Play Can Change the World with Gwen Gordon

Welcome to Mama Goddess. I'm your host, Alexandra J. Johnson. This podcast is all about rocking your goddess life, creating vibrant health and celebrating motherhood and family life. It's about living an authentically awesome life. Let's have some fun. And today we have a fantastic guest, as always, Gwen Gordon. And Gwen started her. She's all about play. And you're gonna hear all about this in the interview. But she started off her kind of play career, if you will, designing and building Muppets for Sesame street, which I just think is so fascinating. And now she's focused on being a coach and a consultant and a producer. And one of her projects, among many, is a movie all about called Seriously how the future. The future Depends on play. So I just. I love Gwen. I love her work, and I love her playful spirit, and I'm so thrilled to be chatting with her today. So welcome, Gwen.

Thanks, Alexandra. It's great to be here with you.

Yeah. So I would love to start off with play. So how did you get interested in play? What is play for you? Give us the scoop.

The play history of Gwen Ellsworth. Well, it began when I was a fish. Yeah, well, of course, all of our lives begin with play. And I think in my case, I was probably a little bit on the incorrigible side. Had, you know, just. It was pretty irrepressible. And even though I had a playful personality, there are all the predictable blocks that come in, you know, with life stacking its plate, deprived, you know, there's just so many edicts that come into the playground that says, thou shalt not play. And, you know, it starts to patch up the doors. And for some of us, it's like. Well, for me, it was such a. It was such a central theme. You know, I felt like if I can't play, I don't really want to be here. You know, it's like. It's that basic. It was that primal a need. And so I had a really playful career. Muppets and all kinds of creative director. I've been really lucky that way. But all along, I've really felt like it's not about even what I do, you know, for a living. It's about just my. It's about freedom. It's about freedom and fullness. And I had a couple of experiences where I got to sort of looking for role models in my 20s, like most of us. And I was really aware that the people that I was most inspired by and the ones that were most actually spiritually mature were the most playful. The ones that were clearly playing as a way to avoid all responsibilities. They weren't that inspiring to me. But the ones who were really, like, you know, fully present in life and were living full on, fully engaged, but with a light heart, that was what I wanted. So I did a lot of things to learn about that. I had a real kind of pilgrimage and inquiry. And then things, you know, the stream started to meet between that spiritual inquiry and the work that I was doing, because the work was always playful. So now I'm making a movie about play. So creative work about play. And I'm really passionate about. About unleashing people's unbounded true nature, which is inherently playful, because we are. We're here to play. So there is a lot of inquiry, kind of intellectual and philosophical. I gathered and collected playmates and play people who were inspiring and play mentors. And, you know, there's just. It's just a real question of, like, if when we're free, we. We're free to play, then can we play ourselves free? Can play be both the path and the destination? And I learned a lot about that.

Yeah, I would love to go on that. It's, like, fascinating, you know, because there's so many things that we're trying to do to get there, you know, to be enlightened or to be a better human being or to be healthier or whatever it is that we're like. So we can get really serious about it. So I love the idea of what if play.

Yeah.

Tell us more about that.

What if play were the path, too? Well, yeah. I mean, everything's easier when you take yourself lightly. Like, let's face it. So that would mean that learning to play the piano or meditating, everything benefits from play. I mean, the benefit. They're. They're just so. It's like, play is the superfood. It's the kale of behavior. Everything, everything, your mind, your body, your emotions, your. Your joints, your. I mean, everything benefits from play. It's like. It's so basic, and it is, like, right there in the subcortical.

It's.

We. You know, there's a primitive play instinct because it's so darn good for you. So. So when it comes to, like, being serious, super serious about your spiritual path, we'll bring, like, everything can be work and everything can be play. It doesn't matter what the activity is. And we'll bring all our habits and all our compulsions, obsessions, and all our fixations to anything we do. And so if we have that going on, you Know, we tend toward, you know, feeling we have to do it, and it's got to be effort, and we've got to, like, suppress most of our primal, you know, urges in order to get anything done. Then we'll do that to our spiritual practice, too.

Totally interesting. So tell us more about this brain and, like, why we're wired for play. You know, because that. And obviously you're immersed in the play and I'm interested in the play, but not the research and the kind of the brain. And I think it's so inspiring for us because we just don't think that. We think play is almost, like, frivolous. That it's like, when you get everything else done, then you can go play. But what you're saying is we're wired.

For this, given the details? Well, there's a lot. I'll tell you. Well, first of all, we as humans are what's called a neotenous species. Neotenic means sustained childhood. So, like, you know, the calf, the pony is born, the foal is born and stands up within moments, you know, of being born. Meanwhile, we are like, you know, we're still like fetuses practically when we're born. And you nod knowingly. Shocking.

You're like, oh, my gosh, you can't do anything.

Completely dependent. And the whole brain is still developing and everything, you know, it just extends for eight years. There's a huge amount of development, but we continue to develop even after that. But those. That's a huge phase where massive amounts of wiring and structure and the whole brain's being formed. That. So I'll say more about what's happening with the brain during that period, but generally, then the childhood actually extends all the way through childhood. Qualities with the human that we find in other large primates actually extend all the way through adulthood. So we are more like an adolescent chimpanzee than the adult version of the chimpanzee is to an adolescent. We're like adolescent chimpanzees that have become more or less spiritually mature.

Interesting.

So, you know, we don't have the hair. We don't have the heavy brow. If you look at a baby adolescent chimpanzee side by side with a human, it's like, whoa. But then you look at an adult chimpanzee next to the two of them, and it's like, another thing. It has happened. Well, that doesn't happen to us. So we stay flexible and we have all these childlike qualities that can extend through adulthood. And playfulness is one of the keys. So that's why we're such an innovative species. And we keep growing and learning. And, you know, there's spontaneity and all kinds of things that become kind of heavy and fixed with the adult primates. So that's one thing. So that's our birthright, is to have play throughout our lives. And Ashley Montague is one of the big thinkers on this. And he wrote a book called Growing Young. And he says, I want to die very young, but late.

That is brilliant.

And he talks about something called psychosclerosis, which is the hardening of the psyche, which happens not naturally for the human. It doesn't have to happen. And then what happens with the brain in the first few years of life is the whole environment of the child is social. It's the mother, basically. It's the primary attachment. And in that relationship there are like two. So that in attachment theory, they talk about two basic primal behaviors that establish the attachment bond, which is the basic foundation of security that the child will have for their life. So the basic condition for play is safety. If we're not playing, like, we're wired for play, but why aren't we playing? You know, we're so gosh darn playful. Well, the problem is that we don't feel safe. We have some fundamental, you know, in a society where there's, you know, the basis of the whole society is separation. The psyche has, you know, diluted its separation from each other. It's from the. From itself, from the divine, from the earth. You know, it's just the separation is. Creates a really frightening situation, which makes it really hard to play. So in the beginning, the first year of life, that some of the connectedness, you know, that the child experienced in the womb surround just like completely undifferentiated connection in this oceanic realm. Then as the connect, as the beginning of individuation starts, which doesn't happen for a couple of years, but in that. In the first phase, in the first year of life, you have these two ways to create the attachment bond, which is the basis of safety. And that is through soothing, which is obvious. You know, I'm scared. But the other one is through stimulation, which is like at eight months, the child gets this ability. The ocular nerves are formed and it can recognize facial expressions. So you get. And how old is your baby?

He's 11 months.

Ah, so you have this already. So then you get this incredible rapport where it's like totally. All you want to do is just, you know, it's like, yeah, no, I.

Was going to say, like, it is, I mean, the newborn. This is my first child. So the newborn phase, like you're saying you're like, you're taking care of them and then when they have that spark that you're talking about, they just like come alive and you're like, oh my gosh, this is so person.

And you can play and they do. And it's constant and it's all these emotional kind of waves of activation and stimulation and just like froth and bubble and ogle and ogle and it's just like call and response love song. And then it subsides and it goes back, it goes up and down and all of that. That up and down regulates the nervous system and builds the capacity for strong, for pleasure because it's all the dopamine mediated channels are all forming in that time. And it gives the experience of the child that engagement, social engagement is wired to be pleasurable. Like, it's just, it's the, you know, the oxytocin's flowing and the endorphins and the dopamine. And so that's the basic kind of, that's the sort of emotional operating system for engagement that starts with the relationship and then it starts to extend in exploratory play where, oh, can that engagement, that joy of engagement become learning, you know, about the world and, you know, picking up objects and putting it in your mouth and hitting things and pulling the cat apart and like, oh, that can be fun too.

Yes.

So all of that, those two basic attachment behaviors, that Bowlby, who's the sort of progenitor of attachment theory, he described attachment behavior and exploratory behavior, but he didn't talk about them as play. And what I'm contributing is that that centrally they're enacted as play and that they're pleasurable, that the play is sort of suggests. It's like we're here to enjoy contact with each other and the world. We're hired for it. And that, that can extend throughout life. And it does depend on the feeling of security.

So then, because, you know, I think for so many of us, we're play deprived in our culture. We're play deprived. So that's like the feeling we're not feeling safe, safe. And we've hardened. Like we've lost that kind of that creativity and that playful spirit that we had when we were young. Just naturally.

Well, it's lost for lots of reasons. It's lost because of attachment issues, you know, developmental trauma. Like, you know, if you can't count on a secure base that there's a safe haven that you can go. When you. When you get hurt or scared, then you're going to hold. It's like if you're not held, you're going to hold, that you're going to get armored.

Yes.

So that's, you know, that's really, really important. The earliest experiences. But it's never too late to have a happy childhood. You can't. Great plasticity and, you know, there's so many healing ways to heal. And most of us didn't, let's face totally. But I think that one of the ways. So I like to think about worldviews that form out of different attachment experiences. And if we have a healthy attachment experience, then we see the world as a playground and we become naturally playful because we meet things as playmates, because we have a sense that we're okay, we're safe. It's safe to be that open, present, flexible. If we have insecure attachment, like talk about anxious attachment usually, then we see the world as a proving ground where we have to test to make sure we're okay. Other people can be trusted, and there's a kind of looking for approval. It stops being a playground because we need to get something in order to be safe. And then the third one is insecure. Avoidant. Attachment sees the world more as a battleground where things are threats, ambiguity is a threat. And the thing about play is that it thrives on uncertainty. We don't want to know how the play turns out. It's like, we want a surprise. It's stimulating. So when we feel safe, that uncertainty is fun. You know, it's like the unknown is, like, exciting.

Yes.

But if we don't have that security, then the unknown is sure to be threatening. So that's when we see the world as a battleground. And then the most disorganized attachment sees the world as a prisoner because it's just fundamentally felt, experienced as unsafe. So then if you look at those patterns and you think, well, as a culture, where are we at? How are we acting? Because you might come out of a really secure attachment experience and then go into the world and you experience that everyone else is behaving and that the dominant culture is acting as if it's really a battleground.

Yes, totally.

Yeah.

It's fascinating that you said that because, you know, earlier, before we started the interview, you're just saying, you know, like, play is life and like, you want everything to be fun. And I know for me, like, I'm very. I have a Playful spirit. And I'm just.

It's very.

It's just who I am. It's one of my strengths. But I remember when I started, like, in high school and then college, like, it just felt heavier. And you're like, okay, it's not okay to have fun. And then life, like, sucked. I had, like a quarter life crisis, you know, so now I feel like in my 30s. I've been, like, trying to get, in my 20s and 30s, like, getting back to that playful spirit.

Right.

Like, so many of us just, like, we want to play, but then we just. It feels like the world just gets heavy and we get really serious.

Yeah. Yeah, I know.

What do we do about that?

I know. Bomb, right? Flash mobs.

That's really funny.

Yeah. No, I want to really answer that seriously, but for some reason, there's a parable. Nietzsche has a parable about starting life as a child. And then we become camels, which is like taking in, you know, the whole history, intellectual, you know, we absorb the learning as learners, like, not. And then we become lions. He described the child, the camel, the lion, which is, like, individuating my voice, my power, my presence, full presence, my light. And then back to the child. And so he describes sort of the life as an ark, in a healthy sense, that then we become children again after, in a kind of the post heroic moment. Like, we've done our big journey and we can. We know, like, whether there was cheese down that tunnel or not. You know, we've gone down a lot of tunnels, and we're kind of back to the simplicity of the simple, the joy of being, because we've been on the big stage, you know.

Yeah.

And we know the limits. And, you know, whatever happened, whether we succeeded or failed, it's our life. So I think there are some natural pressures that there's the, you know, the context of that. The world in college, it's a proving ground. You have to earn stuff. But it's also a beautiful initiation, you know, where you bring your playful spirit into relationship to the structures of the world. It starts to get ripened. You start to get, you know, kind of learn to modulate things. It's like there's some valuable aspect to that. The heaviness doesn't have to be there. You can be learning without it. But the heaviness is there because. Partly because of resistance, but also because there's a, you know, there's external. Any message that we get that we're not absolutely, you know, beautiful beings the way we are, you know, to be Celebrated is oppressive to be. So we've either internalized it from earlier moments or we get it there. And it's like we don't want to. So either we are resisting the initiations and dealing with the gunk, the dark cloud, but we are an incredibly play deprived culture. We're the only developed country that has absolutely no paid vacation days. And we work, you know, we average 13 vacation days a year. Whereas like Italy, I think has 42, I mean, for a month. And we don't even pay for ours and they pay for theirs.

Wow.

Some amount is painful anyway. It's like extreme and you know, the amount of antidepressants. So as much as we think of America as this like gregarious, there's some self image of us being sort of gregarious, happy, freedom loving, you know, country. There's. We're actually a work obsessed culture that's, you know, really right there in the proving ground, a battleground. And the, and the, also the incredible emphasis on the individual, you know, the individualism to become a star, you know, to. That is not the source of happiness, you know, that runs counter to the truth, you know, of our interconnectedness. And it's an important stage to, you know, individuation. But we're kind of fixated there.

Yeah. Well, I think that's interesting that you brought that up because in our culture it's interesting because I wonder why we don't play. And I think part of it is that star, like it is about us and we need to be getting ahead, we need to be making money, we need to be making a name for ourselves and all of that. And then you look at play and you're like, what is that?

That's helping further my career.

Yeah, that's not how exactly, you know, like that. I mean, okay, maybe it makes me happier, but it's not gonna actually get me, you know, like where I want to be. So I think then I know for me, I've had that too. Like, I feel so much better when I'm playing. But there's like, you got to be serious and you've got it, you know, get your career and do the right things that it's depressing. It's not surprising. There's so many people on antidepressants. Right. I mean, I get it. And like you were saying, the wiring, right. We're not wired for that.

Yeah, yeah. Well, if we feel like our basic sense of value depends on those things and it isn't just a overflowing of the gift that Wants to come through us, but we're actually needing to get something to feel okay from it. Then there's a basic, you know, then it's coming from deficiency, a sense of deficiency, which is, you know, which is itself the obstacle to play. It's the sense of I'm not safe because I'm not enough.

So we're working really hard to be enough than to be safe. And then if we ever will become safe working really hard, then we can play. But that never comes right because it's kind of like that loop of like we're always trying.

Well, I'm actually discovering that a lot of women. I'm about to turn 50 and I really see that it's like it gets better. It gets better as you get older. I mean, for me anyway, I was, you know, one ambitious little cookie in my 30s and early 40s, and I just crossed a threshold. And it's like, if it's not in my joy, I am not interested. And my joy. And it's like if I'm coming out of feeling deficient, if I'm doing something out of feeling, which is anytime I'm compulsive, it's because I feel some basic deficiency or some emotion I don't want to feel, then I got to handle that because I don't want to do my life that way. And so that's really like, there's no. I'll never fill the hole of no value through accomplishments. I just. It just never happens. So, you know, you can defer the play. Luckily, we have these like, kind of playgrounds, like places in our lives which we decide, you know, don't matter or they don't have consequences in real life. So we let loose, you know, and if so, you know, that's a really important balance. If you're going to have a work obsessed life and be, you know, in the Persona project, I call it, then at least have breaks where you can let the energy flow through. I mean, I don't like to think of them as the breaks that'll help fuel you so you can go back to your big heroic project. But I do think it's better than nothing. And honestly, my deeper, you know, the way I think of play as a spiritual path is if you think about just the energy of life as wanting to play through you and that we block it. And there are blocks, you know, we get blocked. There's. The real path is to remove the blocks to the way life and chi and energy wants to play through you. And that often has to do with facing really sucky emotions, you know, and having to be with things that are really uncomfortable in, like, little. Little bits at a time. Because that's when, you know, it's like a leg that's fallen asleep. You know, you drag it around and it's just weight and, you know, it's like, that's the heaviness. And yet to, you know, bring it back to life, it prickles. You have to endure this, like. But we do it. We wiggle it, we wiggle it. We wiggle it, you know, because it's like we want our leg back. So, you know, it's like, if we want our life back, if we want our hearts back, if we want to be full in our play and let the play come back. It takes touching things that can feel unbearable and really, in a disciplined way, because we need containers and we need the safety that we didn't get to meet those things. So that's where the rubber hits the road in terms of the spiritual work of it. And it's slowly. But that's what, you know, that's what I would turn toward if I find myself in compulsive, you know, heaviness and knowing that the world is not like, don't take my cues from the world, you know, it's not a reliable source of play or. So I hope that, as you were.

Talking about that, too, I think that it is. It does, like, take work. It doesn't. I love that of, like, coming alive. Like, we want our leg back, we want our heart back, we want our joy back, you know, and it takes some work. And as you were saying it, there's a level of vulnerability, right? Of being willing to be vulnerable and work through it and explore this part of ourselves that I know. And one of the reasons that we're doing this, because I know within me, I have. It wants to be expressed more. And everyone watching this, and so many of the people are like, yes, I want more joy. Like, how do I get it? So I love that you just said that. It does take work, and it's a process, and it's not like, oh, all of a sudden, I declare, I want joy today, and life is going to be grand from here on out.

Yeah. And when I hear you say that, it also makes me want to balance it with the fact that we are always free. Like, the fact is we are always free. Like, all those blocks that's in the psyche's development. And at the same time, as, you know, our true nature is unbounded. That's always True. No matter what. No matter what. The blocks are so like, you know, there's like the laughter yoga clubs where you just, you know, you get that you can laugh no matter what. That that's still available, you know. So I've had those experiences of coming in really grumpy and like, okay, babe, make me laugh, you know, and like getting really, like having to feel like large chunks of, you know, of rust had to fall off and then. But I'm there and it's available when I let myself just say yes to that. And then inevitably that expansiveness will bring up more blocks and then you work with those. But really knowing that we are free and there is a way that interplay between our true nature that is unbounded, that's playful and the journey. So like I'm already free to play and I have blocks to remove to play to know that we can tap into our joy, you know, the way the slaves were able to sing in the middle of, you know, well, bounded that it's still possible to find joy no matter what. And we can always release more blocks and liberate more joy, you know, as we go. It's a both and I love that.

So what's your thought on this idea of play and pleasure being indulgent and something that we have to wait for and then. And you also, I want to talk about, you wrote on your blog, one of your blog posts, like, the toxic. Was it toxic mimics? Like, you know, we, for so many of us, we have this pleasure and desire to go do something, but then for most of the things we enjoy, sex, food, whatever, there can be the addictive side. So can you talk about addictions, toxic mimics, and how that plays into all of this?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, people often wonder what the heck I mean by play. Like when we talk about play, you know, it's like, what do you mean have more fun? Do you know, do I have to put something else on my to do list?

Yes.

Is this play the new Pilates? And I'm like, oh, God, help me if I ever been in the position of having people think they have one more thing to do to be the perfect person.

Totally.

So I. So I've really had to work to kind of clarify what it is and how am I going to get from here to toxic mimics?

You can go wherever you want to go, go where you're going to go now. And we'll come back to toxic mimics.

Well, no, I think it's interesting. So I do start to talk about how it's an attitude, and we can cultivate it. And it's about the removal of blocks and remembering what's always there and all that. So that comes full circle. We do have this association of. To play is the impulse of joy. When we're experiencing joy, we naturally play and play creates joy. It's this lovely little frothy feedback loop. And it's a real. When we're playing in a way that's connected. So there's often this. What the Buddhists call near enemies, which is the quality but without a deep insight into interconnectedness and impermanence. So you might have like, equilibrium or what's it called? Not equilibrium, but equanimity is one of the four brahma vihras in Buddhist. Which is the highest qualities. But the near enemy is indifference. Whereas equanimity comes from the true qualities, real presence with. And I like to think that play, the near enemy of play, is a kind of passive entertainment. And, you know, it's the compulsive version. Because first of all, in the compulsive version, play has to do with freedom. And if we're not free to play or to not play, we're not playing. And so compulsion is like a free lacks freedom. It's the freedom you lack, the freedom not to play. If you feel like you have to play video games or gamble or something, you're not free. So that's a kind of. Points to the idea of the toxic mimic, that when we're not free, when it's compulsive and has an addictive quality, what we're really doing is we're finding a toxic mimic. And a toxic mimic. Derek Jensen coined the term. It's basically something that promises to fulfill this basic primal, beautiful human or deeper urge, impulse for connection, for love, for intimacy, for joy. These things that are our birthrights. And the toxic mimic is like a used card salesman and says, yeah, you want that? Well, I'll give you this for half price. It basically, it's like the thing, but it doesn't fulfill it. So we have pornography instead of intimacy. So people can get addicted to anything that doesn't quite fulfill the actual need because it keeps promising without fulfilling. So toxic mimics. Everything good has a toxic mimic. And what's characteristic of toxic mimics is that they become commodities, so we pay for them. So someone. The economy is actually based on us having an appetite and being convinced that the toxic mimic is the thing. And that's why even sugar is like a toxic mimic for sweetness. So that's addictive. And you know, we kind of hijack these, the channels that go to the reward center in the brain, but through things, through things that are actually. We're not wired in evolutionary terms for those to be satisfied or nourished in any deep way. So the pleasure comes without. And the pleasure is short lived. And it's like an itch, you know, we just scratch it and want and it subsides for a moment and then we get more. So that's often when we talk about the indulgence of play or of joy, it's really. We think of hedonism. And hedonia is actually the word for pleasure. But hedonism isn't about pleasure. Just like materialism isn't about the material world. It's actually about the toxic mimic where we're finding pleasure in things that don't satisfy the deepest joy, which. And the deepest joy comes from connection. Connection to ourselves, each other, the divine, the planet. It's like without that connection we get, we're seeking something, we're compulsive, you know, we want to find that connection. So we keep getting these toxic mimics for something that really only the connection, the sense of connectedness can, can fuel. And the connectedness is deeply related to the differentiated. I don't want to just say like just about getting enfolded into an undifferentiated soup. We want to be fully, uniquely ourselves. So that's also. There are two big impulses. One is for connection, which is fullness, and the other is for freedom, which is transcendence. And so we want both. And the transcendent, the toxic mimic for transcendence is obviously drugs, you know, or the kind of the high. Like sometimes people even get addicted to exercise because they'll get the endorphin thing. And it's like this transcendent well being which is required, requires constant fueling. You know, it goes away and then we want that state back. And we want that state back. And it's actually something that's pointing to the truth of, you know, we are connected and we are transcendent and we can know that and we don't have to chase the state.

Hmm, I love that and I love that. Like, it's like coming back to like, what does nourish us, you know, like, is it really the exercise does or the sweets do? But then like what? I love that you're just saying like, what's the deeper. Yes, not the, you know, being persuaded by the toxic mimic, but like, okay, I want this sweet, but is it do I really want this sweet, or do I just want more sweetness in my life?

Yeah. It's so funny because just this morning I was at the store, I ran out of bananas, so I was going to get my. I have a smoothie every morning, and I was going to get my ingredients for my really healthy smoothie. And so I was at the store, and they didn't have bananas, so I was forced to shop. So I actually went and I got the green smoothie that they make, which is like, okay, but there I was next to the pastry section, so I also got a little apple.

What is it?

It's like, all butter and sugar and apple. Anyway, it was like, I'm sitting there with my green smoothie and my apple thing, and I'm like, eating my apple thing on the way to the checkout thing, and I'm covered with powdered sugar. I'm like, wow, this is like. This is so good. You know, it's like, mama.

And I realized it was sort of.

Almost like a toxic mimic for mother. Bread and doughy and buttery and sweet. And it's like, you know, I felt like I had my mama. And then I'm at the. I'm at the counter, and they're actually laughing at me because I've got powdered sugar everywhere. And. And then I have my smoothie and I'm. And it's like kale and celery and everything. And I could feel like this dramatic difference, like this sort of high buzz, almost like tinny, you know, the way that sugar is sort of almost tinny. And then this like, oh, my cells are opening and going. Thank you. To the kale. I was like, all right, this is it. This is it right here. You know, this is the compass for health that I'm sensing. Like, do I want to indulge this? Which is a short term kind of like hyper feeling. It's just like, so really tuning into what are the deepest nourishment. And at the deeper level where the cells are saying yes.

Yeah.

Instead of just the taste bud and the mama, you know, it's like, maybe I'll call my mother today.

Exactly. And it's also interesting because those are like, you were saying, like, it's a hit and it's easy. It's easier to get the apple whatever than it is to actually, you know, whether it's talk to your partner or call your mom or do something else. Like, those are just, like, passive, almost like you said, you know, it's just like, it just kind of happens to us, rather than us being an active person in the creation.

Yeah. Because the coolest thing is not just to make it myself. Like, I could even feel there was something a little less satisfying about drinking it when it was prepared. The cooler thing is not only making it myself, but now I've got a garden and I grow half the things, and it's like I just feel like my whole being, it's like I'm woven in. My morning drink weaves me into creation and my body's happy versus a muffin. Yeah.

That'S great. And I love that too, because so many people think that, like, pleasure with the food, you know, that's a great example. Like, you're like, oh, pleasure. You know, you need to have pleasure with your food. And I love what you're saying is, like, pleasure is like feeling that aliveness in your body, and it's not the hit that the sugar gives us. But sometimes we can get distracted.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, there's a whole.

I think I mentioned to you earlier that this is off camera that there's, you know, since the beginning in the Greek area, when we were starting to reflect on what constituted the good life and Aristotle started to reflect on it, we've separated the idea of hedonism, or hedonic pleasure, hedonic well being, from, I think it's pronounced something like edamonic well being. And hedonic well being was associated with pleasure and edomonic was associated with meaning. And so they've been kind of artificially separated. There are obvious overlaps, but they've really been downstream from that. Hedonism has been seen as the undermining meaning. And in some ways the surface pleasure is what is the hedonist part. But if we go right into the word hedonic, the original idea of pleasure was really like happiness, life satisfaction. And in ways that our organisms are designed for, like, as an animal in the world in its basic primal sense, the things that give us pleasure are the things that are really good for us. So, you know, I write in the blog that the butterfly wouldn't be attracted to the flower. And if it were bad for it, like the things that taste good and that feel good, we wouldn't even be here if we didn't use that as a compass and be attracted to those things. So that's the hedonic part. It's the pleasure part, and it's fundamental. But we're also attracted to things that are hard, like having children. And people will say, I wasn't happy, but boy, it was meaningful. So, in fact, Joseph Campbell, I think, captured it in some sense when he said, follow your bliss, because that's the compass for if you follow the pleasure, it will actually almost purify itself, even if you start with sugar, because you'll eventually just OD and just feel like, don't like that. But you couldn't skip the step of overindulging or being an addict or, you know, like, none of it's wrong. Go for it. Follow your desires and inquire, like, what's at the root of this? What do I really want? You know, because that'll get you closer, and then it leads to meaning, and it leads to things that you're willing to work hard for and defer pleasure for. And ultimately, it leads to, you know, the freedom and the fullness, the connection which, you know, the happiest moments, the moments of play. When we play with each other, they're the richest memories. So they're really the connection we connect through so that it intersects there. They're meaningful.

Yeah, I love the meaning and pleasure, too. Like, because for so many of us, we do. As you were saying, that we do separate. You know, it's like, I work at this job or. And I'm working on this, and then I have pleasure over here. You know, Like, I love the. The vision of kind of, like, bringing them together. Like, you. You know, you work. Your work is your play. Your play is your work. Like, that's where I feel. I mean, like, is this. I'm talking to you right now. I'm working, but am I working or am I playing? You know, like, seems pretty awesome to me.

Yeah, well, that, I think, is really possible. And it is. You know, it's easy to think, well, that's just a sign of privilege, you know, like, you know, like, well, you know, good work, if you can get it. And in many cases, you know, it's easy to think that the condition for enjoying your work is that you have to design it or, you know, like, a lot of us who. Well, if you had the father I had, it was completely unemployable. But an entrepreneur, like, I didn't even think I could be employed.

I was this.

You know, I had to do stuff myself. That. That's a particular, you know, kind of imprint. But there are many people who don't separate, like, you know, who have work that. Who knows, the work itself might not be meaningful, but it brings them in contact with lots of people. Or I just, you know, I think eventually there is a certain level where there Is you do need the privilege, enough resources, you know, where you get to have some choices.

Yeah.

And that's real.

Yeah.

It's possible to be happy no matter what, but it's really hard when you don't have enough money for food.

Totally.

So. And then as you kind of climb up the. What is it, Kohlberg's ladder or Maslow's hierarchy. Yeah, Hierarchy of needs. It is interesting that, you know, you'll get. It's easier to be integrated.

But then don't you think that that starts? Because I think a lot of times we can see that. And then we think, oh, when I get there, then it'll be okay. And like, we gotta start where we are. Right. Like, following our bliss. Like, I feel like where I am in my life is because I've taken so many risks that might have been. Like, she is an idiot. What is she doing? But it's all. It's wired in me to follow my bliss. Like, I. There's no other way to do it, you know? Yeah, it was uncomfortable and challenging, but do you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel the same way. Like, I get signals like, you know, it's a great job, but no, it's not aligned. And I think that the truest well being and joy and pleasure really come from being aligned with your true nature. And we learn what that is by making mistakes, you know, by falling off. It's a dynamic steering process. So I've done lots of things. I get really big feedback. It's like, you know, for some of us, there's a little bit of longer leash. I don't have any. Like, I have to make this movie about play. I mean, but on the other hand, you know, like, I feel like I'm a flea on a meteor. It's a joy to ride, but I'll burn up if I think it's me and I'll burn up if I think I can stop it. And so you get kind of fewer choices in some sense.

Yeah, yeah.

But what you're doing is more aligned. You have fewer. You lower tolerance for being aligned. So I just, I hear, yeah, totally.

And it's. This has come up numerous times, numerous, in a lot of the interviews is like the courage it takes to truly follow your bliss, your joy, your pleasure, your play. Like, we think it's all like fun and games, but, you know, when it comes down to it, it's like courageous in a world where, you know, not often celebrated to go off in a different path.

Yeah, yeah. Makes me really curious about how. What courage it took for you. And.

I love that you brought up the mistakes too, you know, because I think. And I. I love that you're just. For me, it's been really important to make the mistakes. You know, when you're in the mistake, you're like, oh, my gosh, I am an idiot. That was a stupid decision. But I think a lot of times we look at people who are following their bliss and we think that they didn't make any mistakes. Like, they didn't ever look like an idiot. And every single person that I talk to, they're like, I've looked like an idiot more times than you. That's why I'm here.

Yeah. I'm starting to find ways to reframe some of that. But, yeah, no, of course, of course I've made massive. I mean, the whole thing is like, make big, brilliant mistakes. Mistakes, like, and a lot of them and, you know, fail. Fast forward, they say. But I like to. Like, I was finding myself saying I'm sorry all the time. This is like a, you know, like, I keep. It was like a habit, you know, where I didn't even know I was doing it. I'm training myself to say I'm sorry instead of I'm sorry. Whatever I'm about to say I'm sorry. Oh, it happened. Oh, there I am. So. So when you. So I'm hearing, like, when you think, ah, I'm an idiot, I'm just wondering, like, what could you say differently that would just wire it, I'm absolutely brilliant failure, you know? Yeah. You know, and you think, well, what is the courage? What is it courageous about it? It's like to look back, it's. Because there's some part of your identity that's ready to. On the idea of failure and keep you down. And, like, the courage. If you know that you're gonna get back up and you're gonna learn again, and you can trust that, then it's not that courageous. It's like. It's like. It's just the next thing, it's like, well, this work. Nope, that didn't work. Will this work? Nope. And the bigger the stakes, the bigger the learnings. I've had devastating, you know, lessons where I thought I was losing everything, where I've been fired and just lost communities. I mean, and they were complete reflections of, you know, that was. I think life has this brilliant economy where you just don't. It doesn't give you more lesson than you need, you know, like, it doesn't waste Energy that way. And so I. I got exactly the level of, you know, force that I needed. Just. Your job is to pay attention.

Yeah.

You know, but it can suck. Be scary. And, you know, it was devastating, and I had to just feel like, you know, completely awful for a long time. Yeah.

And I love that, too, that you can and that, you know, it's great in hindsight, we can look at it and re. You know, like, reframe it.

Like, oh, yeah.

This is like, you can see. See it once you've already gone through it, you know, but when you're in it, sometimes you're like, I can't see it. Yeah.

Yeah, I know. That's why we need friends. Yeah.

That is awesome.

That's amazing. I mean, we're so. It's so tender. Hearts are so tender, and we fling ourselves into the wildest situations and we make it. And these tender hearts, you know, can choose to open more or to shut more around it, but, you know, it's like. It's amazing how, you know, I think of what I've put myself through and how heartbreaking some of the failures were, and yet I truly. I mean, here I am. I guess because of where I am now, which I'm feeling really good. I feel really a lot of joy daily. And I'm living in a lot of gratitude. And so everything's included in my gratitude right now. And if we're in a shitty moment, I might think it all was punishment, cast a different story on it. But all of it has helped shape this moment, which is actually not bad. Yeah.

Well, I'm curious on the gratitude, too, because I think that is a huge component of bringing us back, don't you think? To the abundance of joy and play and awesomeness that we actually do have in our lives. Because sometimes we can think that we. We can't see it at all. Like, you know, we just have blinders on, and we're like, everything sucks. And you're like, does it really? And I know for me, I don't want to feel gratitude when I'm in those moments, but every time I do. So you can just talk about your gratitude practice and why that is a. An amazing way to kind of go about that.

And it connects so closely with play. Well, yeah, I think gratitude is really a state that reflects a clear heart and a clear mind. It's a reflection of that, so it's also a path to it. So if you can wedge a little gratitude, the simplest things, it's really just great to be in a practice where you're looking because I think you start to get what you measure for. Right. So it does change. It's not just a passive witnessing thing. It's the. The witnessing actually acts and creates and manifests stuff to be grateful for. But I know it's much easier to get into the habit when there's clearly abundance. So do that. You're like, start the habit then, you know. But if you're not, if you're in a place where it's, you know, you don't feel like playing. You know, the thing about gratitude is it naturally leads because it breeds joy and joy wants to play. And it's the expression of gratitude. It's like the expression of the cup floweth over, like, let's enjoy this amazing abundance and playground together. So it's easy to just extend out and share. But yeah, I mean, if you're not in a grateful place, I think it is really helpful to both two things. One is to be willing to feel, not try to erase the feeling by going to gratitude. Find the things that you can genuinely be grateful for authentically, but also to be willing to feel depression. If you're sad for a long time, there's something that you're not willing to feel that's underneath it. So I know that feelings move through me pretty quickly if I'm willing to be with them. And then I'm usually grateful for them because they're the dimension, fullness of living. So, yeah, if life is sucking and things are hard, then there's something to be with that's even deeper than maybe you think you've touched before.

And then just kind of sitting with it and exploring it and being willing to kind of contemplate and ask the questions like, what is it?

It's even deeper. So inquiry can help what is true right now. But then sensing it really lives not in the mind, but just the felt sense, sensing the body, the contractions you might start. Some people are easier with sensation, so they'll have an immediate sense of it's tight in my throat or feeling this queasiness or like I almost have a hole in my belly sometimes I felt like I had shards of glass in my belly. And then to. So the sensation then can lead you to the emotion, you know, or some people start with emotion, but it's also just to touch. To touch it, the thing that feels unbearable, like, and then come back out and look for things that feel good, you know, so titrate so you're touching something hard and then, you know, maybe do it with a Friend. Because that's already an affirmation that not everything sucks. Or do it around beauty. Something that holds you.

Yeah.

And, you know, if you touch it slowly, it's like you can metabolize it. Like, just interesting sort of going back and forth from the hard thing to the thing, the resource, back to the. And then it starts to unwind. And this has been a powerful part of my work, my practice, personally, because, you know, we can't get to the whole thing right away. Some of these things are, like, really were unbearable. But touching it gently, and it's like. Okay, had enough with an intentional space for that.

Yeah.

Held by someone or in your practice.

Yeah. That's beautiful. Beautiful practice. Thank you for sharing. Yeah, it's so. It is so. You know, like, our hearts are just so tender. You know, we can put a big facade on, you know, but when it gets down to it, we're just, like, mushy, like little love bugs.

We want to connect, we want to be seen. We want to be vulnerable. You know, we're longing so deeply for intimacy with ourselves and each other. And, you know, we're so frightened of it because it was. You know, it's just so many times you've gotten hurt.

Yeah.

But it's. I really think. I think the gratitude practice actually helps me. It helps me feel held. You know, it's like that safety.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

It reminds me that I'm. That the world is of the kindness of life.

And then there are good things, like, happen. You know, there is goodness there. I love that. The safety. I've never heard of it. Gratitude with the safety.

Yeah. Yeah. There's a benevolence, there's a friendliness. It's a friendly universe. I'm receiving gifts. It opens the flow of energy, which is, like, the most painful thing is blockage.

Yeah, definitely. Okay, so I have one more question. Somebody, if they're watching this, you know, they're thinking, okay, so what is one thing that I could start doing today to kind of add more play? And I know everybody has their own authentic play experience, expression. But do you have, like, you know, I know you lead playgroups and you kind of guide people through this. So what would you recommend? One, two, three.

Whatever comes up.

Okay.

Okay. So you. Right now, consider right this moment, what does my body want to do that would feel good? Like, is there a stretch? Is there a shoulder roll? Is there a. You know, maybe make five faces? Yeah. So this is actually. This is so funny. It came up now because. Follow your pleasure right now. What would feel good? And just let it lead to the next thing and give yourself 15 minutes to just do what feels good undistractedly. Like, like follow like you're. You're hot on the scent of a trail. Oh, that breath felt good, you know, and just let yourself have the pleasure and build that into your. Just build that in because it becomes very cool.

And I was also thinking part of the conference is like sex too. So we're talking about sex. I was thinking that's like a great practice for couples too, you know, like building the intimacy. Like, what is that?

Oh, couples, groups, individuals.

Whatever flavor you want. That's awesome. So it's, in a way it can be like, not that we want to add more to do's, but a meditation practice. Like 15 minutes of meditation or 15 minutes of exploring your pleasure.

Yeah. And start with your body. Start with your body because that'll get you present and your pleasure channels. You'll start to recognize pleasure. Like some people forgotten what it looks like and feels like. Find it in the smallest ways. Like just. It's so pleasurable, the first stretches of the day. Like, oh, let those be luscious, you know, be delicious. So there's that. I think they're, you know. So I dance every day. I think we talked about this. I have a dance practice which is just like, I have predictable music and leaky Joe, you know, gets me going and I'll just. I just love letting loose. But it's. I think if you start, if you start with some full permission, you know, to follow the pleasure, then it's easier to find the pleasure during the day that you.

Yeah, so I love that it's very different. Like starting your day rushed or starting your day with 15 minutes of pleasure.

Yeah, yeah. And if it's with your partner, fabulous.

Yeah, that just as you were saying that like I've incorporated because, you know, part of this conference is because I'm a new mom. And I was like, I. You know, it can get pretty intense being a parent. I'm like, I want more delight and more fun. And so just throughout the last couple months of doing these interviews and stuff, I started doing kind of a morning thing with my son where we play music and we sing. And he started dancing like he has his own dance. And I start singing and if I'm holding him, he already starts bouncing.

The kid. The baby bounce dance, it's so like, it's like they don't even notice that they're doing it. It just happens to them. Sometimes it just they just fall over.

Exactly. He'll bounce on the bed and then fall over and laugh. I'm like, this is, like, the best thing ever. Like, to start your day off bouncing with your baby. I love it.

I have a pug who sleeps with me under my arm. His head lands here. And in the morning, at some point, he rolls over on his back, and I am barely awake, but my hand goes right to his belly. And, like, one of the first things I start saying in the morning is, you're a good boy, you're a good boy, you're a good boy. And then sometimes I go to myself, like, I'm a good girl, you're a good boy. We're a good boy. We're a good girl. You're a good boy. And we're both, like, rolling around like, oh, we're so good. And then Macy, the big girl, she'll come onto the bed. Cause, like, that looks like fun.

Oh, my gosh.

You're a girl. You're a good boy. I'm a good girl.

And you're just having a dog party. A dog dance party.

That's when Tony, my partner, isn't around.

Or you can start scratching him.

You're a good boy. You're a good boy. We're good girl. We're a good boy. We're puppy pile.

Yeah, I love that, too. We're gonna wrap up, but I love that you bring in the pets, too, because that's a. I found. That's a great way for me to connect more to that. Like, you can just do stupid stuff with your dog and with your baby, you know? Like, it's like, okay to kind of explore.

Yeah. I think that's half the reason people get babies. Well, at least half the reason I spend time with them. It's like, ah, I just have more permission. It's like, if my range is expanded, we want a full range, so. Yeah. And dogs, of course. I mean, even if Garbanzo hated that, I'd probably still do it. Lady, I'm not a good boy. Knock it off.

That is awesome. Okay, cool. So can you share with us where we can learn more about you and your coaching and your consulting and your. I'm actually all that.

I'm not coaching.

Well, you're not coaching.

Yeah, no, but. And I do mostly creative directing. I do lead workshops. I'm mostly focused right now on the movie and the creation of the playground around the movie. And so. And I will be blogging on Huffington Post soon. They picked up a blog, so that's the way to play. But come to my website, to the film's website and the Facebook page. The film is seriously the movie. So it's no longer seriously. The future depends on Play. It's seriously a movie about play. But it's going to be renamed. It's still a working title. So that's www.seriouslythemovie.com. and then the Facebook page is facebook.com seriouslythemovie. And if you sign up on the newsletter, for the newsletter, there's so much we're going to be instigating play and getting people really involved and the movie is going to be participatory in some ways. So it's going to be a playground. That's the idea.

Very cool. I love it. I can't wait.

And I will. I do consult. I do. So you can always contacted me through the film website. I do a lot of creative directing and is directed animations for a film called Split. So there's a. There's a lot. Whatever you want, contact, contact me. I'll say no.

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. Thank you.

I love.

I love talking to you. I love that play is your passion and I appreciate all the research that goes into this and deeply, deeply grateful.

Yeah. Thank you, Alexandra. It's been a joy talking with you and thank you for creating this space where I can share my gifts and you can corral them all together in a coherent way with I can't wait to see who else talks to you and what they have to say.

Fantastic. Yeah, I'm very excited. You'll appreciate the video for this as well because I do a little dancing.

Oh, you'll appreciate it. I'll be like, can't wait.

All right, cool. Well, thank you so much. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mama Goddess. Sending you lots of love and blessings. If you'd like to connect more, go to mamagoddess.com until next time. Keep rocking it and have an awesome day.