Fierce Fabulous Free with Nisha Moodley

Welcome to Mama Goddess. I'm your host, Alexandra J. Johnson. This podcast is all about rocking your goddess life, creating vibrant health and celebrating motherhood and family life. It's about living an authentically awesome life. Let's have some fun. Hello and welcome. I'm Alexandra J. Johnson, and today we have a beautiful, powerful guest, Nisha Moodley. Neesha is a women's leadership coach and the creator of Fierce, Fabulous, Free, the Freedom Mastermind, and the Virtual Sisterhood. She believes that the world will be set free by women who are free, and sisterhood is the key to the freedom. She creates communities of ambitious women to support them in redesigning their lives and business. Awesome. Welcome, Neisha.

Thanks, Alexandra. So great to be with you today.

Great to be with you. I just love. I love your. And I recently found you, you know, through actually our company in Theos. I saw an interview with you, and I've seen a couple people interview you, and I just love your style, your flavor. Like, you just got some good mojo. So I'm excited to. To dive in with you.

Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here, and thanks for the invitation.

Fantastic. Okay, so let's start off with Fabulous. Wait, I don't want to get it wrong. Fierce, Fabulous, and free. Tell us why those words? What do those words mean to you? Give us the goods.

So I started years ago thinking about, like, you know, what is at the intersection of ambition and ease? Because as an entrepreneur. Entrepreneur in around 2010, I had been in business for about three years, and my business was growing. It was increasingly. It was increasing in sustainability from a financial perspective. It was, you know, things were going well. And I was married at the time. I'm divorced now, and I was working all the time at the expense of my marriage, at the expense of my own health and self care, really at the expense of my feeling of aliveness as a woman. And the irony is that I was out to make a difference in women's aliveness in the world, and I was feeling like a wreck. And it was around that time that I heard the Dalai Lama quote, that I'm sure you've heard. Many, many of us have heard, maybe most of us have heard, the world will be saved by the Western woman. And I was like, which ones? I'm a Western woman. I have all the freedoms that come with being a Western woman. And yet I myself was so profoundly unfree in many ways. I just felt so burned out, so overwhelmed, so on the brink of quitting that I was trying to figure out which ones of us are actually going to save or change the world. And I realized that it would be those of us who are actually being the change. And so if what I stood for as I was an emotional eating coach helped women find freedom with food, it's like, well, if I stand for freedom and I'm a workaholic, which means I'm working all the time and using work to avoid the other things in my life, then I'm not an ambassador of my message. Unless I'm actually a living embodiment of ever expanding freedom, which means I'm never fully baked, but I'm living in this message. So I had to start looking at, okay, I'm ambitious, but how do I also have ease and play in my life as well? And so to me, being fierce means it's the ambitious part of me. It's the focused, determined part of me, the part that is, like, out to change the world. The part that, like, has a message and has a torch, you know, and to bear and fabulous to me is like pleasure and play and beauty and ease. And I found that at the intersection of those two things, there was a level of especially extrinsic freedom, but also, you know, an access point to intrinsic freedom that I could discover there. So that's where fierce, fabulous free really came from.

Mmm, Juicy.

I love it. Thank you.

Yeah. So great. Okay, so the freedom. I'm interested on that because, you know, you've talked about it. I think I watched a video. You're talking about intrinsic and extrinsic freedom. You know, can you just talk more about how we become more free? Like, in those different. Those different ways?

Yeah. So I think of not freedom as there are a couple of indicators of not being free. One of them is deferred pleasure. So I will blank when what's really interesting is I know when. Totally blanking right now. Nelson Mandela got out of prison. My family, my father's side is South African, so South African Indian. So I grew up like, Nelson Mandela was, like, family hero. And he got out of prison and said something about, like, I've always been a free man. And there was a way that he was free in his heart, he was free in his mind. Even if he was, you know, behind bars, Deferred pleasure is. Or a deferred experience of our own freedom. I'll be free when and recognizing that there is a freedom available to us in every moment. And avoidance is another one, another indicator of not freedom. So if I refuse to look at something in my life, then in that place, I Am not free. So I think of, you know, extrinsic freedom as the freedom to roam about. I mean, I am extrinsically, by all, you know, means. And there are layers to this levels of freedom, but I'm not behind bars. So that's basic level. I'm not. I'm nobody's slave. I'm nobody's indentured servant. And then we go up through the levels of, you know, like, you know, having the freedom to. Freedom of speech, freedom to do work that I love. These are all expressions of extrinsic freedom. I'm able to roam about, I'm able to travel, and I found a way to work from wherever I want to be in the world. And then there's my intrinsic freedom, which is freedom beyond circumstance. And I kind of think of that as a sense of wholeness, that we are integrated within ourselves, in our hearts, and have come home to ourselves. And so in that moment, when I can come back home to my body, you know, we all leave our bodies, some of us for moments, some of us for years. But when I can come back home to myself, I find in that moment, I am free. So it's an intangible thing. I think it's hard to define freedom because there are no walls to push against. But I like to look at where are we avoiding in our lives? Where are we deferring pleasure in our lives? Where are we limiting ourselves and what we believe is possible or see as possible as ways, places that we can look? Oh, this is where I've created a wall or a ceiling to my own experience of freedom in the world.

Right. Okay. So I love this. Let's say we have. We're looking around and we see a wall, right? There's a wall. What do we do about it?

Well, I think that part of it is looking at where. Where we have limited thinking. Right. So I was talking with a client the other day, and she said we were talking about income for her. And, you know, she made this huge leap from going from work that felt really misaligned for her. You know, we could even circle back years and years when she was in finance and, like, hated her life, hated her job. And then she made the transition into the world of healing. She was a healer. And so that was a massive, you know, move in, into alignment. And then years passed as they do, and there was a new misalignment that no longer was fully aligned for her. And so she needed to change the way that she was working so that she felt in greater alignment in Our work together, we did that and she managed to make that transition and still from doing this type of work to doing very different work that felt more aligned without losing her income. But her income didn't grow. That's progress. We're more aligned. But she was like, okay, great, this is great. But now I'm ready to grow my practice. I'm ready to actually grow not just my income, but my impact. And I just don't see it as possible. So wall, there we go. That's her wall. And you know, I think that there's no like magic bullet answer about what to do in that space, but I think certainly putting an awareness around what are the stories that we are telling ourselves that are keeping this, that are putting this wall in place. Right. So in her case it was just really unpacking like what is it that you believe about yourself or the world or others that is having you create this really self imposed limitation. And I think that there are a lot of things like once we identify those beliefs, we can start to either shift our behaviors to impact those beliefs or actually do things like NLP or you know, embodied practices like somatic therapy to change those belief, the belief patterning. So I think that's part of it. And I also think that I found it so helpful anyways to look at exam when I bump up against a wall, which really is just reinforced by beliefs, it's just a set of beliefs. If I can then look at people who are living outside of that paradigm, well, if that's not possible, then how come it's working for her? How come it's happening over there? And you know, that the trap that we can of course get into when we do that is oh, well, it's because, you know, she's blonde or she's been at this longer than I have, or she's, you know, got a rich husband or like whatever shit we make up that make it still impossible for us to have that. I mean, the trick is to notice that it exists in the world. And therefore our belief is now starting to be on shaky ground. And then to actually get that seeing it out in the world doesn't prove that it's impossible for us. It proves that it is possible. And I think sometimes that just requires the leap of faith, like believing with no proof. And so that's part of it. And I think another part is, you know, I love for me and for the women that I work with to really get connected with our why. And I like to say there's a why for me And a why for the world. My why for me is, you know, what, what is the vision of my future for my family, for myself, for, you know, my life, my lifestyle that so inspires me that it has me move forward even if there are self imposed limitations. Even if I have this story, it's like, okay, I have this story, but I'm actually more devoted to this future vision, this why than I am to, you know, keeping telling my story, self, this story every day. And then there's also our why for the world, which you know, is as I see it, this future vision that we see for the planet that so inspires us that we are willing to do what it takes, the inner and outer work to create that future into being.

I love that. Okay, so the why is great. The vision, you know, of having that vision, because I think that's so important and I think we as women just in general, we can get lost in the day to day of life happening.

Sure.

And there's things that need to get done. But how do we go about creating this vision and then being where we're at currently and then continue to move forward? Because I know that there's the feeling of like I'm never gonna get there or overwhelmed or stressed or all the things that get in the way of making that possible. So can you talk about how we, how we step into that vision, like day to day, what's, how do we do that?

So I'm such a fan of ritual and daily practice. And there's a ritual that I use that I find so help around this. And I recommend that people like pull out a post it note and write these on a post it note. And so what I do is now it's just in me. So I don't need a post it note. But if I kind of fall off track because I'm human and every once in a while I stop flossing for a week and I stop doing this for a week, okay, I get back on track, I'll pull the post it note back out again. And certainly when I was making a habit out of this, I used the post it note. So on the post it note, there are three questions. The first one is why? The second one is what do I really have to do? And the third question is what would make me proud? And I'll explain those in a moment. But I just stick this post it note right on my phone or the first thing that I'm gonna touch in the morning. It's especially important if anyone who's watching is the kind of person who like rolls over and like, you know, like is fussing around on their phone first thing in the morning, which is a terrible habit, but put it on your alarm, put it on your phone, put it right there on your bedside table. And so these three questions are sort of my morning in a way, my grounding meditation to kind of get my, my action to align with this future vision. And so the question why is calling back into my heart every morning, first thing, why is it that I'm doing this? What is my future vision for the planet and for myself? It does not have to be fully baked. There isn't a writing exercise that I'm going to give people to figure that out. It's just like, if you could close your eyes and envision a future for your life that inspires you, what does it look and feel like? If you close your eyes and envision a future for the world that inspires you, what does it look and feel like? And we can find a way that our work threads into that future vision. So I connect with the why. And then the second question is, what do I really have to do? Because we can get, as you said, really bogged down by the day to day minutia, right? Like, oh, let me check my email first and like, I need to, you know, do that other thing. And then like, let me just get a laundry. I mean, I spent like the first year of my business basically, like getting email and laundry out of the way.

Right, right.

Okay, that was great. I have no email and no laundry, but I just have no progress really. And email and laundry keep piling up. The nature of email and laundry, you can never ever be completely done for a moment. But yeah, there are other things that can be more pressing. So what do I. The question what do I really need to do? Helps me kind of connect back with, okay, there are probably 1, 2, 3 things that are actually going to move the needle forward, that are actually going to be most impactful or what I'm up to in the world. And it helps to clarify those things. And starting with that question, why? Helps me look at what's in alignment with that future. And then the third question, what would make me proud is starts to make sure that the picture is really holistic. So what do I really have to do? Might remind me that I need to finish the sales page or, you know, phone that client, but it might not take into account that I need to eat well today or I want to take time to call my friend who just had a baby and Check in with her. And so what would make me proud reminds me. Okay. When I'm laying here tonight and I'm reflecting on my day, I would feel really proud to know that, you know, I took care of that or that I took care of me. So, you know, because I could. I could feel proud from knocking things off a to do list, but I wouldn't necessarily feel super proud if I, like, snapped at my partner, you know, midway through the day because I was such a stress case or, you know, forgot to eat all day and then ended up eating, you know, a bag of chips for dinner. It just helps me come home to what's really important to me as a person beyond just this work that I have to do. And I find that those questions, if I ask myself that at the beginning of the day, it really helps me actually take the daily action that is most in alignment with that. Why? And also has me feeling like the actions that I'm taking are in alignment so that I can remember, okay. Me taking an hour out to call my friend right now and have this conversation, it's not taking me off track, what I'm up to in the world. It's only enhancing this future. It's moving me forward towards that vision so that there isn't such a separation between life and work.

That's beautiful. And I love that specific example, because you bring in the power which I think is so important for us women is the power of connection that we can get. So, like, oh, my business. And I'm making my dreams happen, and I'm doing it, and I'm, you know, I got my hustle on, you know, and then there's the wait. I have friends. I have loved ones. I have family. Like, that is vital, like, nutrients for our soul. So I love that you. That you brought that up. The connection of, like, that's important. That's an important to do, or it's an important thing to do throughout the day.

Totally. And, you know, entrepreneurship is an emotional roller coaster at times. It's like, one of the greatest personal development journeys anyone could go on. I'm sure I'm not a parent yet, but you are. I'm sure. That's another one.

Those are pretty. Those are tied. Those are pretty. I think parenting for me is more. But yes.

Yeah. And. And so, you know, going through a launch. Huge emotional. I mean, I just launched a new website. It's, like, huge emotional odyssey to go on. And at the times where there are dips, it's not my website that's gonna be There for me, it's my girlfriends, it's my partner, it's my mom. And yeah. So we have to nurture those relationships. And I mean, that sounds like a selfish reason for nurturing those relationships. It's also like, these are human beings who love us, who are waiting for their love and return in whatever form that comes in. But.

Beautiful. Okay, so I want to stay with this vision, but I do want to get. We'll get into the sisterhood a little bit ways, you know, just that connection more. But so I love this, the vision, the why. I think that's so important. It's connect. I love that you connect to that every day, you know, And I think for me, as a new mom, that's been huge of like, you know, there's lots of laundry and dishes and diaper. There's like, you know, your friend had a baby. You probably know, there's like, there's a lot to reorient and redesign and having connection to that why of, like, why I'm doing the dishes. Like, I love my family. I'm blessing my family, that strong, wise for all the things and the reason that we're doing selfishly. For me, creating the wise keeps me sane and connected to my life force. If I let those negative stories that you were talking about, like, that just drains us down the negative dungeon.

Right, right. Because we could all find a reason to complain about everything we're doing. It's like, well, this is what it's taking right now to sustain life, to move me towards this beautiful future vision. Like, it's a gift to have these problems.

Yeah. Yeah, Right. Totally. That's awesome. Okay, so. So what do you do if you don't know what you want? How do you find clarity? I know for a lot of women that I've worked with, they're just like, I just don't know what I want or should I want this or I want this or part of me wants this and part of me wants this. And there's a lot of kind of all overness. What do you recommend to have that? Clarity.

Yeah. So my experience is that that's clarity that I can't get from anywhere outside of me. Although there are many things outside of me that can support me in finding that clarity. Like spending time in nature, taking a break from trying to figure it out so that I have this space for it to come to me. But certainly, you know, what I found really helpful is. And critical. I mean, helpful is like such a small word. It's like necessary is to have Those trusted sisters in my life who I can go to in any state. And by the way, I had to just force myself to go to them in any state. Like, oh my God, I'm a hot mess, I'm confused. I feel like a broken record and I'm gonna go anyway and tell them the whole mess that I'm feeling. So to have those sisters in my life that I can go to and say, okay, I'm feeling like way confused or lost or unclear right now, you know, can you help me find my answer within? Can you help me navigate this? And just having friends who are, you know, who've got good questions, who are willing to find good questions or just sit in the mess with me even if they don't know what to do and just down sit, you know, to sit with me while I'm in my confusion. And I found that I think we're all different the way that we come to clarity. You know, I have a friend whose husband is an engineer and they have a math room in their house. And so when he's feeling confused or disconcerted, he goes and does math.

Like that is awesome.

Clearly we all have different ways of finding our center. That's not how I operate, how I operate. What I know about myself is that. And I think this is really a helpful key is like knowing what is only going to create more confusion versus what's going to actually help us get to clarity. So I used to think, oh, okay, well, some people say it's good to do a pro con list. I'll do a pro con list. I know now that I am a person who I will get more confused if I am left alone with my brain in my confusion. Like rumination pro con lists, they are the death of me. And it's just another way to have like taller lists of why I should or shouldn't do something or why I should or shouldn't go. They always seem to just about even up. What I need is to actually talk to another human being who cares about me, who I love, who I trust, who will help me navigate to my way towards my answer. And I also need people in my life who will help me see that it's not the end of the world if I don't do the what I think is the exact right thing here. And so I think just knowing ourselves, knowing what helps us, what kind of things help us get more clear and what kind of things help us feel more, have us feel more confused then using the tool, the right tools for the job. So I Think it's like an increasingly intimate understanding of self.

Yeah, yeah. So doing the inner work to figure that out.

Yeah.

And don't you think that we, I mean, we can get confused, but don't you think, like, we know?

Yeah, I think that there's some place within us that we know and sometimes we just have to flail around a little while before we get to that knowing. And that's where I think it's so helpful to also realize that 99.9 probably percent of decisions are not life threatening. They're not life critical. I mean, I'm not a surgeon, so I don't have to deal with those actually life threatening decisions. And usually it's something that I can get support around. And I also find, you know, here's another thing that I know about myself. I know that if I'm feeling overwhelmed, that I probably need to create structure. If you're into Myers Briggs, I'm a J. I'm a total J. If I don't have that structure. And I feel like I don't know what's going on here or the calendar is kind of confusing. I can just go into confusion and overwhelm really easily. And so it's like my antidote for overwhelm is some structure. Creating some structure so that I have an understanding of how things work. And then I'm like, oh, okay, now I see, like, you know, it's like when I start baking, let's say I never bake. So if I do, I need a recipe. But the way that I do it is I have to have the recipe and then have all the ingredients laid out. And then I'm like, cool. I don't know how to bake a pie, though. If somebody walks up to me and they're like, put a gun against my head, like, bake a pie. I don't know what's in it. And that overwhelm of like, I don't know what to do here is just. Because there isn't enough structure for me. And I actually feel really free when I've got that structure.

I love that you said that because there's definitely, you know, there's definitely. The idea of freedom is like, you just wake up and like, you just do whatever you want to do do, and it's just flowing and spontaneity and it's all fun and rainbows and just awesome. Like, I know some people think that around freedom, but I'm totally with you of like, I've found way more freedom when I create structures and just Little constraints around everything, you know, just like, little. And then my feminine can kind of dance and play within those containers, but I don't have those containers. I'm like, what the hell am I doing?

Totally. I mean, one of my, you know, one of the entrepreneurs who I really look up to in the way that she. And just. Just her beingness and also in the content that she produces and the way that she lives her life and how she works is Danielle laporte. And, you know, when I first met her, however many years ago, three or four years ago, I was just struck by how, you know, she is able to produce, you know, on a. Like, really produce. I mean, in the last few years, she's, like, written a couple of books and she's able to really produce, but still has this. She's so creative. It's clear that it's really creative expression. And one of the things that I know about Danielle is that not every day looks the same, and I'm kind of the same way. And again, different strokes for different folks. Some people are like, nope, like, I need to eat my oatmeal at 8am and that's what. That's the container that they need. Her day's like, maybe the odd. I'll use myself as an example now, like, maybe the odd Tuesday I spend at a spa, and then, you know, the next week I'm working on a Saturday. There's just a lot of flow. And I know that Danielle has that kind of flow in her calendar where it's not this stringent schedule. And, you know, she wrote a blog post or it was an interview or something a while back, and it was like, what's your number one secret to success? And she said, always do what you say you're gonna do. And I know that she. One of her containers is, this is the deadline. And it doesn't mean that she hasn't changed her mind. I know she was gonna create a magazine, and now it's either on the shelf or it's off the table entirely. But so, you know, she said she was going to do it. And then an up leveling of integrity was actually, oh, no, this isn't an alignment. We're not going to do it. So I don't think it means at all costs, but deadline. Like, you know, if you say you're going to do it, do it. And that's one thing, like, to your point, that this, like, well, I just want to do what I want to do all day, every day. And I think we can. What's really interesting. Is this the kind of rise of the lifestyle entrepreneur? People are like, well, I'm just gonna build an info product, I'm gonna write an ebook, and then I'm gonna live in Bali for a year, sipping my ties, and I'm gonna make $100,000 a year. It's like, awesome. If that's really what you want to do, go for it and let me know how it goes. But I think what. What we forget is that it actually takes a lot of planning and organization and structure and clarity to create that space to play. And I think if we're really on mission with our work, it becomes something that we always want to, not always want to be engaging with. You know, you don't want to be, like, thinking about it while you're having sex necessarily, but it's something that you are playing in and evolving over time.

Yeah. That's awesome. I love that. Beautiful. So many things that you said are so awesome. I love that the honoring what you say you're going to do, I think that's so powerful. And I also love that you said earlier, you said that entrepreneurship is just like one of the best personal growth things. And I think those two combined. You're going to create this, and you're going to do it by this time is like fertile soil for transformation. Because all of your stuff comes up. You're like, no, I know I said I was gonna do it then, but no, I think maybe tomorrow.

All of your stuff that you didn't even know was there, it's like, oh, what's in this door? And then the whole attic's worth of your childhood stuff and your parents stuff and your, you know, like, attachments to the beauty myth and, like, freaking all of it, just, like, totally. Which, you know, what a blessing.

Yeah. That's so awesome. It's really funny because I was just thinking about this actually this morning, because I'm going to be shooting the promo video for this conference, Rock youk goddess life. Like, August 20, you know, and I don't feel like I'm totally in, like, the best shape ever. And I'm like, I'm gonna push it back. I'm gonna push it back, you know? And I'm like, what? No, this is who I am right now. But it's like the wanting to push it back till we're ready. Like, when are we gonna be ready? Can you talk about that? Because I know that's a big thing in business of like, oh, I'm gonna start my business, or I'm gonna Start my coaching practice or I'm gonna start whatever when I'm ready, right?

It's so funny. It's not perfect your goddess, right? It's not perfect your goddess. It's rocket. Which means right now, as is full volume. Yeah, Ready. So. There's a little paradox here, right? In that sometimes our heart just knows that it's not time. And you know, last year I know that I was going to relaunch a program that I had done in 2012. And there was just something like, it was like pushing a boulder uphill, like everything. And I just had to pause and get like, okay, hold on a second. Is this like a fee? Is this a fear? Is this an upper limiting thing? Is this like, what is this resistance about? And I got really clear that it was, it wasn't time. There was, there were other things that were blooming in my heart. There was an evolution of it and it wasn't ready. It's like the baby wasn't ready to be born. And it wasn't because I was afraid of pushing. It was just like still cooking in there, you know, it's just not time. And I think that getting that distinction, like, is it because I'm afraid to push or is it because the baby's just not ready yet? And so, yeah, this whole ready thing is really interesting. And when we realize that, it's because we're just afraid. And I think one way to test it is like, well, go for it and see what happens. I mean, that's one way to know, like, I could push and just see what happens and I'll realize, oh, okay, now clear. But if just sitting and doing nothing and being like, I don't know, so I guess I'm just not ready and I'm not going to do anything. If you don't know why you're not feeling ready, maybe just give it a go and you'll find out soon enough why that's where all your stuff starts to show up, as you were saying, right? It's like you could have like waited to do this whole event until you felt like you had your like, you know, perfect, like pre baby or whatever body, right? And then, you know, you would find probably reasons to put that off too because it's something really actually deeper, right?

Yeah.

So what I, you know, I think about this a lot. Like people are ready to feel confident. Like when I feel confident, then I'll know that it's time. And I think that I don't feel confident in my skill a lot of the time. And I've been running a business for seven years, but I feel confident in my commitment. And so when I come back home to that, why the thing that I'm actually committed to, then I feel confident in that commitment. And then I'm willing actually, even though it's scary to, you know, fail to follow my ass, to look stupid, to be embarrassed, to overcome like figuring out this tech thing that I don't know how to do or like whatever it is that I'm, that I'm afraid of on my path, I'm willing to face it because there's something bigger that I'm committed to. It's much bigger than my fear of, you know, technology or looking like an idiot. And so I think coming home to that versus trying to be confident in what we know or how things are going to turn out. There's actually no way to know how things are going to turn out. We can have intention, we can feel it, believe it, see it, taste it, and also paradoxically know that there's no way to actually know fully. I guess some woo folks could argue that. But anyway, which I get. But anyway, you know, there's that level of non attachment that we can't actually control the outcome and we can have all the best intentions and be willing to fall on our butts because there's actually what we're confident in is our commitment.

I love that, the confidence that's so powerful, the commitment. Because I mean I think of all the things that I've ever done that have been had true meaning to me. I was not confident. I was scared shitless. I was like, oh my God, I'm sweating, I have butterflies. Like, oh my God. You know, before like my first coaching call, I was like, this sucks. Like you can see why people don't want to do anything because there's that level of, you know, all of that that comes up and you're like having that commitment in place, I love that of that that pulls you forward. You're like, okay, great. I feel super nervous and I have this commitment. I'm committed to doing this. Awesome.

And then the other level of confidence that we're wanting to do, to have before we start, we get as the prize on the other side and it's like, you know, I've had friends who have had kids and they're like, they get through labor and they're alive with a baby in their arms and they're like shit. Like I'm the kind of woman that can handle that. Like I did that. I could. I. And there's this confidence of, like, shit, I can do that. And it's like going through a launch, like, oh, my God, I pulled it off. It wasn't perfect, but I pulled it off. Or getting through, you know, doing, like, for me, it was like, public speaking was so hard for me in the beginning, and I had so many moments. Like, I remember moments where I was, you know, speak. Doing a workshop, and literally in the middle of the workshop, thought to myself, like, I want to die right now. Like, I want to climb under a rock. Probably, you know, if given the option, I wouldn't have chosen absolute death, but literally had the thought in my mind, like, I want to die. I want to evaporate. I want to climb under a rock and disappear. I'm so mortified right now, you know? And then afterwards, it was like, whoo, I did it. Okay, I'm gonna do it again. Even though it was so hard. But that confidence comes from. Actually, it's the prize. The confidence is the prize. You don't get the prize. It's not bait. It's the prize.

Totally. That's awesome. I love that story. Yeah. I remember I talked about doing interviews for literally, I think, a year. Oh, I'm gonna start doing interviews. I'm gonna start doing interviews. Yeah, I'm gonna do interviews. This was, I don't know, how long ago, seven years, six years ago or something. I was, like, so nervous to start. When I finally did it, it just, you know, I got confidence and it became easier. And Now I've done 150 plus interviews. Like, it's just. It's just fun. Like, it's. I don't get nervous, you know, it's. It's become just part of who I am, which is so awesome. I love that you shared that story of the public speaking. And now you feel, you know, comfortable, confident.

Right, Right. Yeah. It just takes more doing it. And I mean, still seven years later, I still feel like I want to vomit and still fantasize about, like, feigning illness or something before I have to get on stage. And, you know, and every time, I like it a little bit more than I liked it the last.

That's very cool. And I love this. I think it's so powerful just to have this conversation around this, like, the vulnerability of being willing to say, you know, like, I appreciate you saying, like, okay, yeah, it's not super easy for me because I think a lot of people can probably look at you and look at what you're creating in your business and, like, oh, it's easy for her. And I think the more of us women talk about, like, you know, it wasn't easy, and I had to work through a lot to have that. I think it's so powerful for. For us women to state that, you know, to share that.

Yeah.

Okay, so I'd love to talk about sisterhood. I know this is really, really important to you, and it's a big part of your why and your mission. So can you talk to us about sisterhood? What is it and how do we create more of it?

Yeah. So, you know, for all of human history we have, up until very recently, we've lived in community. And if we were living in community as women, we would typically be in the fields together, you know, weaving together, cooking together, tending the fires together, watching babies. And if any one of us were feeling sad, excited, you know, frustrated, anything, no matter what we were feeling, it would be very seen and felt and witnessed by our sisters. And so, you know, then we started getting into nuclear single family living and really got away from having this supportive sisterhood right around us all the time. And women sort of went into isolation. But we are really naturally creatures of community. I mean, even introverts, even people who like their time alone, we all need that space to go back and be. Go within and be by ourselves. But to navigate our emotional everything in isolation is totally against our nature. And what I kind of discovered both in my own life, through going through my divorce and, and, you know, just like building my business, like, the incredible value, the importance, how critical it was for me to have close women in my life that I could lean on through all of that. And then also in my work, I was working with clients one on one. And then I started doing group programs and retreats. And it was really amazing to me the kind of transformation that would happen in that space of community, in the group programs, on the retreats, I was like, wow. So I'm working with these women over a shorter period of time, but they're having deeper impact in their lives than some of my one on one clients who I've been working with for a long time. And I got that it was actually because they had this supportive space where they could share things that they felt shame around and they would land in love and where they had. For a while, I thought it was about accountability, and it really had next to nothing to do with accountability. It had to do with celebration and appreciation and to feel like, gosh, what I'm thinking and feeling about myself, about the world, about my dreams, all of It. It's not alien to these women. They can get it and hold me in it. So I think it's so incredibly important for all women, certainly for women on the entrepreneurial journey, but really all women to have this experience of sisterhood in their lives. And I think that how we cultivate it is start starting, first of all, to see all women as whole and beautiful. And this is like, such a big one. I'm so over, like, the real women memes, like, real women have curves, real women, blah, blah, blah, real women. And I'm like, you know, real women have vaginas. And even that is debatable, maybe. Who am I actually to say, you know, it's more division, it's more separation, and that's not going to serve us. So I think that it starts by, you know, when we embrace all women as our sisters, when we stop gossiping about one another, when we get that just because someone is younger or older doesn't mean anything about her. She's just in her stage of life and beautiful and perfect where she is. And I think the more that we can embrace all of our sisters, wherever they are, the more we will feel embraced in sisterhood. And I think the other thing is a willingness to go there with and create depth in our relationships. And so for so long, we've related on a more shallow level. We talk about just the weather or we talk about just business. And we're just kids. Kids, and we're whole, dynamic beings with, you know, frustrations and dreams and desires and, you know, bodies and to open up a space to talk about all of that. And I see in entrepreneurial communities a lot of where the conversation can get lopsided to just talking about business. And I see in communities with moms a lot that the conversation can be lopsided to just talking about kids or marriage. And there's so much more to us than just the parts of our lives. So I think that part of it is really embracing all women at all stages of life, in all of their experience as beautiful and perfect on their path, so that we can also start to embrace ourselves as beautiful and perfect on our path in these bodies in our lives, and then also really opening up the space with women in our lives to talk about it all, to let it all hang out. And so I think one thing that's helpful is looking at our relationships and seeing. Seeing which direction is. Is our relating or conversation skewed in. And it's okay, you know, like, I don't talk to my friends who aren't entrepreneurs and don't have entrepreneurial ambition. About, you know, my autoresponder series, like, they don't know. They don't really care. They also don't really talk to me that much about their renovations, because I don't. I've never renovated. I don't know what that's like. We love one another, though, and so we can. But we can still look at which direction is this conversation skewed in and how can we actually have more depth, meaning, and fullness in our conversation?

Very cool. Okay, so how do we go about cultivating this more? You know, because I think that there is a strong desire in our world, and now we're in, like, you know, there's technology and there's online, and those connections are really great. You know, I'm super grateful for those connections, and I know the women that I'm connected with are super grateful. But then there's also, like, something about that live. That live witnessing, holding space, energetic vibration, mojo, magic. So can you talk about that and how we. How we create that? Like, what if we don't have that or we don't have that many great friends? Or we would like to go deeper with our friends, but we don't know how to navigate that. What's your wisdom for that?

Yeah. So one, I think, is just making time for friendship. I think that sort of, like society's standard is that the most important person in your life is your partner, and then the next important people are your kids, and then the next important people are maybe your extended family. And, you know, friends often kind of, like, get a lower rung on the totem pole. And I like to think of, well, this will kind of frame this pun intended, as you'll see in a moment. I was looking online one day, and I was like, ooh, what does it mean to sister? The verb like, what is sistering? So I started. I was like, what is that? Is anybody using that word? What is that? And I looked it up, and in construction terminology, sisters are the supporting beams of a physical structure. And sistering is the act of joining those physical. Those beams together, reinforcing one another. So sisters are actually the support of the bones of a structure. And sistering is to support where one beam supports another beam. I was like, this is just poetry. This is so poetic. It's perfect. And I think of sisterhood as the supportive web for all of our other life, for our mothering, for our partnering, for, you know, the work that we're doing in the world, for whatever it may be. This is like the supportive web. And so I think that first, like really getting how valuable that is. And maybe it's not a totem pole and it doesn't have to be a hierarchy in that way, but it's an ecology. You know, you take this away and you lose the support structure that everything is built else is built in. It's like, it would be like, you know, oh, I'm going to build a home. Let me just go buy lots of furniture and everything. And you have no walls, you have no room. So I think first having that framework, that this is your framework, that this is your supportive structure for your life. And then if that's the case, creating time for those relationships in the same way that we would create time for our partnership. It's widely accepted that if you want to have a healthy partnership, you need to have date nights and create time where it's just the two of you together without the kids, without the extended family, without work, that you need that time. And I don't think that's a radical concept. Not everybody does it, but everybody knows that it's good for them. It's like nobody disputes that vegetables are healthy. Okay, yes, we figured that out by now. Water is good, vegetables are healthy, and date nights are good. But it's still for a lot of people a little radical to think about creating time to go away with just your girlfriends to go on, you know, and it doesn't have to mean go away like, and I'm not talking about going to an all inclusive resort and getting smashed. I mean, if that's your floats your boat, like, cool. But it doesn't have to be going away away, but it means having that sacred time. And it can be, you know, one of the things that I've been doing in San Francisco is hosting a monthly dinner for just, you know, a group of women. Not at my house, because that's too much. I don't want to deal with it. I don't want to wash dishes that badly. So we'll pick a restaurant and you know, each month we kind of rotate like who wants to make the reservations this month? And we just sit and we just talk about life. And I have a business, I have other people in my life to attend to. I have my own self care, but I make that time a priority. And I have times that I go away with girlfriends. And I know that it's harder for women in different stages, like new mamas, to make that time. And I have friends in my life who are new mamas and they Create the time to go away and to nurture themselves in that way. So I think that's one thing is just having that dedicated time where you're not also with one eye on the kid while you're trying to have the conversation, but that it's actually just sister to sister, no distractions, just being together, either one to one or in a group. And so I think that that is so, so important. And if everyone watching this just started there by cultivating more of that, we would have more sisterhood. And, you know, as for, like, how do we do that if we don't have those friendships yet? I think just first having the devotion to. To creating that web for ourselves, and, you know, that might mean, like, the uncomfortable, like, oh, I'm gonna go up to this woman who I keep seeing in yoga class and be like, hey, I keep seeing you in yoga class. Like, do you want to go out and, like, hang out sometime? Right now I'm, like, trying to build my group of friends, and obviously we're both into yoga. Maybe we could go and hang out sometimes. Do you want to go and get a cup of tea, or do you want to go? I don't know. What do yoga people do? Get a juice.

So is that what you did because you moved to San Francisco, relatively new, right? Is that kind of. Or did you already have a support system there?

You know, what I did is I asked my friends where I lived, which was New York. Who do you know in San Francisco that you can introduce me to? I want to know some women in San Francisco. And they just made introductions, and I made a point to go out for lunch or tea with those women or hop on the phone with them. And now they're some of my closest friends. So just making the time to cultivate those friendships by asking other people. And now that we have the Internet, I mean, almost anyone can post on Facebook and be like, hey, who do you know in XYZ City that I'm going to? I want to know them. I'm on a mission to make new friends.

Very cool. Okay, so I have another question for you. I love this. This conversation for numerous reasons. Personally, I love it because I've played in sports for most of my life. I've been in that sisterhood. But when I got into college, and I've always been kind of introverted, people would never think that. But sisterhood has not been like, my dominant thing. Like, I'm just doing my own thing. Like, I got friends, but it's just. It isn't my. It hasn't been my dominant focus, so I feel a call to it. So I appreciate you sharing it. And have you always been like this? Like, I have some friends who are just like, all about it and they're like so great at it. And then I have some friends who are kind of like me and they're like, not really that into it. So I'm just curious of like, what was, what's your journey been like?

Yeah, so I've always like described myself as a woman's woman or girl's girl. Like, I was just. I've always had girlfriends and it's always been really important to me to have my girlfriends. And I'm definitely an extrovert and like being around people most of the time. But growing up, my mom really struggled with depression and I watched her really struggle in isolation. And I remember as a little girl looking at her and being like, she needs her friends. Where are her friends? And my mom is, you know, through her own struggle with depression and, you know, and also being really shy. My mom has always been really introverted and really shy. She didn't really have a lot of friends when I was growing up. She didn't spend much time with her friends. So I think that, you know, and now it's amazing because like my mom started, this is funny. She's like, I've been reading your blog and I want to make new friends. And so she's like, got this amazing group of girlfriends now. And I'm not taking credit for it, but she just like genuinely found the need within her or the desire within herself to create a circle of girlfriends. And she has that and it's so beautiful to see. And so I think that for me, yes, I've always had it. But then seeing for other women who haven't necessarily always had it, what an impact it made for them to have it, I started to get, oh, this is a more universal thing. And we're all going to do sisterhood in our own way. You know, I run these nine month mastermind experiences where we'll have a group of women. Some are like gung ho engaged, letting us know what's going on with their lives. Like always in it the whole time. Some women are like, hi, I'm here, here's my update. And then you kind of feel them like they're like, quiet for a while and they're in their world doing their thing. And I think the freedom to like, it's okay, you were here for you. You know that we're here for you. We have Your back. There's a whole, you know, I think sisterhood itself is a whole other personal development journey, a whole other odyssey that it brings up. It's a relationship like any other relationship. So, you know, we have mom stuff, we have dad stuff, we have partner stuff, we have parents stuff, we have friends stuff too. And it brings up, it's a whole other layer of like, comparison and jealousy and judgment and exclusion and inclusion and coolness and not coolness. And it brings up all that stuff too. And I think that, you know, it's just, it's different for everyone. And what I'm learning to do increasingly is just honor that. You know, I do sisterhood in a kind of full on way. Give it all to me. I want to give it all to you and other people. Not everybody does, and that's okay. And their way of doing sisterhood might be, oh, I can relax knowing that you're here for me. And I want you to know that I'm here for you. And like, I'm gonna go offline for a couple weeks. Don't call me. And we can be like, okay, cool. That's how she needs to do it.

Yeah, okay.

And we can honor that.

Very cool. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. So is this different for women and men? You know, have you found that women need women, like we. The conversations that we have with women? Well, I'll just state what I'm thinking. The conversations that I have with women are very different than the conversations with men. And when I try to bring a conversation that I want to have with a woman to a man, it's not the same. So have you, what are your thoughts on that? Is there like, is that one of the importance for having sisterhood? Like that there is that biological, I don't know, something magical that happens woman to woman? That can't be. Men can't do that.

Well, I originally started working just with women because I noticed that for most of the women that I worked with, it provided a safe space. Space for them to share whatever was going on for them. And that can certainly happen in mixed groups as well with men and women. So I'm not saying that like categorically speaking, women open up more in this space with other women. But I found that often, and maybe most of the time even that that was the case. And I just wanted to lower, like, I just wanted to create the best container, the best environment possible for them to open up. That was my number one motivation, is like, let's just have what feels like a really Safe space. So, you know, I'm part of communities where I let it all hang out with men and women. I'm part of communities where I let it all hang out, and it's just women. So I think it really depends. But, you know, women were wired the same. You know, we were synced up with the moon and the tides, and we, hormonally speaking, are literally, quite literally wired the same. And there's something about having that. And, you know, if you spend a lot of time with women, you'll sync up with them. Your cycle will sync up with them. We're wired the same. And there's something about navigating life with the support of people who understand your wiring, because they're wired that way, too, even if it's just hormonal wiring. Because as we've identified, like, there are ways that we aren't wired the same. Some are extroverts, some are introverts. And, you know, in those ways, we might relate to other people, men or women, who are wired that way. But hormonally speaking, we're wired the same. And that creates this sort of ebb and flow throughout our months that I think other women can, when tuned in, understand as well. And if we can sort of harmonize with one another on that level, I don't mean you have to, like, cycle with other women. I don't mean harmonizing literally on that level. It's not like a problem if you're not. But to get that. That we're. We're not men. And hormonally, energetically, there's a different story arc to life for us. That understanding that you can really only fully understand by being in it, is a really special relationship. And so, to me, this isn't sisterhood at the exclusion of community with men at all. It's not because I think, like, men are dumb animals that can't get what we're going through at all, which, you know, it's that there's a special relationship that can happen here in the same way that, like, playing with a baby lights me up in a way that, like, having a conversation with a girlfriend can't. There's no one else that can light me up in that particular way that a little baby or, like, playing with the dog will, you know, like, it enlivens me in a particular way that nothing else does. So I think that in the same way, sisterhood creates a space that nothing else creates. That's exactly that feeling. And why not have all the feelings?

Why not? Yeah, it's just like. And those words that are coming up for me are like connection and nourishment on all levels from men, women, dogs, children, everybody.

Yeah, totally beautiful. And I think it's just choosing the environment that will most allow us to open up to. The more that we open up in our vulnerability, the more access we have to another level of our freedom. The greater access we have to another level of our freedom, the more impact we can make in the world. And so if sisterhood is the key that unlocks that space to feel more vulnerable, to share, then use it.

Awesome. So any last thoughts for women on how to rock their goddess lives even more? I mean, you've given us like ridiculous amount of goodness. Just if there's anything.

I had a coach years ago, Brian Franklin. Brian Franklin and Jennifer Russell. They're married couple and I worked with them several years ago and there was a question that they, that they gave us that is just with me right now, which is, what do you want? And it's so simple, what do you want? And it's not flowery language, you know, it's just, what do you want? And I think that as women, as we step into answering that question for ourselves more and more, what do I want? We will find ourselves in more loving, compassionate, healthy world for everyone. The last thing I would leave everyone with is a question, what do you want?

Amen. A woman. Wonderful. So where can people find more about you? Your workshops, your retreats, all your goodness.

So everything's on my website, which is nishamoodley.com and her beautiful new website. Beautiful new website.

Gorgeous.

Thank you. And I can be found on Facebook and Twitter too. I would love to hang out with everyone.

Fantastic. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for sharing your goodness. Lots and lots of love. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mama Goddess. Sending you lots of love and blessings. Blessings. If you'd like to connect more, go to mamagoddess.com until next time. Keep rocking it and have an awesome day.