Living Between Worlds #3.6 - "OK, now what?"

Foreign. It's July 20th. This is Living between worlds. This is, I think, our 19th or 20th conversation over the past three years about the mystery of how do we live in these times. Let me throw, you know, we started with, with two quotes from two very wise people. If I can get my screens to behave themselves here. 120 years ago, Antonio Gramsci, the Italian revolutionary, said, the old world is dying and the new world struggles to be born. Now is the time of monsters. And looking into the same space and perhaps with a bit more of an optimistic spirit, Arundhati Roy wrote, and I know many of you know this quote. Another world is not only possible. She is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing. And so here we are. In between that, I'm not going to recount the events of the last weeks and months. You know them all too well. It's a time of great turmoil, not just in the world, but in our hearts and spirits. It's complicated, deeply uncertain. How do we live? What do we do? What do we do? How do we speak? Where do we focus our actions?

I woke.

I woke the morning of the Supreme Court EPA decision a few weeks ago at the end of an incredible week of Supreme Court action, beginning with Roe versus Wade being overturned, then the New York City, New York State gun control laws being overturned with exactly the reverse logic the court used on Roe. Lovely. And some other things. And then the EPA decision, which effectively, you know, is attempting to dismantle the ability of the federal government not only to regulate greenhouse gases, but to regulate anything. Except, of course, who you choose to love and how you choose to have sex. Those will still be regulated because, because states rights or freedom or something like that. So. But I was really struck. I woke up that morning and looked at the news. Not with my hair on fire, not running around screaming in rage or in agony, but with a sense of calm and resolution. I thought, isn't this interesting? You know, I, I, I give some honor in that to my decades of martial arts training, where I learned not only in my mind but in my body that fear is not the best response to danger. It's immobilizing. And there are ways to cultivate capacities in our bodies and in our reflexes to respond differently under threat and uncertainty. Saved my life on the highway many times. I'm reminded of Atul Gawande's remarkable book Checklists. Gawande is a physician and surgeon and writer and sometime philosopher. Encourage you to read his work. In Checklist, he tells the story of a of an airliner whose engines started going out at 30,000ft. And just a short version of it without going into. There was a lot of forensic behind its studies of many airline crashes to produce checklists and protocols of what to do when certain things happen, you know, at 600 miles an hour, five miles above the earth. And what they did at that point was the pilot turned to the co pilot and who and started asking. He was already pulling out the manual. These were days when we had big loose leaf binders in cockpits and the co pilot went through the key, the engines out, what's the altitude? Where are we? Turned to page 183 and saw the procedure of what do you do now? The casual observer would think, oh, my God, how can you take the time to do that when we're in an emergency? The plane is going to plummet to Earth, 185 people are going to die. How can you take the time to look at protocols? And it turns out that if you look across dozens and dozens of airline accidents, that's exactly the right thing to do, is to take the time to follow the tested and proven procedures, separate from the terror of the moment and do what needs to be done. One of the challenges that we have now is that we don't have a manual, you know, and we're facing some crises that are, you know, somewhat familiar in human history and some that are unprecedented. And so there's not, you know, there's not a page we can go to that will tell us exactly what to do. But there is something about the process of taking a breath and focusing and being calm and not surrendering. I hear, I hear from some people say, oh, it's all over. Whether they're talking about climate or democracy or, you name it, it's all over. There's nothing to be done. Nelson Mandela, whose anniversary of his birth was this week, said there were many dark moments when my faith in humanity was sorely tested, but I would not and could not give myself up to despair. That way lies defeat and death. So I've pinned that. I take some comfort in that. I, I, I treasure the reminder of that from this man who managed to accumulate, Whether in his 27 years in prison or before and after, a depth of wisdom that was remarkable and a guidance for us all. So I'd like to do something a little bit different in the call today. I'd like to pose some questions and invite you to, first of all, reflect on them. Let's take some time in silence first, to just reflect on These and then some time to speak to them. And I'd like to ask you, in contrast, in our prior calls, people have raised hands and I've called them people who are eager to speak. I'd like to invite everybody to speak today. Not to put you on the spot, if you don't want to, that's fine. But I want to open the space for that to happen. So I'd like to invite those of us who tend to speak a lot to speak less, to take some time to let the prior speaker's words land in you before you speak. We'll start with volunteers. Raise your hand using the raise hand button under reactions at the bottom. And I'll take people in order, more or less. If that quiets down, I may call on you. Please feel free to decline if you'd like to not. But in my experience, sometimes people have things to say and just aren't raising their hands. And I know I treasure all of you on the perspectives that you bring and the experience you bring in the world. So if you'll permit me that indulgence, I will do that. Are you seeing slides at the moment? No. Okay, let's do that. Let's go to a slide. And let's share screen. There we go. Seeing a slide now. Yay. Good. So some questions I invite you to reflect on. Where is your attention and where's your mood these days? Where's your focus? Where you know, what are you looking at? Where are you heading? What do you see as the core moves for you to be making? And how have those been changing over the last weeks and months? If they have, you know, for me, they have been. Let's see what they are for you. So reflect on those. And when you're ready to speak, I'd like to ask you to speak to. What conversations are you having these days, whether with yourself, because we all do that, or with other people. And let's start that as the point of conversation for all of us together. So let's take a minute or two first, And whenever you're moved to speak, raise your hand. David, I see your hand, but I'm going to hold on you. I want to get some new voices.

First.

Joe Redston, thank you for staying up late. And then Doc hall, then Deborah Lindsey, and then David will come back to you. Joe, we need to go off mute. Thanks. Joe, welcome. So I think what's been going through my mind, as in case my accent hasn't given it away, as somebody from the UK who can no longer call himself a European you know, I'm in a country that recently decided it was better off on its own. I find myself as I watch what's been happening in the States from afar, and I would. I think we have the same problem, same challenge here as well. So please don't think I'm pointing a finger here and going, what the heck? But I'm wondering whether, whether the Declaration of Independence is. Is actually the problem is do we collectively need a declaration of interdependence of some description? So what might that look like? I have no. I have no answer to that. But I don't know.

That's.

That that's been something. That's something that I've been reflecting on both, you know, over here and, as I say, and watching some of the things over there as well. Thank you. The great Richard Feynman said that I'd rather have questions that can't be answered and answers that can't be questioned. So thank you for that. Doc hall, then. Deborah.

I have one discussion group myself, and I participate in several. And so that's one whole arena of conversations. And then I can't get around much anymore. The conversations I have locally are very different. Sort of illustrates a huge split. By the way, I'm in Texas, not very far from Uvalde, and Uvalde could well have happened in a town where I live. But I ran for city council twice, fortunately lost. And that did attract a little attention with the theme that the government here needs to spend a lot less time and money trying to develop economic growth and a lot more preparing for everybody to survive in case of disaster. And with the heat this summer, we're having a limited form of that kind of disaster. And true to form, the city is not really prepared for stage four or five of water restrictions. They should have, but they never did. Anyway, in my other conversations, I think the consensus is building that the system of living that we have in advanced economies today cannot be saved. And more than that, it probably is going to soon crash of its own weight. It can't keep going. Then what? And sorry to say, most of the thinking that's worked with us for some time is that we have to change us, learn to think as if we were a part of nature, because we are. And we got away from that over the centuries. And so South Africa is called Ubuntu, and it runs so deep that it affects the language. Don't say there are no words for me and you. It's we. I am part of you, you are part of me. Same with a tree. And so that is so deep, I'm not sure we can, in least in this part of Texas, that people can ever make that transition. And I'll shut up, Doc.

Thank you, Deborah.

Thank you, Gail.

It's a pleasure to have so attention, deep self care. I hope everybody's doing that because the mood, I think, is just utter frustration and like on such a deep, incredibly deep level that trying to find ways to soothe our souls is big in my list right now. My focus is on how do I maximize myself, how do I. I'm actually in transition right now, so my next steps are really pivotal. Like I could really do something to make a change.

And it's finding those opportunities.

And, and then the conversations that we're having, the people aren't talking about it. I mean, my daughters are talking about what Roe v. Wade means to them. There's a lot of conversations happening in the late 20s, early 30s group about themselves and how they're going to protect themselves. But in my peer group, people are not talking. They're like, oh, we're on summer vacation. Isn't it lovely?

Yes, it's a bit hot out. It's very frustrating.

And so the conversation that I'm having with myself, given that is very panicky. And I'm really glad to be with people that I can speak with who are really looking at these issues further because it feels like those around me are not having any conversations.

So thank you.

Thank you, Deborah. Glad to have you here. David Schoenbrunn, what conversations are you having, whether with yourself or with others?

I just had a conversation this morning about climate change in which I was clear that I have no hope for the future that preceded the Supreme Court decision. I didn't follow that. Now, interestingly, my mood is rather balanced. It's been dark for quite a while, but recently I feel rather balanced and reasonably good. And so there's a dichotomy between a future that is catastrophic and being okay right now that is a little crazy making. But I'm living that place. And I had an interesting recognition of why I attend this group. And the reason is, as I said, I have completely lost hope in anything that I would consider part of my vision occurring here on Earth.

But.

It'S, it's, it keeps me alive to some degree to be around people that still see things in that same light of vision and hope. And I'm not here to splash water on it, but there is, you know, life force in it that I appreciate.

Thank you. Thank you, David. Leslie alden and then Ms. Radcliffe.

Thanks, Gil. What I'm hearing from everyone is this duality that David mentioned, the Declaration of Interdependence and Ubuntu and balancing the current political global life that we're experiencing and recognizing the continuum. So I've been acknowledging the reality of the now and trying to see it in that continuum, knowing that the world and our species have been through enormous changes over millennia, many millennia, and will in the future too, in some way. So I'm not dwelling on the reality of our current politics very much recognizing it, but in terms of that, I'm pivoting from the work I do on climate to the fall election. I see grassroots and grass tops and everything in the middle. And the election is extraordinarily important to begin to turn the tide. I don't think it's too late. I don't ever think it's too late. As long as we're doing something, I think with the idea of taking action and having solutions and being aware of solutions, that that does give, not only us, but the general public that's aware about climate, very aware at this point, hope. And I think hope is really essential.

I think that.

Gil, the quote that you gave is. Well, all of them, but the most recent one about being able to move forward is really essential. But the conversations I'm having are interesting. Someone who volunteers with me and is a good friend is a. She's a data analyst. You know, the brain. Right. She's also a poet and she's an artist. And I didn't realize that she had this interest in art. And it's a background for me as well. And we were talking about both our work that's different and art. And she said she was writing on the fairy and had her sketchbook and was just with a pencil drawing lines on the page. And she said, I start each line with intentionality. And that was just, you know, a light bulb moment, a great reminder of that. Even if it's just a pencil line, there's setting that intention of what you're doing and being very, very focused and very patient about what you're trying to do. So I'm holding on to her, her experience and trying to absorb that on almost a daily or hourly or momentary basis. Yeah. So it's solutions, focus and balancing the conversations about what's happening now and the quotidian, you know, like, what did you have for breakfast? Kind of quotidian stuff. The stuff, as one person said.

You.

Know, just sort of the normal conversations of life and trying to balance our life in the now and the greater stuff happening outside of us. So that's where I am right now, trying to hold on to that.

Thank you for that. Two thoughts there, you know, one is, I remember a conversation, gosh, long time ago, 1980s, during the nuclear freeze movement. Someone asked Richard Baker Roshi, who was the abbot of Zen center in San Francisco, who he thought was the most effective peace activist in the world at that time. And he said, with very little hesitation, he said Thich Nhat Thanh, the Buddhist monk and poet and scholar. Many of you know the work. And Thich Nhat Thanh, at that point in his life, was spending six months, six months out of the year in silence retreat in the south of France. Not busy doing stuff. Six months sitting, six months doing. And was, you know, to this man's assessment, enormously effective. So the TDN and taking care of ourselves and being able to be whole as we go out into the work seems to me to be deeply important, and it's a place where I'm putting more and more attention. The. The story about your friend the artist is a pebble that just. Just, you know, dropped into the pond of my mind and is rippling out because I. I imagine from different artists I know do things different ways. But I imagine that she set pencil to page with an intention to start a line. But then what happened is what happened. It's not necessarily what she intended at the start. You know, you start. You start the. The sketch, and then the sketch emerges. And so maybe that's some of how it is for us, is that we need to start and then see where we go and then start again and start again. Thank you, Leslie. Mitch Radcliffe. Shel Horowitz.

So I actually am feeling hopeful. And the reason is humanity has a tendency to clip the wheels off the plane on the mountaintop before actually landing that plane. And clearly, for a variety of reasons, the collapse of democracy in many nations, the clear and indisputable evidence around us in the weather. Here in the Pacific Northwest, the growing season is off by three weeks, and I have plants that are simply failing to thrive. These are things that I can talk to people about. I'm always listening for opportunities to raise the question, well, what do you think about what's going on in Europe right now with that heat dome? We had one last year. Doesn't that seem unusual? And begin to have a conversation about the impact of climate change and then ask the question, and so what do.

You think we ought to do about it?

This has helped me have discussions with people who traditionally are, they're not deniers, but they're not into the idea that we really need to change. And they're starting to acknowledge it and so encouraging that recognition. And it could even be as simple as, well, you know, you had almond milk on your breakfast. Well, have you? Do you understand what's going on with almond trees right now? Because of the drought in California, they're being plowed down so people can sell the water to cities. Those kinds of things wake people up to the opportunity to make changes. And so that's the way that I've gone about this. And I really am determined to foster that dialogue. So that's the way I have chosen to address what I think is the most dire situation in the last two or 300 years. But it's clear to me the time for revolution is nigh. And that revolution will be a bottom up one rather than a top down one.

Thank you, Mitch. Kjell Horowitz and then Wendy Brower. I saw you in the chat. I don't see you on screen, but hopefully you're here to go next after Shell.

Okay, so a few things that may not seem to hold together, but actually from the 30,000 foot view, I think they do. One is the importance of celebrating victories. And I will just read one headline I see on the New York Times website, Biden drops plan to name anti abortion lawyer backed by McConnell as judge. That didn't happen by accident. That had to do with tons of pressure. I must have gotten, I don't know, 18 different requests to sign petitions on that in a very short time. So we need to elevate and celebrate these victories because people are sinking in despair. There's one newsletter I read usually comes out five times a week by Robert Hubbell. H U B B E L L I'll put the link in the chat when done talking. And he is a sort of centrist Biden supporter, optimist who's always cheerleading people to go out and see that yes, you can have an impact, yes you can make a difference, and yes, we're making some progress. At the same time, he's totally willing to chastise people like Merrick Garland for inaction. So I just also days ago got back from, from 11 days in mostly rural Quebec and they think we're nuts. I had a lot of conversations about what's going on in the US Right now. And they are like, what planet are these people on? It was bad enough when Trump got in, but now Trump is out and you're still as a country acting so very trumpy and the nuances of the makeup of the Supreme Court and other stuff, they don't necessarily follow as closely. But I've also been a real big believer in dialogue and like Mitch, seizing opportunities when they present themselves to bring the conversation deeper. That's true on my Facebook feed. It's true in my rather limited participation in local Braver Angels, Left Right dialogue group. And one thing that I do to keep myself in a positive space is that every day I chronicle the things I'm grateful for and make a public post about it on Facebook. And the day we got back from Canada, actually, the house sitter had left the apartment and the cat in somewhat disarray and I was upset. And the way I got out of being upset that night was to write my daily gratitude post for all the good things that had happened to me before I got home that day. And it's made me a better person because I now go around all day looking for things to be grateful for and photographing them so I remember what they were when I write it, either late in the night or the following morning. So I persist in being hopeful despite a lot of evidence that that's not really accurate. But there's also plenty of evidence that it is. And Gil, you know, as somebody who's worked at the margins of ideas in the green space for decades, you've seen how things that used to be very woo woo are now pretty mainstream and how much progress we've made, at least in penetrating consciousness and how that's starting to be in action. Although I do wonder if Amory Lovins had been as good a marketer as an engineer, would we have back around 1990 started building nothing but net positive or net zero homes as he did in 1984?

Yeah, Shel, thank you. My sense that Amory's a pretty damn good marketer too, and not that he single handedly turned the tide, but we're in a very different world than when he published Clean Energy paths in what, 1976 soft energy? Pass. I was, I was on a call earlier this morning with a, a friend who moved to Houston and is working with the oil and gas industry from a sustainability perspective. And, you know, courageous or foolhardy, I don't know what it is, but one of the, one of the things that we noted is that, you know, everybody in Houston at the heart of the energy industry is talking energy transition. Now, it may mean different things to them than it means to you, but 10 years ago, everybody was not talking energy transition and now everybody's talking energy transition. So, you know, there's an example of that. You know, hope may be hard to come by, but I'm struck by what you're saying, that gratitude is maybe one of the pathways, because it kind of reorients what we pay attention to. I had a singing coach years ago named Sapporo Sloin, voice like an angel. And at the end of every practice session, we'd be in a group of 10 or so people. She'd pull out a big glass bowl filled with polished stones, a hundred of them, and say, this is the gratitude bowl. And we're going to go around the circle and everybody's going to take out a stone and say something that they're grateful for and then put it in another bowl. And there were 10 of us. And so we each got to be grateful for 10 things. The first one or two were pretty easy to access. The next ones and the 8th and 9th and 10th took some real quieting and reflection and sometimes seeking to find something. But it was a practice. It was not an exercise. It was a practice. It was developing capacity. Felicia told us after we did it the first time, that she does the entire bowl herself every day. 100 things to be grateful for. This is a tradition among some of the traditions of Orthodox Jews who have a goal to say 100 blessings, 100 gratitudes every day. And it's fascinating to see how it reorients us to how we encounter the world. So thank you for offering.

If I could just very quickly respond, I could have easily gone and done a Grumpitude journal every day. And I'm aware everybody does those shells. Yeah, well, Andy Rooney actually got paid for it. I'm very glad that I didn't choose that path because I do think the mindset makes a difference and that I'm approaching the day looking for things to be grateful for makes me have a better life than if I were looking for things to be annoyed with.

It molds you. Yeah. Thank you, Wendy Brower. And then next, Norman Gilroy.

Hi, there.

Hey.

I'm at the gym. That's just an example of my energy transition. Can you hear me?

Yeah.

No.

Yes.

Oh, you can? So I'll make it snappy. But back in the fall, I got to go to Scotland for a month around the climate conference, and I have to say, the energy that was there has really kept me going. And so many good things have happened from things that started there. I'm thrilled on the global level, and this is especially with Green Map and locally, well, among other things, I broke my shoulder back in the fall. I have a new. I'm bionic now and I'm in the gym. This is part of the trade off. I rented a summer house. My partner said only if we join a gym. So this is my sixth time in a gym and in a thousand years. And it's actually not bad, especially when it's 100 out like it is today. I wish the energy was being used for something. But I will say I was back in the city on Friday. A project called the Dutch Kills Loop. We had a press conference and we had everybody there, borough president, state level, congressional level, city council level. And we're looking at one corner of a fallen in bulkhead. And I can put the article up maybe. But then we had another event the next day. More than about 100 people showed up to clean another corner of it. People are really engaged around regeneration here. And also this Friday, this is in.

New York City, folks, that she's talking about.

Yes, yes, yes, sorry, Long Island City, but in my own neighborhood on the Lower east side. I've been on a team for a decade trying to get the city to return a rec center to the community. Part of the reason I'm involved is because it's high and dry, it's outside the flood zone, whereas the rest of Lower Manhattan isn't. And it's also in the epicenter of lots of problems right now. And just this week we had a great article in the New York Times which I think is really going to help turn the tide with the city about what our intentions are and the need. So I'm thrilled about that. And lastly, I don't know if you guys have heard about East river park, but it's a, it's a 60 or so acre park on the Lower east side that's becoming a bulkhead, a levy, and that included so far they've cut down 700 mature trees in our community. And rather than only protest, I have also been involved in different ways, including putting out real time air quality sensors like you guys have out in California. The purple Airs have been up for almost for over a year now. And we've also got handheld devices that we loan people or take people on walks so they can see what they're exposed to on a daily basis. So it's very eye opening right now. And I just want to say that, you know, there was a declaration of Interdependency in 1992, and it was by the AIA International Architects. I begged the IDSA. That was the product designers to also do one and they made some very small changes. I sometimes talk to people about that year, 1995 or so. What would have happened if we all turned to climate change instead of the PC? How ubiquitous would our, our work be now? Thank you so much, everybody.

Thank you. Wendy, keep peddling. What if we, what if we do that now? There you go. Yes, thank you. Norman Gilroy and Trudy next.

Norman had to take a moment to unmute. Am I.

Of course. We hear you.

Well, Gil, you and I have known each other for 40 years, I guess off and on in California and come from that beginning point I've been in. I've listened into every one of these conversations since they started and I've never spoken and it's been interesting to me to sort of ask myself why and a little bit was beginning. They were very intellectual, which I'm. Which I am, but not in quite the same way and tended to be not at the, in the slot that I was functioning in. So I was learning a lot. So I just shut up and listened and found a great deal to apply. I'm a land use planner and involved in community planning. I've done that internationally for 50 years and I'm finding that the ideas that are exchanged in groups like this have application in present day circumstances. Although a lot of what I'm doing is sort of, I guess you might say, redesigning the Titanic before she hits the, the iceberg. It's all to do with present day development and how that can be done better. I must say that one of the things that I'm noticing that gives me hope is that the people who are making the decisions are listening to new ideas more than they used to. It's a time, I think, when we've been forced to open our minds in ways that we might not otherwise have done and we're seeing an opening for new opportunities, some of which are born right here in this meeting, these meetings to actually happen both through legislative action in a couple of cases, even at that level, and certainly at local levels. So from that point of view, I think there's great hope in the present. Now what we do about the future is a whole other thing. And I appreciated having Joe speak first because he's from the uk, which is where I came from a long time ago, before finding nirvana in California, if you don't mind. And we've done work internationally ever since. And it isn't about California, it isn't even about America. It's about, really about the whole world, people, system, ecosystem, and people, system. My work has all been at the interface between human development and the environment. And we see that now happening on a global scale, as it was before, but even more noticeably at a global scale. And I think getting something to happen at that level is the challenge.

So, Norman, let me ask you this. Let me come back to the opening question. What's shifting in the conversations that you're having these days?

Well, what I mentioned was, what's shifting is the ability to listen. I think that the ability to listen among the people that I need to talk to. And if you like, convince at various times about improvements in the way we do things, that. That. That has changed tremendously in the last five years, three years, I would say.

Do you have a hypothesis?

Never have done before.

Do you have a hypothesis as to why that's changing?

I think because the entire context in which we live has changed.

Okay, thank you.

I know your work, and I know what you did in places like Palo Alto and before. And there I saw you as a hero in the sense that you yourself made yourself the change agent. And then you found other change agents within that entity to both train and to encourage to follow the lines that you began. I think that's changed. I think there's. I think those change agents are emerging in a different way.

Yeah. You know, Norman, thank you. I think in the situation like that, sometimes all I did was give people permission, tell them that, like, hey, what you're thinking about, that's a good idea. It makes sense. Keep going.

Yeah.

Sometimes that was the most important thing I would do. Thank you. Norman Treaty Heller and James Boyle are next.

Can you hear me?

Yes.

Okay. Well, I had one conversation this week that kept me up worrying for a few nights. I live in a very beautiful place in Colorado next to open space, and we were evacuated twice when the wildfires were here around the new year. And my next door neighbor is selling her condominium, and somebody came to look at it, and I was out working in the garden, and the prospective buyer asked me if I had fire insurance, if I was able to get fire insurance. I am. But of course, that may not continue and kind of gave me a shock. And I found inspiration at a Citizens Climate lobby picnic that I went to. And I just. These are people that are dedicated to having bipartisan conversations. They have a very. They're very seasoned. They've been at it for a long time, and they're very calm and well informed. And I signed up to do what they call tabling, which is you sit at a table at A place, someplace like a farmer's market and chat with people who come by about the climate situation. So.

And what are, what are you hearing in those conversations with the folks who come by?

Well, I haven't done it yet.

Okay, let us know next time. Okay?

Yeah, we'll do.

Good. Thank you, Trudy, thanks for doing that. James Boyle and then Alistair next.

Thanks, Gil. And thank you for assembling the group and all the great work you've been doing for 50 years. Thank you to everybody else on this call who spoke spent so much time working for a more just and sustainable world after the European Union's decision, you know, categorizing natural gas as a sustainable fuel and then the EPA's reversal of EPA versus Massachusetts and then really mansions decision to finally kill America's climate strategy. You know, the conversations that we've, that we've just been having, you know, has come to the. Has come more into my daily life. So the last week there's been, you know, 10 conversations like what we're hearing here. I wonder though, about taking. Whether there's an opportunity to separate feelings, you know, from what we understand to be our character and to avoid indulging in despair, the feeling of despair because that's not who we really are or who we really could be. Even if the several speakers who have said they see no hope for the global climate system and you know, global civil society, even if that's true, you know, as human beings we've been evolved for eons to deal with mortal risk to everyone we know and ourselves. And so we're perfectly prepared to deal with something that I do think is very unlikely to kill us, literally the people on this phone, you know, on a probabilistic basis over the next 10, 20, 30 years. So it seems to me to really deny our interdependence to each other that Joe spoke about at the offset if we indulge in our feelings which are understandable of despair, instead of recognizing that all good action on climate, even if the entire system doesn't survive, is going to reduce some human suffering and conversely, all bad action on climate is going to increase human suffering. So, you know, so those of us who aren't disabled, you know, mentally or physically, you know, it's incumbent upon us to, to create the lives and the impact that we best can, as best we can, recognizing there's profound tragedy, you know, about as there always has been and there's a new sort of tragedy about, in this entire global system collapse. But we're definitely been evolved for eons to. To cope with outrageous tragedy. And so if we really have that, and I think we might, it's time to get going in an ever more constructive way as best we can until our. Until our ability fails.

James, thank you. Yeah, we've, you know, we've been on a long journey and tragedy's been a part of it all the way along. And, you know, whether you think of the history of the modern world or of the known human history or the history that David Graeburn and David Winslow lay out on the dawn of everything. Which takes us back, what, 30 to 50,000 years. Yeah, it's, you know, it's got its ups and downs all the way through, and there have been plenty of opportunities for people to surrender. What came to mind for me as you were talking was the London blitz in the 1940s, when it would have been entirely sensible to say, we've lost, it's over, let's give in. And people didn't, and they stuck it out. Can I wrestle with you a little bit about despair? I'm going to say there's nothing wrong with feelings of despair. And I'm saying feelings, actually, you distinguish it. You said wallowing in despair. So feelings of. I feel feelings of despair several times a week at least. But I don't stay, do I? But I don't stay there. I'd probably be an idiot if I didn't. Of like, holy, there's bad stuff happening here. It's dangerous, it's deeply unpredictable and scary. But I'll distinguish between feelings of despair that are fleeting and a mood of despair that, you know, that envelops one and that one lives in. Robert Dunham, one of my teachers, says that, you know, the mood you inhabit is what's there before your feet hit the ground when you wake up in the morning. Sort of the, you know, the kind of characteristic emotional complex that you live into. And I may have talked about this before, but my. My friend and teacher, Fernando Flores, suggests that moods are intertangled with assessments, that if you. If you interrogate a mood, you'll find that there's an assessment that's living within it, an interpretation of what's going on in the world. And then you have an opportunity to interrogate the assessment and say, okay, is this assessment true, accurate, realistic, grounded? Is a habitual assessment that I've always made since I was a kid, or is it based on what I'm seeing now that opens up some degrees of freedom? If it's real and it's ground, and I think it you know, I think it's relevant. I can then say, well, are there opportunities here? Are there pathways for action or things I could do to shift what's giving rise to the assessment. So I very quickly moved from despair, overwhelm, surrender to engagement with my assessment of a situation in the world that may have some openings in it. And so that's part of the dance that I'm in these days of, you know, of listening, observing my own mood, listening for the moods of the people I'm talking with, looking at what are the assessments or column interpretations that are within that. Because we all do that. We all, we are interpretation making people. We can't not do that. And one of the openings here we have found is to notice the difference between assertions, statements that this is true, and assessments. This is my interpretation about something that's going on. And knowing the difference between those is enormously powerful because you can't really debate about interpretations. You can discuss interpretations, you can unravel and go where they take you in a conversation and in a relationship, which is what a lot of you were talking about. I put the word conversation up there. But it's about relationships with other people, right?

Yeah, I think there's another paradox involved. I really like your statement about examine the assessment behind the mood. And you can, you can examine, but.

It'S about relationships with other people. Right.

And I think there's an. Yeah, I think there's another paradox involved. I really like your statement about examine the assessment behind the mood. And you can, you can examine behind the assessment. So I'm the grandson of uneducated immigrants on both the Italian and Irish side. And my immigrant families have incredible optimism. And I find that it's paradoxically, it's really grounded in a ripping fatalism. You know, I mean like they expect the world to be horrible and so the good they can create is magnificent. Meanwhile, I married a wonderful woman who is from a 15th generation family and, and they sort of equate and I'll say this intelligence with pessimism. You know, like if you're not pessimistic, you're not paying enough attention. And that's because they actually have an expectation of a positive expectation of good outcomes and then they're disappointed from those. And so it's like, what's your base assumption? And then when this gets existential for people, are we really entitled to have the majority of people agree with us? Or more broadly, are we really entitled to have a thriving world? Yeah, you know, I'm not entirely sure, you know, but, you know, right now it's not thriving. But, but, but I don't even know that we're entitled to that. It's right and good, but we may not be entitled to it.

I don't know that we're entitled to anything other than what we make of it.

Exactly.

The great thing about, about, you know, digging in and looking at my assessments and yours and those, the people I'm talking with is that we find that we see the world in different ways. And then I can either say, you bloody fool, break it, Say, gosh, that's fascinating. How is it you came to that assessment? How are you seeing things that gave you that insight? I might actually learn something from somebody who I profoundly disagree with and vice versa. James, thank you for that. Let's go. Thank you. Take a moment. Let's go to. Let's go to. Thank you. Take a moment. Yeah, let's go to. Alice there and then Kimberly up next. Alice there and then Kimberly up next. Hi. Yeah, so.

I'm certainly not doing very much myself. Yeah, my attention is sort of personal development.

Yeah, so.

I'm certainly not doing very much myself. Yeah, my attention is sort of on personal development. My mood. Well, I don't really. When I think about the, you know, I don't know, climate change, I don't have much hope. Yeah, my family, I know that some people that I know don't seem to have any sense of climate. My mood. Well, I don't really. When I think about the, you know, I don't know, climate change, I don't have a much hope. Yeah, my family, I know that emergency, you know, they're still consuming unnecessary gadgets and. Yeah, conversations. I was thinking of hosting some conversations with local people hesitating on that, but, yeah, I think that might be helpful.

Alistair, tell us where local is for you.

Some people that I know don't seem to have any sense of climate. Oh, I'm in Malta, a small island in the Mediterranean.

Thank you.

Emergency. You know, they're still consuming unnecessary gadgets and. Yeah, conversations. I was thinking of hosting some conversations with local people and, yeah. Talking about not doing much. I also realized I haven't really done anything to help refugees from Ukraine or Yemen or Syria. And I know that I know personally a Catholic priest who's 91 years old and overworked and short on sleep, and he's managed to do something to help at least one or two families from Ukraine hesitating on that. But, yeah, I think that might be helpful.

Alistair, tell us where local is for you.

Oh, I'm in Malta, a small island in the Mediterranean.

Yeah, thank you. And.

Yeah. Talking about. Yeah. And he still runs a center, you know, where he much household as I haven't really done anything to help refugees from Ukraine or Yemen or Syria. And I know that I know personally a Catholic priest who's 91 years old and overworked and short on sleep and he's managed to do something to help at least one or two families from Ukraine. Yeah. And he still runs a center, you know, where he hosts 50 immigrants from African immigrants.

Yeah.

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, yeah, this feels a bit awkward, you know, but the. Malta is also the. I guess one of the only countries in the world where there is no abortion at all. Legal abortion and of course happens illegally.

But.

Yeah.

And.

I, I wish I had a strong opinion one way or the other. I don't. There are people who I respect who, who are pro choice people who I respect who are or against that, you know, it would say pro life.

Yeah.

So that's there. And yeah, one other thing about conversations, not conversation really, but I've been those 50 immigrants from African immigrants.

Yeah.

This feels a bit awkward. But Malta is also, I guess one of the only countries in.