Jocko Responds to Rumors of Being on Steroids, TRT, and PEDs. Jocko DMZ 001

This is the Jocko DMZ podcast, episode one. Sitting here with Echo Charles. So I get a random text from you. Echo Charles. Get a random text from Echo. And it says, the whole world thinks you're on steroids.

Which I. There's no context around it. And I wrote back, why is that? Or something along those lines. And then you sent me the link to this YouTube video of more plates, more dates, which is the YouTube channel. And it's this video and they're trying to decipher whether I'm on steroids or on trt. So I laughed. It was funny. It was funny. And the, like, the subtitle of it is he trains three times a day, sleeps five hours and is fucking huge. That's the.

That'S the title of it. And it's funny. It's. So I laughed. Smile a little bit. And it's, it's kind of funny for me to people to think I'm on steroids or on testosterone.

It's a good compliment because I'm not. And I don't have anything, I don't have anything against people that do steroids. Unless you're like competing in a sport where you're not supposed to. You do that kind of stuff. And then I don't really. Yeah, then you shouldn't do it. But I know a lot of people that are on either are on steroids, have been on steroids. I know a lot of people that have been on trt, which interestingly the fact what I'm saying right now is one of the things that this guy, his name is Derek and I've watched a bunch of his videos before randomly. He's a well educated guy. He's a smart guy. He's pretty funny too. But that's one of the things that he sort of mentioned when he makes his conclusion, which the, the conclusion of the video is, and I forgot I've got the exact quote written down here somewhere. It's kind of like, yeah, he's probably done steroids and he's almost definitely on trt, which was his conclusion, which was interesting because the guy does have a lot of knowledge about this kind of stuff. But it's weird because even as he was saying, coming to this conclusion, you got a lot of. He kept backpedaling a little bit, but then kind of moving forward, backpedaling a little, moving forward. Now, here's the deal. I don't really care what. I think. It's kind of funny and whatever. There's all. You're always gonna have stuff said about you on the Internet. But here's where I was a little bit concerned is if you're a person that's. Let's say you're a 18 year old kid and you think Jocko's cool and you hear this thing, then maybe people are starting to think, oh, well, you know, Jocko uses steroids. Just watch this video. Or if you're a person that's in the military or in law enforcement where you're putting your job in jeopardy to use steroids or use these kind of drugs, then that's bad. And I didn't want to have that out there where people are like, well, you know, Jocko uses them.

Right.

Because that's the, the conclusion. So yeah, I wanted to like go through it a little bit and see how we ended up in this situation where, where we're at. What do you.

That's a good point there where I didn't really think about it in that depth. Where. Yeah, who cares? Especially nowadays. Take, take whatever you like, unless you're literally cheating on something in something official, whatever, but do your thing.

But yeah, so if, if you're doing it and everyone else is doing it and it's so like normal in life or whatever. Yeah. Who's doing the. What's to. That'll influence younger people, less knowledgeable people to be like, oh, everyone does it. Even Jocko, this pillar of integrity, you know, in their mind and all this stuff. And so that's how normal it is. And you know, it's some influence. It's like false influence, you know.

Yeah. So that made me feel like, oh, maybe we should, we should talk about it a little bit because that's not cool.

The. So how that let me just give my background a little bit, just kind of so people understand.

So when I was a kid, I was a hardcore kid, I was a straight edge kid. If you don't know what that means, that means I didn't drink, I didn't smoke, I didn't smoke pot, I didn't do anything like that. I was into hardcore music and I was what's called straight edge back in the day. So. So that's, that's the beginning. Now if I was into other kind, if I was into metal, which I was into metal, but I moved past the metal very quickly and into hardcore and got into that scene. And so I was in that scene, my friends were in that scene. There we are. And guess what? When you're in that scene, you're not drinking, you're not doing drugs. So there's my high school years, you know, like, they're done. Then what do I do? Well, then I joined the military. So when you join the military, guess what? You can't do drugs.

Now. I drank when I was in the military. I drank a lot. Probably drank too much. But if you get caught doing drugs in the military, you get kicked out of the military.

Even steroids.

Even steroids. Even steroids.

Now, again, when. Look, people want to do drugs. I got all kinds of friends that do drugs. I got all kinds of friends that do drugs. I got friends that smoke pot all day long. I got friends that drink a lot. I got friends that do mushrooms and acid and all kinds of crazy shit. And I don't. I'm. These are my legitimate friends.

But I don't do that stuff, so I don't hold anything against them. And I got a lot of friends that have used steroids for sure and use steroids for sure. People that I train with sometimes, people that are on trt. I know all these kinds of people.

I don't.

I don't. I don't hold one single grudge against them. When someone beats the shit out of me on the mats or roughs me up and I think, well, you know, oh, that guy's probably on steroids or is on steroids. Which, by the way, they. They'll tell me, oh, yeah, you know, I'm going to cycle. Oh, cool. You know, I don't. I don't have any animosity towards that person, but in the navy, in the military, you can't do that. And there was a bunch of comments in these sections that were about everyone in the military's on steroids, which was crazy for me to read. It was crazy for me to read.

But, okay, so I'm in the military. If you use drugs, if you use steroids, you can get kicked out. There was no way I was ever gonna sacrifice or put at risk my military career doing the job I loved because I wanted to be a little bit bigger. And by the way, I was pretty big, you know, Like, I wasn't. I was good to go. I wasn't in this situation where I was like, oh, no, I hope I can, you know, be a little bit stronger. I wasn't in that situation. I wasn't in a situation where I was like, oh, I hope I can be a little bit more jacked. I was as jacked as I thought I could needed to be to do my job.

Do you know anyone that got in trouble, I don't know, kicked out, whatever for steroids.

I know, I know guys that got in trouble. I don't know if anyone got kicked out.

I know that it was, quote, hard to test for. They'd say, right? They'd be like, it's really hard to test. So what they would do is they would take. This is alleged, right? This is. This is what I'd hear. And this is the kind of stuff that I just need to hear this one time. And I'd be like, okay, cool. What they do is it's really expensive to test for steroids. So they would test a hundred samples, they'd mix them all together and test for steroids. And if it was in there, then they'd do an individual test for each one of them to save money. So I hear that. I'm like, okay, so they're testing. I don't. I'm not going to do this yet. And by the way, like, of all my close friends in the SEAL teams.

There'S not one of them. I'm trying to think.

I can't even think of any of them that was, like, doing steroids. I knew a guy, I knew guys that were peripheral friends. Like, oh, yeah, this guy. Oh, yeah, yeah, dude. He's juicing. And quite frankly, these were the people that were.

In some cases, it was like, oh, yeah, maybe violence. And we get on the shit, too. You know what I'm saying? Like, if you were, like, maybe you weren't as jacked, or maybe you didn't like working out as much as I did, or maybe you didn't, you know, you just were. Didn't have the genetics to walk around at 210, 220. Right. And if you don't have that, maybe you're like, bro, yeah, you know, and you're hanging around with a bunch of guys that are jacked. So. So occasionally you said you knew a.

Team guy, the team guy who got busted for steroids and got kicked out.

Okay, well, there you go. You know, there you go.

And I worked. He worked with me. He told me the whole story. He went down to. And it was weird. They didn't do it through a test, though. And this is how I sort of found out. I guess it's not like I was looking for the answer or nothing like that, but this is how I found out that, yeah, steroids are. No. In the teams, at least, because he went down to Mexico to get them. That's where he would always get them. And then this, this is the story he told me where he'd go there, inject Them in Mexico. And then he felt bad about throwing away all the needles and stuff. So he'd keep like the needles in the trash and stuff, like in his, like, bag or in his pockets or whatever.

The conscientious law breaker.

So what he said, bummer.

Yeah.

And then so he'd have like the used, like needles or whatever. And then he. So when he came back, they caught. They caught him. They were like, oh, you came here for sure. This was like long time ago, like 90 something.

They being the law enforcement or something.

Lawn. Yeah, the border guys or whatever. This actually, this is like maybe 2002. Maybe this is when I, When I knew him and stuff, worked with him. And then, yeah, he said that and I was like, oh, the story was weird. Like, that's a weird way to get caught, but whatever. And he got caught and then they reported it and all this stuff and he got kicked out.

Yeah, that's.

I would occasionally know of, like, Marines that were doing it occasionally, man, but it was not legal. I do know that, like, you, if you got in trouble for you were getting kicked out.

But is it the same now, though? Because let's face it, that was a different day.

Yes, it is the same now. Oh, it is the same now. Now do guys have more knowledge maybe where they can, like, know how to skirt the system or whatever that is possible. But with me, my friends.

Bro, like, and my friends were in good freaking shape. You know, we were lifting hard and whatever, like, trying to be jacked. And you know what else?

We're young.

And you know, when you're 18 years old, you're basically on steroids anyways because you have so much freaking testosterone in your system. So we're big. So. So that was my. So that was my Navy career. I'm not doing something that's going to put my whole life at risk. It's not going to happen. So then I retire, and now when I retire, I got wife and kids and houses and businesses and all this stuff going on. I actually, that's pretty much when I stopped drinking when I retired from the teams. Now all of a sudden, I don't have any of that. That type of friendship directly all the time. And I'm just like. And plus, I'm a little bit older and I'm looking around going, okay, what benefit am I getting out of this? And I'm. It's just a totally different scene. So I, I didn't, like one. I didn't retire and go like, I'm never drinking again. I just looked up In a month. And I had, like. Oh, you know, I had a couple beers here. And then two months later, I had a few beers and a couple drinks at this place or met a client. We had some. Whatever. Whatever it was. But then after, like, probably another year, I just looked up and I was like, oh, wait, it's been another four months. It's been six months. And then all of a sudden, I wasn't drinking anymore. And so that was that. And still was just like, I'm not doing any other drugs either.

So that's what happened. And.

That'S how my life has gotten to this point where I really. I haven't done. Not only have I not done steroids, I've never done any drugs other than alcohol and caffeine. Right. Which caffeine again? It's like.

I use that at certain times. I don't just drink caffeine all the time. But back to this video. It's. It's interesting. It's an interesting video. And it's. You can see this guy. His name is Derek. Seems like a good dude. Like I said, I've watched some of his. His thing is natty or not.

Hell yeah.

Because natty means natural.

Yes, sir.

And not means you're. What do they keep saying other words for? Like enhance.

Enhance.

And then they got all. Then I called all these other slang words for. It's pretty funny.

And what's your experience with the sauce, with the gear, with the steroids?

Yeah, okay, so. So yeah, okay, so.

Which, by the way, I. I actually mentioned this to you too. It had to be a little bit of a bummer that this guy does this whole video about steroids and you're in the video and he didn't mention you once, bro. I was like, this is gonna hurt. Echo's gonna be crushed.

Whatever, bro. Whatever. They mentioned in the comments. So.

Okay, you made the comments. You made the comments. I think maybe you're up next for natty. Or not Echo Charles.

So I don't know. You tell me if I've ever taken steroids, because it's one of those weird things. So. Okay, so when I was 22. I'm 44. I'm about to be 44, by the way, right now. I was 22 years old. I was working as a valet. I remember this for. And I was lifting, and I was big at this point. Like, right now, I was 240, okay. At that time, we were lifting. My boy, Squatty Lewis, AKA Scotty Lewis, Kona Police Department. I forget his position, but, man, Shout out. Yeah, he. It was me, him, and this other guy, R. Brooks. We'd lift and we were lifting hard. That was like the bro.

You about to rat out Squatty Lewis for doing juice.

No, no, no, no, no. He was that. These are just my lifting partners.

Okay.

I'm saying you can confirm with him too. After the video, I called him up.

I was like, bro.

All right, my numbers. Do I remember this correctly? He was like, bro. He squatted more than me a little bit. And then squatty, squatty all day. He. So anyway, so we'd lift a lot. And.

So there were other guys. There were like a number of guys who would. Who would do steroids. Not that would lift with us, but. And they were big and they were strong. And I remember I got up to 240. And you know, in Hawaii, everyone's kind of bigger, just in general. So I remember thinking if I could get up to like 262 5, that'd be a solid.

Like 260 is big. 260 is a big human, bro.

I have the picture of me 240. And the thing is, I don't look that big.

Yeah. Most I ever got to was 250.

Yeah.

I was at team two.

The most I weighed in was 247.

I was at team two. We were trying to get our platoon weight average over 200 pounds. And everyone was just squatting.

Oh, yeah.

Freaking eating. But you know what? Even that we weren't juicing. Yeah, we weren't juicing. Yeah, no, just lifting and eating. And I finally got to 250, did a four mile run, and I about died. And I was like, all right. I was not. My frame is not meant for 250.

Yeah. And mine wasn't either.

Okay, so you're at 240. You're lifting heavy.

Yeah. You know, you kind of camp out and you know when you kind of. When you get that kind of game. Because when I stopped playing football, I was like 185, 190.

So you put on 60, 50 pounds.

This is over like about a year.

Yeah. There's no one that's complaining about 50 pounds of gains.

Oh, yeah. All natural. All like, for real. I mean, you know, you get your kit. I remember there's a supplement called Beta Gin, you know, that I remember taking because my friend recommended or whatever.

Oh, well, if we're gonna bring up. I remember when. When creatine came out. Yeah, I was on. Yeah, I think it did too. I was on the creatine. Yep. Trying to get jacked.

Yeah, fully. But here's the thing. Like. Okay, so the workout program that I was on is a very effective workout program. It's still like. I still do it today, even just for maintenance, but it is. It is hard, bro.

You know what? I just want to interject this thing. When guys are in SEAL training right now, they're not allowed to take.

They're not allowed to take supplements. Because I guess along the way, someone, you know, positive, they're like, well, I was taking this supplement over here. And so they just like, okay, guess what? No supplements.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dirty batch, that whole thing. So. So when you say, like, are. Is it less stringent? That to me indicates hell no.

All right.

You know? Yeah, right.

They don't even do supplements.

Yeah. Can't even freaking take molk, for crying out loud. You need to make a waiver for that.

All right, long. Long story short, I was like, hey, yeah, some other guys that I knew and respected, like, they were kind of doing it. Yeah, this is. This is in 19. I don't know, 99 or something like that. And I remember thinking, yeah, if they're doing it, you know, like, sure, I'll. You know. So I kind of hit them up or whatever. And. And so they got me, if I'm remembering the name correctly, of it. Cause there's a bunch of different kind of steroids. Apparently I did not know this. And it was like sust and something. And it was like these little vials. And then you gotta get, like, needles. And they're like, hey, get the big needle. This. You know, the big needle. That's the good one. And I was like, when I was 12, long story. When I was young, I got a traumatic experience with a bunch of blood tests. Cause they had to do a bunch of surgeries on my hand for some stuff. So they blood test me a lot. And they missed IV a lot. And so when I was 12, so I did not like needles at this point. So I'm like, all right. I guess that's what we're doing. So cool. So. So my friend, he would. He stuck me with the first one. Boom. Puts it in or whatever. And I'm like, okay, cool. Like, it's worth it. It was no problem if someone else does it, you know? Like, okay. So I'm like, cool. I think.

I don't.

Brad. I didn't do research on this kind of stuff.

I just.

I just seen the other guys doing it and how strong and big and. And I was like, of course it works, or whatever. So, boom, he sticks me with one, and I'm like, cool. To me, the next day, I'm gonna be lifting way more than I was yesterday. Like, 100. So I go in there and I'm like, I'm not even stronger. It's like the next day. So I'm like, all right, cool. So it was just one shot, and then one, two, three days. And then the next week comes around. I'm not stronger at all. So I'm, like, kind of disappointed. But then I'm like, oh, maybe it takes a little while to kick in. Whatever, right? So the next week, I go, again, I had another shot. Boom. So I go. I'm working out my. Because I know the workout is very regimented. So I'm like. And each workout, you kind of. It's like you're going for a PR Every single day. It's. It's for a certain amount of reps and stuff like that. It's just the nature of the workout. So I remember freaking. Not even exceeding my old pr, like, all this. Like, I wasn't getting stronger at all. And I was like, super. And I'm freaking sticking. Getting stuck with, like, needles and doing steroids at this point. So I'm like, oh, frick. All right. So the third week comes around, and I get. He does one more, and I'm like, cool. And I go. And still nothing. In fact, one day, I had a bad day. I got a weekday, and I was like this. These are not working. But I'm like, whatever. Maybe I just got to do more, make it. Maybe I got to buy some more. Maybe it takes. Takes longer than I thought. Then. So my friend. The next week, my friend is out of town. He went, like, somewhere, and I'm like, I don't want to tell anyone. I'm going to tell anyone. Can you do this? Can you stick this in my butt or whatever? And so I'm like, I gotta do it. I gotta do it. So, like, so I'm sitting in my room, like, it'll be a bad edit.

Right there, that one.

So I'm thinking that. So this was shot number four. I'm on. Right. I think the number was 250. Sustis something. 250. That's what this compound was. So I'm like, in my room, like, trying to do. I can't do it. I can't bring myself to do it. I need someone to do it. But I'm like, no, I'm gonna sat. You know, Like, I can lift. I'm strong. I was strong. Already. And so I think I'm like, tough or whatever. And why is this needle defeating me? So I'm like, no, I'm gonna do it. And I.

Couldn'T do it. It took me like one hour to just give up and be like, I can't. I can't do it to myself. And my friend was out of town for, like, three weeks. It was like, for the. You know, for a long time. And so I just put it away. And then, you know how you kind of reflect? Like, what am I? I don't really get what I'm doing right now when I kind of reflect. And then. So I still had like three, four or five more shots, like left in the. In the little packages or whatever. Those are probably still hidden in the mattress in Hawaii somewhere or somebody found them or whatever, but yet never did did those three shots, no gains, in fact, had a fucking bad day. That's. That's what really made me sad. Like, I'm like, bro, I can see if I maintain. And it didn't kick until later, but I had. I remember, like, thinking, are these making me weaker or something? It's probably because they didn't rest or didn't eat or whatever that good. But no gains, no benefit, no nothing. No side effects, no nothing. I'm expecting to get roid, raging, you know, because I was like, Cruz, I was pretty cruise mellow of a person. So I'm thinking, oh, maybe I'll. I'll be more angry and that'll be cool, you know, like more and more. More. Like. What do you call when you confront people more? Yeah, confrontational. You know, that'll help my little personality or whatever. Nothing. Nothing. Like, no effects at all. Like, if. If that. If I found out later that those. That batch was like, fake or not real, I'd be, oh, that makes sense to me because it didn't affect. So anyway, that was it. That was my whole steroid experience.

But technically, echo, have you ever taken steroids? Yeah, that's it. That is 100 of my steroid experience.

So I had a similar assessment. So I was on my own. I was on deployment. And there was, like, guys that. In another platoon, and they went on a trip somewhere. And again, like, the reason I didn't bring this up, when I talked about my close friends, like, these guys were in a different platoon. I knew them. They were good guys and everything. But, like, a couple of them, when they went on this trip, they juiced, right? And they. And they came back and they're like, the rumors, like, hey, These guys are freaking doing stuff. Steroids. And I was like, oh, you know, I'm thinking the same thing you are. Like, these guys are gonna freaking just get jacked.

Yeah. Hell yeah.

But they weren't. I was kind of like, really? That. That's like. So to me now, I talked about the risk earlier of getting caught. Now I'm gonna risk getting caught and it's over nothing. So that was another thing. And then. And then there was a guy that was in the regular Navy and he was a freaking good duty. He was from. I want to say he was from American Samoa. Samoa. Super cool guy. We used to hang out and he was jacked. And he was telling me, he was like, no, man. Like, you should do a little bit. He was like saying, you should do. Because that's what he was like, look, man, I just do a little bit. And it, you know, gets me from. From, you know, 205 to 225, bro.

To me, that's a lot.

Yeah, that is a lot. But that what he was saying. Yeah, I just do, you know, and that keeps me like I'm rip. And. But he was trying to convince me he was like one of the early of just like just do a. A small dose and that what he was saying was a small dose. But again, I was just like, yeah, dude, like I'm already to 15. I need to squat more before I risk my whole career. Yeah, that's a big deal to gain 10. That's freaking crazy to me. So, yeah, so that was that.

But it in all, I'll say this too. Back in the back when. When I did that, I was already 240. And the numbers, which I don't know if you're going to go into the video that Derek was referencing, but. And we went to some numbers and I was already doing those numbers. Like that's when I was. Reached my peak. And then I was like, okay, let me take something. Found it in myself to be like, yeah, let me take something to get more, you know. So I did it, whatever. And since then, I'm 22 years old at the time, so since then.

Just going. That's all I did was work valet and lift.

So since then. But I. I got back when I moved to the mainland, I cut all the way to lower. Even before I moved, I cut all the way back down. In fact, I remember being under £200 here on purpose really, just to be more cut up. And just that was the look, you know, look at that guy.

So. So talking about what you Just said the video. Right. So there's the. I forget what the name of it. I think the name of the video is How Much Can Jocko Lift? Which is. And it's Skinny Knees is kind of like what I call that video, which is how this video by Derek starts off. And it has this little clip. And just to give a little context around this clip, the whole way that thing started was me talking about squatting.

Yes.

The reason I came in to work talking about squatting because I was on, on this, on the squat train here.

Well, here's before even that. This is important to know because Derek does gets this wrong in the video. He refers to it as the podcast. Like, we were talking about this on the podcast. This was not the podcast. It wasn't literally. This was the point before the podcast, before we start the podcast. We're just talking trash. And if you watch that whole video in the beginning. Yeah. You're like saying, it's weird. I don't even feel like putting on headphones today. That's how we start the video. Like, this is not the podcast. This is before we're doing. And then we're talking about, oh, this book. And I'm drinking coffee, I'm getting things ready and all this stuff.

Is this one where you say, like, do I look small? Is that the video?

Yep.

Isn't there another video or there was another time where I was talking to you about, like, do you even squat? Or maybe it's the same video.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, because. Okay, the reason I said squat train. And this is something I've talked about before I go in, I go on different paths of working out. Right. Like, for a while I'll just be like trying to do certain types of pull ups or certain numbers of pull ups. Then I'm trying to, you know, do muscle ups. Then I'm trying to do heavy deadlift, then I'm trying to squat, then I'm trying to sprint. Like, I'll go through these little phases just to keep myself entertained. Different challenges. And also, let's face it, you get to a certain point, you kind of reach your genetic capability. Or you, you get close to your genetic capability.

Potential.

That's what we call it, potential. And then you're like, it's going to put, you know, okay, you get to, you get to a deadlift of, you know, 495, and you're deadlifting 495, and you want to get to 500. All of a sudden you got to go, okay, cool, I'm not running. I need to just eat. I need to gain £30. Like, you're going to do some things that are going to compromise other aspects of your life. Your jiu jitsu game, your cardio game, your running. So I have, you know, I go on these different little trains, these different cycles of working out. And at that point, clearly I was just like in a mode where I was trying to just get, get. Get my squat on. So I was front squat, back squat, overhead squat. And I was talking that kind of shit to you.

Yes.

And that's another funny thing is the dynamic of you and me talking. There's a dynamic there, right? And I'm trying to, you know, poke fun at you, make you feel insecure, have fun with the whole situation. That's why the whole video starts off with you saying like, do I look skinny? And I. Without missing a beat, like, without missing a beat, I'm just like, yeah. Are you trying to cut weight right now? Without missing a beat?

Yeah.

Like, this is clearly just me. Like, I can't tell if you gained or lost ten pounds, you know what I mean? But in my mind, I'm like, oh, I got a little insecurity over here. I'm going to pounce on that thing. And that's the same thing. Why? When you're like 405 for 10 and I'm like, that's good. I mean, it's the same thing. I'm kind of like, you know, talking a little bit of shit, making you feel like, oh, damn. Just providing some uncomfort for you.

It was for 12, by the way.

Was it for 12? Yeah, I confirmed it the other day, so. And again, you mentioned this to me the. In the video. I'm like, yeah, I'm a little below there. And then Derek on the video goes, what's he talking? 375 and. And then later in the video.

Oh, it was for 10 on the video? Yeah. Yes, sir.

Later in the video, I'm like, that would really hurt me because I started thinking about it because the conversation went a little bit from me just talking shit and to you into like a serious conversation. I'm like, hey, 375 for 10 would hurt me, right? That being said, I went and checked. I was like, like going through some of my records and I found. Because I do 10 reps for me is not something I would normally do. I do 20 reps and I was looking at some of my old numbers and 305 for 20. It was like something. Something that I have done. 385 for 20. And there's a. That's all. That's a heavy freaking squat. Oh, sorry. 285. What'd I say? 385.

Yeah.

No, I didn't do that.

And here's the thing. This is a good point too, that I think it's important to realize. It's subtle, but it's a big deal. Where we were not. And this is why I mentioned this wasn't part of the podcast. If this was part of the podcast, you better get your numbers right. But we're talking shit.

Just talking shit.

It literally, like, whether that got recorded or didn't get recorded, there is no difference given the importance of the. Of the information that we're going back and forth. Just like literally when I said when I'm like doing this and I'm like, do I look smaller? And you're like, yeah, are you? Couldn't wait. Weight, like all this stuff. You're totally lying. It's like, this is an unofficial off the record conversation. 100%.

So more than that, a shit talking. If you were like, hey, jocko, I want to improve my squat. What should I do? I wouldn't be like, bro, you need to, you know, here. Oh, if you can't do 405 for 10, you're weak. I wouldn't say it. I'd be like, well, where you at right now? Hey, if you're getting this, that's freaking legit. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, so it's a shit talking evolution anyways. But I also say in that. And he plays this part where I'm like, I'm not strong.

Right? I say that. I said I'm not strong. And then we talk about cross. I'm like talking about what the CrossFitters can do. And.

Yeah, so.

There'S. Yeah, so I'm not strong just. Just to make that point. Yeah, I'm not super strong. And even you, you'll be like, I think you're strong. Somebody made fun of that. I think you're strong. And you know why you think I'm strong? Because you do jiu jitsu with me and I have technique in jiu jitsu. And I also have medium twitch muscles. I have medium twitch muscles. So I can hold a lot of pressure for a long time.

Okay, that makes sense.

Not. Not explosive. Would you say I'm explosive?

I would not say you're explosive.

Would you say I'm strong?

Yes, sir. Yes.

That's it. Because I have me. And I remember, I don't quote me on this, but the. The Theory or the discovery of medium twitch muscles came out in like the 90s. And before that I would be a guy, oddly enough, I wouldn't win a long distance race and I also wouldn't win a sprint in my platoon. But if you put a 40 pound or a 60 pound rucksack on me, I would win or I would be in much closer to the front. Right?

Right.

Why is that? Medium twitch not super strong, not super endurance. Somewhere in the middle, which is, which means I don't really have the genetic capability to be snatching double body weight or whatever. Like, that's just, it's very hard for me to do that.

So.

So there you have it. There's some funny he reads the dude, Derek reads a bunch of the little quotes from inside. There's a Reddit thread on this. 100 grams of mil, 100 milligrams of accountability. Efficacious dose of discipline, scoop of getting after it. Ownership deployed HGH for that huge head.

And he says all kinds of funnies. Alpha as composure, bro.

So there's that. So then he talks about the fact that I work out three times a day and then puts the own spin on it of working out hardcore three times a day. Which is a lot different than me saying I work out, I lift, I run or surf and I do jiu jitsu, and I do that every day. That's, that's, that's a, that's an accurate thing. This isn't like, hey, I'm blasting legs and squats in the morning and then I'm doing freaking deadlifts at noon and then I'm doing power cleans in the evening and I'm doing all those for max reps or psycho medcons, I'm not doing that. So that's misleading. And if that's somebody that took me saying, hey, you know, I, I guess it's wrong for me to say I work out three times a day. What would be good is like I exercise three times a day or something like that.

So I feel like I miss. Might have misled Derek on that one. But it's also the title, you know, that's the title of this Reddit thread that he's talking about. It says five hours of sleep a night. And.

Look, I don't need to sleep a lot. That is, that is a fact. It's not even a good fact. It's just the reality of the situation. Look, the other day, like, if I go to bed early, I wake up early, you know, it's not like I go to bed. And if I go to bed at 9, I wake up at 4:30. Or I go to bed at 8 and I wake up at 4:30. I don't. My body doesn't need that much sleep. You know, there's all kinds of little funny stories from when I was in the teams about me not sleeping. I know sleep is good for you. I usually sleep more than five hours a night. I usually go to bed around 10 and I wake up at 4:30. So what is that? That's six and a half hours of sleep, bro. So again, do I sometimes go to bed at 11? Yes, I do. Yes, I do. I do. Sometimes I have a hard time falling asleep, so I don't sleep a lot. I've never slept a lot.

Two out of my four kids don't need a lot of sleep genetically. My wife won't get out of bed until like there's an emergency because she's genetically different. Right. So that's a genetic thing. This isn't. This isn't a chemically induced thing.

But that's rare though. And a lot of people don't know that. It's called fast sleepers. There's like this. It's kind of an anomaly or whatever where. Yeah. You just essentially you go through your cycles of sleep just quicker.

Yeah.

And it's. From what I understand.

Yep. And yeah, so. So the sleep thing, again, if you're taking that as an indication of like, oh, he must be on the sauce, like, that's probably why he got that feeling. Hey, well, if this guy doesn't sleep much. So there's already a couple things that are not accurate. And again, I can understand totally how these conclusions can be made if you kind of look surface. Oh, works out three times a day. Oh, that means he's doing deadlifts, squats and freaking power cleans. No, I'm not doing that. And if I did that, I would be wrecked. Right? I mean, I would be wrecked just like a normal human. And what's the other thing? So there's that. Oh, yeah. And then there's the numbers. If I'm on that path. These are realistic numbers, you know?

Yeah. And it's. It. I think he took the numbers that we were talking about, which were really what they were, were like estimated like predictions, almost like a. They weren't hard and fast numbers. Like even when you were like when I said, if you can do four wheels for ten, that's good. Good. That's literally what I said. And here's the thing. And I was explaining To Kerry too, when we were talking about that might have been Squatty Lewis, Talion suit or.

Both, whatever, you went deep, you went back on witnesses. Squatty Lewis is coming to the stand.

I had to. The thing was on record at this point, you know, so I'm like, shoot, let me confirm, you know, so I'm thinking back to when I was 22 years old squatting hardcore. I think we're doing two or three sessions a week of squats. One high rep, one medium, one low rep. And it was like, and it was a hardcore workout. I was 240 at the time. So I'm thinking, let me base on. When I was really into the numbers on squat. Let me base it on that. Because if you remember in the video I say, what do you weigh? What do you walk around at your weight? And you said 2:30. So I'm thinking, okay, 2:30.

By the way, we had 2:31 this morning.

Okay, there you go. Not considering these three things which I did consider in later on in the video, if you watch it, where first off you're older than 22 years old. Two, you go all the way down. Yeah, I was going parallel squat, which was an issue that we were laughing.

At or whatever, which is also something that you now have adjusted your mindset towards because going in the hole, as we used to call it back in the day, which is below parallel. And that's another thing you just reminded me, Derek in the video says like, hey, if you're just walking around and just bang out 405 like it's nothing at 45 years old, that's, that's an indicator. And I can't do that now. If I was like, hey, you know what? Oh, it's, it's squat season.

Right.

Which squat season for me is in the, is in the kind of spring time, right. Because in the summer I'm getting ready to go hunting.

Yeah, yeah.

In the mountains. Right. At least that's been the last few years. So that means I'm running, I'm rucking. And then that carries into. Well, this particular year I've been doing these step ups with the 45 pound plate. Getting ready to do that Chad 1000.

Which just extended that type of workout a little bit into November. And then all of a sudden we're like getting ready for the winter time in the mountains, which means front squats and plyometrics and stuff. And then in the springtime it's like, oh, you know, it's squat season. So it's misleading again. I'm Sorry if I misled Derek to think, hey, jocko's just going to walk up cold to a squat rack and just put on 405 and just knock it out of the park, you know, 10, 12 reps, whatever.

And it, I think, and I think this is important where when you watch that video and you really watch it and say, okay, what are we saying right here? When I said. And my standard was, was kind of off. Which I realized later in the video. The. Where if I say if you can do 405 for 10, that's good. Good. Right. At 2:30. Because I'm making a reference to a 22 year old me.

Yeah.

At 2:40.

Then after. And then you're like, I think I'm there if not about there. Right? So okay, so when I could. When you said that, I think that's what people latched on to. But when you said that you were like, that was just like estimate. It was obvious you had never done that. You had never. Like that was a projection given what you know you have done. And then you made an estimation and then you're like, no, about there. So no, I probably couldn't get it, but maybe like under there. If I had a good day in squat during squat season, I maybe could get it. That's, that's how what I got from.

And then I said later, I said that would freaking hurt.

Exactly right. The more you think about it.

I thought about it.

Same with me, the same thing. I was like in. I was like 4 or 5. Then I was like, wait a second, I was 22 years old. Yeah. I wasn't going all the way down.

Then I just put it on the record. 405 for 10 is savage all the way down. Yeah, you're. If you're going ask to grass, 4 or 5 for 10 is savage.

Is savage. Exactly right. And then so then right after I was like, well, if you can do three wheels for 10, that's good, that's good.

Yeah.

And then you were like, well there's a big difference.

And there is a big difference.

And I was like, yeah, I get it. I was like, but you're going all the way down. And I'm considering all these things that I'm that come up in my mind like that it's like, bro, that's a bad comparison what I said. And then you started thinking even more about and you're like, you're like 10 would hurt me 10, like kind of you concluded, no, I can't get the 10. Like maybe it seemed like I Could, when I thought about it at first, but after a while, it's like, no, that would hurt me. Like, I couldn't get the 10. And then you're like, oh, I'm not even that strong, or whatever. Then you went through that. But put it this way, there's a difference between really how we said it and what was going on there. There's a difference between that and then you saying, you know what? Yes, I could get the 405 for 10. Or actually not the 405. Right under the 405, I could get that for 10. Officially, like we were saying it on a podcast. There's way there. It's way different. And. And if there was no difference, then you could be like, oh, well, Jocko can or can't. Let's say he. Jocko can't do that. Oh, he just lied on his podcast. That's not true. Yeah, that literally not true. It was a whole different thing. You know, it's kind of like, hey, like, if you asked me how quick I could do a mile right now, and I was like, I haven't run a mile years before time, you know, like, to know how. And then I was like, oh, let me estimate, given what I ran it before last time I ran. And then after, you think about it and all this stuff. And then. Then let's say the next day I ran the mile and I freaking couldn't get it at all. Oh, you lied. You know, kind of a thing. I didn't lie. That's for. That was the conclusion. I made my flimsy conclusion. Not to say your conclusion was flimsy, but I'm saying it was based on other factors rather than the actual numbers.

And one more factor that was based on is me just trying to make you feel weak by being like, yeah, that's not bad.

Yeah. And then you're like. Like right away, when I was like, oh, I did. I was. Whatever I did. And then you were like, how deep? Like, first thing. And even when we were talking about 40 time, you were like, what kind of time you were. I was on a roll.

So we get through with those three sort of misleading things. And again, when I say misleading, I'm saying I'm misleading. It's misleading. If you do a surface study of me and you see, works out three times a day, gets five hours of sleep tonight, and can freaking lift 405 for 10. Squat, ass, the grass, all those things which Derek, you know, heard and correctly heard them, that's what. That's what was being said. And is. Or that's what he saw. And he was like all those things together. This dude's. That's one of the things that made him lean towards. And again to his credit, the whole time he, every time he'd say like, yeah, then he kind of back off a little bit as well.

Be wrong.

There's a bunch of other comments in here that were interesting, probably natty now, but no doubt he was cycling when he was active duty. Totally wrong. Spec ops love gear, meaning guys in special operations all juice or love juice. No, not true. And this is from a quote, former infantry guy that knew lots of Rangers on the stuff. I haven't worked with Rangers enough to do that assessment. But from my perspective, if you're willing to put your military career at risk, there's not a lot of guys that are willing to do that.

This guy says, hell, it was unusual to have guys not on the sauce when I was in Cav scout for five years. Again, maybe these are guys that were going on deployment and there wasn't really strict and there was more people doing juice. I'm not going to, I'm not going to say I don't know. I don't know. I know that when I worked with the army these were not people that were on juice. Like and I'm, and I'm more talking about conventional army forces. These are not guys that are on juice. So yeah, some of that too is like you're in the military and you see, you see a freaking jacked guy that's in the SEAL teams. Guess what the guy in the SEAL teams is doing for his job? Working, lifting, eating correctly, getting better food.

Another guy says same shit as everyone else gets. They were saying that, this guy was saying that like people in special operations get even better steroids. This is how just off the rails this is. Then this guy says same as everyone else gets. We aren't allowed to use gear whatsoever. People do it and everyone knows it. I mean I didn't, didn't know it.

Could it be that because I was end up becoming an officer that people like hid it from me and I didn't know it? I guess you, I guess it could be that way. But I'll tell you man, when you're working out with guys and training with them and all of a sudden they just like get super strong. I would be suspect. I was very rarely suspect.

Yeah.

He talks about what I looked like over the years and here his conclusion is like, dude, the guy has just always been kind of a bigger dude, which is true. I weighed 174. When I showed up to buds, I was 19 years old. I weighed 200 at the end of my. Oh, I gained 15 pounds or whatever. 11 pounds. I graduated buds at 185, got my first platoon, I got up. We were lifting. Our goal was to be bigger. I got up to 200. My first platoon, I got up to, like, 215. My second platoon, I got up to, Like, 220, my third platoon. And, you know, these are, like, ages. I'm getting big. I'm just getting bigger and stronger. It's like, you know, you went from 180 to 240, right? These are prime years to get jacked. When I was competing in Jiu jitsu, now we're talking like, 96, 97, 98. I would always be around 220, and I'd cut down to 213 so I could do the weight category and then the absolute. So that was my weight back then. But again, these are not, you know, crazy numbers. I was at Seal Team 2. Got up to 250 how? Squatting, eating, deadlifting. More eating. And that's. So he kind of says that. He kind of says that. That. Well, you know, he. I forget the terms he uses. There's no, you know, time where he's just, you know, goes from being £128 to £220. There's no time like that. And there. It's true. That was a steady, slow progression as I got older, got bigger, until I reached about 225, 230, which is where I am right now. He couldn't find me talking about trt. And then he found one tweet where the tweet had been deleted, but I had said, haven't tried it. Somebody probably asked me, have you ever done trt?

Do you remember that tweet?

I don't really remember it, but I saw it. He put a clip on there, and it's definitely me. And I'm sure somebody said, hey, have you ever done trt? And I was like, yeah, I've never tried it because there was a tweet below it that said something like, oh, I'd hate to see jock one more. You know, testosterone, something like that. So he figured it out, and. Yes. And then he said that was the only, quote, horse's mouth of me saying anything about trt, which is not that weird because I don't talk about it because I have no experience with it. I don't. That's not something that comes up.

And. And Look, I'm not even against it. I'm 50 years old. If I get to a certain point where I'm like, yeah, you know, I feel like.

My doctor says to me, hey, jocko, this is going to make you perform better and do better, maybe I'd be like, that sounds like a good idea. What I. What I don't like about it is I know that when you do that stuff, you're on it for the rest of your life, which to me is bad. I don't want to be relying on anything I don't want. I would rather be able to make my own testosterone at a lower level than go on, fake to go on other testosterone and then have to be on it for the rest of my life. Like, I don't like that idea. To me, that's sort of a dependency, which I don't like. So.

But.

But again, when I'm 60 and all of a sudden I'm really weak or whatever, I have issues. I'm. You know, I'll be like, hey, guys, I'm going on TRT right now. I want to be stronger, which would be fine.

So that's why maybe he hasn't found a lot about me talking about it. And again, I got friends that do trt, that talk about trt. I've just never done it. If I did, I wouldn't be ashamed of it. I'd be like, hey, this is the situation I was in, and this is what I did, you know? And when you start going down this path, it's like, I mean, if I'm trying to, like, stay young, maybe I should start by dying my hair black, which my hair is gray. I don't give a shit.

Probably a good idea.

Yeah, I don't give a shit. Doesn't matter to me.

You're here to win.

Yeah.

Then he finds a picture of me, or there's a picture of me on, like, the Reddit thing, and it's me and Ted, Tim Kennedy, and we're sitting there talking or whatever, and we just got done with a workout, and there was. There was some funny comments. It says, looking solid, dude. Another guy says, alpha head, bro, sick cranium.

Which is, you know, funny. And somebody says, look at his jawline. He never needed juice. He's a natural granola. He's got gorilla, he's got Shrek genetics. Somebody says, big, not abnormally ripped. Which is totally true. I remember that. That magazine article came out about me in Success magazine, and they said I was a ripped 225 pounds of muscle. And I went and did a fact check publicly about that article and said, I'm not a ripped 225, I'm a well marbled 230, which is the truth.

Somebody said, just by his head, I don't know what's up with my head.

I don't know either.

Somebody said, just by his head, you could tell he's alpha as fuck.

But see, some people are pretty like, these people are just saying, hey, this. If you look at the. They had a picture of me when I'm probably 25 and a picture of me now. And people are like, yeah, look at him when he's 25. He's. His head, his jawline. Cause you know when people do steroids, their jaw gets bigger, their cranium gets. Or their, their brow. Like, what is this? Their forehead or their, their eyebrow bone or whatever that is, gets like bigger and more prominent. This is just the way I look. And I've looked that way since I was, you know, in my 20s, in my early 20s.

And this guy says, not necessarily cranked looking.

Oh, no, this is what, this is what Derek says. Not necessarily. He's. He's like, oh, he's not necessarily cranked looking, but a very fucking built dude, a solid human who would be very tough to move, if that makes any fucking sense. Yes, it does.

He looks mean.

He looks tough as Altito Ortiz's superior older brother, which is. I've, I've trained with Tito. I'm not superior to Tito. Tito is a jacked dude. Like, what did Tito fight at? Tito fight at 205. I was gonna say either 185 or 205. Tito fought at 205. Tito was a freaking monster. Tito, six, two and huge. He's a monster, bro. And so, yeah, I'm just saying I'm not genetically or physically superior to Tito Ortiz. And he, Tito Ortiz also had like the explosive type muscle, right? I have the freaking slow, slow. The medium twitch. The medium twitch. But all these things, I thought that might. That section was kind of leaning towards like, hey, this is just a, kind of a big dude that, that literally eats steak, drinks milk and lifts weights. That's what I, that's what I've been doing for a freaking long time.

Right?

Yeah, this is. I'm not a guy that like, goes on, hey, I'm going to work out for. I'm not that guy. I'm not a guy that goes, hey, I'm going to work out for a little while. And then I'm going to, you know, get into painting, right? No, I've been lifting, you know, whether it's calisthenics, whether it's plyometrics, whether it's squatting, whether it's cleans, whether it's doing pull ups. Like that's all in the. That's all in the freaking. In the element, you know.

Then he goes in this weird tangent into jiu jitsu.

Got it. Got a thing with me and going against Jeff Monson. And Jeff Monson.

He calls him all kinds of. Calls him all kinds of funny names and, And Jeff Monson is an incredible grappler. He's a monstrous guy who's pop positive for steroids before.

I'm not sure I'm.

I shouldn't say that. I'm quite, I'm quite confident that he has utilized steroids. Not. Yeah, so. So he sees me going against him and what's interesting about that video, there's a video of me versus Jeff Monson. Unfortunately, the video is 2 minutes and 30 seconds long. That was a triple overtime match. So I forget what the first. It was like a 7 minutes and then 2 minute, 2 minute, 2 minute overtime and it got edited down. We had a pretty good scrap. And Jeff Monson's a better grappler than me and he's stronger than me and he beat me. Like, that's what happened.

He mentioned how like he's a, he goes, oh, he's a UFC champ. Oh, he goes, no, no, no, he's. He's not a UFC champ. He's just an 80. I don't think he said adjust an ADC or he goes, he's ADCC champ. Kind of like, oh, he's only in ADC. That's more significant, by the way, than US UFC. Exactly. Right. If you're a DCC Abu Dhabi, Abu Dhabi Combat Club champion, that means in grappling, no punch in, no kick in what you guys were doing, he's the best guy in the world, straight up. And if you're the champion, which he.

Was, and I will say the 2 minutes and 30 seconds of that video, I look horrible. Like, I see me now and I'm like, God, I sucked. And that's what we always. The goal is always to be bet, to be able to beat you six months ago. That's always the goal. And that's a 15 year old video. And I look at, I go, God, what kind of shot was that? Oh my God, you look like crap. Why didn't you. This. That's just what it feels like when you watch old videos. Of yourself.

So I was in that tournament, by the way, as my first tournament. Yep.

Yeah, I lost to Jeff Monson.

But what's interesting is he's, he makes this argument that, like, if you're gonna compete, if you're competing in this stuff, which I was.

Why would you not do steroids like everyone's doing? He makes this whole thing about how Jiu Jitsu, there's no testing for steroids. And I don't know if they do now, but back then there sure as hell wasn't any testing for steroids. But he also says, my physique's not that much different and I probably weighed in at that tournament at 220 because I was probably only did heavyweight at that tournament. I probably weighed 220. And he said there's no indication of the deployment of anabolics. And then he. But then he can't, like, he doesn't want to believe that. He says, well, lead you to believe that maybe he's just using it for recovery. It's like that guy wanted me to juice so hard. And then he says, or he's never used it. So again, I think he's a little bit conflicted.

But he says, look, if, if there's, if there's so much juice in the jiu jitsu world, why wouldn't you do it? And here's one thing. I wasn't really a competitor. Yeah, you know, I would if there was a tournament. Well, when I was going to College.

From like 2000, 2003, we competed all the time. And actually before that, when I was at Fabio Santos, man, we. Dean and I competed all the time. We were going to every tournament we could go to. We were competing all the time. But you know, by the time 2000, but once the war started, actually is when I started competing less and less because I wanted to be like ready to go to war. But for him, it didn't make any sense to be competing at that level, which I was competing at a very high level. You know, I did the ADCC trials.

For him and he used the words, he's like, I'm highly skeptical that, that I wouldn't, that joggle wouldn't try it, you know, which again, this whole time I'm active duty in the military, by the way, I have a job. I have a job that I love. I have guys that I'm supposed to be leading and taking care of and if I get shit canned from the teams because I wanted to be a little bit bigger. And by the way, I was Already pretty big. I wasn't like 158. Like, God, I'm. I wish I had more presence. I was freaking 220, 225.

Sure. Also with Jiu Jitsu, I think it's, it's fair to know this where. Just because you compete in Jiu Jitsu doesn't mean you're. You're a competitor pursuing champion level. Like, even if you, you can compete on. Especially back then even, I mean, now it's really like there are competitors and then there's everybody else. No matter if you're a black belt, high level, whatever, you know, So a guy like in your position, you have a job, you're active duty military.

Love Jiu Jitsu.

Loved it. Loved.

But it's not even the number one thing on my priority list.

Nope.

Not even by long shot. No, I mean the teams, bro.

If you, if you wrote out your goals, even, even if you narrowed it down to your Jiu Jitsu goals, it probably wouldn't be to be world champion. It's usually not that. Now there, there's a large group of guys that, that is their goal, then you might start seeing, okay, this guy's on steroids. This guy's in sir because he's pursuing a very specific goal and he has to go hard, as hard as he.

Possibly can, and he's going against guys that are who are testing.

Exactly right. He's going against guys in the same boat. Exactly, exactly right. But the fact is, a lot of us, even high, super high level guys, they're not in that boat until you shift your goal to be champion. Champion. It's just a different type of Jiu Jitsu person.

I was a hobbyist in Jiu Jitsu.

Yeah.

That was my hobby. I was very passionate about my hobby. And believe me, you're not going. I'm not going to the competition saying, I don't care if I win or lose. No, I'm freaking trying to win.

Yeah.

But I'm not missing a block of training with my platoon because I'm gonna go and train more. That wasn't happening.

Yeah, exactly.

It wasn't even close.

I'm just saying if you're not in the, in the Jiu Jitsu world, you might not know the nuance. You know, you might not know the difference between. Even when you say hobbyist, that kind of, from the outside might sound like, oh, you just do it on the weekends and whatever. Like, you can be a hardcore hobbyist.

Hobbyist is every day it's physically possible to get it done.

Oh, heck, yeah. And. And then you have guys who are just competitors where it's like, I have Jiu Jitsu, and I'm gonna do as good as I can possibly do in Jiu Jitsu, hopefully become champion, and everything else is secondary. That's like, no matter how good or junk they are, that's like. That's the two pursuits, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

So he goes through the Jiu Jitsu thing, and again, that, to him, makes him lean towards. I must have at least tried it so I could compete with these guys. But like you just said, not trying to win the world championships. I'm trying to win, but I'm not. That's not the number one priority of my life. And then he goes on this thing about some guy named Dave Bilzerian.

Dan Bilzer.

Okay? So this guy apparently went to BUDS at some point, and he. This guy who went to Buds said he did steroids and said a bunch of people. A lot of quote. A lot of people did it. Which, again, this is weird. This is a. This guy just went to BUDS and he got. Didn't make it. So you don't even know what kind of person this is. I don't know why this. He's even brought into the fold here other than, you know, he's like, oh, this guy. Dave Bulzerian said he did it. It's like, okay, well, this guy didn't. Wasn't a seal, made it, didn't make it through training. He did say it seems that he. You could get kicked out. This guy. This guy that went to BUDS mentioned that, oh, you would get kicked out if you got caught. So right there. What kind of freaking. You know, that's like. Like right there. That's all you need to know. Anybody that knows me, like, oh, you want to be in the SEAL teams? And there's a risk. You get kicked out.

Yeah.

For doing steroids. By the way, when I was going through SEAL training, I was passing the evolutions, you know, it wasn't like, hey, got a. I got a freaking 2720 on the run. I want to get that down to 26, 40. And I'm willing to risk getting kicked out of the Navy to shave 20 seconds off my run time or 40 seconds. You're never gonna do that. I would never do that. It's a stupid thing to do. So again. And then. And then the same guy says that a. Said that a third of the people were juicing, which, again, that's not possible. I could understand if more people than I think are on steroids. I can understand that. But to say one third of people in special operations are on steroid, that is not. That is. That cannot be true because I would have known a lot of them.

Yeah.

I spent my entire adult life in special operations.

Yeah. It seems like you would know more so than Dan Bilzerian. And you don't know Bazarian that much, but he's kind of known for just his whole thing being just real wishy washy, real sus, as they say, as far as his stories and claims go check.

Derek says that when I was in training, he goes on this rain about how when I was in training it was less scrutinized. Like steroids were less scrutinized. And I was like, I. And he starts bringing up Arnold Schwarzenegger. I was like, bro, like, I didn't go through. I didn't go through SEAL training in the freaking 70s when. When steroids weren't even. You know, we're just on the open market, so I don't know what that point was. And I guess he. He tied some connection. I guess there was some big steroid Olympic thing that got a lot of scrutiny brought on it. But again, I didn't really. I don't really know much about that. I. If anyone in my actual SEAL training class did stories, I'd be totally shocked. No, I never even heard anyone talk about it at all. So then he goes on this thing about how my life is about stress resiliency and grit through adversity and lack of sleep. And he's even talking about lack of food, fasting sometimes. And then he says, whilst. And I like that he used this word, he says, whilst maintaining a high level of performance. That's what sort of my life is like. And he says that it's like.

That. That I would benefit highly from exogenous androgens, which. Yeah. So he gets this thing about how, you know, I'm all about being strong but going through adversity and having stress resilience. And. And he says, would this guy would benefit highly from exogenous androgens? Obviously. Pretty telling, in my opinion. That's what he says. So he's like, this guy, like, is all about the stress and getting through this stuff. That's pretty telling in my opinion. That's what he says. So again, it's not a. It's not a. It's not a. It's one of those things that makes him lean a little bit more in that direction. And then he goes on this thing about how I was going against sauce fiends back in their primes. Oh, talking about Munson and not using when even the Gracies were using. Shit. And he talks about the fact that Hoist Gracie tested positive for Anabolic, which I. I think Hoist tested positive for ana, for steroids when he was like.

In the UFC or something, Right?

I don't know. But no, I think it was. I think it was later. I think it was one of these sort of older Hoist fights.

Right, Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so he said. So then Derek says, it's hard to imagine this guy's not dabbled before to go into. To go into matches with literal houses and not thought maybe I should get a bit of help. It's obviously crossed his mind a couple times, I would imagine. And again, oddly enough, getting kicked out of the SEAL teams, all I needed to hear was, you know, that one story when I was younger about, hey, they take all the batches, they test them, and if you pop. If they. If they find anyone of those batch test positive, they test them all individually. You'll get kicked out. Cool. Done. So this wasn't this. This wasn't this temptation that was on the back of my, you know, on my shoulder all the time. You should get a little bit stronger. And by the way, I wasn't getting out muscled on the jiu jitsu mats. Monson wasn't tossing me around.

Yeah.

No. At no time did I feel like a little bit more strength would make me better. I was to be contended with also.

Too, with the steroids in jiu jitsu. A lot of times, sure, the guys are a little bit bigger, a little bit stronger, but like, how you kind of alluded to that's less of a factor. Like the fact the real factor with steroids guy versus no steroids guy is the guy can just turn up the pace and keep it going and wear out the guy way quicker and where the guy's just less effective because there's way less energy more so than. And he wasn't doing that either. Like, he didn't, like, turn up the pace where you couldn't keep up. That wasn't going on either. It was. It was just simply a jiu jitsu match that he ended up winning, not. Not by a lot, like, you know, in the overtime or whatever. But it was. It was clearly not a match between steroids versus not steroids.

It wasn't that he didn't beat me because of strength. He beat. Now, if I'd have been ten times or three times stronger than Him, Sure. But he beat me because he's a better grappler than me. He. He wrestled. He's. He's the ADCC check champion of the world. That's why I got beat.

And let's see, he. He goes. He goes back to the. He goes back to the. The skinny knees video.

Sure.

And starts kind of breaking that down a little bit. He says that I'm 5 11, 230, which is what we kind of discuss on that. And then he says this interesting thing. He says. He says that I, jocko, was built like this. The. The whole time. The entirety of his historical data represents. When he looks at me and sees pictures of me when I'm younger, I always kind of look this way. He says there's no massive aberration in body composition. Always been a husky, mild, house of a dude, which is, I would say, a fact. Factually accurate statement.

Goes. Goes. We already talked about the 405 for 10. He kind of does a little bit of a deeper dive though that. And we kind of already just talked through that. That's a talking combined with an assessment.

Estimation.

An estimation. And that was that.

Well, he also says, he says, I can't imagine this is legit. When he says, I haven't tried it. I would probably call on it so many times. He would have benefited from it so much more than 99% of other humans. It's hard to believe you would just grit through it with your fucking natural crashed hormones, which ultimately will be with the amount of stress you are undergoing, with the amount of sheer environmental factors that he has imposed upon himself.

So he's saying that just the life I've lived has been stressful and hard on my mental status, hard on my hormones. And my hormones are all probably jacked up. So why would. Why would I try and grit through this with my own. What does he call it? Natural crashed hormones. And.

What is. What is this one? Yeah, so. So that's what he's made. That's what it makes him think. And he thinks there's just no way that it makes sense for me to not do that.

He. Then he finds a video of me shooting an arrow.

He says he's like, oh, yeah, and here's. Here's a video of him with no shirt on. And it's. He's shooting an arrow with his alpha head.

So that was kind of fun. Funny. Some. He reads through some more comments that I'm a genetic outlier, that it's trt, one person says, sauced out of his mind.

Another guy says he's 50. Definitely some exonogist exit. How do you say that?

Exogenous.

Exogenous compounds in play. Someone else's steroids. Take Jocko. Someone says, this Jocko wouldn't risk his career. That's an accurate statement. That's the most.

That probably is the root for me of never doing steroids or any other drugs, at least for the 20 years that I was in the SEAL teams. I'm not risking that. And then I get out and what am I doing? Am I getting beat up on the jujitsu, Matt?

No.

Am I weak? No. Am I having a hard time getting out of bed? No. I feel freaking great. So why am I all of a sudden thinking, you know, you and I. You and I were training hardcore. Were you ever. Were you ever thinking yourself, well, you know, I just kind of power out of this. If Jocko gets. You know what I mean? I didn't feel, oh, I better get stronger so I can do better against Echo.

So that's kind of.

Kind of what he says. So I think this is my.

He says. He says something like his, that odds are.

He. Derek ends up saying that he thinks I'm, you know, used steroids in the past and he only used the word dabbles. But and is on TRT right now. I think he says, good. And I. And I think the reason why he. I think he was leaning towards. I think throughout the video, he kept saying things like, well, you know, he's always been this big and he's not ripped. He's saying all these things that kind of make him think. No, but then I think that.

That the people that he interacts with all the time, like, who's his friends and his group. It didn't even make sense to him that I would compete in jiu jitsu and not do steroids or at least consider them. That didn't even make sense to him. So for him to look at me and look at the training that I do and the fact that I'm 50 years old and think, yeah, this guy's got to be on TRT or whatever, or is likely on trt. I think that's just the group of people that he talks to that he's around. That's what his experience has been. And it's just. It's just a separate world than mine. And that's what he thought. And the fact of the matter is I, Yeah, I'm not. I've never. I've never done any drugs. And you know what? I'm on mulk I'm on joint warfare. I'm on steak.

Yeah.

I mean, elk has been delivered to the house. The elk is going down.

Yeah.

So you had your. Like, the record. So. And because this was a significant part, too, about the claim of the numbers of squatting and whatever. So consider this. So now you know. Right. Because you went back to your actual records, you did 305 for 20. Yeah. Right. So I guess the question is, And I'm not saying for you to answer, I'm saying for us to kind of consider, as far as claims go, if you can do. If someone, anyone, anybody, no matter how big or small, if they can do three or five full rep squats for 20, do you think they could do 405 for 10?

You know, there's a little close to it. You know, there's a little charts that they make for this kind of thing.

Yeah.

And I don't know what the. How that will work out.

Those aren't that accurate, though, because you need a certain type of muscle performance.

I don't know. I don't know.

Yeah, so that's. Of course not. Neither do I. No, we don't. But if you estimate, you know, like, especially back when I used to do. I never really got into consistent 20 reps for any exercise.

405 is heavy.

I would say 375 is in the game.

You think?

I think. I think that's.

Yeah. Yep.

But even that's not. I wouldn't bet money on it.

Yeah.

I wouldn't bet a lot of money on it.

Right.

You know?

Yeah. But if you're. Let's say if me and you were like, you know what? We're gonna do this. We're not gonna film. Maybe we are. We will film. I don't know, whatever. And we're gonna be like, hey, we're gonna do today, we're gonna do our PR for 10. What are you gonna go for? You got one shot. What are you gonna go for? And if you think I'm putting on 405, because I think I can get, you know, like, you're not gonna put on 450 if you don't think you can get it. If you think.

Get it and you say, I think I can get that, then yeah, that's within the claim of not being, like, BS or whatever.

Yeah.

It's an estimation.

Not crazy.

Yeah, it's not crazy. It's not crazy.

Right on. All right. Well, that's it.

Speaking of Mulk speaking to Joint warfare, speaking to Krill Oil, speaking of Discipline, jockofuel.com We talked a lot about Jiu Jitsu. You should train Jiu Jitsu.

Yes, sir.

Not about strength. Strength is not.

It's not out of the equation. It's in the equation, but it's not. The total equation technique is a more powerful part of the equation.

You made a good point, though, about, like, the circles that you kind of hang with, the people that you hang around, the community you're in or whatever, where.

Like, if you're used to seeing people on steroids or whatever, it starts to become more and more. Like, it feels more likely that of course they are. Of course they are. You can just take one or two little things. Even if it's kind out of context. It's like, okay, I'm not going to be surprised if that person is. But it's the same on the other side, too. Where. And I was like this when I was young, like, especially with. With other drugs like cocaine. I never tried cocaine, ever. When I was living in Hawaii. I never even seen cocaine before I came to the mainland. And still really. I haven't really seen that much cocaine. One time I saw a guy and I worked at the nightclub, by the way, but it just. In my brain, I hadn't been around. So I'm thinking, of course no one's here doing cocaine. That's crazy. That's stuff you see in the movies. One time I saw a guy get out of his car and he had, like, cocaine on his nose still. And I was, like, baffled, like, oh, my gosh, it's such a big deal. Meanwhile, my friends like, oh, yeah, I won't, like, what's the big deal? Kind of a thing. And I'm like, okay. And it kind of dawns on you if you're not used to it or if you're really used to it. Yeah. It's just a foregone conclusion. Like, okay, yeah, okay. It's almost surprising if you don't see it kind of a thing. Yeah. So that makes. That totally makes sense.

Yeah. And even now that you bring this up, even in the SEAL teams, like I mentioned, it was a. I had a sister platoon one time that was some of the guys in there that had a clique of guys in there that were into that, that did juice. And so if one of my friends would have been like, bro, I'm going to go on the sauce, I'd be. I'd be very surprised by that.

Yeah.

But if one of those guys was going on the sauce, I think, oh, well, that's their crew. So and it's the same thing with trt, right? There's a lot of people that go on to trt. A lot of them. And I know a lot of them.

Yeah.

And. And so to think, oh, well, if you're a. If that guy's already assuming that a bunch of the people that I hang around with are on trt, well, why wouldn't I be on TRT too? And, well, the fact of the matter is I'm not.

And it goes for lifting weights. Like, the numbers that guys put up, like, okay, so in Hawaii, people are just bigger. Just nor. And it's part of the culture, by the way. But I've seen guys, you know, bench five wheels and. And a lot of them, too. Like, four, 405 was like, if you could do 405, you're like, yeah, okay, you can. They can do four or five. It's good. But everyone's seen that before.

And in the seal teams, there's not too many guys that number one bench press very much bench press very often. And certainly anyone that's bench pressing five plates in the seal teams is a freaking super strong dude. Everyone knows that, dude. Yeah, everyone goes, oh, dude, he can bench freaking 500. Everybody knows that.

Yeah.

It's so rare. So, yeah, same thing. If someone says, oh, yeah, that Guy can bench 500, and it's. It's talking about a guy in a platoon, that would be a lot harder for me to believe unless I knew the guy.

Right. And what if you've never seen and think about who I was hanging with from the year 1995 all the way up until 2001 when I left.

Jacked football players.

Exactly right. These big Samoans and stuff and whatever. I'm thinking back to the numbers. My friend Jeff Ulbricht, who's like, he played for the 49ers. He was like, he's one of my friends, and he was a big, strong guy. And I remember, like, later on, after he moved away or whatever, and after I lived here for a while, and I remember thinking back, wait, Jeff ran a 4, 5. He was 255 pounds and 6 1. That's huge. That's an animal.

Say those again.

Around a 4 4, 5, 4 0, which is 4, 4, 5. Yes, sir.

A 4, 5, 40. And how much did he weigh?

255.

This is a mutant. Yeah.

And he's 6 1. Here's the thing. When I remember Jeff, yeah, he was big and strong and an animal or whatever, but not that. When I'm thinking about that Now I'm thinking that's an animal. But when you're in that community, when guys are like 63305 rolling around and when they hit, you just fucking die for three days, you know, and that's the norm. And guys go in the weight room and, like, they don't even warm up and they put two wheels on there and they're just like awkwardly doing it. Like they've never benched before, but they can do it because they're just so natural. And that's kind of the norm. Compare that to if you've never seen anyone bench four or five before. You see four plates on the thing, you're like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe that guy did that.

Like.

Yeah, give me a better explanation to how that's possible.

You know, I had. I had a CBD chief that was with me in Ramadi, and he was jerked. Monster guy. His name was Biggie.

That makes sense, right? Completely.

But yeah, he was. He was throwing up 315 on the bench. Honestly, it looked like if I put. If I had the bar. Yeah, like that's what he looked like jacking315 for his warm up.

Yeah.

So. And. And because again, in the SEAL teams, guys aren't doing that kind of weight guys can't get. And everybody. That rumor or that word spread, bro. Biggie was freaking benching 405 for reps. Everyone shocked.

Derek was inquiring kind of, how much you bench? Do you remember your best bench?

350 was like my best bench ever. And my bench, My bench is weak. That was always the weakest thing that I had.

Yeah, your squat is your gym. What's your best exercise? Deadlift? Squat?

I don't know, man.

I benched 405. I started. I talked to Squatty Lewis. He said that he remembers me doing more than 405. I feel like I did more than 405. I remember specifically doing 405 for the first time. Did 31512 times. My best 285 on the incline. 28515 times. Yeah, that was my best.

Yeah. For me, 3, 5, 50 was like a goal. Yeah, it was. Hey, this is what I'm working towards. But I was always, never good at bench. I was always had stronger pull muscles. Right. Deadlift or whatever. I was always seemed stronger in that area.

Yeah. But my shoulder press was always my best one.

Check. All right, dude, that's it. That's it for the DMZ. Appreciate y' all hanging out here in the DMZ with the demilitarized zone.

Appreciate it, y'. All. Check it out. JockoFuel.com/USA.com Just go to Jocko.com and get after it. We'll talk to y' all later out.