Money, A Love Story with Kate Northrup

Welcome to Mama Goddess. I'm your host, Alexandra J. Johnson. This podcast is all about rocking your goddess life, creating vibrant health and celebrating motherhood and family life. It's about living an authentically awesome life. Let's have. And today we have a gorgeous guest, Kate Northrup. Kate is a freedom seeker and a creative entrepreneur, and she reached financial freedom by the age of 28. And she is also the author of a new book called A Love Story, which we'll get into later. But welcome, Kate.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

I'm so excited to have you and I'm thrilled. I literally just announced your book comes out tomorrow, but I just bought it this morning and it looks so good.

Thank you. Thank you. It's really, it's an exciting time. I'm here in New York. I'm going on the Today show tomorrow. It's like lots of expansion, so I'm just holed up in this hotel room getting ready.

Nice. So tell us. I love the title of your book. Tell us about your book and why A Love Story.

Well, so many people have a love hate relationship with money. They know they need it to live and to do the things they want to do in life, but they kind of wish they didn't have to deal with it and they avoid it or, you know, they get into kind of a.

What's that?

What's it like when I'm a little bit like today when you have a combative relationship is what I'm trying to say that like somehow money is out to get them and not there to serve them or somebody like the government's, it's their fault or it's the economy, like, whatever that means and all that stuff. So I wanted to present the option for people and the possibility to have a conscious, loving relationship with their money because none of us is getting out this time around without dealing with money. You know, if you're watching this on your computer, you live in a society where you need to deal with money on a daily basis. So why not let it be a playground and an area to have fun and practice love and pleasure and all the things that we practice in the rest of our life with the rest of our relationships. But somehow, especially in the spiritual personal growth community, money tends to get left by the wayside. And it's like, oh, yeah, I'll be spiritual and, and I'll have fun and I'll use pleasure and I'll be conscious in all these other areas, but when it comes to money, I'm just going to be weird. And scared. It's a common thing. Yeah.

So why do you think we do that? What's our deal with money?

Yeah, well, so money is, money is a thing that we created as humans to exchange value for value. So it's made up, first of all, and it really is just a currency of energetic exchange. So I can say to you, hey, I value your service X number of dollars. And you could say to me, okay, great, and I would give you that money. And so it's really, it gets all tied up and intermingled with self worth and with our own value and with our own values. It's like a complicated emotional thing. And I think traditional personal finance wisdom and strategy deals with, okay, what you need to do is make a spreadsheet and you need to get your credit score checked and you need to like attack it and like, you know, cut down on your spending and like all hands on deck. And like really this whole philosophy around it that doesn't really get to the roots of why we do what we do with money. And I have never met anybody who does not have a little bit of crazy when it comes to their money.

Yeah, totally. Well, this is so interesting because I mean, money, we all have a relationship with money. But I definitely, you know, I've read the books and it's, you know, the, or you know, going at it. And that's just, I'm like, that's not inspiring. It stresses me out sometimes to read money books. I'm like, I don't even know what they're saying.

Yeah, it's like it's a whole other language. Or you suddenly need like a PhD in macroeconomics to understand it or like, you know, 401k and IRA and oh my gosh, all this stuff. And it's like, you know, all of those things. Sure, you can sit down with a financial planner and learn those things for sure. And I think it's a great idea if you find somebody that you really love and trust and you feel safe to ask the questions that feel like the stupid questions, because those are the questions you have to ask. So do all those things. But none of that stuff matters because we will never take sustainable action steps towards dreams or towards creating abundance in our lives if we don't deal with the under the surface emotional stuff first. Or at least those steps that we take will never be sustainable. And like a year from now we'll sabotage ourselves and get back into debt or you know, give whoever we're dating all our money or you know, all sorts of ridiculous Things that people do.

Right. So it's essentially the love story is essentially creating a relationship. Like creating a new love relationship with money.

Yes, a new love relationship with money. And changing your story from a story of fear or worry or doubt or self or self deprecation or self devaluing yourself to a story of love, which is a story of love with yourself and with money.

Very cool. And this is. I love that you brought that you're bringing this together because stress and money are so connected. And it seems like either you're really obsessed about your money or you just literally don't think about it. And both of them stress you out.

Right.

I mean, it's like you're stressed no matter what, whether you're aware of it or not. But it's just like, it seems like interculture is just lurking, like stress everywhere around money.

Well, it's one of those things. So if you're familiar with the chakra system of the body, there's the first through the seventh chakras, and they all deal with a different organ system or area of the body, and then also a different area energetically or emotionally in our lives. And the second chakra is. Is the area where our reproductive organs are in the low back. And it's the area of our bodies that are impacted by our relationship with money, sex and power. And those are certainly. Money and sex are the two things that we all want more of, but we're not allowed to talk about. And they're like the underbelly of the culture where it's like, don't talk about that. But everybody is having. Not everybody's having sex. At least everybody wants to be having sex. And like, everybody deals with money, so why are we not talking about them? You know? So I do think it's really an interesting thing that people are either, like, all about the money and like, let's, you know. And I'm just gonna make a gross generalization about the people in finance where it's like, oh, I run a hedge fund and, like, the purpose of my life is to grow money. What they. What they do.

Yes.

Like the healer who's on their quest, and they're just like, never going to think about it. And I'm just going to. So there are those extremes. And so the idea is if you are, you know, if you're watching this, this is probably more who you are to be more of the spiritual, more of the personal growth, more of the consciousness crowd. It's to incorporate your money into all those practices as another avenue to Learn about yourself and to grow and to evolve. Not like, oh, it's some separate thing. It's like, oh, just come to the party or with all the other areas of my life I'm working on. Right.

So it's like you can literally use money as a path for spirituality, awakening, transformation.

Yeah. Because you will learn so much about yourself when you begin to dive deep into your money story and into your money habits and into those beliefs that you have. It's really fascinating. And I just did a series that launches tomorrow called the Money Love Story series, where I interviewed just over 50 experts in the personal growth or health field. I don't know, whatever that kyber is, you know, us. And what was fascinating is in having these 10 to 15 minute conversations, many of them wrote back to me and said, I had an aha moment just in you asking me a few simple questions about my own money story. And that was fascinating to me because these are people who have been hanging in out in this world for like 5, 10, 20, 30, sometimes 40 years on these paths of exploration. And yet sometimes just those simple questions about your money stuff brought up like, oh, you know, that really unearthed a belief that I didn't know I had or a connection or whatever. So it's really juicy. It's like juicy fodder for that. Deepening your relationship with yourself and the world in general. Right.

Beautiful. Awesome. I dig it.

I'm inspired.

I mean, I'm definitely inspired. I've been kind of one of the people who's like, I don't really want to think about it that much, but. And so I'm stoked to actually have your book. I was telling my husband, like, this is so great. Like, she makes it fun and that there's a different way to go about dealing with your money.

Yeah. And it really is. One of the subtitles that I wanted for the book was Money A Love Story A kinder approach to financial freedom. It's not what we ended up going with, but it's like an alternate because so much of the personal finance industry really feels like a lot of like, finger wagging and you screwed up and you're wrong and like, get your get it together, you know? And that just feels awful.

Yeah.

Like, why do you. Nobody wants to do that unless you're a masochist. And so it really is about making it fun. And it's kind of like a girlfriend's guide to having a great relationship with money.

That's so great. And like you said too, and I love that for most of Us, we weren't taught, like, how to deal with our money. And I know for me, like, after I graduated college, I'm like, nah, what? Now I'm supposed to know what to.

Do with my money?

Like, and then credit card debt and all of that, which I'd love for you to talk about that and just all of that.

Well, you know, like, sex again, nobody teaches us how, but we're all just supposed to be good at it. Yeah, exactly.

Like, how.

So the number one thing I heard from people when I was interviewing them again was I would say, what did you learn about money growing up? And the number one answer was, nothing. So, like, you know, it's the one topic that pretty much you can guarantee everybody's gonna have to deal with, and we don't get any education on it. Except for, you know, I took like, an accounting class in college. It's the. Like, I really didn't even understand it so totally. So when it comes to, you know, I. So I graduated from college in 2005. By 2007, I was in over $20,000 worth of credit card debt. You know, I moved to New York. I promptly went completely unconscious and just sort of had it in my head that if I ignored my debt for long enough, somebody would just come take care of it for me. And I'm not really. That was not a conscious thought. I wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna marry a rich man or something. It just. I thought, like, maybe it would just magically disappear if I did enough affirmations. So that didn't work. One of the things that, you know, if you're listening to this and you do have some credit card debt or some student loans or, you know, car payment, mortgage loans to your parents, whatever the debt category could be. And one of the first, most powerful steps I recommend taking is just telling the truth about it. Money is such a source of shame. And again, it gets swept under the carpet. It's like, oh, I don't want to look at that. That's icky. It makes me feel bad. I'm confused by it, whatever. So I'll just put it over here. But like anything that we avoid, it kind of begins to bubble up to the surface and gets all. So if you avoid things, they do come out eventually, and it's worse than if you tell them at the beginning. And so telling the truth just. You could sit down with somebody, a loved friend, somebody who's not going to judge you to go through and say, okay, well, I have these five credit cards and These are the balances on them. This is the minimum payment. This is the time each month it's due. This is the APR rate. Know those things. And then here are my student loans. And. And get it all in one place. And that might sound terrifying. I know, for me, it was terrifying. I just didn't want to know the total. It was okay if I looked at the individual balances, because they were all at different times throughout the month. I just didn't want to know the whole truth. When I did write it all down, it was the most freeing thing ever. I felt like a superhero. I felt like I could do anything because that clarity that came was such a powerful place to jump off from. You know, it's like when you're typing in something into your gps. You can't get to where you're going unless you know your current location. And that's really a powerful place to start when, you know, you want to move from being in debt to not being in debt. Starting with your current location without, you know, as much as possible, without judgment and just being like, okay, here's. Here's where I'm at. Here's where I'm. You know, where I am. And now that I know where I am, now I can, you know, move forward to where I'm going. Right.

Brilliant. I love that, the whole truth, because I know for me, there's like, little bits like, oh, a little. You know, I want to look at a little bit of it, but not the whole thing.

Right. Like, you might know the total of your student loan debt, or you might know, like, the total of your American Express. But if you really add it all up, like, when I added it all up, it was over $20,000. And I was shocked, like, who did that? You know? And then I really had to take responsibility and say, I. I did that. Yeah. And the good news about it when you did that is that you can undo it as opposed to, oh, somebody else did that to me. You don't. You're no longer in control. But if you did it, then you can fix it.

Right. So how do you do that? Like, how do you go about, you know, like, having more pleasure and enjoyment and looking it as, like, you know, oh, superhero. I'm taking this on.

Yeah. So I love to, like, name it, rename it. So bills in our household are invoices for blessings already received. So it just instantly, it's like, oh, you know, it's not the electricity bill. It's the invoice for the blessing of electricity that we've had for the previous month. Like, how awesome that we got to flip on a light switch every time you walked into a room. It's awesome. Like, it's really awesome. So you can get into a place of, of when you're paying your monthly bills or your invoices for blessings already received, or even your bills for your debt. You know, if you're paying your credit card statement and everything, you can get into that place of reliving the gratitude for what you have actually received for that thing. And it's not about like, oh, God, I was so bad five years ago when I made that stupid financial decision. Like, that song is boring. We've heard it enough. Turn it off. You know what about, oh my gosh, I have, you know, I know people who have $80,000 worth of student loans, and for some people, that's even, you know, a low number. I know people who have more. How about instead of living in regret or living in heaviness around that thing, feeling like, okay, you know what? Here are all the reasons why that was the most awesome choice ever. Because now I have my undergrad degree and now I have an mba. And here are all the blessings that I have received from those degrees, or maybe not even those degrees because, like, I know for me, I have an art history degree. I'm totally not using it. I probably never will. But I can go through and look at those four years of college and I could create an extensive list of blessings that I received from those four years that really many of them have nothing to do with my career or academics, but like, the people and the places and the experiences and whatever. So. And for some people, you know, I was talking to somebody the other day who is in a lot of debt because she chose. She was not earning very much money for a long time. But that choice, she realized that choice allowed her to have the freedom in her life to go really deep into some personal growth stuff that she wouldn't have done otherwise if she had been working, you know, the normal New York 50, 60 hour, 70 hour week. So even though it wasn't so much that she could say like, oh, I had these amazing four years at college, or oh, I did this. It was, oh, you know what I did go into debt. And what it bought me was time and space to do that other work I was doing. So that's kind of a. When you reframe your debt that way, it does immediately lighten the load. And then it's like, okay, I can play here. Like, I don't need to avoid this. These are blessings I received, and I can totally live in this world of enjoying those things and then setting about a project, or you can call it anything you want. My friend Jeff Rose wrote a great book called Soldier of Finance, which is like the polar opposite to my book. It actually comes out today, and it also has a little pig on the front. It's so cute. But his is like a camo pig, and mine is like a little pig with a heart.

But I love.

There's one thing in his book that he says name, like, whatever your project is. It could be like Operation get out of Debt, or you could call it, like, Operation Discover Freedom. You know, like, name it something fun that's gonna get you excited about it. He was in the army, so his is always like, you know, it's a little more hardcore, but I would, you know, have a little more fairy dust and glitter on mine. You do whatever works for you and then set up a plan so that you are. When you want to increase. When you want to pay off debt, for example, you need to first of all, stop incurring debt and then ideally lower your living expenses and increase your income so that you can get that paid off. So there are some fun ways to lower your living expenses, which are, like, for a limited period of time, if you're doing Operation Discover Freedom, you could do anything. You know, you could just decide, like, I'm gonna go through Kris Carr's entire crazy sexy kitchen and cook all my meals at home and make it really fun. And instead of meeting friends out, I'm gonna meet friends at home. And instead of going out for my weekly mani pedi or monthly mani pedi, I'm gonna have a girls night in, and we're gonna do our nails at home. Like, you can make it really fun and pleasurable so that decreasing spending actually even in some ways feels more abundant than the same old spending habits that are making you live in lack. Like, that's the reality of spending in a way that feels. Feels. What's that word? Fur. Usually, I really am not like, this superficial. When it feels superficially abundant, where it's like, oh, I'm gonna go buy all these clothes and put them on plastic. Ultimately, that's actually a lack behavior because you're spending more than you have. And so it's creating a situation of lack in your life.

Right.

The abundant behavior would be like, what I love to do is. Or it's not so much anymore because they don't so much have them. But, like, people don't Send catalogs as much. But, like, instead of going shopping, I used to go through all my catalogs and mark whatever I wanted and, like, have this whole hour where I would just dream about the clothes and where I would go in them and what I would be doing and whatever. And then I would recycle the catalogs and just not buy anything. And the experience of living into those fantasies was what I wanted from the shopping anyway.

Right.

You know?

Yeah, totally.

And I love it.

I love it. You know, it's really about the emotional tone that you're bringing to it, like, the mindset and, like, where is your emotional state, which is what your book's all about. But I love that, like, getting into a really empowered state around all areas of our finances.

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, and the same thing. I was interviewed quite a few times by people who asked me, what do you do if you're out to dinner with a group of people and everybody wants to split the bill, but you didn't have very much food or whatever? Like, how do you deal with situations like that? And again, just like you said, getting into that empowered place, I always recommend let people know ahead of time, like, hey, I'm doing Operation Discover Freedom. And just so you know, I'm so excited to see you guys over dinner, and I'm gonna be eating salad and drinking water and. And I'm just gonna get a separate bill. And as long as you let everybody else know upfront and invite them to your party of, like, Operation Discover Freedom, you won't have to deal also with peer pressure around spending and whatever. And if you are finding that you have that, those are probably not the best friends to be hanging around if they're, you know, if you're not feeling like you can be true to yourself.

Right. So that brings me to one part of your. You have. What is it? Untangle your financial woes and create the life you really want. So I want to talk a little bit about creating a life you really want. And how do we know what we really want? Like, what's your guides for, like, knowing, oh, this is what I want, and then declaring it and then also asking for it and be willing to receive.

Give us the deeds, right? So here's a simple exercise that you can do to figure out what you really want. And, you know, you can spend years. This is just, like, scratching the surface because that is a really common thing, especially for women is like. It's like. But I don't. I don't know what I want. How do I, you know, that's, that's a real problem because we have not been taught to continue dreaming and thinking about all the possibilities. Like that's not celebrated. So on a cultural front. But so what you want to do is think of three peak experiences you've had. So the top three that come to mind are great, so meaning emotionally positive peak experiences. So they could be when you went skydiving with your fiance, they could be the day your first child was born. And one could be like this amazing walk down the beach you had. I mean it doesn't have to be like what you would think of as peak experiences, just the top three that come to mind. And then either in writing or if you have a partner you can do this with, do describe the experience in as much detail with emotional language so with adjectives as possible and really kind of like play it out like it was a movie scene. And when you've done that, they either write it down or you write it down. What you want to do is go back and read all three and look for the adjectives or emotional words that show up over and over and over again in all three or just like the flavor of those words. So if it were mine, they would all have to do with community and being around people I love. And like I just that those, those would be the key things. And you have to do a little, you know, little Sherlock Holmes to figure out what these things are. But you'll find the common themes and then you'll be able to pull out four or five common themes. So maybe it's community, recognition could be one of them. Adventure and creativity, you know, those could be four that you realize like actually those are four key values that when I look back at my peak experiences, those, they all have those four things in common, right? And then all you need to do is write those things down. And I call them in the book, I call them your touch tones to touch, touchstones to freedom. But in like Danielle laporte's book the Desire Map, she talks about them as your core desired feelings. It's a very similar concept and I highly recommend her book. And so you can do those. And then what you can do is when you're, anytime you're making a financial decision moving forward, I really recommend lining up your financial choices with your values. So you identified four or five key values. And money is again, it's a stand in for what we value just so we can exchange value for value. And so it's designed to be put towards what we value or to be used in Service to what we value. So, like, in my life, family and community are just absolutely my highest values. So when I am faced with choices around money, like, I recently made a choice. It was a $6,000 choice, so it was kind of like a big ticket item. And ultimately it moved me away from time with family time in meaningful community that I wanted. And so I was like, oh, not gonna do that thing. So it really helps to reorganize your spending, and it really helps to lower your expenses, especially if you're wanting to pay off debt or amass some savings or have some retirement. Because when we spend money on what we value, we actually need to spend less in order to get the emotional bang for our buck from the spending. So there's a financial book out there that talks about the latte factor and, like, thinking about, okay, how much are you spending each day on your latte at Starbucks or whatever? And they talk about, you know, if you didn't spend that every day, here's how much you would amass at the end of the year.

Right?

Really great. Really great to look at. The flip side of that, though, is, like, for me, I value the experience of going to get a latte so much. And I love, like, that I know the people in the coffee shop, and they have this dog named Jasper, and, like, it's a whole thing, you know, and it's so delicious, and I savor. And the amount of bang for my buck I'm getting emotionally from that experience is huge for the $4 that I'm spending versus maybe something else. Like, say I had a high car payment or something on, like, an Audi. I just. For me, I just wouldn't get much emotional bang for my buck out of driving it, because I just need a car to get me from point A to point B. Like, I really don't care. But that's my values. And other people's values are different. You know, some people would be like, screw the latte. I'll make my coffee at home. I'll save the four bucks. That'll make me feel amazing every day. So it's really about what is the emotional impact on your spending decisions? Not what's logically the right thing to do, or what did your financial advisor tell you what to do? Or what would your mom be proud of? Or, like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Really? What feels good to you is important.

I love that. That's, like, genius. Because I have the same thing, what I spend money on. Like, people say, oh, you should cut back on that. And it's like, no. And I'm the same way. Like, cars, like, things just don't get me jazzed up. And they might get somebody else jazzed up. So I love that. I always laugh because when we look at, like, our, you know, what we spend money on. Brian, my husband, always says that, like, you can see what we value, like Whole Foods. We spend a lot of money at Whole Foods, but that's like, one of our core values. So I love this idea. And it makes it easier when you feel like.

Makes it easier. And it also makes it easier to change the world, because what we put our money towards also votes for our values and where we can vote with our dollars. And so spending money at your local organic farmer or Whole Foods or whatever environmentally friendly place or, you know, doing those things is really important if we want to, over time, pull the meter of the economy towards sustainable, you know, kind of sustainable products and sustainable industries. So that's also. Yes, it's important on a personal level, but really on a macro level, you have to remember that you're voting for your values, like, culturally as well.

Yeah. And that's brilliant, too, because we literally, by doing what you're saying, we are changing the world. Like, we are being the change and actually, like, voting with our dollars. That's so amazing.

We are the economy. Like, the economy is not out there. You and I are the economy. You listening? You're the economy. Like, we. The economy is people, and it's made up of human beings and our emotional realities. And the economy will always go up and it will always go down. And I don't know why anyone ever is surprised that there's, like, a recession or anything going on with the economy, because if you look at history, that's just how it is. And so organizing your financial life in these ways makes you a little bit more solid in your financial grounding, so that when crazy things are going on with the economy, you can understand. Oh, I'm okay. This is, again, like, we're all creating this together. How can I behave in a way that actually moves the needle towards the direction I'd like the whole culture to be?

Yeah. And I just had an idea, too, as you were saying that with the. I totally just lost my train of thought.

It's that kind of day.

Oh, my gosh. You have a book launch. I have a baby. You know, we just have.

Congratulations.

Well, he's 11 months, but still. I'm still in the sleep deprivation. What was I going to say? It was really good. Oh, you had the Invoices for the blessings that we already received. And I just had, like, this vision as you were talking about it of, like, going out in the world and when you are spending money to get in that place, of I'm changing the world. Like, this is the world I want to see. And like, feeling really empowered because I know a lot of people feel I'm not doing anything. Like, I'm not really doing anything to change the world. So as you said that, I was like, we are changing the world just by our little choices.

I like that.

That is awesome. I'm going to practice that. Thanks, Kate.

I like it. I've never really thought about that consciously, so that's really great. I like that practice. Sweet.

So, okay, I'm curious on the saving and spending for people who are not savers and they spend all of their money. I saw you had a great blog post on that. So how do we start saving and enjoy saving and not feel like it's deprivation?

Right. So a financial advisor named Janice Goldman gave me this tip. So it's called creating a Money for Me account. So what you want to do is you can set up a free savings through like just one of those online free savings companies and name it Money for Me. Or if you're a couple, it could be Money for Us. And when you go through your day, look for ways to find or capture money, and it feels really fun. It's like a game. So you can call up your credit card company and ask them to refund the recent fee that you had. Or you can call your bank company, say there was like a fee on a checking thing or whatever, ask them to refund it. That's found money. And you would put it in your Money for Me account. When you are out shopping and you decide to not buy that pair of boots that you were about to buy, money spent because you felt like you asked yourself, would it feel better to have those boots or would it feel better to basically pay myself, you know, that $200 or whatever it is, that money goes in the Money for Me account. When you opt to see decide to just like make a decision. Like this recent $6,000 decision I made, I decided not to spend that money that could go in the Money for Me account. And another one is captured expenses. So a girlfriend of mine is a great example. She had a son who was in daycare, and then he was going into kindergarten, and daycare had cost them $800 a month, but kindergarten was free. And so instead of just letting that $800, like fall into the family finances, never to be seen again. She captured it and put that $800, which she was used to spending anyway, in the Money for Me account. And at the end of the month, you can look at how much you were able to capture of, like, it wasn't an unexpected income that you earned. So say somebody gives you a financial gift or some sort of bonus or a refund on your taxes. That would also go in the Money for Me account. And you can see, okay, like, I have this. It might be $20, it might be $2,000. Like, each month will be a little bit different. And. And you can decide to put that money in savings, to put it towards paying off debt, to put it towards, you know, a vacation or a spending thing that you want to do. But really what it does is it slows down the process. So if you do end up spending it, there's been a lot of thought and anticipation and enjoyment in that. I'll never forget the first time I say, like, this is kind of ridiculous, but I just never really got it that people saved up for stuff in my household growing up, I just did not see that behavior. It's possible that my parents did do that, but what I saw was that they wanted something and they bought it, or they just didn't buy it. It wasn't like, oh, we're going to get that. We're just going to save up for a while. So I'll never forget so hard part of how I got into all that debt was that it didn't occur to me that if I wanted something, I just would buy it later. I just was like, oh, I'll buy it now. So I'll never forget when I bought. I wanted these curtains. They were these, like, chocolate brown silk shantung curtains from Pottery Barn. I wanted them from my New York apartment, and they didn't have the cash. And for the first time, it occurred to me I could save up for those. And I did. I put little bits of money away into this little savings account, and I saved up. It was like they were 800 bucks or something. So saved up the $800, I bought them. And it was amazing how much more I got out of, like, emotionally out of owning those curtains than if I had just gone to Pottery Barn and stuck them on my credit card, which I could have easily done, But I wouldn't have valued them as much because I didn't understand what it actually took to buy them. Like, I took a couple months of putting little bits of money away, so I had to Pipe cash. So with the money for me account, it's not that you have to spend it, and if you're a spender, you might want to try saving it. But what's so great is that feeling of, like, slowing it down. And then also, I'm going to pay this money to me instead of pay this money to Nordstrom or pay this money to me instead of paying it to the nail salon down the street or whatever your thing is for spending. Those are obviously my things for spending money, whatever it might be for you. And it's a profound feeling of abundance to realize that by not spending the money, you're actually paying yourself. Yeah. Feels really spacious and really cool.

I love that, too, because it's like the wanting. There's, like, a space for you to truly want and desire those things.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, recently, actually, again, it's back to the curtains. It's, like, all about window treatment. But I want these new curtains for our home, for me and Mike's home. And they are kind of on the pricey side. And again, I could just go buy them. But what I've decided to do is experience the wanting for a few months and reward myself after a specific financial goal is hit with the curtains. Instead of the old behavior of just take out your plastic and just buy them. And I know every time I look at those curtains, I will feel so abundant and so much more gratified because of the waiting and the wanting and the allowing that desire to really marinate. Because, like, part of the reason we want anything is because it's actually just fun to want it.

Totally. Well, I love that, too, because, as always, you bring the emotional, which I know as a woman, you know, men have it, but women have it on a different level. Like, the emotional, what we're getting from it, you know, and then there's like, a fun element to it of, like, I want those. Okay, great. How do I create a game to get those? Not like, oh, I'm a loser. I can't get it. You know, because we get so wrapped up in our negative beliefs.

Or like, I know, like, Mike does not care about the curtains, you know? And so I showed them to him and I emailed them to him. And I was like, aren't these great? Whatever. And he's kind of like, I don't care. So I could have made up a story about. Oh, well, Mike's telling me because he's not excited about them. Like, he's shutting me down and saying, I can't have it. So he's limiting me. That's not the truth. He does not care. And so I'm creating this whole experience for myself.

Yeah. Oh, and you also just touched on a really great thing, I think, for us women of, like, owning our desires. Right. Like, that it is us. Because I know part of. I can get into victim sometimes, you know, And I'm like, oh, he's shutting me down. He's saying no. It's like I'm shutting myself down. Right.

Yeah. Well, so I went to a school called Mama Gina's School of Womanly Arts, and Regina Thomasauer has written some fabulous books, and I definitely recommend them. And one of the things she teaches about is the knee jerk no from men, which I have 100% experience with Mike. And I'm so glad I knew about it ahead of time, because when he does it, I'm just like, oh, that's just the knee jerk no. So it's like, sometimes, like, it'll be like, oh, let's go do this thing, or whatever. It'll be so fun. And he's just kind of like, no. And it doesn't mean. It does not really a no. It's just like, oh, I haven't played enough with that desire yet. So then I'll just, like, wait a different day to bring it up. Or, you know, enjoy the experience of, like, you're so cute that you're saying no to that, because we're gonna have so much fun when we do it. And getting to be in, like, my experience of the wanting of that and not making myself wrong for getting a no. Because growing up, I was so scared of being told no. Like, I thought if somebody told me no, that it was because I was bad. And so realizing that his no has nothing to do with me. And it might be timing, it might be whatever. And, like, if I really want it, I can go do it myself. Or he probably actually would enjoy the experience with me, and it's just a matter of, like, playing with it and enticing him into the experience of having that as well. Because women really do bring, like, that feminine, playful desire energy to the relationship. And that's why men love us. Yeah. But sometimes they get cranky just like we do.

That is awesome. I have never heard that. And Brian does the same thing. Yeah. I'm like, I just. I can't forget something or I can't remember yesterday I just said something. I'm like, we should do this. And he was like, no. And I'm like, what do you mean, no? Like, that's gonna be so funny. You didn't even, like, give it a thought. Like, there wasn't even, like, maybe he's like, no, I'm fine. I don't need to do it.

And then you can do fun things like the flyer for it around or like, you know, send the pin on Pinterest to him and just be like, just like. The key here, and this comes to your money, too, is playfulness. My grandfather used to have a saying that anything worth taking seriously is worth making fun of. And it really, like, in the case of money, it really is like, we just made money up. It doesn't actually exist. So the more fun we have with it and the more energized we are around it, the more we can kind of activate that energy of attraction. And because money and people and anything else, opportunities are attracted to people who are having a good time, who feel good about themselves and who are happy. That's it. And so that's your job, is to just feel good and everything will kind of work itself out from there.

Right. So I'm curious on. You have something I read somewhere on your blog or your website about trusting our bodies? Like, how do our bodies play into money and just overall fun and joy in our lives?

Yeah. Well, it's a really important. They're really an important barometer for truth, especially when we can't think straight, which is most of the time. So it's really helpful just for spending decisions like identifying financial energy leaks, a great exercise is you can get out your most recent credit card statement and go through and look at each item that you spent money on and check in for people. It'll either be kind of like in your chest or it'll be lower in your gut. Or maybe your solar plexus. Like different people kind of have. You'll kind of know where you get that gut feeling. It doesn't actually have to be in your gut. Some people, it's different places because. But go through and look at each item and recall the moment when you spent the money. And if you can't recall, just think about the thing that you bought. And it could be health insurance, could be like flowers for your mom, could be a dinner, whatever it is. And feel into. Does my body right now thinking about that expenditure, does it feel expansive or does it feel contracted? And expansive is like when your baby laughs and smiles at you, like that's expansive. Or when you see a puppy. You know, I follow like dogs of Instagram on Instagram, because every time I see those ridiculous dogs, I Feel so my heart just pops open. I feel so expansive. And so I can remember what that feels like. And then contracted is like doubt, it's worry, it's regret, it's like a darker kind of pinched feeling. And when you go through, then you can identify with each expenditure. Who was I with? What was the money for? What was the situation here? Like, what was the deal? And you can identify for the ones that you feel contracted around. There may be a person you were always spending that money having to do with. There may be a certain emotional tenor to the moment that you had. It might be that it was all in the clothing category or whatever it was, but there will be some commonalities and you can find out, okay, those things that make me feel contracted, those things that they have to do with either the people, places or things associated with them are potential financial energy leaks. And you can, next time you're spending money having to do with one of those things, you can check yourself and just say like, okay, what's happening here? I know sometimes for me, I spend a lot of money because I want to make sure people know I appreciate them. So if a friend has let me come stay or done something for me, sometimes I will go over the top to spend money to make sure that they know I'm grateful, you know, and it's really an interesting thing. So if I went back through my credit card statement on one of those, I might feel a little contracted and like, ooh, did I really have to spend like $200 on a hostess gift? Like, okay, looking at those things and then you can pay attention. So next time I might be like, you know, a well worded card and some flowers would probably do the trick. So you can look at those things. So that's one of the ways you can feel into your body. And then just moving forward when you're out buying things, whether it's shopping, grocery shopping, whatever, feel into as you're about to buy that thing. Do I feel expansive right now or do I feel contracted? And it's a very easy way to make a spending decision because if you feel expansive, your body's saying like, yeah, do it. If you're feeling contracted, not so much. And it doesn't even really matter why. You don't even have to have that conversation.

You don't have to analyze the whys.

No.

What if we're in the store and it's like my body's saying yes, and it's like 20,000 and we don't have 20,000, Ben.

I mean, then that really comes to the logical. And I will. Okay, here's my. I'll have to test this theory. My theory on that is your body would probably not feel expansive around that unless you just wanted it so bad and you would figure out a way to get it because it was so critical to your well being. And there are things like that. Like sometimes you want to fly across the country and go see somebody and you don't have the money in your bank account, but you want to see them so bad and you figure out how to get the money. And that could be an expansive experience. Versus like my mind thinks I want this fancy product coat, but ultimately my body is like all contracted. It's like, don't do this again. You've done this so many times. This is why we have, you know, the $15,000 on the credit card at home or whatever it is. Like your body has information, has access to information that our mind does not have access to. So that's why it's really good to listen to our body because our mind can justify anything.

Yes. And I've done that too. What you brought back, which I love, the, like, the patience and fun and being willing to say, okay, if I really want it, like, let's not put it on the plastic as you were saying. Like, let's find a fun, empowered way of making it happen.

Totally. There's always like, I listened. I did an interview with Tara Gentile, who's a fabulous woman who writes about money as well. And she was raised by a mom who just was like, she was an entrepreneur, she became a seamstress. And she just taught Tara that she was the source of money and that like, if she wanted more money, she just had to be resourceful and give somebody more value. And when she offered more, gave added value to somebody else's life, she would make more money. And so anytime she wanted more money, she just had to get smart about who can I offer value to, how can I add value and how can I make that money? And we are the source of that and we can make more. Anytime you can't make more time, but you can always make more money.

Right. So what's your thought on the feelings that you know, I have? And I know a lot of people have this as sometimes you look around and you're like, my life is so amazing. And I, you know, I am pretty abundant. I live in the modern world and all of these things. And then you look at other people who don't have like clean water. How do you deal with that? Kind of that emotional terrain.

I think that's a really, that's a juicy question. It's not something that I have completely, certainly not mastered. I do know that like tithing and giving back is a really important piece time wise and financially in my own life. It's something I certainly teach one of the fastest ways. If you are not feeling so great in your life, you know what they say is when you're feeling helpless, help someone. I believe the reason to create abundance is to be of service. Because when we are filled up emotionally, energetically, you know, we've had a good night of sleep, we've eaten our veggies, all that stuff, we can really show up to have great ideas, to innovate, to help the world, to be able to have the financial resources, the time, the energy, the creativity to change some of those problems. And so I do believe like there is kind of this pervasive idea that oh, if somebody else doesn't have something, then I shouldn't either. And like two poor people does not create abundance to depressed people, does not create happiness to sick people, does not create wellness. And so if you are feeling a contrast between your well being and somebody else's well being, think about how you can help them move up, not how you can move down. Because you moving down does not help them move up. It just, there's a saying when one light bulb turns off, it just makes the whole world a little bit darker. So our job is just to continue to be in the light and be of service and help more people be in the light and be of service through making sure we're taken care of and then using the extra that we have, which should be a lot of extra to get back.

Very cool. And then like as you were just saying that too, like the feeling of which my husband's really great at is the gratitude for like how much we do have, you know, and it's like, why are we in this position? You know, like we are super grateful. Like why am I in this position? You're in this position. Like, oh my God, life is amazing. Like really having that. That helps me coming back to that often of like, huh, okay, gratitude.

Because so Brene Brown, who's a shame researcher, she's amazing, she wrote a book called Daring, greatly talks about in her book that when she was working with people with populations who had had a really difficult time, like people who had lost their children and you know, really awful things would say in her research, she found out they would say many times people who like have happy Healthy kids feel like they shouldn't talk about the enjoyment of being a parent around me because I've lost my child. And in fact, it's the opposite. That person who had lost their child time and time again in her research had found. Had said, you not enjoying what you have takes away from me. Like, there's an element to which we are all actually so connected and are all one that, like, if I feel not okay celebrating what I have and not being grateful for what I have, it is actually literally feels like to people who don't have even. It feels like they then even have less. If I can't even appreciate what I have, then it's so wasteful, right?

Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I totally got tears. Just, like, feeling that, you know, like, I mean, that's what this conference is about, too. Like, that pleasure of enjoying and really having that gratitude. That's amazing.

And not enjoying, like, oh, I'm gonna be over here and enjoy and hoard it. It's like enjoying to spread it, enjoying to pass it around. Because I know that my joy is infectious. Your joy is infectious. That's how we make change. We don't make change by sitting around thinking, like, oh, it's so awful. Oh, it's so awful. Oh, it's so awful. Because what we put our attention on grows, and so we want to put our attention on what's working and then create more of what's working.

Yes. Amen. So I want to dive into freedom with you. You know, you were financial free at 28, and you're very. You know, you went on the Freedom tour. So tell us what. What is freedom to you and how do we have more freedom?

Yeah. So freedom to me is. So there's. There's kind of like a couple of different layers. There's the real practical financial layer, which is when you have enough passive or recurring income or residual income to cover your living expenses, you're financially free. And those can come from investments, businesses selling info, products, affiliate stuff, network marketing. There's, like, a lot of different ways you can do it, but having that enough to cover your living expenses. And for that, you can either decide to lower your living expenses or increase your residual income, or both, you know, and then you can get there faster. And then freedom on another level, I mean, I think that there's a lot, like, there's. There's emotional freedom, there's spiritual freedom. And a lot of that, I think, comes from owning who we are, from telling the truth, from really not apologizing for our own experience or our own reality or our own thoughts. I mean there's so many different layers there and that could be like a whole other conversation. But, but I think that creating financial freedom and financial, well, being a solid financial footing allows us to then explore those other levels of freedom. You know, it's like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You got to do the food and shelter thing first and then you can self actualize, you know, if you are not, if you're worried about how you're going to pay the rent and like feed your kids, there's not a whole lot of space in there for thinking about freedom and how can you help and be of service and all of those things. And so, so getting your own needs met first and then you can kind of go on up the spiral.

Right? So what about like freedom? So somebody's saying, do you have. I have two questions on this. One is somebody's like, you know, I would really love to be financially free. I'd love to start my own business. What are your thoughts on that? Like what would you recommend somebody who's watching this? Like, yes, I would like to explore that.

I would really recommend reading Robert Kiyosaki's book Rich Dad, Poor Dad. Well, first I guess I should really start recommending my own book. So you should read my book and then you should read Robert Kiyosaki's Rich dad, Poor Dad. In my book I do give, I can't remember how many, but I think like seven avenues for creating financial freedom in the appendix and there's pros and cons to each and kind of initial action steps to get started. And then really look at like running a business is a lot of work and it is takes quite a bit of sweat equity, you know, just energy and so you want to make sure you're doing something that you love. And I do think that really to create ultimate freedom, you're not going to create ultimate freedom financially without owning a business or being an investor in some way or ideally some combination of the two. So definitely start a business. One of the easiest ones to start is network marketing because there's not a big overhead or something in the Internet world. Again, because there's not a big overhead, it doesn't require a ton of startup capital. So those are great places to start.

Very cool. So then my other question is because I think a lot of in the personal growth there is like this idea that you do need to be have your own business and things like that. And it does take work. So what would you say to the Person who's like, you know, if I'm honest, I have a great job and I love what I do. And I feel, you know, what would you recommend for them to have more financial freedom? You know what I'm saying?

Totally. Well, I think there are absolutely ways to take the income that you're earning from your job and then work on some side investments. So whether it's paper assets, you know, stocks and bonds, whether it's real estate assets, where you have a rental property, where somebody lives in there and pays you, you have cash flow every month, you can absolutely do that while loving your job. You know, I'm not telling everybody they need to quit their job. And if you have a job that you love, I mean, that's so awesome, you know, but you also need to know that you never have control over what your employer is going to do or what your boss, you know, all those things. And so you do want to just have multiple streams of income so that you are not 100% dependent upon the whims of one individual, no matter how smart and wonderful and loving they may be. You just never know.

Yeah, right. Very cool. So another question for you on there's like so many people are feeling overwhelmed, they're feeling stressed and they're feeling tired. Like, do you have any tips on how to kind of organize your life and reorganize your life to really have you feel joy and fulfilled and get things done? But, you know, yeah.

Well, I really recommend going back to that peak X peak experiences exercise and identifying those four or five things that are really important to you and make sure you're doing at least one or two of them a day. Like something that has to do with one of those things. And the good news is incorporating those things into your life does not have to require an overhaul. Literally, it may not even require any changes. I mean, one of my favorite things, Danielle Laporte, who talks about the core desired feelings, talks about one of her things, her core desired feelings was feeling divinely feminine. And so some days she just wears a skirt to work, you know, to write, because that, that's what she can do that day, you know. And I recently looked at my. I was feeling very overwhelmed last week, and I looked at my whole life and wrote it all out on a whiteboard and was like, okay, I am doing a lot of things right now, and I'm doing too many things right now. And moving forward, I'm not interested in this being my reality for very much longer. So this has a timeline, and I am now going to make choices based on my priorities. So I reorganize my priorities. And now every single email that comes in, every single phone call, every single time somebody asks me about something, I'm like, okay, my priority is space. Does this give me more space? No. So it's enough. And so also, a great way to deal with overwhelm is to start saying no to more things. And I've become a little bit ruthless with it. And I feel like, you know, it's like it still feels bad and good at the same time. So that's what I recommend. Say no more often.

Yeah, we all need to hear that.

It's no to other things. So you can say yes to you. Because often when you say yes to something else, you have to say no to yourself. And that ultimately does not make you good for anybody.

Yeah. And then that's where we end up feeling stressed, tired, and overwhelmed because we said yes so many times we wanted to say no.

Exactly. And we haven't said yes to ourselves. And martyrdom is over. Like, nobody is giving badges out, like, on the other side for how much you suffered and how much you did for other people at your own expense.

Yeah. That's brilliant. I love it. Okay, well, we'll wrap up. Even though we could explore this conversation for a long time, all these different aspects. But can you tell us where we find more about you? Buy your book. All of that goodness.

Yes. So you can go to katenorthrup.com and find out everything there. Katenorthrup.com when you get the book, you get access to a two hour live online event I'm doing called A course in Having Enough with Marianne Williamson and Barbara Stani and Amanda Steinberg. So we're gonna have a lot of fun. And that's katenorthrup.com and I'm all over Facebook and stuff, so you can find me there too.

Fantastic. And I can't wait to dive into your book. And I did sign up for your course as well. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. Thanks for writing this book and thanks for being here. You are. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mama Goddess. Sending you lots of love and blessings. If you'd like to connect more, go to mamagoddess.com until next time, keep rocking it and have an awesome.