From Economic Crisis to Real Estate Stability with Mike Haigh

Are you one of the many busy professionals working in offices day in and day out? Do you wonder how some people grow their wealth fast, retire early and play on work days? Well, you're in luck because Ginny Bolling hosts this show Pivots of Prosperity where she interviews people that can do just that play on work days. Many guests have become financially free. She also interviews people that are on their journey and people that are in support roles like attorneys, contractors, brain brokers and others. Commercial real estate is the common element. She is on a mission to be sure. Busy professionals know they can own substantial commercial properties too, like apartments, self storage facilities and others, and not have to do the work managing them. Passive investing is the key. Syndications are the typical method. Tax write offs are some of the biggest rewards. Ginny and partners find the deals, build a strong team and business plan, then offer the investment opportunities to passive investors. New episodes are released every Tuesday at 12, so watch for new releases. If you want to get involved, let us know. You need to get pre qualified to hear about most deals. See the show notes for contact information.

Hello.

Hello.

Jenny Bolling here with Pivot to Prosperity brought to you by Pivotal Real Estate Investments, where we help our investors build wealth and income through commercial real estate that improves communities. And today we have Mike. Hi. With us and thank you for coming on Mike. Appreciate it.

Yeah, thank you, Jenny. It's always good to talk to you again. Excited to be on.

Yeah. Well, so we met maybe not quite a year ago and talked about some properties and I really have seen you do some presentations and different things since then and, and I really respect your professionalism and wanted to have you on the show and let you share some of your experience. And so I'm going to read a little bit about your background and then let you augment.

Okay, it sounds good. Thank you, Ginny.

All right. Mike is a seasoned investment professional with a unique journey from economic student during the global financial crisis to a leader in commercial real estate investing. Highlights would include studied economics during the great financial crisis, worked for a large university endowment following the Yale model, transitioned into early stage venture capital investing and currently is focused on commercial real estate, particularly multifamily assets and some other interesting things which you're going to get into. So why don't you go ahead and fill us in a little more about your background?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Thank you. So I really got interested in the markets and investing during the GFC. So 2008, I was in school, I started studying economics. I was fascinated to learn why this happened, how how so many people missed, you know, the, the, the crisis that was, that affected them and it affected every single person, affected every family, every business. And so I really wanted to understand why it happened and then how I could help people navigate that in the future, you know, because I saw the overall impact. So studied economics coming out of school. I worked for the University of Chicago's endowment. They invested about 14 billion across every asset class you can think of. They use what's, what's called the Yale endowment model, which basically emphasizes diversification across asset classes. And they have significant allocations to alternative investments like real estate and private equity and venture capital. And so I had a really good opportunity to collaborate with the asset class teams, private equity team, the real assets team, absolute return team, and really gained invaluable experience there. And that really reinforced for me the, the importance of long term investing and the benefits of diversifying into illiquid asset classes. You know, I think a lot of people, they're, they're exposed to the classic, you know, stocks and bond portfolio and they don't really think about illiquids as a, as a great place to allocate capital. But that's, that was really the importance that you learn in an endowment model like that. So that really influenced my investment philosophy. But after being there for five years, I wanted to broaden my horizon and I transitioned into a very different role in venture capital in Chicago. And we looked at a ton of early stage companies and we invested about 20 million in nine different companies during that time period. And venture capital, I mean, it's really interesting to work with those founders and especially the people that have really innovative and transformative technologies. And you realize that there's huge high growth potential there, but it's also extremely high risk. So it highlighted to me the importance of balancing a portfolio with both high risk and high reward investments, but also more stable income generating assets. So ultimately I was drawn to commercial real estate because it combines the stability of tangible assets and it also is a great opportunity for value creations. And over the last 4 years I worked for the university or sorry for ATX acquisitions in Austin and I worked a lot on the acquisitions. On our capital raising side, we invested about 99 million across different commercial real estate asset classes. Mostly multifamily, but we also did a little bit of office and hospitality as well. And one of the things I really like about commercial real estate is offers predictable cash flows, there's potential for appreciation. You know, you can implement value add strategies like you can renovate the property, you can do operational improvements, you can directly impact those returns that you're going to get over time. So I think that, that that's something that really drew me to that.

Well, that's, that sounds really interesting. And in fact I want to ask you actually a little bit more about the venture capital. Were you buying businesses? Were you buying. What were you buying?

We were buying businesses. Yeah, we were, we were buying early stage companies. So we would most of the time we would acquire a little more than 50% of the company or majority of board control and then we would directly, you know, advise and work on the strategies of those companies to help them scale and grow over time.

And you were on the front line picking the companies.

That's right, yeah. On the front line picking the companies and then working with the founders.

Very cool. Gives me something else to talk to you about after we're done here.

It was really interesting. It was a great experience.

Well, actually we don't have to say after we're done talking because like you say businesses, it's a great opportunity to. High risk. Higher risk because it's not a durable asset like real estate. I mean I love the durable assets and I've been pounding that. But there is a business out there that I'm just waiting till the right chips fall and I'm probably going to go into buying a business that's acquiring, buying into. It's a syndication as well. Multiple businesses that are acquiring businesses. Just like all the doctor's offices are doing. Right. And they're doing the back office to make them more efficient but letting, letting the doctors continue to practice but with less headache. And then they're retiring. But it's a good way to do that succession planning to bring the next people in and they don't have to work quite as hard because a lot of that back office stuff is now being handled by private equity. The private Equity Company. Right.

100%. And that's actually exactly what we did. We built out the back office operations to basically free up the operator to focus on what they're really good at and what they're passionate about. So I love the strategy.

Yeah, yeah, I really. So I, I felt funny because I've been saying durable assets, durable assets. But I have to look twice at this because it's, it's an awesome thing. But were you dealing with having to be on boards then too to represent the company and follow through, to know exactly what the internal affairs are or did you?

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So you know, it. Sit on the board of. But like you know, these are very early stage companies. So this is more of like a daily, weekly conversation with the founder to talk about where they are with their business plan and to brainstorm with them and try to address any issues that they're, they're working through in the moment.

You know, any particular industry you guys were working on?

We were actually doing a lot in sports technology and particularly in the youth market. Yeah. So it was a niche that we saw was very fast growing and that tends to have a lot of money being spent in it. And you know, it's, there's, there's a lot of ways to impact young athletes lives too by providing them better, better training and better technology along the way. So it was very interesting space.

Did you seed any money for the sports betting apps that are out there now?

We actually didn't do any sports betting. We looked at that a little bit. But like one of the verticals that we invested heavily in was in esports actually, so competitive video games.

Yeah. And that's blown up. Oh, cool.

Which is blowing.

So, yeah, it's, let's tie that back to the real estate part of it that we love so much too, because that's where, where we wanted to, to zero in on this podcast primarily though. And the fact is when you're buying apartments or self storage or any of that, you're buying a business too, right?

Exactly. Yeah. And that's, that's one thing I really like about real estate is every, every acquisition is its own little business, you know, and so a lot of the same mentality that you would have with, with an early stage company, you can take into real estate, but then you also have an asset class that's a lot less volatile. You know, there's a lot more data available for you. So it's, it's, you know, if you're looking to diversify your investments, you know, if you're investing in early stage tech, probably 1 out of 10 investments is going to be good in real estate. You know, you don't want to invest in op with an operator that has a history of, you know, having a couple of losses in their portfolio. You know, the good operators have, can, can perform well and give you a good return, you know, 95% of the time. Right. So that's, that's something that's really attractive about it as well as just having having a tangible asset there with intrinsic value that, you know, is not going to just go away tomorrow like a tech company can.

Yeah, yeah, I, I like to try to point out that it's the asset of all time. I mean, we wouldn't even be here if, if Mother Earth weren't here. And that's real estate.

Yeah.

Kings and queens have fought for it for centuries. Right. It's the best, biggest, best asset of all time.

Biggest and best asset. And the best way to dependably grow your wealth and have. Preserve your wealth over time as well.

It drives me nuts. They call it an alternative, though.

I know, right? It is kind of funny.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just because you don't want to invest with Google stock or whatever. It's an alternative, but it's the best alternative.

It is the best alternative. Right, right, right. All right, well, so we talked about some of that. I wanted to be sure to get you over to talking about, I think you, you wanted to touch on actually on the show of the multiple benefits of investing in real estate, you know, there.

Yeah, yeah. And I think most people have probably heard of all these benefits, but it's always good to review it because, you know, sometimes when you're considering different investment options out there, you don't have that front of mind. And so some of the main benefits is like we talked about, you have a tangible asset with intrinsic value, it's not going anywhere. It's going to be less susceptible to bubbles in the market like other, some other financial assets. Maybe. You have steady, steady cash flow there. You have predictable cash flow. There's really good appreciation potential, you know, and you're going to have factors like inflation and population growth and land scarcity and improvements to the property that are going to accentuate that appreciation potential over time. And we're just getting through a big inflationary period. But real estate is a great inflation hedge. You know, when inflation rises, your property values and rental incomes are going to go up as well. So it's a great way to preserve your purchasing power over time. And then of course, these are, these are leveraged investments. So that's going to amplify your returns potentially. You know, as long as you're doing it responsibly. Responsibly and running downside analysis on it, that's going to, the leverage is going to increase your returns. And there's tax benefits involved here. You know, you have depreciation that's passed through. There's strategies you can use, like 1031 exchanges that will defer your capital gains. So there's lots of different ways to get tax benefits from the investment as well. And then one of the big things is you have low correlation with other asset classes like stocks and bonds. So that's going to reduce your overall portfolio risk and your overall portfolio volatility, which is a great thing. And then as we talked about on the appreciation side, you have control over these investments. You know, you can make good management decisions, you can do renovations, you can come up with creative marketing strategies to, to influence your investment over time. And then of course, in, in real estate and then even specifically in multifamily, there's a lot of demographic trends that are leading to this being a great investment over time as well. So, I mean, those are just some of the reasons why I really like real estate from, from a high level as an asset class.

And so you're actually looking at some, some different asset types these days too. You want to talk about that?

Yeah, for sure. So I really love multifamily. When you look across real estate and commercial real estate, multifamily tends to have the highest risk adjusted returns. So multifamily is a space that I've been in for a while. Some of the reasons why I really like multifamily is there's this consistent demand, of course, for housing. There's economies of scale in, in multifamily. So instead of going buying a single family home or a small, say, condo unit, you know, you're going to have operating efficiencies, you're going to reduce your per unit cost for maintenance and management. That's going to increase your profitability. There's risk mitigation here too. So, you know, if you own an asset with a single tenant, if you have vacancy, that's going to kill your revenue. You have diversification of income streams and more stability compared to a single tenant property. There's also resilience during economic downturns. You know, multifamily is a, it's a, it's a staple good that people need. So if you have a recession, people can't afford to buy houses anymore, or you have interest rates that rise at the fastest rate since the 1980s that we just got through, you know, that can put homeownership out of reach for people. And you're going to have resilience in demand for your product. You know, even when you do have some downturns and, and even when you do have a downturn, many cases, multifamily tends to have, you know, 90 plus occupancy levels. So you're going to have that consistency of demand over time. When you look at the historical performance, you're going to have lower volatility and higher risk adjusted returns compared to other commercial real estate sectors like retail or office. So that's something that I really like about it as well. And then there's also just a community impact here. Affordable housing in the US is a huge, is a huge issue. When you're in scene in a multifamily property, you're directly, you know, contributing, contributing to the community and making housing more accessible and better housing more accessible for more, more people out there. So that's something I really like. And there's. There's a couple other asset classes that are kind of adjacent to multifamily that I like as well. But I'll pause there and see if there's anything you wanted to.

Okay, good, good. Yeah, I'm glad you did that because what I wanted to touch on there is we do know obviously that there is a lot of new supply coming on, very location specific. That's what I always say. It's. You got to look at the location because you can't generalize about a property and have all those generalizations work. But so, and I've been around a long time, I remember, you know, seeing that we used to call them see through buildings where the vacancy can be great. I mean, you know, 90% has been and above has been the traditional, traditional level for a couple decades, for the most part now, but. And depends on where you're living again. But with this new supply in some areas, we're hearing about vacancy dipping in some spots. So everybody has to always do their homework when they're getting ready to invest and be sure you really look at that stuff. And we're gonna maybe if we have time at the end, talk a little bit more about the market. But I want to hear, and let the audience hear about your adjacent type assets that you're looking at.

Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to talk about the supply issue at some point too, but yeah, some of the adjacent asset classes that I really like are. I like manufactured housing. You know, this is. There's growing demand for manufactured housing. It's a good option for people that need affordable option. Affordable option for, for housing. There's limited supply and manufactured housing, there tends to be higher barriers for entry. There's a lot of zoning restrictions. There's a lot of not my neighborhood, you know, NIMBYism opposition to new developments. So that helps to increase the value of the existing communities out there. There tends to be low, low turnover, you know, people. So basically a lot of people will buy their, their house, then they'll rent the lot and you tend to have longer tenancy periods, lower turnover rates in manufactured housing and as a result you tend to have really good risk adjusted returns. You're going to see cap rates higher than what you'd see throughout most of multifamily as well. So those are just some of the elements that I really like about manufactured housing. Now another one that I really like out there is RV parks. So you know, this is a pretty niche one that probably a lot of people haven't considered, but this really came more, became more popular in 2020 when people realize that they, you know, they had to go outdoors to do any kind of vacation. And a lot of millennials and younger demographics are embracing, you know, a lot of the outdoor travel or more nomad nomadic lifestyles. So there's been really high demand for RV parks and it's actually expected over the next five years to grow at a really high annual growth rate above 7%. So that's something that I really like about it. But the other thing that's beautiful about this market is it's very fragmented and most of the owners are not large private equity firms. They're mom and pop owners that have owned the property for a long time. So it's hard to find these deals. And a lot of the properties haven't had a lot of work, a lot of investment over time either. So if you can find the opportunity, you can implement good value add program. You can get a great return and cap rates much higher than what you would see in multifamily. So I think overall, you know, if you're coming into commercial real estate, you do a multifamily investment, but looking at some of these other sectors like, like the manufactured housing or rv, that's going to give you great diversification and potentially higher returns to complement and you're going to have other resiliencies that you would have in, down in downturns with in, you know, an RV or a manufactured housing investment as well.

So you're mainly looking at existing manufactured housing properties with a value add strategy or are you looking at all at new product?

Yeah, I mean I think there's, there's a, the new product is attractive as well. I spent a lot more time in the value add space and you know, it tends to be a little bit a lower risk space as well. So that's why I really like that, that part of, of the market. And you know, I think if you can find the ownership groups that are hard to find and convince them to sell, it can be a really, really good return.

Yeah, I know a lot of people in that space. I've looked at quite a few deals myself, and I would do it. It's funny, we. We have obviously two different main things that you can do in these cases too. Whether you own the, the, the home or you just rent the, the, the dirt and sell the home. Some of these times when you buy a park, it's a mix. And I prefer the approach where they own the home and so we don't have to fix it. Right. And they'll be much more responsible and care more about the upkeep of the home and all if they own it. So, yeah, it's, it's interesting. There's all kinds of parts. I, I flipped mobile homes, manufactured homes for a while during.

Oh, interesting. I want to hear about this.

Yeah. I thought, well, people aren't paying rent. I'm going to go ahead and learn about this mobile home stuff. Right. The manufactured home. And I like to learn things from the ground up. So, yeah, I, I got into that kind of thing and learned quite a bit. But yeah, the. At one point, one of them I bought was about to be demolished and they said, okay, you can have that one. We'll give you a couple months free rent. Well, I, I ended up putting enough money into it. I had had two prior, so I had a little practice, but it was getting up to like $30,000. I'm like, oh, man, that's what I do in a normal flip. But so I called being an appraiser myself. Right. I. I call the first I look up the biggest company for appraising manufactured homes. Right, Right. Landing page is the actual project where my house is that I'm.

Oh, no way.

Yeah. And I'm like, okay, I think I'm in the right park.

Yeah, exactly.

So. And the VP called me and we were on the phone over an hour and then he. And he convinced me it's just like anything else, you know, it depends on if you can. If the market will bear it right in the area, if they'll pay for those renovations. It's worth doing the renovations.

Exactly. Comps. Right.

I think I ended up putting 40 or 45 into that. That property. And I ended up making 25. Pretty much a normal flip, you know, 25 to 25 or more is a normal flip. Profit. Profit. So, yeah, I was really happy. I was like, okay, less money, less money all around. But yeah, same profit.

Interesting.

Yeah. But anyway, yeah, parks are the thing to do. Doing the individual things aren't. I'm not into that really. I just did that During a period. But buying a whole park is really, I think, smart. And these RVs, I get it, it's. They're cash cows, right?

They are, they're cash cows. And you know, it's hard to find. It's hard to find a few, but.

Do you only own any yet?

I don't own any right now, but yeah. But definitely doing some diligence on some.

Yeah. Yeah. Well. And so when we talk about some of these other more affordable options for housing besides the manufactured, just before we started recording, we, we talked about modular and I'm a big believer that's the dark horse. Like I said, that's going to be the surprise new asset class of the decade. Because there's a lot of, a lot more manufacturers out there than I knew.

Yeah.

That are doing things and top level architects are all for it. They're liking the product. They see. That was a real convincing thing for me. And so. Yeah. And then the 3D printed homes, right?

That's right. Yeah. There's a company here in Austin that has gotten a lot of investment for 3D printing homes. But I, I do, I do like that, the mindset and that. You know, obviously you've had experience looking at some of these smaller asset classes within real estate because you look at some of the trends over time, you know, multifamily, early 2000s started to become a lot more institutional, get a lot more capital and private equity coming in. Storage went through that cycle obviously over the last few years. But some of these asset classes that we're talking about today are going to be the next like that. And so the people that can go out buy today, there's going to be roll ups, there's going to be great exit opportunities and a lot of capital searching for them as they become more sophisticated and there's more data available, you know, so I think it's an exciting time to be looking at some of these other asset classes.

It is, it is. And like with self storage, the, the banks, remember, initially didn't like it and then they realized, holy moly, these things are cash cows. Right.

Exactly. Yeah.

They like to lend on them.

Right. The banks, you know, a little while to get familiar with an asset class and trust it. Right. So that also is a great point. That just improves the flow of capital in and will drive down cap rates over time.

Yeah. So if you're a trailblazer, you know, and out there and they, they find that you're one of the ones that, that's been in it a while, I think it's it can speak volumes for sure. But yeah, it's interesting times. It is. I'm just looking at some of our questions here. So you enjoy in depth market research it sounds like, right?

I do, yeah. I do, yeah.

So what is it you like most about it?

I mean one of the things I, I like about a lot of the, the real estate research that you do is the data is, is available. You just have to go and find it and then, you know, bring it all together and be disciplined about the way that you're looking at it. But it's not as opaque or as risky as you know, as when you're looking at say like a venture capital investment. You know, people can find the data to make an informed and good decision and have a high likelihood of success. So that's what I really like about it is there's you, you basically know the factors are going to be influencing your investment. So go do the research on it and be disciplined about it and you should do very well over time.

So do you have any go no go thresholds like for population or for poverty levels or some of that?

Yeah. So I mean in multifamily we typically would always. We would look for properties that were in good school districts and we would have crime too, was something that we heavily weighed. And so if we were looking at an area that there's different crime rating websites out there that say we're see or below, we're not going to touch that area. Or if you have schools that are say below a six and you have a lot of two and three bedrooms, you know, there's a lot of families are going to be moving in. We, we wouldn't touch that. Some of the older vintages in real estate I think aren't really worth the risk. But that's just my perspective because you know, some people have a lot of expertise in those and they can, they have good strategies to kind of mitigate the capex work. But you know, we typically didn't want to look at a Property that was 1960s or 1970s unless it was really well maintained, you know, so but for us a lot of the, the no go's came in, came down to pricing crime schools and then we were always looking for demand drivers where you had GDP growth, population growth, job growth that was much higher than the US average and is expected to be the case over the next few years, you know, so the demand drivers are key to be looking at.

You have any secret sources of information?

I, I don't know if they're I don't know if they're secret. I, I think, like, I think the main thing is having your criteria and having all the points that you look at and being very disciplined about it. Because I think one of the biggest issues with any type of investing is we're all emotional. You know, we'll, we'll, we'll see something. We'll really like it for one reason or another. But going in with a set criteria can help take away a lot of that emotion and help you become a much better investor.

Agreed. Totally. Right. Well, yeah, the other thing maybe to touch on with that is household income factor, because that's been a big part of this affordability equation. Do you want to talk about that?

Yeah. I mean, we always took a heavy look at median household income in the area and seeing if that income would be able to support our rents. And then also taking a look at the alternatives, you know, so what is the median house price in the area compared to, you know, your monthly payment on your, on your house rent? How does that compare to your rent and your multifamily property? And right now that hasn't been much of an issue because single family homes are historically unaffordable. I think they just hit peak unaffordability on a historical basis a few months ago, but they're still close to historically unaffordable. So that's not as big a factor right now, but that's certainly something that we always look at is the median household income and the median household. The median income of the potential residents in the area. And especially when you're doing a value add and you're going to be increasing those rents, do the demographics actually support that?

Absolutely. Yeah. That's a big thing because if you don't have people within a mile or two that can afford the rents you're projecting, it's not going to be a very successful venture, typically.

Exactly.

But yeah, that's something that I think a lot of people lose sight of and it has gotten. So it's hard for, for some, in some areas for affordability. Have you gotten into any new construction projects at all?

I have not. Have you?

Okay.

No.

I explain it as. I have had PTSD from the 80s. When I was an appraiser in the 80s, that was the savings and loan crisis and I spent most of my time, a lot of the time anyway, appraising whole puds that went belly up. And a lot of them weren't just because they weren't viable. It was the feds took over the bank and it Took a long time for them to sort things out and start funding projects again. And in the meantime, the project could go belly up because took way too long, you know, and it was sad. So we'd appraise it, might have roads in, might have some of the houses or apartments or whatever might be almost complete, but so we had appraise it as is and then as though complete. But there were so many in the 1980s that I've been chicken. If it's a small enough project, I would definitely look at it now since the housing shortage is such a dire thing. You know, as long as it's in an area that really needs it and you can size up that competition pretty well. But I've been a chicken.

It's definitely higher risk and they're a lot more exposed to interest rate volatility. And you get the longer development period with, you know, multifamily, you could be looking at a two year period. Right. So there's a lot that can change on your inputs during that time period that you don't have control over.

Well, and I've also, since I. That was like I was on the other side of it then, but now that I'm wearing an investor hat and I'm rubbing elbows with these guys that are doing the construction, it's great to hear how they're mitigating risk and how they are dealing with a lot of that stuff. So that's another reason I'm open to it. But yeah, I haven't pulled the trigger on it yet.

Yeah, well, I'll be interested to see what you come across.

And I'm actually looking at a project right now. I'm going to probably put an offer in where the long term, one or two years would be to build. But we're just talking like 22, 25 townhomes. That's very manageable.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. That makes sense.

But anyway, so listen, before it gets too late here, I need to ask you the question I ask everybody and is there a pivotal person or event that's brought you to where you are today or that's pushing you towards something in your life right now?

Yeah, I would say that there was a hiring manager at the University of Chicago's endowment who, who gave me an offer at the time. And at the time I had taken, you know, economics classes, but I didn't have any finance or accounting classes under my belt and those were prerequisites for the role. And you know, sometimes people will give you a chance when they see that you have good experience in another realm. And I always respect the people that. That do that because it opens doors for those individuals for the rest of their life. So I think that's something that I am thankful for. And always looking at other people that are in similar boats where they, you know, they have good experience and they're smart and they're. They're motivated, but maybe they. They don't have, you know, like the classic resume joke where people will be like, entry level, but you need, you know, like 10 years of experience in this. In this field and the expert level and all these different, you know, different. Different subjects. And a lot of times you don't need that. But it comes down to people being willing to. Willing to take a little bit of risk on. On those individuals.

Right, right. Well, that's good. That is. And so. And we actually have a program where we reward people for being pivotal people, and then we do local legends. And I actually will call them if you want to officially nominate them. You can call them or I would call them to say you were nominated. And if you want to come on the show and. And share your knowledge, you'll even get a little pin, a little pill pin that says that you're a pivotal person. And it's kind of a fun thing that we do.

I love that. That's great.

Yeah. Yeah. You want to nominate that person as a pivotal person?

Yeah, let me, let me reach out to her so she knows.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. And then get back to me too, and we'll. We'll do it. Yeah. Well, good. All right, well, so why don't you tell people how they can reach you?

Yeah. So you can reach me on LinkedIn. My LinkedIn. If you look me up there is my first name, last name, of course, Mike Hague. That's spelled my last name is H A I G H. Or you can reach me at Gmail at my first name, last name,3gmail.com. So that's my M I K E H a I g h3@gmail.

All right, very good. Anything you want to add before we go?

No, I. It's great to always talk to you and you have a lot of respect for. For what you do and how diligence, how diligent you are with the way you look at investments. So it's, it's great to talk to you and have the opportunity to hop on your podcast.

Great. Well, thank you again and we'll stay in touch here. And we're going to put all those contact. That contact information in the show notes too.

Sounds great. All right, well, thank you.