154: Finding Incredible Deals to Flip or Rent from 3,000 Miles Away with Bob Couture

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This is the Bigger Pockets podcast show 154.

But I think that's the beauty of real estate, right? It is. I couldn't sell it, but I have other strategies, other exits to it.

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What's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dworkin, host to the BiggerPockets podcast, here with my co host, Mr. Brandon Turner. And a very Merry Christmas to you, Mr. Turner.

Merry Christmas to you too, Mr. Josh Dworkin. How you doing? And Happy Hanukkah.

Oh.

I know. Belated, belated. But, you know, in my defense, it is currently several weeks before Christmas that we're recording this, so Hanukkah has not actually begun yet. Am I correct?

Wow.

Am I wrong?

Do whatever you can to dig yourself out. This is our third or fourth take of this, and, you know, we can't get it right, so I just become.

More racist every time we do this.

Unbelievable. Well, hey, everybody, thank you for listening. We're really excited to have you here today. We've got a really cool show and we're going to get to it in just a minute. Before we do, let's get to today'. Today's quick tip. Tip. Quick tip. Today's quick tip is you guys. It's the holidays. Take a day off. Enjoy the day with your family. And if you're listening to this, when it's not the holidays, I don't know, take the day off today.

That's a good quick tip. We all got to take some kind of time off. I'm guilty of never doing it, so maybe I'll listen and actually follow my own directions.

I heard a keynote speech this summer. It was by a guy named Grant Baldwin, and Grant was talking about, like, actually schedule time off for, like, you to take time off. Like, don't just assume I'm going to take some time off in the future. I need to have time off. He's like, go to your calendar right now. Mark a big X and say, I'm not doing anything that day. And then when somebody calls you up and says, hey, hey, can we hang out on Saturday? Be like, no, I can't. They're gonna be like, well, what are you doing? Oh, I'm not doing anything. And they're like, well, can we hang out?

No.

Whatever it is, I'm not doing anything. Right. Yeah. Like, his point was, yeah, make time in your schedule to not do anything to, you know, just be with your family or even by yourself. And Just, you know, not work. So that's a good quick tip, Josh. Way to think on your feet.

There you go. There you go. On my toes. On my toes. Well, all right, guys. Today we've got a great real estate investor to chat with. Before I move forward really, really quickly, we want to thank everybody, everybody, for leaving us ratings and reviews. This is the last show of 2015, and we're super excited. All right, today's guest is Bob Couture. No, he's not related to the MMA fighter or Juicy or his good friend Juicy.

Bob is a real estate investor living in Southern California and investing in Massachusetts. And Bob's got some really cool processes that he uses to actually do that. He doesn't do any kind of turnkey stuff, but he's actually built a system that works for him. It's great. And perhaps it'll work for you. So pay attention, and let's bring on Bob. Welcome to the show, man. It's good to have you here.

Great. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, yeah, it should be fun. Today. You are our most bald guest we've had yet. So that's exciting.

Way to just start there, you know.

I got to start there with. Yeah, you're also probably the most fit.

I don't know.

You look like you could take me in a fight.

Yeah, I might have to now after that.

Yeah. Okay, so his address is.

So, Bob, how's it going?

Yeah, how you doing today?

I'm doing great. I'm doing great.

Yourself?

Both of you. All well? All well on the. Where are you in Washington and Denver.

That is correct. All well here? Yeah.

The winter season. Where are you located? Stop talking, Brandon.

I'm in Los Angeles.

Oh, nice, Nice. What part?

Hermosa Beach.

Really?

Oh, Hermosa is awesome. Yeah. Nice. So is that where you do your real estate?

No, I invest in the greater Springfield area of Massachusetts.

Really?

So let's talk about that. Are you from Mass. Or are you. How did all that come about?

Yeah, I'm originally from West Springfield, Massachusetts. Moved out to California after college. But then when I decided to get into the real estate piece, when I looked around and what I could do in Los Angeles with the money I had, I said, well, I know Massachusetts. I had a good support network there. I grew up renovating houses and doing painting, interior exterior painting with my dad as a kid, and he was. He was looking for some projects to do. So that's how it kind of all got started back there. Saw what I had and where I could do it, and I Understood. Massachusetts. I understood that area. So I figured I'd. I'd go there and invest.

There you go.

Can you let us know a little bit about who you are? I mean, like, what do you do? What's your investing strategy? So people have an idea of what you're doing from a long distance?

Yeah, sure. I'm half of SNC Homebuyer, so my other half, my partner is Justin Simmons. So he's the boots on the ground. So he lives in that area. He has his construction supervisor's license. He manages the projects, gets the rehab numbers here out in sunny California. I burn up the phone and.

Fill up his calendar, get some leads there. We do a lot of direct mail. We also network with a lot of agents, try to get them in front of a lot of houses, and then I'll do the negotiations. My piece of it is the acquisitions and dispositions part, so.

Bringing those deals to the table and then going from there.

Okay, cool. Let's take it back to the beginning. You had talked about you grew up renovating houses and doing painting and stuff with your dad. Was he a contractor?

Painting contractor? Yeah. And then went on to do some remodeling.

Okay, so you were kind of raised up through this culture. What kind of triggered it for you? Like, hey, I want to start doing this. I want to get into the business. Business.

I kind of joke that I was the last one to know that I was supposed to get into real estate.

I grew up in that industry on the contractor side, and I think my father expected me to kind of take on that business. But I went off to college, went on to do other things, worked in corporate America, did some time with the military. And then once I came back from a deployment, went back to a 9 to 5 job, and I just couldn't find myself. And I was trying to figure out, what do I want to do with my life? And my wife kept telling me, real estate. Her family's in real estate, commercial real estate. And then I thought when they said get into real estate, it was being an agent. And that didn't seem very appealing to me. And then this world of real estate investing opened up, and it's like, there it is.

So how did that happen? Tell us about the beginnings.

I came back from a deployment from Afghanistan. I went back to my job at an aerospace and defense company. It was about six months into it, and I was like, I can't. This is not for me. This wasn't what I wanted to do anymore. And I was talking to my father, and he's like it was winter, so things are usually slow. He's like, well, let's do a project together. Let's look at, find a house and do something like that. It's something he always wanted to do. And then it was born from there.

Nice. So what was that first project? What was the first deal?

It was Colonial in Springfield, Mass. This house was. I think we got it for 1, 120, 125, put about another 25 into it, and then tried to sell it at the 180, 190 mark. And it sat on the market and sat on the market and sat on.

The market.

And it never sold. I had gone on to two other projects. You know, we started it too high and then I became an accidental landlord. From there I decided, well, I'm not going to sell it for a loss. I think I can try to make it a rental. And. And we went from there. Beautiful house and everything, but I learned some good lessons out of that one.

Did you ultimately sell that property or do you have it in your portfolio?

No, it's probably one of my best producing rentals right now.

Right on. All right. So you get in, you think you're going to flip this house and you get stuck with it, but you were able to hold on, obviously, and reap the benefits of the property long term. You said you did two projects thereafter. Were those flips and were they successful or what happened with those?

No, went on to another one and rehab that one. And again, that one wasn't selling. And then we were coming into the winter and so am I going to hold it for another couple of months or get a renter in there? And so I was kind of doing a dual strategy. Had it for sale and trying to do for rent and take whatever came first.

Yeah. So on the pricing, obviously you got the pricing wrong in the first one. Sounds like you got it wrong on the second one. I'm assuming at some point in time you realize, hey, I can't keep overpricing it or my comps are screwed or something's wrong here. Like, what am I doing wrong? What was this like, aha moment that your pricing wasn't exactly correct on the first one was.

I was taking the advice of the real estate agent and where I knew better. But when I could be leaving 20 or $30,000 on the table, I'm like, wow, that's the expert. I'm going to go with that. The second one, that was about. I thought I had the price right. It's just it was not the right neighborhood for it. So I think comps wise, it was great. It was just the type of house. And so I learned from that. It was a sub 1000 square foot house and just that was just not ideal. Great rental, but yeah, I screwed up on that one. And then I started becoming more and more conservative on those. My pricing on my arv.

Yeah.

So in a way, what you kind of, I mean, you kind of became an accidental landlord, but you figured that stuff out. A lot of people I know, they try to flip houses, especially if they don't sell. I mean, I know people that just give up. They just say, you know, I'm done. You know, I quit. I like the fact that you said, you know what, I'm going to figure this out. We'll make it a rental. Maybe we'll sell it someday in the future. I mean, do you have plans for selling it when the market. It's better? I mean, the market's probably better now than it was then, am I right? And how long are you going to hold that property for?

Well, I've used both those properties to put into a blanket loan to be able to invest in others. And so. So I'll have these for, for about five years.

Okay.

Or I could go and sell them, but there, there's some penalties with that. But I think that's the beauty of real estate, right? It is. I couldn't sell it, but I have other strategies, other exits to it where if it was a stock, it's either sell it or hold, and that's about it.

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I love that you're, you know, you, your mind thinks that way.

That's cool.

I think that, you know, it's one of the traits that I think is most important for a new investor is just that being able to figure it out. I mean, we talked about that last week or the week before on the podcast here, but just that trait of figuring it out when you're not sure what to do. So, you know, kudos to you on that. So your first few deals were those failed flips. I'm assuming you eventually got better at flipping, am I right?

No, no, we're still doing. Not kidding.

So why did we book you on the show?

So tell us about first successful flip.

That happened to be the one that I did not want to flip at all. I got this house. I was doing another one at the Cape. So that's on the other side of the. At the very end of the state. So I was kind of back and forth in Massachusetts. I'm bouncing from Western Mass. To Eastern Mass. And then I get this house from a website lead and I didn't want to, I didn't want to flip it. I was trying to wholesale it and, and then no one was biting. It wasn't a great wholesale deal, but it would you. There was some room to do some work on it. And this is a house where I learned about that. You don't have to, don't over rehab it. I did the least amount to it. And it was one offer, one sale. It was the quickest thing and it was the best one to date. And the great thing out of this too. And great things happen from some bad experiences. This seemed to be a really bad deal going in and it ended up being a great flip. And I got to meet my business partner because I tried wholesaling him him the deal and then we got to talking and you know, found out that we're both like minded guys and then, and then realized we were the pieces of each other's business out that we're missing.

That's cool.

That's cool. So how many flips have you done total now with. With your partner?

With my partner. We're in our 12th one together and then each of us did five. Five each before partnering up.

Okay, okay. So you're figuring this stuff out. That's cool. I want, I want to dive a little bit into this idea of finding the deals before we go too much farther. You know, we talk about finding financing all. You know, you mentioned direct mail and we haven't talked about that on the show here in a while. It's been, you know, a lot of episodes since we talked about that. So can we dive into your direct mail business a little bit? Especially because of the fact that you live across the country from where you're actually doing the work. So it shows that people who are living in LA or San Francisco or whatever could potentially partner with somebody in another area that does the boots on the ground work.

Hold on. And before you go into that, Bob, I'm just curious, if you didn't have that, that personal knowledge of western Mass yourself, would you feel comfortable investing there with your partner or not?

No, no, not, not on the offset because when we first partner up we didn't know each other. So I mean I rely on him a great deal about his knowledge of that area. But you know, it's. That relationship has taken a while and, and that trust is developing. So no, I'd probably have a lot of trouble with that.

Okay, right on, right on. Yeah. And so that's something that would just come over time. And I guess the real quick question is if you're looking to. For the listeners, I don't want to lead people to think like, hey, you just need to find a partner who's an expert in an area and get into bed with them. Because it's kind of hard. There's like a romance that comes before getting into bed with people. So.

I guess my personal belief is you should not just jump into bed with somebody and expect them to be the expert. You have to feel them out, make sure you kind of feel comfortable with the area and with them. Before you do that, would you agree?

Oh, absolutely. And I'll add on to, I still go back. I go to Massachusetts once a month. 1 I think it's important to be on the ground there to visit with my partner, also to network with our, our bankers, our private lenders. And you know, it's not. Shouldn't just be that guy out in California. I want to be on the ground and meet the contractors too, in our A team. And so I think that part is really important. The beauty of it for me is my family's over there, so I get to go back for my business and I get to be with my parents and my sisters and visit everyone. So I try to create my lifestyle around this business and. And social talk. Right.

Cool.

All right.

All right, let's get to the direct mail stuff.

Yeah. So, yeah, I just want to know, I mean, like, what are you doing for direct mail? What does it look like? What kind of letters are you sending out? Is it postcards? I mean, what kind of. What's the specifics look like?

Yeah, now it's much more branded on our mail campaign. I think if you had on in the past Tucker Merrihew and he's got the deal Finders Academy. And so we've kind of styled it after some of those things, done some of our own. We've tested a lot of different things from postcards to Brandon mail to the yellow letters. And we're continuing to test and measure those things to see what works out. I find the branded pieces are better for us because the phone may not ring as much, but when they do, we're on the same sheet of music.

They know that I'm a home buying company and I want to buy their house. It's not. Not Bob Couture wants to move his family into your house and trying to offer you something. And so, so I think that, that, that's been working out for us.

So you're not sending a piece of yellow lined paper that just says, you know, I want to buy your houses or something like that. You know, it's. You're actually sending, like, something nicer, like a letter.

Yeah, absolutely. Handwritten letter. And then we'll go through some different sequences. We'll send out a postcard just in case that if that gets returned to sender, that's it's less expensive for us.

And then that's a good tip.

Then the second one will be a handwritten letter.

And then we kind of move on from there. It might be a printed letter as we go through, and then the last touch might be a postcard as well.

I don't think. I don't know. I don't know if it just never occurred to me, but that's a fantastic tip. I feel like it was just kind of casual for you, but I don't know. I never heard that before. Send out postcards first, and then you get to see who's going to be undeliverable, and then you don't have to send to them the letters again. I don't know. I like that idea a lot.

I just realized that, like, about a week or two ago as we're trying to figure out 2016 and doing the plan. And so that. That just came to me just recently.

So what do you put in the letter? Well, forget what do you put in the letters. Who do you market to? Who are you actually targeting with your campaigns?

A lot of driving for dollar leads, and we'll also target absentee owners. I know that that's a very popular one. So we got most of our competition.

There's how do you mail driving for Dollars? People I don't fully understand. Are you driving and then finding them and then mailing them, or are you finding some list of.

So we have some bird dogs, some interns that are driving, and then we'll mail those out. So they'll identify houses in some form of distress, take those addresses down. They'll do some research on the owner and the mailing address, and then we handle the mailing from here.

Okay. Yeah.

All right.

So, Bob, I have a question about this whole. I want to. I want to dive into the topic of having other people do your driving for dollars, because we talk a lot about driving for dollars. I mean, it's one of my favorite strategies. And, you know, but it takes time to do that. Obviously, if I'm gonna go get my car, that's not very scalable I can't be, you know, analyzing deals if I'm driving for dollars. I can't be doing a lot of things if I'm analyzing or if I'm driving for dollars. So you mentioned you have other people doing this for you. How does that work? You know, do you pay them to do that? Do they get a commission or do they wholesale it to you? Or how does that all work?

So we have it set up in a couple different tiers. One, it's not paid by the hour. We're kind of exchanging services. So one is they're driving for dollars, creating that list that we're mailing out. So it doesn't cost them anything other than their time and their gas and all that. And then in return, we're offering to take them on to walkthroughs on properties and showing them rehab costs of that. So they'll walk through with my partner, Justin, he'll kind of take them through that piece because that's the part where we're finding newbies or new wholesalers. Don't understand those. Those construction costs or those rehab costs. So that we think is a really good trade off. And then if that leak comes in, then there's a flat fee of if I'm negotiating the sale, then we'll give them a referral fee. Or if it comes in and they feel like they're ready to kind of take on that negotiation, then they tell me what they want, they'll wholesale it back. So, you know, we have the marketing piece in place, and then when it comes in, they decide which way they want to go. Are they ready to kind of take on that negotiation? If so, they their own. Their own fee. If not, then. Then there's a flat referral fee.

That's cool.

I love that for a couple reasons. One, I mean, it obviously frees up your time so you don't have to be out there driving for dollars. And all those people that, I mean, every day I get an email from people, right, that are like, how do I get started in real estate? How do I. How do I know what this stuff is? How do I find a mentor? How do I do all these things? Like, it's such a good way for them to be able to learn as well. So it's like such a perfect. I guess, I know you call it partnership or whatever, like symbiotic relationship or whatever you want to call it. I know. I think that's fantastic. So, yeah, I mean, is that your primary way? Do you think you're finding deals or is it more from the list that you're buying? Or what would you say, I think.

On that, on the driving for Dollars, it's taken a while. So it's not the primary or our mailing is not the primary. It's about a third of where our deals are coming from. And then the driving for dollars piece is probably half. Half of that as well.

Okay, okay.

And then what else is MLS getting stuff with agents still, or where would the rest of them come from?

For sure, it's MLS is a piece, but specifically on the MLS, it's the REOs and short sales.

And then our network is probably the other third. Referrals or with attorneys or agents, things like that.

Okay, great.

And you're a real estate agent, right?

I do have my license, so use it to sell our properties.

Got it, Got it.

Do you find that helpful? Do you recommend other people do that?

The other license? I think absolutely. For us, it works out great. One, it is the power of the MLS and having access to that so we don't have to kind of wait around for an agent to view a property. So, yeah, it works out great. And also it helps us too, on the back end on the disposition of the property, that sale, to keep a little bit of that. That commission in house, too.

Okay, so here's a question about that driving for Dollars. I know we're jumping all over the place a little bit, but going back to the people that are working with you, if somebody's listening to this show right now and they're new and they're a newbie and they want to do that kind of a job for somebody, they want to get out there and meet a guy like you. How should they approach somebody like you? How are you going to take them seriously and actually want to help them find you deals? You know? How do you think they should approach you?

Well, I think it's. Our very first one was Matt Scott, and Matt was really good about, hey, I want to take you out for coffee, learn a little bit about the business. I want. And he offered, I want to intern. I want to learn what can I do for your business to help you. And he's kind of really kind of the catalyst to that whole internship program. And he's. He's still with us and kind of growing in as our business grows too. So that's been really great. It's an exciting story.

But the.

For others, we've probably gone through about 20, 30 people that said that they wanted to do this, and then when they actually have to Go out and drive or do something, they just fall off the face of the earth. And it's like, oh, this doesn't just happen, or you're just not going to pay me to go and learn in this industry. So we've got a couple really quality folks now that are really trying to learn and grow their business and understand. But I think it starts off with that, but knowing that you've got to give a little bit. And I think we might be at a point where we're going to ask for X amount of leads before we start investing some other time. And it sounds like a little cold, but when you go through about 20 or 30 people that want to learn and then they fall off the face of the earth and you're spending this time with them, it's tough. I want to give back. We want to give back. We started the Real Estate Investing association to give back, but there's only so many hours in the day, and then you got to filter through those that are serious and those that are not.

Yeah, yeah.

It's so true.

So of the 20 or 30, what, how many actually ended up coming through and doing what they said they were gonna do?

Three.

Wow.

Yeah. Well, 10%.

I did a webinar last night, and I said this exact thing. I said out of night, out of everyone here, there's like. I don't know, there's like a thousand people there. Said, out of a thousand people here, 90% of you will never take action on anything that we're talking about. You'll never buy a property. You'll never get out there. You're going to be too afraid. I was like, 10% of you will actually do anything. I find it on bigger pockets. I find it everywhere you go. It's like 10% of people actually do stuff, even listen to this podcast. But 90% of people here are not going to invest in real estate. You know, I hope to change that. I hope it's, you know, 90% do. But, you know, that's just the fact that most people let fear or whatever it is stop them from actually taking action. So, you know, listen to Bob here.

There's something else that this was kind of an informal kind of research on it, but I started polling some folks that got into real estate investing and actually did a deal. And I asked them to kind of think back. How long ago was it before you decided you were going to do this? Then when you took action? And almost all of them, it was about a year. So if I find someone that just said, I Just started. I decided, I think I'm going to start telling them, let me know how things go in six months or a year and I can help you from there. And if they're still around at that point and I'll help them get, get to wherever they want to go. But I think the year mark is it. I think it takes that year to overcome that fear for whatever reason or get the ducks in a row to be able to move on.

Yeah. So in terms of somebody who's serious. Right. Okay, you're saying it's a year, but I don't buy that. No offense to you. I think that's, I get that that's how it's worked out, but there's gotta be some other signs that somebody's serious. Then they've been around or they've thought about it for a year. So are there other traits that these people have shown? Have they done something in that year? What's going to happen in that time period? I don't think it's time alone. But what exactly has occurred for those users, those people in that time period that makes them any different than the other ones? Can you think of anything?

Yeah, a plan. Those that say, I'm going to buy a property by this date, this property looks like this, this is how I'm going to pay for it or find finance. Those are the ones that you know are going to go. And then for us on the, the internshot side, it's those that are actually are producing the driving for dollars. They have gone on to buy property, have gone on to do something else because they're interested in learning and getting there. But I think those that have that plan forward are the ones that are really interested and you learn pretty quick like, so what do you want to buy? Why are you interested in this industry? And when they're not too sure about that answer yet, or if that's not clear, it's going to take them a year for that picture to get clear.

What's in that plan you mentioned? I think you used a different word, but you mentioned criteria. I think the types of properties they want to buy, two bed, two bath, between X and Y price, yada yada. What else would somebody want to or need to have in this plan that.

They'Re putting together their support team in terms of knowing that they have a, maybe an attorney, that in Massachusetts we use attorneys, not escrow agents. So having an attorney so that that support team, an agent, the attorney, their contractors, the understanding, the, their finances, what they want to buy and what that looks like. So it's not. Some say, yeah, I just want to buy. But then they're thinking of, well, I'll go into multifamily or I'll be a landlord or I want to flip. So understanding which flavor of real estate investing.

Are they looking for? I think those pieces go into the plan. What area? I've had one guy, he was kind of bouncing back and forth from Boston area to the western Mass area. And it's like, you got to pick one.

Yeah, cool.

I like that. Yeah. I mean, to go back to the year thing, I mean, I know exactly what you're talking about in that, you know, there's so many people that you know, maybe want to like. They tell me, they take me out for coffee. I used to go to coffee with everybody who asked. Like, everybody. Because I'd be like, yeah, sure, no problem. And out of all the people I've ever gone to coffee with, I can think of like two people who ever bought a property, you know, and everybody else is still thinking about it or they're no longer in it anymore. And so I know what you're saying. Like, I kind of wanted to say, come back to me in a year and if you're still interested, then I know you're serious. Because there's so many things in this life, right, that are exciting for a few weeks. I mean, for a while I wanted to do, you know, start this business or be part of this or join this mlm. I didn't want to join an mlm. But you know, like, people are always wanting to join these like, things for like a few weeks or a month maybe, and then they get bored or they realize it's more work than they thought and they, they go on to something else. I want to, I won't. I don't want to like, interact too deeply with people until after they're past the honeymoon phase, if that makes sense.

Well, the shiny object portion, yeah.

So it makes perfect sense. Alright, so you're doing direct mail, you're marketing these letters. You get the phone call. You're the one answering the phone. So I want to talk about this a little bit because I'm selfish and I'm, you know, gonna pick your brain because I want to do this. So I'm working with. Actually funny. My little brother's moving out to the Boston area. And so we've talked about whether or not we want to work together on real estate. He might want to flip a house. And so I said, well, maybe we can work together. You Know I'm on the east coast or west coast, he's on the East. How do you guys work that? I mean, you answer phones, obviously does. Then do you do all the negotiation till the end and then you send in your partner to go inspect the property or how does that work between the two of you?

So I'm trying to get down to seeing what's the least amount that they're going to accept for the property, the homeowner, and getting an understanding of what level of repair it may need. And then based on that, if we can find ourselves in the realm of 50 to 60, 70% of ARV, then that's the right time to, to deploy him, to go to that house, walk through. Now sometimes people aren't going to give, give that number and if it's in a desirable area, he'll go out. And so yeah, we really, I gotta really try to filter that down to something that it seems like a good lead to send him out to those houses because taking in quite a number of phone calls and he'd be out there all the time. And actually that was happening in the beginning. I said, you know, get a phone call and, and before even really knowing where we are, go, go get the rehab numbers. And.

That wasn't working out so great.

Yeah. Because I mean, so what I want to do is have my brother probably answer phone calls and have the flip out in my area is probably what I ended up doing. And as I was afraid of is he's going to get these phone calls from direct mail marketing and be calling me every day like, okay, go look at this property, go look at this property, go look at this one. And that would just drive me nuts. I don't have the time to go look at dozens of properties a day because I, I'm here hanging out with you guys on bigger pockets. Right. So I need to simplify, like I need to make it the time make sense. So when you're on the phone with those people, do you tell them that you are, you know, you're across the country? Do you not let them, you know, not let them know that? Do you say your partner is going to come look at it? I mean, how's that work?

So I have a Google voice number that is for that area. And then if it does come come up, I'll let them know that I'm in Los Angeles. And there's often I might go back to once a month, so I may be in town and be able to view. But then I always say the person that's going to come view the property, is my partner. He's going to do the numbers, and then I'll be calling you, calling you back.

And people don't ever put up any kind of weirdness about that at all. Like, they never say, oh, because, you know, you're building the trust with them. And then your partner is going to actually kind of almost close the deal in a way. Right. Do people have a problem with that ever?

No, because he's going there really not to. Well, he's there to build a rapport with them. But get the rehab numbers. I'll be closing that negotiation with them.

And you just do that over the phone? Phone primarily.

Okay, nice.

Very cool. Yeah, this is good. This is good because, like I said, I really wanted to do this stuff. And I know a lot of other people live in expensive areas, and maybe that's a job that they can do if they have a brother or sister, cousin, aunt, whatever, in an area that's more prime for investing. You know, this is a really good strategy if you can find the right partner like we talked about, not just anybody's going to do, but if you can find the right person to work with.

And you know the area, and you know the area. Comfortable. Yeah.

And can I give you one tip on. On the mailing is have that mailing go out postmarked somewhere locally. Oh, okay. So I had hired a mailing service and it was out of, like, out of Texas. And every question came up is, this is a scam, it's coming out of Texas. You're from Massachusetts. So we're mailing everything out of Massachusetts now just to avoid that question. And then when I started too, I was sending stuff from California, so. Or if I'm calling from the California number, sometimes I make an error and I'll call from my cell phone and then like, what's this California number? Then you tell them that's where I am. But it just. It's something that you could avoid, or.

You'Ve already built this layer of distrust when it's coming from somewhere else. And you gotta kind of peel away from that. If you're mailing it from that area, you won't have to deal with that at all.

That's awesome.

Yeah, I love that. I love that advice. I love it.

So what do your letters say? I mean, you don't have to give us the exact content, but what's kind of the gist of what you're putting in there? You got the post card. What is the process and what is the flow of the content of the mailings.

Sure. So that's just more of a. We buy houses. We're looking to buy houses in your area. It could be any level of either from just some minor repairs to.

A major renovation. We'll buy the house for cash. We'll close quickly. A lot of the standard language, and then that will handle the closing costs. You won't have to deal with commissions and agent stuff. But it's a branded as well. So it has S and C. Home buyers, they know they're buying from a home buying company, wants to buy from them, and we go from there.

Okay, and do you happen to track your numbers precisely. And if you don't want to share, that's all right too. But like, you know, out of everybody who calls you, you know, how many of those do you end up actually going and looking at or approximately or how many do you end up closing of those phone calls?

Calls.

Yeah, we are overall. And this is not just from the mailing, but it takes us about 30 offers to close on one house.

Okay.

Okay.

That's. Yeah, that's not. That's not terrible. I mean, I like having those numbers because, like, my mind thinks like a funnel, you know, I like to think of how many offers can I, you know, or how many deals can I look at on my desk? How many can I analyze of those? Of those, I analyze how many can I make an offer on? Of those I offer on, how many will get accepted? And of those that get accepted, how many will get closed at the end of the day? And so it works.

And I was going to ask what that is. So you said of those offers, right? So you make 30 offers. How many of those are you actually hearing back? Are you getting a response to how many are actually going into negotiation to lead to that actual one final deal?

That's a tough one because I would say about a third where we get into negotiations, about 20 of those will get ignored. And, you know, 10 we get into negotiation. And then others, we're finally, you know, six months or a year later, they're like, hey, I still got that offer from you. Is you still want to talk?

Okay. Yeah. So people come back and, you know, no doesn't necessarily mean no forever. It could just mean momentarily. So what do you say? I mean, when you make an offer, and this is something that I'll admit that I'm not very good at, I feel weird making offers. You know, I've been doing this for a long time, but I still am not very good at it, I feel like, so what do you say when you make an offer? Do you tell, hey, I'm a fact, something over email, something over mail, something over, or do you just tell them right on the phone? You know, I'll give you $50,000. How's that sound? Like, what's your process look like?

It's a little both. So when I come back onto the phone with them, start to kind of feel them out for what the offer is, we're almost kind of talking about what that offer would be.

And then I already know what that number is going to be if it works. And I say, hey, I'm going to send you, I'm going to email you this offer right now. And even if it doesn't work, work, if that number doesn't work for them, I'll still send them that offer and say, hey, keep it around, keep us as a plan B and, or I'll follow up with you in a couple months and see if things change.

Okay, cool. So you typically you're kind of doing over the phone, but you're also emailing them the offer. Do you ask for their email address somewhere in that process? I'm assuming then yeah.

Okay, and if I don't get that or if they don't have one, I'll put it in postal mail.

Okay.

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Okay.

Very cool. All right, so moving on from, moving on from that area, let's talk about.

Let'S talk about the deals themselves.

Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say let's talk about like you're, you get the deal, you buy the deal. First of all, how do you finance it?

Okay, so we've done it a number of different ways. So we were really learning out through this year because our partnership started this December last year, so we're a year in. And so we were trying to kind of merge these two companies in two different ways of doing business into one. So one way of financing is we had cash, we were buying houses with cash and then trying to refinance with the bank because we couldn't really find the bank to be there in time to be able to close. So we'd have to close twice and get refinanced. And we were having some trouble with bank finance financing too. It's taking such a long time. You know, 60 days, 90 days. We were getting through. We got through two. Two flips. By the time the bank came back on the first one, we're like, you're gonna have to change the address.

We're three houses in. So. So we've been working out the relationship with the banks. So that was one way. And then another was crowdfunding. So we use that. And that's been. That's been really good. We've done two deals using crowdfunding, and that's great. That gives us a really good confidence that someone's going to be there if the bank is not there or if we don't have the cash at the time. And we know if it's a good deal or not, because if they don't fund it, then it wasn't really that great of a deal.

Can we talk about that for a little bit? Because we've never had a guest on who's used crowdfunding. I don't think anyway.

Maybe. I'm not sure.

Yeah, I don't think so. First of all, for people who don't know what that is, what do you mean by you use crowdfunding?

Well, the funding source that I use is fund that flip. And it was a crowdfunding. It was an online. You just go online, request your criteria, they fund the deal, but then they go back out to accredited investors that backfill that funding, if that made any sense.

Yeah, say that again.

Okay, so they'll fund the deal. So we need 150,000. So that crowdfunding source will fund the deal, and then they go back to their investors to backfill that fund.

I get it. Okay. Okay.

Well, it's a little different than, like the portals where you put a deal in and then, you know, the accredited investors can come in and, you know, they see it and they decide if they want to put up X amount of dollars to be a part of it. I mean, this is all managed by.

This fund, the flip guys.

Right. If I had to wait for the other accredited investors to go in, we never know when that'll happen. So it could be a week, it could be a month. So, yeah, they. They'll fund it up front, and then they make that offer back out to the investors, and then you can watch it get funded by the end credit investors. Hey, you're at 50% funding, you're at 100. But that didn't really. I mean, it matters in the long run, but for me to get my deal and get working I've already got the money to go and go do that.

That's cool.

Okay. So they'll look at it, the company themselves, they'll vet the deal and they'll say, okay, this is a good deal. We're going to finance you. They go out, they find other people to, as you call the backfill, or give them the money that they spent to finance the deal to you. Presumably they come up with some kind of rate on that and that's it. Okay, Interesting.

Yeah, I'd not heard of that strategy.

Yeah, I hadn't either.

So how does that compare with hard money? If you're going to go with a hard money lender who's charging, let's say, I don't know, 12% interest, 13, 14% interest. How is that? You don't have to tell us necessarily. I don't know if you can tell us exactly what interest you got. But, like, how does that typically compare to me?

I found it like the, the Goldilocks of funding because on the hard money side, it was fast but very expensive. So where we were was they're talking 15, 16% with, with points. On the bank side, we're at like 5%, but it's taking 60, 90 days. So, you know, good rates but really slow. They are at around 12% with three points. And I get the money in in about a week. So it was just in the sweet spot for, for us. Definitely help us keep the momentum going. And yeah, it worked out really, really good.

Okay. And for those people who don't know what is a point, what are we talking about when you say there's three points or something like that?

A percent interest on the overall deal.

Okay, so like a $200,000 deal, one point would be $2,000. That sound right?

Yeah, yeah. Bingo. Yeah. Okay.

I did my path right there. All right, so crowdfunding, kind of cool. And there's a lot of companies out there that do it. I've read about them, I've talked to some of them, but I've never actually done it because, I don't know, it makes me like. It's like a new thing that hasn't been around for a long time. Do you recommend other investors should go out there and try that? Should they wait until they're more experienced to try it, or do you think it's worth looking at it right away?

I think you need to be more experienced. I know for fun, that flip, they want to make sure that you've done a deal or there's extenuating Circumstances either that you're a contractor or something that you have some kind of experience before they'll land. I vetted them. I was a little nervous about it because here's this online site, and I believe it was J. Scott was on the board. So I went on to BiggerPockets, said, hey, what is this crowdfunding site? And it gave me a little bit more confidence of who they are, and so it worked out great.

Cool, cool. So what price ranges are we talking about for these houses that you're buying? Buying?

So we're buying in around 75 to 150, 200,000 range, and then. And then resale at the 2 to 350.

Okay. This might just showcase my ignorance here, but I didn't think, like, Massachusetts. When I think of properties there, I would just imagine like 800,000.

He's a Western Mass. Big difference. Okay. Big difference.

I didn't even know there was a western.

Yeah, it's.

A little bit different out there. Okay.

There is a casino going into Springfield, so it's going to be on the map here soon. You're going to.

Okay.

And there's something like, about basketball over there. I don't know. A guy named James Naismith. Was that the guy? That's right.

That's right. Basketball hall of Fame. Yeah. And volleyball in that area, too. So big, big area.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right, cool. All right. So you're buying these properties for. You said like the 75 to 150, you're selling them in the 2. Would you say, 2 to 250 or something like that range?

Yeah, about 3.

3.

3. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So those are good numbers. How much are you putting into those kind of deals? I mean, how much work do they need?

40 to 60,000. Oh, 40, 60,000.

On the higher end is when we have a septic system. So on the higher end, when you have to deal with septic and you're.

You're.

You're going to be looking at. At higher rehab costs, but yeah, for the most part, that's. That's about where we're going to be.

All right.

All right. Very cool. So let me ask you this kind of last question about the process. Your partner is like the boots on the ground, and he's a. You said he was like a general contractor. Is that right? Or something like that. Right. So does he do the work himself? Is he hiring it out subs? How does the actual work get done?

It's hired out. So. And so this was kind of a learning piece for him. Too, because he did all his deals by doing all the work himself. But there's, it's really hard to go and continue to look at rehabs and, and it would just crush the flow of it. So, yeah, he's been hiring all that out and he's done a great job of pulling together our, a team of subcontractors here to get these houses done.

Okay. Okay.

Very cool.

Very cool. Awesome.

Josh.

No, I was going to say it sounds like you've kind of put together a pretty cool process. I mean, running this company from 3,000 miles away, it can't be easy. How many times a year are you going out again to visit?

I go about eight times a year.

Eight times a year. Okay. So I mean that's a substantial amount. And your goal beyond meeting with your partner, are you scouting areas? Are you looking for new potential places to invest, new markets, new farms or what's kind of the idea there outside.

Of Massachusetts or that particular area and where you're investing? Yeah, we're looking to expand to another county and then just pushing in a little bit into Connecticut as well.

Got it.

And what is your long term goal? Like where are you planning, heading with this business? You want to buy more rental properties eventually or is it just to flip and make a ton of cash or what's the long term goal for us?

So the flipping business is to make the cash and then we each have our portfolio of rentals and so we want to build that for ourselves, our respective families to have those there. So the. Hopefully there's not too many of the failed flips that have to kind of fall into the category. But yeah, that's where we see ourselves this year. It's going to be really focused on getting a lot of our systems down and perfecting the single family flip. And then, and then the following years we'll be developing a rental portfolio for, for our, for that company there.

Okay.

Job. Gotcha.

Cool.

Gotcha. Hey, my last question, Bob. So your license is in Massachusetts, correct?

That's right.

Okay. And you were able to get your license in Massachusetts despite living in California?

Correct.

Did you need a physical address to do that or is that just.

I used my parents address in Massachusetts, but I did take the one in California first and then they had like a semi reciprocal program over there. You still had to take the test, but you didn't have to take the education part.

Okay, gotcha. Perfect.

Cool.

Cool.

Well, this has been super, super informative. I mean like again, I, I really want to do a lot of what you're doing. I want to pick up my flipping in the coming years. And so. And I know I can't do it all myself, so I know I'm gonna have to bring on my partner. And most likely that'll be my little brother because we work really well together. So that's been good. But before we get out of here, let's move over to the world famous fire round.

It's time for the fire round.

Fire round. These questions come direct out of the BiggerPockets forums, so we're gonna throw them at you. Number one, let's see, this is kind of a rental one. So I'm looking to buy a single family with a renter already in it. I have requested the payment records and the lease agreement. What else should I be looking for when I'm buying it?

Look at the records of any improvements that were done over there, if anything on the mechanicals, the heating system.

Any of the upgrades that were done to that property. I think taking a look at that on the rental side, I would just.

Say that I think that's missed actually a lot of times. I think people just, they kind of walk around, they maybe do their own inspection, but they don't ever find out what exactly the history of what's been going on here. What have you done the last few years? Years.

Records.

Yeah, I mean, not a lot of people, not everyone's going to keep them. But if you can get that, like, oh, the furnace was updated two years ago, or hey, the furnace hasn't been updated in 35 years. You know, like, those are pretty important to know for long term planning for a rental especially, so. Great.

Cool. All right, what should somebody look for when trying to find a partner to do deals with? So if you, you know, knowing what you know today, if you were to start looking for a new partner to work with, what would you, what'd you look for?

Well, what worked out for Justin and me is that we were the pieces that each other were missing. So when we look back at our businesses, we were finding ourselves going through this pattern of hustling, hustling to find a house, then you find a house, then you're hustling, hustling to get that thing out on the market and then you're done. And now like, oh, crap, now you gotta restart that marketing machine again. And going. So for us, the way it worked out was I wasn't, I didn't have that expertise on the rehab side, but I felt that I was a pretty strong marker. I can keep that marketing machine Moving all the way through as he's focusing on getting the houses to market, getting those rehab. So if you're going to look for a partner, don't look for someone that has the same skills as you do. Look for those missing skills. And I think that's what works great. And then someone you get along with. I mean, it's.

Rockefeller that had that quota. It's a friendship founded in business is better than business founded on friendship. And we've developed our friendship through the business because we were like minded but brought different skills, complementary skills.

Yeah, I love that. It's gold. All right. What are some tips you would give someone who's trying to buy a property outside of their state?

Boots on the ground. Having someone definitely there that gets to really, really know that area. So. So go there, go travel there, go and you know, buy that plane ticket, drive those streets. Definitely something that you want to do.

Perfect. Cool. Cool. What's the best type of neighborhood? What are the best types of neighborhoods to look for when looking for purchases? And that's really a tough question to answer. I'd say what are the kinds of neighborhoods that you specifically look for in your buying criteria?

School districts.

When it's got a good school district, I think that.

That'S where we want to be anyways. So yeah, that's what we look for. Good school districts, good communities, you know, low crime. And I think the good school districts and low crime are going to come together. So that's where we want to be.

Awesome.

Cool.

Awesome. I love it. You know, I actually never really cared about school districts much until, I don't know, was it four or five months ago we had somebody on the podcast talking about that because I never really thought about it. Right. I don't have kids or I don't have kids yet. And so like I never really thought it was a big deal. And then yeah, we interviewed someone in the podcast. I was like, you know, that is a pretty big deal. People care about that kind of thing apparently. So anyway, I didn't did a ton of research in it and now like that's one of the main things I look for.

But yeah, people move a block away to be in a good school district versus where they are. Yeah, it's crazy.

Yeah, it's huge.

All right, well, cool. Well, hey, let's move on and wrap this thing up with the famous for famous for. These questions are asked of every single guest every single week. So you probably know what's coming. But number one, what is your favorite.

Real estate related book Millionaire real estate investor Gary Keller.

Awesome.

Just finished that one a little while ago. And that really kind of helped bring things into focus. And it was timely for me because it's as we're doing our 2016 operating plan that kind of brought really helped me figure out the pieces that I need to put in place and kind of forecast. And it was great.

Great book.

Okay, all right, what about business books? Is there a favorite business book?

Yeah, the business book. So for 2015, for me, I was really focused on doing the direct mail and sales and negotiation. So I was looking for sales and negotiation books. And Zig Ziglar's what was it is Secrets of Secrets in Closing the Sale was great one. I think Zig Ziglar is fantastic and really just about kind of ethically based selling and looking for those win wins and you know, so that was a fantastic book for me. And if I can add another one on, like the self help or productivity side, I really enjoyed Miracle Morning and that's really gonna help me develop, you know, get up early now and, you know, get my professional development set. And I'm feeling I'm much more productive these days.

We've actually got Hal Elrod, the author, scheduled to come on a BiggerPockets podcast in like a month or two from now, something like that. So it's on the schedule. So. And we've been communicating, so yeah, we'll get him on the show and talk a little more about that.

That's a good one because, yeah, I.

Love that book too. I love the book. Changed a lot of stuff for me. So. Cool. All right, let's see. Next question. Josh.

All right, Bob, so what are your hobbies? What do you do for fun?

I've got two young kids, so for us it's family and travel. So I think that's fun. I mean, I used to have hob hobbies like golf and skiing and all that stuff, but the, you know, to try to carve out five or six hours to, to go golfing, that doesn't.

Go very well over here.

So the. So yeah, traveling with the family last. Last year we did the cross country trip with the kids and to off to Massachusetts. This past summer we went off to Russia for a number of weeks. And so that's been a lot of fun. So, yeah, doing stuff with the. The family. Family.

Cool.

Cool. All right, my final question of the day. What do you believe sets apart successful real estate investors from those who give up, fail, or never get started?

I'll put it into the not having the Proper roadmap. And I use the roadmap as an acronym map. So the M mindset, just not having the proper mindset. You were touching on this earlier of those that are not thinking about how they can do something, like they quit on it. So I had a colonel that you said, don't take tell me what I can't do. Tell me how I can do it. And so having that mindset in this industry, you got to practically will things to happen and then creating that environment for yourself, being around supportive people. I've got a wildly supportive family. I've got a great business partner. I surround myself with positive people that can get things done. So that's one abundance is the other the A part of it and just kind of giving back and wanting to give back and helping others. We've done that with our RIA that we started. And actually that was born out of Bigger Pockets. It was on a forum and people were like, where's there a meetup for real estate investors in Western Mass. And there wasn't one. So I answered that guy, let's start one ourselves. And then it went from there. So that was pretty cool. Yeah. And then perseverance. You gotta stick with it, and particularly with the direct mix. And a good example of that is last summer, I started a mail campaign. It started in June. This lady received four letters from us, and it took her until November before she responded. Get there in November, do the negotiation. It took another three months before she decided. Three months. And it's giant snowstorm before she decided, like, hey, I'm done. I'm ready to sell. You know, you got to hang in there. That was good. What, eight months, nine months before that came to fruition. And I think a lot of people would have quit by then. And so I think those are the three pieces. That's the roadmap.

Cool.

I like that.

I've not heard that.

Yeah. Cool. All right, great. Josh, last question.

Yeah. Where can people find out more about you? You're on Bigger Pockets.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. You can find me on BiggerPockets, LinkedIn or bob@sc-homebuyers.com Perfect.

Well, Bob, thank you so much for coming on, man. We really do appreciate it, and lots of luck as you continue to build out your business.

Oh, thanks. It's a real honor to be here and like being here with you guys today. Thanks.

Awesome. We'll see you around. Bye.

All right, guys, big thanks to Bob for coming on the show. We really do appreciate it. Merry, Merry Christmas to you. Go be with your family. Get out of here. I'm Josh Dorkin signing off. Signing off.

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We wish you a merry Christmas we wish you a merry Christmas.

I'm sure that's not copyrighted.

So bring us a big pudding and bring it right here. Isn't that where the song goes? That's a demanding song.

No, don't.

Don't use that.

Okay.

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