Diaper Free! with Ingrid Bauer

Welcome to Mama Goddess. I'm your host, Alexandra J. Johnson. This podcast is all about rocking your goddess life, creating vibrant health and celebrating motherhood and family life. It's about living an authentically awesome life. Let's have some fun.

Hello, I'm Alexandra J. Johnson and today's guest is Ingrid Bauer. Ingrid has been teaching and writing about compass parenting for over two decades. She is trilingual and although she has honors degree in language, literature and theater, she considers life, relationships, travel, nature and parenting to be her primary teachers. She is an activist for unhindered births and breastfeeding, a non violent communications certified trainer, and also the author of Diaper Free. She is a mother of four children and is dedicated to sharing compassionate communication with parents and families. Welcome, Ingrid.

Thank you, Alexandra. I'm glad to be here. Yes.

I'm so thrilled to be chatting with you. And your Diaper Free book was one of the first bunch of books that I bought like two years ago when my husband and I were preparing for our family. So I'm very, very excited to be talking with you. I'd love to start off with your Diaper Free book. So what is Diaper Free and what inspired you to write the book?

Yeah, well, Diaper Free, it's a name that I kind of chose to be a little bit provocative for the title of the book. For me, it kind of holds a lot of pictures. It doesn't necessarily mean never using diapers, which is sometimes how people interpret it and sometimes how people actually practice it, which is great too. But it really means being free of needing to rely on diapers and also for the children to have a sense of freedom in their body. And that's why I like that word. But the practice that I end up coining the phrase elimination communication for, and also natural infant hygiene, I think is what you're referring to. And by that I mean a practice that's been around for millennia before we invented diapers and is now coming into a new movement again as people are moving to a more natural way of raising children. And that's about tuning into your child's elimination needs so that you can respond to them in the moment rather than having them use their clothing or diapers as a toilet and then cleaning up after the fact and sometimes a long time after the fact. So that's kind of the basic premise of what it is. Does that answer enough of your question? Yeah.

And did you do this with four of your children?

I did not. I have four children and my first was raised in cloth diapers. Conventionally cloth diapers until he was well over three because it was a challenge. He wanted to be out of diapers earlier and challenging. Actually, that happened for him in a way that really worked. So he never actually wasn't a disposable diaper, but he did use cloth diapers through all those years. And then the following three children I used elimination communication with and I asked you how did I get started on it really was with the birth of my second son. And I was really looking at in general and with my partner together. I'd always been interested, even before I had kids, I guess, in what was nature's way. I have a lot of trust that the way things happen in the natural world and in more earth based cultures tend to correspond pretty closely to our needs as human beings. I was really trying to understand that around birth, around breastfeeding, around infant care in general. Of course, diapers are a huge part of infant care in this culture. So I began asking myself the question that I hadn't even thought to ask with my first child. Do we really need diapers? My partner was part of that too. And at the time, I had a friend who had told me about having traveled in india and seeing all these babies without diapers and reminded me that, oh my gosh, I traveled in india too, and had noticed all these naked babies and never really paid attention to, here are these moms and their beautiful saris and they seem to be clean. And so I began to ask questions. I began to kind of think about it, look at it method. Somebody who had practiced a sort of modified version of elimination communication Heard about natech in hawaii who had written a brief photocopied booklet that she called elimination timing. And it kind of went from there. As soon as I really got that it was possible, I just decided I was going to do it. And that was about the extent of the information I had. So when my son was born, I just was watching and tuning in and kept paying attention. And of course, he was with me all the time Because I wore him on my body and was breastfeeding on. I just began to notice something I hadn't noticed before Just because I hadn't.

Thought to pay attention to it, right?

And by the time he was about three months old or so, I realized that I was really tuned into his elimination pattern. I'm outside one morning and made a cueing sound and he just went. And it was like, wow, I get this and he gets it and we could do this. And so I just did it with him really without any guidance, I didn't have a computer. The Internet was pretty young, and there really wasn't anything on the Internet about it even still. And so when he was about eight months old or so, I decided I was going to write an article. It because I'm also a writer. And that article just grew and grew and grew and grew. And suddenly I realized I had a book. So I published that.

That's so great. And it's so, you know, I mean, when I first heard about it, I was like, oh, that kind of sounds.

Weird, you know, but then when you.

Start reading your book and just feeling into it, it seems to make sense. Like, why would we train our children to go to the bathroom in their pants and then have to retrain them to not go in their diapers? Yeah.

And the really funny thing for me is I didn't discuss this a lot with my parents at the beginning. I lived quite far away from my parents and saw them maybe twice a year. We came out to visit, and when my mom did come out, my son was really quite a few months along already in this. She wasn't surprised at all. She had immigrated to Canada as a new immigrant and didn't have the support of family or friends around her. And she just thought to herself, gosh, babies probably don't feel very comfortable wearing diapers. And she just started putting me on a potty and sitting with me, and I was out of diapers at about one year old.

That's so great.

She said, well, I started something like this with you, and that was just so wonderful. Coming a little bit from a different perspective with her. And then I did include a picture of myself in the book where I'm about 1 years old and diapers on.

That's so great. So what is the. You've been doing this and teaching this. What's the benefits for somebody who's listening to this? And it seems maybe they're interested or it seems a little far out. Like, what are the benefits?

I'm crazy at this point.

Right, right. Like, what is she talking about?

The baby is looking for me. The benefits are for me. There's so many. And I find that over and over again when I come back to something that's really in alignment with how I see the natural world flowing, I'm always amazed how it may start out with one benefit or just wanting to be in integrity and. And more and more things come up for me. So I'm going to name a few of them. I think for me at the time. And a really Big piece of it is really wanting to be in tune with my child's needs and responding to their needs in the moment. That's really big for me and continues to be big for me throughout my parenting. So really about responding to the child's needs, being able to communicate with the child and let them know that I'm attuned to what's up for them and I'm responding to them. That's a really huge piece. And really letting my children know that they matter and they're cared for and they're listened to and that their voices count. That's one piece. And then really looking at the child's physical comfort in terms of those needs, I think it's the easiest thing when I ask for people, when they think this is crazy. I said, well, imagine yourself. Would you rather have to eliminate into a diaper and then sit in that diaper until somebody discovers it, or would you like to be helped in a way so that you don't have to do that, don't have to eliminate into your own clothing?

That puts it into perspective.

Yeah. There's the comfort aspect, there's a physical health aspect, the hygiene aspect, the no diaper rash aspect. Huge part for me also is in the environmental impact. A child using disposable diapers puts approximately three quarters of a ton to a ton of waste into a landfill for that one child. Wow. And there's also environmental impacts even of using cloth diapers. And so there's that environmental impact that's really important to me. There's the movement, the freedom of movement for the child to be able to be really free to move in their body as they are with just light clothing rather than a bulky diaper, even a so called lighter diaper, which still is not that comfortable and inhibits the movement a bit. Be free in the belly not to have something strapped across their belly to hold the diaper on, because we all know how easily those diapers fall off or can be removed. And even though in the shorter picture it seems like it's a lot more work. And I would say that for me, parenting isn't about that kind of short term convenience. It never has been. That's not why I had children. And at the same time, in the longer run, for me it's far less work, far more convenient, both for myself and for the child. Far less work and learning for myself and for the child. In the longer, in the bigger picture.

You have the initial kind of learning it, but then after that it's easy.

Yeah. And that's been my whole experience with parenting. If you put that real care and attention in at the outset and really at the beginning, it becomes easier and easier and more and more enjoyable. And then there's also the aspect of saving money. And then there is also the aspect if you really want to stand out amongst your friends.

That's awesome.

Very cool.

So it sounds like there are a lot of benefits.

I know.

I listen to it. I'm like, of course. It just makes sense. So what do you have? Like, obviously people can purchase your book and learn, go in depth in it, but do you have three steps? So somebody listening, they're like, oh my gosh, I want to try this. Do you have anything like how they can start implementing it today?

Sure. Yeah. I identify in my book because I was trying. For me, it's all so integrated, and I didn't have any of this kind of way of looking at it when I did it with my first son. But when people were saying, I want to learn this. You need to communicate this to me, I identified three steps that are all kind of tied together, but also individual that people can focus on to help them with it. And one is body language and signals. Watching their babies. A lot of times we know, for example, when a baby has to poop because they kind of bear down and grunt. I'm always surprised how many people look at a baby and say, oh, look, they're going to the bathroom, but they don't do anything about it, Right? So watching that body language is one looking at timing. This is something that's used in particular cultures, one of the main ones they rely on. Almost all babies need to pee, for example, as soon as they awaken. There's an action, peristaltic action in the intestines that stimulates babies to eliminate a certain amount of time after nursing or feeding. The watching timing patterns is another. Giving sound cues or body cues. Holding a baby in a particular position and giving a sound cue. Very, very common throughout many, many cultures. Often to give a sound cue that sounds like water, like shirts, or something like that. Sometimes people use also different cues for bowel movements, the cueing, and then also just really listening to your inner voice, to intuition. The four would be body signals, timing, cueing. And. And if I said if I were to give folks one tip of how they could start, I would say just pick one time of day, like the very early morning when your child awakens, that feels easeful. And when your child is most likely to need to eliminate and hold them in a place that would be appropriate for you and give them a cueing sound and see what happens and just be very consistent with that and then begin to add more in as you feel more comfortable. Anytime you do notice them eliminating, make the cueing sound to let them know that you understand what's going on.

That's awesome. So some people might be thinking, and I'm thinking too, that there's like you need to, if you're not going to have anything around the baby, no diapers, no nothing, that you need to kind of be watching your baby all the time, do you need to kind of be with the baby all the time? Like what if you're not holding the baby? How does that work? Yeah.

And so I think for me, because of my particular situation, which is that I really started with the three of my children I did this with at birth. I was holding the baby all the time, or whether I was holding them or they were in a sling or my partner was holding them. So for me that's a big benefit of starting as early as possible. And I know some people are finding out about this as their children are older or they're just overwhelmed for certain reasons. I think if you're struggling with breastfeeding or just keeping yourself feeling good enough, for me that's way more important than focusing on the diaper piece. So they may be starting later, even if they heard about it in advance. But if you can at all possible, the earlier you start, when you still really are holding the baby all the time, the better. Because by the time they do begin to get more mobile, you've already established a really clear communication and you're quite aware, whether it's by timing or intuition or whatever, you're quite aware of what's going on. And if you are starting later and you're not comfortable giving the baby, I mean, it's so great if the children can have as much diaper free time as possible. But if it doesn't feel doable or comfortable or is just adding to your stress level, then by all means put the baby in a diaper that's really easily removable and use the diaper then as a backup. So I know people that start with elimination communication. They have the baby in diapers all the time, but the difference is that they're really using the diaper with an intention to have it just there as a backup so they don't feel stressed. Rather than relying on it as the toilet, you can remove it, even use the same diaper all day or go through one or two diapers a day, remove it, let the baby pee and then put it back on for your peace of mind. And again, if you can give them diaper free time, it's awesome. At one point, I never used diapers at home when my children are little, when they were in the sling, I usually had some kind of, well, I guess it was a diaper, a cloth or a pre fold diaper under them in there so that they wouldn't wet the sling or, or something like that. And I could take them out really quickly. Right. We used a diaper to go out and then at one point, usually around seven or eight months, we just switched to pants. My husband always says it's way easier to change a pair of pants than a diaper. And I can tell you from experience, when you're potty training a three year old, you have lots and lots of accidents and you go through lots of pants too, right?

So you're just doing it early, doing it earlier. So then if you get the signal, you notice and you're like, okay, my baby needs to go to the bathroom and you just hold them over. Can you talk about positioning and do.

You hold them over a toilet? Again, people have a lot of different things and one of the interesting things of being part of the beginning of bringing this movement back to the west is that I got to interview so many different parents who are learning about this and in their own ways and making it work for their own families and their own lifestyles and a lot of different things. So for myself personally, I always held my babies in a position, usually over a toilet or some kind of receptacle or outdoors. I happen to live rurally, so it was easy for me to do against my body. So their back is against my belly and my hands are under their knees lifting them up. So they're somewhat in a kind of a. Not exactly crouching, but they're kind of hanging from hands, holding them under the knees with their back against my belly. Is that clear enough? Yeah. And so in that position and then when they were sitting on their own and could move on their own, then I moved them and eventually they wanted to just try a potty and then try the big toilet. Some people start using by sitting infants already on potties from very small and sit with them and support them on the potty, either by sitting behind them, supporting them, or being in front of them and holding them under the arms, supporting them. I think that's a personal lifestyle thing. I really enjoyed having the baby against my body and I also communicated with them Sometimes just through my body, especially when they needed to poop. If I just really breathed deeply and then relaxed my body, I noticed that my children often at that moment would relax and open, you know, to do what they need to do.

That's amazing. It's amazing how we impact our children by our physical and emotional mental state.

Yeah, very cool.

So then what about the wiping and the cleaning? Do they need to be wiped? What do you do for that?

I think again that's a personal and lifestyle decision and choice. What I tended to do is after they were done, I would, I seem to be good at one handed parenting. Who knows, because I have four kids, there's so much to do. I don't know, but I would, instead of holding them under two hands, I would kind of grab them under one arm with my arm under both knees. So they were now kind of in the crook of my arm with their knees up and I would just give them a quick wash at the sink and, and pat dry with a towel. And some people wipe with paper, some people don't wipe for pee and different things. And some people use wipes. I can tell you again from experience that the wiping is so much less that it doesn't even seem like you're wiping compared to changing a diaper, which is also of course so much sweeter for the baby's skin.

Yeah, I love that too. And you talk about it in your book too. The diaper rash and the irritation that's so common for most children, they just don't have that.

Something like 95% of diaper children go through that at some point. Wow, that's incredible.

And we don't think like maybe these diapers aren't working for this little baby's.

No, no. We used to think, oh, we need a new and improved and more expensive diaper that will be better.

Right? And the diaper cream.

Exactly.

It's so great. I love too like you brought up the benefit of the planet, but then also the cost. You're not paying for the diapers and you're not paying for the diaper rash cream and this and that. It's just simple.

Yeah, very cool.

So what about the babies? How often do the babies go to the bathroom? Does it vary baby to baby?

I think that's true. It varies baby to baby. It varies very much. On diet has also been something that I learned a lot about. I just was looking at our own family. But as I began to really interview and expand and teach other people and hear back from other people, I see that Diet has a huge impact especially seems to be also on bedwetting at.

Night.

And also climate. And some people will notice as if they travel as I have from more. I'm in a temperate rainforest right now. Traveling to a hotter, drier climate. Babies will eliminate less. And it's also a way to start paying attention to whether they're getting enough fluids. But even when they're getting enough fluids, they'll eliminate less. So the timing, of course, when they're newborn, it's much, much more frequent. It's just kind of like nursing. And some babies again have a lot of different patterns. Some babies are nursing every 20 minutes when they're newborn and some babies are nursing every hour and a half when they're newborn. And you get the very, very occasional unusual baby who's nursing every three or four hours. And it's very similar with eliminating. They may be eliminating every. It might seem to you like every five minutes, but probably if you really pay attention. But it might be as frequently as my pattern that I remember is they tended to eliminate quite frequently in the morning, even like every 20 minutes or half an hour. And then it slowed to maybe about every hour or so in the afternoon and began to shift a little. And that's when they're newborn. And again, as they grow older, just as with nursing, there's usually longer periods of time between until they're really able to hold. And what happens is that they're able to develop their sphincters because what happens with the babies is they're not learning to hold in the way. When you're potty training a three year old, you're usually training them to pay attention, that they need to go and then hold it in until they get somewhere. What's happening with an infant and that usually doesn't begin to develop that really intense holding in until they're over a year. But what's happening with an infant is that you're helping them become aware that they need to go and you're helping them release at an appropriate time. And so it's actually a different mechanism. And as they begin to do that, they also begin to develop that sphincter. When they can voluntarily release it, then they also become aware of being able to hold it. And that develops much earlier than. Yeah. And so I think by seven or eight months old I could feel quite comfortable to be able. If I took my baby to pee before I went somewhere and then went shopping, that I'd be fine for the trip.

That's so fascinating.

I love this.

Let's say because I'm expecting a baby soon. So then if you do start it at a newborn, do you just have kind of like containers all around the house and you're like continually just put containers around?

I have to say that that way I have an advantage of having quite a small house and it's all in concept. So most of the places that I am, except for up in the bedroom, I'm pretty close to the same area. So I didn't have to do that as much as some people who might have a bigger home. One family I met in Oregon several years ago were doing this really cool thing. They discovered they had a very tiny baby, but they discovered that a little yogurt container, sort of the 500 mil, the half size yogurt container fit like you could fit a little newborn butt right into it. Oh my gosh. They had all these little recycled yogurt containers just sitting in a corner. I usually had, I mean, often brought the baby when they were little, like when they were really little, usually brought them to the toilet or sometimes the sink or outside when Aiden was. We had a laundry tub, which was kind of a great thing in our home. But then as I got older, I also had potty. So I usually had one in the bedroom and then one or two in the main living areas that were a little farther apart.

Yeah, well, and then what about. Because I know, I mean, I've had people asking me when I say that I'm going to do this, they're like, well, what about the mess on the carpets and the floors and your clothes and the furniture? So can you address kind of messes?

Yeah, messes. Well, I kind of few things that come up for me. For one thing, I just want people to really clearly understand that elimination, communication and diaper free is not at all about just letting your child eliminate wherever they want to, whenever they want to, without any interaction with them, really about trying to support them to eliminate in places that are also hygienic and appropriate for your family so that they become a part of being part of the community and eliminating just like you would in a place that's appropriate for your culture.

Right.

And of course for us that doesn't include eliminating on people's clothing and on couches. And so the focus really is helping children and babies to stay clean in a way that works for everybody. So that's the first part. And at the same time, I want to acknowledge that as we're learning about this, I really noticed that the second child was so much easier I was hardly thinking about it. And the third child, I started working when she was seven weeks old and she was with me all the time when I was working. But I was pretty distracted elsewhere. And I still was able to do this in a way that I wouldn't have been with my first child. And partially it was that experience. It's partially the fact that I didn't grow up in a culture where everybody around me was doing this. So as we're learning this, I think it's so important to have a lot of kind of compassion and understanding for ourselves as well as for our children, that we're kind of relearning something without all of that support around us, without having watched it our entire lives, so that it's second nature. We're actually having to learn this and figure it out. And so there will be messes. And we also live in society and culture that makes it more difficult. We're less connected to the outdoors, for example. And so I think again, it's important for people to really look at what's true for them and what in their lifestyle. You know, if you have wooden floors and you're okay with having a rag around and wiping up a pee, as a lot of people probably would be okay with that. And again, it's something that's going to happen with a 2 year old and a 3 year old and a 4 year old and a 5 year old too. That's potty training conventionally, you know, to just do that. And then if it's really something that's going to create a lot of stress for you or you're concerned that you might have reaction of upset towards your child, by all means, please use a diaper. Use some other way of dealing with it that's going to let you be able to relax, to be present to your child, whether that's using a diaper, whether that's putting a mat over a certain area, whether that's thinking, okay, this is an old rug and we're going to rip it out or whatever it is, whatever it is that makes it work. I think it really is. Think about what's possible. Think about how you want to support your child's needs and your own needs and then do what you need to do that really responds in the best way for your particular family.

Yeah, because there's going to be a variety of different people listening in on this. And some people want to do it full on and some people. Can people benefit doing it on occasion or just doing it when they're home or they're like, you know, this sounds really great, but I have to go back to work after six weeks or whatever. Can you address that? And how can they still gain some benefits by learning to communicate with their child in this way?

Yeah, I'm convinced that there's benefits no matter what level you're doing it at. That it's definitely. I know for sure that it's because having heard from dozens and dozens of mothers, it's absolutely possible to do this part time if you have a caregiver, that it's possible to work with a caregiver who's cooperative and willing to also support a child in this way. So, absolutely, I believe there's benefits. Absolutely. And at the same time, and maybe this is a bit radical, but my belief is that those first years with a child are so profoundly, incredibly important that I'm really willing to forego some choice and convenience and even take on some challenge around income and how I'm working my life to be able to be there with my child and to respond to those needs as much as I possibly can. In the same way that if you're only able to nurse your baby when you come home from work or at night or at certain times, that's just so incredibly wonderful and amazing. And I have such a longing that we can rearrange society and do whatever it needs and be really proactive in making choices and asking for social change around creating a situation where no mother is ever having to be in that position and where she can be there for her baby all the time.

Yeah. That's so beautiful. I love that. I will support that vision. I totally agree. It's so important for women, you know, to have the support and being able to be with their children. The first few years are so foundational.

Yeah. And a longing also for society to value that as incredibly important work socially and economically to put their money behind it.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, I love that. And I love. I feel super blessed to have an incredible husband who is super supportive of me and our family and just me really taking the time to do that. And I think it's so important for us as women to value that, to take a stand and say, this is important, my career is important and that's great. But also this is a really important part of my life. I value it so that society will value it.

I have a friend who's been kind of an inspiration. She's an architect and she went back to work when her daughter was about two months old and she took her to every single meeting and she did elimination communication and breastfeeder on request the whole time. I was just blown away.

That's awesome.

She worked full time as an architect and also was able to manage all of that.

That's so great. That's amazing.

That's super inspiring.

I love that.

Very cool.

So what about the. Obviously, this woman was just doing it out in the world, but what about the people who are thinking, I don't actually think that I can be out there doing this Elimination communication?

All the.

I'd really like to use diapers. Do you have any tips on people who are thinking they want to use some diapers? Like, when's the best time to use it? And things like that?

Yeah, for me, I use diapers as well. When my little ones, I didn't use them ever at home, except for sometimes at nighttime, especially if I was concerned once they started moving around in the bed. And if I was concerned I might not catch them at night or that they might pee in the night, although they all were dry at night at quite a young age, comparatively. But I used it, for example, when. And I would suggest using it sometimes when you're going to be out and distracted in a way. And anytime when you think not having a diaper is going to create stress for you and your child, you know, I used it. For example, I have a family member who didn't, despite me having read a book and raised children like that, still didn't believe it was possible and puts a lot of value in how beautiful her home is. And I just wanted to respect that. You know, I knew that my child would be fine and I really care about this person and my family. And I wanted her to also feel comfortable. And I knew that it was way more of a stretch for her to feel comfortable than it would be for me to just put a diaper on my child. So my choices, again, it has a lot to do with your own lifestyle and how you look at your own needs. And it's kind of. For me, it's a balance between really wanting to live what's important to me and the depth of my values and also making that work in a way that isn't going to be really challenging for others or put a lot of stress on myself so that stress again will revert to my child. So, yeah, by all means, use that diaper and be aware that you might have the choice. I would often put a diaper on my child if I was going somewhere where we didn't know where we were going to be in my own Community. I was able to go diaper free with my children very young because I knew where all the public toilets were and where I felt comfortable. But if I went somewhere different town where I didn't know anything, I would tend to put a diaper on my child and then keep a lookout for toilets. And then if I am using a diaper, a really huge thing. And it's of course something that I hope everybody who is conventionally diapering also does is to really change the baby as soon as you possibly can. Very few people have a cultural objection to that. If you just say, oh, I need to change my baby right away. Right.

That's great. I love too that you said it numerous times not allowing it to create stress enough that that impacts the child that you don't have to do elimination communication perfectly. Just do what feels makes you feel comfortable. And also I love that you respect other people. Everybody is not going to think this is the coolest thing in the respecting that as well. Not pushing our values and our thoughts on what is right.

I love that. Yeah.

So what about.

And again, for me, I think it also goes. I mean there's different levels of different things too. You know. For me, for example, I will nurse my children regardless of how uncomfortable somebody is with because it's so important for me to meet my needs. And I will try and make it as comfortable for them as possible without impacting my child's needs and around the diapers. I'm pretty convinced that my child is not going to be seriously damaged if they pee in a diaper and I change it. I feel pretty differently about them really needing to nurse in a moment and denying that need because of someone else's discomfort. I do think that has an impact on my child. Right.

Yeah, that's great. And then also it's an opportunity to inspire people as well. Right. Like my child has a need and I'm going to give it. And it's an opportunity for people who may not think that it's appropriate to have an opportunity to learn and grow.

And see how important breastfeeding is. Yeah, I kind of see that as a bonus rather than my focus because I think if I were coming from trying to teach people something, I don't know if my heart would be in the right place. I totally agree with what you're saying. Yeah.

Yeah.

Awesome.

So how long does it take to. I mean obviously it probably varies baby to baby, child to child, but to be completely toilet trained?

Uh huh. Yeah. It's kind of the phrase I used for it was toilet independent. There's different ways of looking at it. I would say that my children, between about eight, seven and 10 months, maybe depending on the child and the situation, were able. We had a strong enough communication that we very rarely had any accidents. At the same time, they were still 100% dependent on me to bring them to a toilet. So they weren't toilet independent. When they start moving themselves to take themselves to the toilet, they were probably closer to a year and a half, maybe even a year and three quarters where they would do it. And that would again be only at home. If we were at a friend's or somewhere out doing errands or something like that, they would say to me, I need to go to the bathroom. Just the way a regular potty trained child might say. They wouldn't just take themselves off somewhere. So there's all these different levels of it, I think, and the range is very big. I started with my children from birth. I put a huge amount of value of being really completely connected to my children in the first six weeks. I hardly leave my home during that time to really build that relationship. And so I believe that being totally free of being dependent on diapers completely and I don't just mean like having them diaper free, but actually having them also accident free at seven or eight months is probably definitely on the younger scale compared to a lot of people I've talked to. So most people I'm imagining it's more around one or even one and a half. And again, I think there's a wide variance. And myself, the way that my mom did it, I know I was out of diapers totally at about between around 11, 12 months.

That's so great. I love that your mom was doing that.

She's like, what, you're writing a book about this?

That's so awesome.

I didn't have any books with my first. I didn't have any books either. But it seems like these days people like books about it.

Yes, definitely. I appreciate the books. That's so great. I have a question on the mothers. How does a mother and couple stick with it early in the child's life, the baby's life, when they might be feeling overwhelmed, exhausted, irritable. Do you have any tips on that? To stay with it?

To stay with it?

Because I would imagine, and I obviously don't know, but there's potentially, especially with your first child, there might be a lot of change and you might want to give up.

Yeah. And I think that happens for a lot of women also around breastfeeding when challenges arise. So again, it's being proactive and doing the best you can. Like if you know in advance if you're still pregnant when you're hearing this, do what you can to create a really big circle of support around yourself and really practical support. When I say I stay at home with my babies for the first six weeks, didn't happen with my first, but for the subsequent three, I was really clear to create that circle around myself of people that I really trusted. I had people who are willing to come to my door, grab a basket of dirty laundry, leave without having to have a chat or see the baby and deliver it folded and washed and dried with a bouquet of roses and an extra meal on top the next day kind of thing. That made it possible for me to be there. And I put a lot of energy and effort and thought into making sure that that happened for myself. I feel really grateful to live in a community and to have friends that are supportive in that way. And I really proactively had to stretch beyond my comfort level and ask for that. So stretch beyond your comfort level and ask for the support you need and if at all possible, get it set up in advance. That's a huge thing for me, this idea that moms can do this all by themselves and I don't mean just this, but parent any kind of parenting, breastfeeding, all of it, all by themselves. It's just so challenging. So really, really realize the importance of that support and proactively go out there and stretch beyond your comfort zone to get it and make it happen. That's part of it. The other part for me that's really important is just being really incredibly compassionate with myself and with my child and being really clear about what my values are and my intention. It's just so important for me to meet my baby's needs. I understand the importance of it for a lifetime. So I'm willing to stretch beyond my comfort zone and ease zone and need for rest and all of those things. Not to the point where it's impacting how I'm functioning in the world, because that's impacting my child. Self care is huge. Whatever you can do for self care and support and even that self care, again, I want you to have support from outside so that you can take care of yourself and not think you have to also be responsible for all your self care, but to think about rest and all those things, that's part of it. And at the same time, for me, meeting those needs is so big that I'm Willing to forgo some of the.

Ease, that.

I'm willing to forego some things to be able to give that to my children, because I also see that my child's needs are not separate from my own. When my child needs to nurse, it's the same as my need to nurse my child. Wow. Does that help? Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah.

I love the support and I love the vision that what we do in the early phases of our children's life lasts a lifetime. When you said that, I just got goosebumps, like, wow, that's powerful.

And in it, there's this kind of completely awesome and astounding sense of power and responsibility that we hold as a parent and also want to balance that with how incredibly challenging it is in the society we live in. So I want to hold that with a lot of awareness, like, not just let it go and go, oh, it's too hard. You know, I want to stretch towards that ideal. And I also really, really want to make sure that I'm compassionate with myself when I don't live up to it, as inevitably I won't. There will always be times when I don't fully reach that, and then I want to just go, gosh, okay, so this is what I'm longing for, and this is what I'm stretching for, and this is what's happening, and I'm still doing the best I can, you know?

Yeah. Fantastic. And I love, too, your work. For me, it just kind of feels like everything is awareness and communication, like, helping us bond with our children more. Would that be kind of like the heart of your work is, like, learning how to communicate with our children?

For sure. Yeah. It's really about building that attachment and connection with them. And, you know, and for me, it's about, yes, it's about meeting their needs, but my gosh, it's just so fun, too. I wouldn't want to be with my kids any other way. And I am sometimes with my kids in other ways because of stress or whatever, and it's sure not as fun. Right.

I love to hear that. Obviously, you do a lot of work with parenting as well. And I always get so happy when I hear people say that it's fun, because in our culture, you know, people always say it's the best thing I've ever done is having a child, but then there isn't usually fun. I don't hear fun that much. So I'd love to hear some parenting tips, advice, thoughts on the fun part.

I think I'm not clear enough on your question. Some Tips and advice on how to have fun.

I'm just saying making parenting, like, enjoying the process more.

Mm. For me, it's really connected to seeing, like connecting to the deeper parts of what it's meeting and listening to my gut too, instead of my head. Instead of like, this is what should be happening, this is what my child should be doing or what I should be doing. It's just going like, this is what feels yummy and what they're really enjoying. And wow, isn't it wonderful when what feels yummy for me and what they're enjoying fit together? That's my idea of fun, definitely. And then, you know, I think I also have a kind of irreverent sense of humor that helps me along too. My kids think I'm slightly crazed, but that's awesome in a good way. Sorry, go ahead. One of the things that makes parenting fun for me is really focusing on filling that cup of connection and love together at a time when it's easy and feels good. So that when it gets difficult, we've got that to draw on. I think a lot of the times it's easy that when your child is doing okay or when things are easier, you tend to put your attention to other things so you can get some work done or do this or do that. And then when something comes up, you haven't got that full cup to draw from that time of gosh, right now it's difficult, but wow, this afternoon when we were snuggling and smiling at each other, that's really still kind of tiding me through. That's great.

So how do we form? I know you do a lot of work and you're a non violent communication trainer. How do we learn to communicate with our children to create that yumminess that you were talking about so that it is like a beautiful flow in synergy. Not all the time, but most of the time.

Yeah. Gosh, a whole bunch of things popped into my head. So I'm trying to think of where I'm going to start. I think the two things that really sit with me are being connected, that we always have a choice to where we put our attention. And that's become really clear to me. The older I get, I'm 50 now, and the older I get, I'm realizing that I really just have a choice where I put my attention. Because it may seem in the moment that there's only one thing going on, but there's usually just lots of things going on. And so maybe in the moment I can think of an Example, in the moment, I'm really tired and my child is wanting to nurse again. And I can focus on being really tired or I can focus on a sense of gratitude that my child is able to express what they really want and that I'm here and I'm able to offer it to them and that we can connect in that way. So I guess it has to do with that focus. Gratitude is a big one for me, just focusing on gratitude, which doesn't mean I don't want to sit with some of the times when it's difficult and have compassion and mourning and some sadness and overwhelm and all that. That's all totally a part of my humanity and a part of. But sometimes we get so overwhelmed with that stuff that we lose touch with that piece around gratitude. So I bring it to the forefront a lot. Supports me a lot. That is one piece. And what's the other thing I was going to say? Oh, and the other thing is, I also noticed more and more through my parenting that pretty well 95% of my parenting is connecting with myself. When I first was born and through the years of parenting him and began so aware that I was always trying to help him with his behavior or do something kind of on the outside with him for him, change him, whatever. And I'm just realizing that 95% of it is just, if I'm having fun being me, then I'm going to have fun with my kids.

That's great.

I just really like who I am and enjoy myself and understand what my needs are. So much easier for me to respond to others from that place.

That's great. I love that. 95% is like you just taking care of you, not trying to change the child and take control. That's so great. That's awesome. I love that. Very inspiring. And it's very different from most parenting techniques.

Right.

Where it's controlling the child and changing the child and getting the child to change this rather than actually taking a look at what we're doing.

Yeah. And occasionally in my parenting work, when I'm working with parents, I might ask them, how about this week before we meet again or this month before we have another class? What if the only thing you change about your parenting is that you pause and connect with what's going on inside you and figure out what your needs are in the moment and nothing else. And parents often come back and go, wow, so different. And it cannot help but impact what you do or say. And some people say just the fact that I shut my mouth and Went inside instead of reacting to my kid, changed everything in my household. And what do you think is the change?

That they don't yell, they don't create tension.

What's that? They look for that place of coming back to their center and coming back to what's really true for them instead of reacting from their fear or their anger. And it often looks like on the outside, instead of yelling to just kind of go, gosh, you're overwhelmed. And I'm overwhelmed, too. How can we see this as kind of something we're sharing together rather than us being in conflict about it?

And then the pause also probably brings us back to having that pause.

Brings us to the choice.

Like, we have the choice of what.

We'Re going to do. Yeah, yeah. We're more aware. I'm so stressed right now, and I just want to, like, you know, yell at you or shake. And the pause gives me enough time to go. And what's really important to me. Well, what's really important to me is my connection and love with you and our relationship. And I want to put that relationship above all else. And those other things that I was just going to do, man, they don't serve it. And right now, I'm not feeling, like, all gushy and yummy towards you. And so maybe I'm not going to.

Be that way, but I'm going to.

Stop myself from doing those other things.

Right.

Maybe at some point, too, that gushy, yummy part comes in, too.

That's awesome. I love it. It feels so empowering and just so nourishing for our children, too, when we take responsibility for what's going on with us.

Right? Yeah. And it's not separate. I mean, I want to come back to meeting their needs is not separate from meeting my own. When that happens, it's so nourishing for our children. And wow, it feels so good. As a parent, that's when you really start to enjoy parenting.

That's so great, too, because I often hear parents will say, I'm always giving. I'm always giving. It's always. Some people are nice about it, but some people kind of just feel like the child's always taking from them. So I love this idea and this vision of that the child isn't fulfilling our child's needs is actually nourishing and it's a gift for us.

Totally. Yeah. Awesome.

Thank you for that. So what about nonviolent communication for those people who don't know about it? Can you just tell us a little bit about what it is and how that can impact our parenting.

Yeah. So nonviolent communication is kind of a model of communication that was originally developed by Dr. Marshall Rosenberg about 50 years ago or so. And it has sort of a communication model that goes along with it that's based on identifying observations and feelings and being clear about what your needs are and making requests that work for everybody. And so there's kind of a language that can go along with it to help you learn. But for me, it's really about getting in connection with what's true for you in your heart and what's happening inside other people and realizing that we're all trying to meet needs in whatever action we choose, and that if we can connect at that level of understanding what the needs are, that we can find strategies for meeting them in ways that are going to serve us better. I may be yelling at you because I'm really longing for cooperation, but if I can really connect with that, I'm really longing for cooperation, I may realize that there might be some better strategies than yelling at you to actually elicit that cooperation I'm longing for. Right. That's kind of a brief nutshell example. I see it as a lifelong practice, so it's hard to capture in a few words. Right. For me, it's a way of really looking at. It's a concrete tool for engaging compassion.

And then the main thing, or one of the big things is figuring out what our needs are and figuring out what other people's needs are and just learning how to communicate about our needs in an empowering, compassionate way.

Yeah, that's a big piece of it, for sure. And a really huge piece that I think requires a lot of undoing for people, is moving beyond right, wrong thinking that we're really all. To see us all in our full humanity. We're all, all of us, every creature on this planet, longing to have a more wonderful life. And we all really underlying everything. We all want the same things. We all have the same needs, and we all share the same needs, and we have all these different ways of expressing them and different strategies that we try to use to get them met. And that's where we run into conflict. But it's really coming back to that place where there's that sense of valuing each human being, no matter what their culture or their age or their gender, that we're really all wanting the same things.

Yeah, I love it. I read a couple books on it. And what I really got from it, too, is that getting into somebody else's world and being like, oh, wow, this Person has maybe a need. And I'm so overwhelmed with my need, and it seems so important that sometimes I might forget that other people have needs.

Yeah. And we tend to do that a lot with children, especially because we're in such a situation where we hold power over children. And traditionally, in this society, adults needs are valued way higher than children's. And so we tend to kind of just do that automatically. You need to listen. And anything the child is doing, if we get into that. Right. Wrong. Thinking about it, we kind of categorize it as they're being good or they're being bad. They're doing something appropriate or they're doing something inappropriate rather than really looking at. Okay, they're trying to serve a need here. I see that in their immature way, they're not very good at it yet. They're just learning. So how can I support them in their learning? How can I support our relationship so that I can help them get better at meeting this need in a way that's going to work better for me too and for our whole family.

Right. And then so meeting their needs and being open to their needs creates more compassion. I know you do a lot of work with compassionate parenting. Can you talk a little bit about that as well and how we become more compassionate parents?

Yeah, I think it's really just that place is recognizing that need. I mean, the real foundation for me of parenting is attachment, is really getting that strong, strong attachment. And when that attachment is there, it seems like the compassion arises much more easily and naturally, even in times of stress. But it's really realizing that. Oh, okay. So, yeah, he's, you know, he's hitting his baby brother. And what's that about? You know, what's he trying to tell me here? This is a child in pain trying to communicate something. And so what might his needs be behind that? You know, maybe he's frustrated and he just really wants to know that he still matters in the family now that there's this new baby and that he's still important to me and he's still loved. Or maybe he just wants me to know that even though the baby wants something now, it's really hard for him to wait, too. And he wants me to understand that. And so he's hitting the baby to let me know. So it's kind of looking behind the behavior, seeing what's underlying it, so that I can. And that opens my heart, too. Yes, of course. He wants to know that he's still loved. Well, I want that so much that he knows that he's loved hope opens my heart rather than if I'm just looking out and going, what a bad boy or he is so aggressive. The judgment arise.

Yeah. That's so powerful what you said too, the looking beyond the behavior. Because I think we can get wrapped up in other people's behaviors, our children's behaviors, and looking beyond that to what's underneath.

Yeah, Very cool.

Love it. So one more question. How do we really help our children thrive and flourish? And what do our children need the most from us?

Let me think. I mean, lots of things well up in me and I want to keep it concise. I think what our children really need, it has really to do with that attachment piece. They really need to know that no matter what happens and no matter what they do, that the relationship is intact, that it's there for them, that we're their advocate, that we love them and that we care about them. You could sum it up as unconditional love. I like Carl Rogers phrase unconditional positive regard. Which for me, love sometimes implies that, oh, I've got to have that deep feeling of love for them which sometimes I don't have. I'm seeing certain behaviors but that I can always come to them with that unconditional positive regard that they always have belonging with me. That they can always come to me even when there's challenge. And I will always be, I always hold that relationship intact with them. I think that that's a foundation for a lifetime of maturing into a healthy and happy human being.

That's wonderful. Yeah, I love that because I totally can feel the love. And then you may not love that all the time, but to have that positive regard for them, Amazing. And a safe haven.

It's very inspiring to have that, that creates that safety so that they can really trust us and grow. It's the only place they are actually going to learn anything if they have that kind of safety.

Awesome. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. Really, really appreciate it personally and I know everyone else will as well. Can you just share your website and where people can find more about you? I know that you do retreats and workshops and all sorts of fun stuff, so maybe just share your website.

Yeah, my website is www.fullheartparenting.com. you can also get to it by going to nvcparenting.com it might be easier to remember but fullheartparenting.com that's me still working on it. I'm not a big techie. I spend more time hanging out with my kids than in the woods, but you'll find lots there about what I do.

Beautiful. Well, thank you. Thank you for your wisdom and your generosity, and, yeah, I really appreciate it.

So thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Alexandra. I'm really grateful to have been here today.

Yes.

Thank you.

And have a beautiful day.

Okay. You too. Okay.

Take care.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mama Goddess. Sending you lots of love and blessings. If you'd like to connect more, go to mamagoddess.com until. Until next time. Keep rocking it and have an awesome day.