Celebrating Men, Women & Partnership with Alison Armstrong

Welcome to Mama Goddess. I'm your host, Alexandra J. Johnson. This podcast is all about rocking your goddess life, creating vibrant health and celebrating motherhood and family life. It's about living an authentically awesome life. Let's have some fun. Hello and welcome. I'm Alexandra J. Johnson, and today we have an extraordinary guest, Alison Armstrong. Alison is a sought after speaker in the areas of gender differences, well being, empowerment, sexuality, and relationships. She is the creator of the Celebrating Men workshop series and the author of the Queen's Code, plus a host of other products and programs designed to foster understanding and further partnership between men and women. Welcome, Allison.

Thank you.

Yes. I'm. So I'm. I have to start off with gratitude because I have done all of your workshops, or you had their series of workshops and I've done them all. And it was a gift from my now husband. And he was my boyfriend, early stages. When he bought this, I was so into it, I was like, I've got to do this. So he bought me the whole package of all your workshops and I did them. And in over, you know, a few years, it took me probably, but in that period, we were together, engaged, unengaged, and now we've been married for three years. And I say, literally, your information and your wisdom transformed our relationship. And I can honestly say you are a key component to me being married to my husband. So. So thank you.

You're welcome. What's his first name?

His name is Brian.

Brian. Cool.

It's so awesome.

I love that. Engaged and unengaged. I love. There's a great story in there and really important.

Yeah. We always joke and say we got divorced before we got married. Wow.

Well, Greg and I were together and then I broke up with him. Then we became friends, and then we got back together. And, you know, now we've been married for 21 years.

Wow.

But we're really grateful for having broken up because most women date men that they have great chemistry with, but they don't necessarily admire them or like them, and they don't take the time to be friends, which is why so many women ask, why do men want to be friends after they break up with you? And the answer is, well, because men date women they like.

Right.

And so when we were broken up, it gave us a chance to become friends. And that's one of the rules of our marriage, is friends first.

That's fascinating. Okay. And I know you've talked about this in your workshops too, because we tend to be. Why are we attracted to people that we don't like? And why do we keep. Yeah. What's going on with that? Because it's really interesting. I did that tons before I married my husband. I mean, it was a little ridiculous how many guys I dated that just were not good fits. But I was very sexually attracted to.

Well, I think what's a cocktail? Literally, Which. But it's kind of a pun as well, of testosterone and dopamine. So when you. What we call the caveman within, when the caveman within perceives what she thinks will be a good provider and protector or the source of good genetic material, it causes a chemical response in our bodies. And for once, we were accurate. We call it chemistry. And that drug is probably one of the most addictive on the planet. That combination of excitement and then testosterone causes focus and what I would call hunter mode. It puts you in get him totally. And so we're totally amped up. And the point of that drug mixture is to ensure that you, at a minimum, have sex with that person and acquire that genetic material and. And hopefully also acquire their loyalty, that they will protect you and provide for you and your child and forever. Which, you know, of course, made sense when we lived till we were 30 years old. Now might not make so much sense. Not that I'm against that, but we might question the whole premise. But, yeah, I mean, my. It's pretty funny. My first husband and I, years into our marriage, finally confessed to the other that we. That we didn't like each other and that we never had.

Wow.

And that was shortly before we got divorced. And we also. What's cool, though, is we also acknowledge that the seven years of our marriage and how miserable we were was worth it because of the existence of our son. And our son is just a prime example of nature. Got it right. You know, it was good. So that for the future of the species that these two human beings mated, they just probably shouldn't have, you know, tried to live together.

That is awesome. Yeah. That's how I feel about my parents. I'm happy that they did that. And I can't believe that they were together. Yeah. I'm like, oh, my gosh. How are you guys married? You guys are a horrible match. Very interesting. Okay, so I know you're passionate about partnership, and that's a big part of your work. What. What does partnership mean to you? Like, is it. Yeah. I would love to hear your definition of partnership.

Okay.

Yeah.

What most people don't know about me because, you know, I started studying men in 1991 and have been educating men and women about Men and women for so long, they assume that I'm passionate about gender. And I'm. I'm not so much passionate about gender. I was fascinated by gender. And I see all the misunderstandings associated with both gender and masculine and feminine ways of being as obstacles to partnership. And that's what I'm passionate about. And my definition of partnership actually is Webster's definition. It comes right out of the dictionary. It says partners are persons that are on the same side or team. So there's that part like how do we get on each other's team? How do we stay on each other's side and be on each other's team even when we're really hurt by the other person or really angry at the other person, or really disagree with the other person or how they are seems like the reason why we're not going to get anything we want. How do you still stay on the same side or team? And then the second part of the definition is persons engaged in some enterprise sharing its profits and risks. And that part I love because it points to the centerpiece of a partnership, which is the enterprise, and how much work there is to do to define and and articulate the enterprise, to tease out and align on the values and principles that are the foundation of the enterprise, to look at what's the possibility of what could arise between us. And so the definition of that enterprise and how juicy it is to us, how big and yummy and spirit calling it is, you know, and work invoking and passion inducing, has a lot to do with what makes the difficulties of that particular partnership worth it. Do you know that the beauty of the enterprise determines whether it's worth it to create a partnership and maintain a partnership with someone or not? Because sometimes some of the enterprise is so puny it's actually not worth it. Like you're sorry, but we are not a good fit. And this is too much trouble because what's going to rise between us isn't big enough for beautifulness.

And then that's when you. And that's just like a person to person kind of. You decide on that because you can't really. Every person has to decide that for themselves. Right. Like I feel like sometimes we try to make things work when they. It's just clearly not working. Yeah.

And when you say decide it for themselves, what's the it that you're saying?

Well, I'm just saying decide if this is big enough and beautiful enough for the person to actually give it the time and energy and resources that the enterprise needs.

Yes. Yes. And yeah, everyone involved has to make that decision for themselves. And sometimes we can't even define the enterprise, so it falls apart because there's no alignment. And, and one of the things, I don't know about you, but I grew up at EST, then Landmark, and so I spent the first 10 years of my adult life steeped in the conversation of enrollment. And it's one of the things that we have to be careful of when we enroll someone else in a relationship, when we try to keep convincing them the beauty of the enterprise instead of them putting themselves in. Can I give you an example of this?

It's really, absolutely, yes.

So we have a friend and, and man who's been on our panel since the very beginning. And what he was committed to was having this outrageous marriage, like, like off the charts in its truthfulness and its integrity and its support and its compassion. And he was just so intense about it. And so he wrote this whole manifesto for this marriage he's going to have. And he wrote out all these principles and agreements that he and his wife would have, and he was on fire. And then he started going on dates and there he would be on a first date presenting what he was looking for. You know, so this is a man who wanted to get married, right? Which most women are like, you want to get married? I've got a live one. Which is really silly since most men want to get married. And, and so he present his manifesto and woman after woman after woman would freak out or be disdainful or just like, I gotta go now. And, and then, and then one night he's presenting his whole thing and the woman sitting across from him, her response is, well, that's good. But you gotta add this, He's married to, right? So the enterprise that he was committed to spoke to her, right? And you know, when Greg and I broke up, it was because I had fallen in love with another man that I was working on a project with which I am, I am a build together person. So I am a builder, but I always want to build with someone and I was building something with this person and I fell in love with them and that's why we broke up. And when we were looking at getting back together, he's like, look, I'm just afraid you're going to fall in love with someone else who, you know, what, is working on a project with you. And my flippant response was, well, why don't you work on a project with me? And I mean, he, he really stopped at the bottom of escalator. Everybody Trouble getting out. Right. And he just.

He.

She just looked at me and goes, I don't want to work on a project with you. I want to have a home with you. And that's the best offer anybody ever made me. I'm such a home maker, you know, homemaker, home be or spaces to be in. That's totally my thing. Homemaker. And I don't know if that's in a traditional sense. You know, he does most of the cooking, but, you know, I am. I've always want to make a home, make a place to be. And so that was the thing that just stopped me in my tracks. I want to do that. So, yeah, partners on the same team and sharing in an enterprise. The risks, the profits, the challenges. So they're on the same team, engaged in something together. I love that.

Okay, so I'm curious, as you're talking about you and your husband, and what about, like, intimacy? I know that this is where I am currently of wanting more intimacy and more connection with my husband and just with myself and just the evolution of our marriage. And I. I know I talk to women too, and there's this desire to have, like, juicy, alive, intimate connection. And sometimes you have it, sometimes you don't. And I just hearing you and watching you and seeing you, you just vibe, juicy, connected, radiance. So give us the secrets.

Well, the first thing I have to say is most men, when you use the word intimate, they assume you mean sex, that more intimacy means more sexual. And. And that's one of the things that trips up couples because. Because women generally need to feel connected in order to want to have sex, and men have sex in order to feel connected. Men get connected through sex. And. And so one of the things that I think is hilarious, but most people don't is is an interaction between a man and a woman where he's like, let's have sex. And she says, well, I need to get connected. He's like, okay, so. So let's have sex. No, I need to get connected first. So I should put it in. No. Right. This is two different operating systems trying to communicate. Right. And so I just have to say that. So when you say intimacy, I think what you're meaning is not the man definition of intimacy, but the woman definition of intimacy, where we feel. Where we feel really close, where we feel known and seen, and that we're revealed to the other person and they're revealed to us like that.

Yeah, totally. And I just love the distinction, too, that you made that how men, they connect to have by having sex. That's so great.

Yeah, they do.

I know. I just, I just. The other night, Ish initiated. You know, I'm a new mom, I have a almost two year old, so sex hasn't been top on my list, you know, the last two years. We've been working on it, but the other day I was just like, oh my gosh, he's such a great husband. I need, I know I don't feel like it, but I need to just, you know, I need to just step up my game and just invite him. So I did. And he literally was beyond thrill. I mean, it was amazing. I was like, wow, okay, this is cool. And then they, then they are connected, like you were saying, like there was a deeper connection. I felt deeper intimacy that night and the next day. Yes, but I didn't feel like it. I didn't feel like initiating it.

Yes, and I commend you. And if I could say something, because some women are freaking out right now. Oh my gosh. You had sex when you didn't feel like it. You betrayed yourself.

I did enjoy it. I mean, once I got into it, but.

Yes, but that's the normal. The normal. And to be fair, winning the right to refuse to have sex with our husband was really important in women's rights because for a very long time we didn't have the right to say no. And that's terrible. But as women, we look to our feelings to tell us how to act, because to us, our feelings are the most true thing about us. So if we're going to honor ourselves, we're going to honor our feelings. And so for you to honor yourself and you didn't feel like having sex, for most women, they think that you shouldn't have had it, let alone initiated it. Right. And I commend you because as you already know, I'm a big believer in having a different attitude about sex. That it's not about feeling like it, it's not about wanting to. That if we depend on that, we won't have enough sex. And, and frankly, then we won't have enough connection and intimacy. And because our, our hormones that cause us to feel like having sex, not only, you know, is it really hard to line it up cyclically, but, but women's lifestyles don't cause their bodies to produce the hormones that have them want to have sex or, and neither do their lifestyles produce the kind of hormones that make it easy for them to have orgasms. So. So we have a whole lifestyle that's a. Like we have all this so called sexual freedom. And we have a lifestyle that makes us not want to, fails to have us want to. So to a point of view about sex that this isn't about whether I feel like it or not. This is about what it provides for my partner and for our union.

Right.

And so, so I'm going to initiate sex trusting that once it gets rolling, just because I said so, because I invited it, I'm going to enjoy it, I'm going to be glad I did it. I mean, that's whenever I'm like, oh gosh, I don't want to have.

Right, right.

I was really tired the other night. I just wanted to go to sleep like, honey, let's do it in the morning. Okay? And he's like, sure, honey. Okay. And he rolls over and I could feel his body that he. I thought he was gonna roll up and go to sleep. And I noticed he didn't. And I could just. And I'm reading a book or playing Spider Solitary, something I really wanted to do. Right. Totally into it.

Yeah.

And I could just feel in his body that it was wound up and he was just, he was being very kind and courteous. He's, you know, very, very respectful about it all the time. But did it. It was not his first choice. And then I, but it was late, so it could all be justified. Right? And then finally just, you know, I put my phone down and said, or we could do it now. And it was so. It was so great to give that to him. Right. And to feel like I was a good wife. And, you know, and honestly, if your partner isn't, quote, good enough in bed to have you always be glad you did it, then there's some information you need to share. There's some training that needs to be done. And I think we always need to be prepared to train our lovers. And, and. Which brings up a really good word. That's what I wanted. That's that juiciness that you were talking about. Comes from, comes from two things. One is I want to be in love. I don't want to just love him. I want to be in love with my husband and be crushing on him. And. And he's not my type, right? So it's not like this chemical thing going on. And the second thing is I always wanted a lover. Do you know, I wanted, I wanted a lover. I wanted someone like, you know, we're gonna have Tris. We were gonna figure out how to sneak away. We were gonna, you know, be bad. We were gonna, you know, like I wanted totally, I wanted that excitement and that into each other. Ness. And, and so, because I, I wanted it and expressed that early on in the process of dating, Greg started talking about on our first date. And, and he, he signed up for that. So again, that's the enterprise. Right? So he signed up for that. And then, and then I just look to see how to keep it juicy. So. So, you know, a lot of couples, like, they just get into these platonic kisses, goodbye, good morning, good night, right?

Yep.

And if you want to keep it juicy, you can't do that. You gotta, you gotta kiss them and then like just pause for some physical contact. Like press your whole body against him, cop a feel, have him cop a feel. You know, we call it unlimited breastfeels. You know, you don't, I mean, you could slip some tongue, but you, all you have to do is like, make your mouth really soft and mush into them. And. And all of a sudden there's the presence of sexual energy and, and that keeps it juicy and alive. And what one man said many years ago, because we were introduced, the idea of women choosing to have their restaurant open 24 7, like, that they could just, you know this because you're in the class, right? That they could just let their partner know I'm a yes. And I may, you know, I may want to take a shower, I may want to finish my book in the fridge, but I'm a yes. And. And we, we asked a panel once, what's it like if this is if your wife is available for sex on demand, what's it that like for you? And one of the men who is married to one of our graduates, he said, it feels like we're having sex all the time, even when we're not.

Wow.

Yes.

That's awesome. Yeah.

So just knowing that she was a yes totally freed up his sexual expression. He doesn't have to be careful and watch for the sign.

Right.

He can just be sexual and it doesn't have to lead to intercourse. It doesn't have to be a request. It's play. It's. It's loverness.

So what's the impact of a woman being a no on a man? Like, how does it impact the men in our lives or the men, whatever? I mean, I guess you could be sleeping with more than one. Only sleeping with one. But.

Yeah, I mean, polyamory is probably. It's vying for the second most asked about question for me these days.

Really?

Yeah. Yeah, it's so okay, whatever's happening, or maybe I just Seem like someone that, you know, seems safe to talk to you about sex until I get that question. But yeah. So man or men? And it is an important distinction because the effect of a woman's no depends on whether or not she is the sole source of sex that he is, has agreed to.

Okay, let's go with that. Let's go with the sole source.

The sole source. Okay, so if you're in a monogamous relationship, that's the assumption or the agreement or the promise or the vow of the relationship, then you are the only place that he has agreed to fulfill the primary human instinct. It's actually the primary instinct for every species. But as humans, we have not, we have not escaped it. So procreate is the most highly energized compulsion for human beings, like other species. And, and for men, it shows up in sex drive. It also shows it in everything they build. And for women, it shows up in sex drive when we're ovulating.

And.

And, and for most women, a very strong relationship to babies and having babies and holding babies and circling newborn babies, stealing babies. You know, so it shows up like that. And it also shows up in, you know, our addiction to chemistry. So, so when you're the sole source, it the another, the easiest way to think about it is food. So imagine that you were the only place that someone could get fed and they're hungry and you said, no, there's no food. But it's not that there's no food. It's yes, there's food, but you can't have any. And they do actually much better when there's no food. Like the six weeks after the baby's born. And they're not supposed to. Right. You know, they actually do better in. And there's evidence that shows that men after the birth of a child have hormones that release in their body that suppress their sex drive. Oh, wow. Yes. See, that's partnership, right? Our hormones are even in partnership. So yeah, it's like, okay, I'm only going to eat at your restaurant and you're closed just because you don't feel like being open. It's not convenient for you to be open. Can I just have, can I have a snack? You know, that's where cookies come from. Okay, you're not gonna cook for me, you're not gonna create a smorgasbord, we're not gonna have a buffet, we're not gonna have a 10 course dinner. How about Cheez? Its, you know, how about I just sneak in the fridge for a few minutes and then I'll be on my way. And, and so that's just at the physical level. So the physical level of a need, a hunger that the longer it goes without being met is getting larger, it's getting more insistent and it's becoming a real distraction. So men get really upset when the lack of sex is interrupting their ability to focus on other things. And yeah, it's really bad. And it's, it's like when you're hungry, you just, you can't do anything else. You just have to find food.

Right.

So it interrupts their ability to produce the results. I really care about. The other thing that happens is it hurts. And I'm not talking about blue balls, I'm talking about emotionally. Because what he's hearing is, no, I don't want to connect with you. This goes back to the first part of our conversation, right? No, I don't want to connect with you. What? You know, and we think men, you know, are afraid of intimacy. What? He wants to connect and we're saying, no, I don't want to connect with you. And they feel rejected, they feel emotionally rejected, they feel physically rejected. They also have a kind of thing that goes on that we might not like it, but it's just, it's how they're wired, is they can feel cheated. Like, well, wait a second, I have a job, I go to work, I have a paycheck, I'm an honorable person, I treat you nice, I don't hate you. Don't I deserve sex? You know, or maybe I don't have a job, but look at how I keep the house clean or take care of the kids. Shouldn't I get sex for that? Like, to them there's kind of a didn't I earn it? I haven't done, haven't I done enough to get that in? And you know, what that tells you is sex is a really, really important language of appreciation for men. A currency of appreciation. It's how they feel appreciated and how they feel supported. So the nos hurt so much that in long term relationships, men become really careful to not ask until they're sure it's going to be a yes. Because the nose are terrible. So they're always watching for signs that she wants to have sex. And this is why, like lingerie can get you pounced upon. If you only put on lingerie when you want to have sex, it's a green light on your forehead, you know, you're not going to get rejected.

Right?

Right. Or, or, you know, we have a joke about, yeah, we have a joke about Liam Brizendine discovered that it's hard for women to have orgasms if their feet are cold, which is why women tend to tuck their feet under the covers when they decided to go for the climax. Right. And what we. What we call catching fish with your bare hands. Yeah. Leslie Rice came up with that. Yeah. Orgasms can be like catching fish with your hands. They can be difficult. And so we have a joke. Like, you know, forget lingerie. You could just have, like, your pink fuzzy socks are your invitation. When I have these on, I am a yes. That's my signal to you. Even if I'm too embarrassed to ever ask for sex, that's my signal.

Right. That is awesome. Yeah. Because it's a. There's like a vulnerability on both ends. Right. Of asking for sex.

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

Which is why, if you decide, as part of your enterprise, I am your sexual provider, if I can, I will. I will work it out. And if they're the same way, then you take out that fear factor.

Right.

And. And now you. You just have. You know, like, one time I asked Greg for sex, and he. He was so sick. He. He was. He was so upset. He's like, I just can't. I'm so sorry. And he was so upset about not being able to that I now become really considerate. Like, I'm making sure that I'm asking when he's not physically wiped out, because that just seems mean. And so once you know your partner's a yes, then consider being considerate of them can kick in. And there's another one more thing I'd like to say, if I want. If I could, is this. Definitely want to. Is. Women worry so much about being attractive that we completely miss that. Men want to be attractive to us. Especially your man wants to be attractive to you. And that's why, if you're gonna keep it juicy, you have to flirt. To me, Flirting. Flirting is the communication. I want you. You are totally wantable. Right? So you have to. You have to. You have to flirt. That lets him know that he's attractive to you, and he has to feel attractive to you. And this may sound bad, and I'm sorry for any panic it causes, if he doesn't feel like he's attractive to you, he's gonna go flirt with other women. Even if he has no intention of ever going any further, he'll go flirt. In order to have the feeling of being attractive to somebody, he. He needs that. That energy exchange, that little sexual tingle exchange that says you are attractive. And it's something we total men were so fixated on being attracted to them. And there's another panel. It was so great. It's like, what do you find attractive in a woman? This man says that she finds me attractive.

That is classic.

Awesome. And so I have a friend who. She's so great. They've been married for, I think, 16 years, maybe 17 years. And every time she answers the phone, she says, hi, sexy man. And. And. And he has the life that goes with that. They have a. They have a close and intimate union, you know, which is one of the definitions of marriage. And.

And.

But she's always flirting with him. She's always letting him know how hot he is, and he actually owns it. We call him the sexiest man in Colorado. And.

And he.

Yeah, he. He owns it. And. But Greg, who's, like, really, really low toned, you know, like, about sexuality, you should just see him light up. When the other day he went up the stairs, he had his bike, his motorcycle shorts on, and I was like, wow, sexy legs. The next thing you know, I see him coming down the stairs, having hiked his shorts up even higher.

Oh, my gosh. That's so great.

He's 64 years old. Right. And he does have really amazing legs. And. But you think at some point in their life, they don't need that feedback? Never. Is it over?

That is awesome. Yeah. I mean, I love that it's such a great distinction. And I think about it, too, that with my husband, you know, it's like how many times I, like, say those things. Like, it's just. It's not part of our culture of, like, letting our men feel attractive and flirting with them and say, you look great. We're usually concerned about how we look. Yeah, Very interesting.

We don't know how vulnerable they are to us when they've chosen us. Oh, my gosh. They're just to have so little protection. So little protection from us once they've picked us. And we don't. We don't appreciate that. Mm.

Okay, so I'm curious on this. Flirty. You know, you've been married. What did you say, 20 years? 20.

21 year.

21. So there's the initial, like you were saying, the chemistry. Flirty. You know, the sexual energies flow in. You know, there's all the cocktail. And then over the years, is this. This is something that you have to cultivate or you. Is this a choice that you've made to flirt with him, or it just feels natural for you to flirt with him? What's the. Do you know what I'm asking?

Yeah, I do. I. Just for accuracy, I have to say there wasn't chemistry in the beginning, which I. I think is one of the most important things for men and women to wrap their head around. Yes. I mean, Greg, he knows this. He's heard this story a million times. Greg's not my type, or at least what my type was back when I was 30 years old. But there was this tremendous resonance, like this recognition of spirit to spirit. And I was attracted to him, but I wasn't physically attracted to him. I. I was just drawn to. Just want to be around him and talk to him and reveal myself to him and find out who he is. Like this curiosity about this being. And I. And then. And so I was willing to go with that because somebody giving me some advice, you know, look for resonance. I'm like, okay, I'm going to go out with that great guy. And then we were on, I think it was our first motorcycle date because he wanted me to be his girlfriend. And I wouldn't tell. He took me for a motorcycle ride because I didn't want to be in love with someone who is a crazy motorcycle rider. And. And we were sitting in this restaurant and he did this thing that just took my breath away. I sat down in the booth and he came and sat next to me, like, oh, he wants to be near me, right? And then he had his hands in front of me because he's on my side, right? And for the first time, I noticed his hands. He has sexy hands. And honestly, I had a physical reaction to his hands. And then that's when I noticed what I call the Adam Sandler effect. That. That someone who's not your type can grow on you and become sexy in your eyes, especially if you're willing for them to. So, you know, now that was, I think, gosh, 23 years ago, almost. It. Now, what I do, I feed the Adam Sandler effect. So I intentionally notice the things about Greg that turn me on. So these ultra muscular legs, these muscles that pop out in his shoulders. He has a very manly nose. I like his nose, You know, in this, you know, this burnliness about him. This, like, he's big and strong and he's a really cute butt. And so I. So I focus on those things that do it for me instead of focusing on the things that don't, which, of course, there aren't any.

That's awesome.

But that's a. That's the problem women will have, is they'll focus on what doesn't do it, then, like, if they're the. If they're the one third of men, of women, they're the one third of women who don't like a shaved head. Right. About two thirds of women get turned on by the Yul Brenner look. But I'm aging myself right now. Yule Brenner. Let's see who was next. Karima Abdul Jabbar. I don't know who had the next shaved head.

But.

But, you know, about two thirds of women are turned down by that, and about a third are not. Like, ew, bald. Ew. Like, any kind of baldness. They just hate. I'm like, okay, so if you can't stand bald, quit looking at his head. Seriously, look at his eyes, look at his smile. Look someplace else. You can do that.

Right? And that works on, like, the. Even the little quirks that they have too. Right. We, like, you can tend to focus on, oh, they do this, they do that. Versus, like, okay, what do they do? Great, you know?

Yes. Yeah. We women definitely, I think, have more of a weakness of this. We were more glass half full, and I mean half empty, then half full. We pay attention. We see what isn't beautiful to us. Like, it jumps out at us. Anything that's messy or agree or out of place. And it's just part of the way that our brains work. And it unfortunately works that way in relationship too. And there's some people who are not me that I think are great about this that I would recommend. One is Ariel Ford and Bobby Sabi. Love. Right. So it's all about transforming those little things that drive you crazy and into something else. You redefine it. You make up a new story about it so that it empowers you instead of disempowers you. And then Linda Sivertson and the new girlfriend app. Have you heard about that?

Oh, I have, yeah.

Yeah. So Linda edited all of my books and love her, and she created a girlfriend app so that women could stop going with, like, the sense of something and instead have some accurate data about good day, bad day. Yes, yes. It's really smart because. Because for women, it takes like, you know, 30 good things to outweigh one bad thing. And I don't know, we're just tremendously weighted in that way. And, you know, and it's part of our instinct too, you know, the criticism of one woman. It takes like, a thousand affirmations to make up for it, you know? But yeah, so her girlfriend app is a way of tracking. So that you have some factual representation of how is this really going? Instead of, you know, you have one day where he doesn't text you at all and you think it's the end of the world.

Right? That's awesome. I love that. Thank you for those resources. It is really funny. My. My husband will say I, I tend to lean towards a little sensitive and I'll say something and I just, like, I think he's attacking me or whatever. And he's like, hey, babe, I'm your ally. Like, we're in this together. We're in this together. Like, I'm not trying to hurt you, but it's just funny. Like. And then my mind goes to, oh, he did that yesterday.

Yesterday, the day before.

And he's always doing this. And I, you know, you just have to, like, put yourself in check. Like, no, he doesn't always do this. Okay, so the app is great. That's fantastic.

And I. What you're saying, that conscious choice to talk yourself off of that press.

I.

Mean, those are the things that partnership requires. We call it. I call it your part or the self cleaning oven. You know that whenever you get twisted, whenever you get your feelings hurt, whenever you feel disrespected. Well, start with what's your part? I actually had a thing with Greg this morning. He said something to me. Can we swear in this class?

Yeah, go for it.

Okay. He said something to me and I was like, wow, that was really shitty. And then he walked away, and I walked away. And he was like, right, we're so glad to find out this actually happens to Greg. And I. But then I was like, okay, wait a second. And I was like, I could have. My whole day could have been colored by that, you know, and like, get all steamed up about it. And the funny thing is I had a lot of work to do. I'm like, I can't afford this. And so I started looking at. All right, so he is not a shitty man. He's not a shitty person. What did I do that brought that out? What did I have to do with it? And. And I could see what I had to do with it. And that when in the thing that I did, when he does it to me, I am serious. Okay, yeah, that wouldn't be fair.

And.

And so I went to him and could we talk? And he's so cute. He goes, yes, but first can I say I'm sorry? I'm sorry for being shitty. And I said, I'm so sorry for whatever I did that had to be shitty. And he Started to cry. Oh, yeah. He's a much better apologizer than I am. I'm the one that's always right, you.

Know.

Which I actually usually am, which is pretty funny. But for me, I think I totally blew his mind by saying that I'm sorry about that out in you. So, yeah, like, what you did to that was your part in the partnership to look and see. Okay, wait a second. He doesn't always do this.

Very interesting. Yeah, like, I love that too. Just the different way of looking at it. Like, what did I. What did you bring to it? Like, who was I being that that's how he showed up for me.

And that's where my research started in 1991 was when my friend was called a frog farmer, which is a woman who turns princes into frogs. And the whole premise was, what if I'm bringing out the worst in men? And that's when I started studying men, was to figure out how was I doing that? Because I was a completely normal woman. I just did what every other woman did. And we all thought men were jerks. What if I was causing it? And, you know, as you know, we found out a whole bunch of ways that men aren't responding to women that were actually not causing it. And. And so, you know, we have a lot of recordings about information like that, like the amazing development of men or the Keys, the kingdom book, you know, and. But then there's a whole other way, whole set, other set where men are definitely responding to us. That's not out of the blue the way we think it is. There was a cause and effect here that you can completely change your results if you get a hold of it.

That's amazing. Yeah. Like, you could flirt, right?

You could flirt sexy as a man. You're cute. But.

Yeah, that's always really hard for me when you're, like, in it or you feel irritated. I'm like, I know I have a different choice, and I'm trying to be right. And I can totally lighten it up. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. But it's just so great to know that we have that choice to be able to choose a different response.

Yeah. And that, I think, has been the centerpiece of what I've been for the last 20 years, is trying to find the moments where you could choose something other than your normal reaction. Where are the moments of choice? And if you. If you understand how much what you're compelled to do is because of human instinct or male or female instinct, instead of you as an individual. Right. When you think it will, but this is me, then we want to be righteous and protected, right? But when we're like, oh, this is such a girl reaction. This is my ovaries talking or. Right? So when you know, this is my gender, this is my species reacting this way, then. Then those moments of choice are easier. You're not. Because you're not having to protect your reaction or defend it or be right about it. It's like, oh, that's just instinct, not what my life's about. And we're starting a telecast tonight that'll then be available on our web called why Men Lie, why Women Lie. And it's all about how human instinct pulls for lying.

Wow. Fascinating.

Exactly. Lying is the most. One of the most natural things for a human being to do.

To protect. Why do we lie?

Well, it's so great that you said protect. So it's so funny, I just thought of that expression. Born liar. He's a born liar. Well, guess what? We all are. We're born liars. Well, it's actually all the major instincts. So we lie to procreate, we lie to protect, and we lie to provide. You know, those are the procreate, then protect, then provide. That's the order of instinct. And we lie for all three of them. And then the other thing we'll be looking at is when you perceive a threat, you go into fight, flight, or freeze. Right? Just like, you know, we're part of the animal kingdom, fight or freeze. And so we'll be distinguishing what is the fight liar response. Right. And you actually brought it up earlier. One of the fight lies is you always exaggeration is a fight lie.

That's hilarious.

And then there's the flight lie, which, you know, there's many flight lies, but they. They have to do with saying whatever will allow you to escape. Right? And then there's the freeze lie, which often is just lying by omission. It's just you completely disagree. What they're saying is totally get your principles and you just clam up.

I never do that. I never do that one. Never.

Never ever. Are you kidding?

I'm kidding. My husband calls it the stone wall. He's like, okay, do we have the stone wall? Are you open to d. I just. I'm like, I'm. I. I don't want to talk about it. He's like, we're in the middle of a conversation. I'm like, I'm done. He's like, okay.

I think I'm falling in love with Brian. That's awesome.

It's pretty awesome. It's so great how your partner, like, the partners that we pick, like, they like. He's so perfect for my insecurities, for ways that I would get away with it with other men. Like, my crap. Literally. I just can't get away with it with him. Like, he just, you know, it's just. It's amazing, you know, for the good and for the bad, we have, you know, the dark side of our crap. But it's. It's really cool just to see that when you do have that partnership and enterprise, that commitment, what you can create.

Yes. And it's. It's great what you're saying, because I. I try to tell men this a lot. As women, instinctively, our biggest concern is, am I safe? Am I safe? Am I safe? Am I safe? And our worst enemy is ourselves. You know, that our crap, that's what's the most terrifying, is what we can generate all by ourselves. And so when a man stands up to our own monkey business, I think that's when we really fall in love with them. That's when we're like, oh, my gosh, you could save me from me. It's what we need the most. Which is why I recommend that for a man, if a woman is like a seven or above on the sexual attraction run, just run in the opposite direction because he won't stand up to her. His own chemical sexual attraction will prevent him from engaging his spirit and his intellect and his emotions that. That has him say, oh, cut it out. Right. Unless he just treats her like an object, which is then another kind of icky.

Wow, that's very interesting, huh?

So very cool.

Cool.

Really important in. Greg always thanks me for remembering who he is. You always know who I am. If you can't trust each other to call bullshit, this is not who you are, then your partnership's really limited.

Okay, so I'm curious on the calling the bullshit and which. I know you talk about the feelings, you know, our feeling center. So where's the, like, calling our BS and then our feelings getting hurt? Well, can you just. Can you elaborate a little bit on that and why feelings are so important and. Yeah, why.

Just talk about that wow for a little bit. Okay, let me see if I can do that for a little bit.

I know. Then we're going to wrap up. Yes. It's a big topic. I know. I'm sorry to open it up. It just popped up.

Yeah, well, but it's great. Since we're talking about partnership, understanding how we get hurt is really Important because if you don't understand it happens and you can't be counted on to tell your partner when you need help, or can't be counted on to help your partner when they can't recover themselves, then the partnership's going to be really limited. So this would be the opposite of the self cleaning oven, right? So that self cleaning oven is. I'll do all my part that I can. But sometimes, you know, you've looked at how you exaggerated, it wasn't really true. Yes, I said something to cause that, but I still hurt. Even though I caused it, I still hurt in all my understanding. It's making it better, but it's. There's still this thing in my chest that has me not want to flirt, not be sexual, not be connected, not snuggle, not be close, not like you. Even though it was my fault, I don't like you. You know how that happens, right?

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah. And so, so you know me, the engineer, right? Taking it all apart. So what we figured out is somebody does something, right? Something happens. Said, not said, done, not said. And then it's perceived fairly instantaneously. But it can take a while too, through a filter of what would that mean if I'd done it right? So we see it from our point of view, what would that mean if I had done that? And then the result can be that for the feminine that your feelings are hurt and for the masculine that you feel dishonored in some way. So you were disrespected, you're betrayed, you were blown off, disregarded, ignored. There's a whole set of masculine and, and in both cases, affinity, love, generosity, cooperation, communication gets shut down, right? It can crash the system. And our willingness to say, ouch, help. You know, I've self cleaned as much as I can, but I'm still left with this in my chest. And for women, it'll be in the center of her chest. For a man, it'll be in the upper part of his chest, like vice, clavicle, our feelings aren't in the same place. And, and so asking for that help, could you, could you say you're sorry that you hurt my feelings? Could you apologize for disrespecting me? And, and that's one of the like the most magnificent and the most difficult things in a partnership is to just honor that person's experience that came from their interpretation, right? From a very small maybe instigator on our part, right? Catalysts on our part, and to just be willing to just honor them. That it. Even if I didn't mean to hurt them. They're hurt. And, and be willing to own it. And that's the trick. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. And it just goes away. And, and for the masculine, which is just as hard to do because I'll look in my body and I cannot find a single ounce of disrespect. In my body, I can't find a feeling of disrespect. And if there's no feeling of disrespect, how could I possibly have disrespected him? But still, in his world, he was disrespected. And so to restore my partner, to say, I'm sorry I disrespected you. And what I have to do is then is even go further to reach over and understand why, in his experience, was that disrespect. And some of my best lessons about men have been finding out why that was disrespect for them. And I think it's amazing, an important thing for men to do, too. So why did that hurt your feelings? Why did that mean that to you? Oh, my gosh. I was late home on anniversary and that meant I'm not happy to be married to you. Besides that being kind of crazy, I am so sorry that you would ever think that. That you do not know in every bone in your body how thrilled I am to be married to you. So we can take those really, really awful moments in and have them be another way that we're revealed to each other and have that intimacy and then that tenderness and care for each other that I think you were talking about.

Mmm. Wow. Amazing healing. Powerful. So good.

Wonderful to know how to heal each other.

Yes.

And it's when we're teaching men how to say, I'm sorry hurt your feelings. And they're like, they're so afraid of hurting women's feelings. And the rage monster, then the fire breathing dragon of all the exaggeration spewing out of her mouth because her whole system is crashing. They're just, they're terrified of it. And I just always tell them, you do not have to be afraid. You do not have to be afraid of hurting a woman's feelings. You can count on, you're going to hurt a woman's feelings. So just get good at handling it because it is going to happen. The sun is going to shine and a woman's feelings are going to get hurt. And you know, thankfully, women who take our curriculum don't interpret what men do from what it would mean if a woman did it? So their feelings get hurt less and less and less.

Right, Totally.

That still happens.

Yep.

20, 20 some odd years, 23 years I've been studying men. I still get my feelings hurt, which is helpful.

It's good. Good for us newbies to know that it's a journey.

Yeah, I still get my feelings hurt. I still do things that disrespect him. Man, human beings are complicated.

That's awesome. Wonderful. Well, can you please share where people can find more about you? You know, sign up for your courses and buy your books and, you know, connect to all your juicy goodness?

Sure. And thank you. The easiest way is to go to understandmen.com and that has all our programs, all our recordings, a ton of free stuff, you know, umpteen interviews and articles and all kinds of stuff there. If people want to come be with me, there's a tab that says see Allison Live. And they'll, you know, see all the places in the country that I'm teaching something and what the prerequisites are and. And they can sign up for free information. In September, I'm starting a podcast so people get the latest and greatest little ditties in like five or six minutes worth of the time.

Sign me up.

Yeah, it's, yes, free. It's going to go out to our whole mailing list.

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for, you know, do your 23 years of research and sharing it with all of us and helping us create powerful partnerships to transform the world.

You're welcome. You're welcome. It's definitely my privilege and also my compulsion, so you're helping me. I'd have to be in a street corner on a box with a sign.

That is awesome. All right, thank you.

Thanks, Ellie.

Standard. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mama Goddess. Sending you lots of love and blessings. If you'd like to connect more, go to mamagoddess.com until next time, keep rocking it and have an awesome day.