549: Building a $2M Portfolio While Raising 2 Kids w/ Maria Friström

This is the biggerpockets podcast show 549.

Last fall, my husband was like, so it was a dark time for me. My husband's like, what do you. What do you dream of? What would you want to do? And I had lost myself again, like, completely. And I still don't know who I'll be after losing her. I'm still working on that. And I'm like, you know what? That house that we bought six years ago in Fort Collins, I've always dreamt about designing that.

What's going on, everyone? It's Brandon Turner, host of the Biggerpockets podcast, here once again in Las Vegas, Nevada, for a live podcast recording. But David Green is not in Nevada. Sadly, he is in California.

What's up, David?

Not much, brother. I'm a little jealous. You're in a 7,500 square foot suite.

I'm still here. People who listened to the show a week ago would be like, wow, Brandon's been there for a week. No, we are recording both these episodes in one day, which means I still don't have a voice today because I lost it yelling in a Nashville bar last couple days ago. So anyway, today's show, speaking of, I don't know how to connect that to Nashville bar, but speaking of great shows, we've had a lot of them lately, and today is just another phenomenal one in a great line of shows here in the BiggerPockets podcast, the show where we teach people how to invest in real estate so they can obtain the ideal life, or at least a more ideal life than what they maybe have right now. So in other words, we can teach you financial freedom. We're going to teach you literacy, how to set goals, all that stuff. And specifically on today's show, we're talking with a good friend of mine, Maria Freestrom, who's actually here in Vegas, and we're sitting down chatting with her about how she got into real estate, her ability to do it from a very long distance. When you'll hear more about that, because she is not actually from America originally, you're gonna hear about a really heartbreaking and also inspirational story. I think it was the first time in 549 episodes that I've cried and that our guest has cried. So that's a new thing today, and you're gonna hear a lot about financing and more. So all that and more to come. But first, let's get to today's quick tip. Yeah, my voice, I can't do the highs. That's like when I lose my voice, which happens every time I go to a conference. I lose the highs. But today's quick tip is brought to you by David Green. I'm throwing it on you, David, again, one last time.

Today's quick tip is try to find any way that you spend energy, time, money, anything in a way that will get you a return. So, Brandon, you are in Las Vegas right now spending a decent chunk of change to rent out an awesome suite. Now, to most people that is a frivolous expense. It's lost revenue, it's money you don't have anymore. But you're doing it in a way that's going to bring enough value to investors and yourself that it should pay for the suite and, and then some. This is actually an investment for you so you don't have to deny yourself of everything you love. You don't have to spend every single day avoiding that cup of coffee. You want to try to save up enough money, then in 12 years you can finally get the car payment. There's actually a way to get the things you want in life and make sure that they earn you a return. So try to train your brain to look for. If I spend this money on something, how can I make sure that I get a return back on that?

All right, that'll get a quick tip. That kind of reminds me, when I moved up to Hawaii, a friend told me, he's like, I was like, well, it's really expensive there and taxes are high. He's like, listen, when you're in that environment in the good weather and you're happy and there's people coming all the time and like there's awesome people visiting, like do you think you could earn more than what you're paying in taxes to live in that state? And I'm like, oh yeah, probably. And it's totally been true. So that's a great example. Thank you.

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It'S time to get into the interview with my good friend Maria Freestrom. Maria, welcome to the Biggerpockets podcast. How you doing?

Thank you. Thanks for inviting me, especially after I totally insulted you the first time we met.

Did you?

Yeah.

I don't remember this at all.

I knew you wouldn't remember. So it was two years ago in Nashville. BPCON first went around and I end up at a dinner with you at the same table. And at this dinner you like quite vulnerably. What's that? Is that a word? Yes, in a vulnerable way. Share something about you and that is that you hate your voice.

Okay, this is true.

This is true.

Especially when I lost it because I can't talk.

Fast forward the day after you have your keynote and after you come up to me and you're like, all right, so what do you think? How did it go? And I'm like, well, it was great. If only your voice wasn't so terrible. And I mean, what?

You're a horrible person.

But you laughed. Because I knew you would laugh. And you know what?

That led to me leaving the BiggerPockets podcast. It all started then. That was when the journey started, wasn't it, David? I told you that day. I said, today I'm gonna give my two year notice on the podcast. And that's how it all ended. It was your fault that I'm leaving. So if anybody's wondering why my episodes are coming to an end soon, now we know.

Sorry, guys. It's okay.

You know what, Maria? That was karma coming Brandon's way. And I appreciate you being the delivery system for that, because the first time that Brandon and I hung out, we were actually in Canada. And we sat down and he said, you know, there's a lot of things you got going for you, David, but you really need to lose some weight and learn how to dress. That was the first.

I did not say it that way.

He denies it to this day.

I do not say it that way. I simply said, if you didn't wear pajamas to a millionaire club, you might build some better relationships or something like that.

But you like to hear it up straight. You don't like to have yes men around you, David.

Yeah, that's why we became friends. I like this guy, but he did call me fat and slovenly dressed, so I do like that you gave Brandon a taste of his own medicine for me. And ever since then, he's probably developed a little bit of class when he's delivering his insults.

Yeah, maybe a little bit. Well, anyway, thank you for coming today. I do feel a little weird. For Those watching the YouTube version of this, it is very rare that I am looking shorter than the person next to me. And even more rare when that person is non male and non male.

I'm going to start using that.

That's good. You are tall. You're not actually as tall as me, but you sit way more upright than I do.

It's my ballet background.

There you go. All right, so let's get into your background, but not your ballet background.

How did you get into real estate investing?

I'm kind of a monkey. I've been all over. I've lived in four countries and worked in four countries over three continents. I've changed my career.

Why would you travel a lot?

Is that the monkey gym? You know, it's like the kids kind of career. They go from one job to another.

Okay, okay, I got it.

Yeah. So I've changed my career majorly three times before I got into real estate investing full time.

What else did you do?

So I've done physical therapy in Finland. I've been a golf coach in Hong Kong. I do not play golf. That's a story for another time. And I've worked at a brand experience agency in Stockholm, Sweden. And the last job that I had was I worked five years at a comms agency. That's a creative communications agency in Silicon Valley in California. And that's, I mean, it was a job. I got to work with such amazing people, super smart, some of the world's biggest brands, thought leaders, creatives, and I loved it. But then one day in 2015, I found myself in the massage room of that company and I'm stuck to this machine that's just.

Sucking the beauty and the glory out of me. And it was a breast pump. So I'm sitting there and I have a tube top on that's like a hands free type of thing. I don't know if you've seen it anywhere. I've seen them, right? So I'm able to type at the same time because I couldn't take 15 minutes off just to do nothing. So I'm sitting there, you gotta be productive. Ah, yeah. So like milk's playing everywhere, it's on the computer. And I'm like, at the same time, my five month old baby, he's at some sort of $2,000 a month baby kennel. And I'm like, what am I doing in this jungle, right? So at that moment, I had bought my first property at that point, but that was in the US So that was the defining moment where I'm like, okay, I need to do something about my freedom and real estate is the way that I'm going to go about doing that.

Yeah, okay, Where'd you buy, was that just a house you lived in then?

Well, no, that would be too easy.

That would be too easy.

So to give you a little bit of background, my husband and I, we both come from like very regular families. He's number five out of 10 kids and I come from a big family. We're four kids. And at one point my mom, she's physically disabled, so we had a hard time at moments. At one point we couldn't afford milk so we had to like make milk out of powder. So just to give you a little bit of background there. So Visa. My husband and I, for like 10 to 15 years we've been saving up, working away, renting ourselves and saving up our money to buy our own home. And at this point we're like 34. And so one day I'm like, hey honey, instead of buying our own home, I'm going to buy this house. Sight Unseen in this place called Fort Collins, Colorado. And we lived in California, and we're going to put all of our savings into it. Is that cool?

Why Fort Collins? Why'd you pick that?

So it all started with. I had a financial advisor that I got through work who's amazing. Thank you, Josh. He advised me that you're getting killed on taxes. You need to do something about that. And he had some properties in Fort Collins. And so I looked into Fort Collins. So I did a few things. I did my due diligence. I'm like, is this a place that people like to live in? And it hit, like, all kinds of top 10 list, best place to retire, happiest people. Yeah. And definitely had, like, what do you call it? Like, positive. People are moving in more than moving out. So it's a growing place. There's a university. And do you know that that's where.

I met Heather, was in Fort Collins.

That's right.

We met.

You told me.

We went. We met and we went on a date. Our first date was to Big City Burrito. I think it was in Fort Collins. It's like downtown by the.

Yeah, I haven't been.

It's cute. Anyway, keep going. Fort Collins, good place.

Magical place.

Magical things happen in Fort Collins.

So basically, since I lived in California, I had gone there just randomly for. For business, went to Denver. I extended that trip, went to Fort Collins, and I met with a realtor, and. And he helped me look at some properties. So, you know, it sounds so easy when I'm like, oh, and then I just bought this property and, like, body. But. But it took, I think, a couple years before I actually put something under contract. This was six years ago. The market was hot. I bought it from a investor who was exiting because he thought it was too hot, but I wasn't even on the train. So I'm like, this is a deal for me. It's cash flowed a little, like 100 bucks a month. But I saw the potential. And for me, like, number one was tax reasons.

Yeah.

So I bought it sight unseen. But that was, like, the number five property that I put offers on. So it was. It was a hot market back then.

What was the hubby thinking at this point?

Well, you know what? At this point, I think he was too busy with his work and his career that he's just like, you know what? I. You know, I think I trust you, and I'm a little afraid, but okay, let's do it. Yeah.

Can you share a little bit about. You said you bought it for Tax purposes, how that worked out.

Yeah. So we made pretty good money in California. And, David, as you know, taxes are pretty high there.

Ouch.

So we had zero things that we could write off because we didn't have kids at that point and we didn't own anything. So now that we owned property, we were able to. To write that part off.

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of benefits. I mean, I know people who deliberately just buy real estate just offset their taxes. In fact, I was talking to a guy the other day who makes a ton of money online, and he's also a real estate guy, and he said he just works backwards every year to buy the amount of real estate needed to make sure his tax bill is zero. Like, it's the whole depreciation. Do you.

Yeah.

How much money you buy?

Yep. I do spend a lot of time on tax optimization and being smart about that. So I actually got a tax. Is that refund this year?

Wow, look at you.

Yeah.

It's weird.

I know when I was, like, not buying a lot of real estate, this is like four or five years ago, I was just making money from bigger pockets, you know, book sales and whatever else. And then there was like, a year I didn't buy hardly anything. Yeah. I had, like, $100,000 tax bill or some crazy amount like that. I was like, this is nuts. And then, like, now, ever since I started really heavily three years ago, buying a lot of real estate now, like, yeah, I pay zero taxes and make a lot more. Which, again, that's the thing David and I, David, you've been stressing is we don't want to tell the world that we want to keep that secret, but this is like an investor club. Yeah. You don't get. You don't get the rest of the world. Listen to this podcast was. Okay, this clip will not go on social media because we do not want the world to know how good this is.

It's more so that I don't like it being portrayed like we're gloating that we don't have to pay taxes, that you're actually acknowledging that there's work and risk that's going into this. And the trade off is you can correct taxes if you do it right.

Yeah. And can I add to that, David? I. I believe it might have been Ryan Holiday who talked about that. He's like, he's trying to change his mind about taxes, that he actually enjoys paying them. And that's one thing that I worked on. So even though I try to optimize them I. I still try to find joy in paying it, especially in Finland where you say where it goes, where you actually get, you know, free education and healthcare. And especially as in the past couple years, I've, you know, use the ambulance a couple of times and. And just giving birth is, Is. Is just something that makes you appreciate that.

That makes sense. Yeah. So what happened after that? You bought that first property. Where'd you go next?

Yeah, so after my lactation epiphany there.

And so maybe that's the title. That's the title of the episode. The Lactation Epiphany. That could be your book. You could write a book and call it that.

Can you? Do you want to write a book with me?

We're gonna write a book called the Lactation Epiphany.

What about, like Lactation Imagination?

How my mind was open during this event.

Yeah, that sounds like a band.

Yeah, it kind of does, actually. It's like Imagine Dragons. But anyway, keep going. All right.

My son's favorite band.

It's early.

So after the lactation epiphany, we moved back to Finland.

Okay.

And that meant that I had to quit my job that I loved and made good money from. And all of a sudden I find myself in the burbs of Helsinki.

I don't want to say jobless, because being a mom is hard work. So I was incomeless and I have an 8 month old and I was pregnant again. So.

It was lonely. I felt so lonely. And I kind of lost myself, lost my identity because I had that tied up in the identity in diapers. Yeah. But it was tied to my identity of being the account manager at this blow and driving my fancy car and eating out like the catwalks. And.

So I'm like. So I had to make up for it so quickly. I'm like, I need. All right, Real estate investing. Right. That was my plan. I'm going to do it. So I started doing it from the money standpoint. I'm like, I'm going to make up. I'm going to make as much passively through real estate that I did through my job to make up, like, to make up the salary. So I started hustling and in a couple years.

I built.

A 2 multi million. Sounds so much better.

But it was multi million dollar, like.

A $2 million portfolio at the same time as I had our second and third baby. And I started a real estate investing company during that time as well. And I. Have you ever seen a hamster wheel?

Sure.

But like, the hamster's dead. The wheel's turning, but the hamster is dead. Yeah. So I was like.

I just go in the motions. And the kids were in daycare from like 8 to 5, and my husband was traveling 150 days. And I'm like, dude, I got some level of freedom because I had a pretty nice portfolio and, you know, we did well, but I had completely lost it because I had built the job for myself. So I was kind of miserable again.

Yeah.

All right, so before we go to the next phase then of how you maybe solve that, maybe you didn't. We'll find out. Stay tuned. But first, the word from our sponsor. I'm kidding. No. So what did you, like, what was this portfolio like? I mean, you bought where. Where was it at? What were you buying? What types were you buying? What made up that $2 million?

Yeah, I started buying in Finland, right. So that was a brand new market for me. I hadn't lived in Finland, so I was born in Finland, but I only lived there five years. And then my family moved to Sweden, so I knew nothing. I had no network. I hadn't lived there for 10 years at that point. And so I started looking into. I read a ton of books and did what they told me to do. So one of the things they said was, you know, buy apartments in good places that are small and rentable. And.

I bought my first one in a satellite stated to Helsinki, like a downtown. Okay.

Yep.

Yeah. And, you know, I was an incomeless stay at home mom at this point. So going to the bank was interesting because, like, awesome candidate for getting a loan. Not.

Yeah.

How did that go? Like, I mean, like, what, what are loans like to buy in Finland? I know that doesn't benefit most of our audience, but I'm just curious, like, what does that. What is it like to get a mortgage? What kind of loans do they give? Like, what's it like?

Yeah, so it's kind of the same as here. So even though it's a very different market in many ways, like, the principles are the same. And even when it comes to banking, the one thing that will piss people off that I do have to mention though is two things. Closing can be done in like two days. Really? Yes. We don't have like all that paperwork. The other thing is I pay like 0.7, like interest. Interest rate.

0.7?

Yeah. For 20 to 25 year old. Year old.

Yeah.

Year.

Yeah.

That's. That's incredibly low.

Why?

Like, I've heard of negative interest rates in like, Denmark was negative.

Right.

But like, I Mean, I thought I got a 2.9 the other day on a, on an apartment complex, but 0.7.

Yeah. So basically it is negative, but what you pay for is the margin, the part that the bank makes money off. Right?

Yeah. Crazy. Is that just because they're trying to get more people to buy, is it just an incentive to get. So the government keeps it really, really low?

Yeah. So. And it's not just a Finland thing, it's a Europe thing because, you know, the Finnish banking system is driven by the European Central Bank.

Okay.

Yeah. So you buy these properties. So what did you end up? Did you save up the down payment for them or did you get a little more creative?

Yeah, I had to get creative. Right. Because I didn't have my job anymore. And so I started consulting those ones. So I got a little bit of income from that, started consultancy and then.

I pitched it to partners. So I've gotten money in three different ways that I can go through a little later if you want to, but this was number one. So I knew that I needed, was it 20 or maybe in dollars, 30, $30,000.

So I pitched it to my brother and to my husband. But my brother sees me as this surfer girl who calls him from Bali 20 years ago, going like, hey, dude, I'm all out of money, can you send me some? That's how he remembers me. So I'm like, how can I change that belief? So I spent a while to think about, okay, who is he? Who's my husband. And both of them are, they've got good jobs, but they're engineers. So I'm like, I'm going to talk to them in their love language, which is Excel. So here's what I did. I created an Excel and it was massive. On one side, my brother also invests in the stock market. So on one side I put his return, I took like, all right, so if you invest in the stock market here, the average return over a few years is this or even just an index level return. And I, I pulled that over 5, 10, 15, up to 30 years. On the right hand side of that, I showed what he would be making if he instead invested that money in me and my real estate investing. So calculated, used some metrics like appreciation and obviously the use of leverage, how that impacts the cash flow and inflation and that sort of thing. So I had a few things that I added in. So instead of saying, hey dude, can you lend your sis 20k?

Which is how most people treat it.

Which is how, Right. But I'm like, this is a business acquisition. So I pitched him not as the sister or my husband, as the wife, but as, like, the business owner. Yeah. So I showed him. Here's how much more you'll be making with me.

Yeah.

As opposed to.

That's such a. What I want to pull out here is just this important idea of, like, love languages.

Right.

Or, like, certain people. Like, there's a book called the what five love languages. Right. And some people respond different ways. Like, there's, like, physical touch, and some people like gift giving or receiving gifts. And there's, like, different love languages when it comes to relationships. The same is true for when you pitch an investor.

Yeah. Any meeting. Really.

Yeah, any meeting. Like, there is a way that people want to receive information and a way people want to deliver information. And so knowing your investor, knowing your audience, like you said, they're an engineer. They like Excel. They like that data. And so that's a great way to pitch it. And then if you were talking to somebody that was not that side, which I would guess that, I don't know, 80% of people are probably not that way. I would guess. Right. If you're not an engineer or a math nerd, you're probably more of a show me some pretty charts and colors and graphs. It makes people feel really good. Which is why, one reason on the bigger pockets, calculators, we do both. Right. We have, like, the bottom, we have all the details, but the top, it's like, here's pretty colors and it sounds stupid, but, like, either way, when you appeal to somebody in their love language or their investing language, I don't know what you name for that. Their cash flow language, then. Yeah. Your chance of getting a deal accepted or a partner brought in is just so much greater. And it's like that how you do anything is how you do everything.

Yep.

And so you put the effort in to even learn how they respond, how they react, but also to actually know your numbers, and then they're more likely. So I'm guessing the end of the story there is. He did. Like, your brother brought some cash.

Yeah, I got both of them on. And later on, when I started the LLC or the investing company, they both came on as partners in that as well. Okay.

Yeah.

And this applies to. I mean, any partners you bring on. Like, it doesn't be family. It can be, but I think it's even more important for family, though, to treat it.

Yeah. I was just going to say. So if you're listening to this and thinking like, well, I don't have a Husband or a brother that has good jobs or money or whatever. Well, you don't have to. It's actually harder to ask and friends to be a part of that.

It is super hard.

Yeah. Yeah.

I would much rather pitch a random stranger, which is probably why I've raised what, a hundred million dollars And I've never once pitched my, like my family. Well, I did. My dad was on my first two deals and it was the hardest conversation to have. Like, dad, I trying to refinance a house and I can't.

Can you?

Can you, Can I put you on the mortgage and then we refinance it and he was cool with it and now he's got his retirement like padded because of it. So it was good for him. But that's an awkward conversation with family. It's a lot easier with, with friends. One thing that I do, a tip I've shared a number of times, but it's always served me well, is instead of directly asking people because I'm like a high, I, I don't like to be rejected. I kind of do the passive aggressive way, right? I'll be like. Or the passive way, I'm like, hey, do you know anybody who would be interested in lending on this? And it gives people that opportunity to be like, actually I might be interested, but if they don't, they'll be like, no. I don't know, I'll keep an ear out. And then you know that they are saying no, but you don't have to have the confrontation. So that's a non confrontational way to raise money that I've used.

But I like that tip.

Yeah, yeah.

All the high eyes out there just had little light bulbs pop over your head. That could work.

Well, that's also why I would always tell my tenants I was a property manager. It's a true statement. I was managing the property. I was a property manager. I also owned it though. But my wife, well, technically it was owned by like an llc, right? And then my wife and I were the owners on the llc. So I would say things either like, I'm just a property manager. I'll check with the owner. Like, can I have a dog? I'll check with the owner. Which meant my wife or you know, sorry, Yeah, I talked to the owner and they said, you know, they're kind of a jerk. They said, you couldn't have a dog. But you know what, I'm, I'm still fighting for you, but I'll let you know if that changes. Right.

Hi.

I. Brandon doesn't have to deal with being like, I'm the bad guy. Now David, on the other hand, he'll walk in there and be like, yeah, I'm the owner, and no, you can't have your dog and I'm taking your tv. And then he walks out. That's David.

Okay, so let me put in a third example, because I'm like, even different from both of you. So what I started doing in Finland was I noticed landlords have kind of a bad rep in Finland. Right. So were seen as these vultures that take people's money and all that. Like, maybe even, like, slumlord type of situation. So I saw an opportunity there. And then the other opportunity that I saw, I'm like, the apartments that are up for rent are terrible. Like, they're not. They look like they were designed by, you know, no one. So my business idea was like, I want to. And this is going to sound mushy, especially to David, who's going to roll his eyes. I, I, I wanted to create homes with heart and do landlording with love. So I like this. It has a ring to it.

So that's good.

So what that means is so I'm actually really open and tell about, you know, who owns this apartment and who we are and tell a little bit about us and our family and kids and like, all that. So. Yeah, but that's cool. It comes with the hard parts.

Yes, it does. It does come up. That's when you just. My husband said, I can't. Like, my wife says, I can't. Yeah.

Let me interject real quick before we move on. If no one knows what we're talking about when we say hi, I look up on bigger pockets. Disc profile D I, S, C. I wrote an article for BiggerPockets that describes. It's a personality assessment that talks about the dominant traits in someone's personality.

Do you want to run through it just the quick. What does each one mean? Just so people are aware.

Yeah. So they all relate to a component of a personality. We all have them, but in different people, they're in different amounts. So your D score is your decisiveness or your dominance. That's how quickly you make a decision in an environment you've never been. These are the people that my, My D score is very high. That are comfortable being in environments that we haven't been before and making decisions. But we often act like bulls in a china store that, like, I can hurt people's feelings without even knowing that I did it. So that's the what D traits are known For I scores is your interactive score. This is how much you like being around people. They very much want to be like. They're typically your social butterflies. They're the ones that everyone loves. They like to have fun, they make everything nice. But they can be a little more sensitive towards rejection. And they're often not as analytical, just a tad. Right. So eyes are the china that my D tends to break when I get around. Like, those are people that I can clash with if I'm not careful. Your S score is your stability score. That's the pace that you like to experience life at and the consistency. So high S's do not like change. They don't like things getting thrown at them that they didn't expect. You'll often hear high S's say, well, no one told me or I thought the plan was fill in the blank. That's another one that Ds will often clash with because I can Change my mind four times in the 30 minutes about what we're going to do. And that can be very difficult to S's who are getting used to what the plan is going to be. They tend to be the most loyal people that you'll ever work with with. They don't like conflict. They tend to smooth everything out and they don't speak up for themselves as often. So esses will take abuse and take abuse and take abuse, and then finally they just snap and you're like, whoa, where did that come from? But they were like, it's been three years.

Yeah, I'm a high. I'm a high is.

I'm high. I highest. So Brandon isn't going to tell me if I'm doing something that irritates him. He's not going to want to upset us.

Right.

So knowing that I have to proactively dig with Brandon and say, hey, have I pissed you off lately? Or what am I doing that's irritating you? And like, yeah, you know, it's not anything that. Okay, there's something there. I got to go a little bit more.

I got you, David. I'm ID.

So I'm like, Di's and IDs tend to be the best salespeople in almost every industry. Like the top real estate agents, officers. They're always the greatest salespeople because they. They take massive action. That's what these are known for. And they love to be around people. Like, I am a good business owner but not a great salesperson because interactions with humans wears me out. That's probably going to come up later in this podcast. As we can talk about how that shows up and then your high C score. Like, we have a friend, Andrew Cushman, and his nickname is high C because he's super analytical. This is your conscientiousness score. I need my analytical people. These are the ones that we all like. Oh, thank God we have one of them. They love spreadsheets, they love formulas, they love analyzing things. These are engineers, architects, doctors, lawyers, mechanics. People who love to kind of take the chaos of the world and create order out of it. They put a lot of attention to detail. The job they do is incredibly important to them. Bookkeepers, CPAs, right. They know all these rules, but they can be a little tone deaf. Their I score is often lower, so they don't get along with people as well. Like, this is the awkward genius that can sit in the cubicle in the back and write code that we could never understand. But they show up with like pizza stains on their shirt every day. Can understand why they don't have a girlfriend. That's like your C score. So you want to know more about that? I wrote an article on this. Four Bigger Pockets. You can go check it out for some.

Yeah, we'll put a link in the show notes. I don't know what show number this is, but whatever it is, we'll put a link in the show notes, BiggerPockets.com show and then the number. But I'll look it up in a minute. All right, let's move on. So you said here you built this portfolio, but now you're like still working a ton to manage all these properties. What came next in your story?

Yeah, so I had lost the freedom. Right. I was working away and it was because I was afraid of giving up control.

Been there.

Yeah, your story jives with me.

So then 2020 happened, and 2020 was hard for all of us and especially for our family. And I'm going to start crying, but I love talking about this, so I hope you're okay with.

You'll make me cry. Yeah, I know it's coming.

So I got pregnant again.

With our third baby, Millie. And pretty early on we found out that it was a high risk pregnancy. So I couldn't be building stuff anymore because I used to diy. I was going to say shiz.

So I used to do everything myself. So for the first time, I had to. I had two massive projects going on at this time. My biggest flip and another project. So I had to hire it out. So my friend Jenny, who's a gc, she took both projects on fully, and I needed to spend time with Millie. So she. Early on, they. They thought that she might have something called trisomy 13. But then in the. In the middle of the pregnancy, I didn't want to do the test to find out, but in the middle of the pregnancy, we found out. It was confirmed that she did, in fact, have trisomy 13. And for you guys that don't know, that means.

They don't live long.

So.

They told us that she would probably make it for a few weeks. So we were expecting her to come. So I spent a lot of time just focusing inwards and pausing. And in October, she was born. And it was a beautiful day, but also the hardest day of my life because her heart wasn't beating anymore. So Millie was stillborn.

And she was supposed to be our rainbow baby. And for you guys who don't know what that means, it means the baby that comes after loss. Because prior to Millie, we had lost three babies at earlier stages, and one of them was an ectopic pregnancy that almost took my life. So it had been a couple rough years, and for the first time.

I needed to be brave for Millie, to give her a chance, and she.

Made us. So right after her funeral last fall, my husband was like. So it was a dark time for me. My husband's like, what do you dream of? What would you want to do? And I had lost myself again completely. And I still don't know who I'll be after losing her. I'm still working on that. And I'm like, you know what? That house that we bought six years ago in Fort Collins, I've always dreamt about designing that because that was one thing that helped me during grief was design, like doing art and doing beautiful things. So because I was on maternity leave and I didn't have a baby, so my arms. There's this thing called empty. What's that called? Like, empty arm syndrome. So my arms ached, so I needed to do something. So art helped me. So I'm like, Fort Collins, Colorado. And that was a big thing for us. Our lives were in Finland at this point, so. And my husband's work was there. So we started thinking about that. And in July of this year, we took the leap. We moved to Fort Collins for an epic family adventure. And just enjoying the plateau, if you will, like, enjoying the freedom that we had already gained but kind of forgot in the pace of moving forward, chasing our dreams. We're like, well, actually, we kind of made it. Can we take a moment?

So in the end, Millie Ended up being a rainbow baby, just in a different way. She just helps us, like, reminds us to see the rainbow and to like, pause. Yeah, yeah. So that's where we're at now. We're back in Fort Collins, kind of the circle is completed and the kids are with us all day, every day.

And it's awesome and it's intense and it's hard because we're at the same time we're living, flipping this house. Right. So it's. It's the 23, 000 square foot single family home that, that we're now.

23,000?

Yeah, I mean, 2300. Okay. I was like, 23, 000. That's a, that's a.

That sounds like royalty in Finland.

Oh, she didn't mention she was the Finnish queen.

Yes, exactly.

Is there a queen in Finland? I don't know. Is that a thing?

No, we have a precedent, but okay. No, I'm sorry, not a female president. I would take that, but yeah, the prime minister is female.

A non female.

A non female president, but a non male prime minister. Yeah.

Oh, okay.

That was a lot heavy.

Heavy. Yeah, I.

But also a lot of lights.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, there's a lot of love in that story for me.

Well, I remember you posting about it after it happened on Social and like, man, like, I just feel for you. Like, my wife and I were just like. I mean, we did cry for you and.

Thank you.

It's a terrible thing.

And you know, because of Rosie and what happened, like, the end result was different for you, but you know the feeling like when you're at the doctors.

And you're like, yeah, something I wouldn't want to wish on Worst Enemy, but yeah.

Thank you.

Come here, Come here. No, no, no, you can't just not hug that one out.

Can I just share? I don't know. I told Heather this so when I was in Maui just recently, your son came up to me and he kind of just went straight for me and just hugged me. And I kind of think that he maybe thought that I was Heather because I just saw legs. But also there's a part of me, like babies have a connection. Like, he was up there not too long ago. So. Yeah. So thank you to him for that.

That's cool, that's cool. All right, well, let's. Okay, let's talk, let's talk. I want to get some advice from you for the, for the audience, for those people listening. We'll start with some real estate stuff. People who are in your shoes and they're saying, like, I don't have a lot of money right now. The market's crazy. I gotta start doing this thing. What's the first thing they should do? I mean, like, what would you advise for somebody who's just getting started right now?

I had the pleasure of working with JJ Abrams in Silicon Valley, and he's legit. Legit?

Yeah.

That guy's like, yeah, yeah. So he's legit because he's very good at what he does. But this story is about why I think he's successful. And it happened. He was about to go on stage, and my team was backstage to help all the presenters. And it's a few minutes before, and his presentation keeps crashing because obviously he has a lot of video material in there. Right. So our art director, Kevin steps up and it's like, obviously high, high. What's that called? Stress.

He saves the moment. So he fixes the presentation. And instead of JJ just jumping up, he was a couple minutes late for his presentation, his keynote, like 5,000 people in the audience. He pauses and he goes around the entire room. He hugs Kevin and then he goes through everybody in the room. We were maybe like 10 in there and shakes everybody's hand, looks us in the eyes and he goes, thank you. That's cool. And I think that just taught me, like, be an effing pleasure to work with. Right? So you need to know yourself. That's basic. Like, you need to approach people with some kind of value in terms of, like you always say, you need to have time, you need to have hustle, you need to have some sort of knowledge or you need to have money. But if you don't have money, then always make sure that you're really cool to be around. Yes, I think that's. That's my number one.

All right, that's good.

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A sandwich lease to my insurance guy once and he just blinked at me like I made it up. And that's sort of the thing, right? Most insurance companies don't understand how we invest. You go vacant for a few weeks, you switch strategies, you hold stuff in an llc, and suddenly your coverage doesn't fit. That's why I recommend National Real Estate Insurance Group. They actually get real estate investors. Their coverage adjusts as your property changes. And you get one monthly bill for everything, no matter how weird your portfolio is. You can check them out@nreig.com bppod that's nreig.com bppod.

All right, just some more questions. You know, we talked a bit about heartbreak on this episode, and I want to talk about another heartbreak. And that was David's heartbreak. Who wants to tell that story?

Well, I can tell it, but it was the other way around.

Oh, was it?

Okay, okay.

I'm the heartbroken.

See, I thought I heard David was heartbroken over.

Okay, well, maybe, maybe if he was, I don't know.

Okay, let's hear this.

Oh, man. Another story of Nashville. Okay. A lot of things happen in Nashville, man.

What happens in Nashville gets told on a podcast.

Yeah.

I'm like, what happens here in Vegas?

All right, all right. So I'm in Nashville. I meet David for the first time. I shake his hand, tell my name, and afterwards I reached back out to him and he does not remember ever meeting me. Yeah. So that's like a little bit. Okay. But it continues. Okay, so, David, you gave a keynote that day. I think you had flown all night. Remember that? Something happened with your flight?

The flight was delayed and I had to stay at a hotel. And you got like an hour of sleep and then showed up right before I had to speak.

Yep. So me, you know, the kind person as I am, reached out to you. And I'm like, so, okay. It was great meeting you, David. I used to work at the, you know, the world's leading presentation agency in Silicon Valley. Do you mind if I, like, would you want some pointers and some feedback on your keynote presentation? And you, you know, as a person who loves to grow, you're like, yeah, I'd love to. So I'm like, David responded, oh, my God. So he doesn't remember. That's fine. But he responded. So I type up this essay to you, of all the things like, here's. This was great. Here's something you can work on, and blah, blah, blah, crickets.

And my husband's like, dude, what did you do? You just ruined your career. You're blacklisted from everything from now on. And I'm like, oh, God. And.

Here'S a part that you don't know, David, and nobody knows, really. So I don't hear in a few days about this. I'm at my friend's Liana's in Stockholm, Sweden, and I have.

The day you actually write me back is the day I have found out that the pregnancy, the baby that was expecting then in week 10, the heart wasn't beating. So I'm crushed. And you respond this day and you say, maria, do you remember what you wrote me? It's okay if you say no.

Yeah.

I don't want to get details of it. Yeah. So you wrote, maria, this is probably the best thing I have ever read in my life. So just that kindness. I'm going to cry again. No, it was a hard day for me, obviously. So just a piece of kindness can do so much. So thank you for that. Yeah.

Wow, that's really good.

I think that's probably a situation Brandon and I find ourselves in more times than we would like to with all the things that we have going on. And that's why I'm saying it's.

It's.

You feel like. Or I feel like a bull in a china shop a lot of the time. Because I did remember meeting you, Maria. In fact, I remember in Nashville, you were with investor girl Brit and a few other ladies on your way out.

And non, non males.

A few other males. And you guys were heading out to dinner and I was going somewhere else, and it was like, we're getting canceled over this show.

David and I turned around and Brittany was there and a bunch of the rest of you were there. And I do remember seeing you, but I couldn't remember your name, which is also a common thing where you see someone's face. You're like, oh, yeah, they're all over bigger pockets. But I don't remember where I know them from. So I did remember you. I just didn't want to get sucked into a conversation where it's going to be obvious that I'm like, hey, you. Right, One of those things. And then when you gave me the feedback on the speech, it was very long. It was probably like three bubbles, log of information. So it's hard for me to be able to read through all that, still think of a thoughtful response. And so I probably just read it. Wasn't able to get back to it right away.

Do you remember what you told David? What did he suck at?

Do you want me to go through a seminar? I do remember.

Okay, what did David, what did David need to improve on? Because, okay, public speaking is a thing that you have to do when you're a real estate investor. You don't have to, but a lot of us do, whether it's, yeah, at a conference or just pitching your, your friend or whatever. So help us improve.

Well, I can, I can give you one thing that I told David and.

It was, notice I didn't ask you to say anything about me because I'm a high.

I.

So I, I told you that.

Let's dissect David on the show.

Let's look at David. Said he can handle it. He's a d. He's good.

I told David that.

I can tell that he's so passionate about this, but that level of passion can come across as aggression when he's on stage, that he's so intense on there. So I told him to slow down a little bit and soften it up. And this is important for everybody, and especially maybe Americans to.

Bring contrast. So, like, sometimes be a little quiet and slow down and then you can come back and be like. And that contrast is key in keeping the audience's attention. First you need to grab it and then you need to hold it. And the holding is a difficult part. And that's where the contrast comes in. And the other part was, I think I told you to stand still a little more and pick one person and look in their eyes for three seconds because that gives a sense of empathy to the audience. So if you look at one person, it makes everybody feel like you're talking to them. It's weird, but it's true. And three seconds feels like a long ass time for the speaker, but it's not for the audience trying to do it right now.

I'm like.

Okay, that's Good. And I was gonna say, notice how she didn't correct my speech. But then I realized that's how we started this interview. Would you tell me how horrible I sounded? So we don't need to go there. We're not going to rehash that anymore. I want to go back into real estate a little bit and some topics here. Specifically, I want to talk about finding money today, like raising money or finding money getting mortgage, getting loans. What have you found works with that? What have you had success with?

You want to get into my. My sweet, sweet four steps of getting a loan the Maria way.

Do you. You have them? Do you have a little trademark on that? I hope you do.

You have a.

You have a jingle and a trademark on it.

I can work on the jingle if you work on like the. What's that called? The abbreviation?

Yeah, I can do the acronyms. I'm pretty good at acronyms. And Dave will give you an analogy. Yeah, it'll be perfect. All right, so you got the jingle, I got the acronym.

Okay.

What is the four?

The four.

All right, so this is how I secured a 550,000 bank loan for a newly started LLC with no income. And as a stay at home mom. Okay, Boom. And it's something that everybody can do. Number one, I'm going into the bank.

Bring your baby who's 10 month old, and then forget that you bring that baby. So I'm pitching. I'm so into the pitching. My baby Stella is like under the table. And when I'm done pitching, I look under and she has ran havoc in my purse. Like all of my stuff. There's food everywhere. Even. What do you call it? Like a feminine pad? Like, you know, so if she's ripped out a feminine pad, it's like stuck to the banker's shoe. And he's like, is this yours? Like, super. So start. Start with that.

I can do that.

Yeah. Number two, here's where we get into the real stuff.

Number one was bring your 10 month old baby and forget him. You. Okay, what, what's the second one?

Number two, and you touched on this. It's. You have got to get to know your audience. Like, put on. Yeah, what, what's what's his name? Magnum PI Put those pants on.

I don't know. I'm not that old.

Right. Okay, so what are they, like, the person you're talking to? So for me, what's a banker like? I asked around people who had worked with him before. I stalked his Facebook. I saw that he had kids. I Saw pictures of them. Like, I knew that he would be okay with me bringing a baby in there. He'd have empathy there. So what keeps him up at night? Well, when it comes to a bank, it's always risk. How can I mitigate that? So I came in with like a 20 page business plan. And a huge part of that was a risk mitigation plan. All right, what's my exit strategy? How do I get around like a market crash while I buy under market price? And so I had like a few key things. And how can you solve their problems? Is a big one. And how can you make them shine? And I love the way you talk about this, David. In your Burr book, you'll go into specific details. When it comes to a bank, is it a small bank? Do they need more liquidity to be able to give out more loans? Do you have a friend with money that can start saving there? Can you start saving there? So I opened up an account with them. Even though I didn't need it, I started putting money in there every month. And also I'm like, what's the KPI that he gets measured on? Probably selling a lot of other crap. So I'm like, I bought everything. So he's like, here's this thing. I'm like, I'll get it. Yes, gimme. So I spent like maybe, I don't know, 100 or a thousand dollars on just, you know, buying all the extra stuff just to make him look good and also introduce him to a bunch of other investors.

Ah, that's a good idea.

So that he got more business. And what do you want them to do? Right. So I went in, I'm like, I want the money, but I just, I don't want just that. I want a partner. Right. I want a bank that can grow with me. So think about that when you go in then. And also think about how will they resist and how can you best reach them. So this is the same thing, right? What's their choice of medium? Do I bring in Excel? Yes, to a bank, always bring in Excel. Bring a lot of hockey sticks. Right. And then with the hockey stick, I mean, exactly the graph that goes up and you know, here's the plan for how I'm going to make the business grow and how you're going to be making a lot of money off of me.

Yeah, I like that idea of.

Yeah.

Thinking about, like if that their biggest concern is risk, right?

Yeah.

And that's gonna be always there. Like a bank's job, like they make money by lending out money because it was such a thing I didn't understand earlier in my career is like, banks are not guarding money. Like, it's like the Harry Potter vault, you know, like, they're not like, yeah, some of them act that way, but like they. The only way a bank survives is by lending out money. That is what they do. And the more they do it, the more money they make and the more they make it more in bonuses, in their job. Like, they make money by lending money. So they want to do. They're on your side. If you can get, like, convince them. And that's like you said, it's how you present it, what media you do, what your risk mitigation plan is, all that. All right, so that's, that's good.

Know your audience.

Yeah. Can I give one last example on that? That's very specific. So in Finland, we use a lot of ARM loans, so adjustable rate mortgages, as opposed to. We don't have like a 30 year fixed as an option. So I showed up with a plan for what will happen if the rates go up to 1%, 3%, 6%, and a plan for each. So I think that's one thing. If you do use ARMS or you know, any other type of risk scenario that you're in in your market, come with a plan for each of them.

Very cool. All right.

You know, that sort of ties back to the disc model. We should highlight that.

Yeah, it does.

Yeah.

You want to present information to other people in the way that they value. So an Excel spreadsheet that shows risk mitigation is very powerful to a high C. Who's looking at that? And that's probably your decision maker. No, like bringing their favorite kind of Bundt cake isn't going to be as big of a deal to a high C as to the high I, who may be like the sales rep that gets you the meeting with the high C. So tailoring your approach to the values of the person you're talking to will always get you further than just doing for someone else what you would want done for yourself. Assuming everyone's like you.

Yeah. And also maybe to challenge that a little bit, David, or add to it is even though a person is driven by data, all decisions are made through an emotional connection because that's the part of the brain that drives us. So even though you don't think that. And that brings us to number three. Define how you're going to transform the audience, and that includes how they feel about you. So everybody, when you come into a room and you're about to pitch or have a meeting or whatever, they think something and they feel something about who you are and figure that out. Think about that. What do they think about you when you walk in? And what do you want them to think when you head out? All right, so to give you an example of what I did.

I was pretty sure they're going to look at me and go like, all right, oh, gosh, this is a brand new llc. And instead I wanted them to think like, she's an experienced investor. Because at this point, I had already built a $2 million portfolio. Then I thought, how can I make them see that? Well, I brought in a massive Excel where I showed all my deals with 20 metrics for each. And he's like, whoa, not even engineers come in with this.

So I'm like, I moved him over. Number two, they're going to see a risk of default. We had $2,500 at the LLC's account. And I wanted them to see, all right, these owners and this entrepreneur.

She'S financially savvy. And the way I could show that I came up with, I brought an Excel again for the net worth of my family as well as my brother's family, because it was the three of us, me, my husband and my brother. And I showed over a period of like three to five years how our net worth had progressed. And yeah, I'm like, I'm pretty proud of that. I heard myself pause a little bit. And the last one, they're going to think about, and these are just examples. I had like 10 of these. They're going to think about the market risk. Okay? So I want them to instead see, hey, this investment is worth taking the risk for us. And the way I did that is like I mentioned, I had the risk mitigation plan and the business plan to kind of all the questions that we'd have asked. I'm like, well, that's page five. And it doesn't really matter what you say there, it's just the fact that you've thought of that, right?

Yeah, that's what I was going to say is at some level now, when that banker or that person or that lender, that private lender, that hard money lender, that partner, whatever, when they see that you've done that level of work, they instantly, whether it's consciously or subconsciously, they instantly think, if that's what they do to prepare to do this, what are they gonna actually do in the actual work? So, like, it's that same thing we say over and over and over. How you do anything is how you do everything. And you've just proven that. Like you said, it doesn't even matter that much what you say. It's more important that you say it in a lot of it and, like, in a way that they understand and respect.

Yep, exactly. All right, moving on. You ready?

So that was number three, right?

That was three. Okay, here comes number four. Find common ground. Right? So choose a banker that is an investor themselves, or choose a banker that understands real estate investing. So I knew that. So I started by asking about his. And we had shared experiences, and we bonded over that. And. And also after that, you can see if you have, like, common goals. Right. We want to grow together. I want to help your bank grow. And then you can get into, like, the qualifications of why you're uniquely qualified to. To do that with them. Last one.

Last one. I thought it was only four steps.

No, it's fine. Well, because this is a bonus. Or maybe I wrote the wrong number when I pitched it.

Or maybe the first one doesn't count.

Maybe the first one. Bonus. All right. Stick out like a dog's balls. So at the agency. Yes. So at the agency that I worked at, we. For every presentation, you should have a star moment.

Okay.

And that stands for. You'll love this. Something they'll always remember.

Oh, Something they'll always remember. Star. I like it. Look at that.

So don't be afraid of being you. Like, bring like you do you. Boo.

I came in, like, as a whirlwind I am. And I was mean. I forgot about the baby. But he saw the passion that I came with. I came in with a point of view, you know, with the vision that I had for the company and the motto. And that was something that he wanted to get behind. So I think that's an important part. You don't have to be also, like, buttoned up. That's not what makes you professional.

Agreed.

Yeah. There is something magical about standing out Mr. Flip Flops. Yeah, exactly. I grew the beard as a way to stand out. I don't mean that in a bad way. Maybe it's a bad way, but like. Like there's so much vanilla in the world, right? Like now. Like, there's something that people need to grab onto. It's why things like house hacking and Burr took off. It's why things like, like the pot, why our podcast took off. It's why people invest with open door capital, like, with my company is like, there's things we do to stand out on individual basis. And on wide. And, like, it's not just me. It's like, all. All the best investors that I know have that. Like, we're not like everyone else. We're not just vanilla. It doesn't mean you're, like, immature. It just means you're. You're showcasing who you really are. Because people can see when you're hiding who you are, and they can't see who you really are. They know they can't see who you really are. They're going to fear who you really are. They're like, oh, they must be a weirdo.

You've taught me a lot about that, about the branding aspect of, like, if you just. You talk about yourself. And now we're kind of getting into social media a little bit as well. But if you talk about yourself just as an investor, well, there's thousands of us out there. But if you talk about yourself. So for me, maybe it's like, all right, I'm an investor, but I'm also, like, a comms experience. Like, maybe you have, like, two things come together and I'm butchering you so much better.

It's the intersection of two interests.

The intersection, exactly.

There you go.

Yes.

If you're. If you're there, then you're people like that. So. Yeah. Yeah, I like it.

Yeah.

Cool.

All right. Was that the last one?

Dogs balls stick out like a dog's ball.

That's going to be your next book. That's going to be your book. It's going to be called the Dog Ball Theory, and it's about how to stand out in a world of vanilla. Yes.

So it's Shoe Dog and me.

Yes, exactly. You'll blow Shoe Dog out of the water.

It'll be great.

All right, we got to start moving towards the end, David. I don't want to rob any more questions you might have lined up. If not, I will ask the broad question of. Is there anything that I didn't ask you today, Maria, that you wish I would have, or anything that you thought I can help people with this thing?

Hmm. Maybe one thing. So everything that you do comes with, I want to say shiz, but I'm going to use poo instead. So everything comes with a poo sandwich. Okay, so you've. You've talked about this. It's like, if you want to be a rock star, the poo sandwiches, you have to play guitar five hours a day.

I don't think I've ever said the word poo sandwich in my life.

But.

And I'm totally. I didn't come up with that. It's. Elizabeth Gilbert wrote that in a book, Big Magic. That is amazing. Anyways, so she's an Eat Pray, Love lady, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She really.

I've not read anything yet, but do.

So if you're nervous, or if you're, like, nervous about going on stage or public speaking, which is very common, or me coming on this pod, right. I haven't been able to eat for a week.

But I'm like, am I willing to eat that poo sandwich? Because I love performing, I love teaching people. I love being on pods and entertaining and making people laugh. So I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna eat that sandwich. Give me yours. I'll eat all of the sandwiches as long as I get to do this. So I think, are you willing to eat the poo sandwich that comes with what you want to do?

That's really good. It reminds me a bit of what I think. Mark, man.

Yeah, right.

In the subtle art of not giving a fudge.

Giving a poo.

Yeah, giving a poo. Yeah. He says, like, rather than setting a goal for, like, what you want, like, ask yourself, what am I willing to, you know, like, work, like, suffer for or die for, whatever.

Like, who you are is defined, but what you're willing to suffer.

Yeah, yeah, that's what that line is. That's so good. Like, and that's what. At BPCON this year, the. The speech I gave was on a lot about alignment. And I talk about passion. The word passion, like the root word of passion, actually means to suffer. That's why we say the passion of the Christ. That's why the movie and the term passion, the Christ is the suffer. So, like, I'm passionate about real estate. Why are you willing to suffer for that? I'm passionate to run a marathon. Well, are you? Or are you infatuated with it, or are you lusting after that thing? Or are you truly passionate? That's the true sign of passion, is suffering. And we have. Yeah.

There's one more awesome resource for that, the Atomic Habits. Yeah, that's one of my. One of my favorite episodes that you did.

When he wrote that book, I was so mad at him because, like, everything in there, I was like, I wanted to write this book. He just did a way better job than I could ever do. So it was amazing.

For you guys who haven't read it, I wanted to. Can I share something? So for all of you who don't even know what that thing for you is, like, if you don't even know what you love or what your passion is. Here are a few questions that he asked in that book that really jived with me. So when are you enjoying yourself when others are complaining?

The work that hurts you less than others is the work that you're meant to do. What makes you lose track of time? Where do you get greater returns than the average person? And what comes naturally to you, really? Like, when have you felt alive, like the real you? Oh, it makes me want to cry.

You're going to, like, tomorrow I'm going to ask a bunch of those questions.

Oh, gosh.

Tomorrow, goal setting day. We're going to. Yeah, we're going to hit those questions and more. You're going to love it.

Okay, perfect.

Be great. Because I love. What's the quote from like Tim Ferriss. He always says, like, the quality of your life is determined by the quality of your questions.

Yeah. Ask better questions.

Better questions get better, better, better answers. And yeah, I really love good questions. I think in the, in like the goal setting, like whenever I do any kind of goal setting, I'm always like, I'll ask myself like a hundred questions first of like, yeah, those type of questions. Because when you start thinking differently, that's when your life starts to change. So, yeah, good stuff, good stuff. Moving on. It's time for the Famous Four. Time to get to the Famous Four.

All right.

Same four questions we ask every guest every, every week. And we're gonna ask you now.

Do you have a current or all time favorite real estate related book besides all of mine, obviously. Obviously, Obviously.

Okay.

Favorite real estate book.

Yeah, One that impacted the move that we did this year of kind of taking a, what do you call it, like a Sabbath year.

Yeah, Sabbatical.

Sabbatical.

Like I'm doing right in a few weeks.

Yeah. Retire early through real estate. Chad Carson. Chad Carson, yeah.

That guy is legit.

Yeah. Chad made a huge impression on me in Nashville as well. So really thankful for in that book he talks about, you know, enjoying the plateaus and it's hard for me to slow down as, you know, high D, high I and high D. Yeah. To slow down and enjoy and not just keep moving.

And so true story. So I'm after bpcon this year. I went to Disney World with Rosie and Wilder and Heather and it was late one night and the kids were cranky. We were at Epcot center and we're just like, we need to go find a place to sit down and relax.

For a little bit.

And so we find this grassy area has a bunch of picnic Tables on it, and there's one picnic table is empty. So I go sit down there, and we're eating some food that we had. And so their family comes up and sits down at the table, too, because it's the only one left. And we're sitting there eating, and I look up, and it's Chad Carson.

No.

Yeah. At the same. And he didn't realize I was sitting there. I didn't realize, like. And we're just both sitting at this table. We look up and just, like, catch eyes at each other of, like. I'm like, chad. And he's like, brandon. So anyway, Chad CARSON, Disney World, 2021. It was great. We ended up talking for, like, an hour and a half, and the kids played together. He is, like, the real deal. Like, his whole book, like, retire early with real estate. Like, he is the guy that's, like, not, like, I'm super ambitious and, like, I want to have billions of dollars, but, like, he's just like, yeah, I just want a good, good life.

Yeah.

That book is all about that.

It was a good reminder. Like, have you guys seen Soul the movie?

Yeah.

Yeah. So I've been the little fish for a long time who's like, hey, you know, I'm looking for the ocean, and the older dude is like, well, you're in it. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. This is just water. I'm looking for the ocean. Right. I'm like, stop looking and see. All right, so he helped me with that. So Coach Carson, right?

CoachCarson. Instagram.com is Chad's website.

Yeah. Cool.

All right, David, next question. What is your favorite business book?

One of my favorites is called Resonate by Nancy Duarte. Have you read it?

Never heard of it.

I love new book.

Renation. Yeah. Yeah. So she's the one who. She's the CEO and the founder of the agency that I worked for in Silicon Valley. And this book just shifted my take on how to talk to people, how to present, and how to. Everything that we've talked today about, really? About how to make that connection with your audience and how to keep it. Yeah. Resonate. It's a really good one. Also. I'm just really thankful for them taking a huge risk with me hiring some rando Finnish girl.

With a physical therapy bachelor degree, like, working at a marketing agency or, like, a comms agency.

That's cool.

Yeah. All right. All right.

Any other books you want to recommend? Is that good?

Oh, dude, I have, like, 50. Yeah.

I know we say favorite book, but.

You could List more just anything about.

Oh, you do have a list.

I do.

I do. I told you I'd come prepared to these things. Every. Everything by Brene Brown. Just about being vulnerable and about daring and how to do things despite it being scary. So, you know, none of this, like, fearless crap. Like, I'm scared all the time. I just do things anyways. Like, that's. That's what I want to teach my kids. Like, that's what being brave is about. Like, you can feel two feelings at the same time.

Yeah. I heard a quote when I was really young that always stuck with me, that you literally cannot have courage without fear.

Yeah.

And then I remember there was a Marcus Aurelius quote. I'm going to butcher it. But it was something along the lines of, the most important virtue to have is courage, because without it, you can't have any of the other virtues. So that always stuck with me, that when you're feeling fear, that is not a sign you're doing something wrong. You're not supposed to wait for fear to go away before you do something. It's like you said, have another feeling. At the same time, have courage spring up and be stronger than the fear and take action in spite of it.

I also love. And we could do a whole nother episode on just fear.

But.

But I love the sense of the idea of, like, taking fear and being like, all right, we're going on a road trip. You can join. Thanks for being here. I know you're trying to hold an eye out for me. You can sit in the back. You can't sit in the front. You can definitely not tell me where we're going. And you cannot touch the music.

So that's what I keep. I try to tell myself. I'm like, all right, hey, buddy, come on, join the ride. Same thing with, like. What's that called? Like, self criticism. I know that it's gonna be there. I always have it. After this, I'm gonna go, like, sit in a corner for five minutes, and I'm gonna let it come. I'm like, hey, great that you're here. Let's bash this out. Do it for five minutes, and then I'm gonna come out of my corner and be like, that's it. I'm not allowed to think about this anymore.

I love it.

Yeah, you gotta have that. Otherwise you can't be friends with Brandon. Cause you never know the next time he's gonna call you fat or criticize your clothes. Fears will always be present.

I just said, don't wear pajamas. Because you asked me something.

Anyway, now there is more. And that's why I didn't get invited to Vegas. Because you're like, david, I would love for you to be here, but these people, they look like me and Maria and don't know that this is what happened.

I think I invited you 400 times. And he's like, I got responsibilities in life. I have to have, like, make money and stuff. Lame. David, you could be sitting here right now in the room with Maria and.

Me in that 7,000 square foot, 75.

Square foot, private penthouse suite.

We could be running around playing Marco Polo right now.

We could totally be playing Marco Polo on here.

What? True story. They didn't even let me in when I rang the doorbell.

Oh, yeah, that's true. We didn't hear the doorbell because it.

Was too far away.

Yeah.

There was a couple others here that we were. I was giving a tour to the 7,500 square foot suite.

It comes with, like, a golf cart that you can use to drive around your entire suite.

Actually, I was giving a tour to Noah and Jeff, who were guests on the podcast back, like a month or two ago. So they're here as well, so. And a bunch of others. There's actually a lot of podcast guests here this week. It's great. All right, well, we got to start moving on. David, next question.

Question. What are some of your hobbies?

Hobbies? I used to do competitive level running, so I run right now. Dude, I'm going to take you down so fast.

Well, it's long enough. 400 meters was. Was my jam. So what I do now is I can't really call that running because it's more like too slow to be called running. But I do love to be out in nature. And.

Forest bathing.

What is that?

So it's when you immerse yourself in stillness in the forest. It's a Japanese thing. And Ryan Holiday talks about that, I think, and stillness is the key. Awesome book. So I started doing that when I was pregnant with Millie, and that was the place where I connected with her the most. So I keep doing that. So nature and then there's something amazing yet.

But getting nature.

Yeah, dude. I mean, they're like literal things that happen to your brain when you're immersed in the forest for five minutes. Yeah, Like, I'm not making this up.

I think when it's, like, bathing in the forest, I'm like, it is too cold to actually bathe in a pool in the forest.

Yeah.

But it is winter right now. So anyway, keep going Yep.

And then I have this passion for thrifting, and I guess it's. I love seeing potential in things. So glamming up old furniture and designing furniture. I love doing that.

I went through a phase in, like, 1817, 1819, where all my clothes came from thrift shops. And it was just like, I would not wear clothes that were not thrift shop clothes. And they were. Some of the best clothes I ever owned, were thrift shop clothes. I had one that said math rules. Numbers all over it. And it was my favorite shirt for a long time. Math rules.

Cool. Yeah.

I had another one called. I said it was the Not AV Club. Some other club I was part of. There were some good. I'll go back into that.

You're such a nerd.

I was such a nerd. President of the AV Club. It was great.

Can I add one thing?

I recently started writing again.

Writing?

Yeah. That I haven't done in a couple years. It's just been too painful, I think. Yeah, we already decided on it, dude. Duh.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, so. But it's been really helpful in, like, finding my focus and, like, healing process and grief. So. Highly recommend it. I highly recommend, like, Hal Elrod. What's his acronym again? Smart Savers. Savers, yeah. Scribing.

Scribing.

That's my choice of poison.

All right, I'm right there with you. I love it. All right, next question is mine, I guess. What separates successful real estate investors from all those who give up, fail, or never get started?

The big one.

The big one.

Have you heard of Finnish? Sisu.

Sisu.

Sisu.

Isn't that the name of the dragon on that one Disney movie?

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't think it's spelled the same way. It's S, I, S, U, and it's this. You can't really translate it to English because it has so much in it.

But it's like fika.

Like fika. Yeah. Yeah.

We talk about that some other time.

Yeah. So sisu is this inner courage and grit, and it's not just like, momentary courage, but sustained courage over time. And Finland was in war against Russia in the Second World War. And, yeah, just a couple of days ago was Finland's Independence Day. And next week, I'm actually. I'm going home to my grandma's funeral. And she was one of the last veterans that were alive from that war. She was just a teenager when she volunteered in that. So to answer your question.

I think it takes different things at different times, so I think you need to be curious. I think you need to be open to letting go of control. I think you need to be creative and. But none of that matters if you don't have sisu or some level of grit sticking with it.

That's so good. So good. So good. I can't say that much longer, David. He always makes fun of me for being so good. All right, before we move on Fika, can you explain that one?

Fika?

Am I saying it right?

Yeah.

We bonded over Fika in Nashville.

Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was awesome. I think I redeemed myself with that.

You may have.

Yeah. Because Brendan's like, have you guys heard of this thing, this thing called Fika? And I'm like, I bought a book.

Called Fika, and it was all about it.

And I'm like, I grew up in Stockholm, Sweden. I know all about Fika. So Fika is this coffee break that you take. But it's so much more than just sitting down and having coffee. It's bonding over the coffee. And it's a cultural thing. Right. So that's the way you meet friends. Hey, let's go have a fika. And all the workplaces do it, like, once or twice a day. So it's just having pause.

Yeah. Pause in your week. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, why don't everybody do that? I don't know.

What if you rebranded your coffee to be Beardy Bonding Brew?

Beardy Bondi Brew. I like this idea. This has been great. Phenomenal. Thank you so much for being here today. And we're gonna go get some food in Vegas, so let's go do that. David, why don't you ask your final question, and then we'll get out of here.

Last question. Where can people find out more about you?

Well, I'm the most active on Instagram. Maria loves real estate.

Maria loves real estate.

Yeah.

I did suggest that she changed her name to. What was it?

It was.

It's the Sound of Music line.

Right.

How do you. How do you solve a problem like Maria? That's what I thought your Instagram should have been, but it doesn't really fit with anything.

But do you remember the one word you told me that when you think about me comes to mind?

No.

Feisty.

Feisty, yeah, feisty. There you go. Maria the feisty. All right, so Instagram, we'll put links to that, of course, in the show. Notes@BiggerPockets.com show, whatever number this is. I don't even know still to this day. But, yeah, that's all we got. Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

Thanks for being vulnerable and for sharing your wisdom and just for being awesome and feisty.

You guys rock.

You rock, David. You rock, too.

Thank you. Appreciate it, man. All right, this is David Green for Abandoned Beardy Brew Coffee Turner signing off.

Thank you all for listening to the Biggerpockets Real Estate Podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian, Copywriting is by Calico, content and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.biggerpockets.com. the content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk, so use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose. And remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. BiggerPockets LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential or other damages arising from a reliance on information presented in this podcast.