Jocko Podcast Civil War Excursion With JD Baker Pt.4: Good Leadership Wins...

This is the Jocko podcast, Civil war excursion number four with J.D. baker and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, J.D.

Good evening, Jocko.

We slept upon our arms last night and daylight this morning found us in line. The battle began at an early hour and the shot and shell screeched and screamed over our heads. To our right we could see the fight going on for the heights beyond the back of Fredericksburg. General Sumner tried to take the hills, but failed. The city was on fire in several places and the noise was deafening. We could see the long lines of Union troops move up the hill and melt away before the rebel fire.

But we were not idle, although at times there would be a lull in our front and we would watch and we could watch the fight on the right. At 3pm our regiment was sent down to the left of the line in order to support a battery. This was no fun for us, for we had to stand. The rebel shells fired at the battery. Just at dark the firing ceased.

But what a scene was before us. The dead and wounded covered the ground in all directions. Ambulances were sent out to pick up the wounded, but the enemy opened fire upon them and wounded were left to suffer.

During the evening, if a match was lighted, it would bring a shell from the rebel forts on the hills.

At 8pm we were ordered to the rear and our division rested for the night.

That right there is an excerpt from Elijah Hunt Rhodes book, his book all for the Union. And it's. It's his account as they began the battle of Fredericksburg.

And at this point, since our last podcast, which focused on the battle at Antietam.

There has been some pretty significant. Pretty significant changes in what was going on. Lincoln was not happy with his leadership in the Union Army. So he. He's going to make some changes. That's what's good. That's what's going to go down. So we. Before we get to Fredericksburg and what happened there, let's talk about some of these changes. So here's an. Here's an order coming down. This is from Lincoln from the Executive Mansion, Washington, November 5, 1862. By. By direction of the President, it is ordered that Major General McClellan be relieved from the command of the army of the Potomac. And that Major General Burnside take command of that army. Also that Major General Hunter take command of the corps in said army, which is now commanded by General Burnside. That Major General Fitz John Porter be relieved from the command of the corps he now commands in said army, and that Major General Hooker take command of said corps. The general in chief is authorized in his discretion to issue an order substantially as the above forthwith or so soon as he may deem proper, signed a. Lincoln.

So there's, I mean, that's a, that's a. There's a lot of changes going on from one paragraph worth of orders. What's going on behind the scenes?

Yeah, so, you know, basically, Lincoln, he's, he's, he's, he's fed, he's had enough. He's. His fun meter is pegged with General McClellan. So, you know, he's out coming in November out of, you know, September. If a lot of the folks remember with the Battle of Antietam, that, that one, uh, single day, u bloodiest day in American history coming out of there. I mean, if you could imagine, you know, you're like, man, wow. All the way till, till November. You know, Robert E. Lee gets pushed back into Virginia after the Battle of Antietam. I mean, these, both of these armies are a wreck. I mean, they're just wrecked with that, that one single day. So there's a lot of regrouping. And then, you know, Abraham Lincoln's got to make the decision. Okay, well, first, if we're gonna get rid of McClellan, who are we gonna pick to be the new Army Commander of the Potomac? So, of course, that, that's gonna go in discussion, you know, and he's got his cabinet, he's got a lot of the folks that are up there that he's in discussion with from, you know, Seward, Secretary of State. You got Halleck, you got all these guys that are in there, and they're basically gonna come to Burnside. We already know about him at Burnside Bridge as a commander and how it played out for him and Antietam. And then you're going to look at the aspects of he's a West Point grad, you know what I mean? Him and Lincoln, they've got a really good relationship. So he's going to call Burnside in, you know, before he's even does this order. And he's like, hey, General Burnside, I'm thinking about putting you as the new Army Commander of the Potomac. And you know, basically Burnside's kind of like, well, hey, D, that's a little bit out of my wheelhouse, man. You know what I mean? Like, I like being a general. Like, you know, I'm having a, you know, a pretty good time. I didn't have a good go at Antietam. I don't know if you read the after action Report. Of this whole Burnside Bridge that's now named after me, which I'm not really happy about. It's not a good, good reason to have something named after you. And I don't really think that. I mean, which is pretty cool on Burnside to kind of know what his limitations are. And he doesn't believe that he would be a good army commander of the Potomac. And Lincoln's basically, like, looking at him like, well, okay, well, then if not you, then I'm going to put General Hooker in there. And Burnside's like, whoa, hey, slow your roll, brother. Like, I do not want to work for Hooker. And you know, and you read it in there with the coming from the executive order from Abraham Lincoln of, you know, he's going to get Porter, he's going to relieve him, and he's going to put Hooker and put him in with a corps commander. I mean, he's going to elevate Hooker even in this. Hooker does a pretty good job at Antietam. You know, his nickname of what folks look at is Fighting Joe. You know, Fighting Joe.

Hooker.

Hooker is an interesting character. Needless to say, he's a little bit different than some of the other generals.

Let's just leave it at that. He does a pretty good job at Antietam. He gets wounded at Antietam.

Hold on, you're gonna leave it at that?

You want me to leave it at that?

Let's go.

Okay, so, you know, if I say the word hooker, like, what's the first thing that pops into your mind?

Well, from the slang nomenclature of planet Earth, a hooker in America is a prostitute.

Okay? So when we used to call them prostitutes, if you could imagine, you know, hooker is a general officer. He used to have, like, this little entourage of women. They were kind of like groupies, you know what I mean? So if you got like the big hair bands back in the 80s and stuff, and they got the. These, like, groupies that, like, go around. I mean, they make movies about groupies. And so he's got some groupies. Well, you know, the typical private, you know what I mean? In battle, I mean, you don't see a lot of women. You know what I mean? So here you got like, J.D. private Baker. I'm sitting out there and I see these women going by, and I'm like, hey, man, who are those women? And one of the other guys is like, dude, those are hookers.

Meaning those are hookers little entourage. Well, it sticks. The term hooker.

Comes into play, which is probably, if you're looking at an individual of character. That's probably not what you want to be known for, you know what I mean? Because the privates are like, hey, can we get some hookers? You know what I mean? Can we have some bakers out here too? And no, you know what I mean? Private doesn't get that. So, you know, and that's seen as a leader. You're always under observation. So the privates are always constantly. I mean, you know as well as anybody, man, if you're in charge, everything that you do 24 7, 365 day, you're under observation. People are watching you because they're looking for anything, you know what I mean? If you show a flaw that they can exploit, because one day I'm going to be in Subic Bay in the Philippines, you know what I mean, running through a long depot, and you're going to bring me in for, you know, for captain's mass, and I'm going to be like, wait a minute there, sir, I believe I saw you just last week doing the same thing. And I've got witnesses, you know what I mean? So you mean you're always under observation and you know, do you not think that the, the privates want to have a little bit. I mean, some of these guys, man, like the general officers, they're going to swoop out, man, they got their wives coming up. They get to see, you know, it's that, that is, that opportunity is not afforded to the common soldier. Well, if, if you're that like so far removed from what's going on at the lower levels in the command that those, those guys aren't like a little chapped, like, you know what I mean? Like, hey, I'd like to see my wife too. Or I'd like to like go into the fill, you know, can we get it like a liberty pass? Can I go home on Libo? You know what I mean? You're denied. And then you see the, the command and staff going on, you know, they're going on their little entourage, and you don't get to do that. Well, that's kind of undermining inside the command. So, you know, Hooker, he gets elevated up, he does become a core commander, he gets moved in. But it also says a little bit about Burnside. Like, Burnside doesn't want to be the army commander, but he also doesn't want to work for Hooker, you know what I mean? So he's basically just going to take the job because he doesn't want to work for Hooker, which is probably not the guy that you want running the army especially.

It's not like they're going to move the whole army of the Potomac and they're going to go fight in the Western Theater. Now you're still going up against the army of Northern Virginia, like nothing has changed. You're still with the army of the Potomac, Potomac comic. You're still based right next to Washington D.C. you are right on the flagpole, you know what I mean? You've got all these political leaders that are all there in D.C. and you are under observation of a keen eye all the time. And now you're going to go up against Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson and James Longstreet. And, you know, and you might want to, like, I don't know, like, if it was me, I'd be like, hey, sir, can I go up against, like, Bragg? Can you send me out west and let me go up against some of those guys out there? You know, it's kind of like when you look at, like, sports, I mean, if you play in the American League east, you know what I mean, in Major League Baseball, you know what I mean, you got the Yankees, you got the Red Sox, you got the Orioles, I mean, you got Toronto. I mean, these guys are all competing at a high level. They're like, can we play more games out in, like, the American League Central? I mean, nothing against the American League Central, but you know what I mean? Like, it's kind of like being here. San Diego, you got la. You got San Francisco, you know what I mean? Like, the west out here in baseball, they're kind of like, dude, can't we play, like, more games like against the brewers and the Cubs? I mean, can you get more of those games in so we can win more? You know, so he's going to go up against the. The, you know, I mean, at this point in time, you know, even after the battle, Antietam, and it's a draw, you know, Robert E. Lee and the army of Northern Virginia, I mean, they are still the. The premier army of the Confederacy. They're the ones that are going to push that envelope to get them to be left alone, you know what I mean, and become a Confederate States.

And with that, with Burnside getting moved and elevated in position, Lincoln wants action. Lincoln wants offense, which is, you know, whenever I think of Lincoln, you know, you think of this kind of thoughtful, cerebral leader, which he certainly is. But normally that doesn't go hand in hand with, like, I want you to go kick people's asses, right? Which is what Lincoln wants. Lincoln wants you to go kick ass. That's what he wants Burnside to do.

Yeah, I mean, he doesn't. I mean, he doesn't just want them to win the battle. He wants them to destroy the army of Northern Virginia. I mean, you can't get any more clearer of what Lincoln wants. He doesn't want them to just like, you know, just win the battle. Hey, like, push him off the field. Like, we kind of talked about Antietam. Oh, he, you know, like, McClellan looks at it like, well, hey, I got him out of Maryland, boss. What you pissed off about? You didn't destroy them. They are still active, they're still recruiting, and they're still a threat. I want that threat eliminated. Like, take that off the plate. Then we can just focus on the West. We get rid of that, we threaten down. Make them displace out of Richmond. Make them move the Capitol back to Montgomery, Alabama. Don't make them move us, like, back to Philly. Like, what are you not getting? So, yeah, Lincoln wants somebody to start taking action, and he's going to have, you know, General Burnside is now, hey, man, you've got the cog. And like you said, I mean, this is. This is in November now. I mean, I know, like Virginia, you know what I mean, is considered the south, but in November, like I live in Virginia, December and stuff like that, like, it's freaking cold. You know what I mean? Like, it's. It's in the 20s and 30s, you know what I mean? I mean, it's not like, you know, like, you know, like Wisconsin or, you know, living in Buffalo, New York, but, you know, 30 degrees. I don't care where the hell you're at, man, it's cold. So now you're going to go into a winter kind of campaign to where like a lot of times the armies are like, you know, even if you date all the way back, even like Washington, like, as soon as like first snowflake up going into winter quarters.

Now, Burnside's kind of initial proposal is kind of doing a big flanking movement to get down to Richmond and is that right?

Yeah, he's going to want it, like, instead of like, you know, hey, diddle diddle, VR direct right down the Telegraph.

Road, you know, so explain the telegraph. The Telegraph road is a road that goes from D.C. to Richmond. Basically, yeah. Which is. How long is it?

I would. From D.C. to Richmond, I would probably put it right around between 90 and 100 miles.

So this is striking distance, really, for both armies. I mean, you can move 100 miles. It's going to take a few days, but a few days you can get there. And there's this Telegraph Road. How's that set up? Why is that set up?

Well, they call it the Telegraph Road. So it's modern day what we would call Route 1. You know, I mean, before I95, if anybody's ever been out in that corridor, it's going to, you know, take you straight through, you know, Fredericksburg. You're going to come right. Stafford County, Spotsylvania county, into Caroline county, bam, you're going to hit into Henrico. Boom, you are in Richmond. I mean, it is. It's like you said. And they call it the Telegraph Road because they run the Telegraph down that road. It's like, you know what I mean? Like the power line. So it's called the Telegraph Road.

So Burnside's initial stab at a plan is like, okay, well, I'm going to do a little, a bigger, broader flanking movement. I'm not going to go direct because I want to, you know, take, take a little bit of advantage of some of the terrain over here to the west, go a different, a little bit of a different direction. That's his initial cut on the plan, his initial proposal.

Right. You know, so there's, there's different ways to get to Virginia. And if you live in Virginia, like, nobody wants to get on i95 because it's just a parking lot. You know what I mean? And, you know, Even with the HOVs and all that kind of stuff, I mean, just 95 is like anybody that's ever been in the national Capital region, they just hate i95. So, like, local folks from around there, like, I don't have to get on i95 to get to Richmond. You can go, because these roads, like where we're talking about, like, of in and around Fredericksburg is if you go out what's called the Modern Day Route 3, which is, well, you're going to pick up 20 and you can go to Charlottesville. Well, that's called the Constitution Route, meaning that that road and those been established before the Constitution was even written for this country. So you can go out and around through Culpepper and you can come in kind of like from the west and then go south, southeast and come into Richmond that way. So that's where Burnside, his initial thoughts is, I'm going to come out and sweep out and around, you know what I mean? McClellan tried to come down through the peninsula. You know, McDowell tried to push down, you know what I mean, down the Modern Day Route 1. So, you know, if you're looking at it also of logistically of moving now the. Like I said, Fredericksburg of where we're about ready to end up with, you know, Elijah Hunt Rhodes kind of told us a little bit about that. If you go to the Modern Day Route 1 of the Telegraph Road and you enter into. Of what's called Falmouth in southern Stafford area, and you're crossing over the Rappahannock River. So there's a bridge that's there, and it's on the Telegraph Road to get over the Rappahannock River. Right where the Telegraph Road is, that's the fall line, meaning everything to the east of the Telegraph road is tidal. Everything to the west of Telegraph Road is rapid, meaning it's not navigable. So that's why Fredericksburg is so important, because you can bring your goods in if you're a farmer.

So there's a waterway, a navigable waterway that goes all the way up to Fredericksburg.

Yep.

Beyond Fredericksburg, you don't have the waterway anymore, or it's problematic.

Right. You're not going to run a boat up it. You know what I mean? Like the Rappahannock river, you know, it's you right there in what's, you know, Ferry Farm, if you're looking at. That's where George Washington was born and raised, you know, I mean, it's right there, right across from Fredericksburg, and there's a canal that's up there. They, you know, they can dam it. They can run a canal in and around Fredericksburg. And it's all about, like, moving resources. Just like we kind of talked about the towpath up on the Potomac, you know, these. These areas. So if you go out and around, you know, you're not necessarily dealing with the title, the river, you know what I mean? It's at its widest point there. It's deep. You're not. It's going to make logistical to get across. Because the Confederates knew that this was a natural obstacle. If you blow all the bridges. So there is no Route 1 bridge. There used to be one. They got rid of it, the rail line. They blew the rail bridge coming in right there into Fredericksburg. So it's almost as if, if you're going to go straight down the Telegraph Road, you're The one natural barrier is going to be the Rappahannock river now.

Because we know that this. This big barrier is there. And Burnside figures, hey, I can swoop out around to the west and come in from a different approach and avoid that major obstacle. Seems like a good idea, but Lincoln don't like it because. Because now we've got. Now. Now if you're. If you're taking your big giant army and you're swooping out to the west, well, that means that General Lee sitting there looking 90 miles north and he sees D.C. and maybe he can just roll up there while you're moving out to the west. He can roll straight up, no resistance.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's all about the protection of D.C. i mean, of course, Abraham Lincoln's worried about that. So, yeah, if he does go. But you know, if you look at it, you know, logistically for Burnside, because now he's going to have to do bridging. Like, you're going to have to bring in bridging the engineers. I mean, it's just a lot more of a to do than if you go out towards Culpepper, like out towards Orange county and Spotsylvania County. That area you've got like Ely's Ford. You've got. You know what I mean?

I'm just sitting here thinking about the great lengths that soldiers will go to to avoid the water. I mean, like, there's a reason the SEAL teams is. Is good at what we're do and why there's so few people in the SEAL teams. It's like, oh, because you got to deal with the worst possible obstacle in the world and that's water. You know, whether it's a river and you think seals like doing river and stream crossings. It's like we'll look at map. We'll study maps for five hours trying to figure out a way to get around doing a river and stream crossing. We'll do anything we can to get over the beach without getting in the water. The water is a nightmare. It's a nightmare. And so I can see why he's thinking, hey, we don't really want to get into this. And because it's the obstacle of water, like you just said, you gotta. You gotta bring in a whole new range of systems to solve that problem. And it's not easy.

Yeah. I mean, you're gonna. It's like modern day today. You're just gonna be like, you're gonna need an engineer battalion.

Yeah.

I mean, they're going to have to come up and bridge and then you. And then, you know, you look at the size of the numbers of the army. Okay. So you got. Then you got to get like 90,000 people and all their stuff across this and it's, it's coming into, you know, by the time they get down there, like Elijah Hunt Rhodes is talking about, it's coming in end of November into December. Freaking water's cold.

Yeah. So that's what Link. So just to, just to make this clear, the decision is made. No, you're not going to hook around to the west. You're going to go straight down Telegraph Road. You're going to go straight down Telegraph Road. Your goal is to get to Richmond. But there's the first big obstacle you're going to hit is going to be sitting on the, sitting on the Rappahannock river with Fredericksburg.

So, you know, let's get there. So Burnside, he starts marching south, starts marching south down, down Telegraph Road. Which Telegraph Road, modern day is called. What, what's it called now?

Now? Well, just recently it's the Emancipation Parkway.

And in a little while ago, I mean like a couple years ago.

Oh, this is like. Yeah, like because it, because it was.

Up to that time called Jefferson Davis Highway.

Yep.

Like a few years ago. So now it's called a Emancipation Parkway, but back in the day called it Telegraph Road.

He's got. Burnside has 124,000 troops on the march. 124,000 troops. I got to run the math sometime and just see how much, how much physical space that takes. Like how many miles is 124,000 people? 4. Breast walking, that's, that's a massive group of people. How many people run the, run the New York City Marathon or the Boston Marathon? You know, these marathons that you run, how many people run one of those?

Let's just recently the Marine Corps, my son in law, Zach, just got done running the Marine Corps Marathon. There's you know, 25,000 people.

25. And you, we know what that crowd looks like and that.

Okay, so that's a core, right? Let's just say that's a core.

So you're going 5x that.

Yeah.

And you're there.

Freaking got gear, they got horses, they got weapons. Like this is a pack of people. There's a massive number of people.

And I mean, and if you look at like a road back then is not like, like a road that we see today. You know what I mean? Like one, it's dirt, you know what I mean? And then, you know, it's Virginia. So I'm like right now, you know, we're in SoCal. Like, you know, if it rains, everybody gets excited. In Virginia, we don't get excited, man, because it rains a lot, you know what I mean? Like, everything's green. I mean, when it rain, I literally, I cut my grass literally right before I came out here. I mean, it's in November and I'm still cutting grass, so I'm ready for the rain to stop. So. And what does rain on a mud road? Now, you know, you'll hear terms as well. Like people will call it like, oh, it's the Plank Road. Well, that means that they like had planks of wood on the road, but if they planked it normally, they told it, you know, I mean, so give me a little bit of money, you know what I mean? You want to run it on the plank road? It's like the HOV lane, you know what I mean? Well, if JD's just the dirt poor farmer man, and I don't, you know, want to spend the $9.62 to go four miles on the Plank Road, I'm going to go out and around so I can save that money. But the roads aren't going to be as good and as stable. You know, the Modern day Route 1 is the best. It is the best road. Until I95 came in. You know, Telegraph Road was the best means of transportation. And the rail runs, I mean, it's still the same rail. Like when I go to New York City, I go to Fredericksburg to the same exact train, to the same exact train track that was there in 1862. It's been running from D.C. to Philly to Baltimore to New York, all the way up, man. It's the same system's been there for a really long time.

And you know, when you, when you look at the aspects of, of Burnside's got to move them down. And what's the importance if he does gain and get Fredericksburg? Well, then because of now he can move his logistical base because with that water that is now its title, he can then start having, you know, his resupplies coming from the north, can now go all the way down, come up the Rappahannock river and dump off all of his logistical needs right there in Fredericksburg. And because that's the, that's like the biggest obstacle between D.C. and Richmond is the Rappahannock River. I mean, there's a couple other rivers. I mean, just, you know, there's the Po river, the Nye river, the Mata river, we call it the Mattaponi in Spotsylvania County. That's just in the county. But they're not like the Rappahannock River. They're. They're more like the Antietam Creek, kind of of a river, even though they still call them rivers. So. And he's got 124,000 people. And to help imagine that, it's kind of like watching the Macy's Day Parade. Like, everybody just watched it over Thanksgiving. They just don't have, like, floats and stuff, you know what I mean? But it's like that many people coming down that narrow of a road in New York, and there's just thousands of them coming with their horses and all their stuff. And then you got contractors, you know what I mean? Like, because nothing's changed. We got contractors today that. You know what I mean? Like, this morning when I went for the run, there's buildings that are out there that are specifically set aside just for contractors to support the military. So they got all their stuff. And then there's people that live there, you know what I mean, that are trying to get in and around the area. And now you've got these two huge arm. I couldn't imagine living in Fredericksburg. And it's like, hey, man, there's 124,000 people about ready to come to your town, you know, and. And, you know, there's a couple of bake shops, and you're worried about, like, what are they going to do with all my storage of stuff that I've canned and stored for the winter? Because these people are going to be hungry. Where are they going to get their means and their rations from? So, you know, so here you got the Macy's Day Parade coming down the Telegraph Road. And, you know, at this point, they're going to start running their logistical bases. There's a little place right in Stafford county called Aqua harbor where they're going to use that to be able to run logistics. The other thing that's of key to note for people to understand is up north, when you talk about rail lines and you talk about, like, the gauging of the tracks, like in the north, all the gauging is the same. The con in the. In the Southern states, if you owned a piece of your rail line, and let's say my gauge is. I'm going to run my gauge at 5 inches, and then you own the next set of tracks, and you're going to run your gauge at six inches. Well, that means that when I get all of my supplies to your line now, we have to offload everything off of the trains and get them over and move them over to yours instead of just running the same one track. Now in America, they're all gauge the same for that specific reason, you know what I mean? But so that's going to be a problem moving logistically by rail for the Confederacy because they're going to have to deal with this of offloading and onload. I mean, I couldn't imagine being on those working parties. Like it's like, you got to be me, man. You know what I mean? Like, we just loaded this thing, we went like 10 miles and there's another gauge and now we got to offload. I mean, I could just imagine the morale of that working party.

So yeah, if, if, if, if he can get Fredericksburg and move his logistical base, I mean it, that's going to set him up.

How far is Fredericksburg from Richmond?

From Richmond, it's, It's literally, I mean 55, 60 miles.

So you get almost half the distance or just about half the distance that it is from D.C. it's two day hike. That's that logistics training is going to make all the difference in the world.

Huge.

Lee. So Lee, Lee sees this happening, right? And he knows that the first, best natural terrain to try and stop this 124,000 people heading his way is to get there to Fredericksburg. So, so that's what he does. Gets, gets his Army. He's got 86,000, I think is the number, 86,000 troops. And when he gets to Fredericksburg. So Fredericksburg, like you got the river and Fredericksburg is on the, I guess the southwest side of the river and. Right?

Yep, yep.

I mean, and then it's, and it's on the river, right? On the river.

On the river.

There's no space after the river, it's the river. And then on the banks of the river on the southwest side is the town. And then there's sort of a flat area where the town is located. And then you had a little bit further southwest and it starts to creep up and you get, you get a little bit of altitude, you get a little bit of terrain, a little bit. Some hills which are called Mary's Heights. And Lee shows up and he is trying to make a really a tactical decision of what, how he should set up, where he should set up. Because you can, you can make a case for both places to set up. If you set up right there in the town, well then you got the Union coming across that river. They're going to have to build bridges, they're going to be channelized. You're going to be right there on them and you can, you can do some damage there or, or you can Take the high ground a little bit further back. They're gonna have maybe have a little bit easier time to get across the river. But, you know, you're gonna be at altitude, still have some good ways to cause problems for them. So that's Lee's decision to make. Do I. Do I actually defend the town itself right on the river, or do I back off and take the high ground, which is going to make it easier for the Union to get across the river, but you're going to have the high ground when they get across. That's the decision Lee comes up, has to make.

Yeah. And just like, when you look at, I mean, Fredericksburg, like I said, I mean, you know, George Washington, you know, grew up there. I mean, Fredericksburg. Robert E. Lee courted his wife in Fredericksburg. I mean, it's a. It's a prominent Virginia town, still is this day. I mean, when you look at Virginia, you got Fredericksburg, you got Williamsburg, Charlottesville. I mean, even still this day, I mean, today, up on Mary's Heights is the University of Mary Washington. I mean, you know, named, you know, Ferry Farm right there. It's a very historic town, and it has a lot of meaning. But like you said, I mean, that had to be a huge struggle for Robert E. Lee because, you know, and it's almost like the same thing when we talked about Antietam and Jackson wasn't with him, it's the same thing when he comes into Fredericksburg. So when he's coming into Fredericksburg, okay, he's got this army. He knows they're moving south, but he doesn't know, are they going to cross at Fredericksburg? Are they going to go up and use the US Ford, Elise Ford, are they going to try to swing out and around? Like, where are they going to go? And again, he. He can't collectively keep both corps there. So, you know, me. So he's got half. So, you know, I mean, when you're looking at the numbers that he has there, it's kind of. It's kind of ironic, isn't it, that he's hanging out with James Longstreet again and Jackson is off, you know what I mean, with his core independent actions. But he's close enough to be able to win. Robert E. Lee's like, hey, giddy up, Stonewall. I need you here. Like, they're ready to call an audible. They're gonna wait and see. What is the army of the Potomac going to do? Because as you talked about, those Mary's Heights, and it is a pretty prominent Terrain feature that comes in about. So you got Fredericksburg that's sitting flat, and then it drops off right there onto the river. And then in between the actual town of Gettysburg, there's a Fredericksburg. Yeah, Fredericksburg. There's a large open area. What is like back then it was the Fredericksburg fairgrounds.

So you got river, you got town, you got fairgrounds, which is like an open area where you'd have a fair.

Yeah.

And then it starts to go up into Mary's Heights. A little bit of altitude.

Yep. And that. That ridgeline runs all the way down. I mean, it's. It's a prominent. Like today if you go there, it's called Lee Drive.

So you get off the sunken road, you get onto Lee Drive, and it is a prominent. It's the first prominent ridgeline coming across north to south over the Rappahannock River. Now if you look over onto the Stafford side, the north side, there's a manor that's there. It's called Chatham Manor. And it is still to this day. Man, it is a beautiful, beautiful house. Well, where does Burnside decide to set up his headquarters? I mean, there's kind of a trend here with these Union generals, man, you know what I mean? Like the Pry House, Chadam Manor. You know what I mean? So it is a. I might be.

Turning red right now from me setting up in one of Saddam's old, like, stately homes on the Fredes river in. In Ramadi. You know, I had like the. The big pillars out front. Yeah, that was me. So maybe I got a little Burnside in me.

Well, I mean, if you're going to be in town for a while.

Go big or go home. And so he goes big. And the Freddy Spurg, Spotsylvania Battlefield Park. They now own Chatham Manor. So you can go there, take tour. It's a beautiful, beautiful house, and it is a commanding. You know, unlike the Pry House like we talked about. Like, you know, remember, McClellan can only see like one third of the battle. Well, dude, if you're at Chatham Manor, dude, you can see everything. I mean, is a commanding.

Are you in range of. Of Confederate cannons?

Oh, yeah, both of are in range. And that. That's got to be a decision. So just like you said, like, if you were Bobby and you're gonna go down and like, let's. Hey, let's decide like, hey, we love Fredericksburg. We love the citizens. Let's defend town of Gettysburg. So we go right to the edge of the river and you've got artillery up on Stafford Heights, where Chatham Manor is, it is a prominent terrain feature. You are going to get pounded by artillery and small arms fire. Like that is just not a good place to be. So Robert E. Lee's got to give up the town of Gettysburg. Here we go, Fredericksburg. It's like, where are you at, J.D. you know, I mean, so he's going to give up the town of Fredericksburg and he's going to, he's going to. He's got Long street so right behind where the fairground is, you know, because just like folks, they're going to bring their stuff to market or whatever, they're going to put them in the fair, they got holding pens just like they do in every county across America today, that fairground. And then there's a sunken road that's there with this stone wall that's there. And then you've got the heights of Mary's Heights right behind this. So it is a great piece of ground, very defendable. And so that's where Longstreet's going to be with his corps.

Now, we mentioned the water obstacle and what a challenge that is. And how are you going to get across this water obstacle or the way you're going to across this water obstacle is you're going to use these pontoon bridges. That's the plan, right?

Yep.

How long does it take to get these pontoon bridges organized and sent down and all this. What's going on with that?

It's going to take a lot longer than what you would think when you look at it of like, you know, your. Prior to your prioritization of like, okay, what's the, what's the most important thing we need here? And you know, you got your staff there. The other thing that we should talk about just real quick is Burnside's going to come up with, instead of just having like corps commanders, he's going to have wing commanders. So he's going to make a new thing here. You know what I mean? He's.

What's the difference between a wing and a core?

Like now you got like a core commander, you know, can operate independently, but now he's going to make a wing commander that's over top of two corps commander. He's making more layers.

Layers.

And it's also so now that these wing commanders, so he makes three of them. And you know, so. And each one of them have two core commanders underneath there. So you got like, there's a lot of generals here. There's a lot of staff. You know what I mean? Like have you ever gone in somewhere and you're like, dude, there's more people on the staff than you got, like people carrying rifles.

So we got, we got the wing with two cores in each wing. So we got six cores.

Yeah, it's pretty much he's got six core, but he's going to make a.

Meanwhile, generally on the other side, he's got two core, two core, got two people he needs to talk to.

That's it.

No extra layer in there.

There's no layer. It's generally straight to the two core commanders. I mean, and you're seeing like, it was great when you read the Antietam, the order that he writes. I mean, Lee's very, he's good, you know what I mean? And he, you know, he trusts his two core commander. Like, he doesn't need to put another layer over top of them or create, create any more layers in the organization. It's the army of Northern Virginia. It's like in modern day we call it a flat organization. It's very flat. Not so much now with the army of the Potomac. So they're going to add this layer. They're going to have, you know, a left wing, center wing and a right wing. There we go. And these wing commanders, they're gonna make all the calls of what they do. So it's almost like as if he is completely detached himself of any responsibility. So it's almost like as if. Well, that wasn't me, that was Hooker was the wing commander on there. He's the one that made that decision, you know, I mean, and. But you can kind of expect it coming from Burnside. When Lincoln offered him the job, he knew that this was out of his wheelhouse. So he's going to create this layer. So he creates the layer and just so that people have the understanding of what's going to, of what's going on. And then he's got to get this bridging.

So then when he, so when does, when is Jackson able to make it? If those pontoon bridges would have been there, is this a similar scenario to Antietam where it's like, hey, if these bridges were there, we just had, we just had Longstreet to deal with. Union would have only had Long street. Half, half the amount of people, half the force would have been a totally different scene. But the freaking pontoon bridges don't show up.

Yeah, and for folks that kind of know it, like up at Chatham Manor, they actually have some of these pontoons like on display. So if you could imagine, like A like pretty much everybody knows what a john boat kind of looks like, you know what I mean? Just flat bottom john boat. Imagine putting wagon wheels on the john boat and you know what I mean? And so you can pull them so they're land mobile. And then when you get there, you're going to take these pontoons and you're just going to basically stack them up port to starboard instead of not nose to nose, you know, port to starboard all the way across the river. You're going to lash them all together, you're going to lay boards on top of these pontoons and then you're going to put some dirt on there. And then now you've got a bridge. Pretty simple process we've been doing it for, you know what I mean? Like the pontoon bridges is nothing new but you know they're all the way up, up around the Harpers Ferry area, you know what I mean? Because that's where, that's the last time we were monkeying around with rivers and creeks and streams. So the problem is, is you know, normally if this is like your number one thing, it's like, you know when I told you when I came here, you know, and Monday night we linked up and I showed up and I had the suitcase and it had all these books in the suitcase. And when I. And it's not like, like I like to check a bag, man, that way I can just stroll through the airport and I'm not dragging a bunch of shit with me and I don't have to like lift it up. But as I'm making the decision I'm like, if I check this bag and it's got all these books, I mean what did I bring? Like like 18 books. We got like 18 books laying around.

If I check the bag and I give it to the airline people and they lose that bag, we wouldn't be sitting here right now having this conversation because I'd be still over at the airport trying to find my bag. So I made the decision. This is the single point of failure is this frickin bag of books. Their single point of failure is these pontoon bridges. So he puts a lieutenant.

Like wow, you mean you got like so many general you could throw a stick in the army of the Potomac and you're going to hit a frickin general. I mean you got wing commanders, you got corps commanders, you got division commanders, you got brigade commander, like you got generals like everywhere man, you know what I mean? It's a general, general like doctor, doctor. Like everybody's afraid you mean, who do you pick the boot lieutenant to put him in charge? That's like me giving it to, like the boot lieutenant. You're going to carry that bag. I'm putting you in charge. The books are staying with me, man. So. And you could imagine, just like in modern day, you know, I mean, you got this Lieutenant. And Lieutenant's going to call a colonel because he needs to get something, be like, hey, sir, you know, you know, Colonel answers the phone, you know, Colonel Baker here. Yeah, this is. Sir, this is Lieutenant Jocko. And I was wondering if I could.

You know what I mean? And then exit because the colonel's like, what's this lieutenant calling me, man? You know what I mean? And so now they're having problems because he's just sending a memo up of a request, you know, please send the pontoon bridges. And they're all sitting around over there at the Chatham, Chatham Manor.

Waiting around. Hey, man, with pontoons, they. They on their way, sir. I haven't gotten really a response. I left a message, sent a text. I sent like numerous emails and I did a read receipt. He hasn't even opened up the email yet. He hasn't even looked at it. You know what I mean? So with that delay of getting the pontoon bridges down, there is getting time again for Robert E. Lee. Because he's sitting there just watching because, you know, he's ready to call the audible. He hasn't necessarily made his decision. He's just going to sit up there at Mary's Heights with Longstreet. And then when. And again, both of them are commanding views. I mean, you can see. And you got to remember now we're coming into December. There's no foliage in the trees, so any of the tree coverage is gone. So they can see both sides. Even still to this day, you can stand on both sides and you can see both sides. And he's sitting there watching. He's like, probably having a conversation with James. He's like, hey there, war horse. Are they really going to put those bridges in right there? This is going to be interesting. They're going to cross right here and across from Fredericksburg. So Lee's got enough time of buying time for the bridging. And then again, it's December and you got your engineer guys and they're like, well, it would have been easier to put the bridging in if we got here before the Confederates did. Because Robert E. Lee's going to take Barksdale and his Mississippians and he's going to put them down into the town. So now you're talking urban.

You know what I mean? So these guys are going to go urban, and he's going to take Barksdale and his Mississippians, and they're going to start laying the wood to these engineer guys that are going to be trying to lay this bridge and then coming across the river.

And it's December, so by the time the bridges show up and they're inserting the bridges, putting the bridges into place.

So now you got Burnside, he's got Sumner, Hooker and Franklin. Those are the wing commanders. And. And they're on the east side of the Rappahannock. And then you got Lee Longstreet. Jackson's now arrived.

You know, he's in route.

Oh, so he's still in route.

Yep.

But in order to slow down the insertion of these bridges.

They. They send these sharpshooters, the Mississippians down there into the town where you can do, like, little elements. Like, it's a different type of warfare. And they're. They're down there taking pot shots as these platoons, pontoon boots, boats are being put in. Again, Lee's just trying to slow these guys down.

It's all he's doing.

Finally, Jackson does arrive.

Yep.

And his. His initial thought is, let's flank these bastards.

Offense, dude. You know what I mean? Like, what am I here? He's the offense guy. Like, what are you here for? To go offense, of course.

And Lee says no. Lee says, nope, we're gonna, you know, hook in. Hook in on the. What, is he hooking on the right flank?

Yeah, he's on the. So you got up there on Mary's Heights, right behind the fairgrounds, sunken road area that's got long street. So he's gonna tie in to Longstreet's right flank, and he's going to run that. What is modern day lead drive that I kind of talked about over towards, like, there's a Prospect hill that's back through there. And so he's going to tie in. There's also a rail line that runs down all the way to Norfolk pretty much. If that kind of gives you a picture of where, you know, going in that southeast direction.

You know, it's so classic. This is like the fourth battle we've talked about. But these end up with these sort of very, very sort of like traditional battle lines. You know, you look at World War II, the. You start charting out where people are. Sometimes there's battles with battle lines really specific for you and I fighting in our age, it Was like the battle lines were really blurry. These. These are very. End up very specific battle lines once again, you know, basically the 12 sides of the river. And we're gonna fight. We're. We're lined up and we're gonna fight each other. They end up once again with kind of three sections of bridge. The upper bridge, the middle bridge, lower bridge.

The.

The.

It's just a nightmare from the day from. From when it starts, when these guys actually start coming across. When the Union starts coming across these bridges. It's a nightmare.

Yeah. And if you could imagine. So the reaction of the army of the Potomac. So, okay, so we stick these Mississippians, Barksdale down there, and they're gonna start, like, occupying some of these houses and start, you know, what we would call sniping, you know what I mean? And so they're gonna start hitting these guys. So what's the reaction from them? We're gonna use our artillery. So now they're gonna start lobbing artillery in, which then causes rubble, which you know as well as anybody, you. It's easier to find the sniper, and that's not in rubble. You start rubbling. In an urban environment, man, now you're looking at, like, every little crest and crevice of where these guys can get into. You know what I mean? And it's going to make it very difficult.

And what about the civilian populace?

The civilian populace is. I mean, it can either, you know, you can either harbor up in the basement. Not a good call. So the women and kids are literally going to be displaced into the woods. Like, they're just going to run out of Fredericksburg, and they're going to get as far away from the battle. And it's in December, and you've got women and kids that are literally now homeless. And you have to imagine, like, you know, with the armies that are there.

Robert, you're going to have to deal with that. Like, you know, I mean, you just can't let them run you. These are your people, you know, I mean, and now they're being displaced out of their town and their home. So that's another aspect of what Robert E. Lee and the. And. And the Confederacy is going to have to deal with. Is. Is this, you know, I mean, what do we do with these people? We can't just leave them out here in December. These are kids. And of course they're trying to take as much stuff with them as they can on the way out. But, you know, most of the time, I mean, it's like, you know, you kind of look at what's going on in Ukraine right now. I mean, people are losing their homes. They got nowhere to go. I mean, the country, you have to take care of those people. So they got to deal with that, which is. Is. Is huge. Of like, man, I mean, how do you do that to civilians? I mean, you're bombarding their town. And what do you think that does for the morale on the southern side? They're like, dude, these guys, man, yeah, they come across this river, brother, we're going to lay the wood to that ass. And, and that's. That's what they're going to do because they're going to see that. You know what I mean?

It's like anybody sitting there watching, yeah.

They'Re watching this all go down and then they're going to start. So, you know, you got the. So you got with the upper. The bridging, which is up kind of close. As close to the Telegraph Road as it is at upper bridge upstream, if you would say. And you got one. One of the bridges is right there in the middle. Right there coming up probably closest to like modern day William Street. That's there. There's actually a bridge there that's. Now it's run in the middle. And then downstream from there, a little bit farther outside of the town is that lower bridge. And as you said, you know, you've got Hooker, that's basically in the middle. You got Sumter and you got Franklin and those folks are going to try to gain that foothold like right there across into Fredericksburg. And that's where basically those Mississippians and those guys are going to give resistance. But then they're going to start the retrograde back to get. I mean, Mary's Heights is that that's the primary line of battle that you were kind of talking about. Like they're drawn line of battle. And like you said, so when Jackson shows up and you know he just looks straight at the geometry of the battlefield and he's like, you know what I mean? You hold him, I skin them. And. And he just wants to go offense. And Robert E. Lee's like, you know what Stonew it tie in on the extreme right flank there. We're going to run defensive operations. This is a new thing here, this whole defense, this digging, this, you know, fortified positions. You know, at the beginning when people are like, well, this isn't very manly. Now they're like, dude, you put dirt in front of me, it like stops bullets. And now you can only see like 10 inches of my head and wow, this is cool. There's a fricking stone wall right here with a sunken road. We had a sunken road, you know, up at Antietam. I mean, nothing good happens at sunken roads. So in the occupied position. So you've got infantry down there on this stone wall and you've got artillery on the heights behind them. And even though they're outnumbered, I mean, you know, you did the math with how many folks, it doesn't matter who's got the better ground. And it's Robert E. Lee and the army of Northern Virginia. And then they're going to run that line all the way down that river ridgeline. And as the farther you get south of Fredericksburg, where that lower bridge is, if you went there today, it's now it's a, it's a, it's an airport. Like, it's like a small local little airport, like grass airport, if that kind of lets you know. Airports are usually put in flat spots. That is a flat, large open area of at least it's over. It's, it's at least over a mile from the river to that ridgeline.

So when you. Yeah, sometimes I'll be talking to people. I was trying to be set up like a hypothetical scenario. Some, some terrible hypothetical, surreal. Say, hey, you know what if I told you that there's enemy in an elevated position bunkered in and I want you to charge that hill, what would you say? And I always, you know, I have the learning point of I might, you know, I would, I would want you to say is, hey, Jocko, there's enemy in a bunker, position elevated. You want me to charge up the hill? That doesn't make sense. We should not do that. That's what, that's a learning point. Right, Right. I try and set up the worst case scenario so that my subordinate says, hey, Jocko, this doesn't sound like a good idea. This is the scenario I set up. This is actually even worse because now we're going to throw in the amphibious part where we're channelized coming across a river. So you're getting channelized, you're coming across a river, then you're going to. Oh, it's going to be even worse as well. Before you get the assault up the hill first you're going to spend several hundred yards passing through an urban area. Oh, and then, by the way, it's going to be even worse because then you're going to go through an open area where you got elevated positions above you and there's no cover. You can't Use any terrain at all. That's what the Union is trying to do. They're trying to come across a river. Once they get across the river, find their way through this rubbled urban area. If that urban area extended all the way to the heights, that actually be better. But it doesn't. It stops. And now you got this open fairground area where there's no cover. When you get to the end of the fairground, there's a sunken road with a stone wall where the enemy is. And then it elevates there. So now you got artillery and more firepower up above. This is an absolute worst case scenario. This is just a horrible situation to get into. And you, you can. You can figure out how it goes. I mean, this is a bloodbath. This is a bloodbath for the Union as they push through this.

That being said, at the lower bridge, there's actually some.

Progress. Mead, who we're going to hear a lot about in the future. But Mead, who's. What's his position at this point? What is he?

One of the division commander?

So he's a division commander. He actually.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the terrain kind of dictates to him there's an opportunity to get into some terrain. His men are naturally drawn into this sort of ravine. They push into this ravine. Turns out to be an area where the Confederates haven't really set up because it doesn't seem like it's a great spot to attack. But because there's cover there, Union forces end up there. And all of a sudden there's a little penetration here for meat.

Yeah. So if you could imagine, we're all like, we're running across this huge open field and we're just, you know, and it's Jackson. So it's. It's second core. It's, you know, stonewall it. They've. They've made it up in there. They've got the heights and it's a prominent, prominent height. And probably the first ounce of any kind of COVID is that rail line that kind of runs because, you know, it's a. It's a raised bed. So, you know, if they can get at least there. But I mean, dude, Jocko. I mean, man, you get. Nowadays, like, it's literally. It's called the slaughter pen. Now, like, when you drive through Fredericksburg and you're down there doing a battle study, you're gonna go to the slaughter pen. So if that gives you kind of a description of what they call it. So this slaughter pen that they're running across and Mead's guys, it's like one of this adrenaline draw that goes up to the ridgeline and it's, it's wooded. So if, if we're getting shot at, you know what I mean? Me and you are like, hey JD man, let's run over there where the.

Trees are and no direction needed.

It's not like Mead was like, hey boys, let's head over there. Dude, they're already going that way and me is letting them go and, and he follows him up in there. Well, when, when. And it's, it's a very wooded, thick, you know what I mean? Like, like area. So when, when Jackson's setting his lines in up there, one he also, you know, we didn't talk about this, but Jackson, he does what he's told by Robert E. Lee, but he takes Hill and he kind of puts him in reserve and he looks at Hill and he's like, hey dude, like you're not going to get up here on the line. I'm going to keep you back here in reserve because I'm going to go back and talk to Bobby and I'm going to see if he's going to let me take you and we're going to go down and we're going to flank them. You know, I mean so. And he'll. Yep, got it, boss. We'll stay right here. I mean it's a Stonewall Jackson telling you, you know, getting reserved.

So Hill. So Jackson's got his whole core up online except for Hill who's sat back and he's saying, look, as soon as we get the chance, I'm going to go talk to General Lee. When the opportunity presents itself, we're going to flank these guys and, and, and mop them up.

Yep. And so if you could, I mean the line up there, I mean this is a, this is a large. That we're talking their coverage of a frontage of Long street and Jackson. It's like a three mile coverage frontage. Three mile. I mean it's, it's a long road. I run it all the time. Love it. But I mean it's a long frontage of just troops and you can, the trenches are still there to this day. So these guys are like, they're, they're into it. Like they're, they're seeing to where we're in an elevated position. We're going to dig in and these guys are going to come at us and I basically have like a dog target, you know what I mean of me over the rifle pit. And these guys are on a flat, open area with no cover. So when they looked at it up on this ridgeline and they see this draw coming up and it's heavily wooded, they leave a gap there. They don't put any personnel there. So you've got a whole bunch, you know, private, Private. Private companies, regiments, all lined up, and then you've got a gap. And that gap is probably. I mean, the gap is no more than 150 yards, but that's where Mead's folks end up in that draw. And they come out on top of the ridge and they're like, well, holy shit, man.

Behind Jackson's lines. And Mead is seeing this. And another thing that Jackson does, you know, we talk about this guy Pelham. He's an artillery guy. He's like a horse artillery guy. He's working for Jackson. He's gonna slip down in over. Kind of like. So you got Jackson, he's gonna go down off of Jackson's southern end, and there's like this. This road with a ditch going towards the river. And he's gonna take his artillery down there, and he's just going to start like, lobbing artillery shots over at the Union guys coming across this slot.

He's taking a little bit of a flank.

He's taking a flank.

Taking a little bit of a flank on the Union. And he's lobbing.

Just. Yeah, I mean, but he's like that gnat. So it's nat. So they got a couple of these shots that are coming out. Well, next thing you know, he starts turning the army. They start concentrating. Like, okay, let's. Let's all. Let's go after this, dude.

So they. Instead of focusing up the hill.

Yep.

Where me just penetrated.

Yep.

They start focusing to the left where they're getting flanked a little bit. But it shouldn't. It's a distraction more than anything else.

That's all it is, is Pella. And even the guys that are up there up at Prospect Hill on that ridgeline are like, hey, they're all looking up. They're like, hey, dude, look at what Pelham's doing. You know what I mean? He's. Now they're not shooting at us anymore. Where they're supposed to be coming now, they're starting to folk. And Pelham, he's not staying there. He's stationary. But he can get up and move quick. Like, he's not going to stand toe to toe with these folks. He's just distracting them enough, you know what I mean? To now allow. Because as soon if they turn towards Pelham now, their flank is exposed to the folks up on the ridgeline. That's a bad move. So these guys are focused on Pelham. So everybody's up there like, dude, look at Pelham, man. You know what I mean? He's getting after it, you know what I mean? He's got these guys focused on them, which is making it better for us. Now they're not coming to take the heights. So Mead, you know, he's got his peer, you know, I mean, and peer leadership is always, always difficult, you know what I mean? Because, you know, you tell me if you and I are peers, I'm like, chaka, you're not in charge of me. You know what I mean? So Mead is made this. He's exploited success here. The only dude on the entire battlefield that's having any success, and it's a major success.

By the way, you broke through the lines. Yep.

You've got a gap in the line now because now you can split Jackson's core.

Yeah.

And then now you've gained what? Oh, shit, you got high ground. So he's going to send a note back down. He's trying to get his peers to be like, hey, dude, we broke the lines, man. Let's all come in. And they're all looking at him like, dude, that's going to have to come from the wing commander, man. I don't take orders from you. Well, as you know with anything, I mean, that that window of opportunity is only going to stay open for a certain amount of time, because you got that guy Hill that was left in reserve. They see what's happening up there. I mean, it's not like, you know, once they get into lines and the shooting starts, they're all kind of like, holy shit, man, we got a hole in our line. We need to. To plug it. And Hill, without Jackson's not there. And he knows Jackson told him, you stay right there, because when I come back, we're going offensive, brother. And he, on his own, takes his folks. Bam, they plug the hole. Me gets pushed back down through that same draw and back towards the river. That window just shuts on me. Because he can't convince any of his peers to support him.

So this is kind of. That's where day one kind of ends up. But in the meantime, you got up at the fairgrounds going back up to the fairgrounds where these guys were getting annihilated.

Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, he's up there and he.

Has a night where he calls it the bivouac. With the dead. And we're going to talk a lot about Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain. I don't know who likes him more, you or me.

It's pretty close.

But you know, he's got this book covered on the podcast. It's called Bayonet Ford. It's just unbelievable book. This is, this is a guy that we're going to learn a lot about. Incredible guy, Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain. And he writes this. It was a cold night. So this is after the first day's battle. They've been in this bloodbath all day. They you really. It's going to be really difficult to go back. It's one of those situations that lose, lose. Like you go back and you'll be getting fired on again. You'll have to try and cross the river again. Or you go forward. You can't go any further forward. You're just stuck. And that's where they are. They're stuck. Bivouac with the dead. Here we go. It was a cold night. Bitter, raw north winds swept stark slopes. The men, heated by their energetic and exciting work, felt keenly a chilling change. Many of them had neither overcoat nor blanket. Having left them with the discarded knapsacks, they roamed about to find some garment not needed by the dead. Mounted officers all lacked outer covering. This had gone back with the horses strapped to the saddles. The so we joined the uncanny quest. Necessity compels strange uses. For myself it seemed best to to bestow my body between two dead men among the many left there by earlier assaults, and to draw another crosswise for a pillow out of the trampled blood soaked sod, pulling the flap of his coat over my face to fend off the chilling winds, and still more chilling the deep many voiced moan that overspread the field.

It was heartrending. It could not be borne. I rose at midnight from my unearthly bivouac and taking our adjutant for my companion, went forth to see what we could use, see what we could do for these forsaken sufferers. Deep the deep sound led us to our right and rear, where the fiercest of the fight had held brave spirits too long. As we advanced over that stricken field, the grave conglomerate monotone resolved itself into a diverse several elements. Some breathing inarticulate agony.

Some dear home names, some begging for a drop of water, some caring for some for a a caring word, some praying God for a strength to bear, some for life, some for quick death.

We did what we could, but how little it was on a field so boundless for feeble human reach.

So you got, I mean, I, I wish I could do justice reading that. This guy, they're up there. The, the, the screams, the agonies, the begging for death, the begging for life, the prayers that. It overwhelms them, the sound of it overwhelms them. And they get up, they try and help these guys, they try and provide them some comfort.

While they're freezing. By the way, they all left their, their, their, you know, their coats. They left them back before they did the assault. Hey, you know this is going to take too long.

So you got Chamberlain, some of his guys out there trying to take care of these dying.

He's not the only one that's doing it, not by a long shot. There's a, another hero, Sergeant Richard Roland Kirkland of the 2nd South Carolina. And there's a book called the Fredericksburg campaign by Francis O'Reilly and he's got a, an account of this.

Here we go to this book. 20 year old Sergeant Richard Roland Kirkland of the 2nd South Carolina felt particularly moved by the pathos.

Because he's up there and he's hearing the screams and the agony as well. He asked General Kershaw if he could take water to the injured Northerners. Generals, General, he beseeched, I can't stand this.

Kirkland. The general answered, don't you know that you would get a bullet through your head the moment you stepped over that wall?

But the youth was willing to take that risk. If you will let me, the sergeant stated, I am willing to try it.

Kershaw acquiesced. He told the sergeant, I will not refuse your request, trusting that God may protect you. Kirkland asked if he could wave a white flag to stop the shooting, but Kershaw could not allow it. Military protocol forbade such a usage. All right, sir, he replied, I'll take the chances.

Kershaw watched the sergeant leave the Stevens house with the feeling of profound admiration. Kirkland filled several canteens at Martha Stevens well and then entered the field between the lines. Federals immediately opened fire. A watching Georgian thought the bullets were so concentrated that it seemed a bird could not escape them. Kirkland reached the first wounded Federal and knelt to give him a drink. The Carolina placed a knapsack under the Northerner's head, covered him with a blanket, and then moved on to the next man. The Federals stopped shooting and watched. Troops on both sides cheered as the brave sergeant moved from soldier to soldier. The ceasefire may have been, may have prompted others to come forward with more water. The historian for Kershaw's brigade remembered the event with a Georgian running between the lines with water. A squad, according to the staff officer, went out after dark on the same charitable mission.

At least one federal procured water for the discomfited, which an admiral rebel called the coolest performance I witnessed during the war.

Whether Kirkland acted alone or pioneered a host of encounters and somehow became a composite for all the works of mercy is hard to determine. Seventeen years after the battle, a newspaper correspondent begged for the name of the man who gave water to his enemies.

General Joseph Kershaw responded instantly, naming Richard Kirkland as the angel of Mary's Heights.

Kirkland.

Incredible story.

Incredible.

When I, you know, just for the. If you go to Fredericksburg and there's one thing that you want to see, go to Lafayette Boulevard in Fredericksburg. It's right, right where the fairground. But he talks about, you know, that wall. That's the sunken road. You hop over that wall and behind the Fredericksburg Visitor center for the battlefield that's there is the Kirkland Monument.

As far as it's the only enlisted monument.

In the entire Civil War named after an enlisted soldier. And it has nothing to do with his combatant skills. It's his love for the fellow soldier. And to be named the angel of Mary's Heights. And the monument is just, just incredible because it literally, I mean, it's a. It's a big monument, which I'm stoked about. You know, I love every group that I take to Fredericksburg. Like, you're going to stand in front of the Kirkland Monument and there's going to be a group picture. Like, we don't take any other pictures anywhere on the battlefield. Well, you're going to get your picture taken at the Kirkland Monument. The well is still there. You know what I mean? The road is still there. It's not you. You can't drive the road. That's just stone wall. I mean, the high. I mean, so you can let literally like, I mean, I love. I probably when I'm at home, I run down there on that sunken road at least once a week. And every time, you know, I run past, you know, it's 5:15 in the morning, man, not a soul out there. And you're running down and it's that pea gravel that's on there. So all you're hearing is that, you know what I mean? And you can see the Kirkland Monument. And it just. Every time I run past there, this is the, this is the only guy. Him and Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain of just When I'm running that sunken road of that, I mean, listen, you know, sleeping, you know, a night with the dead and trying to imagine myself out there in 1862, I left all my kit, you know what I mean? It's back with the wagons. Because of course, man, I mean, you're going into battle, you don't. You don't want. You want to get rid of as much gear as possible to make you get around faster. And you know, to be out there and for him to. When you. Chamberlain, sharing in the suffering. I mean, those two individuals of Kirkland and Chamberlain, you know what I mean, of what they do for just the love of their comrades is just amazing to me. Those are two of the most incredible people that are out there. And they're both in that they are so close to each other, you know what I mean? You got one that's, you know, South Carolina. He's right there at the wall. He was the one that was laying the wood to Chamberlain's guys coming across that Fredericksburg fairground that's out there. So Chamberlain is in that field somewhere, that Kirkland and some of these other. And it isn't remarkable that you know, of course, as soon as he hops over the wall, well, of course they're going to start taking shots at this guy and he doesn't get hit. And it's not a great distance. I mean, it's not like it's out of range. They're not doing thousand yard shots here. I mean, we're talking a couple of hundred yards, man. You're within range pretty easily and nothing hits them. And then when they see the act, he's not even carrying a rifle. He's just. And, and in that it. The monuments depicting him and it's got like the. He's got the canteens just like strong all over his back. And he's just, you know, and it's showing him. I can imagine going around and just. I mean, he just listening to those folks just laying on that deathless field, you know what I mean? Just got to him. And, and it's pretty cool that, you know, Kershaw, even, you know, years later he could recall that instance of. Yeah, that was. That was Kirkland. And he gets named, you know, the angel of Mary's Heights. I mean, people remember that. And it's a, you know, if you're going to visit one thing in Fredericksburg, Virginia, it's. It's the Kirkland monument. It's the. That. That monument's phenomenal. It's my favorite of how bad is.

The suffering, the sounds because you can't see, right? It's dark. So you're just sitting there behind this wall of people that were just coming to kill you, by the way. People that are attacking your people that bomb the town in front of you, and they are suffering and they sound so wretched that you say, you know what? I'm going to go give them some water. I'm going to go give him some mercy. You ask the general. The general says, hey, look, I can't say no to you. Go ahead, you step over the wall, you get shot at. I mean, what percentage of people my ass is right back over the wall. Okay, bro, I was going to give you some water, okay? You know what I mean? Like, it's a miracle he didn't get shot. It's a bigger miracle that he didn't jump back over the wall and, you know, find a blanket, go to sleep.

Incredible story. And it highlights that even in, in war, the mercy, the. The. The benevolence stands out.

Day two, you can probably figure out where this is going. Union gets pushed back across the river.

And.

Here'S what Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain has to say about the battle. After their. Their back over the river. Over the river then we marched and up that bank once. We now looked back across at Fredericksburg and saw the green slopes blue with the bodies of our dead.

It was raining drearily when I brought the regiment to rest by the dismal wayside. General Hooker came riding slowly by.

We had not seen him during the terrible three days. Indeed, he had no business to be where we were. We supposed he and our corps commander, Butterfield, were somewhere controlling and observing their commands. Hooker caught sight of me sitting in the rain, leaning back against a tree, and gave me kindly greeting. You've had a hard chance, colonel. I'm glad to see you out of it. I was not cheerful, but tried to be bright. It was chance, general. Not much intelligent design there. God knows I did not put you in, came the rather crisp reply. That was the trouble, general. You should have put us in. We were handled in piecemeal, on toasting forks. It was plain talk and he did not reprove me. So this is something that we're seeing and it's something, you know, at echelon front, we call it prioritize and execute. You gotta commit to what you're doing. You can't try and do two, three different things at once in the military. Other military principles, they call it concentration of force, right? So we see a lot of this from the north, where they have an opportunity to go in. And that's what Chamberlain's saying here is like, put. No, put me in. Let's focus. Let's go. Because there's a lot of troops that are being sent in. You know, if I'm gonna fight four different people and you send one, well, I'm gonna kick his ass. Then you send another one, I'm gonna kick his ass too. You send another one to kick his ass. The fourth one, I might be a little tired, but I'm still going to kick his ass. You send four people at me at once, I might get a shot on one of them. But then someone's tackling me and it's game over. So the Union. That's kind of how this unfolded for the Union.

Carrying on. But the general's remark led to wide inferences. Inferences. It disclosed perhaps the main cause of this great disaster. The commander of the center grand division did not put his men in. They were sent by superior orders in detachments to support other commands or as a forlorn hope at various times and places during the unexpected developments or rather the almost inevitable accidents of the battle, it should not have been a disaster. Franklin, with his 60,000 men should have turned Lee's right, whereas he attacked with only two divisions and one at a time and did not follow up with his whole force, their splendid initiative. When Franklin failed, it was rashness to expect Sumner to carry the formidable heights behind the city made impregnable by Lee's best skill and valor. So what? What, you really think we're going to march up this hill? It's everything I just laid out. You think we're going to cross this river through the town, across the open, over the stone wall and up the hill? That's not going to happen. So why we keep pushing, guys there. That front might have been held still under menace while Sumner, reinforced perhaps by the main body of Hooker's grand division, might have concentrated upon Lee's left above the city and flanked the formidable bastions crowning the heights that entrenched his front with all that earth and manhood could do. Simple as that. Hey, why didn't we run a flank?

That battle was not fought according to Burnside's intention and that his plan was mutilated by distrust and disharmony among his subordinates. Commanders does not exonerate him.

So they didn't do exactly what Burnside wanted. But that. That doesn't mean that Burnside's clear. It is part of the great trust and place of a chief commander to control reluctant and incongruous elements and to make subordinates and opponents submit to his imperial purpose. So if your people aren't doing what you want them to do, that's your fault when you're in charge.

Burnside attempted a vindication somewhat on these lines, but too late. He prepared an order removing from command several of his high ranking, but too little subordinate generals and made ready to prefer their preferred charges against them for trial by court martial. So after the battle, he's like, oh, you know, these guys should have done better. I'm gonna, I'm gonna court martial them.

But Lincoln again interposed his common sense advice and the matter was passed over. Lincoln was like, hey, dude, you can't throw the blame on these.

Not long after, at his own request, Burnside was relieved from command of the army and resumed his place with the his old 9th Corps.

So.

Leadership, leadership, leadership. That's what this is. You have good leadership and you have bad leadership, and leadership's the most important thing on the battlefield. Good leadership is going to win. Bad leadership is going to fail. And this was a failure for the Union.

But the war would continue.

And we will continue on the next Civil War excursion. And if you want to support this podcast, go to jocko store.com jockofuel.com originusa.com echelonfront.com and vo.

And until next time, this is JD and Jocko out.