Slow Family Living with Carrie Contey, Ph.D.

Welcome to Mama Goddess. I'm your host, Alexandra J. Johnson. This podcast is all about rocking your goddess life, creating vibrant health and celebrating motherhood and family life. It's about living an authentically awesome life. Let's have some fun.

Hello, I'm Alexandra J. Johnson and today's fantastic guest is Kerry Conti. Carrie co founded the Family Living Movement. Her scholarly and hands on research gave Birth to Calms, a guide to soothing your baby and what babies want. Calming and communicating with your baby. Kerri earned her PhD in clinical psychology with a specialty in prenatal and perinatal psychology.

Welcome, Carrie. Oh, it's so nice to be here. Thank you for having me, Alexandra.

Yes, I'm so, I'm thrilled about talking with you. I love your work and I read what Babies Want last week and Slow Family Living ebook the week before. So I'm fired up. So thank you for all your amazing work.

Great. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you.

That's so cool. I'd love to start off with what is prenatal and perinatal psychology.

Well, basically my take on that is the study of how, what happens to us before birth or even before conception. Some would argue there's information there, but definitely before birth, around birth and after birth. And I actually would push it out till about five years old, at least three. So it's not right around birth, it's that first several years of life, how what happens to us then really shapes how we unfold. And not shapes necessarily as a direct result, but it's really the interplay between the big being, as I like to call it, the person who arrives, and the little body that arrives, very small and primitive and neurologically and physically immature. And how in those first several years there's just this massive explosion of unfolding. And so the field really looks at that. And what I love about the field of pre and perinatal psychology is, is that it does take into account a more holistic view of not just a little child, it's a holistic, it incorporates consciousness and the physical. So it's all both.

Right. That's so great. So why is this important for parents to know? Why should parents know about this information? How can it impact their families?

Well, mainly it's because we didn't know. And so it's a new paradigm. And the old way of thinking was really looking at this person arriving as a non person, as a little blob who had to develop in order to become human. And this new perspective really recognizes that there's a person, there's a Being there's an all there. And we go through these phases of prenatalhood, babyhood, toddlerhood, young childhood, childhood, teenagehood, adulthood, old age, hood. But we're always who we are. And what we now know about human development is those early stages we unfold in relationship. We don't arrive as humans with the capacity like a horse or a dog, where basically you are born and then within a few hours you have mobility and you're able to get your food if you need it. We are very, very immature. We're aware we're there. But because of the massive amounts of brain development that takes place in the first 20 years of our lives, we need others to help us and we definitely need help. We need others to provide nutrients and take care of us. But we also need others, specifically parents that we attach to and bond with to help us regulate our nervous system. So the little person arrives wholly there, fully there. But one of the main things they can't do is manage the ups and downs of their emotional system. Their brain is not wired for that. It's done in relationship. So that is really important information for parents to understand is that you're actually wiring, you're helping that little person wire their brain so that they can not just survive, but thrive in their environment and unfold into the maximum person they're here to be.

That's so awesome. And this essentially starts in the womb. Like you were saying, people thought that babies were impacted in the womb, but it's actually this research is showing that it is impacting in the womb.

Right? Like what we do. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. That this little being is absorbing information through mom's experiences and her hormones and her actions and the actions of the people around her. And there's a chemical soup that's communicating information to the baby and influencing the baby's development, the little person's development. So if mom's in a very, very, very stressful environment, that's communicating very different information to that very sensitive developing person than if mom is being well tended and cared for and supported and taken care of and is feeling lots and lots of love with little bits of stress. It's a very different experience and it has a different impact. I wouldn't say results because I think that it's not a one to one, it's not an if, then it's a wow. Okay, let's look at what that experience was and how that might have affected that person.

Right. And in the, there's the movie what Babies Want as well. They were talking about if There is stress in the womb that the limbic brain is formed. I don't know, something about survival. Can you just talk about the brain development and how a stressful situation in the womb can impact our brain in a negative way? Sure.

What we now know is that the brain doesn't come pre wired. It's waiting for the environment to really inform what it's going to need to survive. The brain is all about survival. It's not really about thinking and creating like most of us think. It's a survival, it's an organ of survival. And so if a baby's in the womb and that mom is experiencing lots and lots and lots of chronic stress, then that baby system is going to wire for a stressful environment. The system is waiting to know, okay, well what kind of system am I coming into? So the preliminary wiring that happens before birds is all about, is mainly about is the reptile brain, the brain stem and the part of the brain that is always surveying for danger or stress so it can react and keep the organism safe. And so if a mom is really stressed, then that part of the brain is wiring for stress and it's going to come out and be very sensitive to being on high alert for stress. So that child might have some sensory challenges or just be a more intense person. And that was a survival, that was for survival. So in a way they were doing what they needed to do. It's just unfortunate that the situation needed that because a child who's in a lower stress environment and again, where the mom is feeling tended and supported and cared for and she's doing things she loves and she's got lots of love flowing through her system and there's lots of oxytocin and real love hormones cruising through her body. That baby is not being exposed to as much stress and that brain is like, okay, well there's not a lot of stress. So let's put more of the energy towards toward building the other parts of the brain, the parts of the brain that are more interested in connection and the parts of the brain that will ultimately be more invested in thinking and creating and expression. Because we don't, we're not getting a lot of information that's saying, you know, set yourself up to be really, really aware of danger.

Right. That's amazing. It's amazing that we do.

Right? Yeah.

We impact our babies brains by what we're thinking and feeling. I just find that astonishing.

Yeah, exactly. I think it is too. And what I try to do with the pregnant parents that I work with is really have them focus less on minimizing the stress, because I think that can be stressful. But maximizing the joy and maximizing the love and being compassionate with themselves and recognizing that part of being pregnant is inherently stressful at times. But if you can go, oh, wow, I'm feeling stressed right now. Hey, I'm going to go for a walk because that's going to lower my stress. And I'm also going to smell some flowers and I'm also going to call a friend and I'm going to do what I need to do to move myself out of this ceiling so that I can get myself and the hormonal suit back to a more trusting life. Is good. Everything is cool out here. Way of running, right?

I love that. And for me, sometimes if I feel like a little stressed, I, like, have a conversation with the baby. I'm like, everything's okay. It's just your mom, you know, I'm working through it. I'm doing the best I can.

Absolutely.

Can you help us or maybe guide us on how we actually can start communicating with our babies and connecting with our babies in the womb and start developing that relationship?

Yeah, absolutely. So let me just frame the paradigm again. The old paradigm, there was a belief that nobody was home, nobody was really. There wasn't a person. So why would you actually relate to anybody when they were in the womb or even at birth? And that life started when the child could remember and make conversation and do all these things that are years down the road. And with all the information that we have now about what happens in the womb and our understanding of who we really are, these big beings in these little bodies, the new paradigm really looks at this person as a person always, that maybe they can't do the things we do, maybe they can't speak the language we speak. But they're very much communicating and they're very much listening, and they're very much taking in what's going on around them. And specifically in the womb, they want to know kind of what's going on. So if you believe that, if you hold that view, then it's real simple. Because basically, you just treat that person like you would treat another person, and you would maybe not focus all of your energy all day long, because they're probably sleeping a lot and they need space and they need lots of room to grow. But if you're going to the store, you might say, hey, sweetheart, we're going to get in the car and go to the store. Because they're going to feel some sort of shift. When you get in a car and your body starts moving in a different way than it has been by sitting in the house, or somebody comes to the door and you say, oh, hey, little one, my friend Joe is just arriving. And when Joe gets there, hey, Joe's here. And that's the voice you're hearing. So you're basically like the ambassador or the guide or the attache to this little person. And you just want to say things like exactly what you said. Wow, I just got scared. Or somebody just said something that made me feel really yucky. And you might be feeling that because I can sense my body feeling very different. We're safe. All's well. Just keep growing. I'll handle it. And by doing that, you're giving that sense of differentiation between what you're feeling and what that person in there might be feeling. Because right now, that person is just a part of you, and that person feels what you feel. But even just starting to make that differentiation, it's such a good skill to be cultivating even while your little person is in your womb.

And what an amazing practice. I mean, just being pregnant, for me, it's an amazing personal growth, transformational tool. I have to become aware of actually what I am feeling in order to communicate that to the baby.

Right? Amazing, right? You have your own little spiritual and emotional guru right there. And if you really choose to do it consciously, that's the bottom line, is that, yes, this person's coming for you to tend to them while they're in this little body. But even more than that, they're going to give you the ride of your life because you're going to have to be much more aware of your emotions, and you're going to have to be much more aware of how you're regulating your own nervous system and how you're managing your feelings and your thoughts and all this stuff. And that can be a heavy load. And I'm not saying it to put pressure. It's just. It's just the reality of if you really want to be a clear vessel for this person to come through, you have to do your best. It's not a perfect. There's no perfect. And I don't think any child would want perfect. But it's deciding that, wow, I'm going to become real present with myself. I'm going to be real present with how I'm feeling, and I'm going to be accepting of how I'm feeling, because I understand that when I accept what I'm feeling, it moves versus thinking. I should or shouldn't be feeling other ways. And I mean, not only are you going to feel better ultimately when you just let life flow and let the weather come and go and deal with the emotions as they do, but you're modeling really, really healthy emotional language to your child, which is one of the most important languages you have to teach them.

So great. And I love in your book what babies want. It is so great and amazing. Can you just share with us when a baby is bor. What are a baby's wants and needs and how do we tend to these? Sure.

Well, first and foremost, there are some sort of blueprint aspects of what a human. We've evolved over many, many, many hundreds of thousands of years. So there are certain physical things that a baby needs, like closeness. I mean, this person is emerging out of somebody's body. They've never been anywhere else. And so what's comfortable and familiar and safe is being close to where you were. So near the heart, near the warmth of the skin, having that containment of, okay, you're not capable of getting around yourself, so I'm going to keep you relatively close so that you know that you're safe. Because that's what their brain is wanting to know. Am I safe or am I not safe? Am I going to make it? Are there going to be people that are going to care for me so that I thrive and survive? And then beyond that, there's nutrients, of course, and warmth, but then there's the emotional level, which is respect and a sense of being seen and really honored and a reverence of, you've just arrived from the universe. You're a conscious being that just landed in this body. And it's my job to tend your needs. So I'm going to definitely take care of your bodily needs, but I also want to know your spiritual needs. And every single being is here for very, very different reasons. And so if you can just be wide awake. Like I tell the parents that I work with at all stages, but specifically the pregnant parents. You know, really the only four questions you need to be asking are, who are you? What are you here for? What do you need from us? And how can we help you? And then be wide open to listening to that person. So I'm real. You know, I have a strong belief that we need to not get stuck on dogma of parenting, but be wide open to trusting that person and being okay with not knowing for a little while. But if you keep asking those questions and you're going to get all the information that you need and it might be a little messy, but thinking, oh, well, I'm going to subscribe to this kind of parenting because that's what babies need. That might not be what that person needs.

Fascinating. I love that. Those questions are amazing.

What did you say?

Questions like, that really takes us out of our. Because I think we can get wrapped up in wanting to be the perfect parent and doing everything perfectly. And it takes it out into like, oh, what's the baby's experience? Who is this person?

Who is this person? Who are you? I mean, people arrive with totally different journeys to be had and you know, a parent. I think some of the, you know, in the past few, you know, past couple of decades, there's been this thrust toward, well, if you do it this way, whether it's the full on attachment parenting or full on parent led, somehow you're going to get it right. And I'm about, I want to blow up that continuum and get everybody off of it and say, you've got to know yourself and you've got to know the person and then the relationships that you're in with all the people in the family and you've got to make choices based on what you know. And that's a process. And we're all in the midst of that because I don't think most of us were raised with that sort of belief system that we actually know better than anybody else. I think there's a cult of the expert of when you go to the other person and they tell you how to do it and then you can do it right, and then they say, good job. But when it comes to humans, I think that you miss the boat when you subscribe to a philosophy or a dogma too heavily versus saying, okay, I'm going to pull a little from here because that fits with my gut. I'm going to try this because that seems to fit. But when this person arrives, I'm going to be wide open to the fact that they might want to be held all the time and they might not. And I'm going to listen and I'm going to experiment and I'm going to say, okay, wow, I'm going to hold you, but I'm going to put you down and I'm going to sit there and see what you do because I want to know who you are, not what I think you should want from me.

That's so amazing. I love that.

So, yeah, it's a very different approach. I know, I know. And the truth of the matter is because of the vulnerability of a little person when they arrive, most of them want to be close because I was new. If I arrived in a whole different land, a whole different, you know, a whole different situation, and I didn't know anybody or anything, I would want the people taking care of me pretty darn close for a while. But I also really love it if they communicated not just with their words, but with their nervous system that they trusted me to make, to experiment with new situations. And when they tried something, they were able to be relaxed enough to say, hey, let's see if you like being on the floor. I'm going to put you down there and see what happens. And then if I got upset after a couple seconds, they came over and they just said, I hear you. That's a new experience. And I get it. You're telling me that you need up. We'll try again tomorrow and see what happens.

Very cool. I love it too, because you just, in hearing that, I feel like you're giving the power or really empowering us as women and as parents to trust ourselves that it's not in a book. And it's like, how do you trust your instincts to really nurture this human being?

Absolutely. And I mean, this person is coming to you. They wouldn't be here if they didn't know that you were the parent that they needed to have. So how do you trust that and then be willing and open to being in the process of development with them. So this isn't just, I have to have it together and I have to know what I'm doing and I'm going to parent you. It's, oh, wow, you're coming into a relationship with me. I'm in a tiny. I'm in a bigger body. You're in a little body, but you might be 1,000 times wiser than me. So I've got to stay wide awake to who you are and what you're here for. And I'm going to just keep looking for that little sparkle, that little feeling of clink in my gut when I sense that something's right for you versus thinking that somehow somebody else will know what you both need for this relationship to really thrive.

And I love it too, because it's a relationship. It's a dynamic relationship that no book or expert is there we are hands on in it.

Totally. And I mean, it's like, I joke with people that, you know, you don't because a lot of people call their child the baby. And it really somehow hits me because you wouldn't call your partner the husband. And you Wouldn't read a book to say, okay, well, what do I do to be a good wife to the husband? You would be in relationship with that person. And granted, that person can talk and speak your language, but who cares? So can a baby. If you tune in and you listen, they're speaking a very clear language. And if you can slow yourself down enough to really, really listen, you're going to get everything you need. And on top of that, in order to slow yourself down enough, you have to be very mindful of how you're taking care of yourself. Because when you're caring for a tiny little person, they're needing your energy to grow. That's how they're going to grow. I mean, certainly they're needing your nutritional energy, but they're also needing your emotional energy. So if you are not taking in physical and emotional nutrients from somewhere else, you're going to get a little bit back from your baby. But that's not the place to get the bulk. You need it from your partnership, you need it from your friends, you need it from your exercise, you need it from your spiritual practices. Something that fills your cup or your battery so that your little person senses that you're present, and then that helps them stay relatively relaxed. And it also helps you stay in a part of your brain that has its most human thinking capacity. Plus, you're able to tune into your more intuitive intelligence in those states of. Well.

You were just saying earlier, too, about the nervous system and how important it is for us to stay relaxed and calm in many ways. And you have this great tool, calms. Can you tell us what CALMS is and how we can start implementing that?

Sure, absolutely. I'd love to. So, a little background. My friend Debbie Takikawa and I, she's a filmmaker who made the film what Babies Want, which. Which is fabulous. And she and I were talking one day about how awesome this information is. But we needed. We felt like it didn't. The film didn't give parents enough practical tools. And we both agreed that the work of Harvey Karp, he has a book called the Happiest Baby on the Block. We both agreed that the way he was giving parents very clear tools of helping to calm their little ones was useful. But we both felt like it was lacking in a couple of things. One was that we didn't sense that it really honored the baby as a person. It felt like the techniques were about doing to the baby as a baby, not as a person. And the second was that we didn't really hear them address the Issue of the parent's nervous system and how the parent, basically on the video, he's the physician and he's probably getting full night's sleep. So he would take the baby and do the little technique, the swaddling and the shushing and all this stuff. And it worked. And I thought, wow, that's really great. But I want to see a mom who hasn't slept in five hours, you know, more than two hour stretches for five weeks. Is that going to work for her? Especially if they're not really honoring that. That baby's communication is real communication. So that led us to create calm. So c. The first step, it has nothing to do with the baby. It's check in with yourself. So the baby starts to cry. And in our culture, what people typically do is they go, oh, no, no, no, shoo, shoo, shoo, shoo, you're fine, you're fine. Don't cry, don't cry, don't cry, you're okay, you're okay. And that is basically saying to a little person, you need to stop doing what you're doing because I'm anxious. Basically, the baby system is meant to alarm its caregivers. It's meant to sound the alarm of the person hearing. However, the alarm is not meant to continue going off. So when you check in, you notice where you're at and you might even say to yourself, whoa, my stomach is really tight and I'm starting to feel frustrated and I'm a little scared and I'm panicked. And the minute you start naming how you're feeling, you're going to start to slow yourself down because you're parenting yourself, you're with yourself, you're empathizing, you're acknowledging. So that's step one, check in with yourself. Step two, the a in calm is allow a breath. So that's doing some little tiny things. Could be as simple as a breath. It could be getting a drink of water, it could be jumping up and down. It could be something that brings you a little more in touch with yourself and a little more slow and present. And then that's two steps that you didn't even do to the baby so that you got yourself a little regulated because the baby is listening.

So.

Basically, well, let me go through the next step. The next step is l is listen to the baby. So instead of just going, oh, no, no, no, no, you're fine. When clearly the child is not fine because they're screaming or they're upset, you say, wow, I hear you, and that's the mirroring So L is listening, M is mirroring. And they go kind of hand in hand. It's hard to do one without the other. And you might say, wow, I see you're moving your arms all over the place. Or, wow, you're really telling me something. I'm listening. I hear you. And that's so much more kind and compassionate and respectful than just going, oh, no, no, you're okay, you're fine, you're fine, you're fine, we're going to be fine. It's just. That's not good information. If somebody walked into my office and they said, oh, I'm having this hard time with my child and I really need support, and I said, oh, no, you're fine, it's going to be fine. The kid's okay, you're fine, you're a great parent, they would walk out because that would be really, really uncomfortable. But if I said, oh, man, I get it, tell me all about it. You are having a hard time, they're going to totally relax and they're going to skip out of there because they felt. Felt. And that's what this does. And then the final step, the S is food. So a baby's not equipped in early life to get themselves back to balance without some help. But that's the last step of this protocol. It's check in with yourself and allow a breath so that you regulate yourself after probably being dysregulated because of the baby's alarm going off. And then by listening, mirroring, and giving some soothing, whether it's nursing or changing or bouncing or going outside. You know, it's all sorts of things that you do to help the child re regulate and get more calm. But it's so much more not just compassionate and helpful and respectful in the moment. But what you're doing by doing this protocol as a little person is you're helping their nervous system wire to be able to ultimately do it for themselves. So when they get older and they get upset instead of going, oh, I shouldn't feel this way. This is ridiculous. No, I'm fine, everything's fine. And then they're just brewing with all this emotion, which is not a bad thing, they're able to go, wow, I'm feeling a lot of feelings here. Wow, okay. Feelings are fine. I'm okay, I'm safe and okay. I need to go get a drink of water, because that's what's going to help me. So in a way, we're trying to give parents tools that they may or may not have gotten when they were little to help regulate their own nervous system so that they can be wiring their child's nervous system with a much healthier way of doing it.

Right. Love it, love it, love it. And it's such. I mean, I just keep coming back to, like, being a parent is probably one of the biggest spiritual practices ever. I mean, this is like all the spiritual practices, everything being present.

Right. And there's sleep deprivation involved, which just adds a whole other level of the whole thing. So, yeah, I mean, it is. If you can just make your own presence with yourself and acceptance of your emotional state and trusting that it's just. And it's going to pass. And you have to just keep getting resourced and being supported and then asking those four questions. Who are you? What do you need? What are you here for? How can we help? You're going to do great. I mean, really, I think if you made that your foundation, as opposed to I've got to do it this way or I have to do it this many hours or I have to make sure I'm not doing this or doing this, I think that will just create more tension and more disconnection and you miss out on the goodies. I mean, really, I love it when people can just kick back and spend the first three months laying around and holding that little person and getting to know them and just soaking up the amazing juice of the universe of love that they are bringing and that has complete availability to a presence that most people spend lifetimes trying to get back to.

Totally. And what do you think you were just saying, like, being with the baby and enjoying the baby and enjoying the process and not making it too complicated. Do you think that the calms and asking those four questions really helps us navigate early parenting? Because it seems like so many people or couples are overwhelmed in the early phases of parenting. It's just like, stress.

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, you're not. We don't live in a. I mean, you know, we live in a time where most women of, you know, 30s and 40s of having childbearing age, you know, they could have been in school and working and never have held an infant. So, you know, it's literally like somebody saying, okay, well, you've never been a lawyer, but now you're going to be a lawyer and a doctor and a nurse and a psychologist, and you're going to have to learn it on the job. And that's just a whole lot more stressful than if you had been mentored and you had been guided. And so, you know, I mean, my perfect world, people would go and live in communities where people are having babies and they're around small children. So you watched the arc of development long before you got to have one, so that you understood that when a little person does this particular little sound or this particular movement, you don't need to freak out about it. You just need to trust that that's what's happening and that this is, you know, this person grew inside of you without you having to do anything. I mean, people grow in extremely horrible situations and are born and nobody is saying, oh, I've got to set my alarm and wake up and make those eyes tomorrow, or, oh, I've got to kick on that hormone that's going to make sure the baby does this. It's not anything. We have to. In my opinion, what I do by educating parents and trying to give them as much good information and solid development that I can and a new lens and some tools to take care of themselves, it's basically so they can get out of their little people's way, that there's a whole lot like. I mean, there's a whole lot more letting go that needs to happen than doing to. So there's, you know, I guess what I'm trying to get people to do is get more in the being than the doing.

Mm. Yeah. The letting go. I know that. I noticed that as the biggest challenge of being pregnant. I'm like, oh, surrender and letting go and trusting the problem. I'm great at that.

No, I know. It's a practice. And your little person's coming to help you with this.

Totally.

It's all just right. And I think that when we are committed to growth and we're committed to healthy living and we're committed to education, in a way, it's easy to overthink this. And what I want to really encourage you and the people listening to do is to find a way to have really strong trust in the process of human development and to really favor the moment, because they're fleeting. And if you look across the board, we don't need to worry whether the child is going to crawl or not. They're probably going to crawl, and if they don't by a year and a half or two, then you check it out, or maybe you check it out a little sooner, but favor what the child is doing as opposed to what they're not doing. Our culture is very oriented to what's not working as opposed to all the amazing things that are working. And I feel like if I can encourage parents to really, really spend time every day just doing five or ten appreciations or gratitudes of how amazing your body is for growing a human. And then when that person is on the outside saying, every day, wow, you have eyes that work and your fingers are growing and your stomach digests food. That's incredible. We don't need to be worrying if they're on the chart or not. We don't look at flowers and go, oh my gosh, this one's blooming and that one's not. We better do something. It's like, no, just let everything unfold as it needs to. There's a wisdom to it that is so far beyond us that we don't need to be niggling with it. We're just wasting our own energy. We're just wasting our own, you know, it's taking us out of connection with what is and with what is. Is miraculous. Like, there's just no time or energy that we need to be spending on wishing for others.

Yeah. That's so great reminder. Such a great reminder for life and everything.

So thank you for that. You're welcome. You're welcome. It's a constant learning for me and I just, I learn from these little people every day. It's like, wow, you were there and now you're not there. And that's how it happens over and over and over again. And, you know, I wish, I tell people I wish I could give first time parents some sort of, you know, brain shift or pill or something that would allow them to be second time parents so that you trust the process a whole lot more than most first parents are able to.

Right?

Yeah.

I love that you said that. That's what, that. I was just talking to my husband about that. I'm like, you know, the first time around, it's so unknown. Like you have a human being growing inside of you. Like, okay, it's kicking. Is, is it kicking? Right? Is it doing.

You have.

It's totally new and. And it'd be amazing to kind of trusting it. I'm like, the next one you're gonna be like, oh, okay.

Of course.

That's how it goes.

Totally. Yeah. No, the first one is never not the first. They have to go through life being the first of everything and it's a real heavy load. But they signed on and that's the deal. So it's all perfect. But it's a very different experience to be a first time parent than it is to be a second or third or fourth or fifth or sixth. So, you know, you just have to ride it. But I do believe that, you know, I still recommend pregnant moms go out and find moms with babies and moms with toddlers and just be around what it really is. Because in most of human history, women were for better or worse at home helping with the children from the time they were children and they were holding babies and diapering babies and nourishing babies and caring for babies from the time they were little tiny children. And I think the fact that we've lost that is creating a lot of this anxiety that really not helpful to the parents or the children. So if you can find moms at parks and just ask some questions or just watch them, just notice and see, hey, can I hold your baby? Get to know some people that have newborns and go over and say, I know you might not want me touching, but can I just come look? Because I've never really hung out with a newborn. I want to see what a few hours in the life of a newborn looks like. Because think about it, any job you could ever have, if they give you a little bit of training ahead of time, you're going to be a lot more confident than just tossing you in there, right?

Yeah, totally. And this is like a living, moving, breathing being, not just like computer or something, right?

Right. And they're little and they're tiny and they're vulnerable but they're strong. And you have to just get in there, do it. And they want to feel like you are confident. I mean, imagine you arrive in a new country that you've never been to, something totally remote where they don't even speak your language. And the people caring for you, would you rather they were relaxed and taking care of themselves and looking at you with smiley eyes and going, we don't know what we're doing, but we sure do love you in their language, even if you don't know it. Versus with those scared eyes and a tentative energy and a nervous system that's saying we're freaking out. You would know it wasn't neat. You wouldn't need words to know that. You would know it.

Right?

Right.

And we think that babies don't pick up on that because they can't talk, which you talk about that in a lot of your work as well, that we think that they don't know that, but we know when somebody is fearful and anxious, like we can feel it. A baby is super sensitive.

Exactly. That's how we survive these tuned into our caregivers nervous system. They know what we're feeling more than we Do. Because we were told, no, no, no, you're fine, you're fine. Shu, shu, Shu, shh. Don't cry. When we were having these big emotions, so we were like, okay, I guess I shouldn't be feeling this, but I'm sure feeling it, that's a lot to understand. But when somebody says, wow, you're upset, I hear you. Your whole system calms down. Maybe not right away. Maybe you still need to cry. Maybe you cry louder because you finally get the thing, somebody gets it. But there's no value in, you're okay. I get where it comes from. I get what the person is trying to say is, you're safe, you're safe, I've got you. But I think those are better words to use than, you're okay. We're okay. Right?

So I'd love to hear more on just. I mean, we're talking about it now, but just you have so much wisdom on bonding and attachment. Can you just talk about why this is. What is bonding and attachment? And why this is important for us in the first few years and forever, I guess, with our children?

Yeah, yeah, it is all important. So, like I said before, the human arrives very immature physically. And unlike other animals, like reptiles, they just crack out of a shell and off they go. They're not looking for their moms. They don't need a thing. They're just going to fight for the food, no matter who it is. The mammals, they come out of the womb and they want to reconnect. They go find milk, but the mom needs to be closed for a very short amount of time. And then ultimately, that little creature could get up and move and get to the mom or get to the food source in a matter of hours or days, depending on the animal. Now, humans, because we're born premature, basically, I mean, we arrive because our heads get too big to come out. And really, we would be gestating in the womb a lot longer. But because of the neocortex and the way that our brains have evolved and the things that allow us to be very human, like language and creativity and all the cool stuff that we get to do as humans that other animals and mammals don't do, we need a very long external incubation, basically. So the way it works is that the baby emerges and the parent is filled with all sorts of hormones that will allow for the bonding. So they will feel love and want to take care of that baby and want to help that baby survive. That's how we survived in the first several weeks. And that might Kick on immediately. And it might not. But eventually, in my experience, if a mom and a child and a father are together, they're going to eventually bond. Now at about six weeks, that little person who's been there and is aware of what's going on, but is really just landing and trying to make sense of how to be in this body now that they're not in the womb at six weeks, there's a place in the brain that clicks and says, oh, okay, now we have to really start paying attention and getting connected and attaching to these people, because these are clearly the people that are going to care for you. And over that first year and the second year and then pretty much lifelong, there's a process of being dependent and getting cared for and having somebody really tend to your needs so that your body and your brain and your system can grow and thrive. And then there's. So you're in this process of dependence and then some independence, but mainly interdependence for a very long time time as humans. So really the purpose is to basically get with the people that you feel are going to keep you the safest. And then ultimately you have ideally long term relationships with them because you feel that deep connection. That happens sometimes and it doesn't happen sometimes. But my real intention is to really guide people in, to creating relationships early on that endure for a very, very, very long time and are as deep as a family relationship should be, or what I believe it should be, which is you came from these people. They're your kin, they're your genes. And in my ideal world, we would be wanting to be spending time with those people and wanting to be knowing each other. And I try to encourage parents to really take a lot of steps back and broaden the perspective that sure, you've got this little person in your life as a quote unquote child for about 15 years, but you're going to be, and they'll be your child, but they're going to be an adult. They're going to be in adulthood with you as an adult for potentially 30, 40, 50, maybe even 60 years. So my grandmother just died at 101. My mom is 70. So they were adults together for over 50 years. And that's a way longer time than you're ever with a babyhood person or a person in childhood or even adolescents. It's like that's just a blink. The goal is that you have this foundation of respect and boundaries and compassion and love beyond everything so that you all really endure in relationship, that you don't just raise, quote unquote, raise an obedient child who then goes, oh, I don't really want to be around these people because they don't really get me. And they were kind of not very nice, but rather you have a person that says, wow. My parents were very clear with their boundaries. They took massively great care of themselves. So I always felt like they were pretty relaxed and around me when they weren't. They did an amazing job of telling me how they were feeling and when they really blew it, which happens sometimes, they were really great about saying they were sorry and helping us understand what went on and how they could do it next time differently. And I learned so much through that and I respect them more than anybody.

Incredible. What a beautiful vision to really have that. I've never heard that before. That we have a very short period of time with our babies and then they're adults and we want to have relationships with them. We don't want to screw that up.

No, we really don't. And I think that unfortunately in our culture right now, because this information hasn't peaked out quite yet, it's new, it's exciting, it's going to make its way. It is making its way, but it's not what people. You know, everybody thinks I want a great relationship with my kids, but they're not really looking at how they're caring for how they're relating to that person in that little body. They think, well, I'll have a great relationship later. But they're not recognizing that what you do now is setting the stage for that. And it's not that you would treat them the way you would treat a 25 or 30 year old. You have to do certain things, but you have to understand what you need to do in relationship to that phase of development that's most, well, that's least interfering and most sustaining and supportive. And that doesn't mean permissive. That's not about saying, yes, we're best friends and we do everything together and I'm going to just let you do what you want. That's basically saying, okay, well, I'm in the role of parent right now because I'm in the bigger and I have certain, I have moved through development to a certain extent that I'm more aware of certain things. You're probably a lot more conscious and a lot more wide and you can guide me on presence and on love and on silliness and on being in the moment. And we're going to work our way into this adulthood relationship. And hopefully I'm going to do, I'm going to be the qualities, I'm going to live the qualities like respect and empathy and compassion and love and clarity and self care so that you both get a great experience with me and you absorb that and you have those values inside of you and you can't guarantee that, but why not live that way and then see what happens versus worrying. Am I doing it right? It's like, well just live how you would help your children with and see what happens.

And I love it too because it's like investing in your lifetime of your relationship with your child, the very early stages of having the child. I just think that's so empowering that what we do each time we listen to our child's needs and really communicate with them, we are impacting our relationship for 50 plus years.

Years.

That's just really inspiring.

Well, absolutely. And I've seen it. I'm not just saying this. It's not just theory. I've seen families that have really taken this approach and are really living it. And you know, it's not that everything is perfect. It's not about like if I do this then there's never a problem. There's plenty because people are humans and they're here to grow. And sometimes adversarial situations are what we need to express our fullest self. However, I do think that if parents understand this perspective, like I said, they create beliefs interference. There's enough in spiritual and consciousness evolution that's going to bump up against us in the world that why do we need to add to that in family life when I really believe family life should be the place where you go to rest and you go to fill up and you go to feel loved and you feel you get to just be your full self without having to navigate how do I want to present myself out here, which is what a lot of the world is.

So I'm curious how it sounds like this work and what you're talking about can really support us helping our children, helping our babies stay connected to who they really are. Like you were saying, they're born as this spirit, this divine spirit with their own essence. And I feel like so many times as parents, well intentioned, we kind of, you know, for lack of better words, kind of beat that out of them and then they have to go back and try to find it later in their life. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Sure. Well, that's kind of the real intention of my work. I'm not, you know, I mean, certainly I love, like, I have kind of, I give people just lots of great parenting information, lots of great development information. I love sharing that stuff. I love getting people sort of the foundation of, okay, here's this new way of thinking. Here's these tools, Go for it. And for some, that's more than enough. Then my next level up is I have a program called Evolve. And it's for people that are steeped in this paradigm. But recognizing that, oh, okay, well, I got wired in the old paradigm, so I'm excited about all these ideas, but my behaviors are not wired to do them. Like, we're the generation, that's the bridge. So it's a year long program where I'm helping people basically take this information, go a little bit deeper and then rewire their brain around family life and parenting and personhood and partnership and prosperity and how to really live a joyful, connected, love filled life. And then beyond that, then once you start going in that direction, then you got to realize, oh, wow, I got a lot of stuff when I was little that was great. But I also got a lot of stuff that's not serving me. And I definitely don't want to pass that on to my kid. So I've got to dig a little deeper and start examining what am I actually believing about things like money and work and sexuality and food and relationships and my emotions. Like there's all these big things that parents are inherently going to guide their children in that if you don't know what you got, you're going to pass on what you got until you shine the light on it and then decide what you're going to give. So that's sort of the third level. And then the fourth level is really for people that are wanting to go into high level mastery of personal expression and really go for it with their own personhood so that they are modeling just a full on healthy human for their little people.

That's really, really, really cool. So is this kind of the moving into kind of creating a healthy family and a slow family living movement? Can you talk about that? Those are related?

Absolutely. So in my experience, you know, Bernadette, my friend and I, who started slow family living, it wasn't about a dogma, it wasn't about, you know, this is slow. It's about helping people realize that your slow is what makes you feel most connected to yourself and your family. And that might be a totally different speed than somebody else's flow. And so the tagline is slow down, connect and enjoy. And in my when people do that when they slow themselves down, when they connect with themselves and their intuition and their heart and their gut, and then they really connect with who that person is, whether it's their partner or their child or their children. And then they make joy and fun and gratitude and love the intention. I have a firm, full on masterful belief that people make extraordinarily good decisions from there. Like, I don't think they need anybody telling them how to do it. It's just getting them to slow down enough to listen to what they know and listening to their children and trusting that they're not going to miss something, they're not going to be left behind. Our culture is driven by consumerism, and a lot of our products are driven to get people to be fearful. And so when parents embark on this journey, there's a lot of, oh, my gosh, am I going to mess up my kid? Am I going to fall behind? If they're not in lessons, it's like, well, slow down and really listen. Like, you don't have to put a kid in a lesson that they don't necessarily. You can expose them to stuff. But if you want your kid to play soccer, spend three years in the yard playing soccer and see if your kid even likes it before you put them on a team where they're cooking the ball, they're kicking the ball every five minutes and a bored out of their mind, and then they don't even like soccer. Like, give your kid real experiences before you say, hey, you seem like you're really into this. Let's go and find somebody that can help us get even more into it.

And it's trusting the child's kind of development as well. Not forcing or manipulating or.

Totally. Totally, of course. And, you know, realizing that some people are here to do their thing, you know, like, I arrived with my thing and I love babies and children and talking about this stuff from the time I was a little child and there was no stopping me. Like, there was nobody going to get in my way. And I just got lucky that my thing was something that other people would let me do when I was little. But there's lots of things that people are here to do that people don't either pick up on because they're not tuned in and they think every child needs a broad education, or they're just not exposed to it early on. But I mean, really, most people find their thing ultimately. I mean, maybe not, but maybe most people are going to sink in and go, But I mean, even that idea that if you model to your Child, you're here to do something. I'm going to help you find it. And I'm going to really pay attention to when it seems like you're sparking on something.

And that comes back to what you were saying, too, that the slow, finding our slow, that we can actually become aware of what our child wants to do.

Totally. Yeah. I mean, if you're running from thing to thing to thing to thing, and your kid is melting down because it's just too overwhelming, and their brain is frisking because it's too much information and they're never getting the integration time, it's going to be really hard to see what's the spark, what's the thing that really enlivens them. So everybody just needs to slow it down.

I agree. I love this. I personally love this because my slow is a lot slower than the modern world, and it's taken me a while to be cool with it. I used to feel bad or like I'm wimpy, and I'm like, no, I just need more time, like you said, to let it integrate, and it's just slower. So I love that you're doing this, and I think all of us need that. Like you said, there's different slows for all of us, and some people have more, but it's so, so powerful for all of us.

Totally. I agree. Yeah. And children, you know, children need a slower pace. Not everyone, some of them like to go fast. But that integration time, that being time, is so essential that we have to move back toward that and trust it and not think that more is better. But, you know, really, I have that. I did a TED talk in Austin, and it was called the Power of the Pause. And it was all about the importance of slowing down and making space for the pause where you integrate. And the last line was, do less, be more.

Powerful.

Yeah. So there you have it.

That's so great. So I have one more question. What would you say that our role is as parents? Like, if you. Yeah, just what is our role for parents? And how do we create a family dynamic that works for everyone?

Well, what's the role? The role is to be taking really good care of yourself so that you're present with yourself and your own emotions and your own needs so that you can be present with this person who's arriving, and you really orient toward that idea of, okay, you're a being. You're a person who's arriving, and you're going to go through all of these phases of development. And I need to understand these phases of development. So I don't think that something you're doing in this phase is wrong or not. Okay. Because if you did it in another phase, it would look really crazy. I want to really encourage people to educate themselves about babyhood, toddlerhood, and like, what is a one year old typically doing what is a two year old? And not to get hung on that, but also to recognize there are certain arcs of development that are very common for different ages. So holding paradox. I talk about that a lot. Holding that you're very important to this little being in their development, but you're also just along for the ride and they're actually a little bit more important to your development. And both are true that they are here to do their thing. And a parent is in a constant tension of being there, but then also hanging back. So it's about presence and the place in the middle, which is presence, which is being in the moment, is where you can kind of hang. And then. What was the other question?

Just creating a family dynamic that works for everyone, for parents, for children, for everyone as a team.

Yeah. So my experience of that is when people are being extremely honest with themselves and their needs, specifically the parents, and the parents recognize that they're the regulator, at least in the beginning of the relationship. So that not not letting their personhood, not ignoring their personal needs, and maybe those are going to be fed differently than they were before a child, but not abandoned, which can be easy to do because you get in the mode of being a parent and it's easy to say everybody else first, but that doesn't work. Not abandoning the coupleship, making sure the partnership is still fed and nurtured and the bank account gets. The emotional banking account of the relationship gets invested in with lots of appreciation and lots of acknowledgments and lots of, hey, it used to be this way and now it's this way, but I'm still here for you and I love you. And then, you know, constantly, as Bernadette says, constantly be asking yourself and everybody, is this working for us? And if it is, great, and if it's not, change it.

That's so great. I love that. Is it working for us and then being willing to change it, but not being.

Yeah, right. Doing the experiment. Okay, we are not loving how we are doing sleep right now. Okay, so we are going to need to shift that. But let's experiment. Let's not read every book and panic and call every expert. It's like, let's just slow down. Let's Figure out what we need, let's figure out where we are in development and then we'll move forward with a plan and maybe we get some support around that, but we're going to get it from somebody who wants to support us, not tell us what to do.

That's so amazing that you said that too, because I think, as we've talked about before, being perfect, you know, that if we somehow plan A was not working, sleeping is not working, then we screwed up and like, oh, no.

Right. Yeah. I want people to definitely let that go because there's no grades for this. It's a long term, long range marathon and you don't know how you're doing in the midst of it. So you might as well try to have as much fun as possible, be kind to each other, try to love each other, try to let go of some of the craziness that you feel and get good support so that you can stay full and really meet the moment in the most present way as possible. Awesome.

Love it, love it, love it. Well, thank you so much for sharing too.

What a blast. Thank you. That was so much fun. You got an earful, that's for sure.

Oh my gosh, it's so great. I love it. I can't wait to call my husband and tell him all that I learned.

Oh, I love it.

That's great. Can you share with us where people can find out about you and your programs and books and everything?

Absolutely, yeah. So you can find me on my website. It's Carrie Conti. C-A R R I E C O N T E-Y.com and if you've heard this and you want to hear my tips for self care, shoot me an email. Sign up for my mailing list because I've got some goodies that you'll receive just for signing up. But go ahead and shoot me an email carriearyconti.com and say please send self care list and I'll send that to you. And then I'm also on Facebook, It's Carrie Conti, Ph.D. and I post a lot of goodies up there. And then I'm on Twitter also arricanti PhD and I think that's probably it. Oh, and then check out Slow Family Living, which is the website that Bernadette really tends to. But that's something we started together.

Fantastic.

Great, great, great.

Thank you for the self care gift. That was very sweet.

Sure. Totally love it.

Yes. And thanks again. Really, really appreciate it. And it was very inspiring for me and I know it's going to help a lot of other parents as well. So thank you. Thank you.

You're very welcome. It was a pleasure. Thank you, Alexandra. Good luck. Have fun with your little person. Your new favorite person is arriving right as we speak. I know. Yay, Carrie.

Totally, totally, totally. All right. Awesome. Have a wonderful day.

Thank you. You, too. Bye.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mama Goddess. Sending you lots of love and blessings. If you'd like to connect more, go to mamagoddess.com until next time. Keep rocking it and have an awesome.