EP81. Can the beauty industry ever be transparent?

The beauty industry has been making insane claims for centuries. From the hair oil in the 1800s that was meant to prevent baldness to the makeup of the 1950s that would guarantee to snag you a husband to the mainstream white lab coated pseudo scientists of today who claim that their serums will erase your wrinkles. The beauty industry certainly knows how to circumvent advertising rules to their benefit. So it should come as no surprise that with the dawning realization that there's half a trillion dollar global industry finally needs to take part in the sustainability conversation, plenty of brands are out there greenwashing to their heart's content. But how do we as beauty consumers verify that it's true when our favorite beauty brands tell us that their packaging is made out of recycled materials, or that they've offset their last year's carbon emissions, or that they pay all of their workers a living wage? Sustainability is a huge, complex topic and none of us can hold every single beauty brand to account on every single impact. But one ambitious entrepreneur has set out to change all that and she is on a mission to encourage the beauty industry as well as many other industries to open up their books and turn positive social and environmental impact into brand value. If you've ever wondered how we can stamp out greenwashing in the beauty industry, then you don't want to miss this episode. Welcome to Green Beauty Conversations, the podcast that challenges you to think about how you buy, use, make and sell your natural beauty formulations. We tackle topics that will make you think and encourage debate about green beauty with your friends, followers or customers. I'm your host Lorraine Dallmeyer. I'm a childhood environmentalist, biologist and the CEO of award winning online organic cosmetic formulation school Formula Botanica. We have thousands and thousands of students in over 175 countries around the world who study with us to become organic beauty formulators and entrepreneurs. Visit our website@formulabotanica.com to try our free online formulation course. So in today's episode I am joined by Jesse Baker MBE, the founder and CEO of Provenance.org, the software solution for sustainability communications. With proof, Provenance works with brands to be transparent about their impact, empowering shoppers to drive progress through purchase power as a social enterprise and B Corp. Backed by impact investors, Provenance exists to make commerce a force for good. The first to apply blockchain technology to supply chains in 2013, Providence are now working with businesses in the UK and across global supply chains. Hi Jesse, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?

Hey, really great to Be here, doing well. Thank you, Sunny London today. So feeling good.

I am so thrilled that you're here and I can't wait for this conversation. I came across what you were doing months ago and I was fascinated by it, so I know our listeners will be too. So let's start at the top. There's a growing rallying call by customers and governments demanding more transparency from brands, manufacturers and producers throughout the supply chain. Why has this demand for transparency arisen, do you think?

Yeah, no, great, great question. And I think there's been a particularly kind of sharp rise kind of through the pandemic. Which of you know all of all the things to come from a global pandemic. It seems we, we all got very interested in sustainability and I think potentially shopping more online, maybe making more thoughtful purchases. I think particularly over the last 18 months, there's just been a real rallying call for consumers to know more about the impact of products. But I think that's been kind of in the pipeline for a while. I mean there's definitely a kind of growing movement of shoppers that quite frankly know that the purchases they're making are kind of a vote for the world they want to see. And so increasingly are getting a bit more vocal about asking these companies kind of where their money's going.

Brilliant. Yes. And we're certainly seeing that in the beauty industry as well. And it's about time, if I'm going to be briefly honest. It's taken their sweet time to talk about sustainability, but it's finally starting to roll. Let's talk a little bit about what you do then. So can you tell us what provenance does and why beauty is one of the core areas you're working with?

Yeah, definitely. So I started Provenance, personal frustration for how little we know about the things we buy. I'm kind of originally studied manufacturing engineering at uni, so I love knowing how stuff's made and I guess I like just very interested in the impact that products have on people and planet. So yeah, started Provenance really to solve that problem because I thought I'm not alone. I think lots of shoppers want to make more kind of thoughtful purchases and care about the planet and protecting people. So we decided to solve that problem. So yeah, I should mention now that I'm also a software geek, so. So we decided to solve that problem through technology. The way we're doing that is a software service that's designed for brands in order to help them be more transparent on the impact of their products in their own channels. So Inside their own kind of e commerce channels or from kind of off pack QR codes, but really making that information about the impact of their products accessible to consumers. But in a way that's really credible. So I think we're seeing increasingly brands want to make claims related to sustainability, huge market opportunity. I think the, you know, sustainable brands grew seven times faster than non sustainable brands. So like there's a huge opportunity there. But at Providence, what we're trying to do is make sure that brands communicate this in a way that's really credible. Not only to meet up and coming regulation that's, that's kind of starting to make sure that brands aren't greenwashing, but also just to make, yeah, just make sure they're protecting their brand and talking about this stuff in the most credible way. So yeah, so we started out with food and drinks and then, yeah, through a partnership with online retailer Cult Beauty, we ventured into the beauty industry. I mean, we started conversations with Cult like almost two years ago now. But it's been crazy. The adoption's gone so fast. It felt like beauty has sort of transformed much more than I thought was possible over the past two years. Now working with almost 100 different beauty brands, helping them be transparent.

Wow, congratulations. That's very exciting. And I just want to say I've watched quite a few companies come up over the years to try and do a component of what you've done that I've seen a lot of companies try to embed sort of transparency tools to look at whether an ingredient was synthetic or natural. But I think that conversation has already fallen by the wayside. So I think the fact that you're encompassing all these different sustainability tools is absolutely phenomenal. But we're going to come to that. Provenance enables every physical product to come with a digital passport that proves its authenticity. So is this product what it claims to be and as well as its origin? So where does this product come from? You say you're creating an auditable record of the journey behind all physical products, which is incredible. So how do you do this?

It's taken a while to figure out the right solution. And yeah, a key component of provenance is that we didn't want to just help businesses to be transparent. We wanted to make sure we were helping businesses be transparent in trustworthy way. So really like a future proof method that goes beyond just what a brand says, but actually enables them to prove what they're saying is real. So yeah, how we do that is we firstly help brands to collect the data together that they want to be transparent about. So that's usually pulling data out of internal systems, sometimes Excel spreadsheets of supplier lists or certifications, or perhaps audit records for different aspects of their products. Obviously, brands don't have to make everything public and transparency is a journey. So we start with them to really look at the kind of key claims they want to make about their products and help them bring together the data they need. We do all that through the software and then we help to help them to prove the key claims. So that involves kind of collaborating with different actors that sit in their supply chain. So that could be an auditor or a supplier of a packaging or something like that. And we bring together kind of confirmation from them that this is an accurate claim along with traceability information. We kind of bring those things together into a proof that can then be sat as like a digital badge inside an E commerce environment. You'll be familiar with seeing beauty brands kind of making their own kind of symbols and talking about the impact of products in a product page. Right. And some of them are very wishy washy and very hard to understand. Like what really is, like, artisanally made, you know, or some of them might be less wishy washy but confusing. Like is net zero, you know, like net zero carbon? Is that related to the business or the product or is that the entire supply chain? So this is already happening, but Provenance is essentially doing that and facilitating that to happen with a kind of consistency and credibility so that, you know, quite frankly, so we can get shoppers to actually drive change. And confusion doesn't help that.

Absolutely. So from my understanding, does this system then rely on blockchain technology? Because I know that Providence was originally talking about that.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So I actually started Provenance as a side project. I was doing a PhD in computer science looking at blockchain technology and its potential for supply chain transparency, which at the time, when I started that in 2013, was a pretty radical idea. I think blockchain and cryptocurrency has become a little bit more part of the common vernacular since then. But yeah, so Provenance was one of the first companies to even explore using that technology in order to help with consumer trust on the claims related to products. Our use of that technology has changed over the years. We actually started out tracking each individual product on a blockchain, like a traceability system. We actually pivoted our application to focus the use of blockchain to just be on the proof. So bringing together existing data from internal and external sources and creating a Proof at the point of sale. So like a badge that, that sits there at the point of sale that can be trusted because you can see exactly who's verified it and you can see that it's tamper proof and you can see the full audit history. So when was that verified by who? Which is quite a novel idea, like a kind of digitally native proof. And I still think people are sort of getting their head around it because I guess people are sort of only realizing that actually there is a bit of a trust problem with claims being made about products and there's certainly confusion. And this technology as a solution to helping solve that is quite novel. And that means that those claims are, you don't need to trust provenance, if that makes sense. Like we're just bringing together the information in a fully open source way so you can see how we do that. And then you know, those claims are secured and auditable through a fully kind of open system versus, yeah, like us brokering that information.

Incredible. Well, what an amazing concept you've come up with. Let's dive into that whole topic a little bit more because I've been doing my homework. I spent ages on your website and on cult Beauty and looking at exactly how it works. And it was very impressive when I realized that you work with this system called proof points, where a sustainability claim is externally verified by a scheme such as Cosmos Organic Certification or the Rainforest alliance or the Vegan Society or the RSPO Sustainable Palm Oil Scheme. So how should beauty brands use this.

Proof point system essentially that we've created like a framework for all the proof points. So that's like an open rulebook of how brands should communicate about impact. But we've made that fully open source and free. So that's an easy thing for beauty brands to go to. So it's@provenance.org framework you can go, that's fully open. And so that's a big list of all the proof points. And those proof points can be activated at both a brand level or a product level. And what they show you is really kind of how to create the simplest and clearest way of communicating impact across a range of different themes, from kind of worker rights and communities all the way through to like environment, carbon, nature, biodiversity, all of those types of things. That's kind of the beginning of proofpoints is trying to work out which you can get. And inside, if you click around in that system, you can see the standards that you need to meet in order to make that claim. Some of them are certifications. So the standards are very comprehensive. And then some of them we've kind of assembled from leading international standards on things that perhaps don't have certifications yet, like recyclable packaging or those kinds of things. So yeah, that's the place to start. And that's kind of like the how to get started with proof points and then using the provenance software, service brands can then take those proof points and actually turn them, you know, take that list and then turn it into real proof points kind of in their website where they can essentially like make claims, but with evidence and third party verification kind of associated with them. So we're constantly improving that list and we really just want there to be a simple comprehensive. This is how to talk about impact for your product, just so that we can stop confusing consumers from the get go. So really also open for feedback and if we've missed things, we're very keen to keep improving that.

It's an incredibly comprehensive list and I spent quite a bit of time going through it all and looking at how the various components and proof points were put together and I was very impressed by it. The one question I have is, I mean, as a beauty brand, particularly indie brands, who we predominantly work with, doesn't the system then rely on them having multiple certifications in place in order for it to really work to their advantage? And do you think smaller brands are realistically able to embrace so many, not only certification schemes, but also independent verifiers at once?

Yeah, we really believe in making credible claims. I think that's very important. But a lot of the claims in there don't require you to have certification. There are some that do and I mean, that's maybe a whole avenue to get that go down. It's just kind of like the merits of certifications versus not and, you know, what does the future of that look like? But for some things we've, we've really kind of drawn a hard line and said, actually we do think a certification makes sense here. You need a chain of custody audit. Like we need to know that the ingredient you bought is the ingredient in the product if we're really going to let you credibly make that claim. And we also need an audit like, you know, like, we can't just rely on you saying that's the case. So for some claims we have tried to push certifications and you know, and are working with them to hopefully see if they can be made more efficient and cheaper and more accessible. But there are also a whole myriad of claims that don't require certification. You Know, things like female founded business, independent business, lots of the claims on recycled packaging that can be, you know, verified through packaging suppliers and kind of other means like that. And so, yeah, there's definitely a whole bunch that are quite accessible. I think the other thing is with Proofpoints we have kind of two tiers. So what we're aiming for is every claim to be verified and have, have that kind of verification associated with it. But we also just have an evidence tier where as a brand you can make those claims and then just attach evidence to it to substantiate what you're saying. But it's, it's a progress point to, to get to a verified claim.

Yes, I saw that. Very impressive. And that obviously helps with brands who are on their, working along that route to try and get to that stage. So how long does it take provenance to verify that a beauty brand is adhering to the standards that it says it does?

Yeah, so some claims, it's incredibly quick, you know, like for example, the certifications, you know, we've made relationships now with lots of the leading certifications and it's incredibly simple. It's just a matter of us bringing that verification into the shopper. And then some of them are a little bit more complicated because they require perhaps maybe two or three verifiers to come together in order to create that verification. So something like a net zero product, you might have the system that measured the carbon and then you might have the offset that's helping to mitigate some of the unavoidable carbon that couldn't be reduced from the supply chain. And then you might have some proof of reduction. And those can all come together in a, in a claim related to the, to the carbon footprint of the product. So that's slightly more involved, but we're really relying on existing data. The key thing that provenance is trying to do is to take the data that brands already have and I guess take sustainability from being like a cost to the brand to being something that can actually generate revenue from the brand by bringing that information into the point of sale in a way that really can be trusted by the shopper. And as a differentiator, brands are increasingly doing that, of course, but at the moment it's that credibility, I think that's really helping to get the brand to really capitalize on that opportunity. So it can be quite quick to get started. And then we have a few other features as well. So proofpoints is kind of one of the core ones and that's what we're really using with retailers as well. So I guess a big plus of a brand joining provenance to do this is not only being able to surface this in their own site, but it's also then data that can be pulled by retailers into retailers search and filter and product pages. So kind of like networked data set that we're hoping to also help brands avoid the endless PDFs of information they get asked to be filled out by retailers by do it once, fire it out. So there's, there's lots of benefits to getting started and it can be, it can be quite quick to, to do the basics.

Amazing and very exciting for all the, all the nascent beauty brands out there who are just getting started, obviously. So looking at the framework you use, you incorporate many different elements, including climate, waste, nature, workers, communities, which is great and very extensive. Are there any other categories you hope to add to the provenance framework in the future?

Yeah, so we're trying to keep it as simple as possible on the top level. Like I think we've got to. Although the framework's very comprehensive and there's a lot of planes in there. Like we are also trying to be on the side of the shopper and there's only so many claims the shopper can get their head around. And so having those, having those kind of simple like just a few categories, like, okay, this is a proof point related to climate. Like I know this business is doing something good for climate. Like I think having just a few categories is helpful for people to kind of ground like how this matches their values without having to like fully understand the proof point at hand. So I think we're trying to keep that quite, just to that set and then just building in new proof points or upgrading proof points as we go. Like the idea is this isn't a static framework, but as more and more brands are switching their practices to more sustainable, socially impactful kind of methods, then yeah, we hope the framework kind of constantly keep upgrading because, you know, for at the moment we allow you to make a proof point that's like 50% recycled packaging, but it might be that in the future that's the norm, in which case you're only allowed a proof point at 75 or whatever that might be. So we're constantly trying to raise the bar within the themes, if that makes sense.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, one topic that I've talked about quite a lot on the podcast in recent months is all about minimalist beauty consumption levels levels, that sort of thing. Because arguably the biggest impact that the beauty industry, particularly the mainstream beauty industry has in terms of sustainability is that the sheer level of consumption it encourages by profiteering from people's insecurities. So a brand can take a lot of great steps with respect to the recyclability of its packaging, although that doesn't necessarily mean it will be recycled, of course, or the vegan claims for its ingredients. But they might still be churning out 20 new products a year. So do you think you'd. Would provenance ever consider like a multifunctional multipurpose or something to do with consumption.

In terms of a category?

Category and its framework in the future?

Definitely. Now, I absolutely love that idea, for sure. And I think we have. We have a few claims in the kind of community section that do relate to, like, the efficacy of the product because, you know, ultimately the product is not very useful. It's certainly not very sustainable. Right. So we have embraced a few of those types of things to make sure to try and kind of reduce kind of needless consumption. But absolutely, I'm incredibly interested in that. And I think, yeah, it feels like a lot of pioneering beauty brands are. Are looking at that. Definitely think. I think we will over time. The tricky bit is kind of setting standards on those types of things because it can be quite subjective as to what is more essential than another thing. You know, like, how much can you kind of, I guess, impose on a shopper that maybe they don't need this? You know, like, we're all kind of should be able to make our own choices. But, yeah, no, I think that's a really interesting thing to explore for sure.

I just thought I'd throw that one out there. It's my favorite topic of the moment.

No, I love it as well. I mean, hey, I'm like the laziest person, so, like, whenever I've got a product that I can do, like, multiple things with, I just selfishly love it. Right.

So.

And it's also good for the planet. So everyone wins.

Absolutely. Okay, well, I'm going to finish off with a big question, and I'll be interested to. I'm throwing this one at you, so I do apologize in advance. What do you think is the beauty industry's biggest challenge when it comes to the transparency of its formulations, of its ingredients, of its overall impact?

I mean, this is a great question. I think there's a couple of big hurdles in the way from the beauty industry really becoming something sustainable and dare I say the word sustainable, because it's a hell of a long way away from beauty. I think we've touched on the first, probably most important one already, which is consumption. It's just a sheer clash of business model needing you to buy more stuff and extreme levels of consumption. So I think we've covered that one. Another massive hurdle is greenwash. We're seeing much faster growth from beauty brands that are making claims related to social impact and sustainability. But the reality is that's been going largely unchecked. So brands making claims related to their products that aren't certified, haven't been audited and yeah, you know, quite frankly, some of them are just not credible or very misleading. I think that's about to change. I think the greenwash heyday is coming to an end. There's fantastic regulation coming in in this country from the Competitions and Markets Authority that's going live next month, which is going to start cracking down on businesses that are making green claims that are unsubstantiated, unevidenced. So it's music to our ears because we've been doing that for brands for years. But I think it's a shock to brands that think they can just write their own marketing story related to sustainability and get away with it because it's not going to happen in this country for much longer. So I think it is ending the greenwash heyday, but I don't think it's been helping the industry. And then I think there's the challenges of the realities of supply chains. Like people are buying from lots of different suppliers and you have to form deep relationships with your suppliers if you're going to work together to make your products more impactful. And yeah, sometimes that's at odds with, with business models that are maybe more based on brand and marketing and less based on kind of care or sourcing of ingredients. But I think there'll be a shift. I think those that have taken care of their supply chains or maybe even gone so far as to invest in farms or form long term contracts with their suppliers, I think will flourish in the long term. But there's a long way to go before many businesses are at that point, I think.

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's been really interesting learning more about what you do and what provenance is doing and the potential that this system has for beauty brands out there, big and small. So where can our listeners find out more about provenance and about you?

Yeah, so I think first thing is, if you're a beauty brand interested in starting to make claims about your brand and product related to environment and society, then I think the framework is the best place to start. So provenance.org framework have an explore of the different claims. What can you start to say? What can't you? It's free, open, should be pretty easy for you to get started. And then, yeah, I mean, from there we'd love to talk to brands that are wanting to start making claims and differentiating on sustainability. So yeah, hit us up on our website and we're absolutely kind of around for chats with brands that want to kind of join us on this mission because we're really just getting started.

Fantastic. Well, we'll put all of the links with our show notes as well, so make sure you go and check out provenance regardless of whether you're a beauty brand or a shopper. We'd love to hear what you think as well. So thank you very much for joining me today, Jessie. It's been really lovely chatting to you.

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

So I hope you found this podcast episode eye opening and I hope it's given you an insight into the transparency required for an industry that is woefully behind on the sustainability conversation. I'd love to hear what you think. Please do come and leave us a comment on our social channels as both the Formula Botanica team and I love hearing from you and make sure you take part in the sustainable beauty polls and chats I run over on my Instagram channel. Lorraine Dalnaya, thank you for joining Jesse and I for this latest episode of Green Beauty Conversations. I really hope you enjoyed it. If you did, please do leave us a five star review so that other people can enjoy these conversations too. To make sure you subscribe to our podcast on itunes or Spotify or any of your favorite podcast apps and stay tuned for the next episode, follow Formula Botanica Formula Botanica on Facebook, Instagram, Clubhouse, Twitter, YouTube, Pinterest or LinkedIn. We are everywhere. Visit our website at formulabotanica.com and sign up for our free online formulation course today.

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