551: Brandon’s Final Episode: Life Beyond Real Estate, w/ David Greene and BiggerPockets Founder Joshua Dorkin

This is the Bigger Pockets podcast.

This is the BiggerPockets podcast.

Would you like to do it?

This is the BiggerPockets podcast show 551. Even just sitting here today, listening to the three of us talk, hearing myself, hearing Brandon, hearing you, Dave, it gives me great hope. Hearing you particularly, obviously, because I think you've got it, you know, you are ready, man, and to take lead, to take charge. And I don't know, you know, I get emotional. Like, it makes me feel really, really good because, like, I have a thousand percent confidence that, you know, it's going to do great.

What's going on, everyone? It's Brandon Turner, host of the BiggerPockets podcast, here with my co host, Mr. David Green, and for the first time in a long time, Mr. Josh Dworkin.

What is going on, everybody?

What's up, man? How you been? Hi. How are you, man? I'm good. I'm good. I'm honored to be.

I don't think.

Have we ever actually recorded a show in the seashed together?

We have not. And you have lovely blue eyes.

Thank you. I know. We're really awkwardly close to each other right now.

This is weird. I don't think I've ever looked at you like this.

Yeah, I know. This is very strange. Usually we're on pores. Yeah.

Pimples all over.

Yeah.

This is getting weird, David.

I've been in Josh's seat before, though, and it is exactly what he's describing.

Big eyes, gigantic beard.

He'll do this thing, Josh, when he's talking, he will look directly at your eyes and not let go. And it will. It will feel like very awkward and almost violated. Like Brandon stare. Is that. Yeah, he does it on purpose. Yeah. Don't show weakness.

What you do is you cross one eye and then you leave the other one straight forward so you can't quite tell what I'm looking at.

Oh.

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All right, well, today's show is a different type of show because this is for those people who have known we've been talking about the last few months, that this is the last official episode where I am the host of the bigger Pockets podcast.

You serious?

You know about this, man?

Wait, this is why you guys brought me here?

Why you write? Yeah. Josh is taking over. No, that's not true. But I wish. David's taking over. David's taking over Dave.

Yeah.

Mazel. Tough, man.

It's gonna be a good time. So here's the deal, everyone. So over the past nine years in a row. Full nine. Full years. We're going into year 10 here starting next week. So for the last nine years, the first, what, six? Five. Josh and I did it together for the first. What was your first episode, David? Do you remember?

It's like, 260, 270 maybe.

Yeah, something like that.

So mid.

Like, mid. Like, pretty much almost exactly halfway. Josh was on the first half. Then Josh, you left to take care of family, and that put David in charge. We brought in David, and David's been amazing to work with over the last few years, and now it's time for me to do the same. Go take care of family. And not quite to the same extreme measure that you had to go through with your family, but maybe give a quick update. Josh, what have you been doing the last few years? How's the family?

Family's good. Thank you for asking. I'm actually here a week out of my own surgery, ironically.

Yeah, you hobbled in here.

I definitely hobble in. I've got a couple.

Yeah, the nose job was. It looks good, man.

Yes. I'm a holy man.

Yeah. You didn't get some, what, stomach issues, like, surgery?

I had a hernia surgery, so somewhat unpleasant.

Not the same as nose surgery.

No, no, no, no. How am I doing? I'm. I'm good, man. I'm good. It's been. What is it? It's three years. Yeah. Since stepping back, and I miss all you guys. I miss all the listeners. I miss you and your frightening blue eyes. I missed.

I mean, they are.

God, what is going on there?

It is crazy.

Beautiful.

I miss Dave. Yeah, I've been doing really well. Family's good. Obviously. We are. Well, we're here on Maui, so we're. We're loving life here in Maui.

We actually, Josh and I are neighbors now.

We are fairly close.

Awesome.

We're fairly close. I. You know, we did not suffer the. The same damage that you guys had. I. I don't know if you guys talked about it.

I don't know if we ever did talk about it. My backyard is completely destroyed. If you guys ever seen pictures on my Instagram, like, my cool backyard with, like, a bunch of gardens. I Got a play area. And, like, it was beautiful. And it's gone. I mean, wiped off the planet. It's now a pickleball court again.

Yeah. Brandon was like, I don't know where he was. Gallivanting around.

Gallivanting. My wife's at home.

Wife was home. It was. It was scary. It was scary. But, yeah.

Yeah, that was a crazy night. I'm like, yeah. Hanging out in Nashville, like a Bigger Pockets meetup.

And she called me.

She's like, I think the house is gonna get swept away. Like, she was legitimately concerned. So then Ryan called me, like, I think my house gonna get swept away. And then Josh calls me, and he's like, I'm just fine sitting here up in my nice house on the hill.

I did offer housing for both Ryan.

And your wife, but they couldn't even get out. The house was an island.

That was crazy.

Yeah.

So the lesson learned, even if you live on the side of a hill in the desert, flood insurance may have been a good idea in this case.

Yeah, I'm gonna be out quite a bit of money. I'll fix up my yard because I don't have flood insurance, so. Yeah, but who would expect a flood in a desert side of a hill? Like, it's not. I don't even live in the bottom.

Of a hill anyway.

It was bonkers.

It was bonkers.

So. Yeah, man.

All right.

So family's been all good. I love seeing your family. Yeah, we've had a good couple years here. Hanging out a lot more often. Surfing a little.

Little.

Little beach surfing. Well, see, that's the thing. It doesn't happen that often, which. Which is, I think, partially why you're stepping back. Yeah.

I mean, I. I say it's because of family, really, it's because of Josh. I just want to surf more with you, man. We're gonna have a good.

Well, Josh is.

Over there. Yes, we are ohana. That is true. We are ohana. And we hang out and we surf, and we're going to do more of that this year.

That's exciting. It's exciting. But I'm good, You know, I've been really spending the bulk of my time. What have I been doing so hard?

You built a pool.

I've been doing a lot of construction, and I've been doing a lot of investing. Investing in a bunch of real estate deals, startup deals. I've been advising small companies, startup companies. So that's been a lot of fun. I've actually really, really enjoyed that. Helping folks on the marketing side and Community side and other areas of expertise where I can provide some help and. Oh, man, what else? You know, spending a lot of time with the fam. A lot of time just focused on just myself, taking care of myself. Burnout is real, as I'm sure most people listening understand.

What have you learned? You've been working a lot hours for a lot of years. What have you learned that could help listeners about avoiding burnout or dealing with burnout?

It's not worth it. I mean, straight up, it's not worth it. So, you know, it's interesting because in the midst of it, I was probably one of the biggest proponents and advocates of hustle culture, right? Work your butt off. Grind, grind, grind. Ironically, I am now not so much of a proponent of that. But really, I think it comes down to mental health and physical health. I think when you're doing that, you don't have the chance to take care of yourself. And if you can't take care of yourself, things will suffer. Your work is going to suffer, your family life's going to suffer. Your other areas of who you are, of your being will suffer. So I'm definitely more of a proponent of balance today than I was. Now, that's not to say that you shouldn't work hard, you shouldn't hustle, you know, if you're trying to start something up, working 60 hour weeks or 80 hour weeks, honestly, I mean, like, it's necessary sometimes, you know, I took it to an even greater extreme than that. But I think just being focused and if you can eliminate a lot of the junk time things like social media, I mean, we all just jump to our phones instantly and, you know, flick away on things. It's ridiculous. And you'll look and you'll see you've spent three hours on your phone and what did you do? You did nothing, right? So if you eliminate that, you know, it's not necessarily about being as productive as you can be for every second, but that is very. It's a draining activity. And we all kind of say, hey, I'm working, I'm working. But you're kind of flicking around, right? Are you working? Maybe a little bit, Maybe somewhat. What do you guys think about that?

I'm curious, man, I'm so terrible with my phone. Like, I go in like spurts, you know, where I shut off everything and uninstall everything, but I intend to come back on again. And they look at my hours. It's like you spent four hours and 55 minutes a day on your phone. I'm like, how is that my life? Like. Like, I'm contemplating. I said this on a recent show. I'm contemplating spending the entire year of 2022 with my phone plugged in my office and never taking it out. The downside is you lose. I lose my camera, and I love my camera, but there's ways around that, I'm sure.

And you lose connection with people.

Yeah, but if it's my office, at least, like, I can, you know, when I'm in my office working on something, I can come in here. It's just like, I won't sit in my office and scroll tick tock for three hours, because that would be weird.

Yeah.

I don't know. Maybe if I'm out of podcasting, maybe I will sit in my office.

Maybe another way is to have two phones. I mean, and not everybody can do this, obviously, but you have, like, just a cheapo flip phone that you take around with you to communicate with friends, family, things like that.

And then have I showed you my light phone?

I have not seen it.

So I have a phone called the Light Phone. I think it's L, I, T, E, but it might be L, I, G, H, D. Light phone is like this phone that's like. You know the Kindle readers that are like the kind of like the black and white Kindle? Yeah, it's that same thing on a phone. So there's no color. It's just like that. Whatever. I don't know.

They have a name for it, but.

And you can text, but it's like awkwardly texting.

Right.

You can call. You can even do GPS now. And I think they have Uber, and that's about it. Then maybe you can put songs on there.

That's it.

And so, like, I got this phone. It's like 20 bucks a month. It cost me a few hundred bucks.

To buy it, and then I haven't used it at all. But I had it.

I've had it now for, like, nine months in my possession. And I thought about that. It's just. It's lacking the camera. That's the only thing I worry about.

Yeah. What do you think about Burnout, Dave? I mean, you've. You're burning it at all ends.

I think I'd love to do a whole show with Josh just on this topic, because my personal opinion is that as human beings, we have an incredible ability to lie to ourselves. And this shows up a lot of the time when we say, I'm working my butt off. I just never like when someone says it or I'm doing The best I can, because that's rarely ever true. I think a lot of the time you see this with realtors, they show up at the office, they are in a chair looking at a computer, Googling things and answering emails. But that's not work. They're not actually doing the activities that will get them to where they want to go, which is okay. It's not okay when you trick yourself into thinking that you are doing that. So there's people that are like, I'm working every day to get to financial freedom. But you're really not. You're looking at stuff on Zillow and you're half heartedly sending emails to realtors and you're waiting for other people to try to basically intervene and get you to success. So I love what Josh said when you said, like sometimes we're just scrolling through our phone and we're calling at work and you go home at the end of the day and you tell yourself, I put in a day's work, but you didn't do any of the things that mattered. And then you feel like, I'm robbing my family of time. And that's something. Brandon's been really talked about it a lot that his phone sort of takes away from family time. And I just love that he's not lying to himself. We see this with the, the Fitbit thing. When I was a cop, this was very popular. Cops would wear a Fitbit and say, I got my 10, 000 steps and I did exercise. And I just remember, like, your heart never goes up when you're walking. It is very easy to walk that that is an exercise. Just say, I didn't exercise. It was tricky because you lie to yourself and you tell yourself, right? Like at one point in my life I did that where I'm eating healthy. I got a Subway sandwich instead of a hamburger. Right. Like, that was a lie that I told myself so I could feel better. And that's just. I like to try to eliminate those things that aren't true because then you're left with the reality maybe you aren't working towards your goal and you're still taking time away from your family.

Right? Exactly. I'm happy to do that, by the way, Dave, if you want to have me in and. And we can talk about it, but it'd be great. So burnout. I mean, I think that's a big thing. I think some of the other stuff is really just making sure to eat well. It's something I've really started to focus on a lot is just eating way more healthfully to actually exercise. Thus the hernia. Maybe, maybe not. Not sure where that came from, actually.

Well, I gotta imagine, Josh, you got this amazing six pack now from all this exercise that puts a lot of torque on your right? You, like, threw a supercharged engine into the car that you'd been driving this whole time. Of course you got a hernia. You gotta take it easy there.

Who knows?

Josh is in the best shape of his life.

Thank you. I am. I'm definitely in the best shape of my life at 45, which is crazy. And that's the point, right? You don't have to wait until you retire to take care of yourself. You don't have to wait until, you know. And you don't have to go on through your life and say, hey, my peak was 20. Right? You can continue to focus and work on these things. And I think everybody should. And really, I think the last and probably most important thing is the mindful part. Definitely spent a lot of time, which I think is one of the biggest aids in dealing with the burnout, is that mindfulness, right? Today, everyone talks about meditation and things like that, but it's not necessarily like, meditation is hard. I don't know if you guys have tried it.

It's tough.

It's really hard. And I've spent a lot of time trying, and I'm not really very good at it. What I find, like, I find I'm most meditative if I'm sitting on a surfboard or if I'm skiing some really, really difficult hill, or I'm just walking through the woods. To me, that's my mindful.

Jogging, for me is like that.

Definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, like, what I would say to everyone listening is, what is it that you love? Because I found that in my peak grind, I forgot what I loved. I forgot everything that made me who I am. I forgot everything that actually made me happy outside of my family. And when I rediscovered that post, you know, stepping back from bigger pockets, I started to find the joy again. I really started to find a glimmer in my eye. The life came back. And so what is it that drives you? Is it jogging around the neighborhood, like Brandon says, getting on a bike? Is it going to your local river and rowing? Is it going in the woods, hiking, you know, whatever it is, find that thing. But don't let your hustle, don't let your grind, don't let your thriving for success get in the way of that, because you'll lose a part of you. And you'll look back and you'll certainly regret it.

Well, let me ask you a question related to that, then. This applies now to me going forward in a large way. It did to you and to a lot of people listening to the show. Maybe they're thinking about quitting their job at some point or leaving a thing that has been such an integral part of their life for a long time. So I'm wondering about, like, that connection with identity. Like, you were a long time, like. Right. Like you are Biggerpockets. Like, Josh started. Biggerpockets built it for a decade, I think, before I even came into the picture. And then we built it together. And, like, you led that charge for so many years, and then it was over. Like, you left it. How did you get through that shift and to find yourself on the other side?

That was hard. That was really, really hard. Interestingly, you know, I'll. I'll walk around now, and people won't know who I am, which is really nice, I think. I think stepping back from the limelight a little bit is kind of nice. It's something you and I talk about quite a bit. Yeah, I think it's hard, but for me, it was. You know, BiggerPockets was always part of who I was from the very beginning, but I always was meticulous once I started to bring other people on that I didn't want the company to be Josh. Yeah. Josh is not the company. The company is not Josh. Brandon is not biggerpockets. Biggerpockets is not Brandon. Dave is not Dave's company, and the company is not Dave. Right. And so, you know, from an outward perspective, that's super important for anybody who's building a business, particularly if you want to have the opportunity to step away and let the company go on and exist without you. Yeah, right. But in terms of just dealing with the mental component of it, that definitively took me. It took me at least a year to start to feel kind of chill about that. Like, the first year, I was super uptight, super tense about it, always worrying about every little decision that was being made, and that was super challenging until realizing, like, it's almost like raising a child. Right. You raise your kid, they get to a point where you've given them all the tools that they need, hopefully to go on and live their life. Right. So I'd say the same was true with the company. I realized that my child had just graduated from high school, was off to college, and it had all the tools it needed to continue to grow and thrive. And you and Scott and Dave and the rest of the team have helped to bring it forth. And so I think knowing that and just trusting that it'll be okay regardless. And if it's not okay, look, you did your part, right? You did what you could and now you have to figure out who you are and what's next. And I will tell you, I mean, I am now 3 plus years post BP. I'm not necessarily struggling with stepping away from. I'm Josh from bp. I am struggling, however, with what is the next thing for me. And I've occupied my time, I've made myself busy and I'm doing things, but I haven't found that next kind of passion play. We're helping save the earth and giving to great causes and doing cool things, but I'm still not at a place where I'm like, oh, if I wanted to, I would love to put 80 hours, 100 hours a week into this. Nothing yet has jumped out to me. So I think if you have something for those people who are thinking about quitting a job, right? If you've got something that you're passionate about, you know, if you're thinking about quitting your job to go full time into real estate or whatever it is, I would say that will help you in dealing with that sense of loss, because I think it's a real sense of loss.

It is, yeah. Yeah. Very much so. Dave, what do you think about that? I mean, you left being a cop, right? Your identity was like you were a police officer for so long. Did that mess you up in any way? Or do you feel like because you immediately latched on to real estate investing, that it kind of lessened that he's still a cop?

Look at him.

I am so scared he's going to reach through the screen.

Speaking of that, I remember back. I'll let you answer your question, David, but I remember back just to pull back episode, what was it, 169 is that you were on the first time, David?

Yep, 169.

And so we started that conversation with David was the cop who bought a bunch of rentals. That's how this whole thing started with the three of us.

That was great.

But anyways, yeah, David, how did you feel you navigated that?

I think if I'm being completely honest and transparent, I would not have been able to leave being a cop if I wouldn't have been forming a new identity as I was already a real estate investor. But now I'm someone who talks about it on other podcasts writes books about it, teaches people. Then I got my real estate license and I was sort of develop a new identity as an agent. And right around the time I was able to leave being a cop is the same time that my sales were taken off and I was the top agent in my office and I had a new identity. So I am very aware that many of our decisions are influenced at a subconscious level by where we find our identity. And it is. I wouldn't have just left cold turkey. I wouldn't have been able to do that. I needed a new thing to sort of transfer over. And I think this is just a wise thing to bring up because many people are stuck in a life they don't like, but they can't jump off the lily pad they're on until they have like, well, what's my next lily pad? And their identity is such a piece of why they are on the one that they're on now.

Yeah. I think what was interesting about your story, Josh, is like you had to leave in such a. In a quick thing, right? Like you didn't have the next thing to jump to because your daughter, you know, went through that horrible experience which we talked about that on an episode a long time ago. So we don't need to necessarily rehash the whole thing. But like you didn't have anything to jump to at the time.

Right.

And so that would be like, I mean, that would be a lot warp, I think. I think like in my case, like obviously Opendoor Capital, which by the way, you heard it here first, we're changing the name to odc, just playing because that big company, Open Door, eventually they're gonna yell at me to change my name. So even though I was first, doesn't matter, I'm gonna just change the name. Right now we're changing to odc, Just simple three letters. But I had, I've been building that for the last couple years. And so again, it should help to jump to that. But again, if you're, if you're listening to the show right now and you're like, I want to quit my job eventually, get into real estate full time. Like, plant those seeds now, get that new identity forming. So when that job does end, whether by your choice or by the universe's choice, like you've got a place to jump to.

I think one of the things I would not recommend to people is just bouncing right, have a plan. Particularly if you know you're paycheck to paycheck or you don't have a large savings, right you want to think about, hey, listen, I may be miserable in my job, or it may not be who I am, but before you go, like, figure out who you are. Figure out what it is that you really love, what drives you, what is. What is it that you're passionate about? Because that hole that will exist, like, you don't want to start looking for that next sense of identity while you're also struggling to pay the bills, right? So as hard as it may be, you know, you definitely want to stay where you are, continue the cash coming into your pocket, but at least take your nights, take your weekends, take your lunch breaks and think about it. And it's interesting because I have a lot of conversations with friends who are like, Josh, you know, I kind of hate my job. You know, I'm over it, I'm done. And I'm like, okay, look, you're successful, you're making a lot of money. At least you recognize it. So what are you going to do about it? And most of them are too afraid to step down. You know, most of them are too worried about the outside impression, what other people think of them. Oh, well, I was a doctor my whole life. I can't step down from being a doctor to be something else. What would my mom think? And we're so trained through decades and decades of society telling us, like, we are the person that we said we would be in high school, going into college, post college, right? And I think what's helpful for folks is to think of life in phases, right? You're allowed to have career changes. You're allowed to have studied to become a doctor, be a doctor for 10, 15, 20 years, and then go change and become, you know, a lawn guy. It doesn't matter, like, find what it is that you love and don't let outside constraints outside society or your perception of what your friends, your family, your community thinks. Do what it is that matters to you. And, you know, of course, just do it when the timing is right.

I remember Derek Sivers. You know Derek Sivers, he's like the say, say no unless it's a hell yes guy. So Derek Sivers once said something about, like, we oftentimes as entrepreneurs, we have so many ideas of things we want to be or things we want to build, right? And he said, look, if you're younger today, you're probably living to 100, right? If not significantly more because of all technology, which means if you're 30 right now, you could have an entire life, like business career in your 30s and then in your 40s have a completely different one, and then your 50s have a completely different one. It's like you could have, like, six, seven, eight, nine full lives that we can. That 50 years ago, that was not a thing. Like, you just have one career. But because, like, living longer, we're healthier. Like, even if we don't live to 150, we'll probably live to 100 and be healthier up till 95 versus living till 50, and you're already, like, you know, in a. In a home. Yeah. So it just. It was interesting whenever I think that it relieves a lot of the pressure to, like, I got to figure out my life right now. I got to stick with, you know, like, it's. Yeah, you could do a whole decade of something. Like, I did a whole decade of the Bigger Pockets podcast, and now it's like, all right, onto the new thing.

Did you guys have this thing? Because, you know, for me, when I turned 29, 29 was probably the worst year of my life, barring all the drama and stuff that happened to my family, you know, like, introspectively. Because at 29, I was pretty broke. I had this new company that, you know, was not making really any money at all. My friends didn't believe in my business. My family didn't necessarily, like, super support it because I was struggling so much. And I looked at all my friends, and they were all making a lot of money. They all had a family and kids and things like that. Now, you know, I had a lovely wife at the point and things like that, but still a lovely wife. Julie. She's amazing.

We love you, Julie.

But that year was really, really hard because I was comparing myself to everybody else. And so I know most of you guys listening have done that. I'm curious for you, Brandon, and you, Dave, what do you think? Did you guys go through that and what was it that if you struggled with what I struggled with, helped you get through it?

Yeah, I remember this. He brings up another point I wanted to bring up on this episode. But I remember when I was 29, I was still crawling under houses, putting up insulation. I was still.

Were you on a roof?

I was on a rough. Why do you guys make fun of.

Me when I say rough?

In a rural area?

In a rural.

So I was still doing a lot of my own work, a lot of my own labor. I mean, we had started the podcast. Podcast at that point, because when I'm 36 now, so we've been doing the podcast a couple years, but I was still doing a lot of the crappy work, living in an area I didn't like, where it rained all the time with, like. And I remember thinking, like, the books promise a different life than what I felt I was living. Right. Like, the idea of real estate and financial freedom and wealth, because it came so quickly. Right around I turned 30, 31, 32, and then the last three, four years, it's just been crazy. But, yeah, I just remember thinking, like, this is not necessarily what, like, I thought financial freedom would be, because, like, it was still a grind, you know? And I don't know, I think I just didn't have the lessons learned on how to be a leader yet. And so I was still grinding away at stuff I didn't like and thought I had to do in order to survive. I mean, I was still editing the podcast, I think, back then, maybe even, like. I mean, I did that for the first time.

That's why it's so much better now.

I know.

Great job, Dave. David.

He's much better. We've had the same editor then for, like, seven.

Yeah.

Crazy. I don't know. How about you, Dave?

Where you at?

At 29, how did I deal with measuring myself to other people?

Sure, sure.

Or did you go through that phase?

Oh, I still am going through that, to be honest. I just was with Brandon the other day in Dallas, and he was talking with Brian Murray about the fund that they're running and the way that they're buying real estate. And I was telling him, I feel about this big right now because that's where I want to be. And I'm not doing what you guys are doing. I'm doing other things. And so the emotions are like, I didn't feel successful at all. I felt like I was underperforming. Like, I had let fear dictate too many decisions to get to this point. And in that moment, it was like, what's the point of any I'm doing now? That's also just an emotional state that I was in. In that moment, you get out of that moment, that goes away, you can feel good again. But I think for the people that are listening, that are going through that, don't ever, like, deny that's happening or get in this point of pride where you don't want to admit that's the case. That is part of being a human being. When you see other people that aren't doing as well, your pride starts to feel good, and you're like, yes, that's right. I'm doing better than them. And then you come across Somebody else who's doing better than you and you feel really small. It's a practice very probably similar to, like, meditation, like what you're trying to do, Josh, where you have to divorce yourself away from looking at someone else and saying, am I doing good or not? When you need to be looking at your own self and the vision you have for your own life and asking yourself if you're living the life that you want to be living.

Yeah, agreed. Have I ever talked about, you know, the idea that a friend of mine back in high school told me about looking back at your life from the perspective of on your own deathbed? Have we ever talked about that? So if we have, I'm sorry, somewhere in the 260 shows that I did. 283, whatever it was. But this was, I think, the best wisdom I've ever had. Well, some of the best wisdom I've ever had. And it was imagine yourself on your own deathbed, right? You're looking back at the life that you've lived and who's going to be with you, your immediate family, your closest of friends, and that's it, right? Now, obviously, those are not the only people in your life that are important, but you want to have lived a life that was good for yourself. But, you know, being good to those people and taking care of those people as. As well. And outside of that bubble of those people, you know, look, everyone else matters, right? We have to be good to other people. We can't just be jerks to other people. But at the end of the day, all the other chatter, all the other feedback, all the other opinions about who we are and what we are doesn't matter. Yeah. And so, like, whether it's envy and seeing, you know, somebody being successful that you look at and you're like, oh, man, I wish I could be there, too. Like, it's not a race, right? That goes back to that 29 thing. For me, what I was doing was I was comparing myself to everyone else. And back then I felt really crappy, and I felt like everyone was doing better than me. And then I have friends now who are looking at me, and they're like, well, how'd you do it? I was like, well, you know, I quit my job. I took tons of risks, did a lot of really scary things, and that's how I got to where I am today. And they're like, well, I don't have the constitution to do that. I was like, well, what do you have the constitution to do? Right? Because we all have our own fears and strengths and things like that. So I think it's stop comparing yourself. Stop looking at Brandon and saying how he's doing and saying, I want to be like Brandon. Stop looking at Dave and saying, he's this amazing agent who's crushing it. I got to be like Dave. You don't have to be like Dave. You don't want to be like Dave. Like, Dave doesn't want to be like Dave. Brandon doesn't want to be like Brandon. Josh doesn't want to be like Josh.

Right.

Like, we got to find kind of that happiness. We've got to find back to my happiness thing.

Right?

We've got to figure out, like, what is that sense of contentment, I think, with who we are, and find a path that will get us to that deathbed where we can sit and look back and say, you know, I did all right. Because in. In a hundred years and two hundred years, your great grandkids, your great, great, great grandkids won't know who the hell you are. You won't matter. None of us really will.

Well, there's two points that I want to highlight from what you're saying there, Josh. The first is it is very easy to look at what someone else has and say, I want that. It just isn't wise. Like, what I hear all the time is, if I said, hey, do you guys want to look like the Rock? Both of you would probably say, yes. I would not be mad if I look like the Rock.

Okay? I know what the Rock is cooking.

That is right. That's about as far as we're getting into his world. Because if you wanted the Rock's life, that means Getting up at 4, 4.35am, working out harder than you've ever worked in your life, every single day, regardless of how sore you are, what injuries you have, having to fly your weight sets with you when you go. He looks like he has freedom. In a sense, he does. In another sense, he's a slave. He's a slave to the recording schedules and the scripts that he has to practice and the businesses he's running. He's a slave to the shareholders and the clients that he is making things for. I'm obviously not putting the rock down. The man's incredibly successful, but he has traded some of the freedom that Josh is talking about for that. So a wiser perception is, I don't want the Rock's body. I don't want to pay the price I would have to pay to have his body. And the same could go for A lot of other things. The second point I want to make is I think bigger pockets is the only platform, at least that I've ever seen, that teaches. We want you to invest in real estate so that you can live life on your own terms. Not, we want you to invest in real estate so you can have a Ferrari and a yacht and a bunch of women in bikinis and this, this private jet. All of these shallow type goals are what most gurus are projecting and waving in front of your face, saying, yes, come pay for my program. This frequently. If you attend our webinars, if you listen to Josh's story or Brandon's story or my story, it's so that you can do life how you want to do it. Real estate is a tool to get you to that point, not a tool to build wealth that you may not even want once you get it, live.

Life on your terms. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's even what I told you, Dave, when we were talking in Dallas. I just said, like, we just have to remember that we have to run our own race. Easier said than done. But two quick stories. First one.

They're never quick.

No, they're quick. All right, first one, there's a guy back in, like, I don't know, 17, 1800s, think 1800s, who was like a munitions guy, like, did, like, bombs and invented some really cool stuff for blowing a lot of people up and stuff, right? And so this guy goes through his whole life, like, that way. Well, then his brother dies, but the newspaper gets it wrong. Newspaper gets it wrong, and they think that this celebrity is the one who died. And so the article in the newspaper, like, you know, whatever full page newspaper says the Merchant of Death is dead, or something like that, right? He reads his own obituary. This guy does, and at that moment, he decides to change his entire life. And so this guy, Alfred Nobel, turns his whole life around and creates a Nobel Prize, right? So it was looking at your life from, like what you said, the obituary standpoint, which is a good practice to do, is to write your obituary.

Have you done that?

I have. And I had a bunch of friends out here in Maui. One of the classes we did a long time ago, and we made everybody write their own obituaries, and it was fascinating. Anyway, second thing I'll say is this. There's a book called the Gap and the Gain. Have you read that one yet?

I have not.

I need to get you that book. It's probably the best book I read in 2021. The gap in the Gain by Ben Hardy and Dan Sullivan. And they do this great practice in there. Here's the gap in the gain in a nutshell. You don't have to read it. Then our life. Our life is made up of. There's the place we want to get to. Like the ideal version of anything. Your body, your relationships, your wealth, whatever. And then there are where you started. So zero. And then you are in the middle somewhere. And if all you focus on is what you lack between where you are and where you want to get to, that's called the gap. And the thing is, the gap always moves, right? Oh, yeah, I remember. Remember when you were thinking when you were younger moving targets. Yeah, when we were younger, how amazing with three grand a month in cash flow been like, we've been like, oh, my gosh, that's all I need. And it was like five. Then it was like that target always moves.

And since lifestyle bloat, right?

Yep. Income create up and it's in every area of her life. There's always like, the rock is unhappy with how he looks. I'm sure in a lot of times, like, oh, look at that muscle twitch right there. I don't like that thing. Right. So if you're always making your happiness based on the gap, you're always going to be unhappy. So the book makes the point of making on the gain. Like, where have you come from? So in that they make you do a practice. And I made a bunch of my friends last week when I was hanging out with them, actually, we all sat down and did this. I said, where were you 10 years ago? Like, define your 10 years ago. And then you go, define your three years ago and define your one year ago. Like, where were you? And when I went 10 years ago, it's kind of the question you asked about 29. But 10 years ago, I was. I had not met you yet. I think I just talked on the phone the first time to Josh, and I remember being freaked out. Like, the Josh Dworkin wants to talk to me about writing on the website. Like. Cause I was gonna guess writing.

It was very intimidating.

You were very intimidating. That was even before the podcast. I never even heard you talk as you were like the godfather of real estate. And like, I was doing all my own work in my properties. Like, I was crawling under those houses. Like. Like 10 years ago I didn't have any kids. Like, my net worth was probably negative. It was like, crazy what happened. So 10 years, when you look back on that and you stop comparing to other people and stop comparing to the gap and you start comparing to where you've been. It's such a great. Like, I would encourage everyone listening to this, go take some time in nature, sit down and take a piece of paper and just write down everything you've accomplished in the last 10 years. And you will walk away from that, just fired up and realizing, like, dang, I've run a long way in my race.

Can I add to that? I would say that's amazing. But what I'll add to it is I know for a fact that you, Brandon, are still looking at the gap.

No, I'm always looking.

And what I would say is, you know, you are in a position and you are at a place where that gap doesn't matter. You know, the gain is so far that, like, that ambition to close the gap with whatever is that number or whatever it is is irrelevant. And in fact, I know there's a lot of people listening to the show who are uber, uber successful.

Yeah.

Friends with a lot of these people. Right. And what's fascinating to me, and, you know, we're all still trying to understand humanity. I think that's who we are.

Right.

That's what humans do, is ponder this stuff. I mean, I know guys who are worth. How many figures is that? $100 million? Nine figures. You know, eight, nine figures. Who still have to have more. Yep. Have to have more. I gotta get more because I gotta get more. And I can't judge them. And I'm not sure what it is that drives that. But I also know some of those folks who have massive holes in other parts of their lives that they're aware of, and they'll continue to leave those holes in lieu of going for the money or the power or the fame or whatever it is. And what I would say is, you know, you get to this point, you're like, why are you doing that? Like, slow your roll, man. You don't need to do that. Right.

Well, now we're getting into the deep stuff. And I think the simplest analogy to explain why.

Here we go.

Why we as the analogy, I think specifically men, but women may do this too. I've just never been a woman, so I don't know what it's like to be in their head. The reason guys skip leg day is because it's harder. And we all prefer to work out the thing that we're already good at. Right. So if you have a body meant for running, you're always going to want to be like, yeah, let's go running. If I say, hey, do you want to Go lift weights, right? If Brandon says, hey, David, do you want to go surfing? I'm like, oh, that sounds exhausting, right? I don't swim very much. I don't want to go do that. So I think the reason you can get to 100 billion in net worth and your marriage sucks, but you still want to go to work every day is because marriage is leg day and it is so much easier to avoid the parts we don't like. But like you're saying, Josh, like, it doesn't make sense to continue working out your biceps when they're freakishly big and all the rest of you is in terrible shape and you can't climb the stairs, right? Unless you do it on your hands like a monkey or something. Because all you have are these big biceps because you want everyone to see, yeah, like, look at my muscle. But it's not, it's not giving you a good life. Just like a well developed body is what's going to give you, you know, a better experience in life. And it's hard to have to face those things.

So there's a really good practice for doing this. It's maybe a little cliche if people have you've ever hired a performance coach before, but I still really like doing. In fact, I did it last week. It's called the Wheel of Life, right? So the idea being, imagine like a pie, we have all these slices and then you, each slice is an area of your life. So there's your fitness, your significant other, your family or your friends. There's your, you know, mental health, your growth. So there's like nine areas of your life and there's different wheels of life to have. Nine, eight, seven, whatever. And then what you do is you start in the center of the pie and you shade outward on each piece as to where you feel your strength is that, like 1 out of 10, right? So if you feel like your fitness is at a 3 out of 10, you'd shave it a third of the way out on the pie. So at the time, when you, by the time you're done with this whole wheel, you can see your entire life on like the perfect life. I mean, that would know what it can achieve would be a perfect circle, right? So you can see where the ebbs and flows. And so you can look at that and be like, wow, I feel really good on this area, but dang, I suck at this area. And it just is a really good awareness exercise. So I'll actually put my Wheel of life that not the, my fill, that one But a blank one. I'll just throw up on the bigger pockets. Biggerpockets.com WheelOfLife W H E E L of Life and I'll just throw it there. If you guys want to just print it off, download it, you know, whatever, and do it on your own. It's a really good practice for knowing, you know, sometimes. Like, when I did it last week, I went there thinking I was gonna set some goals for business. I was gonna set some goals for my finances, and I did this Wheel of Life. I did, like, a whole day, like, goal setting for myself and some friends. And, like, we looked at it and I was like. And I showed my buddies that were there. I'm like, I can't work on my business and my financial right now when my wheel looks like this. And so anyway, that's just what I would encourage people to do. Download biggerpockets.com Wheel of Life there's no opt in or anything. Just go get it and I think it'll help you.

That's great. I mean, I do something similar. It's not with a wheel, but I do like it because it's. It's a great visual representation of it.

Yeah.

But I've got a book that I go through, and it's got each of those sections. You know, I wrote this book, and it's a journal, and literally, it's like, this is health. This is wealth. This is relationships with spouse. This is relationships with kids. This is relationships with friends. This is fitness, adventure, so on and so forth. And then, you know, I rate each one and where am I at a certain point? What do I need to do? And I would encourage people to do that. You know, I think we heard it on here, or maybe it was somewhere else from somebody. But if you evaluate your life and let's say it's your relationship with your kids or your relationship with your spouse or your relationship with your friends or your hobbies. Right. I mean, I'd say five years ago, my hobby was a zero. Six years ago, it was a zero.

Yeah.

Four years ago it was a zero.

Right.

I mean, a zero. I was a complete and utter failure in that. I'd say most of you probably aren't a zero, but is it a five? Is it a six? Is it a seven? If it's a seven, you know, if it's a six, you're failing, right?

Yeah.

Think about it. A six out of 10 is.

Yeah, it's a deep failing.

Yeah, that's a D. No, it's an.

F. Yeah, I Guess. Yeah.

Yeah.

Crazy.

So how do you break down your own life into different parts? Everyone's going to do it their own way. Wealth, health, you name it. Fitness, love, whatever it is. Happiness.

Right?

And be honest with yourself. If you're getting sixes or below in anything, that's probably the thing you should be focused on now.

Yeah, that's really good, man.

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Here's a question for both of you. This is a question I posed to myself last week and talked about it with some of the same buddies that we're. We just kind of did like a goal setting day. And the question is, do you want to in 2022? So answer this question in 2022. I want to be a better blank. So I want to be a better blank. So I kind of started my like goal thinking with that question. So I'll let you think on that for a second so I won't spring you at it live. But David, do too. In 2022, I want to be a better blank. Then the second question was why? And the third question is, at the end of the year, you're pulled in front of a jury and a judge and you have to prove, you know, using evidence that you accomplished that goal of being a better blank. What evidence can you point to that you accomplished that? And so for me, I said, I want to be, of all the things, I want to be a better friend to my wife. I said that, like, I feel like we've had a great marriage, but with kids it's hard to have maintain the friendship to the same level, right? So I said, you know, this year I'm going to focus on that. And I said, what evidence would I have? You know, why? Obviously there's an obvious why there. But then the evidence I pointed to was like, look, if I can say I did a night every quarter at a hotel without the kids and we took a vacation without the kids this year and we did a date night at least 50 times throughout the year and we rated our happiness on a regular basis like once a month. And we said, where are we at at the end of the year? If I brought that in front of a jury, I could say, yeah, look, this is the evidence.

I did it.

So, Josh, 2022. You want to be a better what?

Dancer.

All right, moving on.

I do want to be a better dancer.

Okay.

All right. Because I'm terrible.

I can help you with that.

No, you can't. I'm a zero. You're a negative. I don't know.

Josh, I swear, you contribute more to the conspiracy theory that you are Adam Levine every single time. It's like you just can't help yourself but fuel that fire. Dancing.

Yeah.

You know, Maroon 5 does good music, but our stage presence isn't quite where I want it to be. Go Google the lead singer of Maroon 5. Tell me if it's not Josh Dawkins.

Birds are not real.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that guy. Have you guys seen the birds are not real thing?

The New York Times just did a giant.

Right?

I can't figure out if it was a joke.

It was a joke.

Oh, was it really?

Yeah. Yeah. So the New York Times just did a giant write up on it. This guy started this conspiracy that birds were not real. It was to laugh at. Laugh at the absurdity of all the conspiracy theories out there, including that I am Adam Levine.

Yeah. Although I.

You know, he was sexiest man on earth at one point. I think I was at one point also. Yeah.

I mean, you know, your body can't handle its own sexiness. It's literally creating hernias trying to deal with the torque that you're putting on it.

David, in 2022, you want to be a better what?

Jiu jitsu practitioner, friend and leader.

Oh, look at that. He got three of them.

Wow.

Now, why do you want to be better of those three?

In order to be better at jiu jitsu, I have to. I'm trying to say this.

Roll around with more guys with less toes on.

Exactly right. Get more male sweat on. My body can produce myself. No, the problem. One of the things I found in my life is that in real estate and the areas that I'm typically spending most of my time, I'm this quote unquote black belt. Everyone looks up to me. Everybody wants my approval. Everyone says, oh, David can handle anything. And I needed to get around people that were way better than me, that I could learn from and I could be humbled. I find I am most happiest in life when I'm most humble. It is a constant battle with finding success and then getting maybe not prideful all the time, but just you're not dependent on Anything. And it's very difficult to stay grounded. But when I'm humble, I recognize every little good thing that comes my way, and it actually makes me feel good instead of just expecting it should happen. So Jiu Jitsu, a prerequisite to getting better is humility. And that journey will humble you whether you like it or not. So that's. If I can get that right, everything else in life should be better. I want to be a better friend, just for obvious reasons. It forces me to put others before myself, and it forces me to love every day instead of just work every day. I'm okay working every day if it's in a direction I want to go. But ultimately, I want to be a human being that loves better, which means you got to fight yourself all the time and then leader. Because if I can lead the people that are around me, I can help them get on the same path that I'm on as well. So I can exemplify these traits of humility and love and putting other people first and striving to be the best that I can be. And that will create a community of people who have those same values that are around me. And then life's just better when you're living it around people that you like.

Wow, that was a good answer.

You want to top that?

I mean, I'm just thinking about him rolling around with you doing Jiu Jitsu. I mean, I've seen this before and it's not a pretty picture. It's not a pretty picture.

It's really good, man.

You guys wear those tight pants and, you know, I don't know, it looks.

Like a water buffalo and anaconda locked in Mortal Kombat.

It's ugly.

It is.

So, yeah.

Beautiful. While we're on the topic, let me pull us back in here on a topic that's going to help people listening right now.

Let's be serious.

Here we are at the end of the year.

Yes.

Which means this is goal setting time. Everyone knows that. Right? New Year's resolutions.

Oh, yeah.

What do you believe about resolutions and about goals? What's kind of your mindset currently around them and what advice do you have for people on that front?

I think resolutions are bullshit.

Okay.

I mean, like, be honest with yourself. How many of you have come up with resolutions and followed through with them? Most people don't.

Yeah, 92%. I heard the number of don't. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, I instead do what I talked about. I've got this book, and it's. I'm always Making goals. Right. And so in this book, and this all for me, it all came from the man who sold his Ferrari. Monk, who sold his Ferrari.

Yeah.

That book kind of inspired me to make this little black book that I've got that breaks down each phase of my life. And so, you know, it's literally just constantly reviewing that book. The book is on my bedside table. I open it up, I look at it in the mornings, most of the time when I'm on, I look at it all the time when I'm off, maybe a couple of weeks.

Do you find your life better when you're on?

Oh, yeah, of course. Because that book tells me, like, hey, Josh, I set a fitness goal of, you know, like, for example, one of the things in mine is I want to run a triathlon. Before I run a triathlon, I need to get to a marathon before I get to a marathon, I want to do a 10k before I do a 10k, it's a 5k, and so on and so forth. And each of those is a sub goal of the triathlon. And as I get through to each one, I exit out. And so I'll write micro goals within each one. And the reason I want to do that is just because it's something I always thought would be cool and I always wanted to do. But if I were to go, you know, December 31st and say, oh, next year I'm going to run a triathlon, it's not going to happen. Right. I know that in order to get to that triathlon, I've got to knock out all these other things. And I have to constantly remind myself because.

Squirrel.

Right, Dave? Yeah. You know, I mean, it's just shiny object syndrome, right? We're all distracted, particularly with our stupid phones. And so if you've got a system. My system is to have a book. I look at the book in it. I've got all the things again. I have finances, I have health, I have dietary. I have food. Well, that's dietary. I have health, I have love, I have friendship. All those things are on it. Hobbies. And the system works for me. Right? I go back to it, I look at it. You know, Brandon, you've got this great system that you and Heather do every year. It's kind of similar. You guys will write down what it is that you want to accomplish in various areas for the next year. You look at it, you go back, you review it regularly. Dave, knowing you, I know you have your own system. So for me, I think it's BS. I think resolutions you know, like, why wait till December 31st if you're eating like crap and you're not taking care of yourself and you're fooling yourself to say, hey, on January 1st, I'm going to change my diet. You're never going to do it. Do it tomorrow, do it today. Why wait? Yeah.

How many times do we just like the end of the year, people just eat like crap for the whole month because they're gonna start on like, you already. You already lost. Like, you already lost the battle. Because the thing with goals, I once heard this quote. I don't know who said it, but it was basically like, the point of a goal is not to achieve the goal. It's become the kind of person who could achieve the goal.

Right?

So it's like if you're just looking for a diet or some hack or something and you're gonna start, then later on, you've already kind of put that in a box. It's like something. This is not who you are. This is someone you're gonna pretend to be for a short time and then you're not back to who you really are, are. So I want to become. We've said this before, David, right? Like, we want to be the kind of person who wouldn't even think about eating ice cream after dinner. That's not even a problem. Like, it's not even a question, like, of course I wouldn't eat. Why would you eat ice cream after dinner? That's weird, right? I want to be that guy. I want to change my identity around certain areas of my life. Like, not just hit some goal because the goal itself is worthless now. I do like the idea of starting at, like you said, some vision, like, where do you want to be? And then working backwards to. If I want to be a triathlon runner, I work backwards. This year I'm going to do this. But then yearly goals are generally terrible anyway. So you break down to quarterly, Right. What am I going to focus on this quarter? That can be broken down to weekly, that can be broken on daily, and that can be broken down to the individual habits that are going to get you there.

There's a great book. The author's name is BJ Fogg. He actually lives here in Maui. It's called Tiny Habits.

Tiny Habits, which I've not read yet, but yeah.

And it's all about habit stacking.

Yeah.

So it's literal things. Like if you want to do. Let's say you want to do 10 push ups in a day, right? Every day I want to do 10 push ups. Just because I know that's going to build up my arm strength. It's, you know, me working towards some metric of success that I want. So you stack that 10 push ups and I'm probably butchering it, but that's okay. With what is one thing that you do every day, right? Well, I brush my teeth every day, right. So why don't I stack it on top of brushing my teeth every day? So, so put a little. Post it next to your toothbrush that says do 10 pushups.

Right.

Or put it literally on the toothbrush. Do 10 push ups before you brush. Right? So drop then and there, do your 10 push ups and then brush your teeth. And now you're stacking, you're associating brushing your teeth. I love that with the 10 push ups. And little by little, if you do that regularly over, you know, the course of a few weeks, that'll become a habit, right? And then you can stack on top of that habit the next thing. So hopefully I didn't butcher it, but that's kind of the idea of the habit stacking.

Well, it reminds me of that quote. There's a quote. I think they say Aristotle said it, but he didn't. I looked it up once, but it's like we are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is a habit. And I always love that quote. Again, nobody really knows who actually said that.

It was me.

It might have been you originally. We're gonna go with that.

Well, Brandon will take credit for the quote. We know that would be the case. Regardless of who said it, it will go down.

I've got a great quote.

So I didn't invent that one. No, but I, I'm such a big believer that, like, people set resolutions and they set goals, but what I think they should really be thinking on is habits. Exactly that. Because the habits are what turn you into the kind of person. So. And even more than that, one thing I've been reflecting on a lot lately is what I'm calling that a lead habit. Because I don't have a better name for it than that. But here's an example. Let's say you look at your whole life on the wheel of life and you're like, hey, here's the three, four areas I want to focus on. Then if you were to sit down and brainstorm 20 things for each that would actually help you accomplish that, that goal. Right. Or that, that improvement in your life. There are certain things that apply across multiple areas of your life. I'll give you an example. Staying up late on your phone, scrolling right by doing that, it affects your fitness because you're not gonna get up early and go run. It affects your relationship because you're not hanging out with your wife or your husband. Right. It affects your sleep, the number of hours you get, which affects your grumpiness the next day in your happiness. It affects your. Affects so many areas. So what I've been thinking a lot lately is what are those three, four or five, like habits that, that apply across the board? Lead habits that will lead to the life you want to lead. And I'm going to focus on those, I'm going to track them meticulously. And I've been tracking my habits for a long time, but now I'm like, really? What are those key habits that I really want to focus on? And again, phone at night is a big one for me. Everything in my life is better when I do that. When I journal in the morning, like I just said, the days that I'm on, when I do that morning reflection time, when I do the miracle morning kind of thing, everything in my life is better. So it reminds me a little like, you know, the one thing Gary Keller.

And Jake, I was going to say, it's tackling those things that you tend to avoid, right? The things that are harder, the things that are more difficult. You know, if you're building your business, you know, everybody wants to go and make their business card first, right? But they're not spending the time doing the difficult work that's actually going to help them improve their business. And we all do it, right? We're all inclined to go and jump on email because emails are kind of brainless mostly, and you just respond to stuff. So what are the hard things in your life in each phase of your life? And obviously this is a business show, but what are the hard things in your business that you've got to tackle that makes everything else kind of irrelevant? You know, for you? The phone thing's really easy. By the way. Don't bring phone in your bedroom, period. I mean, like, don't put a charger in your bedroom, charge it on the kitchen table or somewhere else and just don't bring it in. I was doing that and then when I stopped, like we go to bed now before 10 o' clock almost every night now, which is game changing because now I'm getting more sleep, I'm feeling better. When I wake up, everything kind of all goes together. So is it getting fit? Well, if it's getting fit, stop drinking soda, stop drinking juices. Just move to complete water. Right. That's an easy first step. May not be that easy for some people, but. But there's just little things that you can do that are actually really big steps towards getting you towards that goal. That's a great point. Yeah.

It reminds me of Tim Ferriss question of what if it was easy? Like asking that question, what if it were easy? Makes you think, okay, what are the easy things I can do? Like plugging the phone in the other room or. I was sitting with Ryan Murdoch the other day, who's one of my partners at odc, and we're chatting about how both of us have that, like we'll just scroll for hours. I'm like, well, there's a timer on your phone. You can set a timer on how long you use social media. Right, Right. But what do I do? I just turn it off every time. And I was like, I've even had my wife set the code so that after 20 minutes of social media it goes off. But then what happens is I'm like, hey, I, I need to post something, honey, can you unblock it for me? And then it's off. And then I'm back into the right. So I was like, well, Ryan, what if we just traded? Like you set my password, I set yours, and we just like, yeah, it's a thousand bucks to buy your way out of a code. Like a thousand dollars. Ryan will put the code in and like all of a sudden you just.

Get some self control.

I don't have any self control. I mean, literally, I put the phone.

In the other another room.

And then I've tried that, but after like a week, I like lose that motivation and it's back in my room again.

So when I get back in your room, you, you get like a accountability.

But that's what it is.

It could be your wife, it could be me. I'll call you and I'll harass you and say, where's your phone? Yeah, I'm holding it. Well, stop calling me.

Yeah, that's actually why I'm such a big believer in this idea of like accountability groups, like, they did this study years ago, a Dominican university did a study on like what makes people actually achieve their goals. And I told this al like two years ago, three years ago at bpcon. But like the different levels basically, like, if you like have a goal, your chance of accomplishment is like 30. If you have a goal and like you write it down, it's like 40. And if you have a goal, write it down and tell somebody it's like 60. Anyway. Ended up being like all the way up to like 90% was basically, you have a goal, you write it down, you tell someone, and you meet weekly with them. Like, when you do those steps and you meet regularly with somebody who holds you to that goal, like, amazing things can be accomplished. This is why we have the intention journal. This isn't meant to be a sales pitch, but, like, we have this intention journal of bigger pockets. And when you get the journals, like, 40 bucks, it's 90 days. You actually. It gives you instructions on the first page on how to join. Like, bigger pockets will help put you in a group of other people who are also doing the journal at the same time. So you can have those meetings, whether it's weekly or every other week, to join together. I just. I found most areas of mass shift in my life have been when I'm in some kind of group like that, because all of a sudden I have people holding me accountable. So, yeah, if you're talking about self control, like, I constantly do, like, I just don't have willpower. Yeah.

Well, that's why Dave calls me every week. And that's why we finally reached your goal, Brandon, stepping down.

You've been working towards this.

I mean, four years now. This is, you know, this has worked out, man. I. I can retire as your accountability partner.

Funny.

It's kind of like that actually kind of reminds me of the way we got David on the podcast. We ever told that story publicly, David?

No, no.

That we need. I think we're good. I think what's important is that Josh left and I filled his seat, and now you're leaving and I'm filling your seat. That's what really matters.

When we wanted. When I wanted David on the show, we just made sure that people were vocal about liking David. We just asked everyone to, if they like David, to let social media know. All of a sudden, social media was full of really positive, responsible David. It was all a lie. It was all. It was. No, it was just intentional.

Look, there was a flood of water that was stopping at the Brandon gate.

And I just opened it up in.

The gate and we let it go to where it could be seen.

No. So let's.

Let's flip this.

Dave. Brandon's about to step down, right?

This is.

This is it. What do you think? Are you ready? Ready to take charge? Fourth in the next phase here? And Brandon, you know, what do you say to those people who are like, oh, man, this sucks. Brandon's leaving. Oh, man, you know what's it going to be like, what do you guys want to say to folks? Because what I would say really quick is BP is really good at putting together fantastic people who have amazing knowledge and who are there to help inspire and guide you. And, you know, when I stepped down, Dave, you stepped in and Brandon, you took charge. And together you guys were incredible. And, and you know, there wasn't a blip, right? And I'd say the same thing. Whomever comes in and steps into to fill the void, it's going to be amazing. And so, you know, I encourage people to not to be sad that Brandon's going not to be sad for Brandon, but to be excited for him on his journey and to look forward to the next phase here. What do you guys want to add?

Anything you want to say first, Brandon?

I'll just piggyback on what Josh said is that, you know, like, when Regis and Kathie Lee, right, were on the morning show, whatever show, today show, right? Or not even today, I don't even know. Live, live, right. With Regent Kathy, Then Kathy Lee left, Regis and Kelly, then Regis left and it was Kelly and Michael, and then Michael left and it was Kelly and now Ryan.

The fact that, you know, all these hosts in the water, I've watched the.

Show for a long time. Actually, little known fact is I, when you and I built the Bigger Pockets podcast nine and a half, ten years ago now, I was watching that show every single morning. Like, my wife had had it on every single day. So, like, while I was getting ready, it was on, right? So we built a lot of what the podcast became like, the segments were, because I watched them have segments that people would respond to. And so the famous four and the quick tip and all that was because I saw what Live with at the time, it was, I think was Regis and Kelly were doing. Anyway, that said, every time the transition happened on that show, people are like, yeah, Michael sucks. Or like, you know, Kelly sucks. And like, it takes a little while to rebuild the relationship you have with the podcast host. So I can just encourage you, like, take time. Like, don't give up if you're like, oh, I don't really like the, you know, we're gonna try out a bunch of different people. We'll play with the idea. We'll have a lot of hosts come in. Give it time. Be patient. Don't give up on it. You will build a relationship. It'll be somebody who brings a lot more life into the podcast than I bring, and it'll be amazing. So be patient. David's gonna crush it. And whoever ends up coming in in the future will crush it.

And before, Dave, you jump in. I just wanna say, even just sitting here today, listening to the three of us talk, hearing myself, hearing Brandon, hearing you, Dave, it gives me great hope. Hearing you particularly, obviously, because I think you've got it, you know, you are ready, man, and to take lead, to take charge. And I don't know, man. You know, I get emotional. Like, it makes me feel really, really good because, like, I have a thousand percent confidence that, you know, it's going to do great.

To use the analogy you used earlier, it's like you stepped away and your kid. You had a kid at graduate high school. You're a grandparent now, is what it is.

All right, David, what do you want.

To say to people?

Very nice of you guys to say. I was not expecting that. Thank you for that. The first thing I would say is I think there's a contingent of people that are going to miss Brandon for a specific reason because he played a specific role. And frankly, Brandon and I had very good chemistry. It's one of the reasons the show went good is we are real friends. We're not just show friends. And that comes across, which is why.

I worked with Josh.

And I too. Same thing.

Yes, that's exactly right. And we think about that as we're trying to figure out, like, who the next co host could be. It's also like, do we bring supplemental strengths to each other? Brandon has a lot to do with my development. I take his advice very seriously. And Brandon has a big heart and will say, hey, you should do this more. You're really good here. Or, why don't you mold this or take the edge off of that? So his influence will still be present even though Brandon isn't present on the show. I'll also say that with this format, it was largely, you know, Brandon's influence that would dominate the majority of the show. And then I would come in and kind of provide color commentary. So sometimes I would have to force my way into the show or I would have to make a point a little longer than I wanted just to get on the microphone at all. Right. Which is not a problem when you're playing with Michael Jordan. You give the guy the damn ball. I was fine with that. But people should expect as I'm moving into the host role, I won't have to do that as much. And so it will be like, the criticism that we typically get is, hey, David's talking over the guests. But then at the same time, we'll hear people say, well, David never talks. So I had to kind of pick like, where are you going to jump in? So that won't be the case anymore. We won't have to worry about that element. And so if you're one of those people that's like, oh, it's going to be David talking the whole time. Definitely not. The solo shows I'm already doing without Brandon, the guest talks more. Brandon is very good when it comes to. I don't. He can see things from the eyes of, like, the layperson at a very high level. He'll notice something in my background that doesn't look right. Man, I could get so laser focused on what I'm doing that I don't even notice that there is a background. Right. So he helps me out a lot in those ways. And then the last piece I'll say is when Brandon said, hey, David, I'm gonna be leaving. We anticipated this is gonna suck. There's gonna be a lot of people that are not happy. So rather than getting defensive and just curling in a ball and saying, I hope it goes okay, we've actually taken the offensive. We're putting together a lot of different show formats. We're going to be providing more content in different ways outside of just the tried and true. Guest comes on, guest tells story. So if you're a person who listens to those shows to get the nuggets of information that will help you on your journey, you won't have to look for them anymore. We're going to have show formats where we're just pushing nuggets out there for everyone to see. So what they can expect is for bigger pockets to take this opportunity to make the show better, not just different, although it will be different, it's also going to be better.

That's also great. That's very exciting. Very, very exciting. I think people have a lot to look forward to. And 10 years later, man, I mean, look at what we did.

I know. Our little baby's all grown up.

You should be proud.

And a little baby's all grown up.

But it's still bald.

Still got baby fat. Oh, there we go. Now we know what my 2020 goals need to be so that when Josh comes back in 2023, he can't say that.

I will say this.

I went to the the go with David here in Dallas a couple weeks ago, and every single person, when they walk up to David goes, dang, David, you're looking good. Like, everybody just kept saying this. I don't know what you've been doing, David, if it's just Jiu jitsu, but, man, you're killing it.

I know what Josh is going to say. He's going to say, well, he set the bar so low that it's easy to exceed it every time someone sees him.

All right, well, we got to get out of here. So I thought maybe we'd close this up with one last famous.

That was really good. I hope they don't. I hope they don't put the sound in there. The sound clip. That was a good. End of an era. So, last question of the last section here is famous source. Won't we all just throw our answers on and maybe not Favorite book. But what's a real estate book that made an impact on your life? Josh? It's been a while. You better say one of mine.

How to Invest in Real Estate by Josh Dwarker.

It made a great impact in my life. I mean, I think for me, real estate book, it would have to be Richest man in Babylon.

I thought you'd say that.

Yeah, It's a great book.

Yeah, I still revisit that from time to time.

I just reread it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So good.

It's great.

It's amazing how you can read that book a hundred times and it never gets old.

I mean, it gets confusingly relevant. The language is hard, but. But it's. I mean, the story is fantastic. Yeah.

David, what about you? What's a real estate book that made impact on you?

Well, I don't. Josh mentioned the. The only book I would say, and when I was on the podcast the first time, that was the book that I mentioned. So here's what I'm going to say. It's going to be long distance real estate investing, but not because I read it. It was because writing that book forced me to develop the ability to take a thought or a concept and articulate it in a way that other people could understand, which ultimately led to my career going down this road of becoming a real estate educator. If biggerpockets would never have given me the opportunity to write that book, I would have never been forced to figure out how do I get what's in my head and make it digestible so other people can understand it. There's a lot of brilliant people in the world, but they can't communicate their brilliance, and so they're kind of useless to the masses. So writing that book really, really helped get me in the position where I am today, and it changed my life in that way. So thank you, BP Publishing.

There you go.

So I'm gonna say a book. You know, obviously Rich Dad, Poor Day was what I said when I was interviewed back on show. Like 92, I think it was. Rich dad, Poor dad was huge. But there's another book called A Million Bucks by 30 by Alan Corey was amazing. Invested in duplexes, triplex and quads from Larry Loft just was a huge impact on me. So those are a few real estate books that were, you know, crushing it in apartments. Commercial real estate from Brian Murray was a huge influence in me getting into the bigger game. But let me ask the alternate question. So when we have our non real estate guests on, on Sundays now we ask the question instead of the real estate book. We say, what are the current habit or trait you're trying to improve in your life right now?

Dave?

Yeah, who wants to go first? Current habit or trait, something you're trying to improve on?

I have two that I'm wrestling with really hard. The first is getting out of a. I don't know the word for it, but it's like a hunting mindset where every day I'm showing up with this edge and I'm like, put something in front of me, knock it over, get on to the next thing. I'm just in like this conquer stage. And I'm trying like I needed that to get to this point in my career. I don't still need that now. Now I'm trying to move more into of a connecting stage where I can be patient, I can let things unfold, and many times the problem will solve itself before I have to intervene. And more importantly, when I'm dealing with other people, helping them to let them solve their own problem. Instead of when I'm in hunter mode, I just want to get in, solve the problem and move on to the next thing. So that is a daily struggle as I'm trying to build that as a habit. If something comes to me instead of just bam, how do I smash through it? Let's let the other person who's struggling with this kind of work their way through that problem so they can grow. And then the other one is really simple. It's just making time to exercise every single day. It does a ton for my mood, it does a ton for a lot of other areas of my life. I will always not have a hard time working or solving problems. But creating exercise as a priority is another. Another habit I'm trying to build. Which is why, like you said, I'm looking different because I'm just the last probably four months or so. I made that a priority.

Very cool. That's awesome. What was the question? Dave just kept talking.

That's what he does. It's crazy. Habit or trait that you're trying to work on? I'll give mine and then, then you.

Can have more time to think.

Sleep simple. I'm trying to get more sleep. I just ordered the aura ring yesterday, so you have that, right? I do, yeah. So that help?

It did not. All right, well, I'm going to return mine, so let's. Well, you finish your thing and I'll explain.

I want to sleep more. I think I'm averaging about six and a half, seven hours a night on average.

I would like to get that up to eight. Yeah.

Give your kids away for adoption, Problem solved. It's that easy.

So if you put your phone away and don't bring it to into the.

Bedroom, I know that would solve that problem as well. See, it's a, it's like trait habit that goes across all your areas.

So the reason the OURA ring did not work for me is because I'm so hyper focused on data. And so if I see a blip where like, oh, I only slept six hours, I start getting in my head the next night. I'm like, oh, I better sleep more than six hours now. You create pressure and tension on yourself. At least that's what I do. Yeah. And so I realized when I got rid of my aura ring, when I stopped wearing it, I was much more relaxed and I took some of the habits that I had. Because sleep is probably one of my number one or number two answers right here. And the way I get there is we get the kids to bed, we'll bust out the iPad, we'll watch a half hour show. It's usually a cartoon, it's usually something light. We don't ever watch anything heavy in bed. Anything like, you know, like controversial or, you know, anxiety. It's usually Family Guy, American dad, or Simpsons. And we'll watch an episode and we'll either fall asleep in the middle of the episode or we'll shut the iPad after that's over and then go to sleep. By 9:30 on a typical day, I still may have some wake ups for whatever reason, the dogs, something else. But that has helped. So sleep would be my. I'd say it's, it's probably one of my top two answers.

Have you read Breath, by the way? James Nestor's book, Breath.

Phenomenal book.

Such a good book. I love it, man. I'm like three quarters Done. I'm just like, this.

This book.

Just like, I'm always thinking about it anyway.

And on that, if you guys are looking for. You know, this show was about transition, right? The show was about phase change. It's about mindset. One of the things that I did, because I was struggling to figure out what that next phase was, I started to dive into these health books, particularly because I did have some health things that I and my family went through. And so I've read a lot of books on health. I am not an expert on health, however, I'm becoming an expert on my own health. But I would definitely encourage people, if you have not taken the time, to go and read a book on health, on wellness, mindfulness, exercise. Even if it's not a how to. Even if it's like a fictional story, like Born to Run, a book about. Yeah, you read that. So I think it gets your mind attuned to, like, you know what? I really need to make this part of my life.

Yeah, we'll read 100 business and productivity books. But when's the last time you read a book on improving your health or marriage or parenthood? Like, yeah, like, we. I struggle with that. Like, I just want to read books that make me rich versus and I.

Stopped reading those books. I. I focus on the health books, the mindset books, and I'm like, on to fiction finally, again, which is great.

So that's cool, man. Anyway, all right, next question. Listen, business book that's made a big influence on your life. The biggest influence on your life.

Why don't you go first this time?

Or I'm going to say a current favorite. This maybe isn't like, the best of all time, but I'm going to say a book called 4000 Time Management for Mortals has made a dramatic impact on my life this year, along with another one very closely related on topic, which is called the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry. They're both very much on slowing down and thinking differently about your days. So, yeah, Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by a guy named John Mark comer. And then 4,000 weeks. I don't remember who wrote that, but that one's so cool. I gotta get you to read that one. You'll love it. It's just like a different way. It's like, rather than thinking like, here's how to get to Inbox Zero. It's more of like a psychological, like, why do you feel the need to get to Inbox Zero? So it's very much more like, let's pull back and have a different look at time management than most books. So that one and then gap of the gain were both like three impact ones. All right, David, what about you?

I really like the Cal Newport book. So good they can't ignore you.

I am.

To sum it up, it's all about we all whine, want things in the same things in life. We want financial freedom, we want wealth, we want health. Well, there is a current trend in the world that we feel entitled to this, and so other people should be giving it to us. And he gives examples in that book of someone who started a blog and said, I want to travel the world and blog about my experiences, and all my followers can then support me in my goal, and I can get my dreams off of the backs of the people that are following. And he realized nobody cared about what I was doing. As opposed to get so good at what you're doing that you become incredibly valuable. And then you can name your price at whatever it is and you can have the life you want. And what I love about it is, well, a, it's empowering, but B, it forces me to become successful by providing value to the world, whether that's your employer, your business, the relationship you're in with somebody else. It is a healthier way to look at life than feeling like I'm entitled to have a great marriage, and so I shouldn't have to work at it. And I just. When I read that book, man, it was. It just hit, right, the perfect chord. And I knew, like, that's. I'm giving myself full permission to go that way.

All right, I like that. I like that a lot.

Business book.

Wow. Look at those eyes. Unbelievable. So blue, so hairy. Mom.

Business book. What are you gonna name? Well, the Monk.

You know, in the last. I'd say in the last two or three years, I don't think I. I've picked up a business book. So, you know, my. I was on total burnout from reading nothing but business books for a long time. I'll have to go to Monk. I'll have to go to Monk. Monk was less business, more life, but really was about, like, don't grind until you die. Find balance, right? Figure out what it takes to become a balanced human being. Money is nothing if you're unhappy. And so, you know, we all think that money is going to solve all of our problems. And this is a show about money and a business that. That's designed to help people with money. But at the end, what we talked about earlier was money is a means to an end. It's not the end itself.

It's one of nine areas of your life.

Exactly. Yeah. So find that balance. And that's why I liked Monk. You know, some.

And that's the monk who stole his Ferrari by Robin Sharma.

Sharma, yeah. Very cool.

All right, next question. Hobbies. What have been into? Jiu jitsu for me, jujitsu for David. What about you, Josh?

Hobbies. Watching contractors screw up. There you go. It's a big hobby.

A long project.

A lot. A lot of screw up. Oh, man. I mean, surfing has. Has definitely been a big pickup. Big, big pickup. Yeah. Tennis was in a big, big pickup. And. And I know you've now picked up tennis. Yeah. It'll be. It'll be a while.

So I can be Josh.

It'll be a while before you're even allowed to play with me. I won't be seen at the same court as you.

For once. I can hit the ball, like one out of five times.

Tennis has been big, but outside of that, honestly, one of the things I've really, really enjoyed is going to the beach with my kids and building, like, sand sculptures. I'm really enjoying that. It's so cathartic and just forces you to just sit and focus and just be creative. So I've really enjoyed the arts side of it.

Maybe that's how Brandon can wean himself away from his phone to get him out there building sandcastles.

I did read a book on that race on how to build perfect, the big, huge sandcastles and how that who things done.

Let's do it.

Yeah.

There really is a book about everything. Is about everything. Everything.

So I love books. All right, last question, and we'll keep it short because I got a dentist appointment in 28 minutes and it's 30 minutes away. All right, what separates successful real estate investors from those who give up, fail, or never get started? There's obviously a million answers here, but let's give a quick what's your thoughts, David? You want to start this one?

Yeah.

There's so many answers we've had over the years. Here's what I found from the agent business, and this is probably going to surprise a couple of people.

Table.

It's often having capital. If you just don't have money or you have a tiny bit, you can invest in real estate with low or no money down, but you won't. If that little $15,000 is all you have, and that's your baby, you just won't go. Take action. So one of the things that we found is, like, before, you can get into investing. You got to get your own financial house in order. It is okay to go. Try to get a better job and work hard at your job and spend money eating out less or not have as nice of a car are like, if you can get to where you feel comfortable that you're saving money every single month, the fear of losing what you have will be lessened so you can actually go deploy that capital and then you realize how awesome real estate is and you get addicted.

I love it. I love it.

What about you?

I would say committing to the pain. I mean, there's a learning curve, right? And nobody knows everything no matter what you think. And so we're all going to start it at some point. We're all going to start new. And don't be afraid to take that first step. Fear is what gets in everybody's way in changing their life for the better, whether it's health, wealth, real estate, you name it. So overcome that fear. And the way to overcome that fear is to educate yourself, Come up with a plan and take those baby steps towards that plan. Be relentless in doing that and you'll get there. But you got to get past that fear and stop being afraid. You're going to screw up. It's going to happen. Don't be afraid of it. Accept it and be a problem solver. That's good, man.

I'm going to rip off your answer there and make it very similar, but I'm going to. I'm going to case it in a story about you or an example of you. I've said this before, but I'll say it again now that Josh here is the greatest entrepreneur I've ever known. And I say that not because of your intelligence, which is high, and not because of your skill set. And all that is because of one thing, is that you built bigger pockets for a decade with no proof it was going to be successful. What I call it is like the dip or the, the trench. We've called it that, Right? Remember the trench we talked about a long time ago? Right? Like you got through this crap.

Then Melinda Gates wrote a book with that lift.

Lift, yes, you achieve lift after many, many years. And 99.9% of entrepreneurs, real estate investors included in there, they give up in the. The trench, in the wallow when they're not making money. And like, because it's exciting, any business, exciting. And then reality sets in and everyone gives up. And you didn't give up on bigger pockets for years and years and years until you scraped by just enough money. To pay me to edit some blog posts. And then we started a podcast. We scraped by for a long time until you had enough, like to hire Scott Trench. And then, you know, Scott's now CEO or c. Yeah, CEO. And light. You got through the trench. And the secret to success and almost every person I've ever known successful in business is they got through the trench. They got through the difficult part that comes after the excitement but before the climb. So that's what takes. And that's what it takes. I think that's what I've seen you do, David. I think I've done it through my real estate, and I've seen you do it through bigger pockets and now your real estate and everything else. So, yeah, you're an example to millions, man.

Appreciate you, man. Thank you. We appreciate you, Brandon. I mean, this is.

Is.

This is a big farewell. So, you guys, Brandon is embarking on a. A new journey here. I encourage you to follow him on his social media channels. Brandon, what are those social media channels?

Oh, thank you.

How do people follow you?

Beardy Brandon. Beardy Brandon on social media and beardybrandon.com.

Yeah, that's awesome.

What about Dave? Where can people find out more about you?

David Green, 24. Pretty much everywhere. LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, all of it. Oh, and I have a new and revamped website, davidgreen24.com. Just add the e at the end of Green.

I want to go and check this.

24, 7, 3, 6, 5.

All right, Josh, where do people find more about you?

Joshua? Dorkin.com is the website. It just talks about me and who I am. But if you want to interact and connect with me, Twitter is the place. It's rdorkin. And, you know, whether you've got business ideas or if, you know, you just want to shout me out, happy to chat with anybody as long as I have time. It's hard. We get hit up a lot, all of us, and so if we don't respond to you, don't despair. We still love you. We still love you. There are other people out there that you might want to hit up as well. It's just. It really is hard because we all do get beat up on social media and email and elsewhere so often, so. So make yourself stand out if you want us or anyone else to really respond to. Awesome, man.

Well, I'm going to hand the baton for the final time over to David Green here. David, welcome to the host of the Bigger Pockets podcast. Man, you want to get us out of here?

Thank you. Very much. I will do so. Thank you for staying late. Brandon. I know that your tooth hurts real.

Bad and it does not.

Thank you for joining us. Josh is doing the hemorrhoid and not a hemorrhoid.

Sorry, Josh, I didn't mean for a personal conversation.

By the way, Scott Trench, David Green is going to be replaced.

Yeah, Josh is still on the board. I don't know. I don't know if you knew that one, David.

All right, well, thank you guys. This is David Green. For bigger pockets, OG's Brandon Turner and Josh the Godfather, Lila Dworkin signing off.

Thank you all for listening to the Biggerpockets Real Estate Podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian Kay, copywriting is by Calico, content and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.biggerpockets. the content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk, so use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose. And remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. BiggerPockets LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential or other damages arising from a reliance on information presented in this podcast.