334: Work Hard, ENDURE, & Keep Hammering, w/ Bowhunter Cam Hanes.

This is Jocko podcast number 334 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

Good evening.

We were sitting by a thick section of reprod, a logging term for young timber, when I heard the high pitched bugle of a male elk. The 15 foot tall trees shifted like the parting of the seas and a massive bull stepped out onto the logging road. I was leaning on my knees trying to look invisible as the black horned 6x7 bull bore holes through me with his eyes. He was in bow range. And when I decided that I should try to kill him, the thing I'd been practicing to do for months, I realized that it felt like my arms were asleep and my heart was beating out of my chest.

I don't know if I can even pull this bow back. The bull stood there only 40 yards away from me. There was no question I should be able to kill him. I'd shot thousands of arrows at this distance all summer. I pulled back the bowstring and released.

The arrow missed. The bull shot behind his butt. That meant I was about 7ft off my mark, which was ridiculous. This was what I'd call shitting the bed. My first bow shot of my life at an animal couldn't have been much worse.

I didn't get another opportunity that day. But something was ignited inside me. I never had any real ambitions or goals for myself. But something changed. Now all I knew was I wanted to kill a bull. So right after that first day hunting debacle, I became obsessed and hunted for the next 18 days straight, determined to succeed.

That's right, 18 days straight. Finally, on September 13, 1989, I killed my first bull. The first animal that ever died from one of my arrows was a small, young spike bull. Granted, it wasn't anything like the giant 6x7 I blew it on, but it didn't matter. It was my first bow kill and my first bull bull elk. Truth is, I didn't deserve a big bull. Yet I hadn't paid my bow. Hunting dues and size aside, I didn't know many guys who had even killed a bull with their bow. So my spike bull accomplishment still felt special. It was almost a three week grind, but it was worth it.

Some people live their whole lives never finding their true passion. I was 20 years old when I first tasted bow hunting success. And that marked the time I discovered my purpose. Suddenly, I had something in my life to focus my energy on. I quit college and quit about everything else just to be able to bow hump more.

I'll never forget where this journey began and how long it's taken to hammer away at a dream. We all have to start somewhere. Nobody is born great at bow hunting. The average success rate on hunting a bull elk with a bow is about 10%. So that's one kill every 10 years, or one guy out of 10 who is going to have success.

That's never going to be good enough for me. Never was, never will be. Average sucks.

Nowadays, I earn success on virtually every hunt in every state every year. So I expect to be 100% when the average is 10%.

That said, I didn't wake up one morning great at bow hunting. I have worked for more than 30 years to get where I am today. It's not talent. It's drive. It's not raw ability. It's endurance. Hunting is my passion, and being successful at it is what fuels me every day to get better than the day before.

And that right there is an excerpt from a book which is called Endure how to Work Hard, Outlast, and Keep Hammering. And if you haven't figured it out yet, this is a book written by an individual named Cameron Haynes. Cameron Haynes is one of the most highly respected and successful bow hunters and in the world.

In order to get there, in order to get to that level of expertise and ability, he has lived a relentless life of utmost discipline and unmitigated focus.

And I guess since he's got this book and he's written some other books that he's an author, and I guess since he trains hard, he's an endurance athlete. And I know that he represents brands, and I know that he's fast and runs businesses.

But first and foremost, he's a bow hunter, one of the best in the world. And we are lucky enough to have him here with us tonight to share some of his experiences and some of his lessons learned along the way and how they apply not only to bow hunting, but to life. Cam, thanks for joining us, man.

Yeah, it's a. It's an honor to be here. Thank you, guys.

That's.

That first one, huh? That first shot was a. The first shot you took was a miss.

Oh, it was terrible.

Do you know what you did wrong?

Yeah, I mean, I just was wrapped up in the moment. Adrenaline was going crazy. You know how it gets coursing through your veins and you. It's kind of a new experience and so intense with that bull coming in and the reprod spreading. Like I said, I could see the tree shaking as it came down, and I'm just like, holy shit. What is Going on. And I'd been watching the bull because I was up there the night before on Friday night, Saturday morning, the season open. So I've been watching from about, I don't know, mile and a half away or a mile. So I knew the bull and I knew what we were, you know, what the focus was, and it was a big bull, and I knew all that from afar. But once. Once it gets in, its. In the showtime. So I think I just hammered that trigger of my release and probably peaked, you know, when I shot and just missed. It was brutal. It's rough.

Well, we'll get to some of the. Some of the. More of those experiences, and I'm sure you'll. I'm sure I'll share some of my very limited experiences, but.

Definitely can get kind of crazy out there.

Yeah, that's why we love it, though. That intensity.

Yeah, no, yeah, we'll get to those kind of things. You know, it's. I think the term that you use with me is it can be heartbreaking. And I was kind of surprised, you know, the first time I went. I went hunting. I thought that no one told me that it was like a 10% success rate. I kind of thought, like, hey, you just go out there and, you know, when you're used to shooting with a rifle, like, hey, you know, you shoot at something, first of all, you can shoot a lot further away. And second of all, when you shoot it, it's easier to hit it where you want to hit it, and it has so much force in a bullet that it's gonna cause some massive damage and, you know, shit dies. Yeah, it's not so easy with. With a bow and arrow.

No more variables. And then it kills by hemorrhage. So whole different thing. Shock, muscle, bone, get broke apart with the. With the gun. With archery, it's hemorrhage. So it's where you hit that animal.

Well, let's. Let's. Before we jump into where you're at now, let's go back a little bit to the beginning and where you came from and where you grew up. Going to the book. This book. Freaking awesome. Order it. Order it right now. We're going to cover a little bit about. Of it today. So many stories in there, so much detail. It's just an awesome read. So let's go to the book a little bit and talk about where you came from. You say here the biggest legend around Eugene origin or Oregon when I was a kid. Oh, wait, what's it. What's the stress on Oregon? How Are you supposed to say it?

Oregon?

How do. How do. How are you supposed to not say it?

Oregon.

There you go. I'm dangerous on that one. Or again. All right. The biggest legend around Eugene, Oregon, when I was a kid was long distance Olympic runner Steve Prefontaine. But for me, it was my dad. Bob Haynes was Superman in my eyes. In a town known as Track Town, usa. My dad excelled at the sport. He earned a full ride scholarship at the University of Oregon in gymnastics and after flunking out there, earned a full ride at Oregon State for track where they wanted him to pull pole vault and high jump.

That's a freaking athlete if you're gymnastics and track.

Yeah, he was a beast. And he just grew up. That's all he did. Track, you know, junior nationals. I had his scrapbook, so I'd like always just look at his scrapbook and headlines and all these things and just a great, great athlete.

Beast.

You say? He and my mom. Fast forward a little bit. He and my mom, Linda Brown, met at South Eugene. I never forgot something she told me when I was 5 years old. Your dad legs are so muscular. They're as hard as this wood table, she said as she pointed out our oak coffee table. Little comments like that made him seem larger than life. We covered a book on this podcast, it's called Wooden Leg and it was about, it was about an Indian and his name was Wooden Leg. And the reason they called him that was because he could just like go and just keep going.

Yeah.

So got them genetics.

Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.

Going a little bit more forward again. On May 30, 1975, Steve Prefontaine died in an automobile accident earlier that evening, Steve had won a 5000 meter run at University of Oregon's Hayward Field. He was only 24 years old. The place where he crashed on the winding, narrow Skyline Boulevard is now known as Prease Rock. Four years earlier, another car accident happened only 10 minutes from Pre Rock. Nobody got killed, but it might have helped tear a family apart. It's one of my earliest memories of my parents when they were still married. In fact, it's one of my only memories. I was 4 years old and I woke up hearing my mother yelling. I went to find her standing by the door, heading into the garage, talking loudly and frantically to my dad. When I stepped to her side and followed her eyes, I noticed the side of my dad's car was damaged as if he had just hit another vehicle. I didn't know this at the time, but my dad was an Alcoholic. Thankfully, Bob Haines was able to walk away from this accident. Not long after that, my parents divorced.

So that's what. That's what was going on when you were. That's like your earliest memories, or really, you say your only memories of your parents being married. Yeah.

And then, you know, then they were divorced, and I'd go back and forth, so I. But them together. That's about. That's about it. One other night, my dad, he. Once college was over, he'd play softball and he came home one night. I remember he must have slid in the base, and he had a bunch of blood running down his knee. And I was. I remember sitting there watching TV and looking at that. So those two. That's about it. That night after the softball game with blood, and then when he was, you know, drunk and hit a car.

You go through. In the book, you know, you talk about the. You know, your mom, she's. Well, I mean, she's got to kind of carry on with her life, right? I mean, she starts dating other guys. Eventually she gets married to who ends up being your stepdad. How old were you when that happened?

I think five.

And what did he do for work?

He drove roller for the paving company.

Got it. Sounds like he was a bit of a boozer, too.

Yeah. Yep. Definitely. Definitely had drinking issues. And then, you know, he wasn't my dad, so I hated him. I don't think he liked me. Definitely didn't seem like it. So, yeah, it's. You know, whatever it happens.

That's just the way it seems to go, doesn't it, sometimes with the stepdads?

Yeah, that. But it's a hard. It's a tough job for them. Yeah, they're coming in. They're the. The woman better be pretty hot if they're gonna have to deal with these freaking kids. That's all I know.

And there's two of you. Is there two of you?

Yeah. Yeah.

So it's you and your brother, right?

Yeah, my younger brother. He's a couple years younger, so, yeah, it's my mom. My mom came with some baggage.

Yeah. Instant fan. We used to say in the SEAL teams, like, when a guy would meet up with some girl or start, like, seriously dating a girl and maybe even get married to a girl that had a couple. It's like instant family.

Yeah.

You know, you don't get any. Like a normal, normal getting married. You have, like, the honeymoon period or whatever. Two, three years. Just you and this girl. No, you got instant family.

I know.

What are you doing on Saturday, you're freaking doing yard work and, like, there's no honeymoon period.

No, I know it's rough.

Rolling straight into it.

Yeah.

And then you got young Cam who hates you.

And, you know, I have. Since my dad wasn't around, I just had this vision of my dad. And from what I heard in the scrapbooks. And so then this guy who comes in.

Who the fuck are you? What have you done? Drive roller. You know, so it's a tough hand. It's like it's no win for sure for him.

You got some crazy stories in here. I had to pull this one out, though. I don't even know why this wood kind of struck me because it seems like this kind of shit happens to. To everyone in some way, shape or form. You got this going on. When I was in third and fourth grades, my mom worked with and became friends with this lady at the phone company. I remember her being very pretty and nice. They went out on weekends, leaving Pete and me with the woman's teenage sons to babysit. My stepdad had a Harley and so did the husband of my mom's friend. So they would go out on road trips or maybe just out for the night. While it was a long time ago, I don't remember all the details. There are a few things I do remember that might always haunt me. The teenage brothers weren't the greatest babysitters. They used drugs and made me and my brother fight in front of their friends. They'd yell and scream and treat it like entertainment, coaching us on how to hit each other hard whenever there was blood. The boys yelled louder and it got even more fired up. Pete and I didn't like it, but I don't remember having a choice. Or maybe it was a way for us young boys to try and earn approval from the older boys. The brothers watched us at our house as we had a pool table. And they got. Then they and their friends had something to do as they acted crazy and got drunk and high during those stressful nights. They made me smoke pot so I couldn't tell on them. How old were you?

Third grade.

Damn. We'd do whatever they said. So I smoked pot. And then they put shaving cream in my mouth as they said it'd mask the scent of pot. The younger brother did most of the communicating with us and said if we told on them, they would tell my mom that I smoked pot, too. If I hadn't already learned that life wasn't always going to be fun and loving, I did. Then my young eyes were open to the fact that there were people in this world that you could never trust and that would hurt you for entertainment, that's freaking crazy. And you go on to say that one brother, one of these two brothers, ended up dead of a heroin overdose, and the other one tripped out on some kind of drugs and killed one of his friends.

Yeah, he took mushrooms that not long after, I mean, during that whole time. And thought his friend was the devil, I think is what it was, and ended up killing him when he was 15.

Damn. So this is a. This is a rough scenario you're. You're living in right now. And how often are you getting to go to your dad's?

My dad was, you know, he's having issues of his own with drinking and, you know, he'd have girlfriends and I think he worked at a. He was a bartender at the Black Forest. It's a tavern there off of Willamette and Eugene. And so, yeah, he, you know, he's young too. Shit. You know, you're 20 some years old. You don't want to have to take care of some kid.

So. So it's pretty much mostly most of the times at this point is spent with your mom.

Yeah.

You go through more stuff about that. I'm gonna fast forward a little bit to middle school. Middle school, you're. You're trying to. Trying to make things happen. Even in middle school. You got a paper route. You're doing strawberry pick.

Yeah.

You got. You put this quote in here. You said, during this period of my life, with all the time to be in my own head. And that's when you're out taking strawberries or you're out delivering papers. One constant thought came to my mind. This sucks.

That's pretty heavy for a freaking middle school kid.

Yeah. I remember because at that time, the. The local paper was every day, so I'd have to get up at four and in, you know, Oregon, especially Willamette Valley there. I mean, it rains a lot, especially in the winter. Darkest shit, four in the morning, I'm out there loading up my little canvas bag. You put papers on the front and back. It's kind of strung over your shoulders. And then I'd just ride my bike to the houses and deliver. But I'd have to get that all loaded up at the paper box. They'd come and drop the papers off, like at 2 in the morning. I'd go out there at 4 and get all that, and it's pouring down rain, and I'm just like.

Sucked. I mean, it was. It, you know, I know lots of people have paper routes, but yeah, given everything else then at that time I had moved in with my dad because I hated my stepdad so much. So I was. And I, I didn't miss anybody but my brother. Basically we'd kind of been in it together and so I'd lived with my dad my, my step or I mean my brother would stay with my mom because he didn't really know my dad that well because he's so young and.

Yeah. So it was like given everything else and then that situation. Yeah, I felt like a lot.

Fast forward a little bit more you say. Since my dad was some legendary track guy, I decided to attempt to follow in his footsteps. During one particular track meet, I was excited to see my stepmom Candy come and watch me, knowing that she was going to tell my dad how I did. He wasn't there himself, but his spirit loomed large like it always did. It was really hard to get his attention in athletics since he was gone. Traveling around with junior national teams, you couldn't do regular shit and be celebrated. I knew I had to make my mark, so I decided I would do it in the 800 meter race. At that meet. When the gun went off, I took off as if it was a 200 meter dash. I ran like Steve Prefontaine, going out as hard, going out hard and refusing to let go of the lead. For a short while, a very short while, I raced at the front, but by the end of the first lap I was dying. I still remember the guy who won the race, Greg Suter. He was a natural track guy who won all the time. He looked like a runner, tall and lean. I was the short legged kid gasping at the end of the race and finishing last. I was thankful my dad hadn't accompanied my stepmom to the meet. This was my normal. I just didn't have it. That's what I grew up with. Life has always been a grind.

Coming out of the gate, hard.

8, 800 meters. I heard somebody talking about 800 meters and they were saying like there's people that run, you know, everything from a 5K to a marathon. Like that's all, that's all, what's the word? Sort of fun stuff that people do. But there's no one that goes out and like, hey, hey you guys, we're running an 800 this weekend because it sucks so horribly.

Yeah, it's the half mile, basically a sprint. It's tough, especially when you're not, you know, I just, was just a kid, middle school Kid wasn't born to do it.

So Is this like 6th, 7th grade? What grade is this?

I think that was probably, I'd say seventh or eighth. Yeah.

And you got your ass beat. And once you want. Did you feel like, you know, I mean, this is the kind of thing that's the kind of thing that sends kids like just off in the other direction. Did you feel any of that? Did you keep doing track?

No. Cause then my dad moved to Portland. So I moved up there, which is a much bigger city than Eugene. And then I didn't even get a chance to compete at anything. Because if I wasn't good at a smaller school, I'm not getting anything. So I remember up there, you were.

A small fish in a small pond. When you got to the big pond, you were like a minnow.

Oh my God. It was not even. I was. I might as well. I didn't exist as far as the school goes. I mean, it's just like nobody knew me. I never made one friend. I mean, it was. I remember laughing. I know.

Maybe a little bit.

It's. It, it's just I'd be laughing too. It's like, I remember I had zits all on my chin, you know, I'm like, God. So I did mow lawns. I took. My dad lived in a pretty good area. He opened this record store in downtown Portland. Like collectible records, that's what he loved to do. And so I would be out in Beaverton, which is out of Portland, and I would go and mow yards and get, get some money that way. Nobody's giving me money. And yeah, I mean, my brother would come up. I remember one time he came up to visit and he didn't, didn't like going up there, but we played one on one football. I was better than him because I was two years older. So it was like, that was my. That was glory to me. That was glory. Like reliving the one on one football match with your little brother.

You do end up doing your first hunt with your stepdad. What was it? What was that all about?

That was. They, you know, he grew up in a real small town in eastern Oregon, Echo, Oregon. And so they would do this big deer camp. So it's a tradition every year that have a deer camp where they'd have a wood stove and, and a big, you know, outfitter's tent. They'd play cards and drink and, you know, that was, that was rifle deer hunting. So like I say in the book, you know, I got handed to my stepdad for even taking us over there because I guarantee his brothers, which were just. They're all badasses, pretty intimidating. Like ranch guys, you know, big ranch. They had a big ranch outside of Echo, Oregon. And then we got these kids, you know, Greg's stepsons, they're probably like, what, what is this? You know how guys are. They don't want kids around, right? And so I did. Me and my brother were out and I saw these deer coming up the hill and thought I saw a spike horn on one of them, which made it legal. So it was because it was a bock, had to be a buck, and I shot it.

My.

My brother said, you shot a doe? I'm like, no, I didn't. I didn't know for sure. I was like, pretty sure. I. But I wasn't 100 sure. After he said that, I was like, oh my God. So how, you know what's the biggest screw up you could do is shoot some illegal animal, right? So anyway, it turns out it was legal and I got it and that was my first deer and I was 15.

And did you get like the, the rush? Did you, did you enjoy that?

I don't remember that part. I just remember maybe I finally did something good like, like get approval from. From the man. So.

Now, despite everything, and like I said, I. Skipping through a bunch of the book, there's more detail in here, but you eventually say this. It's easy to use your childhood as a crutch instead of seeing it as a chisel. There are a lot of divorces out there, so that means a lot of kids come from broken homes. I always hear people say my family is so dysfunctional, using it as an excuse or something, but is not really a valid excuse because everybody's family is dysfunctional in some way. There are so many crutches people want to use to justify themselves. But for me, you have to eliminate every single one of them. Get rid of them all, then tell yourself it's up to you. What are you going to do now that you let go of all those crutches? I could blame alcoholism on a shitty childhood, but I don't. Blaming others is an easy way out.

Solid advice.

Yeah.

You got to take ownership of what's going on in your world stream. Ownership. That's a good call. It's a good idea. Yeah, that's. You know, I was just talking to some people this past past week and I was saying, isn't it crazy? I said, I wrote this book, sold a lot of this book, and what we wrote about in this book is, hey, you should take responsibility for your actions. That's the main underlying premise. And isn't it shocking that people almost treat that like a novel idea?

Yeah, but wait, let me jot this down. Say that again.

And the thing that I was also explaining, this group of people said, it's really heavy when you start to look at your. You know, you look at your life, you look at your health, you look at your business, you look at your family, you look at your relationships, and you look at all those things that are messed up in all those areas. And when you say all those things, all those problems in my business, my life, my health, all those things are my fault, that's really a heavy weight to bear. But it's also extremely liberating because if it's all your fault, you're the one that can fix it. You're the one that can get your business back together. You can repair the relationships, you can get yourself healthy. Like, you can take control of all those things. And that's the exact same thing you're saying here. When you're just blaming your childhood or your parents or your alcohol, the alcoholism, all these other things, then you just become a victim to those things. And that's not what can you change. You're just a victim. You're just. It's happening to you, and you need to go make things happen yourself, not let them happen to you. Definitely one of the underlying themes in this book you put out.

Fast forward a little bit to high school, which you started getting into as a freshman entering a new high school, I had no confidence in zero success to point to or build momentum off of. Life got worse after I decided to live with my dad when he moved to Portland. Suddenly I found myself in this big school I didn't want to attend, where I didn't know anybody. I struggled in my classes. I earned mostly Ds. As a freshman, I ate like shit and wasn't active. So I started gaining weight. And to make matters worse, acne became an issue.

Basically, you're a teenager, too, in a way. It's just going to happen.

Yeah, but there was like, some studs. Like, I'd see this, I'd see the studs, and, like, they didn't seem like they had zits and they didn't seem overweight or in looking down at the floor as they walked by everybody. So wasn't everybody.

That's. That's a rough one.

Yeah.

You said this, though. Fast forward a little bit. Soon I realized things had to change. That the situation in Portland was dire. Feeling alone and isolated caused me not to give any effort to school or make friends. My grades were all Ds. I was overweight and insecure. So I moved back with my mom for my sophomore, junior and senior years. I knew it hurt my dad, but I was miserable and felt desperate. I then attended Mohawk High School in. What is it? Marcola? Yep, in Marcola. It was a small school in a small town. Marcola was a logging community with a lot of guys working out in the woods. I loved growing up in a small town. But like many others, from humbling humble beginnings, I carried low expectations and no dreams. I wasn't looking down the road. The change of schools didn't help me because even though I never did my homework and I wasn't considered smart, I also wasn't dumb. I began to get good grades. I ended up getting straight A's when I was a senior. That's a freaking dramatic change.

I got so lucky because I joined the military and just got like, put on a path. This is what you got to do.

Yeah. Now that structure is important.

Freaking so good. Now you. You end up playing football. And do you think that impacted sort of. You start playing football, you start having some structure and discipline around that. Does that help your grades? Are you wanting to get good grades just to play football or anything? Like.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I just had a little. I felt smaller school. Maybe it's back in the small pond again. So I felt a more confidence and then playing, you know, building a bond with people like the other guys on the team. And on our. My road, we lived on Windling Road, so there's a bunch of good athletes that live there. So we'd get together and play basketball or football and so just that, just competing. I think. I think competition is what. Is what life. I mean, that's kind of a mistake I felt for a long time I made with raising my own kids is. I learned right there that life is competition. And competition is what made me like, hey, I got. I have to go one on one with. We used to do these drills like football. One on one. You try to get over this line, they try to get over this line. And it's just whoever, can you stop him or he can. Can he stop you? So I realized those, those battles, that's what makes especially a man, is like, we gotta compete. That's what we're here for. So when I. I kind of skipped ahead. But with my kids, I like, no, you guys, life is gonna break you if you're not built for this shit. So then I thought, well, maybe did I push them too hard to compete? So it's like, you know how life is. You're like one all one way or all the other. But anyway, I was learning how to compete there and. And it gave me confidence and at.

You start running then too. And, and you had a buddy, Donnie. Manila.

Is it Manila? Yeah, Manila.

And you guys are sort of, sort of both sort of best friends scenario. And he's. He's a quarterback.

Yep.

And you're his wide receiver.

Yep.

So you guys are bros out freaking.

Oh yeah.

Practicing and trying to get in shape and getting after it. Yeah.

You talk about the fact that you're. You kind of had to be self sufficient. I mean, this whole time, which is definitely good.

Yeah, yeah. It was tough at that time, but it's good for any, any person. Eventually you're gonna have to, you know, take care of yourself.

Yeah. You know, going back to that competition thing. I know in the seal teams we always joke around like if you're with another seal, whatever you're doing is a race. Whether we're. Sometimes it can get pretty stupid because sure, it's cool when you're running or it's cool when you're shooting, but then it's like, hey, we're gonna go drink.

Yeah, let's see.

Let's see who can do better, you know?

Yeah. Not as great to win that one.

Yeah, not. Not a great one.

You also end up going to your grandma's house, which seems like I'm like, oh, that's, that's quaint. But it's a 20 mile bike ride you gotta do. So it's a 40 mile round trip. And what are you doing up there?

She lived in town, so she lived by Hayward Field. I lived in the outskirts on this, in that small town. So I would ride there on this old two lane road all the way into town. And then I would hang out, watch mtv, go up to Eldon's Market. She had a tab up there. So I'd go buy stuff, go down to Amazon pool, just kind of play basketball, hang out. But that was like my could get away from my stepdad. My dad could swing by because it was his mom. So I could see my dad, maybe he still lived in town, but I don't know what he's doing. And so it's kind of a, you know, she'd give me. Make saltine crackers with butter on them. Pretty good life.

Living the dream. And Then what? Your other. Your other. I guess maybe your mom's side had a ranch.

They had a ranch in eastern Oregon. Yeah.

And you went out, worked on that?

Yeah, Yeah, I did. My grandpa was a horse trainer and super tough. He's, you know, he left home. I think he lied to get in the service when he was 15 or 16 and one, you know, was in the military. Just tough, tough dude. And he got into horses. He did rodeo when he got out of the service and then started training and breeding horses. So I'd go over there and work, and he had. He was tough, tough guy.

Did you ever do rodeo?

No.

When I. When I watch that, like, I don't like to get injured. Right. You know, I mean, none of us like to get injured. When you get injured, you know, you feel like it's horrible, and you feel like the whole world's falling apart. And I feel like the biggest wimp when I get injured because I'm always like, okay, you're. I, My. I've jammed my finger and I. My grips now you feel like, just like. And then, you know, guys that, you know, have lost legs and they're driving on. But, man, when I watch rodeo, people, how. How are they not getting majorly injured every freaking time?

They're durable.

Damn. Yeah, that. And I watch. Ever watch rugby?

Yeah, those guys are tough, too.

I went and watched a rugby game, like, a year ago, and same thing. Every play I was shuddering and, you know, so, you know, a lot of times you get that feel when you watch a sport. You're like, I could do that. You know, you're like, oh, yeah, I'll do that. If I trained hard, I could get in there, you know, But I was watching this rugby game going, I actually don't want to do that. I actually do not want to do that. These guys are impact every single time. So you're out there and this is like typical ranch stuff where you're learning the, like, extra hard work is getting after it.

Yeah, yeah. Just get up early, get all the horses fed and watered. I would. Because he had racehorses, so he bred quarter horses. And I would. I would go and warm them up before the races. So it's called a jockey boy. And so I'd get on there. And to do that, I had to know horses. The horse can tell whether, you know, the person on them knows what the fuck they're doing. Especially horses that are all wound up for the races. It's a. It's pretty. That was pretty intense. But I like doing it.

How Long did it take you to get comfortable on the horses? Was that, like, your introduction to it that. That summer?

No, I'd. I would ride every time I went there.

Okay.

Yeah.

So you kind of grew up doing it.

Yeah. And then when I worked for him, he. I'm trying to think. I think he paid me. Seems like it was a hundred and for some reason, 76amonth. But then I had to pay for all my own stuff, so.

Like, food and water and.

Yeah. And like, I remember he took me to. To buy clothes, like jeans and a. And a cowboy hat and things like this, and that came out of the 176. I thought he was hooking me up.

But no, Grandpa Bob's got a different way of hooking.

No, no, he was. Yeah.

So you learn a lot from him. And I'm gonna fast forward a little bit. You say I learned something else from Grandpa Bob. I was taught that tomorrow is not guaranteed. My mom's mother drove her car over from their ranch in eastern Oregon to visit. To visit and go to my homecoming football game on Friday. Late Thursday night, the sheriff's department called and told us that Papa had died in an automobile accident. It was very painful to hear this, since Grandpa Bob was a huge part of my teenage years. The following night, the homecoming game was tough to get through, but I had a good game and made some difficult catches. Papa taught me to give everything you had each day, and the only thing that mattered was winning. When a horse wins, the trainer, the jockey, and the family get to take a photo in the winner's circle. Anything less than that is a failure.

Check.

And that was. Was that your senior year, then?

That was junior.

Junior year.

Junior year, yeah.

Fast forward a little bit. You graduated earlier. You graduated when you were 17 years old.

And then you get a job at Safeway.

Yeah, I kind of forgot this part of the book, but it was weird. My family moved when I was 17, so they were gonna go to Arizona, and I just said, I'm not going to Arizona. And so I stayed and they moved. They only stayed there two weeks, but they moved back, but I never moved back home.

What'd you get, like a place to stay with your buddies or something?

No, I was. Stayed with my girlfriend, so she was a senior, too, so we're. It's kind of. Kind of sounds odd. I mean, right now, if I imagine my daughter, like, us moving. My daughter's a senior. I couldn't imagine. Just, hey, good luck. Keep in touch.

Yeah. And by the way, move in with some other high School senior.

I know. Anyway, so I stayed. They moved back. I never moved back in. And then I ended up getting a job at Safeway because I wanted to wait. My Manila, Manila, he was a year behind me. So I learned I needed. We were gonna go to try to play college football together. So I worked for a year in between waiting and.

And then you end up getting to Southern Oregon State and you try out for the football team.

You say, after I try. After trying to make the team, I red shirted for Southern Oregon State, meaning every day I practiced against the starting defense. There were definitely some beasts out there on the field. I definitely wasn't one of them. It was fun, especially since there were some elite athletes on the field who eventually made it to the NFL. The irony of college was that throughout my high school years, I never drank even one beer. All I cared about was sports and grades. I knew I wasn't an elite athlete, but I still tried my hardest, especially because I wanted to impress my dad. What I learned at Southern Oregon was that even though I wasn't good enough to play college football, I knew how to party. I drank a lot of beer and eventually went back to Eugene with this new mastered skill.

So. So you didn't drink at all growing up?

No.

And then you get to college and just like the stereotypical freaking. You could just go get it.

Yeah. I mean, you know how if you're on the football team you can go to any party? You know, always girls, always. You know, we had this dorm that was Aspen hall was just football players. So there's always girls there. There's like a. Like a big open shower and there'd be guys and girls in the shower at the same as. Like, I'm like this. Not. I don't know what heaven is like, but feels like it should be like this. So anyway, it was. It was a lot different.

One of my buddies in the SEAL teams played football at University of Texas. And obviously it's like a religion down there. And I was like, hey, what was it like, you know, being on the football team down there? And he goes like a jolly green giant walking the earth. He said you. He said he literally could do anything he wanted to. Yeah, you know, you. No one. He never bought a beer. You know, it was like the seas parted. When he showed up, he said it was freaking ridiculous. Ridiculous. So how long did you stay there for?

Just a year.

So one year?

Yeah, one year. But yeah, I mean, so it wasn't like Texas, but for that little. That was Ashland, Oregon, for that Little town.

Yeah.

It's kind of a big deal if you were there.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's fun.

And what made you stop, what made you decide to not go to college anymore?

I just didn't have money, so nobody's paying. I had financial aid and I was getting money and so it was about 5,000 a year living down there and, and I was a walk on. So I didn't get any scholarship or anything like that. So I just didn't have money. Yeah.

Did you have any vision?

No.

Yeah, because I think a lot of kids just go to college because that's like you're supposed to. What. You're. What it is.

Yeah, it's just like that's, that's like the normal chain of command is you, you, you got to get your college degree, you know, so we tell, I tell, told my kids. Tanner who's in the service, he, he tried, that's my oldest one, but I, I went through first and you know, told him, no, you're going to go to school, you're going to get a degree. And I could tell shit's not happening. So. But anyway, I fell into that trap too.

Yeah.

Now you go to go to college.

Yeah. Especially you go there for a year and you're like, what am I even doing here? Yeah, you know, like getting drunk, whatever, spending money. Why. Why am I even here?

Yeah, I got decent grades. I mean I, I would took creative writing, so it was like I always liked writing, so at least I did that.

Yeah. That's an interesting thread that's throughout the book is you're. And obviously this book is sort of the apex of that journey. But yeah. The fact that you were always kind of into writing.

So you get, you leave college, go back, going back home and now you're working, you're working in a warehouse for $4.72 an hour, according to the book.

That's right. I was working part time going to, going to Lane Community College. And you know, my, my truck, little Toyota two wheel drive was just full of beer cans all the time because we just go up in the woods and build a fire at the rock pit and drink and.

I mean I would go scout deer. I always like taking pictures. So I'd go look for bucks and bulls and try to take pictures of them in the mornings. But then I would, you know, drink for the weekends and the afternoons.

Yeah. You saying here it wasn't like I was letting anybody down. No. Nobody expected anything from Cameron Haynes, so I didn't expect anything out of myself.

No.

Fast forward a little bit. Thankfully, Roy kept on me and kept encouraging, encouraging me to bow hunt, telling me it's way better than hunting with a gun, that there were less people and that I would enjoy it. Roy got me started, but the only way I could build confidence in anything was to go out and do it. Soon I focused my energy on bow hunting. Like athletics, it provided a challenge. I found the perfect thing to work hard at something that challenged me that not everybody was good at. When I was successful at bow hunting, it gave me a lot of confidence. For a young man, having confidence and getting positive reinforcement in anything was a powerful spark for change in my life. Here's the truth. I'm an average guy who has experienced above average bow hunting success over the past three decades. One thing is for sure, if I can do it, anyone can. I came from nothing and had no one pushing me or even believing in me. For this reason. My story proves that in bow hunting, the most average person can achieve the grandest of dreams.

Footnote. There's a lot of a hell of a lot of hard work in between average person and dreams on that one. So how did you know Roy? Roy Roth.

He went to Mohawk. He was a year ahead of me, so he was. And then his wife was in my class. She was like the brain of the, of the class. I think she could have got valid valedictorian maybe. So that was Jill. But yeah, so we, but we didn't hang out because he, I just did the, the football, basketball, baseball. He had a trap line and would always be in the woods trapping. He did play football. He's good at football and baseball, but no basketball. But we didn't really hang out or anything. But he, he was always the guy. If I had a hunting question, I'd be like, well, I'm just ask Roy. He's like the best in the school. And so he. From there we kind of built a relationship. When I was still rifle hunting. Then he inspired me to buy a bow and get going down that road.

You say. I run into a lot of people who are new to bow hunting. They get a bow, go on a hunt and they discover it's just too difficult, so they quit. I understand. I missed 16 deer the first year I went bow hunting. So I've been there. What if I had given up after the first year? There's the question once again. What if here's the reason why Bow hunting is both exciting and excruciating. It's difficult and frustrating as hell, especially when you're used to hunting with a rifle, People become used to the ritual of seeing an animal in rifle range. And then, boom, it's over, it's done, you've made the shot, the animal is dead. With a bow, being in bow range doesn't mean anything even if the animal is in rifle range. When you're bow hunting, the hunt has just started. Moving from rifle range into bow range means you're moving into the animal's red zone. And that ups the challenge immensely. In bow hunting, there's no guarantee it's going to work out for me. I never like to fail. I didn't want to be a failure with the bow. So after the that first year of killing the spike bull elk, my second season behind the bow, I killed a Pope and Young 3x3 Blacktail, a Raghorn 5x5 Bull, and a Bear. With a 200 bull bow and using $30 binoculars, I can only afford to hunt in Oregon. Instead of traveling anywhere out of the state, I bought three tags and filled three tags. The second year of bow hunting wasn't just memorable for me. It was monumental.

So you came out of the gate going hard.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that was. I finally found because as you, you know, we've kind of went through this journey. I wasn't good, really. Not like a natural at anything. It's all work. And then I got to bow hunting and I'm like, well, I can work hard and then have these, what I considered a very, you know, pretty high above average, maybe excellent results. And I didn't know anybody killing a bull bucking bear with their bow that was like, there's like a. We'd lump those all together in one word. Bull, buck, bear. And if you could get that done.

With your bow, that's freaking badass.

Yeah. It wasn't happening, so I felt really good. That was just my second season, so it gave me a lot of confidence.

How many arrows were you shooting in the offseason? Getting ready for that. Were you. Were you kind of obsessed out of the gate?

Yeah, yeah, I shot way more then than I do now. Yeah. I mean, I just shot for hours.

Yeah.

Loved it.

How'd you get the feel for, like, the hunt part? The wind. Was Roy teaching you that stuff?

No, that was just, you know, rifle hunting. You don't really need to know that. But I was in the woods a lot, you know, whether I was hunting or going with somebody. So I was learning. You kind of hunting is all about. Well, not all about. There's a lot of different things that you got to read the country, you got to read the animal. The animal behavior is a big part of it, and learning their tendencies and then what you can get away with when they see you. And so I would, as I said, you know, I would go out and take pictures a lot too. So I was out trying to get photos and then hunting all the time, so I just was naturally just learning more. All these reps all this time in the. In the mounds. So then when it came time for to actually try to kill something, I had a big advantage because I had just been out there. The time spent, you know, and it just. It felt pretty natural. But I still had to learn about the wind, had to learn about when an arrow hits an animal. And you're reading the blood trail, where that blood's from, the injury you've caused the animal. You know how to trail that thing. Whether it's hoof marks in soft soil or rocks overturned, different things. Ferns would be kind of indicate the direction of travel. So you had still had to look. A lot of woodsmanship goes into successful bow hunting, so I had to learn that. That just takes time.

Were you going with anybody or were you primarily like that first year where you got the bull, buck and bear? Was anyone going with you?

My brother went sometimes. I think when I killed that buck, he was there, too.

And then the bull. Let me think. No, the bull. I was by myself. Bear by myself. Yeah.

Yeah. I guess the reason I'm kind of pausing here is, like I said, me being an amateur hunter and having been guided on hunts by experts or sometimes even multiple sometimes, I. I've gone out with both John Dudley and a guide with me at the same time. So there's like two people that are experts. Right. And the amount of information that they're feeding me, the amount. The amount of things that are going on during a hunt is. There's so much going on.

Yeah.

I mean, the reactions, the animals, the wind, the terrain, like all those things are going on. I've had. I've. When I've hunted, I've had people, you know, feeding me that information, you know, and for you to be out there on your second season pulling that off, that's freaking impressive, man. And I don't want. And the other reason why I'm kind of like diving into this is because I said, oh, how many arrows did you shoot?

And shooting the arrows. Yeah, you got to be able to shoot the arrows. But there's so much more to it.

Yeah.

That I didn't want to make it sound like, oh, hey, if I shoot a bunch of arrows and I can hit that target at freaking 60 yards, I'm going to be good to go.

I think hunting, it's like when you're driving somewhere and if you're not driving, not really paying attention, you know what I mean? I feel like hunting can be like that too. If you're not making the calls, you can have people telling you just like you can have somebody drive you down here if somebody's driving. I like, if I had to repeat how I got to right here to the studio today, I took an Uber. So I don't know.

But when you're hunting, when you're making the calls that it might be a rough go, you might fail a lot, but you're also learning more than. I think you have some great mentors on the hunt. But I think it's hard, that's a hard situation to learn that first hand experience also because you're kind of, you're doing what they say. Yep. You know what I mean? So for me it was hard, but it was a big advantage to learn that on my own, make those mistakes on my own. And it just, I think being by myself so much as a kid, I was fine being by myself. I liked, I was used to being alone my whole life really. So just being out in the woods, that was an easy transition. Now I'm by myself, but I'm doing something I'm not by myself.

You know, staring at the wall, eating Cheetos.

Yeah. That's again, just to reiterate the, the amount that goes into pulling this off is, is ridiculously hard. These, this is a freaking challenging, challenging thing to do. So I just don't want to, don't want to short sell it at all.

Yeah, it's, I mean, there's still hunts now, even after all these years where I'm like.

I wonder, I'm like, how have I ever killed anything with an arrow? I mean, it just seems, it feels impossible on some of these hunts because it's not just getting close.

Yeah.

I mean, that's, you find the animal, that's okay. Well, now we're, now we've started something. At least we got a target, right? But then so much has to go, right? And then if you're trying to film as, you know, I think you, you know, some of yours has been filmed and other guys are there. So it's like there's however much, you know, three guys, that's three times the noise, three times the scent, three times the movement. It's tough There's a lot of shit that can go sideways. Yeah. And it does. And so again, what I was. My point was sometimes I wonder myself. I'm like, I don't know how I've ever done this. It feels. Feels like it's just not going to happen.

Well, you've made it happen a lot.

Get into your third season, you say. I was invaded by. Invited by Wayne Endicott to join him in the country he had hunted since he was a young boy. Wayne owned the bow rack. And I only say it like that because it's kind of like legendary. Even though I've never even been there.

Yeah.

The archery pro shop in Springfield, Oregon opened in 1971. Wayne Roy Roth, Dwayne Levitt. Right. Jeff Brooks and I ventured toward the legendary Steens mountain. And.

There you say this. My shot was perfect. A 35 year, a 35 yard quartering away shot. The arrow went into the last rib and stopped at the far side of the shoulder, meaning I only had one hole, the entrance from which to leave blood. I was using Thunderhead 125s, which are good tough heads. The that did the job. That one perfect arrow put the bull down quickly, even though I had scant blood trail to follow. The Roosevelt bull was a big bodied beast though, and his heavy hoofs scarred the soft soil deeply. I followed his fresh deep cutting tracks for 50 yards down the hill before pulling back a wet fur bow, revealing the fallen beast in a tangle of fireweed. This dark antlered 5x5 was my best bull to date. I remember every detail of these hunts like they were yesterday. Hence the saying, the beast is dead. Long live the mighty beast. Bow hunting had gotten in my soul at that time. I had no idea how it would end up directing my every step through the journey of life.

Check.

Despite my growth and success in bow hunting, I was still going nowhere in my life. I was 22 to 23 years old. That's such a good contrast. Like you're kicking ass out in the woods. And yet. 22 to 23 years old, living with four guys, drank beer all the time. One of my roommates got two DUIs in three weeks, both while driving my truck. I was glad I hadn't. I wasn't driving those times. It was just a matter of luck. More a matter of luck than good decision making. I just never got caught. I wasn't living healthily and still didn't have a real sense of purpose. I wasn't accountable for anything or anybody. I felt shitty all the time. A Wake up call arrived when I crashed my truck one night while driving drunk. I was driving too fast and flipped the vehicle, rolling it. The roof was crushed all the way down to the top of the seat. The truck was totaled. Of course. I didn't remember a thing. Damn. Just straight blackout driving. I could have easily died or killed someone. Did I wake up? No, not yet. Did I see some connection between me walking away from the crash and my dad walking away from his? Was I following in his alcoholic footsteps? My life had become a living. Living with a bunch of guys, just partying, basically. Working during the week, going to clubs on the weekends, just drinking at the apartment or on the lake. It was a great life.

Yeah. I would. Usually on the weekends, I would get up and go. We lived on the second floor of the Chase Village apartments. And I'd go out and look and see if my truck was there. And I. I was. I had driven my truck and I'd have to go see. So if the truck was in there, I'd go back in and I'd be like, where's my truck? Oh, don't you remember? You left to the Scandia days or whatever the hell it's like. No.

Damn.

So it was just, you know, just being an idiot.

Yeah.

You say. The same year I killed my first bill, in 1989, I wrote my first hunting article, Bulls, Bugles and botches for Western Bow Hunter. So you get into writing pretty quickly out of the gate with this. It's cool. In the book, you got a bunch of the articles clipped out.

So you're on this kind of. Well, I'll use your word. Loser path. Yeah, I use. Normally I wouldn't say that, but you got it. In the book, you say being a loser isn't cool, but you know what's worse than that? Being a loser dad. When Tanner, our first son, was born in 1993, something inside of me switched. They say parenthood changes everything, and it did for me. Suddenly, I wasn't just on my own now. I was affecting other people's lives. I got to be an example.

Alcohol was poison. I had seen what alcohol did to my dad, ruining what he could have been, something incredible. And I was seeing it do the same thing to me. So I stopped drinking. Alcohol wasn't going to help me in any area of my life, especially with my hunting. I'm not judging anybody else, but for me, I had to quit drinking.

So Tanner coming along is really the. Seems like from the book, it's the catalyst for real change in your life.

Yeah. I mean, and you know, people always say, and maybe it's true for them, but they say, well, you know.

I don't know, there's this thing like if your father's an alcoholic, then you have a greater chance being an alcoholic. And like this keeps this, this whole thing going, right? And then people learn from it, this and that, and it all sounds good. I didn't really. I knew all that. I didn't really care. Even when Tanner was born, I felt different. And I was like, okay, this isn't just me being a 20 some year old guy just going to the clubs. That's what feels like everybody does. But then with the kid. But then still I didn't. I was like, well, I probably shouldn't be a dipshit like this, but I still was. I still, I'd not drink for a little while, then I'd, you know, whatever, go back out.

You know, Tanner was around, so my wife, we were just in our 20s, you know, mid-20s, and I wasn't, I was still doing stupid.

And then.

So it wasn't just like right when he was born, it still took a while, right? And I still was still up.

You.

Know, I mean, I would still drink and drive. I remember leaving the Oregon football game, I'd driving over all the cones and this cop jumped out, told me to pull over. And I was just, why am I driving over the cones? I don't know. It's halftime. Been drinking for the, for the whole game. And I had to do a walking test, like a DUI test there with everybody leaving the Oregon football game, you know, and somehow I passed. I have no idea how, but I never got a dui. But the point is, it's like it still took a little bit. It wasn't just a light switch. I still, you know, I hadn't run. Run a marathon yet, so I hadn't really tapped into like, dedication. I was having success with the bow. I was having a little thing. I still didn't have a great job.

What was your job at this time? Were you still.

I was still in that warehouse. So I worked at that warehouse. I was part time. Then I quit school and I got full time. And guys would kind of listen to me, so they made me a lead. And I worked there for nine years. And then by kind of by the end of that nine years, I was.

Starting to figure things out a little bit and I got this job, same job I have right now at Springfield Utility Board. And it was like, you know, like, we're here in San Diego. San Diego Water and power, whatever it's called, that's always a good, good job. And for me, for somebody like me, a job at a municipal utility, it's about as good as it's going to get.

Right.

It's, you know, people are always going to need water and power. I'm going to have a paycheck, good benefits.

It's like, okay, this is like kind of total stability.

Yeah, yeah. And I could provide for my family. I still felt like a kid, but I'm like, God, I'm supposed to have all these, you know, these, pay all these bills and have cars and have this house and do all this. But I didn't feel like.

I don't know, it just felt still like a lot for me. So I ended up getting the job on the construction crew at the Springfield Utility Board. And yeah, so I started there at like $7 an hour. I'd moved up at the warehouse. They promoted me to supervisor the same day I gave my notice and quit because I got hired at the utility. But so I was making like 13 there and then I had to go back down to seven to start at the, at the utility board. But yeah, so just trying to get it figured out.

Yeah.

Back to the hunting a little bit. You say in the book. It's been said that life offers two paths. One easy and one hard. As Roy and I entered the unforgiving sanctuary of the Eagle Cap Wilderness for the first time and witnessed the on spot Wallowa. How do you say that?

Wallowa.

Wallowa Mountains in northeastern Oregon. It was obvious that we had chosen the latter. We were always drawn toward the more difficult path. To us, harder was always better.

Talking about Roy a little bit here. Bow hunting in general is hard. There are lots of tough men who do it, but it's not easy. The mountains can break even the toughest man. Roy Roth is the toughest human I ever met and ever seen out in the mountains. Hands down, Roy was the toughest bow hunter I'd ever seen. And he always carried the best attitude. I learned so much from him. He is a big part of the reason I am the person I am today. As a kid I always knew Roy was good in the woods. We would, he could always get the to the best fishing holes before the rest of us. We nicked. Nicknamed him Gazelle Roy because he was big but moved like a gazelle. He, he was a great athlete. He played football and he was really good at baseball playing third baseman. From the moment Roy told me I should start bow hunting, we connected and hit it off. From then on, we started hunting together, and we just clicked because we had no limits on how much misery we could suffer to chase success.

So you guys roll out into this. This mountain wilderness area and. And you. You encounter another hunter who tells you guys about this spot where Billy Cruz used to go. What's. What's the legend of Billy Cruz?

Billy Cruz was just a badass. Started Oregon Bow Company, which was the bow I shot at that time in Junction City back there in. In Oregon. And so I actually didn't know Billy Cruz. I knew of him and seen his pictures. Well, this dentist that was in the wilderness, he's like. I said, you know, we've just. We've came from this trailhead way back here, something like 20 miles away. I said, we just want to get away from people. He's like, oh, okay. He goes, well.

I can send you to a place that nobody goes. He goes, it's, you know, too rugged for horses, too steep for mint, all this stuff. And he goes, the only person that ever goes there is Billy Cruz. And that sounds good.

You and Roy are like, check.

Yeah, it was awesome. And so that was. But also, I kind of. I did learn something from that, too, because what I was. I had learned at that time, and it's been proven over and over again, is rugged country like that. If men who spend a lot of time in it die often. It's just part of the. The mounds are so unforgiving. And Billy Cruz died back there, and he died in a plane crash. But it's like if. While he's scouting elk in those mountains, and I just. It just gets proven over and over again. It's like, you know, people go and they get a taste of the mountains, they come back. But the longer you spend there, the more you're kind of, you know, you're.

Just playing the odds.

You're rolling the dice and. But in the meantime, we did go there, and I ended up hunting back in that same country for many years. Roy moved to Alaska after that first season. But, yeah, it was. It was amazing. We never saw anybody back there. Super rugged.

This is kind of cool. You say one of your favorite books of all time is Hunting with the Bow and arrow by Dr. Saxton Pope, written in 1923. And you call out a couple parts. On page 181, it reads. We also began preparing ourselves for the contest. Although habitually in good physical condition, we undertook special training for the big event. In this case, he and Young were preparing for a grizzly bow hunt. Pope continues, by running the use of dumbbells and other gymnastic practices, we strengthened our muscles and increased our endurance.

Regarding the back country hunt, he writes, we were there to win, and nothing else matter mattered. Adding later, we. We were trained down to the rawhide in sinew, keyed to alertness and ready for any emergency.

Seems like that could be, like, the root of you saying, hey, I can get in freaking better shape for this.

Yeah. I mean, that was a hundred years ago.

Yeah.

And those guys knew that at that time that, hey, we need to be at our best to be in these mounds and. And get animals killed with an arrow.

100 years ago, these guys were freaking training. Training.

Yeah.

Did you, like, make that connection?

No, no, I. Because when I started training, so hunting. The. The hunter community.

Is steeped in tradition. Obviously, the tradition isn't guys like Saxon Pope and Art Young. It's guys that, like, maybe my stepdad, who. They're just getting away, going to deer camp. They're not. We're not training for this. You know, this is kind of a vacation.

So when I first got into. And I started doing this running and doing the thing like, hey, I need to be a little better. I got a lot of pushback from the hunting community itself, like saying, you know, you don't need to run a marathon to kill an elk. What? I know this guy and that guy, and they kill all animals all the time, and they're overweight. And Roy was actually over. You know, he's a big dude, overweight. But the difference is he was just so much tougher and better than most guys. So they. But they'd use that as an example of why you don't need to be in shape. And I'd be like, well, okay, you're not Roy, first of all. And. But I got for years pushed back and still. Probably still do. I just don't pay attention to it. But people. Hunters just don't want to because it kind of puts the onus back on them. Like, God, do I have to take this shit more serious? What do I got to do here?

So, like you said, Roy moves to Alaska, and you go, it's pretty. Not funny is not the word. But you can't find anybody else really to hunt with. No. He must have been one of those bastards just, like, strong and can just carry his weight. It's no factor.

No, he. I mean, there's a. I can't remember if I talk about it in there, but one time we were on Prince of Wales Island. Here's his attitude Wrapped up to hunt prince of Wales for black bear. You need a boat. It's all on the island chain. You got to go to open water. Sometimes.

There'S tides coming in and out. So there's. There's. The water is pretty dangerous out there. But we had boat motor problems. And without a boat, the motor running right out there, it was not only dangerous, but you couldn't get anywhere. So he's like, I'm gonna take this motor off and go. Go into town, Craig, Alaska, which is there in southeast Alaska. And. But it was about 15 miles on the water, and he had this little, like, 10 or 12 foot raft that he had to put a piece of plywood on, put the motor on, and kind of lay down and kind of hold the front of it, because to get on step that. That it was coming up, you know, and so he'd have to lay. And he did 15 miles all the way in there on a Sunday, Bought this new motor for 4,000 bucks. And all the way, I don't know, he got a ride on a. Actually a big ship. And I could see him. I would see him coming the next day. And I'm like, looking, and I'm like, I think I see Roy on there. And they're like, towing this little raft tied to a rope behind it. And I'm like, so anyway, it was what. And he did this at midnight when he took off. He's like, well, no, we. This is what we got.

Just by himself.

By himself. And went in, bought this, you know, $4,000 motor, brought it back out. We're back in business. Killing bear. But that. That. Whatever it took. Yeah, that's the attitude right there.

Hey.

Oh, this isn't working. Here's what we got to do. Whatever it takes to make this happen. Most people aren't like that.

Yeah, no, that's. That's next level. Yeah, you say. Then after he moves to Alaska for the next 12 years, I ended up hunting in the sprawling unforgiven eagle cap wilderness, most of the time on my own. My entire existence seemingly revolved around preparing for just one crack at the wilderness. Bulls and bucks where Billy Cruz had walked. I learned more about myself on those solo haunts than I could have in a lifetime in the everyday world.

One of the things you learn, you talk about, are you willing to bleed. In most cases, it takes some blood to achieve your goals. The farther you go, the fewer who will be able to go or be willing to go with you.

I knew that if I could get back farther into the wilderness, I could find better hunting. I could get away from other hunters. If I was in better shape and if I was mentally stronger, I could outlast anyone. This is sort of like this. It's. It's really cool to read the book and there's so many good details in here. To see your evolution as you're.

Kind of pioneering this attitude of like, oh, I can just out work and go further and I'll end up being alone out there.

Yeah.

And that's what I want.

That was the only way I could up my odds, you know, now we get to go hunt some great country. You know, money can get you that opportunity, or knowing the right people can get you that opportunity. So that ups your odds a little bit. Still very hard, you know, as you know, still very hard, but you'll earn opportunity. But for me at that time, the only way to earn opportunity was, you know, I had no advantage, I had no money advantage. All people in the regular society, they're smarter. More money, more connections, more whatever. I was down at the bottom in the mountains. I'm like, okay, I call the shots back here. Now all those advantages you have on the outside don't mean back here. Now if I'm in better shape than you and I know this country better and I'm willing to work harder than you, this is. This is my country. This is. I call the shots. I. This is my domain.

I'm laughing and smiling over here because all the money in the world isn't going to carry your ass up that freaking hill.

That's it. And that's the first time I ever felt like, you know, because I hadn't felt like shit my whole life, you know, as far as.

I don't know what. Where I stood on, I guess a ladder of success. And now all of a sudden I'm like, wait a second. This is different. It felt different. The challenge for me at that time was try not to be. I was. I mean, I was selfish because it's. I mean, I found something that, like, for me was good, but now I had family at home. So I'd be back there all the time and I'd be like, should I be back away from my family because it wasn't like a job and were.

You making any kind of connection towards what it could turn into use, just meat?

No, I was just, you know, this is just what I wanted to do. So it was like a selfish thing because people can justify all the time, well, I got to do this for work, so I got to travel for work. And it's like, it gives us, it's easy to say, well, you know, people have to do that. We're providing for the family. Something like that. I'm going to sell an article for 50 bucks and be away from my family for 10 days. That doesn't pencil out. But it's just like I felt like that's what I needed to do because when I wasn't doing that, I was at home, I was miserable. Then I felt like maybe I wanted to go drinking or maybe. How am I getting this, you know, like a buzz, I guess.

But I used to get home from work at like 6 o', clock, maybe 7 o' clock at night, walk in, put my work bag down, pick up my Jiu Jitsu bag and go to Jiu Jitsu for two hours. And I did that every night. I did that every night. And I remember sometimes where my wife would be looking at me with.

With just like a combination of anger and, and lack of understanding. Like, not like, like, what, are you serious right now? Like, this is what you're doing. You got three kids and you're, you're home for nine minutes and you're going to leave, right? And I did that. I did that every night. And you know, when I, when what was interesting was my wife eventually realized that if I didn't do that, I had, I would, I would be a bad, I would be, I wouldn't be happy. I would be like, like not, not have a good attitude about stuff, right? Because I felt like that was what I needed to do. And yeah, there's, I, I, unfortunately, I never really thought about it as being selfish until you just said that right now. I guess I realized that even at the time, but I always kind of.

Kind of rationalized this thing where I'd kind of relate it to my regular job where I'd say, well, hey, you know, I need to be able to do, do this in case I end up in a situation where I got to use this stuff in combat. And that'd be kind of my rationalization. I'd even try and rationalize that to my wife sometimes, but my wife's not an idiot. And she'd be like, hey, listen, you, you, you got freaking. A rifle, a pistol and two knives. And you think you're gonna have to choke a person out on the battlefield. So, yeah, it's, I, I think it is. You know, you have some.

Some like, primordial urges as a, as a human, you know, to fight or to hunt. Like, it seems like it's almost Caveman brain. For me, it got really focused on fighting. For you, it got really focused on hunting. Both those are total primal instincts to have, you know? So here's an example. You got the book of how you're living your life on Friday afternoon and leave work around 4pm driving through the North Portland. Through North Portland, arriving at 1am at my Eagle Cap trailhead. I'd load up my pack and start walking. Try to get 12 miles or so in by first light. I wouldn't sleep. Get back in there by first light Saturday morning, be able to hunt or scout until Sunday. Then I would hike out and drive home Sunday night, being back at work on Monday morning. Two nights, no sleep. Two days. Scouting or hunting, if it was the season, was worth it. These trips gave me the confidence to do my long solo haunts. I was testing myself, passing each test. What. What caught me. What caught me on that one was like, this isn't even hunting season. This is. You're just going out there to scout and get to know the terrain.

Yeah. So it's.

Your wife is pissed.

Right? I mean, and I. So it kind of is frustrating a little bit. And I don't. At that time, I wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna prove all these people wrong. I mean, kind of I was proving people wrong. I felt like. But it was more like I just felt like I would. Needed to do that or I wanted to do that, maybe to be selfish. But now people see, like, where you are now and you write a book or, you know, you're teaching leadership and, you know, there's like. People see everything. Like, you get a lot of attention because now you're somebody. But it was the dues you paid going to every night. You'd go to training after work or if I do that. The reason why you get to here is because you. You had all that sacrifice. You made all those sacrifices for time and for work. And it's just like, I wanted to ask those people, what the are you doing? What you're worried? I mean, where have you sacrificed? Yeah, of course. It's easy to be envious of this when you're like, oh, you got this many followers and you're sponsored or this or that. It's like, yeah, that's. What about all the grind and the grind where I would be back there and I'd be like, I shouldn't be back here, and I should be at home. I should be being a dad, and I should be this or that. And then I'd be like, well, you can and, and you kind of alluded to it. You can justify almost anything. I'd be like, well, no, I'm not going to be happy if I'm back here. And I'll be a better dad when I get home. And I'll be, you know, I'm showing my. My kids. And when I got a little older, I'd be like, well, I'm showing my. I'm an example for my kids and showing them what hard work can lead to.

I 100% use that. That 100%. As a matter of fact, I told. I. I would tell, like other seals, you know, if they would sit. Get worried about, hey, you know, I'm going on deployment again, I'd say, listen, man, guys have been going on deployment for thousands of years and leaving their kids at home. And that's the example that the kids see, you know, that the dad's going on deployment. And by the way, when you went on deployment back in freaking whatever 500 years ago, your deployment was seven years long.

Right?

Your deployment was five years. Even World War II. In World War II, you went. You left for war in 1941 or 1942, and you came home when it was over.

Yeah.

That's some commitment.

Yeah.

So. Because guys would get. The reason that this would get brought up was guys would get worried about. Primarily they'd be worried about, like, their sons. Hey, you know, I feel like, you know, I'm leaving my son too much. And I said, hey, the moms have been raising young warriors for thousands of years.

Right. That.

You don't need to worry about that. They're. They're gonna look at you and think, hey, this is what. This is what I'm supposed to do.

Yeah.

So they'll figure it out. But I. That sometimes that justification would kind of turn into some rationalization for me. Traded Jiu Jitsu on a Thursday night after I'd be freaking traded all week or whatever.

Well, and the dads have to be gone for the moms to be able to use. Wait till your dad gets home.

True.

That's how they raise those warriors.

Speaking of all this, I'm a worker. The truth is, I've always worked really hard because I've never really felt like I had a ton of natural skills or talent. It would feel unnatural for me not to have a regular job. I feel like such a life is reserved for someone who's a star, and I don't think I got that. So I grind it out. I grind it out at training, and I grind it out at Work, not taking a day off is my only edge. I can't just say, you know, today, I'm not gonna run. I've sacrificed enough. No, that's what everybody does. Everybody has an excuse. Everybody has a reason. You can always come up with a reason not to go after a challenge. So I've learned to never care what the excuse is. It's never valid. That's my attitude, and that's my edge. It's how I've built endurance and fostered resiliency. There are no rest days in my schedule, and that is the reason I excel.

I think it's like, no factor.

No factor. Well, people say, like, oh, you take rest days. I'm like, life. Life gives you rest days.

Yeah.

You know, you get the freaking broken water heater, and all of a sudden you're dealing with that. Or, you know, you get a travel day where it's like, hey, I'm going to be traveling at whatever time. And then the plane lays over, and you're in the airport for four hours, and you lay over and like, okay, life is going to give you rest days.

Right.

I don't take them voluntarily. It's not happening.

Well, I have a hard time. Like, even yesterday, you know, Rihanna went out and Evan was out skydiving, and Andy was out there, too. And I was. I paid to actually go, and I'm like, I actually want to go on a run. So I did 14 miles here, went up to the top of the hill over here, ran along the beach, and just would rather work instead of skydive. So I. I don't know. Maybe I missed out on something, but it's. I just don't. I feel better. I don't know. I just don't feel good unless I've sacrificed, you know, sweated, worked, so I can go to bed at night and be like, well, got it done today.

Yeah. We just had a guy on the podcast named Andrew Huberman, and he's a neuroscientist.

Oh, I love him. Yeah, he's a stud.

But he. One of the things that he was. One of the points he was making is that free dopamine. Dopamine that you don't earn is, like, the worst thing in the world. So dopamine that you get from your. From your phone.

Yeah.

Dopamine that you get from a chocolate chip cookie. Dopamine that you get that you didn't have to earn is, like, the worst thing in the world. And that's probably what you feel is you probably feel like if you don't earn that dopamine. It doesn't feel right.

Yeah. I mean, and people always say over train or you've heard all the sleep thing people love talking about or getting enough sleep. And. And I don't know, I just. I just don't. I don't care about any of that. I mean, I'm going to train every day. I'm probably not going to get enough sleep. But it's like that. That is the only edge.

Yeah.

Just to sacrifice more is the only reason why anybody knows who I am.

Hard work.

By the way, this whole time you're writing for. For bow hunting magazines, local magazines. You get rejected. You get rejected by bowhunter magazine. You write about that there, which is. I mean, that's what happens, right? Yeah, that's what happens.

Then you say, I decided to write my first book, Bow hunting trophy Blacktail. There was never any grand plan. One day I decided I wanted to write a book and I wanted it to be badass, hardback, full cover.

So you do that and you have to borrow a bunch of money to get the thing published. Yeah, it was like what, 50 grand?

Yeah, it was 50,000. No, I. Cause the book was like over $10 each because it was full color, like glossy paper. And I didn't know anything about anything. So it made 5,000 of them. 50,000 bucks. I had like maybe $200 of it. So I borrowed I think 15,000 from my grandma, 10,000 from my other. From my in laws, my mom. I think 15. Anyway, what year was that? That was 99.

So like the Internet isn't even around yet. You can't even sell this thing on the Internet.

Really. No, no. You needed to have a magazine.

How long were those freaking boxes of books sitting around the house for?

Years. Years. I mean, we moved them a couple times. Had a whole spare bedroom filled because it's 5,000 books and they're heavy too.

Yeah. That is not fun.

No. And it took, you know, I.

And your wife's like, dude, I know you spent 50 grand. Now we got one less room in our house.

I know. It was like, was not penciling out. If this is a business plan. Hey, what's your business plan? I never did that one time. Yeah, I never even knew how much the books were going to be until they said, well, here's what you owe us. So the. I'm like, no, I'm writing a book. I don't. I will self publish it. Because nobody said the market's not big enough because it's just black tail Deer, which is just on the west coast of Oregon, Washington, California, and B.C. and so, yeah, it took forever just to even make that money back, but I paid everybody back. Took a while.

What'd you sell the books for? I think, like 20 bucks.

I think 25.

Okay.

Yeah. And then five shipping, so it's like maybe 29.95 with everything. Yeah.

And packing them up yourself.

Yeah. Oh, I know. Yeah. It was. Yeah.

One thing that's awesome about this story, though, is, I mean, your story, your life, is that you just took something that you love to do and just all in. Like, that's what. That's what you're doing.

Yeah. And that's. I mean, I don't. I don't know. I don't know why, how it's worked like this, but it's just been my journey. But, like, I've never been like, well, I want to meet Tiger woods, so I'm gonna try to golf. You know what I mean? It's like everything I've done, I've met a lot of amazing people only through what I do. It's never been, like, just to meet these. So I've. I've been able to train with Olympians and do all this thing just because it's like, no, they're helping, you know, I care about this to build endurance. So I'm going to run with an Olympian to see what I can learn from them or to train with these. The. These biggest badasses or to. Or to lift weights with these studs. You know, Mark Bell, I have those chances to interact just through my thing. I'm not. I haven't changed anything that I do. It's just what I do. But it's a. It's. Stay intrude of. I'm a Bow Hunter on my Instagram bio, just says Bow Hunter. And because of that, I've met. I'm sitting here with you guys. I mean, how incredible is that? I mean, it just doesn't seem real.

That's funny, because I'm thinking the same thing over here. I'm like, hey, this is freaking awesome. You did end eventually. You got into Bow Hunter and.

Your first. Your first thing that you wrote, and this was in 2009, was called bleed.

Yeah.

Hell yeah. Now we get into this little section of life. I'm a fast forward. I started running just for the test to push myself up to 2000. The most I'd ever run was a 10k. Then one time I entered a 7.3 mile race in Salem, Oregon, and guys thought I was crazy for running that far just to get in shape to hunt the blacktail woods around home. Then I ran a half marathon. Then in 2003, I ran my first marathon and finished third overall.

Your first marathon? You finished third overall? That's freaking legit. This was about the time I really began to notice that my physical condition could pay play a huge impact hunting in the woods. This was where I could improve my game. Mm.

And it wasn't like that was a Boston Marathon. I got third in. It was like a pretty small marathon in. In the Gorge. So it was from the Dallas to Hood river. But I did get third still. Yeah.

Hell, yeah. Since that first marathon, I've complete competed in ultramarathons when in peak shape prior. Just prior to bow season, I run at least 20 miles a day. I've ramped it up, an effort to gain not only physical but mental strength.

And.

And it's paid off in many years of consistent success.

You do the Bighorn Trail Run. That's your first ultra?

Yeah.

Which ultra Is anything over 26.2? Yeah.

You got this year? Yeah. You've been writing your whole life? Kind of. And it shows in this book. Awesome stories. You say I led the race until mile 24. The problem was the race didn't end at mile 24. 25.

Yeah.

32 miler.

I finished second overall with a time of 4 hours and 53 seconds. It was a great day to be alive. On almost all the races I run, at some time or another, I want to stop and throw in the towel. Similarly, on many tough hunts, I want to quit and go home to the good life. So why don't I quit what resides in me to keep going? Maybe it's because I don't want to let people down because I'm a regular guy coming from a small. A regular small town who dared to dream big about being special and finding some success in life. Maybe I've always felt like proving people wrong. As I started running marathons, I realized the connection between endurance racing and hunting. Because in both disciplines, you're facing huge barriers that make you want to quit. No one's going to judge you if you quit a hunt. Most people would fail on a hunt. The same goes for an ultramarathon. Not many could call you a failure if you didn't last to the finish of a long ultra, because most people, you know, likely wouldn't even toe the starting line. But to me, failure feels. Feels like all those people who've doubted me over the years were right. I Can't have that.

So now you've got the full on connection between the better shape I'm in, the better I can hunt.

Yeah, it's. I just, I mean, I noticed that I was just at. I had a big advantage over people. I could see people get fatigued. If I was with somebody, I could just, it was just different. And I'm like, I learned that if the hardest thing you've ever done is that hunt, that's bad, it's not good. You're gonna, you because you're gonna. You'll up so much. You have to be on such a. I'm in precision and making good decisions. It's a. You have to be at your very best. So if you're fatigued or if you're thinking about home or all these different things, it's taken away from where your focus should be, you will fail. And I just, I noticed that or I realized I need to be at my very best even at the end of a long hunt. And how it made sense to me was that at the end of a long hunt, instead of being diminished, you should be better because you're getting more dialed into the mountains. You're understanding the animals and their habits. You're getting more mountain tough. And so if you weren't fatigued or have any of those things with time that comes in the mountains, like that wears on people. If that wasn't wearing on you, by the end of that hunt, you're going to be at your very best. And I killed a lot of animals at the very end of the hunt. So.

At one point, the Oregonian newspaper ran an article and the headline reads, bo Hunter beats Armstrong. Tell us that story. It's in the book, but give us the background on that one.

Yeah, I mean, I knew. So Lance was retiring from the Tour de France and he had won seven straight. It's that next year was. Let me think. I think that was in 2006. He ran the New York Marathon. And I'd been a big, big Lance fan. You know, this is before all the, whatever people want to say about PEDs and all that. It's before all that. So he was just like, had overcome this and he was like a hero. He's still somebody I look up to just because he was the best, the very best of what he did. So he was running this marathon, the New York Marathon, and it's my first year running it. It's. It's kind of hard to get into. It's a big race. And so I thought, well, I Want to try to beat the greatest endurance athlete of all time. And so I ended up. I beat him there. That was in 2006. And then we ran together, actually, a little for half the race in Boston in 2008. And I beat him there, too. Of course. It was like a one person. He didn't even know who I was. So it wasn't like, this is Cam versus Lance head to head. He was, you know, he was a superstar. I was just some dude, you know, it's like if LeBron James goes to open gym and somebody, you know, somehow travels and gets some hook shot to go in. They dominated LeBron, so it's kind of like that.

Yeah.

He didn't know.

It's like. It's like beating someone at open mat. Or you're like, someone passes your guard at open mat, they're like, hey, you know, I crushed Jocko. Pass this guard. Like, I didn't even know that we were, you know, I was out there having fun.

We're rolling, right? So. So I was the guy who passed your guard, and Lance was you.

And yet somehow it makes the COVID of the Oregonian. I know. Jocko's guard gets passed by Bo Hust. Exactly.

It was so unjustified. But it's. Hey, I just. All I cared about was there is that it just referred to me as Bow Hunter.

Yeah. That's badass.

That's. It reminds me of. You know, and just everybody. Everybody loves the movie 300, but do you remember what he's like? You know, what's your professional. It's your profession that's such a great part. And then. So I don't have. That's what I do.

Is Bow Hunter now. Did you talk to him during those two races? Didn't one of them. You ran with him for a while and you were, like, talking. Right?

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows if he'll remember? I think we. We did send him a book, though, but.

But. Oh, I was gonna say, so you're not connected.

Now I'm supposed to do his podcast.

Oh, okay.

But we've never talked about this. Like, me, he and I, but he's.

Gonna be like, I let you win.

I don't know. He'll be like, what? I don't even know who. Who you are. But what I remember. This could be a version. You know how you could you tell something, a story to yourself so many times, it's like it becomes the truth. It never happened. But it's like now it's like, I remember Roy told me this one Time. He's like, we went on this moose hunt. And I've been like, yeah, I've never have. I actually never had a shot at a moose. And he's like, you, you blew it on a giant bull. And I'm like, when he goes, remember on the river and the pouring rain and you hit low on that giant bull on the other side of the river? And I was just like, oh my God. That I had totally blocked that out of my memory. I had turned, I had made this truth in my head that I'd never shot at a movie noose.

No, I just didn't want to remember when I blew it. I had definitely shot it on and blew it. So anyway, who knows if this land story is kind of like this, but all I know is we were running and I was running behind him and I was hurting, just dying like mile 13 of the race and I remember it's behind him. He had this gold singlet on like he always wore because like a call to the tour. And I was looking at his calves and I was like, God, he's probably just feels strong. He's not tired at all. Not fatigue, fatigue. And I was like, God, why can't I be an Olympic athlete? You know, he made the Olympics too and. And I just thought he was probably just fresh as can be. And I'm just this 40 year old dad dying. And I get up, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go. I don't care how bad this hurts. I'm gonna, I might just, you know, burst into flames, puke, throw up, collapse. Who knows what's gonna happen? So I fight, fight, fight. Takes me a while. And I get up beside him. So we're running side by side and he goes, he looks over, probably because I was staring at him.

Maybe I was touching his arm, I don't know. But he goes, he goes, is this Heartbreak Hill? And I said, no, not yet. I said, it's still up here. It's like, oh, I'm dying. And I was just like, oh, I'm dying too. But I didn't know you were dying. So that gave me like a weird boost. Yeah, you know, this, this man, God is dying. And here I'm a regular man and I'm dying. So it's like, okay. So we kept going, kept going. And he ended up saying, hey, what's your pace today? And I told him, he's like, do you mind? Who knows if this happened? I think it did, but.

Said, do you mind if I run with You. And I'm like, no, it's like, yeah, 250. So we ran together and, and yeah, it's just like shared a few words. I remember people like Lance, what, 10,000 times. I remember this one guy ran up by him and he's like, he goes, I had testicular cancer too. Lance is like, I mean, we're running this race and it's like, I don't even know how you're supposed to respond, you know, so it was just a weird. But I was right there for all this. Anyway, we, I, I finished 12 seconds, I think, or something ahead of him in that race. But we had this connection.

Yeah, yeah.

So, so much so. The only reason why I maybe didn't make it up.

So even though, even though we're saying that it was the race between you and you and him, but it was really only in your mind.

Yeah.

When someone starts pulling ahead of you in a run, that's a thing, right? So, like, at some point you had to start pulling ahead of him, right?

Yeah. I mean, he had this. There's a motorcade around him because the, the, the elites finished at probably 2, maybe 10 to 8, 208. And we were back at 250. So they had finished. So then the story for the TV was Lance, because Lance was running Boston. So there's like this motorcycle and had a camera on it and all this stuff. And so, yeah, there's some overhead shots and, and we were on tv and my wife, you know, I had told my boys, this is in the book too, but I told my boys that, hey, I'm going to go to Boston and I'm going to beat Lance Armstrong in the race again. Lance doesn't know anything about me, but anyway, they thought I was like, you know, just talking out my ass. They laughing, you can't beat Lance Armstrong. Because they'd been watching him in TV forever and he was such a legend in the, in the, in the Tour, you know, he just, you know, cocky and blow by people and just dominate and rub it in their face. And it's like, so it was like, you know, he had this, this thing about him and this aura. So I said I was going to go back there, run with him, and then beat him at the end. They laughed. And so then on tv, I'm running with Lance Armstrong. I have this camo top on that I cut the sleeves off of. He's got all his Nike gear and there I am and we're running. And then, so at the end I'm like, well, I Told myself, I'm not going to run this whole way and not do what I said. So I took off and. And came across and he had his own finish line, so he had to go veer over to the right. But the reason why I think maybe I didn't make all of it up 100% was because he finished. And then he pointed at me and I, I, like, I went over there and. And we shook hands and said, you know, good job. So we had a. He, whatever, so. And they got a picture. I can't remember if it's in the book or not. It is, but yeah, so, I mean, it was for me, dude, that was. That was. That felt like I was almost athletic, you know, at that time, I was like, this is this. It would be like winning a gold medal, I thought. So it was.

And you got home and your kids were. You told your kids, like, so they saw it?

No, they saw. They were. Well, True was at home. He's watching. And then here's how big a deal Lance was at the time. They announced it on the school intercom that Tanner and True's dad beat Lance Armstrong in the Boston Marathon. So, you know, Eugene is known as. As a running capital of the world. World. You know, we have the Olympics, Olympic trials there all the time. So running is kind of a big thing there. So to have. And everybody knows Boston, everybody knows Lance. So it's like perfect storm.

But it. For me, it was epic.

When are you recording with him?

I don't know. We have to schedule it.

Oh, okay. So I was going to say, if you get this podcast out, hopefully he won't hear this one before he gets you on, because otherwise be like, oh, yeah, I totally remember you.

I don't. I don't know either.

He'll be ready for you.

I know.

And he'll be like, no.

Yeah, that did not happen.

All right, so speaking of running, here we go. With over 17,000ft of elevation gain, the Bighorn 100 was one of the toughest hundred mile foot races in the United States. It would be my first ultra over 50 miles. The previous year at the Bighorn 50, I finished third overall. It would be my first race where I would be required to run through the night. My wife was having second thoughts and tried to persuade me to reconsider.

You said, I've already done a 50 miler. My goal is to find out exactly what I can do to find. Where's my breaking point.

So at this point, you've done some 50 milers and now you're going for the hundo.

Yeah. Because in the ultra marathon world, it's. Until you do 100, it doesn't even, it's like, I don't know, they don't even really count it, you know, like the 50k, which is 32 miles or the 50 mile, it's like, well, have you done 100 yet? So that's like the barrier of entry for the ultra world. Yeah. And I hadn't. So that was my first one.

And you say the Bighorn 100 is an out and back run consisting of 76 miles of speed single track trail, 16 miles of rugged double track jeep trail, and 8 miles of gravel road with 17,500ft of climb and 18,000ft of descent. So I looked at the map of this. I went online and looked. It looked like. So it sort of looks like you're going up and down mountains the whole time. Are you going on a ridgeline or something? Or what is it? Or in and out of mountains?

No, you're. So it starts, you start pretty high and then you go, you go up to 9,000ft, then you stay on the ridge, then you drop all the way down to maybe 6,000ft and then you climb back at the 48 mile mark as a turnaround. And that climbs from 6,000 back up to about almost 10,000, probably nine something. But it's a gradual climb up and then you reverse and come back.

That's what struck me as very sucky when I looked at it, because I was like, oh, you know, it kind of looks like. Because they have a profile shot where they kind of just show you the elevation. And it's up, down. It's basically up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, kind of descending, right? Up, down, up, down, up. You're kind of slowly descending. And then I read your book and I was like, oh. And there's a turnaround. So you go up, down, up down, up, down, up, down, up, down. And you're kind of descending and then it's up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up. But going back up.

Yeah, that there's a grind from, from. I remember this specifically From I think 60 something to 82. And so hard. It was so just. It was up the whole way and it's starting to get hot and it's like you'd been running all night.

And you said even 20 miles into it, you borrowed a camelback from somebody. You got that thing wearing holes into your back, did it?

I never trained with it.

And you went out of the gate like prefontaine just going hard as you could went out.

It's like the 800 meter. Back in middle school.

It was. Yeah. And, and I thought I was going to get it to turnaround quicker. So I didn't have a headlamp because I thought it was going to be there. I had my head. Here's what I'm going to do. I'll get here at, you know, whatever it right when it's starting to get dark. But I didn't get there till about 11:12 hours into the race. And then so it'd been dark for a couple hours. So I'm up in the snow. There's snow up there at the turnaround and post hole in through the snow with no light. And I get to the turnaround and I was like, oh my God, this is brutal. So that was my first one that was 48 miles down. I had 52 left.

You say in here that, that 48 mile turnaround, the porcupine aid station is real convenient spot for DNFers. That was the official notation on the race results for runners who did quit DNF did not finish. I saw guys at porcupine, tough guys, obviously. I mean, hell, to get there, they just ran 48 miles to the last 18 uphill to the tune of a 4, 500 foot gain, looking like they were on their deathbed wrapped in blankets, being attended by medics. It was at porcupine that many called it a race.

Yeah. See, having been in the military for a long time or I was in the military for a long time and we would be going out on patrols and you pay really close attention to how much elevation you're going to gain or lose. You know, you're doing a map study. You're looking at the contour lines like you're figuring it out. So when you say 4,500ft gain or a total of 18,000, that sucks.

Yeah, it's it. And that, that's what make. It's not just the distance, it's the terrain too. And on trail also, your body's like correcting all the time. You know, like on road you'll see some elite marathoners and they don't even have abs. You know, they kind of almost got a little potbelly because you can get so efficient at running on a road in the mountains. You are correcting all your core is like getting taxed. Your quads are getting taxed is a whole different type of running. But it's, it's taxing.

What are you carrying on?

You, you Got to take some water usually and some calories.

So that's it? Yeah.

You get to. You were trying to do it in how long? 24 hours?

Yeah, that's always the goal. If you can break 24 hours and 100 mile or you're so JIT, you're legit.

At 12pm I topped out at mile 82. I was at 25 hours.

Now it's not under 24.

And I.

Still had 18 miles left.

By 3:10pm I reached the last aid station at mile 95. When I got to mile 95, Tanner was there waiting for me and ran the last five with his old man, that a boy. I told him I couldn't stop because of my knee and said we had an hour and 50 minutes to run five miles.

Yeah, I wanted to. I definitely wanted to get in under 30 hours.

Right.

Being 29. So.

And was Tanner just like. I mean, you can run. You can run five miles in 30 minutes?

Yeah. I mean, he was, I think 14 at the time. And I kind of took him just kind of. You know how we, we talked about. We always try to justify. So I'm like, well, if my son's there, it's like I'm not really being selfish.

So he had to stay in the hotel by himself for a whole day, 29 hours. I had somebody give him a ride to that aid station to go the last five, and he didn't even really want to do five, so. But I was going pretty slow at that time.

At 4:20pm 100 miles were in the books. Official time, 29 hours, 20 minutes. I was 100 mile ultra marathoner. I earned my first hundred mile belt buckle.

Yep, that's what you get instead of a medal or a trophy or anything you do get usually a belt buckle.

Is that. Is that just like out west or is that everywhere?

I don't know. Maybe out. I'm not sure. Yeah.

Check. 100 miles.

Fast forward a little bit here.

You say. In the final year of my dad's life, he reminded me once again how much I respected and admired him. From the moment doctors discovered a lump on his liver, Bob Haynes began his fight with cancer. It was an aggressive form of cancer, but he never gave up. For 18 months, he waged a war against it. I'm going to beat it, he told me. Everybody who gets cancer says this, and sometimes they do.

So your dad.

Comes down with. With liver cancer.

You talk about that and hear. And as you're talking about that, you still are working your job, you're still being A dad and you're still training and you're still running, then you have a goal and you say. The most coveted award in the ultra marathoning world is the silver buckle awarded at the Western States Endurance Run. It's the most famous 100 mile race in the world because of its history and competitiveness. I earned my belt buckle in my second 100 miler by finishing in under 24 hours at 22 hours and 41 minutes. In my world, if there was ever a comparison to an Olympic gold medal, it would be this silver buckle.

So you're going to go for this thing. On the drive down to where the race started in Olympic Valley, California, I talked to my dad on the phone and he didn't sound good. He'd been battling cancer for cancer for a year and a half, so I knew in my heart he was nearing the end of his fight. As I ran, I took some solace in knowing he was following my progress. Live on the ws100.com 1 website at 3:41am I crossed the finish line in Auburn, California and in doing so earned my silver Western States buckle. I just logged a nearly seven hour improvement over my first hundred mile race. I started out the race supremely confident, but during those 22 hours and 41 minutes of reflection while running, doubt crept in. More than once through those struggles, I kept telling myself that my pain was temporary. In a few days time I would be healed up and richer from the experience. For my dad there would be no healing. There would be, there would only be deeper and more debilitating pain and sickness than death.

I finished the race that Sunday morning. We drove home that day. Getting home very late, I went to work the next day.

I will never forget looking into dad's eyes upon my return from the race and saying, dad, I wish I could give you some of my strength. Don't give up on me yet. He told, he told me he still thought he was going to beat it. I will never forget his will to live. A handful of days after I earned my silver buckle in the Western States race, my dad passed on early in the day on July 5. The pain of losing him was much worse than any I'd felt before from the races, life or anything.

Yeah, that, that was definitely a hard time.

That was like a big transition because on July 4th every year there's the but to butte 10k in Eugene. My dad, his how he lived with my stepmom Candy pretty close to the course. So they would walk down to Dairy Mart and we'd be doing the 10k and run by him every time, every year, forever. And so I'm running that. That day, July 4, 2010, the day before he died. And I was getting up there by Dairy Mart, no dad. And so he never missed. You know, like I said, running is so important. The Beauty Butte's the biggest race in Eugene.

So it was, you know, I mean, I knew, but people with cancer, it's just like. It's always this thing known. Quite a few people have it and everybody's going to beat it, and you just know, and it just. It's heartbreaking because.

They'Re not going to beat it. The chemo is going to. You know, you can only take the chemo so long, so the cancer is held back for a while. But then once you stop the chemo because your body can't take it, then the cancer comes back harder. And it's like everybody kind of knows the routine, but nobody wants to talk about it. But I knew. And so then not seeing him there that day, and then, you know, then he died that on. Early in the morning on July 5th and had to go over there. And, you know.

It was.

It was just a. You know.

When somebody dies at the house like he did, you have to have the funeral home or whoever, the corner or whatever come over. So he comes over and he's by himself and he. My dad's room is upstairs. And he's like. I said, how are you? How are you getting him down? He's like, well, could you help me? And so we had to put him in a bag and had to help carry him out. And it's like.

I don't know, it's one of those.

You just never forget, never forget that. And so it's just death, this journey, you know, your dad not being around, it's like it makes all the other, like I say in there, the physical pain seem like nothing to me.

What did your dad think about the. The freaking hundred mile races? Because those weren't really around when your dad was running.

No, he probably. I mean, he. He would act like he cared, but, you know, he was more of a Olympic event person. Pole vault, high jump, running. You know, the ultras are kind of like the kind of a weird offshoot of that, you know, so he was probably like, well, for. He probably think it was better than bow hunting because he never hunted. He's just an athlete his whole life. So he would say, you know, when I kill an animal, I'd lose brain cells. So he was like, pretty liberal. South Eugene's a pretty liberal school in Eugene, and he was track coach there forever, so he never got the hunting point part, but he, you know, so the ultras are probably a little better than hunting. He can celebrate those a little more, but still not quite as good as, you know, real track.

Yeah. I don't know, there's something, I don't think, like, dads are ever impressed by anything you do. You're always just like, well, you know.

That'S tough.

That's a tough crowd.

Yeah, the old man's a tough crowd for sure.

Yeah.

I remember I was with Leif, who I wrote Extreme Ownership with, and we made the New York Times bestseller list. Right. And so I, I called my parents, I was like, hey, you know, and Leif remembers this because I had him on speakerphone. I was like, hey, just found out we made the New York Times bestsellers list. And my mom's like, well, it really, what really counts is how long you stay on there. Jeez.

I was like, cool.

That was your mom.

Yeah. I was like, cool. Later.

Yeah, good point.

Yeah. Like, cool.

Yeah.

My boss, you know, later. Sorry about that. Sorry bothered you.

Oh, good times. Yeah. I just wanted to taste that thing. I'll taste the very bottom.

Just taste it.

Don't.

One minute I'm going to go on record saying if the, if your book doesn't, your book, you know, it'll make it. I'm, I'm, I'm going on record as saying it will make it. It'll make it. Dude. The, the freaking, the tour you're doing right now. Yeah, it'll make it.

Yeah. And they're, you know, it's not based on sales. It's based on whatever their weird voodoo is.

Yeah. It'd be the upset of the century if it makes it.

Well, you know, you know Jordan Peterson book 12 Rules for Life? Have you ever heard of that?

Yeah.

It's literally the biggest selling book in the past. I don't know how long. Yeah, it didn't make it.

So that is.

Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, they got their own little. They got their own things they're promoting over there.

Yeah.

Anyways, going back to this book, you got a whole section in here on a bunch of people.

Courtney. How do you say her last name?

Dewalter.

You got Courtney Dewalter, Michael Chandler, Connor McGregor, Conor McGregor, David Goggins. You talk about Jordan, Kobe, Brady, Tiger, Steve from Prefontaine. You just got a bunch of awesome freaking athletes and studs that you talk about. Kind of what you take Away from all them. So that was a pretty cool section. And then, like you said, you've gotten to meet all these people and freaking hang out with them and. Yeah. Did you. Did you meet Tiger?

No, no, no. And not. I just like their mindset. Yeah.

Well, Jordan, Kobe, Brady, and although you. You exchanged some. Some, like, social media with Brady. With Brady, yeah.

And I. I have talked to Connor before, but all I ever said to Connor was, this is kind of. He's on his come up, and he was, like, really taken off, and he was sitting there. I was. You know, Joe had the hookup for the seats. You know, God bless Joe in the ufc. But so Connor was sitting there with his girlfriend. And I go over there, and I just said. I go. I said, how have you ever lost? Because he had two. He has two. Had two losses at this time.

He was.

I think he's cage warriors or whatever over there. And then came up and was on a pretty good tear in the ufc, but I was like, he has two losses. And I said, how have you ever lost? Because you seem unbeatable right now. He's like, well, I was just young. Just wasn't that good. So anyway, that was the only time I've ever really exchanged words with him. But, yeah, and I never met Kobe, but I took a lot. And in Jordan, I haven't met him. But that mindset, you know, the winning mindset, everybody can take something from. From those guys.

Yeah. How good was that documentary, the Last Dance?

Oh, my God, I loved it. Loved it. Yeah.

Speaking of dads, you know how. Well, like, dads never listen to anything that you say, so. My dad's a sports fanatic. A sports fanatic. And I go, hey, you should really watch this thing, the Last Dance.

Like, it's. I can't get him to watch it.

He still hasn't.

He still hasn't watched it.

He's the one person in the world who hasn't watched it.

He's the one person in the world who is a basketball fanatic. Coached basketball, refereed basketball. And I said, hey, hey, dad. This is probably, like, the coolest thing that's ever been made about basketball from a media perspective. Yeah, you should really watch it. You will really enjoy it.

Yeah, you should have told him not to watch.

That's what I should have done. I should have told him it was stupid.

Yeah, I know. They did such a good job. And Jordan's mindset, oh, my God, how do you not. I love when he's, like, getting on the guys. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

All those.

And then the next. See, I grew up, and you probably get. Well, see, you're older than me, but by the time Jordan's time was here, I was already in the military, so I wasn't tracking as hard as I was as I was in the 80s, right. When it was, you know, the Celtics and the Lakers.

Yeah.

And me being from New England, it was like, Celtics 100 all day long. And Larry Bird is like a God.

Oh.

You know, and then you have Larry Bird, because Larry Bird's attitude is savage similar. And you know, the thing that they say about Bird, and they say this, and you can go back and forth and whatever, but, you know that Bird wasn't as athletic as a lot of players in the NBA, but he was just such a hard worker.

Yeah.

That he was just going to outwork you.

Right.

And that's what he was going to do. So my mindset was always like, I'm just going to have to work harder.

Yeah.

Like Bird.

Yeah.

Like. And that. You know, my dad, when I played basketball, if I didn't come home with, like, skinned knees from diving on the floor.

Yeah.

That was like a failure, Right?

Exactly. Well, yeah. Me. Me and Tanner. Tanner was a basketball player, and he. We had so many battles because I was probably like, your dad. And I would just be, like, pissed the whole time watching him play. He would score 32 and a half, one game. And I'm like. I'm like, you're not even playing defense. Yeah, I am. I go, you're not. You're not getting. I said, as soon as that ball leaves their hand from whoever you're guarding, it has to go all the way to the floor and all the way back into their hand during that time. Why don't you dive on it?

So then he finally, like, years later, now, he watched some old tapes from. From high school, and he's like, God, dad. He goes, I can't believe how lazy.

I was on defense.

And I'm like, no, we had. But we had so many fights about it.

Yeah. I suck, by the way. Note to note to everyone, I sucked at basketball. I was a hustler, though. I would just hustle. I would. I would steal. You know, I play. I would play D. Yeah.

Well, that Larry Bird gave white guys hope. But what people. What most people skip over is he was also like, what, six, six, nine? Nine.

Yeah.

So he's not like, just a little white guy. He's. And he could shoot better than anybody.

Yeah. He was a beast.

Yeah.

So you got that cool Chapter you're kind of talking about what you take away from all those, all those badass individuals. Then you got a section here, this beast mode. There are no rest days. As irrational as it may seem in my mind, I'm not good enough to take a day off and I never will be. Running, training and bow shooting have always been a therapy of sorts for me. What I call my lift, run, shoot, lifestyle is, is a means to an end, and that end is hunting. Preparation is key to achieve any goal. You cannot fall back on luck or talent. Those will leave you empty handed every time. You kind of made this point earlier and I knew this part was coming. Like, you can't, you can theoretically not be in good shape and go out and you can kill a bull. It can happen.

Yeah.

And I've heard stories from guides telling me that there will be people that show up to hunt, that they really haven't really even sighted in their bow yet.

I know, I know, it's. I couldn't imagine being a guide. I would hate to be the. I'd be like, I don't know how they just don't be like, what are you, what in the hell is going on? Because also to me it's like it shows respect to the animal when you show it prepared. You know, when you're not prepared, you're, you're shooting an arrow. You can hit it in the guts, you hit in the ass, hit it in the wherever. It's like you don't care about that animal's life so much. So literal or whatever. How I worded that wrong. But I mean it's so in, in significant, you can't prepare for this hunt. That, to me, I don't like that.

Yeah.

And then what, what you're saying, like that's another underlying theme in your book is like, sure, you can theoretically do that, but if you, everything that you can do to be a little bit more prepared is going to just up your odds a little bit. Yeah, a little bit more.

Well, I would always think that. I've always thought about things and percentages and numbers and I'd always think even in basketball. So you could go back because I played all these sports, but I try to get this to my kids and whatever. But it's like the, the. So you're in better shape, so your reaction time is probably a little quicker. So if you can get. And it might just be one finger hits that ball, that, that slows that ball down enough where the next guy down the line to where that pass is going the ball's going slower so they could get to the ball, knock it loose, kick it to you, you could score whatever, all. And that started with the fingertips, which started with preparation, which started with reaction time. So it's like, I'd always say, you can't measure some of this stuff with these big, big factors and big numbers. But it's percentage wise, even if it's a tenth of a percent, that adds up, so the more I can do to add those percentages, I'm just going to be that much better.

Yeah, that 1/10 of a percent, that might be the 1/10 of percent that means a different success or failure.

Yeah, because also I've thought about this in terms of hunting, where if that broadhead blade. So I shoot heavy poundage also, and people want to criticize this, you don't need to shoot £90 or whatever. So I'm always thinking that if that animal reacts and it's spinning when that arrow hits. And because that force, that arrow is greater where instead of kicking off the bone and going, say, to the right, it pushes through the bone, gets more penetration and maybe catches that one artery with one blade. And that one blade cutting that artery because you have higher poundage, you were more prepared and you got that arrow more where you wanted it to. That artery would drip a blood that maybe you lost blood. And then you found the one drop that led you the direction where then you found the animal or more blood. But it was that one drop that did that. What caused that extra drop of blood, which can make all the difference in the world. And it's like, you can't tell me all the shit I think about and all the work I put in doesn't make a difference, because you can't tell me that that's not immeasurable. Yeah, that's. That's a difference.

I was shocked the first time I was following a blood trail. I was with Dudley. The.

The.

You are literally looking for blood.

That is the size of a. Actually smaller than the size of a pinhead. Yeah, I. I was like, holy.

Like, I'm. I'm following Dudley and he's walking. All of a sudden he's like, right here. Because I'm falling because I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Yeah. You know, I'm marking. You know what we find? He's like, right here, and I gotta get up and like, basically get on my knees and go, oh, yeah, I see it.

Yeah.

Freaking skills.

Yeah.

And that's another. You know, when I was talking earlier, about all the different skills that come into play. That's just to shoot at the thing. Because once you shoot at it, you gotta go find it. And there's a whole nother incredible skill set that comes into play there. Yeah.

And sometimes it's not even blood. Sometimes it could just be fluid. Like if you hit back and maybe you hit guts, that's not gonna bleed. There's not a lot of blood in the guts. So. But it might just be clear fluid. Fluid. So it's not even a red drop of blood. But you're like, hey, you're looking at, you know, kind of doing a little autopsy. You got to know. You're like, what? You smell it, dude. The texture, then that leads you to blood. But yeah, it's a lot to it.

A freaking hard game.

Yeah.

You say I'm not even the best bow shot, but I want to be. There are guys at my hometown pro shop, the bow rack.

Yeah.

That are better shots than me, But I do work very hard at it. The key to my success is to throw hard work at everything I do. I can't scout elk every day, so I lift, run, and shoot.

Yeah. I just like feel like that's moving that needle in the right direction.

You got a story in here that is really just lays all this out.

Going back to the book, Do I deserve to be here? I dreamt of hunting the San Carlos Apache Indian reservation for decades. Located in southeastern Arizona and encompassing 1.8 million acres of land, San Carlos produces what I believe are the most amazing elk in the world. The reservation allocates only a handful of tags each year because the density of are low. And they manage this country for trophy bulls. This means to hunt there is very expensive. Altogether, a hunt like that costs upward of $70,000, which is more than I've made annually for nearly all of my life.

Compare that to the tag from my first out of state elk hunt in wyoming, which cost 1100 bucks.

Nobody wants to have to write a check that big and have nothing to show for it. So there's a lot riding on me making the perfect shot. Bow hunting the biggest, most coveted elk in the world adds to this pressure. You can't stop thinking about all you've sacrificed and the years you've worked to pay for this opportunity. To me, that money essentially could affect the quality of life provided for my family. All this stuff starts weighing on you. That was why I kept one wondering whether I deserve the honor to be at San Carlos, One of the many incredible hunting opportunities I've been Blessed with over the years, I felt like I didn't belong or didn't really deserve the chance. I'm not sure why this is, but I know this perspective keeps me focused on capitalizing and being appreciative of the experience. My goal was to live up to the expectations of being respect a respectful bow hunter and celebrating these special elk mountains appropriately. Two words that come to mind are the ones Maximus says at the start of the battle in gladiator strength and honor. Bow hunters need to be strong mentally and physically, but they also need to show honor. Honor is, to me, the attribute that makes bow hunting so special.

So this, this is talk about, like, what? For someone that doesn't understand hunting, what does it mean to go into this Indian reservation where they have limited number of elk? They're trophy elk, which means they're monsters.

And they can only allow so many people to hunt. And because they can only allow so many people to hunt and because the elk are so monstrous, they are gonna charge money for it.

Yeah, it's supply and demand, this place. Like years ago, 20 years ago, there'd be a video VHS tape out and would say, you know, giant bulls of San Carlos. We used to watch it at the bow rack. And these bulls seemed surreal how big they were. Not even the same species from the elk that we've. We'd hunted, you know, giant bulls, 400 inch of antler, which is. Which is huge.

So this was like a legendary place. And then because of the money, that eliminates a lot of people.

Pretty much everybody, Pretty much everyone.

But the thing with, with there.

It takes more than money because there's a lot of guys with money, a lot of dickheads with money. The, the tribe isn't going to deal with a bunch of dickheads. They don't have to because they have the biggest bulls in the world. So I remember this guy sent me this message a while ago and it said he, you know, how do you get to hunt San Carlos? I sent a. I sent an email, and I guess my $20,000 isn't enough for them. You know, I'm like, well, I can already tell you're probably just a dumb. You know, so he could. He could have, you know, offer a million that he's probably not going to get a chance to hunt there because they're not going to deal with that. So you have to be respectful, which I. I'm always respectful. But also I value what it means to hunt there. And then also I've sacrificed a lot to be able to have that money. And then still that wasn't enough. Still it took Kip folks, is who got me the first opportunity there. And he had hunted there one year and they could, they could tell what type of guy he was. He cared. He's trying to do his best. His best. He didn't have the greatest hunt, but he paid his dues and put in the time there. And then this other tag came open and he said, well, I got a guy, you know, Cam, I think, you know, if we could give him, get him an opportunity here, I think he'll buy that tag. So that's how it happened. But it takes more than just money. It takes a lot of things come.

In and Kip folks, just for a little intro, he's one of the founders of Underarm and well, he was a freaking college athlete stud his damn self.

Yeah.

Playing lacrosse and. And then really was a huge part of the driving force behind the operations at. At Under Armour.

Right.

And then was the driving force behind the Under Armour hunt stuff. And now he's one of the driving forces behind Origin hunt, FYI.

Yeah, he's definitely found that's his niche. I mean he's such a hard worker and he cares about it. Cares about for whatever reason, that apparel, that just building clothing, it's like his jam.

He loves it.

Yeah.

So you say this here Kip, folks, one of the original founders of Under Armour and a good friend of mine was there with me and he was the one who would give me this opportunity at San Carlos, as I headed out to the the best elk country in the world for two solid weeks if need be. I was confident. But to think I'd even get a chance at a once in a lifetime bull like this seemed completely far fetched. So you're out. They. They identified. Do they. They tell you, hey, we got a bull here that you might be because they're scouting bulls all the time.

Yeah.

And they find a 400 inch bull. What? That's their estimation. It's a 10 by 9. Yeah.

It was crazy.

Insane. It was.

Yeah.

And you nickname or they nickname the.

The.

The bull. Tight bull because he had like a narrow rack with 10 by 9, but narrow.

So again you go through some of the details here. I'm going to pick it up. You got a guide named Chris. Chris and Kip were behind me over a little spine ridge about 40 yards away. All good so far. The still unseen bull screamed a bugle. And by the way, right now go onto YouTube and Google Bull elk bugling and crank up the volume. And then Press play.

Yeah, because it is.

It's freaking primal insanity when you hear those things going off.

It is.

So. The still unseen bull screamed a bugle. He was close. I estimated where he'd come out of the timber and looked for shooting lanes. It was a mess. The burn had burnt trees and brush everywhere. I got nervous that once he entered the burn, I wouldn't have a clear shot. I had seconds to make a decisions at the moment of truth. A bow hunter makes certain decisions that impact success or failure. The line between the two is razor thin. I glanced at the tree I was leaning against and noticed some good limbs to climb. I quickly surmised that I'd increase my potential shot opportunities if I climbed up the tree. Since I had been set up on the shady side of the tree, my movement would be much less noticeable in the shadows. Scaling the tree as quickly as I could, I climbed 10 to 15ft up in the air and set up to shoot. This elevated position opened my shooting lanes greatly. Seconds after getting set in the tree, the bull ripped the bugle, answering Chris and exposing himself. It was tight bull, 30 yards away. While we were in his country, we had no idea he was the bull coming in. I took one quick look at his 400 inch 10x9 rack, recognized what bull he was, and directed my focus on getting a good arrow in him. Chris Cow called the tight and tight bull closed in, heading straight toward me and ultimately stopped directly underneath me. I slowly eased my bow back. The bull noticed movement or sensed or heard me, probably thinking mountain lion, if you could have asked him. And he became spooked. Running back toward the timber. He stopped at just under 30 yards, quartering away as I frantically tried to get position to shoot while balancing on a burnt tree limb 15ft up. When tight bull stood staring back at me, trying to piece together what was happening.

I had to act fast. My sight was set on 30 yards, which would work, so I quickly readjusted While trying to stay calm, I settled my sight pin on his vitals. But there was one small limb covering his chest. So I raised up on my tiptoes in the tree and picked a spot. It was crunch time. For a bow hunter, this is the most critical moment to master as adrenaline speeds through your body and your heart races. If you can't remain under control, success will be tough if you can. Releasing a perfect arrow is just another part of the process. If you put in the work, you'll crave crunch time because it's your chance to shine. Bend that bow back, anchor in, pick A spot and send a razor sharp broadhead on its way. The arrow flashes toward the bowl and lands home as you knew it would. Because you've lost, worked too hard to fail. After following a short blood trail, you find your bull and respectfully kneel by the amazing animal that gave its life to you. The bull's memory would be celebrated when his antlers eventually adorned your wall and his flesh nourished you. I quickly let an arrow go toward the biggest bull I'd ever seen. I felt confident in the shot on release, confident about the work I put in, confident the arrow was would strike where I'd visualized it would. Perfect.

But that's not what happened. The arrow flew off the mark, hitting the bull high into the right, striking the top of his shoulder blade. A high too far forward shot is about the worst shot you can make on a big bull, since it's high and forward of the lungs, which is where you want the arrow to hit. The bull is protected by heavy muscle and bone, so an arrow that strikes here will typically only wound the bull and not cause death. I felt sick to my stomach as he ran over the ridge with what looked like half my arrow sticking out of his shoulder. How did I blow an opportunity I'd worked my entire adult life preparing for my dream became a nightmare. In the fraction of a second it took my arrow to leave my bow and hit the bull.

That was rough.

That is a savage game right there.

Yeah.

I mean, so it was 30 yards away.

Yeah, just under 30.

I feel like if I needed to, like, place a bet with my own life.

And you hitting a target at 30 yards, I'd feel so comfortable with you taking that shot.

Yeah.

I mean, this is what you do, this is what you live for.

Yep.

And that's what makes this freaking. This game so crazy.

Yeah, it's so tough. I mean, being up in the tree was a different. Had some different factors in it. Having that limb come across where, you know, you don't your air the site that you're looking at, the line of sight you're looking at, your arrow is below that. So trying to figure out where your arrow is and that's gonna cross into your line of sight and then hit the animal.

It's gonna cross into your line of sight, go above your line of sight and drop it. Because I've learned that before where I've hit tree branches that were above my line of sight.

Exactly. So trying to anticipate that because I didn't know that bullshit was going to come underneath me. And then spook and be there and have that limb there. I didn't know any of that was happening. So having to try to calculate all that in the heat of the moment as a bull standing there, you know, nostrils flaring, eyes wide, figuring out, thought it was just going to get jumped on by a lion and how. And I'm like, here's the bull. This is a bull we've been looking for, the tight bull, the 10 by 9, the 400 inches is it. And then you do the best you can. And, and I screwed up. It just, it wasn't my best shot. And with all those factors in there is that. Did I do the best of those, the options? Maybe. But that didn't help us because the arrow was, the arrow ended up going in, breaking off. And then I had 13 inches of arrow that had, had or broke off. There's a little blood on the shaft. So 13 inches. And you know, the last thing you want to do there. When you're getting a once in a lifetime opportunity, it's your first opportunity there to hunt. That country is woundable because on a hunt like that, in any hunt, even at, you know, like where you've been in Utah, if you draw blood, no matter where you hit the animal, that's your animal. So I, if I wound this bull and even if it doesn't die, I'm paying for it. 70 grand.

So you, and you wounded the animal.

I mean, which is the worst? Because I put money aside, I put that much pressure on myself. Anyway, this is what I do. This is what I've geared my whole life for. So I don't, even if it was $1 or 7 million, I wouldn't have any more pressure. It's still like all this, this is my purpose. But the money, when you're thinking about your family and the sacrifices they've made for this, then, then that just makes it worse.

And just so everybody knows, elk are not human beings, obviously. But the reason I say that is because they're so freaking tough.

Yes.

Like you take, you put a 13, you put a broadhead into a human being. 13 inches, they're going to die.

Yeah.

Like anywhere in their torso, they're going to freaking die. Especially with, I mean, maybe if you get them to surgery or something. But elk, there's crazy tough. What they can survive.

Yeah. No, I mean, imagine how tough you would be if you slept outside for 365 days a year on rock and dirt and weather. Yeah. Be pretty, pretty tough.

And then in order to get a girlfriend, you had to freaking go and like ram heads.

Yeah.

Fight like a bunch of other dudes that had giant spears coming out of their head.

Right, right. So it's like they're, they're built for that. They're built to endure whatever an arrow. If it's not perfect. Yeah, it's going to wound them. They're. It's probably gonna, I don't know how they feel pain, but they're gonna, they'll. They can get a long way, they can go a long way, survive a long time.

And they get stabbed with. Yeah, yeah, they get stabbed with antlers. So this is sort of like a bad antler wound. But that's what they deal with. That's what they contend.

Actually. Cleaner, you know, like a broadhead is a cleaner cut and you know, you know how a clean cut can heal.

Right.

You know, so a puncture is, is one of the worst things you can get for an injury. So an antler puncturing. Yeah. I mean they could overcome a point is they could overcome an arrow wound.

And they do all the time.

Yeah. Yeah.

Going back to the book, the tight bull was a regal animal I respected greatly. But I failed to deliver the perfect shot. I up the shot from less than 30 yards. I climbed down the burnt tree and slipped off my boots. With just socks on my feet and not hard soled boots, I could feel the ground better, which would allow me to sneak forward silently and see what kind of blood I had to track. As I followed the sparse blood trail, my fears were confirmed. The bull didn't bleed much at all. A few drops, which is what you'd expect given that shitty shot. Eventually, the light blood trail stopped altogether.

I was devastated. Not only did I let myself down and my family and friends and followers, but I felt like I let the Apache tribe down as well. This bull was so unique and so incredible and I had made a poor shot on him. He deserved better. Now I had to go and tell the head of hunting for the tribe that I had made a poor shot. Kip, Chris and I hiked miles back to the truck. Nobody said much. I shook my head and started at. Stared at the ground, a pit in my stomach.

Yeah, it's a bad feeling, dude.

This is like my hands are sweating right now.

Yeah.

You know, and like I said, I mean, obviously I'm, I'm like a complete amateur in this game, but even when I put myself into your shoes as as much of a perfectionist as you are, and as much as I know you want to, you know, get the good Shot. And then here you are. And that's. That's. That's one thing I could say about, like, being in the camps that I've been in. Everybody knows exactly what just happened. Like, everyone knows there's no hiding.

Yeah. It's just a. You know, you want to make a good shot. You want. You want to do your job, essentially, and your job is to.

Deliver a merciful kill of the target animal. So anything other than doing your job is tough, especially in that circumstance.

Yeah, that was my first opportunity to show, you know, what I was capable of in that environment, in front of that, the tribe, and it didn't feel good.

What a freaking rough game.

Yeah.

Yeah. I remember the first. First time I shot a bull. I shot a shitty shot.

Hit it in the leg, luckily hit an artery. But, you know, Dudley and I tracked it until dark. We still didn't find it. We're walking back. I mean, I just. I feel absolutely, like, horrible, and I feel, like, horrible because I wounded this animal. I feel horrible because I let Dudley down, who, like, invested time and effort into me to. To give me this opportunity to do this.

And on top of that, quite frankly, I didn't even understand that this happened. I didn't. I thought I was, like, the only person that this had ever happened to. And that's why when I got back to camp, yeah. I sat down with you and Dudley and Joe, and we're kind of sitting there eating, and you must have just looked at my face, felt like, you better, like, help me. Well, because you. And you basically told me, like, a couple stories, and you were like, hey, man, you know, like, this happens, you know.

And it does. And, you know, you talk to the guides up there, and it's. You know, there's a decent. It's hard to kill an elk with one shot, and it happens instantly. It's. That's a tough shot.

Yeah. It's like one of those things, though, that.

Nobody wants to talk about, really. But. And it does happen. And it's like, you know, me and Roy, we'd call each other on the phone, and they'd be like, how'd the hunt go? Did you kill? There's only one of two answers. Nobody gives a shit about anything else than yes or no. So in a hunting camp setting like that, yes, it happens, but. But, like, I know how the guides talk and how Just not. Not there specifically, but just anywhere. And it's like, how that would be summed up would be like, you know, cam wounded.

Nobody needs anything else. Doesn't matter. Did you kill? No. You wounded?

Yeah.

That all the you can justify, you can explain doesn't matter.

Yeah.

So it's like just summed up like no matter how how people talk or make you feel better or whatever, it doesn't really help.

And that's why this, this game is, is freaking challenging.

Yeah.

And but here's the thing. That's why it's so rewarding.

Yeah.

You know, and so we I probably sound pretty negative right now because it is hard as hell, but that's what makes it so rewarding.

Yeah.

That's what makes it so, so awesome when you pull it off and you get it done.

So.

Yeah.

Going back to the book here. Before going to bed that night, Kip and I talked about Typo. What do you think the odds are that we're gonna get him? Kip asked. Twenty percent, I said. It's not good, a high shoulder shot on a big bull like that. I up well, he muttered. I had a hard time sleeping, even for a second that night, and it wasn't the first time I've had heartbreak in the mountains. I remember more than once blowing it on a big bull. Times when I should have gotten a kill and screwed it up and it has haunted me. Crushed me.

The next morning we got up and headed out at first light to where I hit the tight bull mark and Dan Stevens, Chris's uncle and cousin, joined us to lend a hand if need be. We all want walk to a ridgeline a mile or more away from where I had shot the bull. As I scanned across the canyon with my optics, I spotted something that I couldn't make out. What am I looking at? I asked the guys by those yellow quaking aspens to the bottom left of them. What am I seeing? That's your bull, chris said. He was bedded. I studied intently through my binos and I didn't see him move.

Is he dead? I asked. Chris Cow called, and right when he did, the bull moved his head.

He's not dead, but he's hurt all right, I told him. Let me go down and get this mess cleaned up. As they stayed there, I made a big circle around to the other side of the canyon where Typo was bedded. It took me over an hour, maybe even two hours as I wasn't taking any chances with the wind and went very wide.

When I was a couple hundred yards from the three quakeys, which were my landmarks, I slipped off my booty and continued on slowly and silently in just my socks. As I neared where tight Bull should Be I looked through my binoculars over to Kip, Mark, Dan, and Chris and saw them motioning with their hands with hand signals from a mile away. They were telling me that the bull was going up the hill. When I neared the quakeys, I spotted him slowly making his way up the hill. He was stoved up, but I needed to get another arrow in him or risk losing him. It was going to take a very long bow shot to make that happen happen, but I got a good range on him and I knew exactly the distance. I already had an arrow knock, so I quickly dialed in my sight and drew back my bowstring, settling my pin on his ribs as he quartered away. He would take a couple extra steps and stop, regather himself and take another couple extra steps. I waited at full draw for him to stop. By this time, I was completely relaxed and felt rock steady. Pulling my bow hard against my back wall of my draw, I cheated the pin up a couple inches on his body as he moved a yard or two further up the hill from when I had ranged him and slowly squeezed the trigger of my release. The arrow arced high, covering the long distance before dropping home, sinking into his ribs as it angled toward the bull's lungs. This time my shot was perfect. I hustled up the mountain as fast as I could in my socks, knocking an arrow as I went. He hadn't gone far from where I had hit him, and though still on his feet, now his head was down.

He was.

He was quite a poke. 92 yards, but I was in kill mode as I came to full draw and released again. The second longbow shot also hit him perfectly. The bow went down and after a few kicks, died quickly. A wave of relief washed over me.

And then you get to him. Sitting beside the dead, tight bull was a bittersweet moment of relief. My mind was conflicted. I had succeeded in achieving my goal, but knowing I had ended the life of a truly majestic animal, to do so brings a hint of melancholy. There was also a solemn sense of pride that comes with knowing once the bull hit the ground, the ending of his life would help sustain me and my family for months. I took a moment to give reverence for the life of the animal I killed. Thanks for the nourishment, beast. Your flesh will fuel me, and your antlers on my wall will ensure your life is honored as long as I live.

Got it done.

Got it done.

And. And you know, there you are the next day, making a shot at 92 yards, another shot at whatever. 94, probably 94, 95 yards. Both perfect shots.

Yeah. I think the first one was. The first one, I think, was actually 107. And then the second one, I had snuck up a little bit, and he didn't go that far. And so he was 92 on the second. But the first one was a little over 100.

Yeah. Just so everybody knows, like, most people want to shoot no further than 50 yards. Yeah. I would say. And I think 40 is really what most people.

Yeah.

Feel very confident in. 50 is out a little bit further. But 107, that's a long shot.

It's a long shot. Yeah. I just wanted to get, you know, I. In my head that animal had suffered all night, and so I wanted to just do what I should have done the first time and just close the deal.

It's an interesting parallel with jiu jitsu. Like, in jiu jitsu, you go and train, and you. You get tapped out by people and you keep coming back. And, like, if you never got tapped out. To me, if I never got tapped out, I would probably not come back as often.

Right.

If bow hunting was easy.

It wouldn't be so rewarding.

Right. It wouldn't be the draw.

Yeah. And it's like, if that. To me, that's the only thing. Only reason I've ever stood out in life. So it's like, I feel this is what I'm supposed to be good at. This is what I'm supposed to do. This is my thing. So to fail.

It'S, like, feels differently to me also. Yeah.

Well, I was going to say that earlier when you were like, well, it's a lot of money, and there's a lot of pressure from, you know, wanting to do the right thing. And I was like, oh, and your campaigns.

Yeah.

You know, like, this is.

You.

You carry. It's like when the Gracie family does Jiu jitsu, right. They're carrying their. Their family name, which is a. Which is kind of a rough thing because. Oh, that's hard when you're. The Gracie family is huge. Oh, man. And there might be some kid that's 14 years old that started training two years ago, but he's part of the Gracie family. So you have, you know. That's your name, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. So it's. They. When they. They were watching from the ridge, you know, where we first saw the bull, and so they said that me making those two shots to kill, it made up for. So that they had. I had already let everybody down. And they're like, okay, well, that got.

Me back to zero.

That got you leveled out again.

Did anybody get video of it?

No, no, not from that far. Nobody had anything. Yeah, we have never really had a camera crew there.

Yeah, the camera crew you were talking about earlier, like, that adds another dynamic when you're doing this stuff. Oh, man, that must really bother you.

Yeah, I mean, I. I don't like honey with anybody.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Even on these guided hunts and they. They already. They all know this, but I don't. I just want to do it, you know, I don't need help. If I screw up, I want it to be me screwing up. But so then. Then when you have a cameraman there, you know, there's always somebody to blame. So the cameraman is like the worst job ever. Because anything, any mistake, it's like, you know, oh, they saw the camera or they heard you or whatever. But when it works out, like I've.

Had camera slash blame guy.

Yeah, exactly. I've had some hunts that I'm so thankful we have footage for sure. You know, but there's that. It's kind of rough waters there for a while. Yeah. Till you get it done.

It is pretty. I mean, I have some good footage from last year.

Yeah.

And Dudley was with me, and Dudley was filming. You know, I'm probably the only person in the world that gets to have John Dudley as my freaking cameraman, but he had already killed and he was like, hey. And you know, he got a freaking good video of the, you know, the end of this. Actually got the set up and everything. And it's. And I'm. I'm real happy and I will say that.

Like.

Like reviewing tape for anything, like any sport.

Yeah.

You know, you can watch and be.

Like, oh, yeah, break it down. Yeah, yeah, no, I know. I remember. I think your shot was it. Was it a little back of the lungs?

Yep.

Like, we're wondering if it was liver.

It was like one lung live, one lung and liver.

Yeah, I remember that. So that's. That is good to know because a lot of times it happens super fast. So being able to have that footage to review can actually help in the recovery.

Right before that, I had shot another bull in Colorado. And that one, I really would have liked to have that on video because I think you can help me with this. So the bowl was at 51 yards and I was on my knees and he was walking, you know, from right to left and quartering away a little bit. I don't know. What's that called? Like a thing away or something like this, you know, so he's not slightly quarterly, slightly quartering. And so he's quartering away. So I thought, okay, I'm going to aim a little bit back.

And then I was waiting for him to stop. He stopped. And so I started let it go. My arrow went. And it was like he took a step.

This is what happened. He was looking at us, so I was waiting for him to look away before I let the arrow go.

Right.

So he started to look away. I started pulling back, let the arrow go. But he wasn't just looking away. He was taking a step.

Yeah.

So I hit him further back than I wanted to. But in reviewing it in my head, I thought, okay, so if I'm going to be aiming at a bull, I should cheat a little bit in the direction that he might take a step. Or is that a bad call? We.

I wouldn't just.

Just go with the stationary.

Yeah. Because you don't know for sure. So you don't want to cheat. Then they don't take a step, and then you, you know, you're like, overthink it almost. Yeah, yeah. It's hard to predict what they're gonna do.

And we. I mean, I did recover that bull and. But, you know, it took a while and it took some expert tracking to find again. I was very lucky. I had Dudley with me and the guide up there helping out.

But, man, they're tough.

Oh, man.

I mean, he went. He went down and up these three hills.

Yeah.

That were not fun. You know what I mean? They're not fun. And he had an arrow freaking sticking in him.

Yeah.

Yeah, It's. Yeah, I think almost. I've seen. You know, I talk about my dad or whatever, but I'm sure you guys know that that will to live is pretty strong, even for humans. We're not as tough as animals, but still, people can really hold on. And it's like when that life is leaving, like, so an animal or I say anything. I've heard even people say, oh, caribou hunting is easy. They die easy. And I'm like, I don't know anything that dies easy. I don't know anything, so. Especially something as tough as a bull elk that's. That's born and bred in the mountains. It's just like their will to live. Just like anything's. Anything that's alive, there's that will to live that is just incredible.

Yeah. And they're freaking. Like when you said bored in the mountains, you see them go up a hill.

Yeah.

It's Insane.

No, they'll. They'll go up and over a ridge. You'll try to do the same thing. It'll take you an hour.

Yeah.

And they do it in minutes. Yeah.

It's freaking crazy to watch.

Yeah. They're. But one thing that humans do have over animals, almost any animal other than maybe a wolf, is endurance. So those bulls can put distance between you and them quickly, but if you can stay on, it's hard finding country that, that would allow this. But that's like in Africa. That's what they do. They stay on these animals and then they get. The animals get exhausted before the humans do. So we, we have, you know, endurance is. That's our. Pretty much our only advantage.

Yeah. And I would caveat that by saying some humans.

Yeah. Maybe not everybody. Maybe not the woke ones.

You got a. Some crazy stories in here. Here's a story with Roy in it. Roy stared in the face, in danger, in the face of danger, and didn't blink. This happened during brown bear hunt. We had gone on earlier in July that year. We'd had a big snow, a big sow brown bear that turned into a problem. She saw us from about 130 yards away and started running full speed right at us. Roy readied his three. His dot three five seven.

Gonna get some. That he'd brought as backup.

And I knocked an arrow. Not sure what an arrow would do to a charging brown bear, but that's all I had.

Does that say 357 or 375?

Says 375.

Oh, 375. No, that's right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Now 357. I was like, well, that'd be a pistol. I was like, I hope that doesn't. 357. 375.

375.

Yeah. That's a magnum. That's what he had. That's a brown bear gun.

He's.

Roy said, if she gets to our side of the creek, I'm going to have to shoot her. She crossed the creek without hesitation and ran toward us. At about 20 yards, she stopped and stood up aggressively, huffing and staring us down, head rocking side to side. We were standing in the wide open in knee high grass, so there was no mistaking we were humans. We were giving her a chance to make a better decision since we didn't want to kill her unless we absolutely had to. Get out of here. We hollered. It didn't matter. The brown bear dropped down and with deadly intentions and ears pinned back, she charged. Roy fired one shot. And stoned her at close range mere feet from us. I couldn't help uttering a loud and inappropriate cuss word. I was mad that we had to kill another beer bear. I had killed a nice boar already and we were on a high after that awesome success and sweet footage of my perfect bow shot. Now we had killed. Now we had had another killed, which we didn't want despite the fact that we were in grave danger. That aspect never even entered our minds. After I cussed mad, shaking my head, Roy said, matter of fact, dude, I had to. I replied, I know, it just sucks. A typical response might have been, oh my God, we could have been killed. Are you okay? I'm shaking. But I knew I had a partner. But I knew the partner I had in Roy. He shared the same type of confidence I had. He was never rattled and always in control. I knew in 10 lifetimes I'd never find another partner like Ro.

Good times.

Yeah, that was, that was a bummer. She had these full grown cubs with her, so they'll stick around sometimes they don't need to be with the sow, but they hang around for a while before they split off. So she had those with her. And I don't know what it was, but she, I shot this boar and she had heard something. I think maybe when the arrow hit him, he made a noise. And because she had her those full grown cubs and it was a boar. Bores will kill cubs. And so she heard that noise, didn't know what, so she came over and then smelled blood from my bear, tracked that blood all the way out to where he died and started tearing him up. She was, he, she was attacking him and hair and stuff was going everywhere and I'm like, I go, dude, she's tearing up my bear. And so we're yelling at her and I go, I said, shoot out there. Not, not to shoot her, but just shoot out there, spooker. So he shoots nothing. And she didn't pay attention. Then she turned and looked and she saw us and we're about 130 yards away. And she just came, just sprinting. And it's like a bear, a big brown bear, like sprinting through the grass at you.

It's just like, oh God, you're knocking up an arrow.

Yeah. I'm like, I know what I, what I'll do, but. And so we didn't want to kill her at all. And it was just like the biggest downer. And even when I was in this video, I think it's still on YouTube, but I'm sitting there with the, with the boar I killed. And Roy's in the background, he's like looking because those full grown cubs, they're still £400. They're not really cubs, they're, they're yearlings. But they're, they're back and forth and he's looking at him, he's just shaking his head because it was just, you know, they obviously were going to survive. They were old enough to survive, but it was just a downer. We're not trying to kill a sow, you know. And we ended up calling fishing game on the satellite phone saying what happened, which happens a lot up there.

That's.

It's called defensive life and property. You can kill bear if your life's at risk. And we had to skin it out and take it back in and do the paperwork and do all that. So we did all that. But it, it's not that it was, you know, legal or anything like that. It was all this, all legal, but it's just. We just didn't want to have to kill another bear. But yeah, we were in those situations quite often which happens, you know, they, they say we have a greater chance of who knows what, getting struck by lightning than being attacked by a grizzly. Not if you're hunting grizzly all the time. If you're hunting grizzly all the time, it's like 75% chance you're gonna get attacked. So we were used to it but it's still, you know, it's pretty intense.

Yeah, the, the bears.

They'Re kind, their bears are psycho. Is that, is that, is that a accurate statement?

Yeah, grizzlies have a different. That's a brown bear which is a, you know, a grizzly too. But so I would, I killed another bear up there. There's a limit. There's so many brown bear you can, a non resident can kill too. But we had this bait set up which was legal this year that, that we were hunting is 2015. And the, the black bear would come in and they would just be pretty docile, not wound up at all, pretty relaxed. Then a brown. Like the big boar that I killed, the brown bear. Not, not that one described there, but a different one. It would come in and it would just be rocking back and forth. 4 Just like kind of like possessed. And it looked like a dinosaur because it was nine foot six tall. You know, it's just a. But on all fours so it looked really tall and rocking and just like scanning all around. You're just like, oh my God. This thing is insane. Yeah.

They seem like psychos.

Yeah. Yeah.

And they kill their babies. And they.

Aggressive.

So hostile.

Yep.

And they're freaking huge.

And so strong.

All right, I'm gonna fast forward a little bit. I was in Colorado bow hunting with Kip folks and Mark Womack. I spotted and stalked a big Colorado whitetail. I hustled toward the buck as quietly as possible. He saw something a few times, but I was staying pretty low, crawling mostly. We figured he thought it was another buck. So while I closed in on him, he started coming my way. He came pretty fast, licking his lips. And even stopped to make a scrap in the sage brush. At 60 yards, he started to skirt me a bit, so I figured it was time. The shop felt good, but it was a touch low and he was quartered to a tiny bit. I felt it was good enough to kill him, so Mark and I backed out, planning to come back at first light to recover him. That night before. Before bed, we reviewed the footage and concluded dead buck looked like the liver. But you never know. I climbed into my bed that night with excitement and belief that we would find the buck in the morning. Sleep wouldn't come. However, at 11pm, my cell phone rang. It was Trace. Roy's been in an accident. She told me. She didn't know all the details about what had happened, so I knew I needed to call Jill, Roy's wife. I phoned her and asked what was going on. After a long pause, Jill said, cam, Roy's not coming home. Jill's voice sounded soft and tired. I asked, what do you mean? She said, he fell. He passed away.

My stomach dropped and the darkness of the old farmhouse kitchen. I stood in there in the middle of nowhere. Colorado, felt darker and lonely. I couldn't believe her words. Right away. I thought of their children. Taylor and Justin and Ellen. Roy had fallen 700ft from a cliff in the nasty country we hunted sheep in.

He was on Pioneer Peak, the exact same mountain where I had killed my ram in 2008 and where Roy had killed rams since. Now, in 2015.

The mountain had won.

In this. This chapter of the book is called Legends Never Die.

Yeah, I have a hard time even thinking about this. Still, without getting choked up.

I just. You know, there's people that. That come into your life that I don't know. He's just one of those guys who always believed in me. And we had.

You know, it's like a bond. You go through hard things with people and. I know it's. I can imagine. It's like this with the military where you have. It's like a brotherhood, you know, because of what you've went through. And so that's how it was with. With Roy and I in that. In that regard.

So. Yeah.

I don't know. We had a lot of big plans. A lot of things were going good for us that we talked about and dreamed about for our whole lives. You know, he's becoming an outfitter up there. He's like a legend up there. People would talk about Roy and Alaska. It's hard to be legend, a legend in Alaska. There's a lot of. A lot of legendary people, but he was earning that name. And so, yeah, it felt.

I don't know, it still feels. I mean, I'm still upset about it. Still mad because, you know, we had so much left to do.

Yeah, I know a lot of times you'll. You'll post pictures of him and whatnot. And, you know, it reminds me, you know, you're talking about the military aspect of things. And, I mean, I still post pictures of my friends that. That I've lost. And I can tell by what you write that he still is pushing you, even though he's not here. And, you know, you can go a little bit further and you can be a little bit more Roy tough as. As you. You put some of those things and not the same thing I think about, you know, the same thing. Hey, I mean, I got guys that died when they were way too young. Way too young.

Yeah.

And they don't have the opportunity to carry on. And the opportunity that. To do the things that I get to do right now. And even if that thing is just getting up in the morning and going for a workout, like, that's a gift, you know.

Well, I. I wouldn't. Roy started me with bow hunting. I mean, I wouldn't be here. It's like, normally after I would do something like this, I would call Roy and we, you know, this is. This is all part of our thing. Our. We did it. And, you know, that's. That's a reason why. I mean, I picked that picture on the COVID of the book. That's from our last hunt, and it was a moose hunt two weeks before he died. And.

You know, I mean, it's just. You got to get by. You got to, you know, if you want to. They say it might be cliche, but, you know, people die twice when they. When their life ends. And then the last time somebody mentions their name. And so just like, you bring up the guys that, you know, that you've lost.

I'm always gonna honor Roy. I'm doing it right now. This is what I'm doing. I'm doing it in the book because without him, I wouldn't be here. And so, I mean, I.

Yeah, it's just. It's tough. I mean, I still. Jill. I'm still in contact with Jill all the time. And.

Yeah, just, I don't know, life changing.

Yeah.

And again, you put so many cool stories and details about all that. That is another reason just to get the book and learn some of those things and keep saying that name.

I wanted to close out. Obviously, I'm not reading the whole book, but I just wanted to close out with one section here.

Towards the end of the book, you say, many years ago, I decided I was going to work hard every day on being the very best bow hunter I could be, along with taking care of my family. That is my purpose in life. Everything I do is prioritized around this drive and this dream. I start at 5am and finish at 8pm every day. I give it my best. I have gratitude for the gifts and opportunities I am given. I enjoy the journey.

Journey.

Steve Prefontaine was right. To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift. That's exactly how I look at it. Bow hunting can be a struggle. It's hard and very competitive. It can be very cutthroat. But so can life. Life can be tough and beat us down. We experience loss. A loved one or a family member or a job or a dream. We battle our own demons and dependencies. We all take hits and get beaten down.

That's when we have choices to make. Only you can choose not to hesitate. Only you can keep moving. Only you can climb over snow and ice and tough footing and steep, rugged country.

What dream do you hold that you're not going to let go of? If I can do it, anyone can. But you will have to earn it. You will have to endure. You will have to keep hammering.

So again, if you're listening to this, get the book.

Let's make this thing a freaking bestseller.

Just to spite the people that don't want this book to be a bestseller.

So many things. And there's, like I said, there's a bunch of things that I didn't cover in here. And as you've said about the book, and it clearly isn't, it's not just about bow hunting. It's not just about bow hunting at all. It's about life. And it's going to do a ton of things to Help people.

Get through whatever they're getting through and be on the right path in their lives. Some of the things we didn't cover in this book, I just wanted to keep hammering. So you. According to the book, and you do talk about this, but Bob Fromm, who's a San Diego kind of legend, Archery guy, Hunter, he runs performance archery here in San Diego. And he used to call you Cam the Hammer. Is that where that originated from?

Yeah, you know Bob. Yeah, yeah. You know how he's charismatic and always just talking is like kind of cool. So he'd say, you know, call me and say, hey, what's up, Cam the Hammer? So just him, he was kind of a legend to me too. You know, he was on a magazine called Western Bowhunter, and he seemed like he was on the COVID all the time. And so he made bow hunting. Cool surfer. Yep. I was gonna say longer hair, kind of good looking guy. He's like pretty badass.

And then you got a section in there. Rogan. Talking about Rogan.

How'd you. How'd you meet Rogan? Originally on a.

He sent out a tweet. So I went and did his podcast in 2014, and then I took him a bow. And if you know him, it's like once he gets into something, it's all the way right.

Watch out.

So then I said, well, let's go. Let's do a hunt. And a good first hunt is a bear hunt because it's usually close. And I, I could, I could, you know, be there with them.

And I don't know if I agree with that, bro.

Yeah, well, it's just the, the shot distance isn't less can go wrong. It's adrenaline. Yeah.

I don't know. There's really one major thing that can go wrong, dude.

Well, that's. Yeah, that's with the tracking and the wounding and all that. But if you do things right, it can be pretty high percentage of chance of success. So I thought, let's go on a. On a bear hunt. And it's funny, he killed a bear. We got a picture of it. And I remember we were up there and I'm like, I go, hey, I put up a. Posted a picture of you and your. And your bear. And he's like, yeah, I know. I've heard, heard all about it already. Because it's like bear. And then if you're like a celebrity type and then killing a bear, it's like, I thought people think they're endangered, you know, because.

No, people think they're Winnie the The poo.

Or endangered or both. And so, yeah, he was kind of, you know, that's where he really was. The point was driven home about hunting and animals. And there's a negative connotation with it, obviously. People who don't do it or don't understand it anyway. So that was in 2014. Yeah.

And you. That's another part of the book that we didn't really talk about. I mean, you explain all that stuff. You explain how hunting works and how conservation works and how animal management works. And if you just let these animals go, like, there's some species that'll get completely wiped out and that'll off balance everything. So all the stuff is so tightly controlled. Yeah. That it's actually what keeps the environment in balance.

Well, I saw this. Very popular. He's like kind of an animal rights activist. He's got millions of followers. He posted this video of this leopard attacking a man in kind of like a city. Right. And he said, he goes, see, this is what happens when humans encroach on animals. Animal like habitat. That's what he said. And I'm like, well, no shit.

That's what we do everywhere. That's why animal numbers need to be managed, because that's. That's what cities are. There used to be animals here, now there's a city. So as a city grows, we're encroaching. So you can't have the same amount of animals that were here, you know, 20 years ago if there's less habitat. So that's where that whole balance and the biology and the carrying capacity of the land come in. But, yeah, it's in hunting funds. All that. That's the key point with. There's kind of a catchphrase. Hunting is conservation. Well, it's just because hunting pays for that habitat enhancement and the studies and the welfare of animals.

Yeah. And Joe wrote the forward to this book, which is awesome. Did a great job with that. And, you know, like, I guess people sometimes, I guess they might get jealous of Joe Rogan because he's got so much.

Popularity, but, man, he's good at shit. Like you were just saying, like, he's freaking good at archery. He's good people. Like, you know, what do you really know about fighting? Dude, that guy fought. That guy's a black belt in jiu jitsu.

I know.

And then they think that doing a podcast is easy.

Oh, man.

And doing the way he does a podcast is easy. Talking to people off the top of his head for 2, 3, 4, 5 hours like crazy.

No I listen to a lot of shitty podcasts that those people think podcasting is easy. But Joe does make it seem.

He does.

That's so. It's so hard to make a conversation interesting. And you know, the first time I went on there, I'm like, so do you have a questions or. He's like, no, no, he's. Oh, we're just gonna. Just gonna bullshit. Most of time if guys just sit down just to. It's gonna be awful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And people think that other people want to hear you. Yeah, well, if I want to do that, just go to a restaurant and sit in the booth next to you and listen you talk about freaking what you're going to get grocery shopping today.

Right.

Because.

Or usually it's about some kids T ball coach who Timmy should be playing more starting. But it's just whatever.

How long was it between when you got him a bow and he went hunting for a bear?

I think, I mean, a few months probably, right? Yeah. I can't remember when I went down there, but we went spring bear hunting, so it was about this time of year in 2014, I believe. Yeah, I can't remember but a few months. You know, he was confident in shooting, you know, because he probably did it 20 hours a day because he's pretty obsessive.

And now we're actually kind of unified now in a way because we got you, Joe, Kip, me, Pete Roberts, with this new venture, Origin Hunt. Yeah, Making American made hunting gear clothing.

That's a kind of big step for you going into founding a company and moving in that direction. How's that feel?

Feels incredible. I still feel like the small town guy making $4.72 an hour working part time at a warehouse. And now you say founding a company. It's just again, this is all, all this journey and the whole point to all this, I think in the book and everything else in my story, is that just staying, staying on the path. Staying on the path. And over time, who knows what's going to happen. You couldn't have told me back when I was a kid getting drunk and punched at parties because I got a. I'm a smart ass that. Do you know someday you're going to be doing this? I'd be like, you got to be talking about somebody else because there's no way. So it seems surreal. But you know, you make these relationships in these decisions and you keep working and working and working. And after 30 some years like this, how this journey has been, who knows what's going to happen? And I, I was thinking about this yesterday as I ran on the beach. I saw this kid down there fishing, you know, and I'm like, what if this kid, like, I couldn't imagine if I lived here, would I, what would I do? How would I have stood out in anything? I don't know. But may. I was wondering, what if that kid, he's down here fishing by himself and, you know, made the decision to come down on a Saturday morning and hey, let's see what I can do? What if that's going to lead him. Maybe he's going to be the most well known fisherman in the world at some point, but you can't tell from a glimpse into, you know, when you're, when you're young, you don't know what your life's going to hold. You don't know. You know, then you have kids and you want them to be special in their own right. And this, all, this journey, that's all the book is about. It's just like, you know, stay true to yourself, keep working hard, endure. And who knows, next thing you know.

You'Ll have your own line of hunting gear.

How exciting is that? I mean, you see the, you see the, how fired up people are.

Oh, yeah, Yeah.

I mean, it's amazing.

Excited about it and. Because I've been saying, and as I've said every time I talk about this, there's no more patriotic group of people than hunters. And hunters don't want to buy stuff that's not made in America.

Yeah.

And they don't really have many options right now. And they're about to have options.

I mean, I think if anybody could be half as excited as Kip is, that'd be a pretty damn good start. He's like, going through, he's always, you know, loves the videos of trying this stuff on and bending over, talking about the cuts and it's just like. And this guy has, I don't know how much money. A lot of money.

Yeah.

From when Under Armour went public. And he doesn't have to do this. So it's like, you know, it's just passion and it's, it's what he loves. Yep. And so how could you not be excited for that? And.

Yeah. And he doesn't have to do this. And originally he reached out to Pete just because he saw what we were doing with Origin. He saw that we were just making freaking geese. Jiu Jitsu geese in America. And thought that was cool. And probably. Probably also thought, man, I better help these jackasses out. Maybe so because he's, I mean, he has grown up doing that.

Yeah.

Literally from college on. And I mean, when he rattles off kind of the stats of like, you know, I opened 38 factory, you know, like his. I forget what the numbers are, but, yeah, it's an incredible. I mean, think about how big of a company Under Armour is.

Right.

And he was, he was running that on the backside for all those years and built it. So he's definitely been a huge help to Pete. Pete Roberts is the other owner who. He's like the manufacturer from our team, you know, and he's done an incredible job of build something from the ground up as well. And so this, we. So we kind of had the ingredients. Well, let me rephrase that. We had some of the ingredients. Right. We had, we had Pete, who knew how to make stuff in America. Right. That's part of the ingredients. We knew I could get the word out about it. Kip has the, the actual experience to get it done and the design experience. But, you know, we needed somebody that was legit, that actually could say, this is what we need. This is how it needs to work. And who else, you know, why not just, why not just throw a freaking. A 200 yard archery shot out, See if we get a bullseye. We pulled it off.

Well, it's, I mean, it's an honor to be involved for sure. Because it's, it gives me so much pride just to know and we're doing something that could make a difference. You know, it's like that's, that's our whole point of life is what are you doing that's going to make a positive difference? And I feel like this is, you know, it's causing a ripple effect and, you know, bringing those videos, it's like, it's like I saw one the other day, Origin put up, and I think it was. Is it Dax? And talking about, you know, he feels like he's just a small part of the machine, but talking about bringing American manufacture or manufacturing back to America, it's, it reminds me, I watch this old series called the Men who Built America. Have you watched it?

I have watched a few of those.

Right. So it reminds me of that. It's like that, that type of effort and that vision starts there.

Yeah.

And it's, it's when I see those factories and the working and the, and the workers and the people and the pride in it and the, and.

People like Dax, it's like.

I don't know, it gives you butterflies almost. It's special.

Yeah. It really is. And it's.

To Pete's credit. Pete got told this was impossible five years ago. There's no way we can manufacture geese in America. He got told that, like, everyone kind of, kind of looked at him like he was kind of crazy. And maybe they were right.

Yeah.

And maybe Pete is a little bit crazy.

Yeah.

But, you know, just like you did with archery, he just kept at it and kept trying to figure out, oh, how do you overcome this obstacle? What do you do in this situation? How do we get by that? And he, he built a great foundation and has great knowledge. And then you throw someone like Kip into the mix, who's done all that and taken it to the next level, because, you know, Pete's a humble guy. He's not sitting around thinking he has all the answers. And so when you throw someone like Kip into the mix, who does have, he might not have all the answers, but he's got a lot of them. You know, from, from the business side, from the manufacturing side, from the design side, he's got like a incredible amount of experience. So that's awesome. And then having you to give your guidance, which is really what everything's based on, it's like, what does this guy, one of the premier bow hunters in the world, what does this guy think this should be like?

Then let. Then we have, then we have something special.

Yeah, it's. Well, don't you think that that like you mentioned Pete and being humble, don't you think that that's a key ingredient to, like, businesses like this is that ego? I see ego killing so many great opportunities. So the fact that he's humble and like, and says he doesn't, he probably has a lot of the answers. But just being open to hearing somebody else, it's so paramount to a successful business. Ego kills so much that could have been special. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, obviously I have a leadership consulting company and when people, people always ask, well, what's, you know, what's the main problem that you see? And it is. The main problem that we see is ego. You know, I don't want to listen to your plan because I think my plan is better than yours. And I don't even want to hear your plan because I think my plan is better than yours. That's just all ego.

Yeah.

And to just be able to say, hey, you know what, Cam, I think let's try your idea. That sounds like it's actually. Sounds like it's better than mine. Let's go with that. To have that open mindedness is what brings on. It is what brings on success. I mean, it's just like anything else. But, you know, if you're doing jiu jitsu and you're like, hey, I already. I already know how to do an arm lock. I guarantee you get on the mat with Dean Lister or Jeff Glover, they're gonna be like, they're gonna be able to teach you something about that arm lock that you did not know. This is a move I've done a thousand times. I've done it 10,000 times, maybe even a hundred thousand times. But if Dean or Jeff or someone that's an expert goes, hey, you should move your hips a little bit more over here. You should hold the wrist like this, you're going to learn every time with. With bow hunting. You go, oh, how do you think we should do this? What can I. Well, even more important, you know, when's the last time you said, you know what? I'll be good, My shots will hit. I shoot enough. I don't need to shoot today. That's a lack of humility.

Yeah, Never. That never happened. But I think it's. I do want to say. I mean, having you say those nice things about me is, like. Seems surreal to me. I think the key part is, like, you say you have this consulting business, but you actually.

You live it. It's not like you're just. I know a lot of people who teach who don't follow that same principle. Right. So I think that because Origin has been set up with this approach about, maybe your idea is better. Maybe I need to listen to this. Maybe you need know, whatever. Just being collaborative and it's. I mean, this is what happens. This is the kind of excitement that's generated in the. And the potential that's there with the right attitude and the key pieces in place. But, you know, you see it. I see the key pieces in place, and they don't work. They don't work because that. There's. Whatever, I guess ego or there's who knows what.

Yeah. Well, you. You. The term I use, you have to be able to subordinate your ego, which means you actually have to be able to say, you know what, Pete, you will go with that. That. Let's go with that. I'm good. And not be like, well, actually, I want to do it my way.

Yeah.

And here's the thing. If my way is better, then I should be able to articulate that.

Right.

In a way that you go, yeah, you know what? That would actually make sense. Yep. That. Yeah. I can't Argue with that.

Cool.

Let's go forward. And that's what you need to do. Ideas shouldn't be driven by ego. They should be driven by what's the best idea.

Right.

That's how you make things work. And that's how we're gonna make the best freaking hunting gear in the world. And we're making it right here in America. And we're gonna bring back jobs and we teach people skills. That's what's. That's what's amazing is we are. We have a whole group of people that now have a legitimate skill and they have a career. Some of the people that work for us.

They already knew this skill, but now they're able to use it again because a lot of the factories went overseas. Now they're able to use it again. Some of these younger folks, they're learning it right now. I mean, we got a kid that knows how to make, how to weave material. It was a lost art, and he grabbed it from the last guy that really knew how to do it, Lenny, who actually died. But that skill's been captured now. And now you got somebody that's gonna. That has a freaking awesome skill and contributing to the world and contributing to the economy and contributing to the community and contributing to America. Like what? How awesome is that?

Yeah, it's incredible.

All right.

Your family. Just real quick, I just want to give props to your wife.

Credit. I feel like sometimes my wife, you know, my wife. My wife married me when. Or met me when I was an E4 in the Navy. Mm. I always tell her she married me for my money.

I think I was making like $22,000 a year or something like that when she met me.

Yeah. No prenup.

No prenup. Yeah.

She.

She didn't want half of that.

She would have been better off forgetting obvious. So props to her. And then. True it. I met your son Truett a few times. Seems like a stud.

Yeah, I know.

He. I know he broke Goggins pull up record.

He did, yeah.

Has Goggins come back on that yet?

He hasn't, no. That's a tough one because I. It even took Goggins three times to get it.

Yeah.

You know, so it's like your body. You might want to. To do it.

Your.

Doesn't mean your body's going to hold up. That's a tough one with those little, you know, your. Your grip and your forearms, small muscles and your.

And your hands just getting trashed.

Yeah.

Which people ask that about SEAL training. They're like, it's all mental. And I'm like, well, not really. Because no matter how bad you want to be able to do that rope climb and I always use rope climb because. Rope climb.

Yeah.

Rope climb is. There's no gutting through a rope climb.

Right.

Like you can gut through, you can, you can gut through much more of a rucksack march. Like part of that. Oh, Cook, you can have, you can, you can have like a heat stroke and fall out. Yeah. But a lot of that is just.

Like gut through it. Yeah.

You can gut through boats on your head.

Right.

Like you put the boats on your head during Hell week. That's just a gut check. There's no. If you, if you are a 19 year old American male, you can, you can withstand and you can perform the physical activity of boats on your head running around.

But a rope climb.

Yeah.

Your mind will not get you to the top of that freaking rope. Only your body will. So you, you're out there like, oh, it's a mental game.

Yeah.

Yeah, cool. Climb that rope then. I really want to climb that rope. But if you can't do it, all the mental strength in the world isn't going to get you up that rope.

And then, and then True got lucky that his body cooperated that day. That one day he chose. So this is like. Yeah. Anyway. But he did it.

Yeah. What is it? 4200, 4100. 4100. Yeah.

Goggins had done 4032. Yeah. But he was supportive the whole time. Oh yeah, he, he was good. He, you know, he, he met True, so he was, he's good with it.

It's always whenever you see somebody pushing harder, you know, like people say in Jiu jitsu, look, I'm going to get you one day. To me I'm like, I hope so.

Yeah.

And Jiu Jitsu works.

Yeah.

If you work hard, that's what happens.

Get rewarded.

Yeah. Not going to be mad at someone because they freaking. I'm actually going to be stoked.

Yeah.

I'm going to go train harder, train more. That's the way it works. And then your other son is in the army.

Yes.

A Ranger. Rangers. Did they make the connection while like he was going through. Did they figure out who he was, that you were his dad or was some of them.

He wanted to be like low pro. Yeah. Just like blend in. Don't stand out for any reason. Don't get any extra attention.

Don't.

Nobody needs to know when your birthday is. Obviously that's like the worst thing in the Military, it seems like, is if people know your birthday, so. Yeah.

And then you got one more daughter in high school.

Yeah. She's graduating this year.

She's senior. Right on. Awesome.

Echo.

Yes.

You got any questions?

I do, actually. How much does it.

Are you ready to be a bow hunter?

Yeah, I am. Oh, actually, let me ask this.

Wait, did I. Did I go too hard in the paint on. Bow hunting is hard because it's hard.

No. No.

Okay. But it's challenging, but it's rewarding. Did that.

It seems accurate from my position, which is very limited, by the way, as we all know. So that really reminds me of a quick question. So you know how, like, let's say a guy that I know has a crossbow. Are bow hunters and crossbows or crossbow guys kind of at odds a little bit?

Crossbow isn't bow hunting, so.

Yes, then. So if I said hypothetically, that I have a crossbow, would you be kind of mad at me? Would you be like. Would I be, like, one notch lower?

Yes.

Okay, I understand. That was a hypothetical.

Okay.

And how much does an arrow weigh? Or is. Do they vary or whatever?

Yeah, my arrow weighs 540 grains. Okay.

So there's gr. Okay.

Yeah. Just like bullet.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then the tips, you can. You know what?

Yeah.

Change them.

Yeah. Those can be from 100 grains or even smaller to up to 200 grains.

And then you have what, like the different. Like a broadhead arrow?

Yeah.

What is that? Like, the three blades? Right. They're like blades on there.

Yeah, that's a broadhead. Yeah.

And then what other kind do you use? Or is that even a thing?

Well, there's. There's a field tip that you practice with, so it has no blades. And then there's an expandable broadhead, which means it flies with the blades sucked in, and then when it hits something, the blades come out. They expand out to cut a bigger hole. And then there's a fixed blade broadhead, which is what I shoot, where the blades are just out the whole time.

And is that, like, what. Just the t. Typical ones, or is there like, a vat. You know how, like, in bullets.

Yeah, there's all kind. You can get all kinds of broadheads.

A lot of people are. A lot of. Normally people don't use expandables for elk. Some people do, and they work. I've. For one reason, in Oregon, fixed blade broadheads were the only thing that were legal until, like, a year or two ago. So that's all I've ever used. And expandables can cause Problems if they hit heavy bone. Like that tight bowl story with expandable. I wouldn't have got that bowl. The. The. My arrow wouldn't have went in 13 inches. I wouldn't have been able to get another arrow in it the next day. So I would have lost that bowl with an expandable.

And expandables also can hit. If you hit like a. Maybe like a twig, which is already. Like, you. You already got problems if you hit a twig.

Yeah.

Or something. But it can open. Open those things up maybe early and now.

Yeah.

Like, you can have more problems too.

Yeah.

But the expandable cut a big hole can open a big hole. Like, big.

So we got field tip expandable and then fixed blade. So is there like, exotic. Okay, so let's say.

I know what you're saying. He wants to know if there's like.

No, he wants to know if there's.

Designer broadhead heads or. Or what.

Or whatever.

Rambo. Do you remember?

That's what I was gonna say. Like, you got the explosive, you got the, you know, all these other ones or whatever. Like, is it like that with arrows or what?

You know, there hasn't been an explosive. I. I've done some.

There has to be.

Excuse. No, I did.

I refused my whole life.

There's a guy, Richard Ryan, and he used to. He might have been an original investor or. I don't. I can't remember. Anyway, he was part of Black Rifle for a while and he. We did some trick filming with. With archery and bow shots and different things. Like, I shot. I. I shot cheese off a mousetrap that he was holding. Okay. So we're trying to see if I could get the cheese off of it before the mousetrap got my arrow. So he held it and I shot it. But another one he did was we put propane flame that shot up and then a paint can behind it. So the arrow would go through the propane flame, pull the flame, and then puncture the paint can. Then it explode and it's like a huge explosion. So I made a joke that it was like I shooting a Rambo broadhead. But there hasn't been a Rambo broadhead yet. Like in. I think it's Rambo. To one of the greatest films of all time.

Yes, sir.

Yes.

But there has been one where they're shooting is like a.357 shell casing or shell on the end of an arrow. And it would like. I think they killed some hogs with it. Like, it hit the hog and then.

Fire the primer yeah. Huh.

I've never used one, but that's as close as we got to Rambo.

I could see where since I know Echo pretty well, I can see he's got all kinds. Like, he wants to have a. A selection of the party designer broadheads ones.

Yes, sir. So there's no twisty one. You know, like, I figure that would be a thing.

The broadheads I use, actually, the blades come off at an angle, and I think it enhances because when an arrow flies, for it to be accurate, there has to be helical on it, just like rifling on a barrel. So that's what gives that direction. Just like a. So a muzzle loader, if it's just a ball isn't very accurate, but that twist. So same thing with an arrow, same principle. The fletch on the back of the arrow is what gives direction to that arrow. Well, my broadheads come off at an angle, and I think it enhances. So when it hits an animal, it's twisting as it cuts. And I think it cuts a more devastating wound channel because it's going like that. So it cuts a hole instead of just sleep.

You gonna get some things for your crossbow, bro.

All right. I'm gonna look deeper into this stuff. Yeah, right.

Right on.

I like it.

Cam, any closing thoughts? Anything we missed?

Like I said, it's an honor to be here. I mean, I've. I don't feel worthy of sitting with you guys. Honestly.

This is. I never thought I'd be here. I never thought I'd be here talking to you guys. You guys are larger than life for me and for a lot of others. We actually had this training at work not long ago, and the trainer mentioned this Navy SEAL Jocko, and he's like. And I was just like, God dang. I know.

Jocko.

So, yeah, this seems. You know, I used to real earlier, but it does. It feels. Feels. I don't know. I'm just. I'm honored to be here. I'm honored that you looked at my book and you actually gave me advice when I was selecting a publisher.

That's right. Because you use the same publisher as me.

Same publisher. St. Martin's and so you gave me some great advice there, and you've been a resource, and now we're partners, and it's. Doesn't feel like my life, but thank you.

Well, right on, man. I. As I mentioned earlier, I feel the same way. Like, here I am talking with the freaking world. World class dude, and. And it's just awesome. So thanks for Coming on. Thanks for sharing your lessons learned and. And thanks for your encouragement to me and so many other people. Like, there's so many other people. I. I know that you inspire so many people to get on the path of bow hunting, but not just to get on the path of bow hunting, just to get on a better path in their life. And I think this book is going to do that even more. And as you said, it's an honor to be working with you, partnered with you, and to. To take, you know, this thing is, you know, talk to Kip, talk to Pete. I can feel it. This is like a rocket. It's like a rocket. You can watch the fuse. It's burning right now. September's coming. We're testing product. Like, we're ready to watch this thing go Richter. So thanks for what you do, and thanks for inspiring people all over the world. Thank you to keep hammering.

Thank you, guys. I appreciate it.

Right on.

And with that, Cameron Haynes has left the building. Echo. Charles.

Yeah.

Are you ready to become a bow hunter?

I think so. Yeah.

Not a crossbow hunter.

No, no, no. So, yeah. So the.

I was trying to think of crossbow hunting versus bow hunting, and I was trying to think of what a good example would be.

I kind of landed on surfing versus bodyboarding.

Maybe that makes sense to me.

No. No disrespect to bodyboarding.

But something along those lines a little bit were.

That makes.

Let's face it, let's face it. It takes more skill to surf than bodyboard. Fundamentally. Sure. Again, no disrespect to the spongers at the highest level out there getting after it.

The fact is. I don't know, but it seems that that's the case.

Yeah.

So even like. Yeah, okay. So I know a guy with a crossbow, and he let me shoot it from time to time. And I have shot a boat bow before.

When did you shoot a bow?

Well, actually, the last time I did was about a week ago.

Where?

At Greg Train's house.

Oh, that's right. Greg Trains on that.

Yeah.

His was little. Like, his arms are a little shorter than mine, so it's like. It wasn't, but then I shot one at the Origin camp. One of the guys had one. Yeah.

Okay.

And I dig it. I'm with it, man. I made a bullseye too, by the way. But it's neither here nor there.

Okay.

Just naturally skilled like that.

So then why'd you buy a crossbow?

The guy I know has had the crossbow from before. Either way. Yes. The bow seemed. Or has a lot more going on for sure. So I can dig how you'd say that. It's not. I was gonna think a GI versus no gi, but it's not that because no gi. They're both.

They're both highly respected. Yes.

Respected and difficult. And there's a lot to both of them, regardless of perception.

Okay, I found it. I think I found it. Skateboarding versus scooters. Scooters, like the two wheel.

So that's what your crossbow is. You're on a razor scooter taking up room in the half pipe.

Yeah, yeah.

That's what's going on. Did I make. And I asked you this during the podcast, but it's so hard. Bow hunting is so hard. I hope I didn't discourage anyone from trying it and doing it, but you got to recognize there's a lot going on. Man. This is not an easy game to play. Oh, yeah, it's freaking hard.

Oh, it's real hard, actually. And you know, like, even that. That opening that you opened with, like, it made me physically feel probably a good element of how hard it is because I remember back, you know, like when I'm thinking, okay, the first time I ever shot a bow, I'm like, okay, this is like, dude, I got to pay attention to all this stuff. And then I gotta aim in a certain way and I like all this stuff. And then that's just my. There's probably not to mention, like the 1,000 things that I don't know about. And then you want to mix that with actually going out and doing it.

With any animal, Any animal. It's. It's. It's crazy. And then you gotta learn about all these different animals because they all act different, by the way. Like, a bear does this and a elk does that and deer does something else. Like, they all have different reactions, they all different senses. So. And then you gotta, like I said that once you shoot that animal, then you gotta go find that thing if you got a shot that was good enough to make the animal bleed. So the thing is, yes, extremely challenging. Other side of that spectrum. It's awesome reward. Awesome reward.

You asked, do I want to be a bow hunter now? Kinda bruh. And here's the thing, like, I think. And this is a natural. And this. It didn't start right now though, I think, right, Right when Cameron Haynes, even John. John Dudley, when they kind of came exploded onto the scene.

Yeah, bro.

I felt it then.

Kind of dope. And you know, you see other people doing it and them talk about it, kind of just kind of exposes it in a way that, you know, I haven't been exposed to it. I'm sure a lot of other people. Same. Same deal. Because I noticed a lot of people picked it up after that kind of started. Yeah, for sure.

I'm one of them.

Yeah, I feel it. I feel it. So, yeah, I do kind of.

All right, well, good. Hey, gonna need to get in good shape if you're gonna do any kind of hunting or if you can do any kind of living, by the way, just being alive, I recommend you be in good shape. Just like it pays to be in good shape when you're out on the mountain. Maybe you could get that 1/10 of a percent that's going to make the difference. What's that? 1/10 of a percent in life. Let's think about that. So that means staying physically active, healthy, working out, pushing yourself. You know what that means?

Yes.

What does it mean?

Well, it means a lot of things, but, you know, so with my kids, and you guys kind of mentioned this before, right? With kids, like they're watching you.

So.

Sometimes they're gonna be like, oh, I see, you know, dad's doing this, so they might want to try to imitate a little bit just to see what. What the hype's all about, you know? And so my kids, in my very specific situation, like, they. They'll start jumping in on the workouts or whatever, start making little goals and stuff like that, and they have to endure.

Things like dom's or their doms. That's basically what it is, right? But when you're a kid, doms is like, you don't know what that is. You just think it's like just your body's breaking down.

You're like, I'm six years old. I got doms. What up?

No, not yet. Until you explain it or whatever. But either way, you get soreness. It's not all like, freaking bullseye, is what I'm saying.

True.

You know, you get some pain, get some aches, get some good days and bad days is what I'm saying. Takes effort.

Well, when you start feeling some of those bad days, maybe you need some more protein, right? Get yourself some milk. Get yourself some joint warfare. Get yourself some super krill. Get yourself some jocko Fuel jockey fuel dot com. Make that happen. Out of the gate, we got new flavors on the energy drinks that are coming. All the flavors are new, right?

So. Yeah, and you. You mentioned that before we started recording, and it's the way you said. Okay, to clarify, they're not new flavors. They're the same flavors redefined or remastered.

Remastered. And even you could just say mastered. Because here's the thing. The initial flavor profiles, let's call them, they were based on my sense of taste, which. My sense of taste, you know, not eat a bunch of sweets. All of a sudden, I drink something with monk fruit in it.

I'm like, whoa.

You know, I'm used to drinking water.

Right. So you put a little monk fruit in something, and I think I'm. I think I'm having a freaking. A dang.

Coca Cola, right? Sure. With a. With a little tiny 1/10 of 1% of some monk fruit in there. I think I got a Coca Cola. I'm like, yeah, this tastes delicious. This so sweet. I was wrong. Yeah. So we've adjusted so that they taste even better. Kind of hitting the shelves right now. Depending on where you're at. Depending on. Yeah, depending on where you're at. But as you're hearing this, it's time to start getting back into the game. If you didn't like the original flavors, we made them all. They taste. Here's the thing. We're gonna win on taste. Now, before, we were winning on this is good for you. Everything else is poison. It's actually going to kill you. Yeah, You. And we were winning on that. Yeah. And. And winning on that, but you also got to win on taste. So now we're going to win on taste. We're winning on. On all fronts. Yeah. So there you go.

Yep.

Jockerfuel.com I will. Coming your way.

Second, that. Being someone who has tasted the new flavor, I will agree with that.

Wait, flavor or flavors? Because I've tasted all the new flavors, and they're all.

Well, I just tasted the mango, so. No, no, the mango and the orange, so.

Yeah.

Yes.

They're freaking delicious. You can get the drinks at Wawa, you can get all the stuff at Vitamin Shop, or you can get it all@jockofuel.com check some of that out. And if you watch the video version of this on our YouTube channel, Jocko Podcast, you're probably gonna see Cam Haynes. You're going, what's Cam Haynes look like? And then you're gonna go, whoa, what's he wearing on his upper torso?

You heard us talk about origin hunt.

So origin hunt is coming. If you want to check into that or if you want to check it in, whatever. American made. Just. Pair of jeans. You want to check American made. Pair of boots, you want to check. American made T shirt. American made beanie. American made wallet belt. Whatever. If you want to bring manufacturing back to America, you want to support America, you want to support freedom. If you're anti slave labor, go to OriginUSA.com get yourself what you need. Yeah.

Don't get tricked to you. You can be anti uniquely priced labor.

What's that?

Same deal.

What's this?

Uniquely priced labor?

Is that what they call it? Like a euphemism for slave labor?

Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, are you serious?

Yeah, that's the. What do you call the.

The euphemism. The buzzword.

Yeah, the one that sounds good.

You know, that's a euphemism. Yeah, yeah, this sounds good.

Yep. That's exactly what it is called slave labor. Y. Yeah.

They in fact, meanwhile there's a freaking kid working for a dollar a week.

Oh yeah.

Cancer causing conditions.

Forced to, by the way. Forced to.

So this is America. Yeah, this is America.

We're not. We're not doing that. We got American made stuff. Support it. GeorgeUSA.com this is America.

Yeah.

Like saying that.

You kind of sounded like Pete right there when you said it like that.

Does Pete say it like that? Yes.

Huh.

I haven't heard him say that.

Yeah. Not to mention jujitsu stuff as well in there.

Yes.

You know, American made.

You should be training jiu jitsu.

Oh, yeah, yeah. We were doing, you know, what do you call spring cleaning? You know, I was observing, but it was going on at my house and you know, I. My wife brought out all the geese that I have to kind of organize or whatever and. Yeah, I saw the comparison. You know, you still have geese, Apparently.

I didn't know. But are they in the garbage now? In the garage, on the floor, heading to the garbage?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I'm so happy I don't have any other geese anymore.

Yeah, it's kind of worthless. No, you know, no offense, but they're kind of worthless.

Kind of. Kind of. It show. It shows you how malleable the human mind is. Yeah. Because we all just thought that's just how it's going to be. Just a. Just wearing the most uncomfortable thing on your body while you're trying to be athletic and move around. No reason for that.

No reason.

No reason for that. Originusa.com it's true.

Also, if you want to represent while we're on this path, it's hard. It's a hard path, as one might say. But hey, you want to represent, go to jockostore.com where you can get your apparel. Other apparel. Discipline equals freedom. We got some new discipline equals freedom. Standard issue by the way.

What? Back to old school.

I don't want to go into too much detail, but it's a basic design. Discipline equals freedom. And there's certain layers on there that you'll probably notice. We'll say if you have a keen eye, you'll notice the layers. Nonetheless, we got some new stuff on there anyway. If you want to represent, that's where you can get it. Choco Star. There's also the shirt locker, which is your subscription shirts shirt every month. Good design, unique, unique, creative, fun. In fact, this last one, I'm not gonna tell you what it is, maybe I will. But it was one of the. You know, every once in a while you'll get one where people will actually go out of their way to send you messages with them wearing the shirt and say, hey, you knocked it out of the park with this one. I got that this past month or this current month.

Wait, have I seen it yet?

Nope.

Oh, so it's not released yet? This is.

No, it's released. So now everything's live. So the first of the month, you. I don't care if you sign up on the first month or you, your order is on the first month, it's that it's all current. So yeah, it's this month. What is it?

May.

Yep. Check that.

May. Sure. We're just going to be very high esteemed either way. Yeah. Chocolate store dot com.

Yeah. And if you can subscribe to the Shirt locker and you can subscribe to the podcast. Allegedly. Go, go out there, leave a review or whatever they say to do. Oh yeah, Jocko underground dot com. We're doing a lot of Q and A on that. We're also addressing some of life's.

Some of the aspects of life that we can gain an edge on that maybe we weren't thinking about. Yeah, right. So that's probably a good thing to pay attention to. The reason we have that is there's strange things going on in the world. There's censorship. People are getting banned, shadow banned, the whole nine yards. We don't have any control over the platform that you're listening to this on right now, but we do have control over jocko underground.com so if you want to help us out there, you can sign up for that. It cost $8.18 a month. If you can't afford that, we still want you in the game. You can. Email assistanceconderground.com we have a YouTube channel. You can see what Cameron Haynes's awesome looking sweatshirt. He took it off after a while because it is warm.

Yes.

Yeah. So about halfway through, we had to take a little break, and he had to. He had to take her down.

Yeah. You don't want to let the aesthetic value diminish because of the functional value. See what I'm saying? If it's not cold or if you're not enduring the elements, you might not need that. So I'm gonna put that on the side.

So There you go. YouTube channel. Check that out. Psychological warfare. I think I said we were gonna make another one of those, like three, four or five years ago at some point in history. Flipside. Canvas.com Dakota Meyer. Making cool stuff. Got a bunch of books that, hey, the book to invest in right now, Endure, by Cameron Haynes, Forward, written by Joe Rogan.

Freaking great book. Lots of knowledge in there. Like I said, it's not just about. It's not just about bow hunting. Bow hunting is the vehicle for lessons to be learned. So check that out. Only Cry for the living by Holly McKay. There's a book, we covered it on this podcast. You might want to check into that book. A raw account of war that Holly, who is a badass, risked life and limb to go and capture. Stories on the ground in war. So check that out. Final spin, Leadership strategy and tactics. You got all the books I've written. If you want them, go get them. Echelon Front just got back from Battlefield, out of Gettysburg.

Powerful. Next up in August is Little Bighorn. We're going to go do the lessons, learn, walk the battlefield at Little Bighorn. So if you want to check that out, we have a muster coming up in Denver. Anyways, if you want to come to an Echelon Front event, go to echelonfront.com check out the events there. Also, if you need help in your organization, we can give you leadership help. That's what we do. Also, the academy online. Look, you know how you got to go to the gym if you want to stay in shape? I do.

Yeah.

Leadership's the same way. You don't just. You're just going to go to the gym one time. Yeah. Now you're good.

Yeah. Not to mention. Actually, it might be kind of the same thing, but not to mention where. So I've been in this game for a while, been around you for a while, and there is stuff like within the last one month, actually more than one thing, by the way, that hit me in a different way to make me realize it. And it's stuff you've been saying in one way or another for the whole time. Years.

Yeah.

By the way, and then you'll say it a certain way. Or you'll interact with someone a certain way and be like, oh, that's what he meant. Oh, that's how you know. So you'll come across things that'll be revelations over time.

Yeah.

Extreme ownership.com is about life. It's about how to do better in life in a bunch of different ways. So if you want to. By the way, if you got a question you want to ask me, because go on there. I'll be live on a zoom call, and you can ask me whatever you want. We'll work through it. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, if you want to do good, you want to provide some medical treatments for.

For service members, go to America's mighty warriors.org also check out heroes and horses.org I've been making the mistake of calling it.comis.org. i was texting with Micah the other day, and he's like, you know, he's kind of like. He's kind of like. He goes, hey, appreciate the support. It's dot org. So sorry, Micah. Sorry about that. And hey, don't forget, you can find Cameron Haynes. He's on Instagram. He's.

At Cameron Haynes. And he puts up a lot of awesome stuff. Puts up a lot of awesome stuff. He does a lot of stories.

So if you want to check that out, give him a look. As far as Echo and I go, we're both on Twitter. I've been on Twitter. Like, I've been, you know, back in the game on Twitter. Seems like it's moving in the right direction a little bit more. Was kind of getting a little sketchy for a while, so I've been hammering on Twitter a little bit. Echoes there. I'm there. We're also on Instagram. We're also on Facebook. Echoes Attica, Charles. I'm ockawilling, but once again, watch out the algorithm. The free dopamine hits. You're getting the dopamine without suffering. It's bad for you. Watch out for it. Don't let it hit you. And.

Thanks once again, Cam Haynes, for coming on. So many lessons to learn, and we appreciate it and it's an honor to be working with you now at Origin Hunt. And of course, thanks to military personnel, active duty, and veterans that protect our way of life around the world. We are forever indebted to you. And also thanks to our.

Police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, all the first responders you make incredible sacrifices to keep us safe here at home. And we. We are grateful for what you do every day and to everyone else. Dispersed throughout Cam's book are a bunch of short sections. And I didn't cover. I don't think I even covered very. I've covered a couple of them today, actually. No, I don't think I covered any of them. But they're these short little sections that provide some insight into Cam's mindset that I think will be helpful to anybody that's trying to get their mind right. Here's one of those little sections.

It goes like this. You make a good shot this season. Nobody cares. Work harder. You miss this season, Nobody cares. Work harder. You got a promotion at work. Nobody cares. Work harder. Your dog died. Nobody cares. Work harder. You won the Super Bowl. Nobody cares. Work harder. Nobody really cares about your goals. Nobody cares about your excuses for not achieving recent success. Yesterday means nothing. Recent failure. Yesterday means nothing. Give all you have today. What you've accomplished in the past means nothing. We don't rest on laurels. It is time to work.

And with that, until next time, Zeko and Jocko out.