Indigenous Wisdom on Pregnancy and Birth with Carla Stang, Ph.D.

Welcome to Mama Goddess. I'm your host, Alexandra J. Johnson. This podcast is all about rocking your goddess life, creating vibrant health and celebrating motherhood and family life. It's about living an authentically awesome life. Let's have some fun.

Hello, I'm Alexander J. Johnson and today's guest is Carla Tseng. Karla received an honors degree in anthropology at the University of Sydney. She completed her doctorate in social anthropology at the University of Cambridge. She is particularly interested in the life experiences of Amazonian women and also cross culturally in events of mystical experience, the effectiveness of ritual, the experience of landscape and of ordinary reality. She is also the author of A Walk to the river in Amazonia, Ordinary Reality for the Minuku Indians. Hi, Carla, welcome. Hi.

How are you, Alexandra?

I'm fantastic, thank you. I'm so excited to be talking with you today.

Me too.

And I would love to just start off with hearing a little bit about your personal journey and what led you to do the work that you do and also write your book, A Walk to the river in Amazonia. Fascinating.

Okay. Well, I guess my interest in anthropology started very young. I had from a very young age kind of a dissatisfaction with, I guess, the culture around me, the way things were being done. And that made me curious about other cultures. So just didn't even, like as a little girl, snippets from Pop, you know, like in popular culture, in movies or books about other cultures would kind of draw me in. So there was always this interest in how other people were doing things, especially I guess environmentally and socially and I guess spiritually you could call it. So that's where the interest in anthropology came from. And I was always also particularly drawn to Amazonia. I'm not sure quite why. It was just a personal connection whenever I read or saw anything to do with that. So that's where that general orientation came from. That's amazing.

So then you spent time with the Amazonian people?

Yes, I spent about a year and a bit with them in Brazil. It's in a national park. It's in a national park which is very isolated because it's illegal to kind of enter there as anyone but the Indians or unless you're kind of invited in there. So yeah, I spent about a year with them and that's where the experiences that I drew from formed the basis of the book that you mentioned.

So amazing. What an experience. What can Western women learn from the experiences of. From the Amazonian women? Because I would imagine our cultures are very different.

Yes, they are very different, particularly when it comes to Kind of the gender divide, I guess you could call it. I think the first thing that springs to mind is the togetherness of women in their everyday lives and in every kind of event in their lives compared to what happens in our culture, where we tend to be quite isolated. So, you know, basically in Mexico culture, the men do their thing most of the time and the women do their thing separately. And it's usually the women of the household, a household of like 25 people. So, you know, 10 or 15 women kind of doing everything together from dawn till dusk and even sleeping, because everyone sleeps together in a house. And I think that. That. I think that we don't realize the degree of isolation that we experience as Western women, and we are too critical of ourselves. So things like postnatal depression and other kinds of depression that women experience, they take as like a personal failure. Whereas I think it's actually a failure of our culture, which has increasingly made women do everything by themselves, which is, I believe, not a natural way to be doing things like working and birthing and bringing up children. That's one.

What's something we can do about that?

What do you think? We.

Yeah, like, do we create more support system around us? Because it seems like a lot of women of us are just like, we can do it by ourselves. But from what you're saying, it just seems like there's a need for us to have support and have community around us, especially during pregnancy or birth.

Exactly. I think just the recognition, first of all, that that is beneficial makes a huge difference, and it changes our actions. So, you know, if a woman's deciding, oh, should I go and, you know, do some more work, or should I just call my girlfriend? Because I really feel like I need to and go and see her, or go and do a prenatal yoga class with all of these other women making that a priority and being. I mean, you could be creative with bringing women together in different ways, because I do. I did see it as these kind of, especially in life, what we're talking about today, these kind of important life stage things are just handled so much more seamlessly in a culture where you do get that support. So any way that we can kind of simulate that and just. Yeah, I guess really putting energy into our female relationships, choosing to do that. And I know that there's even. I mean, in terms of. I'm not a scientist, I'm more of a philosopher, but I know there's been studies on how being with other women actually causes an oxytocin release, the hormone of Love and pleasure and satisfaction in the brain and through the body. Actually oxytocin is secreted elsewhere too, I know from my husband. So it's actually on a physical kind of biological level. You even see that this is perhaps how we most easily, how we live best, you know, as women with other women.

That's awesome.

I love that.

I love that image of us releasing oxytocin. Feel good hormone by being.

I know and try it. I mean, I think I did learn from that experience in the Amazon and I think it did change my relationship to other women and the priority I give those relationships. And just the more you do it, the better it feels. I highly recommend it, especially during pregnancy and afterwards.

So. Great. And then how do they go through pregnancy, the Amazonian women, through pregnancy, birth and child raising differently than we do? They have the community. But is there anything else, like any distinct differences?

I mean, of course there's commonalities of experience, but there's so many differences. Like for example, in pregnancy, during pregnancy there's a lot of, you know, kind of physical activity continues. So the body's kept very agile and limber. So that makes birth a lot of, you know, easier enterprise. That being said, as long as there are no complications during birth. But even, you know, the kind of ordinary movements that they have from when they're very young till their death, which are just squatting to go to the bathroom, to go to the, you know, to go to do their bowel movements and what have you. So that's a natural movement for them. So we really have to. And I recommend, I do it myself, prenatal yoga and things that will help you keep your body strong and limber like that. And they do a lot of walking even when they're pregnant, with great loads on their heads of water and food even when they're pregnant. And my midwife will recommend the same thing right up until birth, really walking every day as much as you can. Sorry, I'm a little breathless because I am so pregnant right now. I have to catch my breath every so often. But also for them, like in terms of how they see themselves, they in pregnancy, for them, being pregnant is kind of the ultimate. The ultimate, I guess, fruition of being a woman. The ultimate, you know, that's what they kind of feel we were made to do. So when you're. They feel very beautiful and it's a very kind of sexy thing to be pregnant. So there's a lot of joking about who had about sex during pregnancy. So I don't know, like you Know that might be different for some women in our society or not.

Yeah, well, I think it's very. I mean, I think it's probably unique, but it's not something that's talked about very often. I haven't seen, from what I've read and what I've studied, that, you know, being pregnant is sexy and amazing. You know, it seems like there's the body weight, things like that.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I think that that's a. You're touching on a really good point, which is the difference in a lot of this is, I mean between like a more western culture and a non industrial kind of culture like the Mehinakos is that they. That you see a lot of this is more visible. So like when I talked about togetherness from when you're a little girl, you're kind of seeing and hearing say the banter, the jokey banter about being sexy when you're pregnant or you see births from when you're a tiny child yourself. So there's like the difference between the cultures in relation to things like birth and having a baby afterwards and pregnancy is that you are familiar with all of these things, kind of wise about them in a way that in our culture, because not spoken about, as you said, Alexandra, we kind of have to catch up in a sense once we get pregnant or planning to catch up on the wisdom, you know, and get it somehow, whether it's from older women or other women or books or movement or however.

Yeah, I totally agree. I love that you said that because that's what I felt like as soon as I was preparing to get pregnant and then pregnancy I am, I've bought so many books and people are like, it's just natural for women to give birth. You don't need to read that much. But like you said, there's a feeling of missing. Like I have never seen a natural birth. I need to learn what's happening because I haven't grown up with it. So I think that's such a beautiful part of their culture that they see that it's so amazing.

Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I agree.

And then do they. I love that you also said that they walk and they exercise a lot too. I think obviously heard the squatting and walking is really good, but that they stay very active throughout their whole pregnancy. And I think sometimes from what I've heard and just like it seems like women don't maybe exercise as much or they don't want to or they get too big to actually move. So I think it's a great Reminder to move throughout the whole pregnancy. You're what, 38 weeks pregnant and doing yoga and exercising and walking.

Yeah. I mean, that being said, you have to. You're completely right. And you have to be sensitive to your body, and you do it, and your body actually does call for it, I feel, normally a lot of the time. But it also calls for rest, which you have to. And they give it to, you know, I don't want to give the false impression that they're kind of, you know, like gymnasts, you know, just these unbelievable bodies during pregnancy, which they are in some ways, but they also give, you know, they're very intuitive and will rest when they need to rest. Their days are a lot less structured. They do have that support from other women. And I also thought what you said was interesting when you said just now about how women say you're just supposed to know. Like, oh, not supposed to know, but it's natural. So why are you reading all these books? But I feel like our culture actually intervenes and kind of locks up and distorts what may be natural. I mean, maybe that's true, but if we were all living in a completely natural state, in some kind of a union with nature, we are very, very far from that in terms of our. Most people, in terms of our relationship to nature and our own bodies and our own psyches. So to just kind of say, oh, we should just be able to do it, it's not that simple. When our culture actually creates impediments for us just by being the way it is. And sometimes there are real impediments, like the structures in hospitals and attitudes of doctors can be quite difficult. And I find that with friends of mine who had that attitude towards birth, they usually get a shock when it comes to giving birth, when they haven't prepared, because it is an intense experience. I mean, even if it's a really, really easy birthday, I had a very. I was blessed with a very straightforward birth with my first child. It is still an incredibly intense, probably, well, for me, the most intense experience of my life. And to deal with that, I think, and to deal with it in the best way possible, you really. As much preparation as you can. And if you don't, I mean, some women just kind of. And it's, you know, that's up to each individual. It's not that important to them. And they just want to get over. They see it as a hurdle to get over. And, you know, you have the baby, whatever you have to do to make that happen, whether it's a cesarean or an epidural, or you can just have a natural birth. You find you can on the day, and then to just get this baby. But I think that there's a lot that that's, you know, there's nothing wrong with that, of course, but to get the most out of the experience, to prepare for it is beneficial. And in doing, like, in having a birth where you're really connected to the whole experience, I think it really prepares you for what happens after, which is having a baby in your arm. So physically and even chemically, you know, if you've had a natural birth, you have all this oxy, you're on, like, an oxytocin cloud for two weeks, apparently, which, you know, helps you deal with a lot of the more difficult aspects of those few weeks. And just in terms of your own relationship with yourself and your baby, I think it's really beneficial to do that. Preparation.

Yes, I would love. Because obviously you're in full force with that right now. I would love to hear what you recommend or how we actually prepare for birth. Like, mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, like, what do you recommend us to do and when do we start preparing for birth?

I think that the. Like, as early as you. As you want, as early as you feel you need to. So that could be very early in your pregnancy or before, like you did. Alexandra I tended not to really feel like I needed to call to do so until my, like, the end of my second trimester, the third of my. The beginning of my third, where it becomes very real. Well, it just became very real to me. It was imminent.

And.

So, I mean, obviously earlier probably would be better, but that was just me. And there's so many different. I mean, there's a lot of. There are a lot of things that we can draw on in our culture. Like, there are some wonderful books. So just looking for books that you personally relate to and physically doing exercise that does kind of keep you as limber and strong as possible, whether it's yoga or walking or whatever exercise kind of appeals to you. Dancing. I know women who belly dance during pregnancy. And mentally, I think a really powerful thing is creative visualization. So for me, that means every night I. I kind of tried to get myself very relaxed, into a kind of meditative state and just imagine myself. Birthing my baby and bringing her up into my arms and what that's all going to actually just look like so that it's very real. And I try and picture it, obviously in the best way. Way possible of being very smooth and Easy and beautiful. And I think making it real like that helps in various ways. And I also do kind of a lot of. Before I do that, that kind of comes at the end. There's a lot of physique, like I do different kind of practicing what's going to happen during labor. So movements and sounding and breathing for different stages of labor. And different women really kind of benefit from different styles of those things. So, you know, women finding their own ways of doing that. So some women, you know, are more still, and they'll really benefit from hypnobirthing techniques, which are, you know, the body's kept very still and relaxed. And while the breath, it does all of the work. And you're very calm throughout labor is the object there. And other women will do, you know, more movement and sounding. Other women will do combinations of those. And I think. I mean, there's so many things I could talk about in relation to this. I think another thing is to kind of form, you know, whether you're going to have your birth at home or in a hospital or in a birthing center. I know women do this in all different, beautiful, creative ways. You know, thinking about how to create this space with music and objects that will inspire them and lighting that will inspire them during birth. Because, yeah, being inspired during birth, I think is important. Like visualizing it, I think. I mean. I mean, that's a whole other topic. But it can be kind of seen as a kind of feminine hero's journey. So there are lots of ways to prepare yourself for that journey and to. And to kind of create the space of birthing so that that is what you're experiencing, not something that you're just kind of. As my doula, who's a very wise, incredible woman, says, she says you kind of think about merging with the process rather than controlling it or bearing it, just putting up with it, which I think is a really great way of seeing. Seeing it. Yeah.

I love that.

Yeah. And water helps a lot as well. Can help a lot for birth. And being very clear about what you want for your birth, all of that visualization can really bring you into kind of a clarity about what you want for your birth. And then that will make you kind of more forthright. If you're in a hospital situation, for instance, and, you know, and people are kind of pushing you in different directions. You know, you really need an induction or you really need a caesarean sometimes. You absolutely do. But just so that you feel empowered to make that you're making the decision that you are clear about what you wanted, and if you need to stay flexible so that if you need to do this or that which is different, that's all fine. But that you were not kind of just giving yourself over on the day because you really hadn't thought about it.

Right. What would you recommend? Because it seems like I love the idea of the hero's journey, too. Like preparing for the birth as a rite of passage, our hero's journey into stepping into a whole new phase of our. But do you recommend that people do this every day? Because it seems like if you're going to do it in this hero's journey way, merging and really opening to the process, you need to practice a lot. Is that true?

Yeah, I think you do. I think you do. I mean, I don't. I mean, if you can and you have the time and the energy and the wish and the desire. Yeah, as much and as early as possible. As I said, I only kind of get into it. This is my second pregnancy towards the end. But yeah, the more the better. So earlier is better for sure. And thinking about. That idea of yourself as a heroine, that idea actually comes from a wonderful book called Mother Mysteries, which my daughter, again, put me onto, by a woman called Maren Hanson, I think that's her last name, where she describes how, you know, the kind of archetypal hero's journey that Joseph Campbell and other. Well, she doesn't mention Joseph Campbell, but Joseph Campbell and other people talk about, you know, some. The masculine, the man confronting. Finally, the final step of the hero's journey is to slay the serpent that guards the treasure, or to fight the dragon at the castle gates which hold the treasure behind. And what Marin Hanson writes is that instead, for women, the treasure is the baby. So, like, during labor, at the very end, when it gets most intense and you're closest to your baby, it's that. That intensity you could see as serpent or snake, like this kind of threshold you have to cross to have your treasure, which is your baby, in your arms. And one way of seeing it is instead of trying to slay the serpent, which is what actually happens in hospitals a lot. Like you see and in movies we see with birth, women giving birth, and it's like, come on, fight. You can do it. Come on, get angry. You know, while you're pushing, push. And it's like this battle. And. And yes, you can. And so many women have pushed their babies out just like that. But what Marin Hanson is suggesting is that you don't necessarily have to see it that way. And maybe A more feminine way of seeing it is that we can, instead of fighting the serpent, getting to that stage of labor and fighting it, to actually go with it and say yes. Well, she doesn't say this, but she says to know the serpent, to merge. Again, she doesn't use the word merge, but she says, I think to become the serpent, which is, you know, transformation, what you were talking about, Alexandra, which is you're transforming into this other, an initiation into becoming something else. So to know it. And that might seem like I'm just speaking very esoterically and metaphorically. And it's easy to say all of these things when you're not in the throes of labor. And let me tell you, it isn't easy. Maybe the hardest physical feat on earth is to do what I'm suggesting. And I'm going to try with my own verse that's coming up, to. Merge with this process and say yes to the contractions, no matter how difficult it all is to love them and say yes and bring it on. Like, yes, this is good. This is supposed to be happening because all of this is bringing you closer to your baby. It's not pain that has to be fought because it's something unnatural happening. This is the most natural thing in the world. It's what's supposed to happen to your body. And so accepting and not trying to resist it, I believe causes less pain and can transform the experience not into a painless one, just into one that's experienced very differently.

I love that. That was amazing. I just had a flash. Everything that you just talked about, I was like, I can totally see.

In.

My birth, you're going to be like, flashing through my mind of, like, heroine's journey.

Say yes. Sorry, I tend to ramble on. And one thing, women who are listening, who are pregnant, who've been pregnant, you get kind of vague during the end of pregnancy and you can just ramble on. So please do cut me short if I ramble on and on. They are some beautiful images from those women.

Yeah, I think that was amazing. I love that. It's a beautiful image. And it reminds me the other day I was talking to my husband and I said, like, what you said of saying yes to the contractions and saying yes. I'm like, just a mental note. Make a note that in birth, as the contractions are intense, reminds me every contraction is one step closer to me holding. To us having our baby, there is a purpose and just reminds me that remind me of that. So I think, I love that what you were Saying too just to go with it and say yes. Yeah, that was beautiful. So very, very inspiring.

I've actually been inspired by other women in what I just said. So my incredible midwife, David Kolser, my doula, Deborah Rowell, who've really inspired me in those ways. So I can't really take credit, but I also. I think they're very, very helpful ideas, but embodied ideas that we can use.

Yeah, amazing. So what did you. How do you recommend working with fears of complications or fears about baby's health and just fear around the birth? Because I know that's a big issue in our culture as well, that people will just say, I don't want to feel anything. Just give me the epidural, just give me the drugs, give me whatever I need so I don't have to feel anything. And there's definitely fear around this. Could you just share a little bit of how maybe you've done that or what you recommend people to do to kind of prepare for that.

Prepare for the fear of the pain of pain or. Is that what you're saying?

Or just fear of birth in general?

Yeah, well, that's. I mean, I think a lot of what we've been talking about, like all of the preparation really helps with that, just because it becomes less of. Kind of a foreign idea, this kind of thing that's going to happen to you and something very familiar the more you do this separation. So I think that's the best way to deal with the fear is to just kind of tackle it head on and get familiar with what we've been talking about. Because a lot of it is. A lot of the fear is unnecessary. So if you do read more and more about it, for example, what we were just talking about, it's not. When you read about how birth works and how natural it is and how one process, kind of one kind of physical process leads to another and one chemical process and how it's all interconnected emotionally and on all these different levels. I think it actually can help with the fear because you see that, how beautifully it can all work if. If you work with your body and with what's meant to have what it wants to do during pregnancy and birthing. And having said all of that, I don't want to idealize the whole process because, of course, things can go wrong and they do in all cultures and throughout time. Women have. Things happen during birth, women have died in childbirth and what have you. But that's much rarer than. More rare than it needs to be in some cases. So I mean, not like when I say things are more rare. I'm not saying that there are places in the world where there's malnutrition and other limitations in women's lives which make pregnancy and birth much more dangerous. So I don't want to kind of paint a rosy picture of non industrial cultures and our culture, you know. But what I'm trying to say is things like epidurals and induction, a lot of women out of fear will revert to like a doctor will say to you, because I know, because I was very late with my first child. I was three weeks late. Well, they're not sure about the exact time, but about, you know, two or three weeks late. And everyone wanted to induce me and. And there's a lot of fear that's kind of put on you about that, what you could do to your child and what have you. And then it's really up to the woman and how much she knows about herself and about the birthing process, that she makes the decision herself about what's right for her and her baby that might be having the induction or not. But that knowledge, I think is the key out of fear, because it's natural to fear things. But then it's how you respond to those fears that count, I think. And I think knowledge is empowering in those situations. And there's these cascade effects that they talk about with epidurals and induction in nephew Jewels. Sorry, Alexandra, are you there or have I. Yeah, yeah, sorry. I'm just kind of talking on and on. When you have an induction, very often what they don't tell you is that inductions, because they're not. They do not kind of come with all of the normal hormonal secretions that would happen that would make the contractions less painful. The oxytocin, the huge oxytocin releases that happen in natural childbirth don't happen if you're given an induction. So they're incredibly. And they come on very suddenly with pitocin, osyntosin. So the pain is sudden. There's no kind of easing into it and none of the cushioning from the hormones. So the cascade effect that I'm talking about is that most women after they get into oxygen will have to get. Will just be just kneading in the epidural because the pain is just unbearable. And they haven't brought themselves into that state either psychologically or spiritually or however you want to talk about it. And then very often, because the process has been started unnaturally and you can't feel anything because you have an epidural feeling what's going on down there. That awareness is actually very much how the baby gets birthed. So if you're not feeling anything, often the process is kind of distorted and one then needs a cesarean. So you hear this kind of over and over again, this epidural, I mean, induction, epidural, cesarean scenario, over and over again. I've had so many friends who experienced this, and I think in those situations, that's when I'm talking about that the fear is actually what can cause the fear that the doctor kind of can put on you, or the fear of pain can actually cause things that you don't want to happen later along the line.

That's great too, what you're talking about, too, the preparation and the knowledge so that you know that you're not scared or intimidated by the doctor. You know your body and you trust your intuition and your body wisdom. That's such an important thing for us as women, right? To trust our intuition and trust that our body knows what it's doing. And I think in our culture, that isn't celebrated either, us trusting our body wisdom. You know, a lot of us women are fighting our bodies rather than opening up to the body wisdom. So I think that's really important for us to have that knowledge. Right. To know what's actually happening.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. And that also means that I'm not saying all doctors are evil and that we shouldn't listen to anyone else, but just the two things, kind of a balance between them, like knowing, like listening, as you say, to your body and trusting yourself and your intuition. And then you can relate to what people are saying from outside in a very different way. And if it's, you know, and sometimes a cesarean and an induction and all of the things are absolutely necessary. And an epidural is absolutely fine if that's what a woman wants. And so it's really up to everyone to just kind of feel in their own selves that they're in a good place, that they are making a decision on their own and not being pushed into it. Because very often that's what I hear women saying, that they feel like they were pushed into this or that situation. And I regret that.

I'm curious. You were saying you had a midwife and a doula, and then can you just talk a little bit about why you've chosen to do that with this birth? And did you have a midwife and a doula last birth? And Any other health professionals that you have used or are using to kind of guide you and support you through your pregnancy.

I, I had a, I had a doctor to begin with in for my first birth and then I decided to change to a. I was in Australia, in Sydney, and I decided to change to a midwife kind of very late, like in about 32 weeks, just because the doctor that I had, he was, he's a wonderful man and a wonderful doctor, but he, I just, I did find my meetings with him did produce a lot of fear in me and I, it's just not, wasn't. I kind of would walk out of my meetings with him not feeling the way I wanted to about my birth. So for instance, I would, at 32 weeks, my baby was in a posterior position, which is. And I said to him, oh, you know, he told me that and I said, oh, so what does that mean? And he said, well, if he stays in that position, you'll have to get a cesarean. So that of course scared me. And then I went home and googled it, as you do. And I found that 32 weeks is very early. The baby is still small enough that it's moving around all the time still. So there was no reason to think that it would stay in a posterior position. And I had asked him, well, what can I do about that? And he said, nothing, point blank. And there's a whole series of things, the easiest of which is just to kind of get down on your hands and knees as much as possible. Like there's an old wives kind of recommendation to wash the floor a lot before you give birth. And that's why apparently just being in that position gets a baby into a like a cat cow position in prenatal yoga. Right, so, so yeah, so that was why I changed then. And so I have a, and I had a very good experience in a birth center with a water birth. And so that's what I wanted to do this for this birth. And this year we're actually having it in having a home birth. Hopefully if everything goes as planned, we'll have a home birth. And I have a wonderful doula, as I said, and a wonderful midwife and a wonderful backup doctor as well. And one thing I would say is that with that, I would just say, because I've heard this with other women, is that for me the experience with hypnobirthing was that it was. And this is something my midwife said, that's why it's coming to mind. It was very helpful, but in the intense kind of transition stage of labor. It was basically, I found it impossible to continue that kind of relaxation and breathing I did personally. So. And a lot of other women do too. So my midwife actually recommends women not to kind of do too much, like not to put their faith all in hypnobirthing for their first birth. She'll suggest it more for their second birthday because it can be a little misleading that for all births, a woman can remain kind of in a calm trance like state for the entire birth, from beginning to crown, you know, to birthing. And some women indeed are able. They do that. But for some women, that's not something that they can do. It's not their best way for them to do it, I guess. And I was one of those women. So to have lots of resources, as many as possible. So what we were talking about before, so hypnobirthing I found wonderful preparation, but also other, you know, other kind of modalities, as much as you kind of can practice and what you feel you really relate to personally.

So, Carla, I would love to hear your thoughts on vaccinations and if you chose to do vaccinations and what your thoughts are on them.

We, my husband and I, chose not to vaccinate our son for the time being. He's still very little. We did that after doing a lot of research on the topic. It's funny because a lot of the kind of vitriol directed towards people who choose not to vaccinate is that it's kind of a carelessness in the parents who choose not to vaccinate. But it's been proven that percentage wise, the people who choose not to vaccinate are actually the ones who have done a huge amount. They tend to be well educated and have done a huge amount of research about it before they make that decision. And the reason we made that decision was because the risks, as far as we could see, outweighed the benefits. To give a newborn baby, especially the vaccines as they are, is a huge challenge to such a fragile immune system and we believe can be very detrimental to the health of children in various ways. And also certain chemicals that are inside a lot of the vaccines, including heavy metals like mercury and aluminum, are also a great danger to young children of such a young age or of any age, but especially at that age. And a lot of the vaccines given at that age, it's very hard to understand why they are given, like hepatitis B, for instance, which is sexually transmitted, or, you know, through the blood.

Right.

And given routinely. And I'm not Sure, about here, but in Australia, to newborn babies. And when I asked the midwife why they were doing that, she said, oh, because. Well, when I interrogated her about it, she admitted that it was because they have. That's their opportunity, because that's when they have the babies there and they don't know when they're going to have them again to have access to give the vaccination. So it's purely in terms of access. So that was our decision. But that's not to say that we won't ever give any vaccinations. It's definitely in my husband and I view more dangerous, most dangerous at the younger stages. So you can kind of pick and choose depending on what. Where you're taking your child and what is in particular, vaccines. Like, a lot of people who I know who've chosen not to vaccinate will vaccinate with polio vaccine if they travel to places like India and Kashmir, where there's a lot of live polio still, And they'll wait, for instance, to travel to those areas until their child is old enough, they believe, to handle the vaccines, what it does to the immune system of the child. So one friend of mine, a teacher, she chose to wait until after her children were two to go back to Kashmir, where she's from, and then to give the polio vaccine. So it's not to say it's one thing or the other. It's just about, I think, making your own choices after doing lots of research, not just trusting what the government or doctors say, because as we've seen through history, that changes. So making your own decisions and. And they might change over time, but especially for young boys. I think I mentioned that before, that apparently it's very young newborn baby boys, the risk of autism with doing the full vaccine, what do you call it, the whole gamut of them. It's been proven that. Well, hasn't been proven utterly, but there is a lot of evidence, according to Dr. Jay Gordon, that, and in his experience, that it's particularly dangerous for baby boys. Interesting. In terms of autism, I should say.

Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. Very cool. Well, thank you so much for sharing that on that.

The.

The back of. I know it's a very hot and also very important topic. So I love your perspective and I love your wisdom. So thank you.

My pleasure.

So what about the, you know, the birth and the vaccinations and then how would you recommend a woman prepare for this huge transition into becoming a mother? Because there seems like there's a lot of preparation for the and then there's like, oh, my gosh, I have a human being here now. Do you have any tips and recommendations for how to navigate the first few months after the baby's birth?

That's a very good question. It's very difficult. Let me think. In some ways, there's no way of preparing yourself. It's just a huge, scary, wonderful journey. I mean, there are lots of ways, I guess in some, you know, that you can to some extent. I mean, as I was saying, in different cultures it is easier because you do have different. Like in the Mehinahu culture where I do my research, there's just so much support with, you know, day to day. You should have all these other women to kind of hand your baby over to and give you advice. And you've seen all of this so many times before in your community. So it's easier. It is really challenging in our society particularly. I mean, it always is, I think, for any woman in any culture or time. But it is. So I think first of all, maybe that what I just mentioned, women like, drawing on your community, on your support network, you know, your mother, your sisters, your girlfriends, women that you meet during your pregnancy and if not, you know, going to kind of support. There's lots of different kind of support groups, like mother care groups, and there's some wonderful and really fun ones. So I think that really helps because being isolated with a little baby at home and the huge transformation that that is to your life, I think can be very, very difficult. And so really having those relationships are of utmost importance and just getting the practical help. So, for instance, for the first few weeks after birth during your pregnancy, to really make plans for those few weeks. In lots of cultures, it's really interesting because cultures from very different parts of the world, they come up with the same amount of time for afterbirth. So it's like about 40 days after birth, the mother and the baby are in a very special state that needs to be protected. So it's the time when they bond. The baby is, in a sense, I've heard someone call it in a fourth trimester, where it's almost like they're not of this world yet. So exposing them, I believe, to too much stimulation is not great. So it is good to kind of, I believe, I mean, this is a very personal thing. I believe that they are very vulnerable at that state in lots of different ways. And it's really good to kind of stay in a. Mostly at home, really, which is, as I said, very difficult. But women, it doesn't have to be if you've kind of planned things well. Because women, you really need a lot of rest after birth. In Ayurveda they talk about the different doshas. So there's air, fire and earth. And it can be a lot more complicated than that. But basically what happens is during birth your vata, your air is severely exacerbated, which means you are just opened up. Even if you don't think of it Ayurvedically, you're just very. You're in this state which is very different to before birth. You've been kind of opened and drained and you know, just physically of all of these, you know, blood. And you really need to just rest and not really do very much at all except be with your baby. And which is another challenge. Just really give yourself that time. So arranging things while you're pregnant so that you have that time as much as you can. I mean, it's different for different women how much they can in terms of their work and relationships and circumstances. But as much as you can to have that. And that will require a lot of support because that means you're not doing, doing as little as possible. Housework, preparation of food, looking after other people, work, other kinds of, you know, your usual career. Just anything that draws you out of that self nurturing and nurturing of the baby for that time I think is really. So you really need. It's hard to arrange those things, you know, getting your husband or who's going to cook and maybe your mother. But as much as you can, who's going to do the habit as much as you can. Arranging those practical things so that you are allowed, that you and your baby are allowed that special time. And I think it prevents a lot of health and other problems later along the line too.

And then what about. I love that too, just setting up the support system. What about the. Like you said, we need a lot of rest afterwards. You know, it's very common from what I read in here, that sleep deprivation is a key thing after the birth. So can you talk a little bit about that? What to do about sleep deprivation?

Sure. Well, that's an interesting topic because it brings us into another. I mean there's so many minefields around these topics. It's very interesting that they had anything to do with these kind of women's processes is so such volatile kind of topics. But they're very charged. But anyway, so sleep deprivation is related, I think to the topic of sleeping arrangements, which has been a very related to this kind of other hot topics that Dr. Sears famously talks about, because I'm not sure whether you saw that. We can get onto that later. This Time magazine cover, an article about breastfeeding late and that touched on the subject of co sleeping and not co sleeping and what have you. But I don't want to go off on that tangent right now. But they basically, in terms of sleep deprivation, what I found personally was that. You will be less sleep deprived if the baby sleeps. It's very simple. So that means how do you get your baby to sleep as much as he or she will, especially at the beginning? Now, some babies will just sleep by themselves. I've met lots of women who have babies like that in a crib by themselves, in the same room or in another room. It's actually recommended, even kind of in conservative circles now to have the bassinet in the room for I think, the first six months for SIDS, in case of SIDS. So some babies will just sleep for 12 hours or close to it from the very start. Most babies will not. Now, I struggled with this in the beginning. I had the kind of bassinet right by my bed and I'd breastfeed, put the baby back in the bassinet, then I'd wake up when the baby needed me again. Now, what happens is when the baby's in a separate space to you, even if it's just in a bassinet next to the bed, you go into a very deep. So when the baby wakes you up, you get very startled. And you kind of really wake up. And then when you breastfeed, and I would breastfeed sitting up with the baby on a breastfeeding pillow or otherwise supported, and then put the baby back in the bassinet once he was asleep. And then I'd try and get back to sleep, which would take a while. Now, I did get very tired from this until finally I just gave up and just kept him in the bed, which is co sleeping, of course. Now, what I found with co sleeping was that he would just nurse lying down beside me and I wouldn't really even notice. Sometimes I'd be so kind of asleep when he needed to nurse half asleep that it didn't really disturb my sleep pattern. So I would just kind of half wake up. But then I wouldn't have to put myself back to sleep and I'd wake up and I didn't really feel like when I was doing that, that kind of nursing on demand during the night co sleeping that I was sleep deprived. I just felt like this kind of went on very Naturally and seamlessly during the night. And I didn't really feel like I was woken during the night. So for me that was the solution. And I really enjoyed it as well, I have to say. So I had a nurse who was like the exact. Had exact opposite view in the beginning. And so I felt kind of very torn about it in the beginning. And then these. Such an incredible intimacy also that develops when you sleep like that. And it is so for me, it felt so incredibly natural. And since then I've read a lot about it and there are actually some very interesting figures about cross culturally, how unusual it is to not co. Sleep. So like there are studies, for instance, where, you know, there was one. What was it? It was in one survey, I think it was of a hundred societies, only parents in the United States maintained a separate kind of sleeping arrangement for their baby. And in another study there were 12, I think it was of 12 societies, all parents. But Americans slept with their babies until they weaned in all 12 societies. Except. So that's actually from a great book called Our Babies Ourselves by an amazing. What do they call them? It's an amazing field, ethnopediatrics. She's an anthropologist, but she works in the field of ethno pediatrics. So what's actually born out is that what we take as natural to have like a crib, you know, this beautiful nursery or beautiful bassinet or whatever is so natural for us. It's actually very rare phenomenon and might be causing our sleep deprivation. And she says very interesting things about, controversial things about SIDS as well, but that have been kind of evidenced in other studies about how babies naturally need to sleep next to their mothers because they're physically entrained by, they still are physically dependent on kind of an adult biological system to regulate their own. And that includes in sleep cycles. So the way that their brains work, unless they're these unusual babies that do sleep through the night, most babies, the way that their brains work is that they. Their sleep cycles and the breathing that goes with it depends on a larger system, which is that of the mothers to regulate it until they're about, I think it's two or three months old, between two and four months old. So this is what I've been reading lately and this was my own experience. And very simply, I think it does help with sleep deprivation.

It makes sense on so many levels, right? I mean, obviously it is controversial, but if you think about it, you've obviously done studies with tribes and different cultures. But if we were out in nature in A tribe. You would not put your child in some other hut tent, something you wouldn't do that your baby would be so close to you all the time. Right. It just seems exactly natural.

Yeah, absolutely. In the Amazon, the Mexinako women sleep with their babies on top of them and they don't wear any clothes in their hammocks. And there is no issue with putting babies to sleep. That's what I found interesting about this news coverage on the Time article about, you know, this controversial image of this woman breastfeeding her three year old. And I heard on the news them saying, oh, you know, this new attachment. There's this new attachment parenting that's being heralded as this new type of parenting which makes parenting even more intense and complicated. These intense and complicated were the exact words they used. And I thought, oh, that is so first of all, it's very ill informed because attachment parenting has been around for the last 30 years as you know, kind of as a subject that's been spoken about in our own culture. But. But it's. Sorry, where were we? I'm losing in my pregnancy.

Attachment therapy and having the baby close to you.

Yeah. So it's not complicated or intense. It's actually the opposite. It's so much more complicated. To try and get a little tiny baby to sleep by themselves is just, I mean all of the kind of gadgets and the wrapping and the this and the that that you need just seems so much more complicated and intense to me than what the women say of the Mehinaku community do where they just sleep with the baby on their. On their belly and there is no putting them to sleep. They get in their hammock and the baby and they swinging in their hammock and the baby falls asleep. When they do, it's very simple and we can kind of try. We can do things that are very similar to that to some extent as much as they work for you in your life, you know.

Yeah, I love it. Super, super inspiring. So I want to just ask you one more question and then we'll wrap up. Is there anything else or something that you would like to make sure to share? Share pass on to other women on their journey into motherhood. Is there anything else?

Let me see. I think we've spoken about a lot of what kind of was most like what is most uppermost in my own mind. I think maybe I could just say that, you know, connecting with your baby when you're pregnant is really important. Even if it's just writing one letter before the baby's birth or writing a diary during your pregnancy where you're talking to your baby can be really beautiful. Writing down your dreams while you're pregnant can be a really wonderful way to connect your baby before it's born. And I think connection with all of our issues with postpartum depression in our culture, I think that can be really important to make those connections. There's just a couple of practical things which I wish I'd known about earlier. In both my pregnancies, which is lower back pain. It's all about physio balls. Like a fit ball. Use that instead of a chair. Try that. They're not very expensive. They're like, you can get them for $30 or $40 and you can use them after the birth as well. And just. I just found it suggested to me and just using instead of a chair and you can use it for the birth, for labor as well. But it's really made a huge difference to my lower back. And also wrapping your belly in a later stages of pregnancy, which they do in different cultures, especially in Africa, which can help with your lower back pain. So they're probably. And thinking about rhythm for motherhood, like thinking about how you're going to have your days. Because babies really, really thrive on kind of not a routine necessarily, but a regular kind of patterning to the day, which can be very. It was very challenging to me because I'm not that kind of person naturally at all. And I've had to develop that more and more the older my first child gets. So that's something to think about as well. I think when you're. When you're starting out on this wonderful.

Day journey, so not having like a specific schedule, like 8 to 10, we do this 10 to 12, but just having more of a consistent daily rhythm. Like doing the same things every day.

Yeah, like. Well, it changes as I get older, but within naps kind of. Yeah, you're right. Not necessarily by the clock at all. But first we get up and then we have something. Then we. Well, it's different when you're breastfeeding, but you know, when you're breastfeeding, it's really all about when they nap and just. Well, that will also happen quite naturally. But if you find it usually does form a pattern, encouraging that, you know, and if you go for a walk at the same time every day, it sounds very simplistic. But especially when the children, even when they're only one or one and a half like my little one now, they just deal with things so much better when they know what's going to happen. And I think that that could have something to do with the way our societies used to work. Like, more similarly to the culture that I do. The cultures I do research with where things, you know, they happen at different times of the day in keeping with different times of the day. Like when you go to sleep and to do with, you know, the cycles of the sun and the moon and the seasons. These things, children really naturally respond to them. And yeah, if you can start thinking about those things, it's never too early because babies go up so quickly.

Yeah, that's great.

I love that.

Fantastic. So much wisdom.

Thank you.

Thank you for all of your knowledge, your research. It's truly beautiful. I'm very inspired. I have a whole bunch of personal notes. Sean Berry, I was that everyone listening has had lots of inspiration and aha's and notes as well. So thank you.

Thank you. My pleasure. And anytime, Alexandra, just give me a call.

Beautiful.

Thank you. Thank you. It's been a great honor and I hope if any of this has helped women in any way, really, really glad. Because I've been helped so much by other wonderful women. Almost everything I've said has actually come from other women.

Yeah. That's so beautiful. I love that too. Us women sharing our experiences and what we're learning and then just the web, especially with the Internet, that we can all connect and learn from other women and all of us women having the courage to share what we believe and what we've learned is how we all learn. So I appreciate you sharing all of your wisdom.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mama Goddess. Sending you lots of love and blessings. If you'd like to connect more, go to mamagoddess.com until next time. Keep rocking it and have an awesome day.