Orgasmic Birth & Motherhood with Debra Pascali Bonaro

Welcome to Mama Goddess. I'm your host, Alexandra J. Johnson. This podcast is all about rocking your goddess life, creating vibrant health and celebrating motherhood and family life. It's about living an authentically awesome life. Let's have. Today we have an orgasmic guest, Deborah Pascali Bonaro, and she is fantastic. She's a childbirth educator and she's been a doula for 25 years and also has helped train doulas around the world in 25 countries. She is the mother of six children and she also is the director of Orgasmic Birth, the film and co author of the book Orgasmic Birth. And I, I love Deborah and I love her work. I watched Orgasmic Birth and read Orgasmic Birth when I was pregnant, and I give a deep bow to her because her wisdom definitely empowered me to have I had an orgasm during my birth, but or during my labor and really just empowered me as a woman to really step into birth in a beautiful way. And we had an amazing home birth. And I'm super, super grateful and excited to welcome Deborah.

Thank you so much, Alexandra. It's just such a pleasure being here with you and with all those that are joining us from around the world.

Yes. And you are the queen of pleasure for pregnancy and birth. So let's start off with that. Like, how do we have more of a pleasurable pregnancy?

And I would even say let's start even before that, because I think if you can, even before you get pregnant, we birth the way we live. So it's about starting to find pleasure in our life and really stepping into our bodies, ourselves as women, and confronting all our beliefs. What have we been told both about our bodies, about pleasure and about birth, so that we can kind of get rid of all those bad stories and we can dispel all those fears and we can begin to integrate what it means to us as we move through pregnancy.

I love that. So what stops us in our everyday life from actually experiencing that pleasure that you're talking about? And as we're preparing to have a family, what are some things that we could do to start feeling more of that pleasure pulse in through our body?

And that's a great question because it is different for all of us. But I think it's really searching. Like, what is it? I have to say, a few minutes before the call, I went and had a piece of dark chocolate because for me, that's orgasmic. It's my little treat in the middle of the afternoon. And earlier this morning I walked a labyrinth that I have, and I was dancing a Little while ago, too. Just putting on a song and moving. So throughout the day, I tend to take just short breaks. What are the little things we can do in our everyday life that can break up our routines that can take us a step away? If you're by the computer for too long or, you know, whatever it is you're focused on and how can you say, okay, how do I just really go into this moment? And it can be two minutes, it doesn't have to be a whole day. Because I know in the early days that's what held me back. When someone said, find pleasure every day. I thought, well, I'm working and I have children and where do you break this up? But it's really little bites, literally that can give you that ecstatic, blissful feeling. And then you can bring that in to whatever else, parenting, writing work that you're doing.

I love that. And I think it's really inspiring that it's little bites, as you said, that it doesn't have to be because I know sometimes we think pleasure and we need to have like, pleasure be orgasmic all day long and it can feel overwhelming. So I love that.

I love that.

You just shared a little bit too. Like you had a little bit of chocolate, you had dancing. So that's great. We get a little glimpse into your pleasurable life.

Definitely. And certainly I'm not saying, oh, it's wonderful when we can have that full day experience or the hour experience or broaden it out. But I don't want people to get limited that if your time restrictions or you just haven't had a life full of pleasure, that you have to think of it in big terms.

Yeah.

To begin, I think it's the small things that build us into this bigger picture and then we can find the time for pleasure on a bigger scale.

Nice. So have you always kind of. Has this been your way of being pleasurable? I mean, like, to always be going for pleasure? Is that kind of how who you are?

Yes, I have to say that really is. And that is what brought me to pleasurable birth. Because I wasn't going to be duped by the fact that birth had to be this terrible, fearful heart and painful thing. I grew up knowing great grandmother and grandmother and talking to women and then being a doula and being with women that experience incredible bliss, joy, ecstasy and orgasmic pleasure at birth. And I thought, why aren't we talking about this? This is like the best kept secret.

That's awesome. I love that. And it is the best kept secret, which is the Subtitle for your film. Right, so the.

There's no wonder this. Why have we kept it a secret? Why has birth been shrouded in this veil of fear and pain? And pain and fear.

All right, so we needed to change a little of the environment so that we could see Deborah's beautiful face clearly. And I'd love to hear more about this. As you were saying, the pleasurable birth, like, for so many of us, that satisfied sounds so foreign, especially in our culture. So what is an orgasmic birth? How does pleasure and birth go together?

And they go together so beautifully, but we have to work at it. We have to flip it around and have a new paradigm. But they go together because birth is a part of our sexuality. It's part of our sexual life. And I think that we have to look at that. I mean, conception is just part of the continuum to birth. I often kind of say, if I'm in front of a big audience and there are men there, too, if we told men that something was going to happen in their genital area for potentially two to 24 hours and it had nothing to do with sex, I think they'd laugh. And they do. And yet we've convinced generations of women to disconnect from the same elements that are sacred in our sexuality, the same elements that allow us to find pleasure in everyday life need to be created to find it in birth. So it's no wonder women don't find it in birth today, because I don't think many women, I don't even know any, that could have a pleasurable experience in a hospital on a good day, forget when you're in labor. So some of the basics are we need privacy, we need respect. We need to have the people there that we feel safe with, that we know we can just let go of ourselves completely and they will honor, respect and love us, need to have the same kind of ambiance. I always call it birth ambiance, but that's our ambiance of sexuality. Do you want lighting and music and sound and touch or not? Or, you know, what would you create if you were creating a really sacred, sensual evening tonight? We need to call that into birth. So that's just the tip of it. But I hope it's giving you and others that flavor of we have to think about this in not a new way, new way for birth, but really in a way that we think about our sensuality in general. And what do we do to fully embrace that and bring that with us into birth?

And like, what you're Talking about, too. It's like the. We need to really, as women, get empowered and embodied in our body.

Right.

Because we're so disconnected about, you know, especially down there.

Yes, yes. And we've done a real disservice because why. Why is there shame in this part? I mean, really, our vaginas, our uteruses bring life into the world. And I was just reading a great quote from Dr. Guy, and she was saying that, you know, every one of us was born within a uterus. Like, why can't we talk about the uterus? We all came from a uterus. If you're on this planet, you grew in a uterus. You know, what a luscious, gorgeous organ. And we really have to start talking about women's bodies and exploring it. You know, in many more traditional cultures, there's much more celebration around women and their bodies, and we need to look at why that was suppressed in kind of a Western view. But it's time for women to really revel in it. And birth is an opportunity to waken that up. So if you're listening and kind of going, you know, it hasn't been me, but birth is such an opportunity to feel the power of your body. Those sensations that we've typically called contractions, which I hate that word because just the word makes you think of tense and pain and fear. And we know in mind body medicine that what you focus on, you attract, you create. So if we think of words that are opening, that are sensations, that are waves, and think of the birth in a new way and realize that what you're feeling is your power. Yeah, I love that. Ida Mae Gaskin calls it a surge, because I think it's your personal power surge. And if thinking of labor more as your own power rather than. I remember with my first labor, I had moments until I could flip my mind around where I kind of thought that I was sick or there was, like, an alien that took over my body. And in those moments, I was resisting and I was fighting, and then I experienced pain. But when all of a sudden I went, what am I thinking? This is my body. This is my bab. This is my energy. And I embraced it, and I went with it, and I surrendered with it. Wow. The whole experience transformed in a minute. And that was really the first time where I started to realize, wow, how we think about birth is so powerful.

I mean, that was amazingly said and beautiful. I just love that. And I know for me, for my birth. In our interview, I interviewed Deborah for optimal parenting, and she was talking about this contraction. So I created a whole, whole affirmation track. You know, it's like expansion and power and surges and like, it's literally my power and it's the baby and it's squeezing the baby out. And like, all of these things are, like, affirming that because definitely when you get into it, it is intense. And I love that you said, like, the shifting of my mindset. I could, you know, you could shift it or not shift it. So can you talk a little bit about how we can shift it? Like in the throes of labor, when we notice ourselves like, oh, this is intense, or maybe we're experiencing pain, like, what are ways that we can kind of shift that energy?

Well, some is what we just talked about. And it's so great to hear the vocabulary you created. What great words, you know, so it's to have that kind of toolkit or what are the words that you would want to have that would help you with that, but also to shift it. Sometimes, to be honest, we need comfort measures. We need. Why we need a partner that we feel safe and comfortable to touch and kiss us. We need the reminder that this is our baby. And like you said, I love thinking of hugging the baby into the world as we're kind of each sensation, imagine what the baby feels like. What a novel idea to imagine that they are experiencing this and how do I want them to feel it? And then we can go a little further and say there are even more ways, if women are willing, that the same things that get us kind of turned on in a sensuous way and help us release the hormone oxytocin are going to help us go deeper and release more oxytocin, which not only makes the labor go stronger and easier, but it actually is a great pain reliever. So the things that would bring you to orgasm are the things that will actually make labor more comfortable. Because we're learning pain and pleasure travel on the same pathway. So when we can take our mind and put our mind into pleasure, and then if need be, add the physical sensations that take us to pleasure. Wow. Can we transform this?

Yeah. I love that. Inspired by you for our birth too. What you're saying is we definitely kissing. That was like, real, like, really getting, like, full out, making on. And in our interview, we talked about using vibrators. So we use vibrator. I mean, we were like, all about it. Candles. And it's amazing how much, you know, that can really shift the energy.

Oh, totally. And I'm so glad you brought up the vibrator. Because that is my thing that I keep talking about. And whether you like a vibrator or whether you just want to stimulate yourself. But why haven't we. We're so comfortable with medications and epidurals and cesareans, but we're missing one of the biggest gifts we have, and that is to bring pleasure to our own bodies that take us from pain to pleasure. And whether it brings an orgasm or not, that's not the point in labor. If you're blessed to have an orgasm, you're blessed. But I don't want anyone looking at that as a goal. My real talking about it is that it can be a tool to help you to experience labor in an easier, safer, more pleasurable way.

Yeah, definitely. And I have a little funny thing on that with the vibrator. Early on in my labor, we were doing it, and it was. It was helping, you know, I was having orgasms, and it was, like, all fun. And then as we got towards the end, I had back labor, and we tried it, and I was like, just put it on my back. That feels orgasmic on my back.

I love it. Fantastic. And see, what a great tool to have to use in many ways. And I'll even add, for those people that are having a hospital birth and are thinking, oh, my goodness, I could never do this. If you just take out a vibrator, turn it on, it clears the room. So one of the big things is to even just have privacy. And in that sense, I've had women tell me I didn't use it, but I left it on the bed stand, and everybody kept clearing the room. And that was exactly what I needed. So what a great addition to any birth bag.

That is awesome. I love that, too, that you're bringing that into the hospital, because, you know, not everyone chooses or wants to or can with insurance to have a home birth. So I love that, you know, different ways that we can create that pleasure in, you know, because I definitely had more opinions about it before I had labor, but before I had a baby. But I realized, like, once you get into that zone that you're talking about, you can have bliss and pleasure anywhere on the planet, right?

Yes, totally. And that's the thing. But, I mean, you do need that privacy and the people that you feel safe with. So that's the hard thing for many people in a hospital. And that's why setting the vibrator out and just creating safety and privacy, if it works for that on its own, it's great. But yeah, I mean, we can find pleasure in many ways. And I hope that. And we are. I mean, even our film in our book, Orgasmic Birth, is creating this revolution around the globe where more women like yourselves are really saying, hey, let me explore this. Let me see what elements work for me, feel right for me, and bring that into birth. And then when your story, which I hope you're writing it up because I can't wait to hear all of it are shared, it can empower others to start looking at new opportunities.

Absolutely. So what are some ways that we could start to in the birth? Like what are some techniques and how can we use our body and sound and things like that? How can we access those elements during birth?

Really important. And again, I would encourage people to read about it, go to classes, gather information during pregnancy, because the more options you have, then you have this kind of toolkit to pull from in birth. But one thing is just moving and dancing. I mean, historically, belly dancing was preparation for birth. And one thing I always say is think about just a ring on your finger. And I don't know if you can see kind of my ring, but especially in pregnancy, when you're trying to get it over a fat knuckle, it's not going to come if you pull it straight. You're going to have to really wiggle it to get it off. And so think of a big baby in your body. I mean, the idea that you would stay still and lay down and try to get a baby out is like, how ridiculous is that? You need to be up. You need to use gravity. And the more you kind of move and dance like the ring, the easier it is for the baby. That's also helping with any discomfort as well, because it's giving you that different stimuli to your brain. And so movement is one lots of different positions and acupressure. And I'm one that loves rebozos. Do you use a rebozo?

I did not. Tell us about it, though. I know this is one of the things you teach, but tell us what it is.

So a rebozo is a beautiful piece of fabric. A traditional one is made in Mexico or Guatemala and they're often hand woven by women and they come in just beautiful fabric and different colors. But you could really go to any store and get a remnant, you know, just a large piece of material. Some of you in the New York area, we have what's called pashminas. Many of you may know those. So whatever are scarfs and cloths. And we use it to kind of wrap around a woman's body and jiggle and help her to dance or around the shoulders to swaddle and help her. So a doula or your partner or another person that's there can really be there to kind of use cloth in a nurturing way, but also to encourage movement.

I love that. And you don't have to actually move. They can kind of be moving you totally.

I often will sit a woman, like, on a chair, on a ball and wrap her. I call it kind of the doula hug or the doula swaddle, like you swaddle a baby. And then I use it to kind of shift and sift her. And there's just so many ways. Or sometimes we put on really fun music, and I put it around her hips and kind of jiggle those hips because we really want to dance that baby down. So there's just so many ways of encouraging dance and movement. And as you said earlier, sound. What a beautiful thing to sing in labor, to sing to your baby. And, you know, even when a mom has a challenging birth, I've had moms that really do need a cesarean. And in that moment, as we're welcoming the baby, we sing the favorite song. And I have to say, it changes the whole or of everyone being brought back to this is special. This is sacred. And it stops the chatter that might be about the football game and instead brings us to this really amazing event. And to me, that's bringing an element of pleasure back in. Even in surgery, I want to encourage women that whatever your birth choices are, you can still find ways to reclaim these elements.

Beautiful. Totally. Tears in my eyes of just, like, welcoming these new souls in such a beautiful, ceremonious way anywhere.

Anywhere in any way. So there's just so many pieces to this that I think we've lost touch with. And for me, orgasmic birth is kind of putting all those pieces together and letting each person choose the pieces to their own puzzle that bring them back both in their life. Because I think we have to live more orgasmic lives and then into birth. And how can we really claim them in whatever way.

That's so beautiful. I love it. And I love that this. I mean, that you and I kind of have, you know, you're in this field, and it seems like just natural hearing it. But it's so revolutionary as, you know, teaching this work, like, how we've all learned about. I mean, I had to, like, study this stuff. I didn't know any of this, you know, And I so appreciate you for sharing this wisdom with so many of us to really give us a different way.

Yeah. Isn't it amazing? Because if you don't know, you don't know. And there's just so many things. Childbirth was so taken away from us when we moved birth from home to hospital that I believe our grandmothers a lot of the techniques I'm teaching the rebozo and that, that's really traditional wisdom. So these are not new things. We're really reclaiming what was used throughout history of women celebrating their bodies and celebrating birth and coming together. Birth is really a social event and we've made it a medical model. So I really appreciate all sharing because we've got to bring this knowledge out and everyone that's listening. I hope you tell people, tell your friends. We have to really reawaken and bring this pleasure so that every day women can enjoy their bodies.

Totally. I love that. Enjoy and awaken our bodies.

Yes.

Beautiful. So how do we. I'm curious on when you're in the throes of labor and birth, you know, like having your expectations and your desires and then when you're in it to just let it go. Because I know for me there was. I had this idea of how it was going to go and I thought I was going to have a shorter labor and I had a long one and it was very low key, but long and steady. And I didn't think I was going to be. I was going to make a lot of noises, but I turned into like a chanting like, oh, goddess, I love it. And I was like, oh my gosh, where is this coming from? So how do we like just sink into it and surrender and let that inner kind of primal goddess go first?

And even you just telling that. How helpful is that? Because I think women need to hear from other women that there is. And that sound. And I have to say, I mean, I'm at hundreds of births and I hear women make these sounds and you can't replicate them when you're not in labor because they are so deep and so primal. But it's giving women permission to say, wow, welcome that. Right. Allow yourself to go to that intuitive place. The body that grew the baby can birth the baby. And you're going to surprise yourself with what you're going to discover is going to come out in so many ways in this process. So I think part of it is just allowing ourselves because we live usually in such a container that we're trying to like, this is it. Yeah. Don't you wish you could? You know, I want the button of the Short labor. Yeah, I think we'd all push that button too. But, you know, sometimes labor asks of us different things than we were anticipating. And so in preparing for labor, it really is preparing for the widest range and allowing ourselves to not have any kind of set boundaries on where that will take us, but to enjoy the ride and know that we're going to discover things about ourselves. Like, I can just see in you. You look different, you can feel your radiance. And not that it wasn't there before, but when you really allow yourself to dig as deep as birth takes you, you discover parts of yourself that just never came out before that you didn't know were there.

Right, Totally. And I love that you brought that up, but I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about that of like the power of birth, you know, and there's so many different ways that you can go. And, you know, a lot of people are choosing to take drugs and not experience it, you know, and to kind of be cut off from the whole experience. And it can be intense. I'm the first one to say, like, wow, it was intense and magical and transformative. But there is, like, there is potential for transformation. So can you share a little bit of, of how it can help transform a woman and really like how the birthing process is birthing a mother. I feel like to go through that birthing process, it was part of my rite of passage. So can you talk a little bit about the beautiful ceremony of that?

Yes. And I love that you called it a rite of passage, because I feel that and rites of passages often are challenging. So we need to honor that. No one saying this will be without its challenge. And there are some women that they are blessed and they just, you know, it is that two hour labor and it's just blissful. But for the majority of people, it's really a process. And it can be work and it can be hard and challenging, but at the same time, when we allow ourselves to flow with it. You know, I was just at the beach two days ago and I was in the water and I always use the analogy, but I was in the ocean and just really feeling it, that they were big waves and when I would ride with them, it was so empowering to feel the power. But I was one with them. Like the power was with me and it brought me to the shore. But when I was like, this one wasn't right and I was trying for a minute to hold my ground and I thought I could somehow manage to be what I Thought I wanted to be. Boy, did those waves tumble me. And show me something else, you know? And that's like, for me, the analogy of birth. It's like when we try to have our own idea of it, it tumbles us. But when we come to the place of that acceptance and there's a huge lesson, and I think that's the transformation that comes out, is we learn how to trust our inner wisdom. We learn how to tap into this amazing power within us, and that makes us these incredible mothers and parents. It allows us to tap into our babies and to face the challenges that sometimes breastfeeding has. Or postpartum. I often teach doulas postpartum. And I say, you know, postpartum in one hour can be your highest highs and your lowest low in the same hour. And that's how do we ride those waves? But I do want to just add that for the many women today that are making choices for medication and that I want to honor them because I think we've shrouded birth and our bodies in so much fear and in so much pain that for a lot of people, that feels safer and easier than really diving into what we're talking about. And for any of you that are listening, that are out there and feeling that, I just want to honor where you are, but I want to invite you to kind of really look at where that fear is coming from. Because I work with hundreds of women that start in that place, and when they can really look at the fear in the eye, address it, release it, and find new ways of approaching it, they can tap into this too. So I think, you know, our challenge is on a broader scale, is for everyone to find wherever you fit on the spectrum, to find how birth can open up for you this transformative power. Because I know it's there for everyone.

Yeah, I love that. And it's just the power, as you said, you know, because I think for so many of us women, we all have our stories of shame and embarrassment and fear and hate and whatever. Whatever's going on. And as you beautifully said, just really connecting to that, like, birth is an avenue for more self love and appreciation. I mean, the whole thing is miraculous. You know, our midwife, Mary Jackson, who's amazing. Yeah, she's. Mary is like angel. She is an angel.

Totally.

Yes. But after, after the, you know, after we gave birth or whatever and the checkup, she was like, have you ever seen your cervix? And I'm like, no. You know, and as you know, it's like this big it's like a baby came out of that. Like, that is.

I mean, isn't that amazing?

Like, we need to trust our bodies as women, and we are capable of so much more. Right? I mean, if we can deliver a.

Baby out of that. And every woman. I'm so glad you said that. Should see her cervix. Should feel her cervix. Know your body.

I had no idea. I mean, I gave birth and I didn't even. She's like, have you seen your cervix? I'm like, no. And like you said, I'm not alone. No, haven't seen it.

I mean, even in labor, like, other people are putting their hands in there. Women, check yourself. Like, feel inside. Do you know how cool it is to feel your body opening, to reach inside and feel your baby's head? Like, somehow we're not even touching our own bodies. Like, that's a problem. We have to really know our bodies. And I'm so glad she did that. She is just a treasure. So I'm glad that you're encouraging others. Know your cervix.

Totally. But I love that you just brought up. Because I didn't. I mean, I hadn't seen it, and I wasn't really. I mean, I was very engaged my birth, but I didn't put my fingers in there. Like, I didn't do that. So I'm like, the next one, I'm gonna even take a more empowered. Like, you know, I just want. There's so many layers of opening up to, like, what's possible, right?

Yes. And I have a great story for you. I was at a birth years ago, and I've been at this woman's other birth since then. But at her first birth, her midwife didn't do any vaginal exams. And the woman reached a point and was kind of like, I think I have to push. Do you want to check me? And the midwife said, no, but if you want, check yourself. And the woman just, like, thought about it for a second and, like, was like, wow, what a novel idea. Like, check myself. And she put her hands in, and I have this beautiful image that's a picture in my mind I will never forget. We had been all night laboring, and the sun was just coming up in the window, kind of like right behind her head. And this light was shining in, and she just was aglow, feeling her baby's head. And she said, the baby's right there, you know, and it just, like, wow to feel it yourself. And then her husband, who was right behind her said, looked right at the midwife and said, can I feel it too? And the midwife just laughed and she said, don't ask me, ask her, you know, and she agreed. And this dad just like felt his baby there. And the two of them, that self discovery of there's their baby, moments before demonstration merged into the world is an image I'll never forget. And I always feel, why are we not encouraging people to claim this? It feels so different than someone else putting their fingers in your body and telling you where your baby is.

Totally, absolutely. And then the process after. Right. I mean, of like that connection with. I mean we have it on film and just videos and stuff. And like watching that, it's like, oh my gosh. For babies to be taken from the mothers, you know, and it's like, oh my. I couldn't even, I mean, I can't even imagine. And again, you know, every woman has to go through her own choices. But there's such a beautiful like, as you said, I mean, you see it all the time. I'd be crying all the time.

Yes. And just. You're filled with the highest levels of oxytocin, right? The love hormone. This is all about love. This is all about opening. This is about expansion. And those first moments, I mean, that's just ecstasy. That's orgasmic. Right. I mean, even science is supporting. You should never separate a mother baby. I don't even say mother and baby anymore. Mother, baby, they're one word. They should be together always. And so they've been one unit to grow. And now in the days postpartum, they should be one unit as well.

That is beautiful. I love that. I love that mother baby. Yeah.

And it's true. Don't separate them on paper ever again. You want to really start everybody seeing that they should be together. And the time will come. Certainly there's moments, but certainly not in that first hour or two. There's still one.

Yeah. I mean, I feel it though. You're just like so wired. I think when you have what you're talking about, you know, that connection, you, you get so deeply connected and bonded that there was like months where I was just, I mean, it was like I was him, he was me. Like, I mean, I couldn't go anywhere. I had to be with him. Like there was like a biological. I need to be with him.

Isn't that wonderful? I mean, nature knows what it's doing, you know, I mean, think about other animals. If you take a baby animal away from its mother for even 20 minutes, a lot of mothers will reject them and won't even care for them because that bond is so sad, sensitive, and we're lucky as humans. We have big brains and no one should ever feel guilty if they need to be separated. We can always overcome it. But why would we do that when we don't have to? Why not allow ourselves to be in this ecstasy?

Beautiful. So do you have any other recommendations for like after the birth, to have more pleasurable experience after the birth, like postpartum, the days following, months following, like, like, what do we do to have more ecstasy during that time?

Well, one, I would say make sure you have good support and really know what that is and really do that kind of emotional support list. You know, I want you to do the list of who's doing the laundry and the cleaning and the cooking, because that should all be done too. But who's really there for you unconditionally, to love you, to listen to you, to accept you and not to offer their opinion, to allow you to awaken your wisdom as a mother, as a new parent in the way that you want to go. So, you know, for some people that can be your own mother, a mother in law, a sister, but for many people, those are not the relationships that are the most accepting or welcoming or feel as safe and loving. So certainly doulas or other community health workers. I think that when we look historically, women always have really good support postpartum. And in this day and age, we've kind of made women feel like they should do it all. And, you know, you and your partner are gonna like trudge through this time. And it really was never meant to be like that. Postpartum is a time for community. So really do that inventory, make sure it doesn't have to be one person. It can be 10, they can shift in and out or it could be one. But you need the people there for you so that you can be vulnerable and have that cry and say, this is overwhelming and hard and I'm tired. And then you can say, oh my God, and I just love them so much and they can be there for those shifts and just nurture you through them all.

Fantastic and beautiful. Yeah, I support. That is. I mean, I don't know if you ever. Do you think you ever really know how much support you need until you actually do it?

I don't think so, but I hope that you can always at least hear that you need support. And you might not know what you need, but line the people up. The worst thing you could do is say I'm going to wait till after and then figure it out. Because sometimes then you're so deep in it, you haven't put the people in place. So better to have too much support than not enough. I always say to people, plan for the most possible. You can always ask people to leave. It's harder to invite people in last minute.

That's great advice. Yeah. We got a doula and I love Maya. She was amazing. And I got her before I gave birth. And I was like, everybody says get support, right? So I'm like, okay, get support. Like, I think we're fine. I have an awesome husband. We can do it. Like, not a big deal. I could not have done it without Maya. Like, I mean, doulas are, as you know, goddesses and saints and angels. They're amazing. Like, get as many as you can have.

Totally. And just, I mean, I do things. I don't know if she did, but, you know, I love my rebozo. I just was with a mom and every day at the end of our time postpartum, I did what I call a rebozo, closing a traditional ceremony and just gave her like a 5 or 10 minute massage with the cloth and talked about what being a mother is like and what's a mother's body. You know, we have to kind of re get to know our bodies. Postpartum, it took us nine months to grow to birth our baby. And it takes many months to kind of reintegrate. And it's never the same body. It's a new body. It's this luscious body that's now filled with creative energy. So I think that whether it's a doula or whether in other ways we need to really celebrate that body, we need to look at body work. Traditional cultures have baths and herbs and saunas and Mexico Temescals. Traditionally, postpartum is a time of many different ways of bathing and caring for our body. Not only just to nurture it after this long labor, but I would add to celebrate it and really, again, help us get really grounded in these new, maybe bumps and curves, these new feelings. And when you think about pleasure, I've met a lot of women that had sometimes their first orgasms in labor and were just floored at getting to know their body after birth, how much more orgasmic they were in their sexuality postpartum. So it's a great time to get into the juiciness that our bodies can offer as we learn new parts of ourselves.

Yeah. Wow. And I love that you're bringing a Pleasure into our bodies afterwards. Because it seems like so much in our culture, it's like it's focused on the weight or, you know, like, it's just not like an empowered thing. Like, you know, like you said, our luscious bodies. You know, we have the. These breasts and, like, you know, I mean, it's like, amazing.

Totally amazing. And the media has done a disservice. You know, too many supermodels come out, you know, six weeks later, and they're back in their size two jeans. And that's not real, you know, and that's not what we should be going for. I mean, enjoy the bumps and the curves. We need them for breastfeeding. Those breasts are awesome. They're sustaining life. I mean, think about what your body is doing. Celebrate it.

Really.

What you'll find in it. Right. Is really luscious. I mean, the discoveries women make sometimes in postpartum bodies, if they can get their mind out of what should be from society and instead enjoy what is. And took nine months to grow. Give yourself nine months to gently settle back in and then settle on something new.

Yeah. I love. That's so great. And it's interesting just on the. Celebrating our bodies and, like, really nourishing our bodies. Right. Because. Because there's, like, this idea of going on a diet. And for me, I didn't gain that much weight during my pregnancy, but when I was postpartum, I was starving. I didn't have that many cravings during pregnancy, but I was starving, and I just had tons of fat. And I was like, I need this. I'm, like, building a baby. And I was like, all about it. Just eat it.

Good.

And I even gained a little bit of a weight, and I kind of liked it.

Good. I'm so glad you're saying that and admitting to that, because women need to hear that you are feeding this baby, and you actually need more calorie input than when you were pregnant. Right. 500 more calories a day. Wow. I mean, I wanted to breastfeed forever because I loved eating at that level. So I miss it today. I wish I could eat that many calories, you know, but. Yeah. How wonderful. But good food, right? We do have to menstruate. Absolutely. Really getting those fruits and veggies and nourish yourself. But it gives you that time to treat, too. I have to admit, I had a little extra ice cream along the way and loved it.

Yeah, definitely. I was very much into. I was eating avocados and squashes. I mean, like, tons of them. So, yes, very healthy, but lots of it. It was very good. Can you just thoughts on. As you said, sometimes you have that ceremony with the mothers, like, as you're completing your work with them. What would be your sage wisdom for mothers to step into motherhood and really feel empowered and powerful and like they're really doing something. Because I know for me, there was definitely guilt of taking care of myself. And then there was also, what am I doing? I haven't even showered today. Like, I'm not doing anything. So. So please give us some wisdom on this.

And you're doing so much right. And that is so typical. So thank you for being honest and sharing that. But yeah, what I would say to moms is, especially in the first six weeks is it's really one hour at a time. I don't even say one day at a time. It's like one hour at a time. And this is a time of really counting your gifts and your blessings to really discover what did you learn about yourself in labor? What were the strengths that you found? And no matter how challenging your birth is, you dug even deeper to safely birth your baby. So taking that kind of personal inventory of who is this woman that you're getting to know that's a mother that's just brought life into the world and really taking moment by moment so that what seems overwhelming at 10 in the morning, you'll be loving at 2 in the afternoon. If you can get that balance, to know that this is a sensitive window, this is a precious time and it will not last forever. And when you're in it, it feels like you'll never be out of it. Right. So my best thing to you is really try to just be minute to minute. Don't worry if you never get out of your pajamas. Actually, if you get dressed, I always make, when I'm a doula, I make women put their bathrobe on when anybody arrives into the house. Because if you're dressed, people come in and expect you to take care of them. And postpartum is a time for you to be fully nurtured by everyone that enters your space. And if they're not willing to come in and nurture you, you don't need them over during these six weeks. That's my advice to you. So allow the people in that are there to love and nurture and accept you at this time, but that you don't have to get dressed for that you shouldn't be cooking for, they should be cooking for you, and that you'll find you'll Emerge if you really give yourself six weeks. And I know that's hard in our culture, but really give yourself six weeks to learn your baby, to love your baby, to love your new body, to reconnect with your partner as a parent and in their role as a parent, and you will all emerge so much stronger. And I worry today of the people that miss those six weeks, to rush through them and return to life are really shortchanging themselves and their relationships because this is another rite of passage that we must face the challenges to gain the rewards.

Yes. It's like our own heroine's journey. Right. I mean, it's. I was kind of joking before I had our. Had our child, and I was like, you know, I want spiritual awakening. And, you know, I had this idea of. I wanted to tap more into my divine feminine and spirituality, and I was like, oh, my gosh. Birth and mothering is a whole spiritual awakening. And. And it's not very glamorous, but you get in there totally. Yep.

With breast milk dripping down. Right. And all kinds of spit up on your shoulder. And I remember going to the door and meeting the mailman and just going, oh, my God, what I must look like at this moment. You know, and how today I look back and I just say, how precious was that time for me? It's really defined who I am by allowing myself to get that raw and that deep and that connected to myself and my children and my partner. So power to you for. For rocking through it. You know, it's challenging today, but that's what you and I are doing, right? We're trying to open up and look at this in a new way and really revel in it, find the pleasure in it. You know, even postpartum piece of dark chocolate, that five minutes of dancing with your baby, that singing that song that just lights you on fire, taking a shower. And I remember the first bath I took postpartum. Now, that was orgasmic.

Totally. When I took a shower, I was like, and I have my five minutes. I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, showers have never felt so good. Literally, it was like, orgasmic. I'm like, oh, I feel so good.

But isn't that great? Because we learn to appreciate and value every little aspect of life, and that's what orgasmic life and birth is.

Right.

It's not running from the challenges, but finding our way through them and then bringing all that pleasure that adds on top of it. Yeah.

And it's such a great reminder, too. As mothers, we're imparting that on our Children too, Right. When we take the time to allow ourselves to be orgasmic and have pleasure and to be in our bodies. I always have that image of my child learning from me, like, wow, what am I teaching him?

Yeah, teaching him good lessons in life, right?

Yeah.

I mean, and these are all even people things. Think about stress, I mean, they're stress reducers. That's another way of looking at it. Right. When you're finding your pleasure, you're really letting go of your stress. And that's not only just fun and good, that's prolonging our life, it has huge implications for our bodies and our well being.

So tell us about breastfeeding, because that's another topic. And I know you support women like pleasure with the pleasure, with the orgasm, pleasure with breastfeeding, and then also some of the challenges with breastfeeding and things like that.

Yes. And breastfeeding is another thing that many women are going to find incredible pleasure. There has been controversy around that because some women are feeling bad that they're getting pleasure when they're feeding a baby. And I really want to just say about that that they're all different forms of love. And loving our child is a very unique love and very different from making love to a partner. And I think that when you begin to have children and think about love, we need to look at all these different forms because the love of breastfeeding your baby and finding pleasure in that for me at least, was completely different from the kind of experience I'd have with a lover, with my husband. But so sacred and so beautiful. But like birth, breastfeeding can have its challenges too. It was in every moment, felt great and went well. And I love Christina Smiley is a great lactation consultant and she says that, you know, if you have a pebble in your shoe, it's going to feel uncomfortable. But what's, it's not normal to leave the pebble in your shoe. And that's a great analogy for breastfeeding. Like if you have discomfort in breastfeeding, you've got a pebble in your shoe, shoe, something's wrong, you need to look at it. It's your body giving you a message that this isn't quite right. And that's where lactation consultants, getting back to your midwife doulas can be frontline. Certainly if it's, you know, more than a doula can handle, they refer right to the lactation consultant. But having someone that knows breastfeeding to check the positioning, to check the latch and many other things. But I encourage all women that are going to be breastfeed, go to the lechi league meetings, get to a mother's group when you're pregnant, get out with breastfeeding mothers and hear their successes and their challenges so that you have some tips to kind of get you through. And know the phone numbers to call. Boy, you need that number. Who you calling it to in the morning if something is not feeling that it's going right. And you need that support from others that have breastfed or knowledge. Breastfeeding.

Yeah. That's so powerful, right? I mean, because you go, if you're going to the doctor. I've heard so many stories of women going to the doctor and they have pain or whatever and it's like, oh, just bottle feed. Like, just give up. It can't work for you. Or whatever the story is. And I, you know, I've talked to women and they're like, oh, I'm just like devastated that I didn't know that there was. That there could be challenges, you know?

Yes. And just like birth, we need the stories of other women. But seek out the stories of women that have been successful. Seek out the stories that have found pleasurable births. Seek out the stories of women that have breastfed and found it to be just a beautiful, delicious experience. And ask them why? What did they do? How did they do it? What were their resources? What were the books that they liked? Breastfeeding on one hand is natural. And some women are blessed that with no information, they put the baby to the breast and off they go. But my experience is vast majority experience some issues. And the more prepared you are for them and have the support around you of people that can support it, the better off you are.

Yeah, yeah. And I definitely had issues for like three months. We finally figured it out, but I had sore nipples for three months.

So you persevered for three months?

For three months.

Oh, my goodness. You had a pebble in your shoe for three months.

Yes, it was. Anybody can do it. I just, you know, I like to share my story just because it's like, if you're committed to doing it, you will find a way. But yeah, I mean, I couldn't getting in the shower, I couldn't like water. I mean, I was like super sore nipples.

But you solved it.

Yeah. He actually ended up having a little tongue tie, but not a major one. Like super subtle. That literally. We went to ents. I went to lactation consultants. I went to so many. I mean, I think I said like seven people and nobody could figure it out. And Then we went to see Kitty France, which you probably know, you're like.

Right there with all these treasures.

Amazing.

Wow.

Yeah. We went to her house, and she was like, oh, yeah, da, da, da. And then just did, like, a little. A little snip. And within a week, nipples were totally fine. So, yes, persevere, Persevere.

But get support.

Get support. Yes, get support.

No, those people are. That are in your communities, so you can get that kind of support and help. Because breastfeeding shouldn't hurt. Yes.

Right. That's what I'm like, there's no other way for me. But I'm like, they really hurt. And everybody kept saying, it's gonna get better. It's gonna get better. And I'm like, something's not right. It's not right. So I. Yeah. I love that you said that about getting support and having that support system.

Totally. I think we need it all through parenting. I mean, you know, I always joke, a doula is for the first six weeks, but I think we need them for life, you know, and that's where we need women's circles and mother circles and groups. I mean, get your support system in place. It really is essential.

Yes. Yeah. We hired our doula for, like, four months, a couple days a week, and then she still comes, like, every once in a while, just because we love her. Like, come over and give Brian and I a date night and stuff. But I. I would. I told her, I'm like, I would have you move in if you didn't have kids. I would say, move in.

Wouldn't that be awesome?

Yes. I love that. Okay, so I have another question for you, and then we'll wrap up. But you have six children. You have an abundant, abundant family. So tell us, how do you have six children, and how do you do it? Like, how do you stay pleasurable and stay connected to your pleasure as a woman? Because there's so many stories, and I don't think there's so many role models for us out there of what it can be like to be in pleasure and truly enjoy parenting. For most people, it's, like, stressed and tired and, like, waa. Well.

And I have to say, I loved parenting their grown neighborhood. Three are biological children. Two came along with my second husband and my beautiful stepchildren, who I treasure. And then one is a daughter that kind of I adopted into my heart. So six of them in all different ways. But still having, especially in the teenage years, all six of them in a house all together was busy. But one thing just like I Told you today I kind of did little bits of things to go and find pleasure for myself and break my day. I always did that with the kids. We were always putting music on and singing, dancing. We'd be in the middle of craziness, and my kids would laugh. I would put on music and just start dancing and go, come on. And it was like my way of saying, okay, let's stop what's going on. It's tough few moments. Let's bring us together. Let's make us laugh. And I would love to do. My kids called it spontaneous. I remember my one son, Alex, used to say to me, if we went a while and I didn't do anything spontaneous, he would go, mom, it's been a while since you've been spontaneous. And it used to make me laugh because he identified that piece. That really did help sometimes for me, and each person has to find their own. But for me, it was just doing something like, we're all getting in the car now and going and getting ice cream in the middle of what might have been a crazy day, or we're all just going outside and we're running around the block. You know, I was just. Have always been like that of saying, if things get too serious, if we're too having a difficult moment, what can we do to shift it up?

That's fantastic. Such a great reminder. And it's so great, too, because sometimes when we get into it, it's hard to make that shift right when we're so locked into our position or our frustration or whatever. So I love that of just breaking loose, turn on some music and shake it up.

Totally. Because parenting is hard, you know, it's a lot of work, it's challenging, it's rewarding, it's awesome, it's incredible. And it's everything all together. And I really do have to say, care for yourself. I mean, I've always been one, whether it's to wake up and do my five minutes of gratitude every morning or at night to find a quiet moment when the kids were asleep to do a meditation or a prayer. I mean. I mean, you need to find the things for yourself as well that nurture yourself.

And you also said something before we started the interview that I'd love for you to share a little bit on. You did say that it gets easier with the more that you have.

Totally. I know. And you're laughing because I know when I had one, I thought, oh, my goodness, how am I going to do more? And I will share with you that I think the first six weeks of having a second where the heart is six weeks of my life. And from that point on, it got easier and easier. And adding a third was such a piece of cake. And what happens is the more children you have, first of all, love expands. And you know, some people are worried if you have more children, you have a container for love and you have to divide it more. Everybody gets a smaller slice. But when you look at love as expansive, the more that expands, it's like, whoa. When you're just in love with that many people, it's so awesome. And you get really good at time management because you don't have a choice. So what took me hours to do with one, I could whip through five in a heartbeat. You just got a rhythm. That kind of happened in life that makes it easier. So I know there's not a lot of stuff sense to it because I'm with you. I would have one and couldn't get in the shower all day. I'd be like, at night, my husband would return home and I'd be looking exactly the same as when he left and he'd go, what did you do today? And I'd almost want to cry because I did so much and I did nothing all at once because I sat on a couch and breastfed all day and loved this new being and just was filled with eye to eye, heart to heart contact. And that filled my entire day. And then all of a sudden I would have three and I'd be dressed and out at the park and cooking and doing things and thinking, why couldn't I do this with one? There's no rhyme or reason. But I'm glad I took the time with one to give myself that opportunity to just evolve.

Yeah. And do you think it's like because you like, it's on job training, you have no idea. When you're a mother, like you can't prepare for it and it's just like, oh my gosh, 24 7. I have to learn it too. Like, by the time you get to your third, you're like, alright, I got this down. I know what I'm doing.

Totally. And you know, part of that, I think, is our culture that we're not exposed always to as many children. You know, we don't grow up in communities where, you know, just all the families share common meals or common things. I teach a lot in Bali. In Bali, people live in community, so people grow up around children. I really, my first exposure to a baby was having my own. Yeah. So it is a different time. And so it is true on the job learning. I often say to moms postpartum, you know, if you got a job at McDonald's, you'd have someone that would supervise you and you'd have a training period before you kind of would graduate to do the job on your own. Parenting is the only job. We just throw you. We give you the title mother the minute the baby emerges with no training and no support. And that's why we have to, as women, as men, reclaim this, recreate community and recreate support. Because it's a process.

Yeah, definitely. And I love, too, you just bring, like, the lightness to it, but then also, like, not ignoring the challenge of it, you know, because it is challenging, but it's also, as you were talking about, connecting to your orgasmic birth and connecting to your body. It's all about trusting yourself. Right. Like, learning. That's been my biggest thing as a new mom of, like, okay, great. All these experts are telling me this, and this is how you should parent, and this is what you should do. Let me come back to trusting myself. Trusting myself and my baby. Myself and my baby. Like, it's always coming back to that. But it's challenging to, like, with all the conflicting information and how you should parent, to, like, doing your own thing.

Yes. And I'm so glad you said that, because that's really important. I tell people, throw all those books out and everything. I mean, really, you must find in your heart what feels right to you, because nobody knows your baby better than you. That baby grew inside your body. Like, you know each other more intimately than any other person on this entire planet. And so to put your trust in somebody else, whoever they are, makes no sense. So, you know, take in outside opinions, let them roll around in here, but ultimately, trust your heart, you really know. And I'm glad you've done that because you can see you're doing such a good job and have become that passionate woman and mother because of really being guided by your intuition.

Yeah, definitely. It's like I said earlier, the heroine's journey. And I have pioneers like you to thank for really lighting the path for us to step into motherhood powerfully. So thank you so much.

Thank you. I feel really blessed to be able to have this conversation and to hear your journey.

Yeah. Thank you. I love. You're just, like, contagious. Your ecstasy and pleasure and joy is just so. I can just feel it through you. So I appreciate that. And I just, you know, I feel lifted up just talking to you.

Well, thank you. And me with you because that's what life is. We have to keep lifting each other up and being able to, as you said, honor our challenges but find the way to move through them, you know, to lighten them and then we're more prepared for the next one.

Yeah, I know. And I have to say, talking to you today, I'm like, oh, I'm excited. Not quite yet. Before the next one. Like, I'm like, oh, this is going to be so fun. Thank you. Can you share where people can find more about you, the film and your book and your teachings and all of your.

Yeah.

Your work?

Sure. I have a couple different websites. The easiest probably is always orgasmicbirth.com because I think everybody remembers that. And they can watch the film digitally right there. They can rent it, they can download it. The book is there. So anyone that's pregnant has a lot of resources. But also we have a new website, that's my name, Deborah Pascali bonaro.com. and what's great with that is not only will we link to Orgasmic Birth, but I'm about to launch all webinars and a whole series on how to have an orgasmic birth. So I hope that people will look for that in the next couple of months. And we're even doing an Orgasmic birth app. We're doing a whole lot of new materials and they'll launch on our websites as well. And people can join me. I have a weekly pleasurable news with all different tips about finding pleasure in birth and life. And right now, if you join our news, you get our 10 tips for a pleasurable birth for free.

Fantastic. I love it. I love it.

I love it.

Well, thank you so much. Thanks for sharing your wisdom today. Thank you for all of your creations and lots of love.

Love to you too. And to everyone watching, wishing you all a pleasurable day. Yes.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mama Goddess. Sending you lots of love and blessings. If you'd like to connect more, go to mamagoddess.com until until next time. Keep rocking it and have an awesome day.