Living Between Worlds 4 1 — Trust, Mood, Change

You. Welcome to Living Between Worlds. This is January 18, 2023. I'm Gil Friend. I'm CEO of Natural Logic, founder and Managing Director of Critical Path Capital, and leadership coach at Trim Tab for Trim Tabs. I'm your host for this series, joined by Ken Homer of Collaborative Conversations as my co host. This is the fourth year of these conversations. I began Living between worlds in April of 2020, in the early days of the COVID pandemic, out of an instinct that we were entering a bigger disruption than a global pandemic. Out of an instinct there was something connecting the global public health crisis of COVID and the global climate crisis, and an instinct about the urgency and successes and failures of the global response to both of these crises. An instinct that this was calling into consciousness something about the weirdness of living between worlds. As Antonio Gramsci said 100 years ago, the old world is dying, but the new world is not yet here. Between is the time of monsters. And monsters I hear, not in the sense of big, scaly, scary lizardy things, but monsters in the sense of primal forces that we don't understand, something below the surface that is bubbling and surging and threatening, promising to transform our world in ways we don't perceive or grasp. A more hopeful, perhaps sweeter perspective on the same phenomenon is Arundhati Roy's famous quote that a new world is coming on a quiet day. I can hear her breathing. So the question that I've been posing in these monthly dialogues, monthly conversations, is how can we live between worlds in this time with grace and dignity and power, with an effective engagement in the uncertainty, with an ability to navigate the uncertainty and contribute productively, creatively, serenely to the things that concern us, the things that we care about. I want to pick up from something we were talking about in our last call in December. We were talking about trust. Ken was sharing with us a story out of Gladwell's Talking with Strangers, where he made the assertion with an example of one of the most senior and exceptional people in the United States spook system who was totally bamboozled by a Soviet double agent. And the conclusion that Gladwell came to is that we are not very good at all about determining who we can trust and who we can't. Humans just don't have that capacity skillfully to do that. Gladwell's conclusion was, well, let's default to trust because things will work better if we assume trust and deal with the times when it breaks, rather than assume distrust and the inability to trust people and live from that space. Ken Did I summarize that fairly accurately?

Yeah. The one thing I would add is that obviously when there's instances where trust has been broken repeatedly, you don't want to keep defaulting to trust. You don't want to. You're not opening yourself up here. But if you're working with someone for the first time, default to trust.

Start there.

Thanks. In the broader social realm of humans, we've developed collaborative systems and social systems for providing trust, ensuring trust, protecting trust. Trust. Think about regulatory apparatus. Meat inspections, safety regulations so that you know that the car that you buy. And then, as I step back, shifted to ambitious and fierce, determined, radical hope. Hope in the face of unreasonable odds, hope in the face of unpredictable difficulties. But a commitment to drive something forward in how we do this work. And in that spirit, I think about the kind of moves that people are making in this age. There are people who say, burn it all down. People on the left and people on the right say, burn it all down. Irredeemably screwed, hopeless. Take it down. There are people who are pushing on the system from the outside. There are people who are trying to shift the system from the inside. There are people who are hunkering down. Hunkering down in bunkers. I got mine. The hell with the rest of you. People are hunkering down in communities, in trying, you know, extinction, rebellion, transition, preparation for a dark time. And in that spirit, I came across recently a piece of writing from Yanis Varoufakis. Varoufakis was the minister of finance in Greece during a recent socialist government. Didn't last long. Got clobbered by the EU and attempting to do what they do. But he's been a touchstone for me as a really intelligent and eloquent analyst of the issues that we're dealing with. In a piece he wrote recently, he said there's sort of three approaches that he's seeing in the world. Three theories of change. One is a revolutionary change, looking at complete revolution in social and ecological systems. Not likely to happen in this world, he would say. Second is the we're doomed perspective. It's all too late. It's going down. There's nothing to be done. We will see massive decline in human populations and everything else. And he, like I, finds that perspective immoral, as well as unreasonably certain about a future that's not certain. And the third is to build the new world, build new worlds in the shell of the old. Take the things that we know how to do, the things that we know work, whether we're talking about you know, renewable energy, regenerative agriculture, walkable communities, cooperative business ownership, a long list of the things that many of you have been involved in for long parts of your life and build them and expose people to them, and give people a chance to inhabit them and ask the question of, wow, I like this. Why isn't there more of it? Why are systems in the way? Why are political structures blocking this? Why are economic structures in the way of it? And in that way building a fervor for a deeper kind of change through experience, through the tangible inhabiting of new worlds, even at a small scale, rather than a theoretical construct of what should happen if these things could be done today? He writes, to benefit humanity without some sociological revolution, why on earth, people will ask, why on earth are the authorities not doing them? And so that's the basis for the political dimension of this work. So with that as an introduction, let me ask you, what does this provoke for you and, and more broadly, what's your mood these days in this world of tumult and change? And we'll talk about that a bit more in the breakouts. Let's start an open session for the next 20 or so or 25 minutes perhaps. What's your mood these days? How is your mood affected by events in the world, events in your life? How's your mood affected by the assessments that you make about these events? And how are the assessments that you make affected by your mood? Shel Horowitz. Good afternoon, sir.

Good afternoon. Happy Secular New Year. Yeah, so I just had a conversation with a very, very, very smart guide, Danielle Turon, in Madrid yesterday, and we were talking, among other things, about how cursed me, I should have invited him to these calls.

How you get a little bit louder, Shel.

I'll move closer. Is this better?

Yes. Okay.

How so much of what we have fought for, we have actually gotten accomplished within our lifetimes. There's been huge progress in many, many areas. But at the same time, the forces of react are not holding still. Some of them sit in places like the US Supreme Court and in Congress. And you mentioned the turning back of wokeness that some people get involved with and all of that frustration. And you see in things like the horrible results of the Israeli election that we've still got a lot more work to do. I am the eternal optimist. I am always looking for the good side. And sometimes, of course, it's hard to find, but I usually manage. And one of the things I do to stay sane is every day I write about the things I'm grateful for that day and post them on Facebook. Many times this call shows up in that narrative, and it's public, and I feel like that keeps me focused on appreciating the many blessings in my life and in the world.

Thank you for that. The gratitude exercise is a remarkable thing. I shared this with some of you, I think, before. I had a singing coach years ago who choir master. And we would gather together to sing at her home, and after practice, she would bring out a beautiful wooden bowl of 100 polished stones and explain to us that at the end of the day for her, at the end of every day, she would count through a hundred things that she was grateful for, which seemed staggeringly impossible. And she invited us, 10 of us in the group, to each do it 10 times, to kind of cycle through the stones 10 times and think of 10 things we were grateful for. And it was fascinating that 10 was hard at first, and it took practice to just start to quiet and notice the big things and the small things that we were grateful for. And. And as you built the capacity to be thankful for 10 things each day, you could see the possibility of expanding that awareness and finding more of that kind of gratitude to cultivate.

Yes.

Shifting a mood. Yeah, Shel, thank you. Brad, let's go on to you, and we'll come back to David in a minute.

Sure.

Let me just lower my hand. So a little piggyback on shell. I also, at the end of every day, do write down 10 things I'm grateful for. Been doing it for years. Sometimes it's more difficult than others. Some days it just goes. I don't post it in public because if I write ice cream that I had that night or dark chocolate, it seems a little trivial. So I don't share it with others. I just do it for myself. But you were asking about Mood and how we're doing, and. And I'm going to share this. I've only said this to a couple of people, very close friends, because there's a little bit of, like, survivor guilt here. I am doing great. My life is better now than it probably has ever been. I'm 70. I just celebrated my 72nd birthday. I'm healthy. I'm making a lot of money. I've got fantastic friends. Covid, I hate to say this, but it actually boosted my business by forcing me to use Zoom. I now have clients all over the world, whereas before I was confined just to the city I lived in and the people I could meet personally. So as far as Mood and all that, I'm In a great mood. And it's embarrassing sometimes to say that, which is why I haven't shared it publicly with anybody. Just my wife and a couple of friends. Yeah. So I'm embarrassed, but I'm saying it anyway. There may be others that feel the same, that are holding back, but I think that when people say, God, things are so bad, and I say, no, they're not so bad. I got this and that and then and I'm traveling, I'm going places. And you can do that too. And sometimes it does inspire people to stop looking at all the newspaper headlines and all the crap on TV and just think about your economy, your space. What can I do daily to make my life and everybody else's life better? And that's what I focus on.

Gotcha. Thank you. David, back to you.

Yeah.

As far as mood goes, I've been looking forward to the new year and it's coming through for me.

I've kind of taken some time off into last year, which makes this time.

Of year fresh for me and it's been really good.

I take a little bit from what Shel was saying and a little bit.

From what Brad was saying in that.

I'm pretty positive. In the United States we have lots of challenges environmentally, but in other parts of the world there's really a lot of stuff, good, positive stuff going on. There's lots of things to be concerned about, but there's also so many, so much opportunity. And I'm just looking forward to the new year and what's coming along.

Well, I can jump in with something. So I listen to this conversation 30 some odd years ago. In his book on chaos, James Glick tells the story of these professors at mit. There was one of them had a weather simulator and he only had 12 elements in this weather simulator. These guys liked to bet. So they would come in and they'd see who could bet on what the weather would be as far out as possible. They discovered that no one could accurately predict more than three days out. And that's with only 12 interacting elements. So whenever I find myself backed up against the wall by and the overwhelm of all the terrible things going on, it looks like it's getting really bad. I remember if you can't predict three days out with 12 elements, it's really impossible to predict what's going to happen with all the inert or older.

And it's very hard to tell a young person that you can benefit from being quiet because speaking especially in this heavily mediated environment we're in is Valued in some way. Not consistently. There's all sorts of complexity in that statement. But I think a practice of building reflection, of. Of getting people to stop and ask a question before they make a statement is the simplest first step. That could be. That could be something that is integrated into elementary school curriculum and middle school curriculum and high school curriculum pretty easily. Problem is, I don't think anybody would trust the process because everybody is at war. Well, as Ken often reminds us, we is a dangerous word. Yeah, there's a lot of different things at different scales. You know, you remind me of a speech I once heard from the great farm organizer Merle Hansen. Heather, I think you knew him who said that the good Lord gave us two ears and one mouth, that we might listen twice as much as we speak. Which is the kind of homespun wisdom I always liked. For me, the more modern version of that is noticing my tendency to have an opinion about what somebody else says while they're still offering it, fitting it into what I already know, to where I've already been, to what opinions I already have, instead of saying, even when it's something that sounds outrageous to me of. Instead of saying, you idiot or how could you think that way? Is to say, that's really interesting. That's on. It's new to my experience. Why do you think that? Where'd that come from? And journalists in particular tend to do that to come to a judgment before the party they're interviewing even finishes. And it often ends up in my podcast. I try to avoid doing this, but just asking that open ended question instead of saying you're wrong is the hardest thing for humans. As far as I can tell, there's something very powerful in the mood of curiosity and inquiry and discovery and wondering what might be your. Sandra, are you waving at us?

Yes, sorry. Thank you, Gail. Gosh, I haven't talked with you in a while and I wasn't going to say a word, but I'm so compelled to. To react to some of these comments, if I may. First of all, I loved your ideas about trust. I wrote with Dr. Lawrence Jones a paper on how to rebuild trust in a broken world, and we're now writing a book about that topic. But I think it is sort of the glue of our society and if we can become more trustworthy and more trusting, it will make a difference. Number two, what all of you said about listening. One of the approaches we used was called question storming, where you just ask questions, you're not allowed to jump to answers. It is life changing. What We've been doing as I say, we're writing a book about it now. But anyway, I love the spirit of this call, Gil, and I think you have a small army here. I think probably all of us have different groups that we meet with, whether virtually or in person. I see the negativity and I think to myself, gosh, whether I'm happy or not, that's not the issue. The issue is can we pass it forward? Can we be the optimist? Can we get people to think optimistically, even amidst difficult things? And I'm sure we've all had difficult experiences in life. If you're over 50, that's probably the case. Anyway. I think the passing it on is the key. And, Gil, I think what you're doing with this group, you know, who's ever in line to, you know, to keep that positivity? I mean, of course things are difficult. If the world was, you know, all flowers and, you know, chocolate, we wouldn't have this discussion probably ever. So kudos to you and I just wanted to pass those ideas on. Thank you, Sandra.

Thanks very much. I'd love to see the paper that you referenced and if you'd like to share it in the chat with others, feel free. Sure.

It's on my website. Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you, Alan Haber. And.

And then we need to move up.

We'll go to breakouts. So, Alan, if you keep it succinct, that would be great.

Well, that's tough for me, Gil. Well, a lot of thoughts in this last part of the discussion. I appreciate the optimism. I think that. Have a trust. Where it broke down in the movement was when COINTELPRO began. And there was a significant injection of conversation that really had a phony agenda. And there was a way that we learn to be cautious about what people said, whether they were talking from their own heart or were there for a purpose beyond what appeared in the human connection.

This was a deliberate strategic injection of distrust into account.

Yeah. So how that was cointelpro, but that was also hiding what is the truth about the reality we have passed through and are in. And that truth is. And people disagree about it. So then we don't talk about it. So we don't really quite know where we are all at. But there was in this country a coup d' Etat in November 29, 1963, where the military forces essentially in the CIA essentially took control of the government and required that there be a culture of deception within our government. And that has grown and grown and growing. We are in a system where the war mentality is dominant. And that has to be in some sense recognized. There's a political structure operating that whatever it says has purposes that are leading humanity, ourselves into the abyss. And if we don't see that the big events, 911 and so on are part of this.

Alan, I'm going to stop you for a second and ask to shift your frame briefly, rather than laying out the proof case for why things are as screwed up as they are. Tell us about how you are oriented in your life in face of that briefly.

Well, I think that this militarized structure is trying to take away the resources of the people. And I work on reclaiming the commons in the center of Ann Arbor and seeing that that one little spot is actually can be the fulcrum with social energy to shift the whole perspective of the world away from the private property and the government control to the commonwealth and people's full spectrum cooperation rather than full spectrum domination. We have to create a peace system. That's the alternative. The war system and the Pentagon and all the liars that it supports.

Alan, thank you. Beautiful example of Giannis's option number three, creating the new world in the shell of the old commons, right in the middle of a city. What an idea. Thank you, Alan, and everyone else who's spoken and those who haven't spoken. And Ken, let me turn it over to you to take us into breakouts.

Okay, thank you all. Lovely conversation, very interesting points raised, lots to think about. So we want to go a little deeper. And Gil and I talking last week about sort of just doing a little bit of reflection on, you know, we've come up on four years and it's the fourth year that these calls have been gone. So have some putting something in the chat here. What's changed for you in your mood and your commitments, your actions as a result of our conversations, either today or as part of this series? Hope that was an interesting conversation for you all. And for our next round, we have some new questions. So putting in the chat, why do you or will you come back to these conversations and where would you like to see them go this year? This is to help Gil and I sort of get a sense of what the group wants. We don't want to just be saying we're going to dictate. We really want to get some feedback from folks. So why do you or will you come back for these conversations and where would you like them to go this year? Brad, you're raring to go here. Why don't we hear from you first.

So.

So I'm combining an idea that Alan Haber brought up and Janine Bloomfield. And Alan talked about having a monthly theme, and Janine talked more about taking action. So here's my suggestion. Each month we have a theme. Like next month, Black History Month, the month after International Women's Day in March. So next month it could all be about racism and how that impacts everything we've been talking about. And so that would be the theme. And we'd leave it up to you, Gil, and you, Ken, to come up with that theme. But those are just two suggestions right off the top of my head. Black History Month and International Women's Day. And then incorporating Janine is at the end of the session. Everybody that wants to. It's not mandatory, of course, would type into the chat one action step that they're going to take as a result of that month's conversation. So it's not something already on your to do list, not something you've already committed to, but something new that was provoked by the conversation both in the breakout rooms and in the larger group. And you would actually commit to that and make it public and put it in the chat so that everybody knows what everybody else is doing. And maybe we spend a couple of minutes at the next month talking about what we did and what that was like. Like, I volunteered at this new organization that David Waldron mentioned or I read a book that George brought up or whatever it is, so that. That I'm very excited. I want you. It's more than a suggestion. It's a request. I'm changing it from a suggestion to a request. Gil will understand. So I'm requesting that you consider that as the way we might move forward theme. And everybody comes up with an action step at the end of the meeting.

I like it.

I got that you're excited, Brad, because I saw your yellow zoom hand waving in the air. I don't know how you made that happen, but it's quite impressive.

George.

Yeah. One thing that I'm thinking about is that if we had more information about all of the participants and what they're doing. Right. You might be able to mesh better.

Right.

So somebody is working on land use problems. There might be somebody else who's doing something that's similar to that. All right. Or if somebody is working on. On. On homeless problems, there might be somebody.

Else who's working on a different aspect.

Of that and use the resources among us, the things that we're already doing, to see if others can help us amplify them. So that's one suggestion.

Thank you for that, George. To some extent people have been using the chat in that way, but it's, it's not structured, it's informal structured. But a number of you have told me that you made connections outside these calls, in some cases developed some joint activities together. So that's great. And I hear your suggestion to maybe look at something that's a more structured way of doing that. Thank you. Looks like Kirk is next. So my group, we talked about a few things and are what we, I.

Think wanted to focus on wasn't so.

Much a what but a how. How do we create community? How do we build community with a capital C? How do we learn to talk with those who have different assessments than we have and how to. How do we expand our influence and maybe even our own ability or willingness to be influenced? But how do we, how do we do these things as opposed to what do we do? Thank you.

Jump in, Gil, Go ahead. Peter Wanted to amplify what was just said about connecting a little bit more closely in another Zoom group that I meet in. It's a fairly eclectic group as we are, but engaged in many important activities, important projects. And for me, the, the chat was never enough to, to connect. You know, it was just too much of a chance and, and not, not structured enough. As you'd mentioned, we created a, a Google Drive Doc. And for those that were willing, it's a, you know, it's just a simple thing to do. You create a spreadsheet, you, you can add your, your email or phone number if you want, you can have that be an option. But you in a, in a simple way say here's the name of the project and here's what we're doing and maybe a want and a need listed there. It's just something that each month could be built and, and expanded. And it would be a way for us to identify partners in the work that we're doing that are that, that I wouldn't read any other way.

Right.

Peter, would you and George be willing to put that Google Doc together?

Easy to do.

You got both, got the ideas, maybe some different ways to do it. Put it together on a Google Google sheet or something like that. Get that to me and then I'll share it out to everybody. And that way it's there and structured. It's also voluntary. Nobody has to put their names in if they don't want to. But it's available for everybody who wants to do that. It's a great idea.

I mean, I, I would suggest that it comes from, from one of the organizers and, and you know, so that Gil, you or Ken would be the.

It'll come from us because we've got, we've got the whole list that way. If it's just the chat, it's only the people who are here put their email in the chat. But we'll get it out, buddy, as an open invitation. We can do that. So. But let me ask you guys to give it the initial structure.

Sure.

What information do we want to gather and what, what invitations or requests do you want to make of people? Great, thank you.

That would be part of the spreadsheet.

Thank you. Go to Bill. Your next step. I put my contact information in the chat. If anyone wants to connect or see what the heck I've been up to. Thank you. Good.

Thank you.

So anything else you want to share about why, why you're here, why you keep coming back to these. If you're, you know, most of you have been here before and are coming back, some are new and have said you're going to come back again. What's, what's, what's attracting you to this, what's valuable to you and how would you like to see us move this next year?

Brad? Gotta unmute, Fred.

There we go. Hear me? Okay.

You're good?

Good. Okay. Having a community of people who.

Are.

Present both with heart and mind and spirit, I'm. I'm assuming is extremely valuable to me. Having a community of people who have that and are proactively choosing to seek the truth, who are thinking critically, who are listening with an open mind is another layer of the cake. Also extremely valuable. My sense is that in addition to that, we are, many of us at least, paying attention to sort of intersecting systemic crises and also paying attention to visionary solutions that can synthesize it so that we don't just solve one crisis, we can find solutions that actually solve multiple crises. Anyway, having a community in which I can hear about, talk about, learn new information, share the latest of what I've been finding helps break a kind of isolation that I've felt in the midst of sort of deep propaganda environment that we have here in the States now. Thank you, Fred. Jean and then Heather and then Jeanine.

Yes, my group was very affirming of.

Using the breakout groups. They thought that using breakouts was.

We got to know the people that are actually in the group much more.

Closely and speak in more detail.

So I would pass that on as something to continue.

Good. Thank you, Heather.

This is going to be kind of Cheesy, but here it is.

I started coming and have kept coming.

Because I met Gil Friend back in the 70s and meeting him and the Institute for Local Self Reliance back in the day really changed the whole course of my life. So being in, being in this group actually in some odd way creates a bigger context for the life that I have lived for the last 50 plus years. And I'm just deeply grateful for Gil in the world and how he inspires me and how I always learn stuff when I'm in his presence. And one of the things I get the most benefit from, that I'd like to see us continue to do is to investigate our deepest held beliefs in search of what is real, not. Not what is it that I believe to be real, but actually what is real. So thank you, Gil Friend.

Thank you, Heather. I'm humbled both by your appreciation and by your suggestion. Thank you for both. Janine.

Oh, hi. This is my first time here, so I, you know, obviously know what you guys have been talking about for the last three years. I've enjoyed the emphasis on connection, on, you know, bringing in contemplative practices as well as science and business. And that intersection of all of them I think is so important. And one suggestion that I would have is, you know, maybe highlight. I think this is something that other people have talked about, like different projects that people are working on and then especially what are the challenges and obstacles that they had and how did they overcome them? Because I think that's something we can all learn a lot from. And I think there's a lot of great ideas out there, but some of them move forward and some of them don't. And getting that personal experience of what really made this work in this very difficult environment would be really enlightening.

Thank you, Michelle.

Yeah, I keep coming back because it's the smartest and most caring and perhaps one of the most involved groups of people that I participate in was the highlight of my month. In terms of question number two. One of the things that I put out in the small group was the idea that maybe there could be some action focus with caucuses among the many interests that we all have. So if we had three or four people working on say, climate, justice or on.

Just.

That's one example that there might be projects, actual work projects where we can take the brilliant thinking that comes out of these meetings and put it to work somehow. I also want to thank Gil for really making space for emotions and feelings, which is something that the typical 60 plus white guy doesn't necessarily do when they run meetings. And I am noting that this particular gathering is much more male than usual. There are about 80% of us who have a Y chromosome on this call, and it's usually more like 50, 60%. So that's just an observation.

Also.

Also very white, or is that the.

Right word to use?

Was I politically correct or Caucasian?

Don't know, but I know what you mean there. We. Yeah, we. On. On both of these fronts, we have varied from time to time. We're not as diverse as we might be. The key to that, frankly, is you all, as well as me, inviting people who, you know, who you think would appreciate this conversation, you think would contribute to this conversation, and who might be from different backgrounds or life experiences than you or me or other folks here. So that's always an open invitation. As Shell said, it's, you know, sometimes more diverse, sometimes less. It's not something that we measure and track, but we always encourage. So please, by all means. And, you know, in the spirit of what Shel said about this being one of the, you know, more valuable groups you participate in, well, then, who do you want to share it with? Bring them in. Let's do that. As for doing actions together, I think for now the suggestion from George and Peter is a good one of let's build a structure that makes it easier to do that and let's see how that goes, rather than, you know, trying to enforce a common focus on us. All my hesitation on that over the years has been that everybody here is so busy and so active in so many ways that you probably don't necessarily need another project, but you might want another one or find or have ways that a little bit of what you're doing can contribute to somebody else's.

So by all means, I just want to clarify. I think you misunderstood something I said. I was not suggesting we all adopt one project, but that communities of interest within the network might find each other. And I think that what George and Peter are doing will facilitate that, but that, you know, if two or three of us from here wanted to focus on one particular action project, and perhaps the whole group could contribute some brain power at times. But I in no way want to see us all working on the same thing as what this group does.

Let's start it that way. Let's see what happens. We'll be adaptive and we'll follow the flow on what. What comes of the. The spreadsheet that George and Peter put together. As far as themes, you know, we've. We've given a lot of thought to themes. I've thought about actually constructing an arc for the year, but I frankly find that each week, sometimes each morning of the call, there's something that's rising in me as where I want to focus that day or that month. So we'll be dancing into that over the next call or two. Maybe we'll find a longer term flow, or maybe it will just evolve. Call to call. With that in mind, I know we're at time. Let me just share with you something I came across last night, which I think will be a starting point for February. We'll see if that's the case. I came across a piece of writing from Arturo Escobar, Colombian born, anthropology professor and scholar at the University of North Carolina. Very, very interesting man. I commend to you his works. But here is something out of a book that he's done called Feel Think and this is a partly Google translation and partly Gil translation from a French translation of whatever language he originally wrote it, and I can't find the Original the nature/culture Partition, which focuses modern Western ontology and which has imposed itself everywhere, is not the only way of being in the world, even less the ultimate form of civilization. Such a dualism which separates body and mind, emotion and reason, savage and civilized, actor and researcher, human and other than human, prevents us from experiencing ourselves as part of the world and leads us to destroy it. Therefore, the emancipatory project cannot be limited to changing the world. Today is about changing of worlds.