148: From 0 to 51 Units Despite Living in a Crazy Expensive Location with Nazz Wang

This is the BiggerPockets podcast show 148.

That's kind of my goal. I've always liked to be lazy, so I wanted to find out how I can be lazy. That's why I don't do a 9 to 5 job.

You're listening to Biggerpockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype, you're in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com your home for real estate investing online. What's going on, everybody?

This is Josh Dworkin, host of the Bigger Pockets podcast, here with my co host, Brandon Turner.

Hey, Josh. So let's talk about the World Series. Really? Because last week you were really, really cocky about. About how good they were gonna be, and they.

Who is? The Mets.

The Mets. You even called me Mr. Met and.

Yeah, the bobblehead. Yep.

But at the end of the day, as everyone knows who listened to last week's, you made a gigantic fool of yourself.

I did not make a fool. The Mets, on the other hand, they.

Made a fool for themselves.

Yeah, they lost, man. I mean, listen, at the end of the day, two pretty good teams going up against each other, great baseball games to watch. Except if you're a Met fan.

You know, you can't make 10 errors in the World Series and expect to win. It just. It's not going to happen. So we lost. We lost, and that's it. So, you know. Yeah, thanks. You know, salt in your eye. I appreciate it.

No problem. Let me give you a nice paper cut and pour some lemon juice on it while you're at it.

Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it.

Hey.

So how you doing?

I'm actually doing really, really well. In the words of Dave Ramsey, better than I deserve.

Ooh, very nice.

That's his thing.

That's great. How's your hand? Recovering.

Oh, yeah. So I'll show you it. I don't know.

You can.

There's the one wound and there's the other wound. I took the band aid off today.

Yeah.

I was taking out some laminate countertop out of my kitchen counters, and I'm putting new counters in. So I was taking the laminate off because the company, I hired Lowe's to come in and do it, which is great. But then they're like, well, you have to demo counter before we can come and measure. And anyway, end of the Day they I had to pull it out myself and I cut my hand all up pretty deep. So that's fun.

Nice. Awesome. Awesome. You know, why don't you ask me how I'm doing?

So today's guest is. Naz.

Oh, Josh.

How are you doing? What's new? I heard you got a new office.

And yeah, I mean, come on, this is, this is, this is big news. Yeah, we did. We got a new office. It's very exciting. We actually will, by the time this airs, we will have just moved in at the time of this recording.

I heard you got lost at Ikea yesterday for nine hours.

We had a bit of an IKEA adventure, a few of us and we left non divorced. So you know, the rumors aren't true.

Although either they found you crying underneath one of those like Swedish beds and it was a sad moment.

I was wanting and longing for my meatballs.

I know you were.

Yes. Yeah, it was great. We're very excited and you know, hopefully the next show will be recorded from our new studio. So we'll see. But let's, let's get to today's show. We've got an amazing show for you guys and before we do, let's get today's Quick Tip. Alright guys, today's Quick Tip is we talked about this in previous shows, but I just want to make sure that you did not miss it. We have launched BiggerPockets Android mobile app. You guys have been begging for this for years now and it's there, it's out. People are starting to use it. We're getting great feedback on it. We actually are also improving our BiggerPockets iOS app, adding some new features to that very shortly, if not already. By the time. You listen to this.

Yeah, like the keyword alerts and instant messaging and all that, right?

Private messaging.

Yeah.

It's gonna be pretty awesome. So if you have not yet downloaded the app on your iOS or Android device, go to the stores, the Google Play or iOS app store and download it. Check it out. That's today's Quick Tip.

Quick Tip.

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Right guys, today's show. Really really cool show this is. By the way, show 148 of the BiggerPockets podcast. You could check out the show notes@biggerpockets.com show148 and if you are on itunes. Oh by the way, Android is launching a podcast app. I don't know when it's going to happen, but we're in the new Android Podcast marketplace even though it hasn't yet launched. So if you also are an Android person, definitely download that app now or whenever it comes out. And make sure to get our podcast and leave us ratings and reviews there guys. Also do it on itunes. That definitely helps us and we're climbing up there in the rankings on the number of ratings and reviews we have. So keep them coming. Keep them coming. We definitely appreciate them, and they help us out. But today's show, guys, Naz Wang is our guest. She is a real estate investor from San Francisco. So for everybody listening, who's thinking, hey, I live in New York, Miami, San Francisco, wherever the heck you are, and I can't invest because I'm in a big city. Please stay tuned because you will find out exactly how this wonderful woman is out there and making things happen. We're really excited. Great show, great energy, and there's a whole lot of cool stuff to learn from her. So pay attention, and let's bring her on. All right, Naz, welcome to the show. It's great to have you.

Great to be here.

That was the first time Josh got your name correct. And that was the, what, the third time we started this introduction.

You know what, Zach? Can you blame me? Can you blame me?

I can blame you, but that's okay. That's okay.

You know, it's hard.

Naz like jazz, right?

Naz like jazz.

Naz like razzmatazz.

Exactly. So, Naz, welcome to the show. Who are you? What do you do? How'd you get into real estate? Let's start there.

I am a human who lives. Get that cleared up.

I'm glad we didn't book the Android.

Yes, there you go. I am from California, and I've been in real estate for maybe about what, nine, ten years or so. Okay, so now you're not just in.

California, you're in, like, San Francisco. Right? Like the most expensive city on planet Earth.

Pretty much.

Right.

I was trying not to bring that up so that people don't discriminate against me, because apparently there's a reputation out there for people who live in San Francisco. Apparently, there is a Francisco. I do.

Right. Okay.

Okay.

And that's. That's why I want to talk to you today, because so many people are always like, I can't invest in real estate. I can't invest.

San Francisco, it's impossible.

La, New York, Denver, whatever. Right? Everyone's out there a reason why they can't invest because they live in a big city. So that's why. So I want to find out today. Today we're going to pick your brain and find out how the heck are you investing, even though you live in San Francisco. So why don't we start, though, at the very beginning? What was your very first deal?

Well, I want to go before that.

Fine, Forget.

Forget her first deal. Like why? Why real estate? How'd you. Actually, I'm taking over. I'm in charge.

Over. I don't want this.

There you go. I can see who's wearing the pants. Sorry. That was funny.

That was funny. And the frightening thing is, I think Brandon probably podcasts with no pants half the time.

Probably. You know, that's the irony. I got jeans on today. It's okay.

Oh, nice.

Nice.

So. So what got you into real estate? Like, why. Why invest in real estate? What? What? You know, what was the impetus?

I. I thought about this story for a long time yesterday, whether I should tell you or not, because my mom might be listening to this, you know, next week, so. Hi, mom. Try not to offend her, but, you know, I'm. My mom's a big entrepreneur. She owned this clothing factory in China. Actually, she ran it for decades, selling a lot of clothes all over the world. So she was one of those types who would just kind of earn a lot of money and spend a lot, too. And, you know, at some point of her career, I kind of looked at her, I was about to go to college, 18 or something, and I thought, wow, like, she does all this work, she makes all this money, and the most reliable asset she has after 20 years of being in the business was two pieces of real estate and some cash in the bank account. So I'm like, well, okay, why all this work? Why don't I just start with real estate and cash in the bank account? So that's kind of how I really wanted to get into real estate. It's kind of like, okay, well, just get to the end and then. Yeah, that's how I started.

Cool.

That's awesome. So she, you know, through the course of her business, had picked up some property. Was. Was that property in China or was it in the US it was actually in China.

Yeah. It was a primary residence that she had, which, like this high end condo that she still owns and then a vacation cabin somewhere in the country.

Brandon, why did you book Naz and not her mom? I don't really. You know what I mean? She sounds more interesting.

Yeah, yeah.

Next show.

Next show.

All right, so we got. You see, your mom's doing all this stuff and you say, you know, how old were you? Were you in college? Were you just out of school?

No.

You were 18, you said?

Yeah, I was going on to college. I was trying to pick a major, actually. That was kind of the college application. Right. So I picked political science. Of course.

I didn't finish up with that.

Yeah, nice. Cool. So how did that transition kind of get you to actually get started in the business?

Well, at college, I ended up renting a house that was a four bedroom house. And at the time, I hated my roommates and I didn't have anyone to kind of move into besides, you know, one other guy. So I said, well, you know, this house is a good deal. Let's rent it and figure out what to do after. So I ended up sort of subleasing all the rooms out and ended up paying almost nothing for, you know, a few years living in this huge house because I was sort of house hacking in a way.

Yeah.

And then I thought, whoa, great. That was easy. Doing nothing and kind of getting paid. So I want to be a landlord. That's kind of how I get started.

Nice. I actually did the same in college. I rented a four bedroom apartment and I ended up living on the couch because I rented out all the bedrooms because I realized how awesome it was to be making money. And I'm in college so I could live on the couch. So, you know, that's acceptable then. Yeah.

So couch surfing your own house?

I did. Yeah. And I rented them all out.

Oh, that's cool.

That gave you the inspiration. Then you said, I want to get, you know, I want to be a landlord. So that's what you do. You're a buy and hold investor, is that right?

Yes, I am.

Okay, so let's talk about your first deal then. Then how did you buy your first property of your own?

Yeah, so that was like the biggest mistake I've ever made in my career. So that'll be fun to talk about.

Yeah, let's hear it.

Freshly married, you know, out of college, got this great job and husband's got this great job. We're getting all cocky and we're like, oh, let's go buy a primary residence. Let's see how much we afford. Right. So I ended up buying a condo in the college area that I went to school.

Did you go to school, by the way?

UC San Diego.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, beach town. It's great, though. I love the condo. While lasted, ended up there. We kind of pretty much went up to the top of our price range and bought a condo. And I hate condos at this point. I've never bought a condo again, but.

Oh, Josh loves condos. They're Josh's favorite.

Yeah, I'm sure. Not a fan. Not a fan. Not a fan. Might be for the same reasons. We'll find out. I guess, as you continue the story, if Brandon wouldn't Keep interrupting.

I'm done. Zip.

All right, so great. Condo's got a pool. How cool is that? So that's why. And there's college students. So if I need to rent it out, I never have to worry about it ever. You know, it's brilliant. And hoe takes care of myself. How great is that? So all those turns out to be negative points.

Oh, college kids in the pool. College.

Oh, exactly. With the HOA members. There you go. So we lived in there for four years as a primary residence, and then we moved on to the next condo I bought. That was great while we lasted, but then when we rented it out, we realized, oh, wow, it doesn't cash flow. So I forgot to do the cash flow analysis part when I was young. That was really stupid. So we're probably ended up losing about a thousand dollars a month leasing that apartment.

Wow.

We really didn't like that. But, you know, at the time, we could afford it. So we kind of say, oh, you know, we just move on to the next investment property. Did it as a primary as well, a condo. And then we kind of just went from there.

I got my hand up, I got a question. Your first condo, the pool one, and then you went and bought a second condo, which was the one that got the loss. Was it the first or the second one?

It's the first one.

Okay, so the first one. All right, so when you bought it, was your intention to buy it for investment purposes, or was the intention to buy it to live in? That's my first question.

So the intention was to buy it, to live in it, and then when we grow out of it, we'll rent it out.

Okay, you didn't. You weren't thinking long term about the actual analysis when you bought it, which was certainly one mistake. You said you made a bunch of other big mistakes in there. I feel like there's a story with college kids jumping off of balconies into pools.

Where's the fun part of this story?

Well, the fun part of the story. Do I really have to tell you?

Yeah, of course.

You're here on the air live with Brandon Turner and his minion, Josh Dworkin.

Minion. I like it.

Perfect. Well, you know, that condo was great, and we had a lot of fun having turnovers every single year because it was a transient population. So, I mean, depends on what you're looking for. You know, students tend to be transient. They don't like their roommates, they move out, and they don't really consider how much it is to change housing. So it costs a lot. For me, as we all know, turnover is the most expensive thing you can have. So every single year I was showing and showing and the way just the condo was set up, it was really difficult to show because there's like four different gates and you have to go to the front gate to walk the people into the second gate. And it was just super duper secure. It was very difficult and it was a lot of work. And then there's a whole bunch of new housing that came up in the area by the school. So rent just dropped and it was just gotcha.

So there's, I mean, there's a few issues there. I mean, one obviously we talked about, which is the whole, you know, if you're going to buy with any intention down the line to do some kind of investment with it, you got to do the analysis, right? So we got that. Two, it seems like the difficulty of kind of accessing it was problematic and I could see that certainly being a problem. The transient population. We actually just did a show last week, I think, or two weeks ago about college rentals. And you know, I think if you take that in mind, like here's the beauty of real estate, I think it's just kind of important to talk about, you know, that doesn't work for you, that wouldn't work for me. I wouldn't want that population either. But some people focus on that niche, they thrive in that niche and they rocket on that niche. And that's the coolest thing about this business is, you know, everyone's like, well, you know, I'm going to be a real estate investor, I'm going to be buy and hold. You got to define it even more. You got to really narrow it down to exactly what you want to do within this business and figure out what's going to fit you and fit your long term goals. So just because that didn't work for you doesn't mean anything. You found obviously your niche later and we'll go there. You had really quickly mentioned the hoa and it sounds like HOA was an issue for you with this and potentially the other property. Is that true or is that not at all the case?

I want to circle back on your point. I actually thought that was a really great point that I wish I brought up because then I would seem more intelligent than I am now.

It's true. See, the thing I like about real estate is that I got to choose who I deal with, right? So I'm kind of my own boss and depends on what you want to Do. So the premise of this whole theory is that I'm a lazy person. I want to use my time really effectively, so I want to do the minimum amount of work to make enough money. So I don't want to be super duper rich and I'm lazy. Right. So for me it was management intensive, so it didn't work out. And it's important for people to kind of think about, well, what do you really want to get out of it? Do you want to have a big corporation and run a whole bunch of employees and. Or just kind of hang out?

I'm going to interrupt you on that again, hold on, because this is really fascinating to me. No, because a lot of people come in here with this dream like, hey, I'm getting to the business because I want to be filthy rich. I want to have everything. It sounds like you don't care and I'd love to know exactly what your goal is. It sounds like as you call yourself lazy. I'm just using your words. I'm not calling you lazy at all. But you know, it sounds like you want to just kind of build a portfolio that kind of takes care of itself that you don't have to work too hard for and kind of live your life. At that point, you don't need to be a millionaire. You just want to kind of live comfortably off your real estate. Is that kind of where you're going?

Exactly, exactly. That's. That's kind of my goal. I've always liked to be lazy, so I wanted to find out how I can be lazy. That's why I don't do a 9 to 5 job, because it's a lot of work. You know, I have to be there all the time, do it the minimum amount of time and just have enough.

So my goal is you are lazy as hell.

That's why I'm a landlord. Right. That's why landlords don't do anything. They just collect your rent check and they go and sip on their martinis.

That's all I do.

You're making a bad image for landlords.

Yeah, a lot of people think that anyway.

Yeah.

So I don't know. I have a. I have the income that I want and I'm there. So I'm feeling pretty relaxed right now talking to you guys.

That is awesome. That's good.

How many units do you have now then? I have.

Does need to come back to the HOA thing, by the way.

Yeah, I mean, we'll talk about HOA. How many units do you have?

51.

51 units. Are they all single family, multifamily, or what are they?

Mixture of. Mostly single families. I've got a 10 unit. I've got a whole bunch of duplexes.

Okay, okay. And those are all in San Francisco? I'm guessing not.

No, some are in California and some is in the Midwest, in Wisconsin.

Oh, okay, now. Okay, we're into that. So before we jump into that, because I want to talk about that hoas. Josh will yell at me if I don't go back to hoas. Right, Josh? Okay, so what is the problem with hoas? Like, why do people struggle with hoas? Or why did you struggle with them? Or did you even. What's the issue with that?

So many faucets. Oh, my gosh. First of all, it's super expensive.

Okay. Yeah.

My ochre at the time was 485 bucks, and it went from 385 to 485 over the course of a couple years. Right. So, okay, 485, 500 bucks doesn't sound like that much. But what do you get out of it? You got landscaping. You get all this other stuff that I don't really care for.

You get a pool.

You get a pool.

You do get a pool and a Jacuzzi. It is a very, very expensive. I mean, gym membership is much cheaper than that.

Come on.

Yeah.

And you get a pool.

And the worst part for me is that you actually have to work with other people to do stuff. You know, modification to your own house. For instance, if you were doing plumbing. Oh, well, every other Wednesday is the plumbing day, and water gets turned off for the whole building. Because the way this buildings are, what are the plumbing set up? You have to shut off the whole building to do any work in any individual units. So it's a huge collaboration between me and the plumber and the tenants and the building HOA person. So it's a lot of work. I don't want to do it anywhere.

It adds an extra layer, right? I mean, it's just, you know, it's enough work to actually manage your tenants and your property. But, you know, now you have to manage this group of people who are in charge of the hoa. And it adds a layer of complexity to something. And that it puts part of the business out of your control is, I think, the biggest issue. That's probably how I would phrase it. There's a bit of a loss. One of the reasons that we all go into real estate is so we can actually have more control than, say, stocks. You buy a stock you have no control over what the board does or the company or the CEO. Now you've got this HOA that's unpredictable. They may vote for something, decide to spend money here, whatever it is, and you know, suddenly your financials look very different.

Right, Absolutely. And then even just back to the control. The second condo I bought, the HOA board actually decided that they don't want anybody to rent out any units for less than two years. So those are things that directly affect your financials. Commonly is one year. So things like that is why I don't work with hoas.

There you go.

Yeah. That's usually what I tell people too, is that somebody else is making your financial decision and it's. It can be dangerous. So.

Oh, yeah.

All right. Yeah.

All right. So you've got 51 units now, mostly single family. I mean, how do, how does that happen when you live in San Francisco and you live in an area where a single family house costs more than, like, I don't know, my entire town? Like, how does that, how does that happen?

It's a long story.

So we got time.

Oh, we got tons of time.

Yeah. Josh doesn't. He's going to sleep. I got time.

Well, you know, so we bought this condo, we rented it out and we just kept buying houses or condo. Well, the second deal was a condo. The third deal was a single family home. It's been single family homes and duplexes ever since. Okay. So at the time, we bought four different properties in California. And that's pretty close to the bottom of the market back in what, 2010, 11, 12 ish. So those properties were kind of my anchor properties because those are pretty much bought with a minimal cash flow. And my standard at the time was if it's less than $200 negative a month, I'm buying it, which is really rare in California. I thought, oh, well, rent appreciation, that's how you make money.

And then those house has really appreciated. So we kind of took out the equity from our existing holdings and we used that to buy cheaper propert in the Midwest. That cash flow really well. And we've bought most of our portfolio in 2014 and 15.

Okay, so, so here, here's an interesting. I had a conversation with a friend the other day who lives in Southern California, and he was looking at a duplex that he wanted to buy. And this thing was like $500,000 and it rented out for a total of like $2,200 a month. And I ran the numbers and I showed them and it was negative $700 a month in cash flow. And, and I showed to him and he's like, okay, well that's not bad, I think I might do it. And I was like, what? And then the longer we talked about it though, like this guy who doesn't even know that much about real estate, he was onto something. And this was kind of the philosophy that we talked about. And I'm not saying you should go do this. This is not what I'm saying. But here's his philosophy. He's like, I don't need cash flow. I've got more cash than I know what to do with right now. What I want is long term wealth. He's like, so the cash flow is going to be offset by the loan being paid down every month. So those are going to cancel each other out over the long run. My loan, like the mortgage being paid down and the cash flow will, will cancel out. So it's almost like I'm just like putting money into a savings account, but I'm buying in a great area of Southern California that I believe is going to go up in value again. That's playing the appreciation game. I'm not suggesting people do that, but it's an interesting philosophy, right? Like he doesn't need the cash flow. He makes a ton of money at his job or his business. I don't know. What do you think of that philosophy? Is that smart? Is that really a bad idea to bet on that appreciation? Hoping that's the only thing going to bail you out long term is California prices doubling every year.

I'm going to add something. $700 versus 200 or less loss. Not an insignificant difference there, but yeah. What's your take on that?

I mean, why would I ever spend money to lose money? That's a business decision. Like I'm gonna spend money to lose money.

That's a no for me, apparently.

I think it's crazy.

Yeah, I would not do it, but.

Oh well. Getting back to the negative 200, I always underwrite my properties with just way too many rules and usually I'm way overshoot for things. So in actuality we'll make about $2,000 of property on those negative 200amonth per year. It's actually positive. Yeah. So I really overshoot. So really I will never pay money to lose money again, ever.

All right, so here's the question, because I think a lot of people, let's call them, well some people, they call themselves investors, but let's call them speculators because that's what they Are a lot of speculators or want to be speculators, Hear about how, oh, California is up 12% per year, 15, 18, 23%, whatever it is. Denver is up 18% last year. Cool. I'm going to buy some property and get those gains and it's okay if I lose a little bit of money. Just because something increased in the past does not necessarily indicate that it's going to continue to go up. But you're somebody who actually said you're willing. Even though you're making money on these and you're not losing the 200, you're willing to lose the 200 because you believe that you're going to get appreciation.

We don't really push the button on this lot. And since I have you and you're willing to do that, I want to ask what is going to be an indicator for you that prices are going to go up? What are you actually gambling on? Because you are doing a bit of speculation here. You're doing smarter speculation than probably the guy that Brandon was talking to and other folks, but calculating that negative 200, just because you're going to make money over time with spec, with appreciation, what do you want? What do you look for in an area? What's an indicator to you that you're going to keep going up?

See, at the time, appreciation wasn't even part of my plan, to be honest. It kind of just worked out that way. It worked out well for me, but I was thinking that rent is going to go up with inflation. So I know at exactly what point that was my thinking. It's not what happened. But rent was going to go up with inflation, which is what, 3.54% a year. And I know exactly when I'm going to start making money. And with the cash flow, I will eventually have all these rentals that makes money. And to have a break even in my underwriting procedures. I've never seen prices like that. So the best I could do was negative 200. And that is actually not a correct assumption. But that was at the time. That was my thinking. And it turns out that appreciation, just because of the negative 200 guideline, the. That pretty much kind of puts me at the bottom of the market or close to, you know, the bottom. And it worked out okay for me. But I guess I never planned to, to. To work on the appreciation approach.

Yes.

Your strategy wasn't like my friends who specifically went into it, or he's trying to go into it knowing he's gonna lose a ton of money, but yours Was more of like you just went in because you didn't know any better and you bought him and. Yeah, okay, cool.

I thought it was, I thought it was more intentional, so.

Sorry, I wasn't that smart. Sorry, I didn't plan that far ahead of time.

No, it worked for you. Right? Like five years ago I would have said that somebody would be crazy for buying a bunch of California real estate, only you know, counting on appreciation. But let's be honest, that person who bought a bunch of properties, losing a few, you know, five years ago in California made a lot more money than I did. Right. So were they really that stupid or were they lucky? I mean, I don't know. I mean that's a.

But that's why I asked the question of what do you, what do you look for? Because, you know, frankly, I don't know. I think if somebody knows the answer to buying appreciation, I'd like to know it. It's the same answers. What's the answer to buying and winning money with stocks? I think it's long term play over time.

The speculation brings up to. You have to time the market. I don't time the market. What I do is I buy things that I can afford to keep. So does that make sense? So it has to cash flow positive with margin in case poop happens.

Right.

And I can't afford to keep it, so it doesn't matter where I buy it in the market, as long as rent doesn't plummet, I can't afford to keep this property. And over the long run, you always have appreciation in real estate. Like if you keep it with 30 years, most likely it will appreciate. So that's my goal now.

Do you calculate a reduction in potential reduction in rent, your formulas and this is a question I don't think either of us, Brandon has asked anybody. Is that something that you include like, hey, rent might go down by 10, 20, 30% over the next couple years. So maybe I shouldn't buy this.

I don't. But I do buy single family homes, which I think is a niche to protect myself from volatile red up and downs. So I think what, in my perspective, if you buy a single family home, you know, there's only so much of them and suburbia development, you know, it takes a lot to develop a whole suburbia and you only have so many single family homes. But if you have condos, you got competitors and people can, you know, build those up in like 12 months. So that's kind of if somebody's willing to rent a house like Afghanistan, you know is a mom and she has two sons and a granddaughter and she has to stay in a single family home. She's got grandkids, you know, she wants a yard to play with so she's never going to move, right? I've got another family who has four kids and the kids are, you know, in elementary school. They're going to stay forever. So you have a niche and you have people who are staying there for a while and people are actually competing to get into a property. That's kind of my thing.

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Well, yeah, I was gonna say why don't we go to the. I want to know how you're investing out of the area. Because right. If we, you know, we started this talking about the. If you live in an expensive area, it's hard to invest. I mean, there is the appreciation play you can get into. But how, I mean, how did you get into Wisconsin? I mean, what, what made you say I'm gonna go invest over in Wisconsin? I mean, how's that happen?

I actually, I listened to your show with Mehran and also with Brit Schmidt and they're the ones who actually gave me the idea of Midwest in that in the general area. My parents live in Chicago. So I was thinking, okay, what is feasible for me in the Midwest? I gotta have somebody who's kind of on the ground to help me with this whole thing. And I just kind of drew a two hour driving radius around where my parents property is. And I said I'm going to look at any city in this two hour radius so that they can help me out with it. And so I did spot about four or five different cities that I was looking into. And I did a whole bunch of groundwork in the beginning, kind of contacting realtors, learning about markets. So I narrowed it down to a few different cities and then I made a trip out there to see my parents and we drove to every single town and spent considerable amount of time there doing research. And Milwaukee just happens to work for me.

Cool.

So I love that, that you did that right, that you got on a plane, you flew to Chicago, you went and visited those cities, you did the boots on the ground work needed, you know, it wasn't just like I'm going to pick this random city because somebody on a podcast told me it was a good idea. And now I'm going to go buy a bunch of properties sight unseen. Because I heard somebody said that they're, you know, making money there.

I mean, it was a good podcast. Don't get me wrong, that Bigger Pockets show is pretty decent.

But you know, indeed, indeed.

Oh cool.

It's fun to go to the Midwest. It's so different in California, you know, and they talk so cute. They sent a boat. It'll be so cute.

You should hear my mom talk. My mom's in Minnesota. My whole Family's in Minnesota, so, you know, they all have the cute little Swedish accents and it's fun.

Oh, that's cute.

Yeah, it's cute. So. So you're investing, you know, overseas, quote, unquote. You're investing at a distance in Wisconsin. It might as well be overseas, Right? There's Wisconsinites. No, I don't know. I have nothing bad to say about them.

I have a lot of bad. I have a lot bad to say about Packer fans. But. But we're not going to go there today.

That's fine. That's not my thing. Although, you know, this is the show following the World Series.

Yeah.

And it would, it would. I've got to say, my Mets lost.

They did.

Congratulations to the Kansas City Royals. They emerged victorious. They did not win. We lost. But anyway, we referenced it last show and I've got to bring it back up. I want to circle back to a really obvious fact. You are female, correct?

Last time I checked, yes.

So, no, I mean, listen, we, we try to get like, we try to be as balanced as we can. Like guys, gals, you know, we, we have a hard time getting gals, ladies, women to come on the show. I don't know why, but I think it's super important to talk to you guys because when we go and we look at our demographics on bigger pockets, when you look at the overall demographic of the real estate investor, it's very, very heavily weighed in favor of guys of men. So, you know, I would not be doing my job if I were not to ask you about investing as a woman. You know, if you have run across or run into any situations where, you know, you face challenges because of your sex.

I did not expect to go there, to be honest. The whole gender issue and the feminism type of thing. But I guess, yeah, I mean, I'm a stay at home mom. Well, okay, technically I'm a real estate professional for tax purposes, but I stay home with my kids. Right. I've got two little ones.

Right.

Just the cutest kids in the, in the world pretty much ever.

They sound it.

Did you hear them?

Anyway, so I have young kids, they're under five. And I'm busy, you know, with just.

Taking care of kids and, and buying 51 units.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

As a female, I guess it kind of just the arrangement we have in our family kind of enables us to, to have somebody who's well, myself dedicated full time to doing this thing that we want to achieve and. Husband works for a tech company down in Silicon Valley. I used to Be engineer myself. That was kind of my profession by training. And I quit when I got babies and I stayed home and we're doing this full time. Well, I was doing this full time, so it worked out okay. A lot of people do ask me about it. I'm actually kind of working on that pitch. You know, people ask me, what do you do? I don't know what to say. Sometimes I don't know.

Real estate investor.

Yeah.

My wife says the same thing. She really struggles with that question, well, what do you do? Because she doesn't have a, you know, she doesn't go to Starbucks anymore. She used to work at Starbucks. You know, she manages our rental properties. But she's not an official property manager. She's a, she's a landlord. Right. So she really struggles with that. Every time somebody asks her what she does, it's like, well, I have rentals and, you know, I don't know, it's weird. Like she's working on that pitch as well.

Yeah, the landlord, the landlord question doesn't get good answers though. Usually doesn't get good responses.

Yeah.

Oh, you're a landlord.

That's the problem. That is the problem. That's why we do what we do. That is one of the reasons bigger pockets exists. Like we want to change that perception. I mean, we. You're a stay at home mom that's buying rental properties to take care of your family. I mean, clearly you're a horrible person. Landlord. I mean, it's so silly. It's so silly. All right, so back to this female thing. I mean, beyond being a stay at home mom and the actual ability to answer that question, I mean, have you faced any issues, challenges or. No, it's just kind of par for the course. This is what I do. And the reason I ask these questions is this. There are a lot of women who listen to this show. And at the end of the day, I think we need more female role models in this industry. And so you being a successful real estate investor, who's running the portfolio, not your husband, he's not doing it. He's out gallivanting at the Silicon Valley. Yeah. So you're busy doing this. So you are a role model and so we've got you on the show. There's tens of thousands of people and thousands of thousands of them are women listening to the show. What would you say to the women who are on the fence saying, you know, this is a man's world?

I don't think that's true. I think it depends on the personality Right.

I think one of the biggest things I think is important in this show, in this industry, is that you have to be good at math, and you got to do your cash flow analysis. That's like, the first thing that you need to learn how you make your money. And you can be a woman or a man to do that. And I really haven't faced any challenges, not predominant ones anyway, as a woman. But, I mean, I'll get talked down to every once in a while by the old timers, you know, be like, oh, you don't know anything. Be your husband on the phone or something like that. I'm like, well, I am the husband. This is my company, so you work with me. Okay. So I've had that a couple times, but it's really not a big issue these days. But I've noticed there's predominantly male hosts or guests on your podcast. I counted them, actually, the other day. I think it was less than 10 women.

We honestly asked equal numbers. We just get shot down by a lot more women. It's like high school again.

So I don't know. Speak to yourself, because I didn't have the nerve to even ask.

Okay, that's true. Yeah. You know, we just pretend. All right, so let's go back to your. Your out of the area investing, because again. And there's a lot of people listening who want to do that. Now, I got just a few questions to ask you. Like, like the basic. How did you. How do you find them when you live out of the area? How do you finance them and how do you manage them? Like, those. The three questions. I guess I'll fire all three at one time. Do you.

So I fly out to my properties quarterly. Okay. So every three, four months or so. I mean, I. I do a family trip too. Right. My parents happen to live there, but I do go look at them, and I do want to make sure that everything's going the right direction. So did you look for the.

Yeah. When do you go there? Do you look for properties while you're there to go buy, or do you buy them all online?

I buy them all through. I have a pipeline set up. It took a few iterations to get the right people to work for me. So I have realtors and property management company that I really like to work with. Actually, they're the husband and wife team, too. That just kind of ended up happening that way. But we went through bowls and bowls of realtors before. We find the right ones. That works for us.

Yeah.

And we find rehabbers or people who are contractors, who does our work for rehabbing. We constantly kind of have little meetings, kind of autocorrect what's going on and make sure we're on the same page as I answer your question. No, that was.

No, that was good. What about financing? I mean, that's kind of how you manage. That's how you do the contractor stuff. And you know, you have realtors, so you're obviously buying on the mls, correct?

Yes.

And then what about financing? Are you just doing typical bank loans? I mean, people always say you get shot down after 10 loans, you can't get any more. What are you doing?

Well, we have equity and we have savings. We are kind of. We save a lot. We save about 75% of our income.

Nice.

So we have, you know, we're ready for it when. Once the opportunity is there. And then after we use all that up, we do the BRRRR method. And we did that for a few times with portfolio lenders. So we bundled up, you know, a few properties together to kind of took some equity out. And then after that, I actually currently working with private lender, a particularly investor who was interested in investing with me. I didn't really look for it as family, but it kind of just worked out that way.

Sure. Nice. And so for those who don't know.

What you're talking about, the BRRRR strategy, just in case you've never listened to the show before and you haven't heard me talking about that, that's where you buy a property, you rehab it, you rent it out, and then you refinance it and you pull your cash back out. So you were basically. You'd buy properties, get it rented out, get it fixed up, looking good, and then you can get your money back so you can go and do it again. And you're using a portfolio lender to do that?

That's correct.

And what is a portfolio lender?

For those who don't know, portfolio lender is pretty much banks that manage their own portfolio, which means their own cash reserves. Instead of going to Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac, which is the Federal Reserve, for their mortgage funding source, they actually use their own money, which means that they're a lot more lenient on how they want to structure their loans.

Okay.

Okay. I want to ask you one more thing about managing the managers. Managing the property manager. That seems like it would be difficult. I mean, I have a property manager who's terrible who lives in my area, really.

She's.

I've just had terrible experiences with, with my rental Properties with her, by the.

Way, really quickly you make fun of.

Me for not firing her yet.

A. And B, it's astounding to me that you have not yet had your property manager listen to the podcast. And. And I think maybe she does. I think you haven't because you're definitely afraid that she's gonna find out how much trash you talk about.

I do talk about. I know, I know. I don't want her to listen. No, I mean, like, it's tough to manage your property manager. I mean, granted, I gave her two properties, one of them burned, so it's not even rented anymore. And we're dealing with insurance on it. So it's 5050 right now. And, you know, I'll take care of the rest later. Which I got more fun stories, but I'm not gonna go into them. But. Yeah. How do you manage your property manager? What do you do? What do you do? You call them all the time? Do they just do things right the first time so you don't need to bug them?

I used to call them every day. You know, now I talk to them probably like once every two, three days because we're still buying, you know, gradually. But.

Yeah.

So I guess there's a huge trust factor there too. I've gone through a lot of property managers too, and they were just, you know, they charged a lot and they didn't do the job. I once hired a property manager that took a month to rent out something that was totally rental ready. A month? A month. So it was unacceptable. But this particular company I'm working.

They'Re doing funny faces for those people who can't see it. I can't concentrate anyway. So these people are great, though. I really love my property managers. So I talk to a lot of people on the phone so it doesn't just come easier. It's not like I'm lucky or anything. I probably Talk to like 100 property managers on the phone before I found the one who was just like, you know what? You're it.

What stood out for that one? That was it. What was the one thing that stood out for them that made you say okay? Because, you know, 100 people, that's a lot.

Well, okay, this needs to come with some background. I used to be a engineering sales that sells heavy, whatever, equipment. Right. So I'm pretty good at telling apart bullshit with truth. And these people didn't lie to me on the phone. That was honestly the reason when. When I hear lies, I can detect them. And these people don't lie to Me on the phone. They were very honest, they were straightforward, and they weren't the cheapest one. Actually, they weren't. But I believe that to have a good team, you need to feed them well. Sounds bad, but you need to make it a win win situation. Everyone's got to make money in this thing, and you get what you pay for. So that's kind of my thing. I heard him. I'm like, awesome. You're.

It's great.

Trust is huge, though. I love it.

It is. It is.

Well, cool. Well, hey, let's shift gears real quick. I know we could probably talk to you forever, but I think we could. I know. Let's shift gears and we're gonna move over to the world famous fire round.

It's time for the fire round.

All right, the fire round. These questions come direct out of the BiggerPockets forums, and we're gonna fire them right at you. Number one, what are the pros and cons of buying a short sale? Somebody asked, what are the pros and cons of buying a short sale? I'm not sure if you've done short sales, but I want. That was one of the questions we grabbed. So what are the pros and cons of buying a short sale?

I've made offers on short sales, and they never really kind of come back timely. It takes forever. You can get a really great deal every once in a while, but they do take a very long time, typically. But sometimes it takes a couple months. And it. I've had ones that has been lingering, still lingering. And I made the offer in 2012.

Yeah, I got one of those too. Right. Every, like, six months, they're like, are you still interested? I'm like, yeah, I'm still here.

Yeah, exactly.

All right, cool. That's good. Fair enough. Fair enough. All right, next question. How much. And I think you kind of answered this, but how much cash flow? No, you answered it back in the day. Today, how much cash flow for rental property would make it worthwhile to you? So what is your criteria as far as cash flow is concerned today?

15% return on investment.

Okay. Okay, got it.

Actually, 15% net. So if you finance it, your return investment is more. Closer to 40, maybe. And I don't buy anything under 15.

Okay, so 15 if buy now.

Cash.

Yes.

Okay, got it.

So essentially sort of like, I know, 15 cap. Yeah, 15 cap. But you don't use cap for single family houses. But same kind of concept, same idea. Cool. Okay. And which is, of course, you can get more easily in the Midwest and you're going to find in San Francisco, so.

Absolutely, yes.

Cool. All right, next one. Are homes built in 1900 worth investing in? Should I even consider a house built in 1900, like.

Like over 100 years old?

Yeah, yeah.

I personally wouldn't, just because it's. It's probably on some sort of historic registry or something like that, and they cost a lot more to remodel them. But I. In my portfolio, I personally like wrenches built in the 1950s. It's just they've treated me well, and that's kind of my niche, so I'm not gonna. I don't personally.

So I think my oldest one is 1894. I think my oldest property, I think My fiveplex is 1894, I think. But yeah, I mean, it's just a nice old house, but yeah, I mean.

Was there any difference in, like, the amount of maintenance you have to do in terms of.

If that one is 1894, which I'm thinking it is, there's like no maintenance on that one. But it's been cared for over the years, and that's what really matters, I think more than anything is whether it was cared for over those hundred years. And that's hard to tell. So, yeah, I generally don't advise people buying them that old, but you can. You can do it. So.

All right, Josh. Yeah. My brother's got a hundred plus year old house that apparently the underground railroad kind of went through it or around it. I think they've got tunnels under the home. It's on the historic register, and it's an absolute nightmare. It's like the money pit, if you guys remember that Tom Hanks movie. But, yeah, anyway, all right, last question. The fire round. How can I find out what the differential is between the value of a distressed property and the retail value of SFRs in a particular area? So basically.

If I find a distressed property, how do I know it's distressed versus sfr versus just a standard retail property? I think it's kind of an obvious question, so I'll just throw that home run to you.

How do I know it's distressed? To me, it doesn't matter. I mean, I'm looking for 15 cap. So 15 cap, if you know me. 15 cap. I don't care if it's your grandma selling it or the bag. To me, it doesn't make a difference.

Hey, real well, real quick on that 15%. I want to run back to that real quickly when you say that. Let's just say, for example, you find a property that you could buy for $10,000. Right. But it needs $20,000 worth of work. So now you got 30 into it. That's the number you're basing your 15 return on. Is that 30, right? Not the, not the 10 total?

Yeah.

Okay. Total investment, not just, not just the purchase price. Okay, perfect.

That's what I thought.

Cool.

Okay, well, that is the end of the fire round. So why don't we, why don't we close this thing up by heading over to our world famous Famous Four. All right, the famous four. These questions are asked of every guest and I'd love to know your thoughts. And I know you listen to our show, so you probably know what's coming. Number one, what is your favorite real estate related book?

I don't read about real estate. That's the truth. I thought about it. I wanted to sound smart. But I don't read real estate. I like to read sci fi fiction. So what happens is the husband reads it and he gives me like a Reader's digest version.

So your husband who doesn't do any real estate is reading the real estate books while you're reading Larry Niven and other fun things?

Yes, I like to read promotions and stuff like that. But I do want to mention that the biggest, the most influential idea I got from wealth management real estate book is probably Kiyosaki's book where one part he mentioned that there's two types of. Oh, there's two ways to spend money. You can either buy a liability or you can buy investment. So liability is things that you spend money on that you have to spend more money to maintain it or investment, which means you spend money and it gives you money in return. So that has really kind of shaped my spending habits.

Nice.

And that's Rich dad, Poor dad, the book, Correct?

Yes, correct.

What's the best sci fi book, by the way? Just to add to our famous four, we'll stack it. Because you're a sci fi fan and I am too.

Dune.

Dune.

I tried to read it. I couldn't get into it.

Yeah, I couldn't read that book.

I'll try it again.

I saw the movie when I was a kid. Never fully watched it.

The David lynch one or you know.

The scary one with the big giant worm that goes and like.

Yeah, well, yeah, the first three quarters of the book is hard to get into. But then the next six books is just fabulous.

Maybe I'll keep trying. I'll keep trying to.

All right, you don't read real estate. What about business? Do you read business books? At all?

No, I read the Bigger Pockets forum a lot.

Nice. That's a good business book.

Yeah, it is. It's interesting to see people's ideas. They got tons of good stuff on there.

Fair enough. Fair enough. What about hobbies? What do you do for fun? You got your two little rugrats running around. What do you guys do?

We go to parks a lot and then wait around a lot for the kids to kind of finish what they're doing.

Sounds very exciting.

Yeah, I don't know. Sounds weird. I like to do math. Mathematical analysis. That's just funny. I love math. I do. And it sounds really nerdy.

Nerd alert. Nerd alert.

We should have T shirts, Josh, that say something like, I love math. Bigger Pockets.

Really?

Yeah.

Real estate investors are math nerds mostly, so.

Or science. You know, I like to read science magazines like Discovery or Scientific America or something like that.

Fantastic.

Cool. All right, my last question of the day. Naz, like jazz, what do you believe sets apart successful real estate investors from those who give up, fail, or never get started?

I think doing the groundwork is obviously one of the prerequisites, but also, you know, as real estate investors, things are difficult. Nothing was going to be easy, but it's all about how you can figure out a way to make it happen. Right. So. So the people who are actually trying to think of it in a void to. To make what they want happen happen are, you know, the successful ones, and then the ones who are just like, oh, you know, it's too difficult, or, you know, it's impossible. I don't want to do it. There's always a way to do it, and you kind of just have to get in there, spend the time, and, you know, get on with it.

Cool.

Hey, can I see one more quick question? And I know it's not part of the famous Four. I just popped my head. I want to ask you, when did you. You said you listened to the BiggerPockets podcast, that one with Mehran where he talked about investing in Milwaukee. How many properties did you have before that? And then how many have you bought since that?

Were you just at the four before that?

No, I probably had a couple in Milwaukee, and I think I bought something, like, probably 10 unit, 10 doors in 2014 and the rest in 2015. So this year has been a big year for us.

Okay, so you had a few beforehand, and then when you heard that podcast, that's what really made you commit to more.

That's true.

And I just want bragging rights, so I Can be like.

Yeah. So what you're trying to say here is biggerpockets is responsible for you having this kick ass portfolio.

Yeah, entirely. And for me and my children's future.

There we go.

Wow. Put the pressure on.

You guys are doing great stuff up here. You know, I really enjoy the shows.

Oh, that's great. Hey, Naz, where can people find out more about you? Where can they find you?

Bigger Pockets is probably the biggest place.

Perfect. Perfect. Awesome. All right, well, listen, it's absolutely been a pleasure, a whole heck of a lot of fun, and we definitely appreciate having you. You coming on our show. I can't even say things correctly, but we're definitely glad you decided to join us and we will look forward to seeing you on the site.

Glad to be here.

All right, take care.

Take care. Bye.

All right, guys, that was Naz Wang. Big thanks to Naz. She's awesome. She is rocking it, man.

She is. She is doing really, really well. She's definitely passing me up. And, you know, pretty soon she's gonna pass up like Serge and the rest of the world, so. I know.

Yeah, but she doesn't want. I mean, that's the coolest thing.

That is cool, right?

She doesn't want to. She doesn't need to. She's not in it for any kind of like, hey, I want to be the biggest, I want to be the, the best. I mean, she's building a portfolio exactly for her own purpose, which is to just kind of have. Have enough property to live off of. That's fantastic. Yep.

I love it. I love it. So, yeah, definitely. You know, it's something I've been thinking a lot more. More about lately. You know, like, we talk to guys like Grant Cardone who's like, you know, 10x your stuff and get a million properties and make millions of dollars, and. And then this is kind of the other end of the scales. You don't necessarily need that. You know, I was talking with Chad Carson, who was on the podcast a few weeks ago, but me and him were just talking the other day about this concept that, you know, we all get into real estate investing for financial freedom, but then most. Most people that get into real estate end up just, like, getting back into this race to achieve something, and then, you know, 50 years down the road, they're like, what the heck did I just waste 50 years of my life doing? Like, and then they remember, oh, yeah, when I was a kid, I just wanted financial freedom. And so, like, why? Yeah, why not remember that right now? And yeah, I thought that was just kind of cool philosophy.

Yeah, I think it's awesome.

Cool.

All right, guys, well listen. Thanks so much for listening. Obviously, this is the BiggerPockets podcast. Obviously you guys enjoyed it. Show148 check out the show notes@biggerpockets.com show148 and if you have any questions for Naz, leave them for her there. Otherwise, thanks for listening. Please spread the word. Let people know about the BiggerPockets podcast let them know about the BiggerPockets website. Tell people. Share us on Facebook, Twitter, G, LinkedIn, whatever social networks you use. Share our content Share the site. Invite your friends to join you on the site. Build your network on BiggerPockets. It's a great place to be. Thanks for being a part of our world and we'll see you next week at Show 149. I'm Josh Dworkin, signing off.

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Thank you all for listening to the BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is is produced by E and K, copywriting is by Calico. Content and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.biggerpockets.com. the content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk, so use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose and remember past performance is not indicative of future results. BiggerPockets, LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential or other damages arising from a reliance on information presented in this podcast.