480: Making $200k a Month After Being on the Verge of Bankruptcy

This is the biggerpockets podcast show 480.

So I ended up like $400,000 in debt and I didn't earn anything that year. We were selling stuff out of our house. I liquidated my 401k. I was selling rental properties. We were on the brink of bankruptcy.

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What's going on, everyone? It's Brandon Turner, host of the Biggerpockets podcast here with my co host, Mr. David in my guard green. What's up, man? How you doing?

Very nicely done. Sneaky as well.

That's my favorite spot is I want you in my guard and when we're rolling jiu jitsu. But is that weird? I don't know. I feel like I can triangle you all from there. People have no idea what we're talking about right now.

But no, you triangle everybody from there. I've told people it's like wrestling Dulcim from Street Fighter to your legs just go so long.

Oh, that's. I don't know if that's a good thing or not. Well, we're back for another show today and this show is just fire, like, just amazing. Both like actual like step by step instruction on how to get off market deals. But also you're going to hear just a very powerful story from our guest today. His name is Dan Bro, and Dan is a real estate investor. Been involved about five years and has gone through like did really well, had some really hard times. You're going to hear about that. And that means like 400 grand in debt at one point lost a bunch of stuff. It was crazy. On the brink of bankruptcy. And then has emerged out the other side and runs a very successful real estate business right now. And they focus primarily or entirely on off market. They got some really clever ways to get deals, stuff that we don't hear a lot of on this show. So you're going to hear about that and more coming up shortly. But first, let's get to today's quick tip.

Tip.

Today's quick tip is don't neglect the power of a coach. Look, when we talk about what a coach is, is it's really somebody who has done what you are doing before you has learned a lot of the things you're trying to figure out on your own and has taken the time to analyze those things and come up with a system to help you learn them faster. Coaches are not just for athletes. Coaches are for everyone. A coach can shorten your learning curve, and that means help you make money a lot f faster and a lot quicker than you would if you did it on your own. So in many areas of life, your spiritual life, your fitness, your wealth building, whatever it is that you're passionate about and you care about, look to see how you can get some coaches in your world.

David, what are your thoughts on, like, I agree 100% and I, I utilize this, but how do you avoid, like, the get rich quick guru who says, I'm gonna make you rich overnight, you know, you'll pay me $40,000? Is that what you're talking about? Could it be what you're talking about? Like, how do you view that?

So that's not a coach. What that is a person who's trying to say, I will help you accomplish what you want and help you avoid the journey to get there. That is what gurus capitalize on. They say, if you buy my system, if you pay your money, if you buy these courses, you won't have to learn how to build a business. You can just have a business. They make you believe that they are. You are buying a business from them, from that $40,000, but you're not. They're still just gonna give you the information that you have to go actually enact. Now, the best coaches walk you through the journey that you're trying to do and help you perform. First off, the, the expense of the coaching is one big way that you can know that this is not legit. Now, some coaches, like Tony Robbins, I think he charges a million dollars a year. And if you're able to afford that, it makes sense for you to go hire Tony Robbins as your coach. But Tony Robbins isn't going to tell you that he's going to make. You're going to make $10 million just because you spent that 1 million. You're the one that still go has to do it. So that's one of the litmus tests that I have, is when someone tells me, hey, if you buy this program, you can get this thing. If they're selling me the thing, I know it's not true. I'd be better off to spend that $40,000 to go buy the house than it would be to buy the product.

That's really good, man. Yeah, I totally agree. I use coaches in a number area of my life. A number of areas. But yeah, I mean Tiger woods has a coach. So why don't you. All right. Very cool.

Good.

Quick tip.

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Said, I think we're ready to jump into today's episode again. Our guest today is Dan Bro, Real Estate Off Market Extraordinaire. Is that. Did I use that word right? Extraordinaire. Extraordinaire Eerie.

Is that.

Is that a word? Like extraordinaire? I feel like it is.

Absolutely.

Okay, good. All right, good. I used it correctly. I can speak English good.

It was very popular in the 1700s, so.

I'm bringing sexy back. All right, here we go. I interview with Dan Bro starts now.

All right, Dan, welcome to the BiggerPockets podcast, man. Good to have you here.

Thanks for having me, guys. Yeah.

Now, I don't want to judge here, but you don't appear to be like 50 or 60 years old, so you're a younger dude. How old are you?

31 years old.

31 years old. And how long ago did you get into real estate investing?

I've been in real estate for five years.

Okay. And I'm gonna get through the whole story here in a second, but I'm curious, like, what's your current. I want to start at the end and then we're gonna work backwards. Current portfolio or not portfolios, but just like, like deal flow. Like, what do you do? Like, what's your. What's your thing today? What's kind of the success carrot will dangle to make people listen to the whole episode on how you got there?

Yeah. So right now I am focused 100% on wholesaling. And last month we actually had our best month ever. We did 12 transactions, and that's at average of 15,500 per deal. So for us, that was super exciting.

So now we got it back into how you got there. So why don't we start with the first question I always ask people, which is now not the first question. How did you get started with real estate investing?

Yeah. So even as a little kid, I remember being interested in real estate. I remember driving by houses and buildings and things and wondering who owned them and pointing out the ones that I'd want to own. And so as. As I got older, I did different sales jobs and I was in the medical device industry. The medical device sales industry. And looking into different investing options. Didn't really like what I saw for, you know, investing in stocks and all that. And so stumbled upon real estate investing. And I liked the control that it offered. The all the benefits for the depreciation, all the different write offs, the cash flow now the buildup of the value over time. And the control was a big thing for me. So I started while I was working full time, I started buying some rentals, starting doing some flips, and then it sort of just snowballed from there.

Well, let's go back to start with you start with Rentals or start with flips.

What was the very first deal, My first one that I ever bought was a duplex in the inner city.

Okay, what city is this?

Rochester, New York. That's right.

Okay, so Rochester inner city duplex. Did you house hack that you just live, you know, did you just buy to the straight rental?

Just bought it. It was off the mls. The numbers looked great, so it looked super attractive. And that is one of the dangers of these inner city properties is that the numbers look great. When you get into it, the reality is very different because the tenants are usually not that great.

There's a lot of people who hear these things like, you can buy a house for 50 grand or 30 grand or 100 grand, and they're like living in California or Hawaii or whatever. They're like, how the heck do you do that? Like, and so you're saying it's not always. So the tenant quality is not there. Right. So what else did to be aware.

Of with those cheaper properties? There's no pride of, I guess if you want to call it rentership or ownership, but they just don't take care of the place as well. So. And so for me, it just. It just wasn't worth it. So I ended up selling it after about a year and a half.

Do you lose any money on that or you actually make some?

I made money. I mean, if you look at the straight numbers, if you factor in my time, then no.

Do you regret doing that deal?

I don't regret it because I did learn a lot. I probably learned more about what I didn't want to do. So I think that's just as valuable.

You know, I was working on some bonus content for the multifamily book that we're launching here shortly. And I was writing this article on like, like how to skip the small, like the small deals and go right into the big deals. And I made this. This comment in there about the dangers of doing that is that you just don't know what you don't know and you don't know what you don't like. And I was thinking about when I got into mobile home parks. I didn't know that I didn't like septic tanks. Right? Like, I don't. I would not have known that unless I bought something with a septic tank or almost bought something with a septic tank. And through that. So it's one of those, like, difficult kind of chicken of the egg problems or catch 22s, I guess, where like, you don't know what you don't like until you get in there. But you don't like, you don't want to make a mistake anyways. Do you have any advice for people who are worried about that? They're like, well, I don't know what I don't know. And so I don't want to make that mistake. What do you tell people in that, in that. Kind of paralyzed by fear because of that.

Yeah. So what I did when I first got started, when I was trying to learn about real estate and get into it, is I interviewed as many investors as I could and I asked them those same questions, like, what are you glad you did? What are you doing now? What would you do over again if you were starting out? What do you. What would you do differently, knowing what you know now? And so through that I, I did learn, you know, you still make mistakes. That is going to happen no matter what. You can plan as much as possible, you can plan for months and years, and you're still going to make mistakes. So I think knowing that going in, like, you can make the perfect strategy and the perfect plan, and no matter what you do, there's still going to be things that are unexpected, still things that you don't like. So at some point, you know, you do your research, but at some point you just got to take the leap of faith.

Yes, that's a great point. And I think a lot of analysis paralysis is rooted in avoiding mistakes that experienced people know you literally can't. Like how do I. You go to a buffet, you've never eaten any of the food. How do I know which one I should eat? Which one's gonna taste good or bad? You can't know. And here's another layer of complexity. Certain food may taste good to you, that tastes bad to someone else, and vice versa. There are people that invest in, like inner city real estate that crush it, that, that really understand the dynamic of what they're looking for in tenants, how to set that relationship up, how to get the most out of it. And they get a lot of benefits that someone might not get. Avoiding Section eight. Like, you know, Joe Awesome Wise, kind of the Section 8 guy we always referred to, that we interviewed, he put together an incredible system to just absolutely destroy it in those markets. But that's a food he likes. That's a skill set he's got that was different than what you had, Dan. So, yeah, that's a great point. Like it didn't work out like you thought that it would, somebody else might make that work out a lot better. But you had to go through that to figure out what you did want to do. So that being said, what did you sort of transition into after those first bad experiences?

After that I decided one, I wasn't going to purchase on market properties anymore. I was going to find the deals myself and I wanted to deal with properties where they would stay longer and take better care of them.

Can you real quick explain, just for those who maybe are unaware, with the, with the distinction on market, off market, what's the difference and why did you decide to go off market?

Yeah. So on market, anything that's on the mls, the multiple listing services, anything listed by a realtor or a real estate agent, the typical, you have the for sale signs out in the front yard. That's anything that's on market. Anything off market is anything other than that. And, and that's how we find all of our deals.

Now.

It's primarily direct to seller. And so whether they are trying to sell their house for sale by owner. So they might have a sign out in the front of their yard, but it's, it's for sale by owner. Or some people will put an ad out on Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace or you know, nowadays we contact sellers directly or they might see one of our ads and call us. And so with that generally you could get better pricing and probably a whole lot less competition as well. And so for us that was, that made the most sense.

That's powerful. Yeah, on, I like to say like on market, like on market deals like the mls, right. Real estate agent listing it. The problem is like everybody's there. Like there's so many people, especially when we're talking small deals, like when we're talking single family duplex, triplex, fourplex, but especially the single family. The difficulty with the MLS is that you're competing against emotion. Right. You're not competing against logic or investments. If I'm buying a large apartment complex, let's say, or I just got a self storage deal locked up. So if I'm, if I'm buying that I'm competing against guys like David Green here or against like you like experienced investor who's in it for the profit, in it for the return. So we're competing on level ground. But you buy a house and on market and you're competing against like Bob and Jane, you know, who, who have their 2.1 cute kids and all they care about is a cute front porch. So they're going to pay 100 grand over asking because they really want that property for their cute Kids. And so yeah, off market just gets around that, around the emotion or at least hopefully.

So, yes, Brandon, there is a lot more competition when you're looking on the mls. There's also going to be other people that are more emotionally and they're not investment minded that you're competing with, which is why many people want to go off market to sort of avoid the crowds. But there's downsides to that too. You're not going to be getting counsel. You don't have a fiduciary looking at this for you. A lot of the information that you want on that property, you're going to have to get on your own. So Dan, can you share what some of the challenges were when you moved into finding deals almost exclusively off market?

Yeah. So with off market, there's. Once you get it down, it can be great. But starting off, a lot of people can really struggle. A lot of people, just to start off, don't even know where to find them. So, you know, how are you even going to locate these properties? That was my first question. I bought properties from a wholesaler a few deals in and I asked them where did they even find these properties? They wouldn't tell me.

So that's number one, you know, where do you even find them? And then once you learn about all these different options for where you can find them, then it's well, which one do you pick? And then you can get into analysis paralysis. And so there's so many options, there's so many different ways you can actually contact them that which one do you go with? And then on top of that, there's so many uncertainties because a lot of these off market deals, they might be, they might have title issues, they might have, you know, judgments or liens or they're in foreclosure or there's something going on that led them to be in a distressed situation where going on market doesn't make sense or it's not a good option. So there's usually a lot more factors at play.

So could you maybe lay out for those listening who are trying to decide between off market and on market, how should, what kind of person should we should not even bother with off market and what kind of person should not even bother with on market and should people do both? I guess that's a multilevel question there. But why should, why should people choose one or the other?

So if you're looking for a ready to go turnkey, property on market is probably going to be the way to go. If you're Looking for a personal home that is, that's also going to be the way to go is on market. If you're looking for a great deal where you can buy below market value and there's way less competition and you're okay with doing a bit more work to get the deal, then off market might be a better fit for you. But know that it will be more work because there aren't real estate agents involved. And that's one of the benefits of going on market is that you have the real estate agent doing a lot of that work for you. So when you're off market, you do it yourself.

That's really good. Yeah, I like to think like on market is really good. I think for like new investors just trying to get started, trying to get on base, trying to get in the game, trying to figure things out. Yeah, get yourself an agent. Have David Green here help you buy a property. Like, that's great. But like when you're like, okay, now I'm ready to get serious about this. Now I'm ready to like make, get some home runs. I just want to like knock it out of the park. That's when I think those people can go in the off market. We're going to have. Your struggle is if you're trying to go off market but you're not willing to do that work or you're not prepared to do the hard, like the actual talking with the seller and figuring out the title issues and talking with like, it's just, it's a mess. Would you agree with that? David Green? I'm going to ask you this as an agent. I know you don't like people going off market. You want them to work with you. But how do you feel about that?

I guess what I don't like is people going off market and then emailing and calling and texting me saying, hey, how do I fix this problem with the deal? Okay. Because that's what everyone's going to do. The Dan's understand this at a high level and he's taking responsibility for working through the problems. When you say I want to go off market, but I also don't know how to go off market. Now you're. That doesn't make. That doesn't work for anybody. So I think part of the problem and there's a lot of reasons about the difficulties with going off market. When you go through an agent, first off, you're going to learn a lot more. If they're a good agent, they're going to teach you. You're more likely to actually land a deal, which at certain point in your career could make a lot more sense. So for someone in my position, it might make more sense to go off market because I could conceivably get a better deal. But that's because I know how to get it. In the very beginning, it might make me eight years before I can get an off market deal and I didn't learn anything. And so that would hurt. The other piece would be when you're looking at off market deals, you're literally building an entire business that's trying to rival what the MLS does for agents. You're trying to fill up a pipeline of possible houses and learn how to negotiate and put all the pieces together. That has already happened in the real estate industry where they have this pipeline of deals called the mls. So if you're committed to doing what Dan did, hell yeah, you should get into that and look for off market deals. But Dan had to solve problem after problem after problem after problem to build the world that he's in. And that costs a lot of money too. Let's make no bones about it, right? We always hear people complain about wholesaler fees. Well, if you had to go do the job of the wholesaler, you'd probably spend a lot more money than that wholesale fee to land that same deal that you could go get from them because you're inefficient. So there's definitely pieces of this that people tend to overlook and only focus on the benefit, which is there's less competition.

Let's talk off market for a little bit. Some of the different strategies. You mentioned that one of the downsides is there's so many options to choose from. There are, there's tons of. I think one of the books I wrote, how to Invest in Real Estate, I have a chapter called 27 Ways to Find real estate Deals. And like, I didn't even probably hit them all. I'm sure there's a lot more that you do that I don't even do. So what are some of the more popular ones off market strategies? If you just kind of list them and then let's talk about the ones that you like the best right now.

You know, some of the most popular ones that people probably know about, you can, you know, look on Craigslist and you see if someone's posting their house. Or Driving for Dollars is a really popular one where, you know, you can be just driving around when you're doing your errands, or you can go specifically to look for houses and you just look for houses that are, look like they're in disrepair, maybe the grass is overgrown so they need new paint, they need a new roof. You know, there's a lot of things you can look for. And there you can do direct mail, you can do Facebook ads, you can do Bandit signs is a really popular one for, for newer wholesalers. A lot of people will do joint venture agreements where you're actively trying to work with other wholesalers. So I mean there's like, you're, there's 100 different ways you can find off market properties. Right now our primary methods. Number one is TV ads, which is my favorite by far. It's phenomenal.

Yeah, let's talk about this. I don't know, I mean, I think we've maybe had three people in the history of the bigger pockets podcast doing TV ads because that just feels over. I mean I've never done. It feels overwhelming. Feels like a lot of work. So how do you even go about doing a TV ad? Who do you, who do you call for that? And then what's your ad like?

Yeah, I'm gonna give a huge shout out to Darren Dami of Bullseye Branding. He does it all. This guy is an absolute rock star. He will just set you up and make sure you're doing all the right stuff. They give you the scripts, they do all the production, they do the ad buys for you. If, if they didn't do all that, there's no way I would have gotten into tv because there's so many decisions that have to be made about what you're purchasing, when you're purchasing it, when it's airing all those decisions. I mean it's a full time job. And so like I'm happy to pay their service fee for them to do all that stuff for us because they're taking the data from all their investors all around the country, seeing what works the best and then making decisions in my market to give me the best return on investment. It's not cheap, but the return is phenomenal.

Yeah, I love that you're answered that with like, well I'm like how do you do it? And you're like, no, who's going to do it?

Right.

It's not how principle.

Right.

So I love that you're, you're, I'm going to find an expert because you could spend the next five years getting good at TV yourself, like figuring out how to do the ad buy, how to negotiate with the networks, how to do this, how to do that, like, forget it. Find somebody who's Already got that figured out. Shave years of hard work off and just get the best information. So that's. That's about the best answer you can give there. So what's your TV commercial like? Is it you on it? Do you have somebody else on it? Like, what's that like?

Yeah, it is me. And that actually makes a huge difference because I do still run a lot of appointments, and we do mostly in person appointments. And it is, interestingly, sort of like a local celebrity factor. You know, when I walk in the house and they're like, oh, you're the guy on tv. And it's. It's really interesting that, you know, I know I've talked with other guys in other markets about this where they're the one on TV and they'll have other acquisition reps on their team going to appointments, and they track the numbers when they go on the appointments. The person who's on tv, they get better deals because it's just like this instant credibility. You know, you see someone on tv, you automatically associate them to someone who's more credible and professional. And so it just gives me a leg up on the competition from the first step in the house.

Why would a seller in today's market, which is crazy. Everyone, Everyone. I feel like everyone knows the real estate market's nuts. Like, even if you're not in real estate, you know, that's crazy. Why would they call a number on a TV commercial to sell their home instead of just calling up a real estate agent?

So, you know, the people that sell to us, and it's not most people, whole selling to a cash buyer off market is not a good fit for most people. That's where I think people go wrong, is that they try to chase all these leads. They try to sell to or they try to buy from everybody, and that's where they end up just spinning their wheels with so many people. So the people that actually are a good fit for a cash buyer like us are people that have problems. And so I always say that the price is a reflection of the problem. And so these people, they either have a house they just. They can't afford anymore. They. They want nothing to do with it. It's too much work. It's overwhelming. They're worried about it, they're anxious. There's something personal going on where they just don't want to deal with it, or especially with COVID going on. Maybe they just don't want people walking through their house and they don't want to do an open house. They don't want to do showings. They don't want to get it ready because they're embarrassed. Maybe they're, you know, I go into a lot of hoarder houses, and so they don't want people coming in their house. They don't want to show it. They just want a quick, clean, easy transaction where they don't have to worry about anything. Everything's done for them, and they can leave the house as is. So those are the type of people that it does make sense for.

That's a really good point. I notice a lot of the newer people that are trying to get into off market deals will ask questions like, hey, how do I convince the seller why they should take my offer? How do I make them realize they need a cash buyer? And Dan, you're hitting the point. Well, that's the wrong person for you. You're barking up the wrong tree.

Yeah, 100%, I think. It's never, honestly, literally every single appointment I go on, I ask them, why not just put it on the market because you will get more for it. And then what they do is then they tell me all of the reasons why they don't want to list it on the market.

I love it. Yep.

And, and so I. Every time when we bring someone new into our company, I say, look, this is not a good fit for most sellers. It's a good fit for maybe like 5% of the sellers. And that's why most sellers list their house on the MLS with a real estate agent, because that's what makes the most sense. Because the money is the biggest issue for them. They don't have another big problem that they need to deal with. It's the money. So for these people, the money is usually not the primary component. So going off market to deal with their problem first is their biggest concern. And that's why it makes the most sense.

That is such good advice because that's exactly. You're looking for problems. If problems don't exist, you're just not going to get what you want because they'll just go listed on the mls. And I would, I would think that the reason most people don't say, why don't you list it on the mls Is they're afraid if they introduce that as a, as a possibility, then the person will say, oh, I didn't think of that. Should go list it with the realtor. But at this point, it's safe to assume most people know they can put their house on the market with the realtor and get all those like, you know, Competitive nature we were just talking about. So I think that your, your way is right on is ask them first. And now you put yourself in a position where they are trying to defend to you why they should sell their house directly to you. And they're giving you all the reasons why it makes more sense for them. And they're hearing themselves say that as they talk.

Well, psychological trick there, I like that a lot. So let's, let's talk a little bit more about this, this off market stuff. So tv, I mean TV ads are awesome. Are you doing anything with radio at all or just tv?

So we're not doing radio yet. That's gonna be probably in the next six months or so. So not doing that yet. But we are doing also handwritten direct mail which has been also very successful.

Now is this like actual handwritten, like you hire people to do it or is this a machine, makes it look handwritten or is it one of those like holds a pen kind of handwritten? Like what kind of handwritten are we talking?

Yeah, so actually 100% real people handwriting letters and so full letters, address on the envelope, everything handwritten. And we get Those out for 55 cents a piece.

Is that in house or that you hire a company to do that?

Yeah, so that's, that's actually a system that I created about a year and a half ago because I didn't really love the results I got with postcards. I had tried all these different methods of, of how to create handwritten. You know, I tried, I tried writing it myself, I tried hiring people locally. I, I tried making a template and making copies and just writing in the address and none of them really got the result I wanted to. And so after a whole lot of trial and error, was able to find a method where we're able to get them out at a great price. And the, the response rate and the open rate on handwritten just blows everything else out of the water because they, it seems like it's, it's a personal letter, like maybe someone you know or maybe it's a check or it's something that they want to open. So we get way more calls from those than any other type of mailers we've ever sent.

Yeah, that's very cool.

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Now let's talk about the system for managing the calls that come in like you know, off market. You're sending, you know, lots of letters, you're getting the TV calls coming in. Who answers your phone? What do they put it into? They have some kind of CRM. Like where does it go from there?

Yeah. So we use left main REI Salesforce for our CRM which if you guys don't. Anyone who hasn't heard of that, it's oh my gosh, Stephanie Betters left, left Maine. I hope that thousands of people register because of this because it is. Stephanie is an amazing human being and her CRM is incredible. I mean when we switch to that the, the level of reporting and the level of just visibility on all components of our business just quadrupled. And it made it, it's made a huge difference for us in terms of business decisions. So everything goes directly into. We have a phone app. So we use call tracking metrics for our phone system. And so the tracking numbers will register directly into the CRM. It will give us the lead source because it's linked to the tracking number. So it'll say what TV number they called or what letter number they called. So we can track everything. We have a couple people answering our phones and so they go through our standard script and they work on disqualifying people, not qualifying people. They work to disqualify the people to make sure that again, we're not, we're not trying to sell to everybody or we're not, I guess, buy. We're not trying to buy from everybody because most people are not a good fit. So we go through a series of disqualifying questions and then after that, if it does make sense to move forward, then we would set the appointment for one of our acquisition reps to go out.

That's very cool. How many people total in your company right now?

Right now there's eight of us.

Okay, eight people. And they're. Yeah, you're killing it with. You said 15. No, 13 last month. What was it?

So we did 12 last month and we are, we're tracking to some pretty significant growth. So. So we're all. Yeah, we're super excited.

So let's go back to your story a little bit. So have you always been like, you've been in this for 5ish years now. Has it been just a continual up upswing? Like every year is getting better than the last? You laugh and say, so I'm assuming not like talk. What's, what's your story look like?

Anyone who thinks success is a straight line is, is ready for a rude awakening. So it, I mean it was going well for a few years, you know, started I, I did some, some burrs. Those went really well on some nice single family, suburban homes, had some great tenants, great cash flow. All that was super happy. Started doing wholesaling a little bit and really I only wholesale the stuff that we didn't want to flip or keep. I, and I actually didn't really like wholesaling that much. I always find it. Found it kind of awkward. I didn't like the process. I didn't feel like it was a good experience for my buyers or the seller because I didn't have a good system for it. So I was doing a little bit of that. I, I started getting into bigger stuff in you know, being very ambitious. I wanted to do bigger and bigger stuff. So I decided to at pretty much this, simultaneously start a development company and take on a historic luxury flip. And so the historic part was one major mistake. I went through six months of meetings with the town board just to get it approved. And then I mean we had to rebuild the entire building went way, way over budget, way over time and you know, it turned out beautifully. But in the process of going way over budget, way over time, being admittedly being in way over my head on that project. Between that and having a construction company that was being mismanaged and I, I had admittedly had put too much faith into the guy running the crews and doing the estimates and, and doing all that. That company, we were mid build on a lake house and the company just ran out of money. And this was, this was not like a spec house. This was for a client that had paid us to build their house and we just ran out of money. I had to lay off seven guys, surrender our, these big machinery. Through all that, I mean through that entire period, this, this all took like a year to do. The most stressful year of my life. I was, I was barely sleeping. I was going to the doctor. I developed an ulcer. At the end of this I ended up like $400,000 in debt and I didn't earn anything that year. We were selling stuff out of our house. I liquidated my 401k. I was selling rental properties. We were on the brink of bankruptcy. We were, I, I met with a bankruptcy attorney. It was, it got pretty dark there for a little bit.

What mistakes led to that? I mean historic, a big issue there. And you mentioned putting too much faith in, into the guy running the construction team. But what else can we pull out of that time so other people can say hey yeah, I'm not going to get into that position.

I tried to do, I tried to do too much too soon is number one. I also was a bad delegator. I was, I was not a good leader in, in those, in those two companies. I was trying to maintain the ultimate control and it cost me because I, I was, I forced micromanaging because I, I wouldn't let go of control. And with that, that's why I was working non stop constantly. And then it led to, you know, turnover. It led to me with this other, with this guy who was running the cruise. I, he Was, you know, on the job sites, he was like an hour and a half away. I couldn't manage him. So I sort of just let that go too much. And so it was really a poor, poor leadership on my part. And that's something I've been working really hard to correct, but trying to do too much too soon with something that I honestly didn't know enough about. So I took on this massive project that we had to completely rebuild the house. I didn't have a construction background and I didn't have the right people around me either. And that was probably the biggest mistake, is that I was trying to do it all myself without the right people around me. And you know, I, I don't have to tell you guys, but, but you know that the most successful people are surrounded by a lot of other successful people and, and they have coaches and they have mentors and they lean on the strengths of others. And that's something that, if I had done better, I think those two projects would have turned out very differently.

Such powerful lessons in there. Because imagine, yeah, like everything you said, from doing too much stuff to not managing correctly, not being the right leader you needed to be. I mean, we've all been there. I feel like that's just my story over and over and over. And so like the idea of like focusing on fewer but better focus in on the systems and the management and the leadership skills, not doing everything yourself, I mean, those are just like, those are million dollar lessons that I think you're just, you know, pouring onto our audience. So appreciate that, man. I know that's. It's hard to go through that stuff, but it sounds like you came out the other end. I mean, you're killing it right now. So what lessons did you take? Maybe like, maybe not what lessons, but what. How did you get from that to where you are today? I mean, walk us through that transition.

Yeah, so as you could imagine, after that, I sort of said, you know what, I'm done with real estate. It's like, it's. This doesn't work, it's not worth it. I'm not putting my family through this because at that point, you know, I. During this whole thing, I. A month, a week before that historic property closed, we had our daughter. And so that whole time I had a newborn and an infant and new marriage. And so I said, you know what? I need to just provide some stability for my family. I need to get away from this. I need to. My, my risk profile, as you can imagine, dropped dramatically. And so I decided to Go back into the medical device industry. And that actually started going really well. They created this new position for me. I was doing stuff all over the east coast. It was going really well. And then Covid hit and everything just shut down. And I said, well, I'm not going to do nothing. I can't just do nothing, even though they were still paying me. And so I said, well, I've seen other people do real estate really successfully. I don't want to flip again, at least not right now. And I need something that I can generate some quick cash. So I said, well, wholesaling always had great margins for me, but I didn't really like the process that much. So I decided that at that point I was gonna dive head first into wholesaling, but go about it a completely different way, where I would be learning from people who were doing it at a high level, where I could get a system down and follow these processes, where we could do a really great job and just follow it, Follow the footsteps of people who have already done it. And so we learned from some really great people and implemented those systems. Combined that with my sales and marketing background and my background in personal development. And once I learned those things and implemented them, I loved wholesaling. And so for a while, I was just doing it by myself. Got a few virtual assistants helping out, started hiring.

And in that, you know, it's. It hasn't been that long. In the past year, we've went from maybe doing like 2 to 3amonth to now consistently 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. So super, super grateful, super excited, really, really happy with where things are going, where we're at. And I want to be able to help people along the way because so many people have helped me to get to where I am now.

Do you mind if I asked you a couple questions on the numbers of where your business is right now?

Absolutely.

Just so people can get a better understanding of what it looks like.

Yep.

So in order to close 12 deals, how many sellers do you have to negotiate with?

So right now, our closing ratio is about 34%. So that means on 34% of the offers that we make, we turn those into a deal. Now, some of those, we've recently. And this another thing I'm super excited about that. Any. Any wholesaler, if they're not doing this, they need to get on board with this. And David, I actually think you'll like this because it has to do with real estate agents. But I. I recently formed a strategic partnership with a real estate brokerage here in town out of that, it's been a huge boost for our business. Basically what we did was form a partnership with them where we send them listing referrals. And so I do have my real estate license, so I can get a commission on those. And they send us any deals that don't make sense for the market, and we also give them first right of refusal on our deals. So that opened up a couple things. One, they are actively. We have this whole team of people actively working to sell our deals for us. And two, it also opens up a lot of owner occupant buyers, which, who pay more for properties, especially in today's market, where it is so ridiculously competitive that these owner occupant buyers, I mean, they're, they're going to see 20, 30 houses and making offers that are 60, 70, $80,000 over asking and still not getting the houses. And so we're able to offer them an option where there's no competition outside of the brokerage. And so these agents are happy because they don't have to show 30 houses. The buyers are happy because they don't have to make offers on 30 houses. And we're happy because it's doubled our average fee. So we're able to leverage that in a huge way. So that's been huge. So we're, we're getting a mix of wholesale deals and some listing referrals as well. Out of that, 35%.

Okay. So that's right around 36 offers, give or take, that you're making. How many deals do you have to analyze before you get to the point where, you know, these are the 36 we want to offer on.

So our goals are to have, out of all the leads that come in, Is to have 70% of those convert to what we call an opportunity, which is they do want to sell their house. They actually have a house to sell, and their price expectations aren't ridiculous. So they're not looking for market value or above market value. And then our goal from there is that 90% of those opportunities turn into an appointment. And so then it's out of that 90% that 30, 34% of those will turn into a deal for us.

So then you've got all these deals that are coming in that you're looking to see if they're an opportunity. And then you have to figure out how many pieces of mail or how many conversations or how many things do I have to do to get somebody to come in and say, hey, I might want to sell my house to you, and what I'm really trying to track back is what's an understanding of what your overhead is right now. So the people that are listening that think, oh, I could do that, I just need to go talk to people all the time so that they understand like why how much pressure's on you to actually convert these into deals.

So let me say this, that a wholesaling operation can be run by just talking to as many people as you possibly can, but you cannot scale it doing that, so you can't. If you want to run a business where you're not doing everything, then you need to start looking into other ways to find deals. If you just want to be a one man show, absolutely do that all day long and you have a very high paying job. But if you want a business, then you need to do different stuff. So right now on a monthly basis, our marketing spend is 15,500.

And then what about like the staff that you do, you pay them per deal. Are they on like on a commission structure?

We have our head of operations, he's on salary plus a percentage of profits. We have sales reps, some of whom are on a salary plus commission, others are just straight commission. And then we have virtual assistants that are just an hourly, hourly rate. So on average, I mean we're going to be spending over 20,000amonth, probably more like 25amonth just to meet our monthly expenses.

So that's $25,000 a month regardless of what happens. Then on top of that you've got sort of like the cost of goods sold or the cost of doing business where in order to lock it up, you're paying certain people commissions out of those deals or you know, you're, you're sweetening the pot for someone to want to move forward with it. However that is, and that's really what I wanted to highlight is this is a great business that you're running, but it doesn't come without some pressure. There's still pressure on you. That $25,000 a month, if you don't flip a house or you don't wholesale a deal, that's gone. And you've got all these people that are depending on you for their job and that you're their source of income. And so I can totally understand like why you felt all that pressure when things were going down. But kudos to you for going forward with it. I just don't want to give the impression that this is, oh, I just have to send letters and then talk to sellers and I'll put them in contract There's a lot of moving pieces involved in this business that you've successfully been able to make all fit.

That's why I think there are so many wholesalers out there that do like one to four deals a quarter. And like, they do. They're like one or two man shows and they sort of do it on the side. And you can do that and, you know, you can make a great living doing it, but you're never going to have a business doing that. And the ones that do wholesaling at a really high level have taken it from a job to a business. And in order to do that, you need to heavily invest in your business. You know, coaches, phone systems, CRMs, training. I mean, we, you know, we're part of coaching groups, masterminds. I mean, that stuff is almost a requirement to get to that next level. If you're not constantly improving, someone else is and they're going to eat your lunch.

This is why we talk a lot about, like, Mindset here on the podcast. We do the whole Sunday episodes is because like, like, this is not necessarily, like, everybody can read a book. Like, you can read Traction and figure out how to run a business system, or you could read a book on leadership from John Maxwell.

Right.

But it's not the information we lack. It's like this mindset that once you start thinking that way, like, you know, I bet you, like Dan, you could jump into, like, I don't know, any other industry. You could go right now into, like, Cutco knife sales, right? And you'd probably like, dominate that industry. Like, you'd be in the top five, 2% of all Cutco people in the world. Or you go into, like, you could make a home daycare center, like, make a daycare center for little kids, and you would probably be in the top 1% of all daycare centers in the world. David Grid, I'd say the same thing with you. It doesn't matter as much and you might not stick with it because you don't care about it, but that's a whole other thing. But once you have that mindset of success, and this is one of the biggest things I picked up being a part of different masterminds over the years, like GoBundance or like the JDC Mindset Academy I'm part of now with Jason Drees, like, this stuff, like, it's just the way you think about the world and about problems affects every area of your life. And so when you start thinking bigger, like, how would I, how would I do, you know, a dozen Deals a month. Like that thinking comes from hanging around other people who are thinking that way. Do you agree?

100 I, I think that success in business is maybe, maybe 20 strategy and tactics and 80 mindset.

Totally agree. And so when people are like, I don't want to spend any money on, you know, a mastermind or a performance coach or, or I like, none of that. Like, I'd rather just do it my own. Like, all right, you know, that's fine. Like, you're just missing out on like probably the most important aspect which is just surrounding yourself with a higher level thinking.

Yeah, I think, you know, there's a reason that a lot of these high level masterminds are 20, 30, $40,000 is because they provide so much more value than that. But it's also a barrier to entry for the people that don't have that mindset, the people that don't have that belief. If it was like a thousand bucks, you get every Joe Schmo joining and they don't have that same level of mindset. So when you go to these things, you're surrounded by people that are obsessed with growth and giving and grow and it's just the environment alone, the connections you make alone outside of the content you learn that can almost be worth it, if not way more than worth it.

Yeah, that's, that's, that's a good point about the barrier. Like it, by the higher price. Like, like, I'm like, I know David, you have like a group of people that you meet with kind of a mastermind. And I'm going likely launch something this summer of my own just to get around those people in my own kind of tribe. And I've, I've, you know, worried about that. Like I want to make it, you know, 12 bucks everybody gets in. But then, yeah, like you said, you get every single person who wants to get in. And I'm not saying like, if you have no money, you, you have no place at the table. But there's like people who have money, like, they just think differently. People have had success in other industries or whatever. They're already at that mindset. And that's what, you know, big influencers want to surround themselves with too. They don't want to just have the $12 person, so.

Well, this is the irony of life, okay? The person who's really, really fit understands a workout needs to be hard. Okay. Like, do you remember during maybe the 90s, the, the trend was the Ab Roller and the Thigh Master and it was like, basically be at home and don't put effort into this and we can get you results for easy.

Just put these sensors on your stomach and they make your muscles twitch and.

You'Ll have six pack and just lay there and watch TV and you'll just end up with a six pack. Yes, that's exactly what. But when CrossFit came out, it was horrible. But you saw the results that CrossFit people were getting and you couldn't really deny it. And it was really. It shattered that idea that you can get fit without it being hard. And the irony of life is that the people that are the most fit expect it to be hard. They don't need you to convince them, I can help you do it easy. And the people who want easy fitness will never, ever get it. They will run away from literally what it takes in order to get stronger and to get fitter. And success in business works like that too. The people like Dan and Brandon that say I am welcoming the challenges and the problems I have to solve. Being a business owner means I will have a nonstop stream of challenges that are always coming at me. And what I'm going to share is what I learned to solve those problems. Things like delegation and leadership and systems. These are all words we throw around that are just principles that help us solve problems. And that's why you guys are successful in business, is you are good with solving problems. And then that creates opportunity for other people in your company and the better problems they can solve, and the more of them they can solve, the more they can get paid because the more value they bring in business value is solving problems. And the people that are on the sidelines saying, I want to get in real estate, but what if this happens or what if that happens? What they're actually saying is, I don't want to have to solve a problem. I don't want to be responsible. And that means you're never going to get in the game. There isn't any way to get in the game that isn't solving problems. So that's, that's like the leap of faith everyone has to take is if you're sitting there saying, I don't want to pay for coaching and what if the toilet breaks or the what ifs that stop you from getting in? The what ifs are not the problem. It's that you're focusing on them and you have this subconscious belief that they shouldn't be there, that you'll do it when they're not there, which means you're the ab roller person. You're just never gonna get fit with that, that mentality.

I want to take this in one last direction before we head, you know, towards the close. But you mentioned that you were not a great leader. And that was one of the problems that back when you, when you lost a lot and now you've got a team again, you've got these eight people on that are in your company and you obviously are doing much better now. So I'm wondering, what have you learned works for leadership? Like what, what, what are you doing differently now in regards to leadership that you maybe weren't doing before?

I made it a mission to become a better leader. And one of the ways I've done that recently is I hired a leadership coach and I tell them I, I share everything with them. I tell them my goals, I tell them my struggles. Any book they tell me to read, I read it. If anyone who wants to become a better leader read the book Multipliers, it is phenomenal. That's one I should, I am going to put on my read every year list. And you know, I, it's for me, I don't know. Are you guys familiar with these different, like personality profile tests? Like, you know, there's disc, predictive index, all that stuff. So in, in my business we use predictive index. And so there's one that's, that's one of the drives is dominance. And it's like your, your drive to assert your own personal touch and have your thumb on like everything and have a say on everything and have control. And so my.

Profile for that is literally off the charts over the top. So I want to control everything. I want to have a say on everything. And so it's super, super easy for me to just direct and dictate and say, no, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do this and just tell everyone what we're gonna do. That is super easy and natural for me to do.

What I've needed to do and that I still work on every single day is be in a, is foster a more collaborative environment. Because I tell my team this every single week, that I cannot do this without them. And it's the same thing moving forward. I won't be able to create the best company possible without them. Not just what they're doing today, day to day, but their minds as well. If I'm trying to personally solve all the issues with only my mind, we're not going to have the best ideas, we're not going to think of every scenario, we're not going to be able to fully evaluate everything. So creating a culture where we're having this dialogue and we're solving issues by brainstorming together, that has made a phenomenal difference because not only does it get people to speak up and provide their ideas and we get a lot from that, but then when an ultimate decision is reached, they have even more buy in into it because they at least feel like their voice was heard and that they took part in the process of making that decision and setting that direction. So that has made a massive difference as well as one other thing which is.

Being crystal clear and communicating to our team what the ultimate vision of the company is, why we're doing what we're doing and the values that drive us every single day.

That's so good. That's one of those like rewind and listen to the last two minutes again because like this stuff matters. It just changes how you, how you approach every situation, but especially real estate investing. So very cool, man. My last question before we get into the famous four, where do you see your company headed in the future? Like, where are you? What do you see the next two, three, five years of your business looking like? More wholesaling. Are you going to get into something else?

Absolutely. We're growing this wholesaling business. My goal and we are on pace for this goal is by the end of the fourth quarter of this year is to be doing 24 deals a month. And then so we're going to be expanding to the three cities up here in western New York. So we're already in Rochester, we're going to be expanding to Buffalo and Syracuse and then we'll be expanding to multiple states as well. So I plan on making this a very large wholesaling operation. I know we can do it. I can see it. We have the right people and the momentum to do it. And I'm super excited about that. Outside of that, I'm going to be launching this, our letter writing company, Letter Bandits, that's coming real soon. And that's the, the handwritten letter company where we're doing two things. One is offering a course on here's exactly how to do step by step everything that I do in my business to set up that same letter writing system. And then for other people who don't want to, they want a more hands off approach, then we're going to actually have a service, we're pretty much a mail house where we'll do all that for them. So, so that's coming soon. And then launching into the education space so we can give back that value that, that I receive and me and my team receive every single day. And then for me, I'm, I'm really excited about getting into the commercial space. I'm super interested in self storage so really want to get big into that.

And from there, I mean my, my ultimate vision for my life is to directly impact the lives of 1 billion people. And so there's going to be, that's probably going to take my entire life. It's probably going to result in me creating a whole lot of companies, working with a lot of people. But I can't imagine a better way to spend my life than trying to literally change the world.

That's an awesome vision, man. Well, appreciate you sharing it. Well, let's head over to the next and last segment of our show. It's time for our famous four. The famous four is the part of the show where we ask the same four questions every week to every guest. And so we're gonn throw them at you right now. Question number one, Dan, what do you think is your favorite real estate investing book? I almost combined the last question with the first. What is your favorite either all time or current favorite real estate investing book?

Yeah, so one of my favorite, the Millionaire Real Estate Investor. That one. And then the Art of Wholesaling Real Estate is another good one.

Awesome. What is one of your favorite business books?

So I'm going to, I'm going to give you two. One, one for each of you. The, the multipliers. One is I, I know I mentioned it earlier but I cannot recommend it any more highly.

Yeah, I just bought it while you said that I was like, all right.

I'm getting it so good. That one that was introduced to me by another coach of mine, Gary Harper of Sharper Business Solutions. Phenomenal guy, phenomenal business leader. And then another book that you had mentioned earlier, Brandon Traction, I think for people that are trying to figure out like how do I turn this into an actual business, what do I need to do every week, every day, every quarter, every year to gain that momentum and, and make sure that we're constantly making progress so that I can take this from a job to a business. Like that's where most people struggle, I think is because most people that, that most real estate entrepreneurs do not have a business background and probably a lot of them didn't even go to college or they didn't go to college for business. And so this stuff, you know, everything in real estate is learnable and so is running a business and that, you know, there's, you know, scaling up the Rockefeller habits, all those books, they have a lot in common. But Traction is one of a great series of books that, that is super valuable for anyone looking to make that next step into a real business.

Do you.

Does your company also run like, the eos, like, management system, like from Traction?

Absolutely.

Yeah. I feel like when I, When I implemented EOS, I went from about 20 hours a week of meetings at Opendoor Capital down to about four, maybe three. It just dramatic cut down the bigger pockets. Bigger pockets. Organization runs on it as well. It's been awesome.

But yeah, there's less meetings, but the meetings are better.

Better. Much better. Yeah. And yeah, it's because I'm not, I'm not managing the team anymore. The system manages the team. I'm not like they hold themselves accountable because it's the system. And I get to lay out the vision, I get to lay out the direction, I get to oversee the big things, make sure we're buying the right stuff. But it's all the, the high impact decisions and the high impact conversations that we're having now. So awesome. Love to hear other people doing that.

Less but better.

Hi, David.

That's how I like to think about my commentary on this podcast.

All right, Dan, next question. What are some of your hobbies?

Love working out, love hanging out with my family, have a beautiful wife with two little kids. So as much time as I can spend with them, I do. And honestly, I love building my businesses. It drives me, it gets me going. I. Because I know why I'm doing it. And so I don't mind putting in that time and energy because I see that bigger purpose. So I, I love building businesses.

So what other businesses do you have? Do you have anything other than this wholesaling business?

Yeah, so we're actively building that letter bandits for, for the handwritten letters. We're in the process of building that. And then I have the coaching business where I do. I coach people on sales training and also just wholesaling in general.

You're on your way to becoming Brandon Turner, who's not a businessman.

Business.

He's a business. There you go, man.

I got to work on the beard, though.

I don't know.

You gotta, you gotta work on it.

Probably like a foot taller.

How tall are you?

Oh, five, six.

All right.

Yeah, foot taller. All right. 11 inches. 11 inches, but who's counting? Last question of the day. If you and David Green were to wrestle, who's gonna win?

Well, you know, coming onto the show, he's telling me how he just interviewed one of the Gracie Brothers, so probably him.

All right, all right, real question.

Something you should know about Brandon Dan is that he is a massive instigator. Even though he doesn't look like he's always doing stuff like that. Like, yeah, hey, go up to that person, tell them they're fat, see what they do. He'll always be trying to put you in these positions where he can sit back and watch you beat yourself up with a. With a drink in his hand for a monkey pod with a little umbrella in it. You're like the guy in the Hunger Games that orchestrated the fights. Who is that?

Snow was the name. It's like President Snow, right? I'll be him. What's the Sutherland guy? Anyway? All right, real question. What do you believe sets apart successful real estate investors from all those who give up, fail, or never get started?

And I would say so. It's funny that that question. Those who fail. Every successful person has failed and. And continues to fail constantly. I think the ones that succeed are the ones that realize that success. I think this is a Tony Robbins saying, success isn't final and failure isn't fatal.

And just knowing that as you grow, you're going to encounter bigger problems. And that is almost the. That's the benefit, because when you can solve bigger problems, you get a bigger result. And it's. It's that. And it's just. It's the. It's the mindset. It all comes down to the mindset of working to constantly get a little bit better each and every day and not trying to do it yourself and surrounding yourself with great people and learning from great people who have done it before and not trying to reinvent the wheel. And I'll add one other thing, which is focus, because I think that's where so many people go wrong. They see all these shiny objects and they. They want to do something new every single week, and they never really master any one thing. They learn a little bit about a lot of things, and they never really fully dive into one thing, so they never achieve that level of success that you see these people who are super specialized achieve.

Last question of the day. Where can people find out more about you?

Yeah, so Instagram @actiondanbro is a great place to connect with me. Seriously, if. If you guys want to talk, if you guys have questions, if you need help with something. I've said it once, I'll say it again. I get so much help every single day, every single week. I just want to give back. I want to see people win. So if you guys if you. If I can help in any way, please reach out. I want to help.

Well, appreciate you. Appreciate you coming the show, sharing your stuff, and, yeah, can't wait to see where you head in the future.

Super grateful to be here and thank you so much. All right.

And that was our interview with Dan Burrow. That was awesome. That was awesome. I. I love talking strategy, like, off market stuff. On market stuff. How, how to be a better leader. Like, the lessons, like, from his, like, struggle, like, and where he lost a lot. Like, that stuff is so powerful. I just kept finding myself, like, nodding over and over and over. So what about you?

I was impressed that he shared the $400,000 he lost. You don't hear a lot of guests that come on the podcast and want to air their dirty laundry like that, and that does happen a lot more often than people think. There's something called, I think, survivor bias, where we tend to only hear the stories when we listen to stuff of people that did well. There's not a podcast that people go on and tell everybody that they sucked and they lost a bunch of money. So when you listen to a podcast, you tend to only hear about people that did well. So.

And we're gonna launch that next week, the Smaller Pockets podcast. It's gonna be really great.

That's. That's really funny. The Holes in My Pockets podcast.

I love it.

So you mentioned something at the end there, Brandon, that I haven't heard you say. You said you're gonna be starting some form of a group coaching, or did I get that wrong?

Not necessarily. I guess that's why group coaching, it's kind of a performance coaching kind of mastermind. I don't have the official title for it yet, and it's still maybe another month or two or three out. But anyway, I am going to be launching something and I will announce it on my, like, my. My own personal newsletter, which is called behind the Beard. It's a text message newsletter so they can go to ba.

What's the passion behind why you're doing this? What's your motivation?

I'll definitely give more as this gets closer, but I will say I found massive benefits in both having a community of people who are thinking differently and, and in performance coaching and in live events, like getting together in person with people. So, like, you know, those three things, I'm like, how do I combine that into one group? And, you know, I don't know. And people always want access to me and it's hard to give because I spend most of my time with my family or working on the podcast. So I thought this would be a way to get people more access to me. So that's kind of the deal. And I know you have your. You have a group as well, so I'm kind of just jealous that you get to hang out with cool people and I don't, so. So I'm gonna make it happen.

How do people get signed up for the behind the beard text?

Wow, look at you letting me plug right here. This is great. Behindthebeard.com behindthebeard.com or actually, that's a good URL for that. I actually don't know if that URL works. It might be just beardybrandon.com I don't know.

Either one will get you, so try behind the Beard. If it doesn't work, go to beardybrandon and look behind the beard yourself. You should get, like, a graphic on the page with, like, a big beard that just comes over the front of it, and they have to click on it, and it pulls the beard aside, and then they get to see all the cool stuff behind it.

It I'm. I'm gonna look at.

That's the first time I've ever, ever given you an idea and said, no, you have to go execute it. It's always the opposite.

Oh, well. Well, thank you. We do have a new logo for behind the Beard. It's like, I. I kind of designed it poorly than I had a real designer make it look good, but it's like the bottom of my beard with, like, the words behind the beard is.

Part of the face. Anyway.

You can check it out. It's. You got to be part of the newsletter, though, the text.

I think it'd be hilarious if you shaved your beard and you had, like, bigger pockets tattooed on your Adam's apple, and nobody had any idea.

And that's. This whole time. That's.

Why is there the logo?

It's like the old logo. The old logo, man. So it's, like, outdated. That's why I grew the beard because Changed their logo, and I'm like, oh, no.

Like, when you get your ex's name tattooed on you and then you're not together anymore.

Yep.

I'm like, why did you change? It was a good logo before. Yeah.

Yeah.

Anyway, that's exactly why I grew the beard. It was around the same time that the logo was changed. Anyway, David, everything good in your world.

Other than the fact that there's not a lot of inventory to sell, it's a little bit tough right now. As the market just keeps getting hotter and hotter. But yeah, that's a pretty good problem to have. Everything is, is really good. I'm stoked to go out to Hawaii in a couple weeks and hang out with you again and, and get some more exercise in.

Yeah, we're gonna do some, some wrestling. It's gonna be a great time. People are like, what's wrong with these guys? A lot, A lot. With that said, David, why don't you get us out of this show? This has been fun. Good outro.

All right.

You got it, man. This is David Green for Brandon Hunger Games Turner signing off.

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