Like I said, use social media and also network with other people. Because, you know, in my experience, having done things like this in the past and done surveys, one of the best ways that you can actually have your voice heard is to actually make contact with other people who have disabilities and, you know, to form a body of evidence and to give it to these brands and say, this is not working. And it's not just my opinion. This is coming from a group of people who have the same experiences, you know, even if you really are passionate about it, make a Facebook group, invite people to join it who want to do some, you know, access surveying, ask them to look at websites, maybe have a particular website that you're going to do every single week, do a little bit of research and then send it off to the brands and, you know, give them some ideas. And if you're prepared to do that and give your time up, you know, some good might come of it. I just think just use your initiative. That's one of the best ways that you can, you know, make things progress and help, you know, things to actually continue to progress and move forward.

Fantastic advice from all three of you and thank you so much. Emily, Trish, Victoria, it's been an absolute pleasure to host this panel with you. I think this is probably my favorite podcast of all time, actually. It's been amazing hearing all your thoughts and advice. So obviously we will include all of your links and places that people can find you with the show notes for this podcast. And thank you so much for taking part.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I hope you enjoyed that panel discussion as much as I did. I feel so honoured that we were joined by such knowledgeable panelists. And regardless of whether you buy, make or sell beauty products, I hope that this discussion on Disability Friendly beauty has given you lots of food for thought too. Whilst progress is obviously being made, clearly the beauty industry has a way to go in terms of becoming more accessible and inclusive for people with disabilities. It's brands like Kohl Creatives and Victoria Land Beauty who you heard about today from Trish and Victoria, who are making a difference and trying to inspire others to do the same. I'm convinced that the indie beauty sector can play a huge role in improving the accessibility, inclusivity and visibility for people with disabilities by working together, and I hope you feel the same way after listening to this podcast. In fact, I want you to join the discussion and leave us a comment on our social channels to tell us how you think the beauty industry should improve. The Formula Botanica team and I love hearing from you, so come and tell us your views. Thank you for joining Emily, Trish, Victoria and I for this latest episode of Green Beauty Conversation on Disability Friendly Beauty. I hope you enjoyed it. Make sure you subscribe to our podcast on itunes, Spotify or Stitcher and stay tuned for the next episode. Follow Formula Botanica Formula Botanica on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube or LinkedIn. We're everywhere. Visit our website@formulabotanica.com and sign up for a free formulation training class today.

Sam.