58: Flipping and Wholesaling Homes While Working Full Time with Justin Silverio

This is the bigger pockets podcast show 58.

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Josh. Hey, what's going on, everybody? This is Josh Dworkin, host of the Bigger Pockets podcast, here with the man in plaid, Brandon Turner.

The man in plaid. That's a good one. I do wear a lot of plaid. You do? Almost every day. Yes. Washington. We're like lumberjacks.

I was gonna say. I'm shocked you don't have an axe over your shoulders right now.

I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay. I sleep all night and I work all day. You know that.

That would be like the Paul Bunyan Song or something like that.

Now.

It was an old Monty Python skit.

Well, you know, I'll link to it.

I'll link to it in the show notes.

Okay.

All right.

Check the show notes. Check the show notes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All right, man.

So how you doing? Everything going well?

I'm great.

I'm great. Yeah.

I. I think I just accidentally picked up another six plex.

Yeah, so I said I wasn't going.

To buy anything, and then somebody offered to do seller financing on it, so whatever.

Yeah, see, I accidentally, like, buy a T shirt or get an extra cup of Starbucks. Brandon accidentally picks up a sixplex.

Yeah, yeah. The guy was tired of handling it, so he just said, here, will you just handle it?

So, Brandon, I'm going to invite you to a new movement that I'm starting called Investors Anonymous.

My name is Brandon, and I am addicted to buying property.

I have a problem. Yeah, I'll talk about it later on the blog if it goes through. So, anyway, so we have exciting news, though. Do you want to. You want to share the new thing that just came out on the site this week?

Do I want to introduce our quick tip. Quick tip. By the way, thank you to the guy who said he was really happy to hear the quick tip back because, I don't know, we really love doing this quick tip.

Sorry, you have to listen. But yeah, anyway. All right, today's quick tip. Just this week, we released a free ebook for Biggerpockets members titled Biggerpockets Presents Diary of a New Construction Project. It was written by Jay Scott, who also wrote the book on Flipping houses and the book on estimating rehab costs. By the way, if you don't have either of those books, you definitely need to get your hands on them. You could pick them up today@biggerpockets.com flippingbook and buy those. They're awesome. Really, really top shelf. Anyway, for those of you guys on the forums, you probably remember seeing J. Scott documenting his first spec build over the past. Well, now he's put all that information into one really, really good ebook that you could download 100% free today. This ebook, it's 157 pages and it follows Jay from start to finish as he builds a new construction spec home with no detail left out. It's got photos, receipts, graphs, charts and lots of stories about the good, the bad and the ugly of spec building. So if you go to the show notes@biggerpockets.com show58, we'll have a link for you there to download the book for free. And that, my friend, is today's quick tip.

All right, Nice work.

Yeah, it's good man. That ebook is definitely solid.

Yeah, yeah, I like it quite a bit.

Yeah.

Even if you're not in the spec building, there's still like a ton of good information in there.

Yeah, I was going to say just for somebody, I've never done a spec and I went through it, I'm like, oh my God, there's just so many details in this thing that you can garner. So it's awesome and it's free. Indeed. All right, cool. Well, moving on to the show. So today we've got a really, really cool guy. He's very active on the BiggerPockets forums. His name is Justin Silverio. Justin's a real estate investor from the Boston, Massachusetts area. And as he'll tell us in the show, Justin's working a full time job currently. He's actually flipping three houses while working a full time job and he's got a whole lot of things going on in his business. He's got great advice on getting started, building systems, wholesaling, working with partners and a whole lot more. So we're very excited to have him on board really quick again. Today's show notes can be found@biggerpockets.com show58 and if you've got any questions for Justin after listening, jump on those show notes and be sure to ask him. He'll be there to answer your questions for you.

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That's hostfinancial.com with that, let's get to the show. Justin, welcome to the podcast. Nice to have you.

Thanks Josh and Brandon, I'm pumped to be here.

We are pumped to have you and thank you for saying, Brandon, you're. You're good in my book.

Today I want to pump it up.

What was that, Justin?

Brandon isn't quite of age. Can you explain?

Was that Hans and Franz? Was that what that was? Oh, because it sounded like. It sounded like, I don't know, a dying elephant or something.

Moving on.

Yeah, welcome. What's up, Justin? So So you're. You're. You're from Boston, right?

That's right, I am.

Oh, man. You're my mortal enemy now.

Why?

Well, you know, I'm a. I'm a diehard Mets fan, and the Red Sox are just, you know, we're not fans.

Well, I'm not too big of a sports fan, so that's good. Yeah, you don't have to be too concerned.

Fabulous.

No longer mortal enemies.

We will not box in the middle of this interview.

We still could.

It might be fun.

That might be fun.

I'd pay to see that.

Might be fun.

All right, you're a real estate investor. You've been around. You've been on BP for a while. What are you currently doing? What kind of investing are you focusing on right now?

My primary focus right now is on.

Rehabs, so fix and flip type of stuff.

Yeah, exactly. Single family homes.

My county and another county around me.

Okay, and are you in like, the city, Boston proper, or are you out in the burbs?

So I'm. I'm north of Boston, Middlesex, Essex County. So it's about 30 miles north of Boston.

Gotcha. Okay. And is that. Would that be considered more rural or is that really suburban?

It's. It's more suburban.

It is. Okay. Right on. So you're flipping houses up there, rehabbing.

How'd you end up getting started? How'd your whole real estate career kick off?

So it actually took me three attempts before I got started in real estate. Back in 2006, my wife and I just got married and we were looking for a place to buy. My father always had rental properties as I was growing up, so he always instilled in me, come on, buy a rental property. Live in one side, rent out the other. And I think Brandon started off the same. So I was looking for two family. But as everybody knows, 2006 market was at its very peak. So two families around my area were about four or five hundred thousand in a decent area. Numbers just didn't work out. So we kind of passed off on the two family. Just went to the single family that kind of ended that. 2008 came around, started getting back in real estate just because of the hgtv. I think a lot of that kind of inspired me to get back into the game. Went on to bp, was poking around the forums, and it never actually took off. Just because I had so many things going through my head, I didn't know where to begin. So it kind of just fizzled out.

They have help for that, by the way.

I know. I did seek help right after that.

Nice.

2010 rolls around. My father, he's a general contractor. He knew I was trying to get into real estate investing. So we kind of have a conversation. He was asking me, whatever happened to that, you get into real estate investing? I said, it just didn't work out. So he really pushed me to get started back doing that. So 2010, end of 2010, I started to kind of lay the groundwork, talk to some real estate agents, did some NETWORKING. And in 2011, we actually found our first deal through a real estate agent.

Nice.

Hey, I want to. Obviously we're going to talk about that first deal, but before we do, can we go back to. You know, you tried a couple times to get into it and didn't. And the second time you said it was. You had a lot of things going on in your head. And I think that's a problem that a lot. A lot of people face, like that. That fear or the, I don't know, analysis, paralysis, whatever. Do you have any advice? I guess I'm wondering for people that are listening to the show that are in that exact spot right now.

Yeah. What I would recommend is one, join your local networking event, Aria, because that can really help you out. I just didn't know where to start with if I needed to look at. Find some contractors, if I needed to find money, how I could find these deals. I mean, I was just kind of all over the map going back to it. I would just really focus on finding a deal first and then after that, figuring everything else out. But.

Real estate meetings, Those have been really helpful in just understanding what I need to do now. And I guess what I can wait till the future to start researching. Okay.

Yeah, that's cool. I like to hear that. I mean, how people have personally overcome that and what they would do if they were going back. I mean, I'm a. I love that question. It's one of my favorite questions is what would you do differently if you were gonna go back and do things again? And that's a good answer. So anyway, going back, you. Your first property you found, what was that like?

Yeah, so my first property, this first off, I would not have pulled the trigger on this deal if it wasn't for my father and. And that other real estate agent that introduced me to the property. It was a small ranch, about 1000 square feet. Needed a complete rehab, complete interior, gut. It was a really small house. So we figured we needed to build a small addition onto the house, and then we needed to completely Reconfigure the whole floor plan because it was really wacky with different, with steps going to different rooms. So it was just built very strange.

So we got into that deal.

We.

Got into it, purchase price about 255,000. And that was just about one of the lowest price points you could get in to that town because it's a very desirable town with great school systems. So we knew our back end sales price was going to be pretty strong because there were a lot of buyers in that market.

Gotcha.

How did you find that one? Was that mls?

That was the MLS at the time. The deals were still on the MLS in my area and you could scoop them up pretty easily.

So what made you jump on this? I mean, you see all these properties, why'd you pull the trigger on this particular one?

The reason why is that the current owner, she had lived there for about 50 years and she ended up move pretty quickly into a retirement home. And the real estate agent, that was actually the listing broker, I knew her, she was a family friend. So she just said, you know, she was giving me insight on my back end sales price, getting me comfortable with that. And then my father as well as my real estate agent, that was our buyer's agent, they were just pointing out the things that we could use with the property to really increase the value in this home.

And how did you fund it then? How did you afford it?

So this property, my father and I funded it with our own cash.

Okay, so you funded with your own cash, you bought it for 255. Then what did you end up putting into it? Do you remember?

Yeah, we put in about 80,000.

Did you do all the work? I mean, do you do that work yourself or do you hired it all out?

Well, funny thing is, is we actually hired everything out. Even though my father's a general contractor, I wanted to make sure that we weren't using his guys. We actually went out get our own crews. So as we were going through the rehab, I mean we had a number of contractor issues that we ran into and we actually had to spend some weekends doing the work ourselves.

I've been there.

What kind of issues were those?

Just for curiosity sake, Contractors not showing up, having issues on.

No, that didn't happen. Stop. It.

Still happens to this day. I'll tell you.

No, those guys are always on time and happy.

But yeah, so I mean, one issue after another, some contractors we didn't have and I didn't have any processes in place, so I didn't have them sign any contracts. So basically, if we paid them upfront deposit, which was somewhat, very minimal, just to buy the materials, there was one contractor that just kind of ran off with the money. I mean, it wasn't big money, but still, it was a tough thing to go through for my first rehab.

You know, it's messed up. So if a homeowner doesn't pay a contractor, they slap a mechanic's lien on your house. But if a contractor runs off with all your cash, you're screwed unless you go and sue them. You know, it's like, come on now.

Yeah, there's really nothing you can do. I mean, we tried to have our attorney send him a letter, but, I mean, there was no response at all.

So what was. What was your mistake? I mean, your mistake was what? Not getting it in writing, I'm assuming. Like, do you have any other kind of thoughts on that? What you could have done differently?

Sure. So we had them sign.

I would have them sign independent contractor agreements, a scope of work. Some other documents that I always get from my contractors now are W9s. A copy of their. Any licenses they have, their actual driver's license. So I know where they are, they live, and they say who they say they are. They actually are. And I have a story about that later on.

I want to hear that.

But yeah, so that's the type of thing. Those are the things that we do right now. So if I had known this earlier, I would have implemented that.

Well, that's great advice. I mean, you know, I do that with babysitters. If a babysitter comes in, I don't get W9, but we'll take photos of their driver's license so that we know who they are, where they live. You know, it's. It's just one of those. One of those things. I think that's kind of a cool piece of advice somebody had given me. But I'm curious now. I want to hear this story about what. What happened here with the. The identity fraud or whatever the hell that was.

All right, so it's a. It's a long winded story, but I'll keep it short. A project that we're actually still working on. Very big rehab. We're going over about $120,000 right now in the rehab. But this contractor basically defrauded myself and my partner.

He has a long history of defrauding people.

About.

I think he started about two or three years ago. I mean, he has about a million dollars worth of.

Fraudulent work that he's tried to do, and he Just screwed people out of. So there has been a big case against this guy. We actually are just going through the final stages of him going through court and him being in jail and all that stuff.

So.

Yeah, I mean, this guy, the one thing I didn't get and now I do is a license on everybody.

So he was able to defraud you?

Why?

Well, why exactly? I mean, you know, what was. What is having his license gonna do to help you not get screwed over by somebody like this?

His. The person that he claimed to be, he was not in a false name. He was using a false business name. He had references that were basically his. His relatives saying that he was doing the work and doing a great job. So he had a lot of things in place. He actually forged insurance documents.

Oh, man.

I mean, he. He went very far to try to cover his steps and make sure we went through, but I mean, he was. The way that we found out that he was defrauding us is his work just wasn't meeting our standards. So he was doing a lot of things wrong. And we were just talking to his crew and they were basically all hired off of Craigslist and not. There was one guy I was talking to, he was a painter working on some structural work, structural framing. So that kind of threw up the red flag. We fired him. And we're still just trying to wrap up the property now.

Wow. Wow. Wow. Well, that. I mean, that's a horrible story, but hopefully for the listeners, a lesson for everybody to learn from.

I'm sure anybody who's been in the business a while has been screwed in some way, shape or form by a contractor, which is really sad. It really is. But that's a really great tip for how to protect yourself. Yet another way to protect yourself. So I definitely appreciate you sharing that story.

So the first deal you did, let's kind of finish that thing up. So you're in at 255. You put 80k into the project. That leaves us at 335. And what do we end up getting out at?

So we ended up exiting out at 367 5.

367 minus commissions and whatnot. Or is that after commissions?

That's actually the net sales price that we had. So that's before. Sorry, gross sales price. So that's before subtracting out your commissions.

And all of that.

Okay.

So our net profit on that was about 13,000.

Okay. Okay. So it was pretty lean, pretty tight. Flip. How long did that project take?

That took about twice as long as we originally Anticipated. Go figure. And I think we actually close to close. I think it was about five or six months.

Wow. There was. Go ahead, Brandon.

Oh, go ahead.

No, you got it.

Okay. Okay. I was going to say, because there was a post. I forget who it was. Who wrote a post this week about. I think it was Mike lacava wrote a post on the Biggerpockets blog this week, and we'll point to it in the show notes@biggerpockets.com show58 about flipping houses. Make sure you don't flip houses at the rate of a minimum wage. Yeah. And if you take the time that you've got into this thing, it sounds like it was one of those deals. Right.

So the way I look at it is it was my first deal, I actually made some money, so it was more of a learning experience for me, and I could exit out, make a little bit of cash, and I learned a ton through that, that first rehab.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, yeah, I was thinking, what's cool about that? A lot of people, you know, go and drop 40, 50, $60,000 on an education of some kind to try to learn how to flip houses. When you got paid $13,000 to learn how to flip houses. I mean, I think that there's nothing wrong in that at all of getting, you know, the school of hard knock sometimes teaches you better than a, you know, $60,000 boot camp or something. So congrats.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I. When I go. Going back to all the research that I've done, I mean, I probably read about 20 books, and from my. I learned best when I do things, so I really felt that this was a. The best learning experience that I could have had and going through it, doing it myself. Yeah.

That's awesome.

And you certainly had an advantage. I mean, having the ability to plop down the cash on your own with. I think you said it was your dad. Was it?

Yep.

Obviously, that's nice. And puts you in a position, which is great. I mean, I think a lot of folks starting out would love to be in that position. And ultimately the question is, how can they get there? You know, how do you get to a point where you can do these kinds of deals with other people's money or through financing? And.

That'S for another show, but that's great. That's awesome, man. So you did this one flip, you come out, you got this education, you made a little bit of money, and you were excited, and you went and did another X number of deals or what came next.

Yeah. So the very Next thing was I wanted to make sure that I had, I learned from my mistakes, I put processes in place and I started my llc and I actually wrote up a business plan, a pretty in depth business plan to start talking to lenders.

And I think that's really key right there. What you said, Justin, is you formed a business plan. And that's one thing I always like to say, is that a business plan is like a roadmap, where it really helps to have one. If you're going to drive across the country to have a map to know where you're going, flipping houses or whatever you're doing, real estate, it really helps to have some kind of roadmap. So maybe we can expand on that a little bit on the kind of what does your business plan look like? I mean, how formal was this thing and what did you kind of do to do it?

Yeah, sure. So, yeah, my business plan, I wanted it to be pretty in depth. So it covers anything from our acquisition strategy, marketing, how we're going to sell the properties, what's the general rehab, demographics and statistics of the areas that we're going to be rehabbing in. So the business plan was not only huge for me to kind of make a path for where I wanted to go with my real estate investing, but it was huge for me when I started talking to lenders because it would actually show them that I'm serious about the business and they could see where I am, where I wanted to go and how I would get there. So they knew I had an in depth thought process of my business.

That's cool. And we talked, we touched on that quite a bit a couple of weeks ago when we interviewed Jimmy Moncrief on show 55. He was the bank underwriter who basically, I mean, kind of talked about how you should approach a bank. And that was one of the things he said is come prepared with a nice business plan and show up with something that's, you know, professional looking and thorough and impress them. And there's so many people who don't do that. So the people who do stand out and actually put the work in to make a nice business plan tend to get a lot better terms rates a lot more yeses, really. So very cool. Let's, let's kind of go back to your story then a little bit. So you, you did the, the business plan, did you go do more flips than at that point?

So at that point, that was late 2011 and I developed my business plan and I didn't do my next rehab until about 2012 and 2012.

Wow. So what. What was it that kind of got you jumping on the next. On the next deal?

At the end of 2011, I started marketing to motivated sellers, and I actually got my first good lead in the beginning of 2012.

Gotcha. Gotcha. All right, so you began marketing to motivated sellers. Let's kind of go back to zero on this. What does that mean? Who's a motivated seller? How do you know where to find these people? Sure.

So I was sending mail out to mostly absentee owners.

Okay.

So absentee owners within my farm area that are more likely to be motivated to sell if, you know, something happens, if they are a tired landlord or they're out of state and they just don't want. Don't want to deal with the property anymore. So that's who I was really targeting.

Okay, so you were marketing to absentee landlords, guys who just aren't on the property, who are out of town, out of the way. How are you. How are you reaching out to them? Were you sending them letters, postcards? And how do you find a list of these people? Where do you find out about them?

Yeah, sure. So, yeah, in the beginning, I was just marketing to absentee owners. Since then, I've actually grown my list to different areas, but I was sending letters to them. I was writing the letters myself, writing out the envelopes, and mailing out to them. My wife's a real estate agent, so I have access to the mls. So you can scrape this information off the MLS really easily.

Nice.

Okay. Okay. So you were looking for. I guess you were just writing letters to. What kind of criteria were you looking for? I mean, was that your only criteria? They were out of the area, or were you looking for equity or anything like that?

So with the mls, you can't pull equity. That's the only aspect that you can pull. But I was narrowing down my criteria by.

Square footage, number of bedrooms, number of baths, the style of the property. And all of this is based on my research to identify what sells the absolute best in that area.

Ooh, that's smart. And that's something that a lot of people probably don't do. They just want to buy whatever because they can buy something cheap. But if you work it from that angle of what's going to sell the fastest, that makes a lot of sense. You mentioned you were writing them yourself. I mean, like, what did that look like? You were sitting down with a pencil and paper, actually writing them.

Then I started with the pen.

Yep.

Absolutely. I started with the pen. On a legal pad.

Nice.

And then I graduated doing it on the computer and just mail merging everything.

So you did like a handwritten font and just printed it out?

Yeah, exactly, exactly. It worked out nicely.

And how many were you. How many, I mean letters. How many letters were you sending out every month?

At the time I was probably sending out maybe three to 400. Okay.

That's a lot of writing. I can understand why you switched the computer.

Yeah, it took a long time. It basically took all my time just to write the letters and I had no time else for real estate investing.

Nice.

So that's something I must. Yeah, I think that's one of the first things people start to outsource.

Automate.

Absolutely.

So what do these letters say?

So they were basically your standard yellow letter. Hi, my name is Justin. I saw you on a property at 123 Main Street. I would like to buy it. Give me a call and I'd have my phone number.

Okay. And I don't know if you'll know these numbers, but I'm just curious if you happen to. What kind of like response rate do you get? Maybe were you getting or now are you getting like how many people you send out a thousand letters, how many people are going to give you a call and how many deals can you expect from that?

It really varies. Now I do track everything, but I haven't looked to see because I want a little bit more data before I find it. Look at my response rate. But the last mailing that I did I got about 3%.

Response rate.

Okay, so 3%, we're calling you back. And then did you get any deals out of that or. I mean, I guess it's hard to tell on a smaller number.

But yeah, so I'm still working. There is some very good potential deals, but I'm still working on them. But right now I'm currently sending out about 6,000 letters a month.

Wow.

So I've definitely ramped it up since I started. Wow.

Okay, so 6,000 letters, month. We got about 180 responses. And then you know of that. What kind of deal flow are you tending to do per month based upon that?

So I've really increased to about 6,000 within the last couple months. And because I've had so many projects, I have about three projects going on and I'm doing this on a part time basis that it's really tough for me to call all these people back. So I know I'm letting go of some leads. So to get a real good deal rate, I can't tell you right now because I'm really not calling everybody back. But I just started. I just hired a VA to help me out with that.

Okay. And you said you're busy because you're working a full time job while you're doing all this, isn't that correct?

Exactly.

Okay.

All right, so I want to talk about that. I want to talk about the VA stuff as well. But let me just finish this thought here. So you're getting all these calls, people are getting back in touch with you, and that stuff's all just getting lost. Right.

Some of it is if they leave a message, most likely I'm calling them back. If they don't leave a message, those people aren't getting return calls because I just don't have the time.

Okay. So I'm not going to pick on you, but I'm going to pick on you a little bit. So are you then wasting money marketing for too many deals that you can handle at this point is what it sounds like to me.

Yeah. So that's actually really pushing me to get someone else in here. So that's why I immediately had to hire a va. Gotcha. They're starting actually tomorrow.

Oh, nice.

Do all this. Yeah.

Oh, that's awesome. Okay, so just to kind of continue on this line of thinking though. So you hire this va, the VA could now take care of answering more calls, which may potentially turn out to bring you more deals. But you've already got three deals going on. Do you have the infrastructure to handle those? And I'm not saying this to kind of pick on you, but I'm saying this. I think it's a pretty good example because you're busy doing your full time job. I couldn't imagine doing three flips while working a full time job and be looking out for additional deal flow.

Are you getting to that point of I got to get the heck out of my job or if your boss is listening, that's not happening.

I could say maybe, but the three flips that I'm doing, they're at various stages.

Is under contract right now. Another one's going to be on the market next week, and the third one still has a ways to go. So regardless of if I can take it on or not, I have wholesaling in place. So I have a number of buyers around me that can pick up these deals.

Got it, Got it. Okay, so you've got multiple exit strategies that you can handle if the deal flow continues and opportunities present themselves.

Exactly, exactly. And I'm really. And I'm really building this marketing machine. So if the day ever does come that I do want to start doing this full time, my lead funnel will be there. Okay.

Hey, you mentioned wholesaling. And just in case somebody hasn't listened to the BiggerPockets podcast, one of our shows on wholesaling. Can you kind of explain what you mean by that and, and what you're talking about when you say you can kind of handle, you can kind of get these leads income even if you're not flipping them?

Yeah, sure. So wholesaling, essentially getting a property under contract and assigning that contract to another buyer, whether that's an investor or a homeowner.

And that sounds pretty complicated. Justin, what's entailed in flipping a contract to somebody, do you have to get all sorts of documents in place? What's required?

No. So I have, I have two contracts. I have a contract to purchase that basically says, and the only thing that's different on that it says the buyer is my company name and or assigns. That's the only change. And then on the, there's another contract, an assignment contract that basically says, I'm assigning this to the end buyer, they're taking over the contract, they're going to step into my shoes and here on out, the seller is going to be dealing with them.

Gotcha. Okay. So the first contract is with the seller and it's your company andor assigns and that second agreement, who signs it and when.

So the second contract, the end buyer signs it, I sign it and it's after I get the property under contract.

Gotcha. And then when you're at close, you bring these two agreements together to the closing and you either do a simultaneous close or back to back.

I mean, with these assignment contracts, I'm actually not a deal, I'm just assigning it to someone so I don't have to close the deal.

I would actually be just on the HUD showing there is an assignment fee. So that's how I'd be getting paid is when the end buyer closes with the. The seller.

Gotcha. Okay, so you're literally, and I'm asking this because I know there's people listening and who are like, well, you know, it sounds complicated, but maybe it's really not that bad. You sign this first contract, it's a purchase contract. You got all the information on the purchase contract says enter signs, and then you go out and you start marketing it. If you can't find a market somebody to buy it, you're obviously stuck to buy it yourself. Unless you have some out, but you now go and you find a new buyer. You find this new buyer and you hand them the second contract. They sign this contract and your part is pretty much done. And essentially you wait till close. And at close you get on the, you're on the hud and at close you get your cash.

Exactly. And usually I'm having my attorney close the deal in the end. So I know that she understands the property, she understands the situation, and I can be sure that she's going to actually close the deal. Because some attorneys don't really know what assignment is and how to deal with it. I know she can actually close the deal.

The new buyer and the seller at that point. How do you know that they don't just kind of close this deal without you? Yeah, you have these contracts, but, you know, are you invited to come to the close? How does, how does all that work?

I don't need to go to the close and they can't go around me because I already have that property on a contract. There's a sign agreement between me and the seller.

Gotcha.

Well, they could, they could go around you. You just have to, you know, sue them. Right.

They, they could go around me. But then again, that other investor would get a bad name and most likely other people wouldn't deal with them.

Okay, yeah, that makes sense. So how did you, I mean, how are you finding these people to sell the deals to? If you're gonna wholesale a deal with somebody, how are you finding them?

So it's really networking events. I mean, I've built most of my buyers list and people that I'm talking to through networking events. Wholesaling is still kind of a secondary, very small. It's. I'm just building it up because I'm still really focused on the rehabs. So I have more, I have more than plenty of buyers on my list. But I know there are just about two or three buyers that are about doing 50 deals a year. So they can probably handle just about everything.

Gotcha. Gotcha. Hey, so I want to circle back really quickly on something, the full time job thing, because.

I think that it's one of the topics that tends to be pretty popular with our listeners. And you know, we've got a lot of folks who are working while trying to get things started. Maybe you can tell us, how do you manage, you know, are you working 9 to 5? Are you just working on your business nights and weekends or lunchtimes? How do you kind of manage the whole thing?

Yeah, sure. So I work about 7:30 to 4:30. I have about an hour to an hour and a half commute each way. So on my commute to and from work, I'm basically on the phone talking to the contractors or talking with sellers. During lunchtime, I'm calling sellers back or talking to my contractors. And then at night, I'm doing more real estate stuff, creating systems and.

Working on my rehabs at night, just making sure everything's in place for this week.

And.

And what we have to get going on next week to keep our budget and our timeline in place.

And how do you verify. Is it just a trust factor? How do you know that the contractors aren't slacking off? You're at work, you don't show up on the job site at all during the week. They could be drinking beer and hanging out.

They could indeed. But I actually have partners on all of my rehabs right now that manage that project. Manage the rehabs. So they're checking in with the contractors on a daily basis. And that's really key for me because the partners that I deal with, they have more time on their hands than I do. So it fits very well in my model.

Let's actually dig in there because I think that's interesting. Are you talking partners as in, you know, you actually got a partnership on the whole flip, or you're, you know, what are these project managers? Partners? What are they. What are they doing exactly?

Yeah. So I have two partners that we created our own LLC with.

So some deals I do with one person, other deals I do with another person. And it's based on the geographic location of the properties. So these people are responsible. My other partners are responsible for project management, making sure the timeline and making sure the contractors are keeping. Keeping on schedule. So they're really in the details of the rehabs.

Okay, and are you, like, are these 5050 partnerships you're splitting down the middle at the end, or do you have other kind of arrangements worked out?

Yeah, they are. They are. 50. 50.

Yep.

Okay. All right. I'm a huge fan of, you know, 5050 partnerships, especially with flipping. I think it's a. It's a. It's a cool idea. Somebody talked about one of our other shows, maybe Josh, remember which one? It was about how. How they. Yeah, they. They part. Oh, it was Mike Simmons, I think, and he was saying how he partners with the lenders in like a 50, 50 deal where they'll fund the entire deal, and then he'll actually be the one that manages it and splits that 50, 50 at the end. And I thought that was kind of a cool idea, kind of a different way of dealing with the money aspect.

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

So.

Well, yeah, I think, I think that's important because, I mean, really for me, I just don't have the time to go down to these rehabs. So I can't even imagine what my rehabs would turn out to be if I'm not going down there and I just give the contractors full spread of the house and nobody's checking them out.

That was what I was worried about.

So you've got these partners, these 50, 50 partners. Where'd you end up finding these guys?

Well, one of them's still my father. I'm still partnering with him on some deals. And the other partner was that real estate agent that I got that first deal off of.

Oh, nice. How does that work, partnering with a real estate agent? Especially when your wife's a real estate agent. Didn't you say that?

Ouch.

Well, I mean, like, is there some weird, like, competition there? Like who's gonna list the property? I mean, how do you define that?

All right, she has her license, but she doesn't really practice, so she, she's okay on that side. The real estate agent that I'm partnering with, he actually does a number of rehabs himself and he's been doing it for quite some time. So it was a, it was a good fit for us, him being a real estate agent, knowing the market really well and having the time to manage these contractors that we get involved with.

And besides the fact your wife is still your wife. So whatever the arrangement is, it's clearly working.

Exactly.

Nice. Nice.

All right, moving on, Moving on. All right.

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Let's get back to the kind of the current flipping stuff that you're doing.

Yeah, I mean, can we talk about what kind of properties you're flipping?

Yeah. So the three properties that I'm working on right now, one of them is a ranch style house. So most of my flips are all right at the median. The ARV is at the median sales price because that's where most of the buyers are actually buying in that town.

So my sale, my ARV is really ranging from anywhere from 550,000 down to about 300 and 320,000.

Okay, and what kind of condition are they? Are you when you're buying them, are they just cosmetic fixers? Are they a little more serious?

No, I wish they were. I hear everybody talking about cosmetic flips. Nice and easy, 20,000. But all of mine have been at least 80,000 plus. I mean, I've worked on houses that have just been completely damaged by a fire and I've worked on a number of hoarder houses that there's a ton of mold and you know, there's a lot of work that needs to go into that and reconfiguring floor plans. So yeah, my rehabs are pretty Pretty large.

Hey, do you have any pictures of these hoarder houses?

I do.

Can you, can you share some with us so we can put up on the, on the show notes?

Absolutely.

Yeah, I think people would enjoy seeing the chaos.

I wish I could have them, get them to be able to smell it.

I'd rather not.

So you're putting a lot more work into these properties.

Can we maybe walk through the numbers on one of your recent flips? Maybe. What are you buying them for? Putting into them, selling them. I know you talked in general, but I don't know if you have a specific deal maybe we could go over.

Okay, yeah, sure. So one of the rehabs that I'm just finishing up now, we purchased it at about 140,000. We're putting in 80,000 into it and we're selling it right around 340,000.

Much better numbers than that first deal.

Yeah, much better.

Wow, that's good. That's good.

And where'd you find that one?

So this was an off market listing that I found through another real estate agent that I've been dealing with.

Now did the agent then they just called you and said, hey, I know you're buying these kinds of properties and.

Here you go, here's a sweet deal that's going to make you 100 grand. Or I mean, what happened?

Yeah, I've dealt with this real estate agent before in the past and she knows what I'm looking for. And I basically told her, let me know if any properties on or off market I can act quickly. And we really did the deal. Just over a couple text messages. She asked me what I could pay for the property. I told her and she said, when can you close? And I told her 10 days. And she said, all right, well I'll send you the contract.

So if it was off market, doesn't like, why didn't the real estate agent have an obligation to list it at least? How does that work?

Because with the seller just wanted to sell it quickly.

Yeah, that makes sense, I guess. So going back, you said these things are massively big projects. I mean, I've never done. The biggest rehab I've ever done was 60,000 and that took me like nine months. But I did a lot of the work myself. So is it a bad idea for new investors to do something that big?

I wouldn't say it's a bad idea to do. To do depends on their experience.

If they have good contractors in place and really they can partner with experienced investors. That's another option to get involved in It. But I'm finding most of my great deals where the properties need a lot of work. So there are definitely deals out there that need less work, but the spread will be smaller. But when you get into these larger rehabs, your spread gets a little bit bigger.

Well, that's a nice spread on this deal that you're talking about. So, you know, if it means doing a bigger rehab project, more construction, whatever it is, then, you know, I think it's probably worth doing if you're going to walk away with the numbers that it looks like you're going to walk away with. Yeah, yeah, that's great. Well, so you had mentioned a house that had been through some fire damage. Maybe we could talk briefly about rehabbing a firehouse. Is there. Is there anything different about doing that than a typical house flip or rehab project now?

So. So just to back up this, this firehouse was my second rehab that I ever did, so. So it was ambitious. Yeah. Yeah. I would say my biggest concern was how do I get rid of this smell and make sure it doesn't come back? Everything else about the rehab is pretty much the same. You know, look for structural issues. If they are, fix them, and then continue with the rehab. But my main concern, like I said, was the smoke smell.

So how'd you get it out?

So we ripped everything out. Insulation went down, right down to the studs, so nothing could be caught inside the walls. Any smoke, anything like that? We sprayed everything. What we first did was we used an ozone generator and left that ozone generator in the house for about three to four days to get the smell out. So I don't know if you guys know what an ozone generator is. Yep, I don't. Okay. All right, so a nozone generator, it basically.

I guess it adheres another molecule to the smoke smell and actually binds with the smoke, so then it actually reduces or eliminates that smell.

This is the bigger Pocket science podcast brought to you by Justin Silverio.

Okay, so you got these ions, and it's grabbing all the smell out. But my question is, you've torn everything out, and you got the wood, the studs. Does the odor not stick to the framing of the house as well?

So if the wood was severely damaged by.

The fire, then we were ripping it out. So once we did that, though, once we used the ozone generator, that got rid of a lot of the smell. And then we would spray with a special primer to seal the rest of the smell into the wood, and we did the whole house with that.

What was that primer called? Do you remember?

You know, I don't know. I don't know what that was.

Maybe you could find it and we can put it up in the show notes. I know that the listeners would probably be curious to find out the exact material. Sure, yeah, that'd be great. That'd be great. All right, so then you just build it back up from, from the, from the studs and you got a new property, Right, Exactly.

And we sold this property in the middle of summer. So if any other time, if at any time the smoke was going to come out, it was then because it was really humid when we were trying to sell this and I couldn't smell anything, which I was really happy about.

Gotcha. So what kind of tips do you have for people who may want to rehab a fire damaged property?

Well, one I would say if, if you don't know about construction yourself, get someone in there to inspect. Because even though it doesn't look like a fire.

Spread in one particular area, fire gets everywhere in the house. So you want to make sure there's no structural issues. You might have to do a lot more rehab than you actually think. Because even though the smoke, you don't think the smoke got into another part of the house, most likely it did. So you'll have to rip out all the walls and insulation and basically start from scratch. Interesting.

That's good advice.

Let's move on to kind of the ending stuff there. I'm wondering, how are you unloading these properties? Meaning are you staging, are you selling them yourself? Is your partner selling them? How's the exit strategy looking?

It's actually a pretty big mix. I have large signs at all my properties saying that we buy houses with a phone number. And believe it or not, I got a couple buyers from the signs that I keep outside the front of the house that say we buy houses. And so that enables me not even to have to list it on the MLS and just do a private sale on the back end. So that's definitely cut down on some costs for me with my other partner, who's a real estate agent, he lists a lot of our properties and we also do stage those properties.

Okay, gotcha. Are you, are you selling these at market? Are you slightly discounting them at market to get them off your hands quickly? What are you doing price wise?

Well, right now our market is really tight on inventory, so we can be much more aggressive right now and with our sales price. For instance, I know that this one of our properties that we're going to be putting on the market. It's had about. It's got half of a month inventory in it and it's a very desirable area. So I know I can be pretty aggressive on the sales price on that.

Gotcha. That's great.

That's cool.

Cool, man. Well, fascinating stuff. It sounds like you've got a nice little business going. Congrats on how well everything's going so far. And you know, we definitely want to hear more about what you've got going on and I know you'll be doing that on the, on the forums and jumping in and sharing more of your wisdom. But before we jump on to the last kind of parts of the show here, just wanted to briefly talk to you. You run a meetup that you kind of organize through BiggerPockets for local real estate investors. So I'd be kind of curious, what does that look like? Why maybe should people go to events like these and how can others do something similar?

Yeah. So I started the BiggerPockets networking events about September 2013 and I really wanted to get people together that were part of the BiggerPockets community that I've talked to but just haven't seen face to face and to really build our network. There's a lot of other networking events in my area, but I wanted to work on more of a feel of collaboration and, and true networking without any sales pitches or speakers. So it was really about the real estate investors themselves.

Yeah, that's great. And there's dozens of these around the country now, which is the coolest thing. And for anyone who's listening, you could find them@biggerpockets.com well, actually I don't know the exact URL. Nevermind. But if you go on the show notes@biggerpockets.com show58 we'll have a link to our events and Happenings forum. So these things are organic, right? It's somebody says, hey, I want to put together an event where I'm not going to get pitched and sold stuff. And you know what, what kind of happens at the end? Is it just kind of hanging out, sharing deals, sharing advice?

Yeah. What's. What's been very successful in our networking events is I have a Q and A segment. So anybody that has any questions about real estate investing or any issues they've come up in their business or, or how to get reached the next level of their investing business, they can ask these questions and the group as a whole can collaborate and answer the questions from their own experiences.

That's awesome. So it really is kind of a Next. What's the word I'm trying to think of? It's a collaborative. It's like a live version of the BiggerPockets forums.

Exactly.

That's great.

Is there any kind of deal making at these? I mean, hopefully people are getting together, linking up, you're finding partners, capital, things like that.

Yeah, there absolutely is. And I'm working with a couple people right now on potential deals in the future.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, that's great. And that's. Yeah, that's what this whole place is about. That's what BiggerPockets is for. And I love that folks like you are stepping it up and, you know, converting it from this digital, you know, networking to real world stuff because, you know, you can really elevate your business by doing that. So other people who may be sick of the kind of upselly, you know, get togethers in their area or who may just not have any kind of networking events nearby, how can they organize similar type gatherings?

Just reach out to other real estate investors and see if people have an interest in getting together. I mean, even though there's plenty of other networking events in my area, I just wanted to do something a little bit different, more organic in a smaller venue and people were really open to it.

That's cool. And you could use our places like BiggerPockets. I mean, you can go on meetup as well, but you can use BPS events and happenings area. Combine it with kind of our keyword alerts to keep people attuned to what's going on. Right?

Yeah, exactly.

That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, congrats, man. It's, it's. I'm glad to hear that that's going well for you, you know, as we're thinking about it, for the fire round.

All right, the fire round. Wow, that interrupted you, Josh. How do you feel about that?

That was kind of rude, man. He's an angry guy. Our fire round guy.

He's an angry guy. All right, the fire round. These are questions ripped from the headlines of the BiggerPockets forums. So question number one, we're gonna fire at you. I am a true beginner in real estate and I would like to know everything I can about my market area. I want to be an expert, but I'm not sure where to start.

Real estate agents. So network with some real estate agents who have an in depth knowledge of that market. That'll significantly cut down your time to do the research on your end.

They know what's selling, they know what home buyers are looking for. They have a good market sense. But also even more than that, you can go into look at demographics, job growth, business growth, stuff like that. Perfect.

Good, great answer. Good advice. All right, so I'm starting my first direct mail campaign tomorrow. Does anyone have any suggestions or tips for me?

Yes. Don't do it yourself. It'll take forever.

Now get a good list. The list is huge. So if you have a bad list, you're going to be spending and wasting a lot of money. If you have a good list, you'll get many more deals.

So yeah, I would say start with a good list.

Hey, Justin. So where can somebody who doesn't have a hookup like you do get access to a list that they can mail to?

Yeah, so the only list that I get off the MLS is the absentee owners. But I used list source a lot.

And my public records or public notice website, we have one in Massachusetts and basically I'm using a web scraping tool to gather the information off off the Internet. But I would say list source and the MLS are two big ones.

Right on, right on. All right, next question. I have $100,000 and I'm new to investing. What should I do.

After?

Don't give it to Josh.

Before you invest that 100k.

Research the market, understand the market, what's selling, where you want to buy these properties. Talk to real estate agents before you ever invest. You can't have too much information, but yet you don't want to spend all this time gathering the information you need to find a happy medium.

So I would say with 100k in my area, that's not going to buy you a full property. So you're going to be leveraging some of the bank money or hard money lender. But.

Yeah.

Okay.

I don't really know where to go.

No, that works. That's great. That's great. Okay, Justin, so what things keep you up at night or make you worry about your properties?

Making sure they are staying on budget and.

On time schedule.

That's great. That's great.

That's like the two toughest things to do for a house flipper.

I know.

That's what I struggle with every time.

Yeah, I'm very much a hands on person. So to rely on other people, it's difficult for me. But things have been going pretty smooth so far. So.

Cool.

I'm trying to let loose.

You know, I really like that question. Like I'm not gonna add it to the famous four, but it would be kind of cool. Just, I love that question. Is what keeps you up at night. So anyway, you should add it to.

The Famous Four, by the way.

Then it would be the Famous Five and that wouldn't make any sense. Josh Dworkin, come on.

That wouldn't make any sense if there were five questions and we called it the Famous Four. You're right.

Correct. And then this jingle right here wouldn't make any sense.

Famous Four.

See?

All right. Welcome to the Famous Four. This is the Famous Four brought to you by.

You heard that silence? You heard that silence? Yeah. That is brought to you by. By me, apparently. I am funding this. Yes, yes, yes. All right, guys, Famous for. We are going to start with your favorite real estate book.

I would have to say part of the Rich dad series is ABCs of Real Estate Investing.

Nice. With Ken McElroy.

You got it.

Yeah, he was on our show a few weeks ago. What episode? That was episode 52, I think he was.

And I'm glad I didn't follow him.

That was a really good show. So.

It was.

Yeah, it was. It was.

Well, what about your favorite business book? Non. Real Estate.

I believe it's the same one as Josh's. The Four Hour Workweek.

That is my favorite. That's my favorite. Man, I love that book so much.

I'm sure you do. What page, Josh, tell everyone.

The book's already off my dresser. I don't even know what page I'm on. I don't think I'll buy you the audiobook.

Oh, that's a good idea. Josh can do it while he's never.

I'm not in my car, so I'm never going to. I'm never going to listen.

Yeah, it's a sad thing. That's all right. That's right. Josh can keep, you know, working his 80 hours a week and.

Yeah.

Enjoy it.

Aging, aging, aging. Yeah, yeah. There you go. All right.

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's all right. That's right. What about hobbies? What kind of hobby? What do you do for fun?

Nothing. Right now I have two small kids and with working a full time job, investing part time, and two little ones, that pretty much takes up all my time.

There you go. Fabulous. Cool.

Cool. Very cool. All right, final question from me. What do you believe sets apart successful investors from those who give up or just fail?

I would say motivation and drive. You know, you can't. If you don't have the motivation to take this and real estate investing and run with it, I mean, you may as well just stop now. You just have to have the drive to do what you need to do to get it done. And you never know when the deal is actually going to happen. It could be the next day. You quit?

Yeah. Straight from the source, man. Just like Yoda. There is no, dude, there is no try.

Wow.

I don't know. I don't know the quote.

Good try.

Yeah, that was awesome.

Do or do not.

Yeah, whatever. You know what? Don't show off. That's the one. Yeah. All right, Justin.

All right.

With that note, we're out of here. We're loopy, we're tired. But listen, man, it's been a pleasure, it's been great, great talking to you. A very good conversation. Where can people find out more information about you?

Yeah, sure. So there's a couple spots, bigger pockets. I'm always active on that there. So they can check me out@biggerpockets.com. the other one, they can check me out at my blog, the BostonInvestor.com or my main page, JS2Homes.com.

Great.

And we'll link to all that in the show notes. So we will.

We will.

Cool.

Listen, sir, it's been a pleasure, you know, for those listening. This show has been interrupted about 600 times, so a highly edited version of, of the podcast, I'll be editing for.

The next like 48 hours. It'll be fun.

Thank you. Thank you Skype for your kick ass flow, your streaming abilities.

Brandon, feel free to give me a deeper voice too.

I will.

Hey, listen, man, thanks so much and we'll see you around the site.

All right, thanks, guys.

Yeah, thank you, Justin.

All right, everybody, that was Justin Silverio. Really, really cool guy with lots of fantastic, fantastic feedback. Hopefully you guys enjoyed the show as much as Brandon did.

It really makes me want to do like one of those 80 or $100,000 flips, you know, like high end, lots of money. Complete gut job. That would be fun.

Yeah. Maybe you can accidentally buy one of those.

Maybe I will accidentally buy one of those. I, I'm tired of flipping though, man. I, I, it's so much easier just to like buy a rental property. That cash flows from day one, you know?

It's easier indeed.

I'm lazy.

I can attest to Brandon's laziness.

Yep. All day, sit around watching my soaps, my stories, you know, My stories. That's what I do.

Awesome, man. Well, yeah, no, listen, again, it was a really good show. Lots of cool stuff. All right, guys, so as we always, you know, actually I'm going to tell you something. First of all, I definitely Want to remind you guys to check out the free ebook. We're going to have a link to it. It's a diary of a new construction project. You can get this thing for free by going to the show notes@biggerpockets.com show58. But I got an email this week from somebody, and what he said to me was this. He's like, josh, I want to tell you, you've been nudging and nudging and nudging us to get active and get up to date on the forums, get involved. And I keep listening, keep listening. And I finally took the plunge, and I'm so happy I did. And so for those of you guys who aren't active on the biggerpocket site, I really do encourage you to. I mean, I'm not just saying this to fill space here. I'm saying it because it's important. If you just create a profile or you're not even active at all on our site, you're really missing out on the opportunities, especially early on. The networking may not help you as much, but as you become more sophisticated, and I know, Brandon, you can attest to this. I mean, the more people you're networking with, the more people know what you're up to, the greater the opportunities for you to find partners, to find funding, things like that.

Word. Do people say that anymore? Word?

No word.

Well, you're in, like, Podunk, so you're like five, ten years behind.

Anyway, you're done talking. So.

All right, guys, Otherwise, definitely make sure to follow us on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, G, and everywhere else. And you know what? If you're not doing this, I'm going to put a call to action to you guys to get out there and tell at least one person about either BiggerPockets or about the podcast, because I'm sure if you're one of our listeners, you already know about the value that the show and our site has for everybody. And ultimately, we want to help people, and surely you do as well. So spread the word and help us grow the site, help us grow the community, grow your network, and, you know, help other people become financially successful through real estate by getting involved here. So that's all I got for you from Josh and the man in plaid. This is me signing off.

You're listening to Bigger Pockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you're here looking to learn about real estate investing without Omaha hype, you're in the right place. Be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com your home for real estate investing Online.

We're gonna slap all this out because sound like a bunch of 2400 on.

3000 but I'm an accountant too so.

Outtake.

Thank you all for listening to the Biggerpockets Real Estate Podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian K. Copywriting is by Calico, content and editing is by Exodus Media. If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.biggerpockets.com. the content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk, so use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose. And remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. Biggerpockets LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential or other damages arising from a reliance on information presented in this podcast.