The Creativity Cure with Nadine Artemis

Welcome to Mama Goddess. I'm your host, Alexandra J. Johnson. This podcast is all about rocking your goddess life, creating vibrant health and celebrating motherhood and family life. It's about living an authentically awesome life. Let's have some fun. Hello and welcome. I'm Alexandra J. Johnson and today we have a wonderful, inspiring guest, Kerri Barron. She is a board certified psychiatrist, a psychoanalyst, and she has been published in peer reviewed journals and won several academic awards and presented original works related to creativity and self expression. She is also the co author of the Creativity Cure, A Do It Yourself Prescription for Happiness and she's also one of our professors at the Academy and I've watched a lot of her classes and I just, I love her, I love her wisdom and I think it's so, so important for the modern age. So welcome. Carrie.

Hi, Alessandra. How are you doing?

I'm great, thank you. It's so wonderful to chat with you. I'm loving your book. I'm not all the way through it, but I'm loving it. It's so, so fantastic. So I want to start off with like, what is the work that you do, you know, as a psychoanalyst and psychiatrist? Like what, what does that mean?

So I do a few things. I see people privately for consultations and I've run workshops. I run workshops on creativity. I did one on creativity and spirituality and I do a lot of blogging because I have found that that's a really great way to communic. At first I was quite skittish about it and I was uncomfortable with the medium. But what I have really discovered is that it's really freeing for people when you put some ideas out there and you try to be useful and you try to be helpful and concise so it doesn't take too much time for them to read it. But you hit something that is very important to them or that they're worried about, that they're ashamed of, that they're afraid to talk about. It's an opportunity for people to express themselves anonymously and kind of work with themselves as they think about the ideas. And I'm just grateful that you know that I can be part of a number of people who are doing that because, you know, the whole mission really is just to help people live better, happier lives.

That's great. And so what about like, I know a lot of your work is like getting into the unconscious mind. So what is the unconscious mind like? How do we dive into those deeper layers of ourself and find inspiration and healing and all the good things and maybe not so good things that are there.

It's a great question. I think the unconscious is really fascinating, and I think, in a nutshell, really what it is, it's almost where your truth lies within yourself. It's your deepest layer of self. It's your passions, your fears, your instincts, perhaps even some of the things that define you. It can contain some of your history, maybe some of the things that happened to you that you've blocked out or that you've repressed. So it's a really valuable tool. You know, Freud said dreams are the royal road to the unconscious. So there was a lot of talk. And I think some people do think this still, that dreams can tell us a lot about where we're really at, what we're really thinking. The imagery in dreams does not always appear to be what it seems. So you have to kind of interpret it with the person that you're working with and together, try to understand it. You know, what does that make you think of? How does that link up with. You know, how does that dream link up with what you're worried about right now in your life, your work or relationship and so forth? So it's very rich material. One of the things that my husband and I cover in the book the Creativity Cure, is ways to get into that place, into your unconscious. And so I'm sure you have. And I'm sure people who are listening have been washing the dishes, and your mind just floats away and there's kind of wispy things going through it. I mean, it could be a fantasy or a memory or a dream. Also, when you're running or you're walking, the physical movement, the rhythm of it, it kind of lets your mind move into a deeper place. And then you might have some peacefulness and convening with yourself, and you might understand some things about yourself or clear up some questions that you might have. All of that is because your truth is more able to come to you, and that's why it's such a great thing. And it's really. It's useful. It's useful.

Very cool. So I'm curious on the dreams. You know, we obviously all have dreams. And do you focus on. You know, I think a lot of us wake up and we're like, what the heck was that? So. And I've heard before people will say, focus. Focus on, like, the feelings and, like, the emotions. Like, how do we. How do we. I know this is a big topic, but how do we start interpreting our dreams more? Do we Focus on, like. We don't focus on the people and, like, the stuff. Yeah, give us. Give us, like, a little snapshot of how to interpret.

So I think you're right in pretty much everything you said. I think what it is, is one very simple technique is if you're very interested in your dreams, you can roll out before you get out of bed, keep a pen and paper next to the bed, and then just write your dream while you're almost still in that sleepy place. And if you have time, it only takes three minutes, five minutes, whatever. Right? Just write it and then let your mind go and see what it makes you think of. See where you go with it. I mean, you're not insane if it doesn't make any sense. I mean, it's what we call free association. And you kind of want that. You want it to be a little bit irrational, right? And so you have to just kind of. It's a way of going to a deeper place with yourself. And if you have lifted that material, touched that material, worked with it, things might start to make sense to you during the day. Things might become more clear for you during the day because you have allowed it to have voice. And then when it was out, when it started to come out in the morning, you sort of caught it and let it be there and put it on the page. So. So now you've brought it up a little bit, and there's no. You know, people used to say that there are perhaps some things that are symbols in dreams, but we can't be very rigid about assuming that the symbol is the same for everybody. And what, you know, what a fork means for this person might be very different from what a fork means for that person, depending on what their history is. So it's really fun. Not fun, but, I mean, it's intellectually fun to play with it. But it's also a wonderful way of helping somebody get to the bottom of something and find great relief. It can really work in that way. And that's a very. That's moving. I mean, it's. When that happens.

And do you recommend, like, when you go to sleep to kind of. If you're, like, working through something, can you, like, do a prayer or an invitation or something to, like, have insight, to kind of beckon it out?

Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I think it's a matter of letting, not doing. But I like what you're saying in terms of calming the self, because that's a really thing too. People have different ways of doing that. You know, some people were raised to count their blessings before they go to sleep. You know, some people do a prayer. Some people. Positive psychology, which is a movement that started, I don't know, over a decade ago, but it's. It's about thinking about what you're grateful for and making a list of that, either physically or mentally in your mind before you go to. To sleep. It's a way of bringing closure to the day and bringing yourself down to a softer, quieter place and, you know, kind of like tying a ribbon around it and saying, okay, this went well, maybe this didn't go well, but here are the good things and let me have some rest now and go into a deeper place so that I'm more prepared for the good things and the not so good things that might come Also, just on the matter. I know we're all over the place with this, but on the matter of. I think this is something I'm going to be researching soon because I'm very interested in it. Sleep is really important. A lot of things are misdiagnosed. Sleep deprivation can actually disguise as depression, anxiety, and attention deficit disorder. So it's really important to try to get as much sleep as you need.

Amen.

Yeah.

Big sleeper.

Yeah.

I mean, it's really funny and I appreciate you saying that because I think it's so important for especially the modern woman now. There's so many things to do, and I know a lot of my friends and people that I work with are staying up, you know, late, trying to get things done, and there's. They're skimping on their sleep. And I personally am like, I don't know how you do that, because I need eight hours. Otherwise I don't feel connected to my truth. I'm just. Yeah, it's not a happy place. Right, right.

And I think there was a period of time when people were sort of pressured to go without sleep. You know, it was kind of the thing to do, or, you know, you're a stronger person or a better person can go without sleep, but it's kind of dangerous, actually, so we need to be careful about that.

Sleep, sleep, women sleep. And my sleep has been messed up for two years. So I appreciate sleep even more having a bab.

But it's hard. It's hard when you have young children, for sure. It's really hard.

Nothing's really important, though. Like, I thought, you know, if you're gonna actually be a really great mom, you gotta. You gotta make the time for the sleep.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Okay, so I'm curious, I am curious about this unconscious mind more of like it can talk to us while we sleep. But is like, is the unconscious like the spirit realm? Is it, you know, would that be like spirit talking to you or our highest self? Or is it.

Uh huh. Well, I would say that there might be a connection there because I mean, it has to do with truth. Right. But when I think about spirituality, I think a lot more about sort of faith and calm. Is there a place that you can go, physical place, you know, whether it's a rock or the woods or a church or a synagogue, Is there a place where you, or library, you know, where you can go where you feel that you're convening with something higher? And what does that mean for you? And what mental state does that put you in? And it's important to be aware of that because that's a very therapeutic understanding. You know, what are the choices that we make in our daily lives that lead us to a better, stronger place? It's not egocentric or selfish because wellness, in my view, we work very hard to make individuals well because then they're generative and they can contribute and take better care of other people. So it's good to make yourself a strong tool in that way. But I was once asked what's similar about artistic experience and spiritual experience. And I think that the thing that ties them together, at least for me, is that you're in a very deep, quiet space where you can hear. You can hear things from within, or maybe you can hear whatever spiritual being you connect to. You can hear the voice of that being. And it can be very comforting and help with a lot of, with agonies or decisions or even happiness, you know, feeling validation of what you're doing.

I love that. And it's like that takes time and patience and intention to create that space to actually hear.

Right, right, right. It does. But I think again, it's like the sleep thing, you know, we feel guilty if we take that time. We feel like we're wasting time. We feel like we're taking time away from other people. And it used to be, culturally, I think it's very interesting because we used to build these things in without thought. I mean, people had Friday night Shabbos or they had Sunday rest, or they went to church on Sunday or whatever it was that sort of honoring the quiet, the faith, the letting and the respect for whatever part of yourself or this higher being you need to have, it was built into society, but now we don't have it. So much anymore. You know, I was not raised in a religious household, by the way. I mean, this was something that I came to later. But I think it can be very important for people to have to carve it out in some way. And not guilty about doing that.

I love that, but not guilty. And for me, personally, I'm introverted. I have extroverted, but I lean towards introversion. And it's. I've needed a lot of this time in the last, like, 15 years of being on my journey of, like, just being with myself and reorganizing myself and just. I need that time. And I definitely struggled with, like, feeling guilty of, like, what am I doing? I'm journaling and I'm reading and I've meditated. Like, do something else.

But it leads you to figure out what that something else is.

Totally.

You know, now you're doing this. You're having voice and helping other people sort of learn about themselves. So that's a gift that you're giving.

You know, so, yeah, I love that. I love that. Because I think a lot of. I know a lot of women have that too, of, like, the guilt of, like, taking time for themselves. And it's like, it's vital. If we're gonna be plugged into this source or the spirit, it's. We have to have that alone time or that silence to hear. I love that. That was beautiful, what you said.

Oh, thanks. But, you know, also, too, I think there's a lot. It's interesting because you've identified as an introvert and, you know, think a lot of people are afraid of solitude. Like, some people find great comfort in solitude and, you know, thinking. Or some people just really like to be alone, and some people are really afraid of it. And, you know, there's a difference between solitude and loneliness. Right. Solitude can be a very rich experience. You can be, you know, sort of very peopled with, you know, memories and relationships within you. And that can be very, you know, not lonely at all.

Right.

So I think if people don't have to fear it so much, they can find a lot in it.

So what would you recommend if somebody was fearing it? Like, if they felt more comfortable, extroverted, or they felt more being around people and wanted to start carving out some more time. But they're like, what the heck do I do in this time? What do you recommend that they do?

Well, you can read about it and understand it, because intellectually, if you understand it, that the boredom can lead to certain things. It's kind of being patient and waiting right But I also want to say it's not a prescription. I mean, we all, you know, some people are very far on the side of introverts. Some people are very far on the side of extrovert. A lot of us are a mix. And sometimes if we go into a part of ourselves that doesn't feel as comfortable. Right. Like, if you see yourself as an extrovert, you like to be around people all the time. You feel very lonely if you're not with other people. But you might try it on for a little while. Just be. Notice. Notice. Observe what happens to you. You don't have to keep doing it, but you might find that you like it. There's no right or wrong.

Yeah, we all have to find our own balance. Right? I mean, that's like the whole journey of finding our truth. Of I've been experimenting of like, oh, this much outward time feels good. Oh, that was too much. You know, like it's always kind of a dance of what's going to work for us and make us feel happy and connected.

Exactly. You know, I think, and I've said this a lot and I've written it a lot, but I'll just repeat it, you know, it's everywhere. Shakespeare. To thine own self be true. You know, the truth shall set you free. And your mother, you know, saying to you, be yourself. I mean, there really is self. Knowledge is a very powerful tool.

Amen. Amen. Okay, so, you know, you wrote a book on creativity. I love the title too. Creativity cure brilliance. And what does creativity mean for you? Like what? What's the definition of creativity, if there is one?

Oh, no, you asked that question. I actually love that question. But it is hard to answer because. Well, let me, let me. It's not really. It's a mindset. In one word, it is a mindset. Why is it a mindset? I think a lot of people think that being creative means making a product. But products can be intangible. So your product may be bringing a room to life, creating, you know, throwing a wonderful party where people really connect to each other. That can be a form of creativity. It can be the way that you plant a garden, it can be the way that you cook or how you put things together. Or it can be making a painting or a song or, you know, the traditional description of art, the definition of art. But I think what it really means is a certain flexibility in your mind. It's being receptive. That's what I mean by mindset. It means being open to things, to yourself in certain Ways that maybe you're gonna put odd combinations together. I was in a restaurant last night and, you know, whatever. I mean, I had some tomatoes with a baked. With basil, like a basil soupy thing on it, right? And I thought to myself, this is great. You know, I never would have thought of putting a pesto sauce on just tomatoes, right? It was an innovative chef. And, you know, there's a lot of examples of that. You know, I went to somebody's house and he put hard boiled eggs on the grill. And I was kind of like, wow, you know, that's very creative. So I just think it's playfulness in your world and it's using what's there, it's being resourceful about what's there. You don't have to go out, you know, to Michael's, although Michael's is a great store. But to buy, you know, paper and pens and stickers and put them on a page, right? Probably things in your house, in your garage, in your yard, you know, that can create a rich experience, depending on how you work with them or play with them, right? About having a rich internal experience.

And I mean, we are all obviously creative, right? Do you think that we discount or diminish or don't even see some of the areas that we're actually creative? Like, do you think we miss that sometimes?

Yes, yes, I think actually I was just. I'm writing about this today in terms of a blog on education, which I'm a little bit struggling with. But yes, I think a lot of times, because we're raised in a certain culture with certain influences, we have no idea that we can do this other thing. And that's why it's very important to pay attention to your dreams. The wisps of things that go through your mind, the free associations, because they're clues, right? They're clues. Well, I'm a banker, but maybe, you know, there's a part of me that really needs to be playing the guitar. And I feel silly because, you know, I'm 36 and even know how to play the guitar. But there may be some very powerful instinctive need to do that. So maybe you should just pay attention and you don't have to change careers, but you can carve out whatever, a few hours, an hour a week to connect with that thing and be very, very tolerant of your imperfections. That's another thing. People might have creative ability or instinct, but they're very impatient with the process of learning. So you've got to get very familiar with something to actually be able to invent. Right. But you can still enjoy the process of learning. And who knows? You know, you might make a very important contribution in that field. So I think it's, you know, we should be very open to how we can change. And perhaps we're not who we thought we were and all that. Yeah.

And then just the openness, right? Like the openness for seeing what wants to come through or where we want to. Our creativity wants to be expressed. Like, we don't know, right?

We don't know. But sometimes we do know because. And we might be a little ashamed. Like, you know, I really want to. I don't know. I don't want to work, you know, on Wall Street. I want to actually stay home and decorate my house. Right. But I'm being pressured, you know, to do X Y. So, you know, sometimes there are these ways in which we shut it out because we think it's wrong. But, you know, it's that we need to pay attention.

I think sometimes we can make things wrong. I know. I was just thinking about this. I can make things that I want to wrong just in general, like, oh, like, that's really easy for me and that's fun and I feel really creative and live. But I should be doing something else, you know, like that. Those kind of stories, I think a lot of us have totally.

It's what we call, you know, in psychoanalysis, a harsh super ego. Which really just means that kind of mean, critical voice to yourself, the authority inside that tells you, you know, no, no, no, no. You should, should, should. And sometimes that's actually good. Like you need a disciplinarian within so that, you know, you don't commit crimes and do terrible things to other people. You need a conscience. But sometimes we're much harder on ourselves than we really should be or need to be. It's not that useful when you're too critical. It's really. It's not productive.

No.

So that's one of the things we try to work on. You know, how is somebody not critical enough? Or how is somebody too critical? You know, so, right, you got the.

What is it? The rivers, you got the banks. So you gotta, you know, kind of manage the chaos, but you can't go too chaotic. Like, there's like that dance.

Yeah, absolutely. The balance, like you said. For sure.

Interesting. So I'm interested in this inner critic, you know, because we all. I mean, maybe some women don't have it, but every woman that I've talked to has a pretty strong criticism. Critic. And I think that can Stop us from actually even being willing to playfully explore something like we think that we need to. If we can't do it like right and perfect from the get go, then why even do it? Right, Right.

Right. Yeah, I think that's a really important point. So the way I like to think about it is there's a rational critic in you and there's an irrational critic in you. It's kind of linked to what we were talking about before. Sometimes your critic is going to help you do a better job. So if you're writing and you have a lot of grammatical mistakes or the sentences don't flow or it's not going to make sense to somebody reading it, then you need to know that and you need to perhaps write it and rewrite it, whatever twice or eight times or whatever. But actually that kind of improvement can be pleasurable. It's not a negative experience to go back and face it and work with it. It can be actually euphoric for people to be very much working with something that's important to them and making it better and better. So that's. The rational critic is when you're seeing what's not working and you're willing to try to make it better. We want that, we want that with the food we make for our families and, you know, how we treat other people and everything. But sometimes you will think you're a terrible person or that you've done something wrong or have terrible shame or guilt when you really shouldn't. And that's a very.

When you shouldn't, you said, and that.

Is a very painful place to be in. That is really. Because that can affect self esteem and that can affect, you know, showing up for things and that can affect, you know, just a lot of the way we live. So it's really important to try to understand if you, you may not be able to change it just by thinking about it. You may have to talk to somebody about it or write about it. I think writing is great. Just you can talk to yourself about it. But it's good to at least know. Or if you suspect that you're, you have an irrational critic, that's not being fair to you.

Right.

And who you are.

Right. That's, that's awesome. Yeah. Because I think we all know that we're like, okay, that's a little too harsh. But yet still sometimes we listen to it. And like you said, it doesn't, it doesn't help anything to listen to the irrational one. But I love that you said that. We all do. I was Thinking about this the other day of, like, sometimes my inner critic does have, like. I like that there's a rational one that says, okay, you could refine this a little bit more and kind of guides you and helps you excel and helps you grow and expand, but it's not like beating you.

Right. Because if it were be. If it's too harsh, then you don't want to do it.

Right.

It's kind of like having a good teacher. Right. A good teacher is able to critique but not criticize, you know, good teach. Some teachers will shut kids down. I mean, I've heard this story, you know, people being many times of people being humiliated in classes as children or, you know, and then they withdraw. But then there are those people who have very beloved teachers who somehow were able to get across. Well, you know, you're not doing this so well, but wow, aren't you confidence, you know, you're great in this other way, or you're really good in this other way and work on it and, you know, growth. It's about growth. Some people help you grow, some people don't.

Right. Yeah, for sure. And I like that you're saying too, like, enjoying the process.

Yeah.

Like, because I think we can, you know, like, oh, I'm just gonna, like, you know, just grit it out and I'm just gonna, you know, force it, and then when it's done, I'll be happy. And it's like, wait, just enjoy the process.

Right.

That's been a process for me.

Right. Right. But I will say, I think what you're saying is really true, but then again, it's hard because sometimes, if there's something you really love, you really do have to go through some maybe terrible part of it to get to the other side. But if you're staying in something that is really not working for you, maybe you need to have a different process, doing something else.

And then doing that work of going in, as you were saying, going in and figuring out what is your truth.

Right.

Like, we all know, like, especially if we, like, get in that silence or that solitude. We know. Right?

Yeah. You hear?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then it's being willing to actually take the steps that's necessary to change the job or relationship or whatever, which is where you come in to support.

People, to help people to make those changes. I can't remember the quote exactly, but it was Goethe, and he said something about, you know, that first step is bold. Or it's. And I think Eudora Welty said all. All great daring begins within, you know, but taking that first step is actually a very brave thing to do, you know, to change and. Because the first step is the hardest, you know, and then it can be a tiny step, you know, but then mentally you've done it. So you can start taking the next and the next.

Right. It's great. I love that. The baby steps.

Yeah.

Just like slowly moving forward. I think sometimes in our culture we have this idea that it needs to be some big, like, hurrah. Like, you need to transform your whole life. You need to quit the job now. Like, everything is just like fast and instant and it's, you know, like you're saying patience and step by step and like, really honoring the process.

Right, Right. Yeah. I think people fear a process. They think something's wrong if they're in a process. If they're flawed or learning or stumbling. There's a lot of shame. This is another thing that I'm very interested in. I've run into people in my life and in my practice who really had a lot of experiences of shame in learning. Like, they're ashamed if they don't know something. They're supposed to know that. Right. And because of that, they don't want to put themselves in a position where they can learn because then they would have to reveal that they don't know. And I think it's really important to embrace all that, you know, the imperfection, the stumbling, the. I don't know. I mean, who cares, you know? You know, it's all about interest anyway. So. Yeah, I mean, I think it's. Again, it gets back to that critic and self acceptance and self knowledge and just kind of letting yourself learn.

Yeah, I used to have a lot of shame. Like, I really excelled in sports and I got A's and B's in school, but I really, I hated it. Like, I was just talking to my husband last night. He excelled in school, and so sports, he kind of hid. So we kind of have flip stories. But I was just feeling into that of the shame of, like, I didn't want to raise my hand. I, you know, I just didn't. I didn't want to look stupid. Like, I had all of that stuff and I've been working over the years and like, grammar and just different stuff that I've had come up. And it's. It is. It's. It feels very. It can feel intense and you can want to hide and be like, not put yourself out there. And I've worked on over the years. I'm like, I don't know. Oh, I Should know that. Sorry, I don't know it. Oh, I spelled that wrong. Okay, whatever. Not a big deal, right?

Right, Exactly. That's good. I mean, that's good if you got to that place, because I think a lot that's helpful for other people, because I think that attitude is what allows you to keep taking things in and.

Having a sense of humor. I mean, I try to have a sense of humor. Like, it's one of my strengths is having playfulness and humor. So when the humor goes, I know that there's something I need to lighten it up or something, but it's good.

I know there are people who talk about that. There's laughter cures, actually. You know, that laughing is actually good for physiology. I can't remember what the study was. There's something about laughing. I know.

Wouldn't it be great, though, if, like, that was what most of us learned? Like, oh, you messed up. Like, you just laugh versus, like, hide and feel shame and, like, hate yourself, and I'm never gonna put myself out there again. That would be awesome.

Yeah. But also, I think some people come from backgrounds, you know, where they were shamed for not knowing. And so, you know, a lot of what we do in therapy, too, is to create what we call, you know, to turn those inner voices around, like those pieces of parents or teachers or whatever, whoever's in you that is criticizing you. We try to turn them into different characters, you know, so that there's someone who's supporting you and not making you feel ashamed, you know, in the internal life. So I don't know if that makes sense, but, you know, are you kind.

Of rewriting the story Script?

Exactly. Rewrite your script. My daughter has a T shirt that says, rewrite your script.

That is awesome. So we can remember it in a certain way, but you kind of go in and rewrite it.

Yeah, kind of the therapy is sort of about. They use. Someone calls it. Some people call it a corrective emotional experience, you know, that. That, you know, other people think that's not a good way to talk about therapy. But I like that, actually, because I think, why not? Right? Why not just try to tweak it and, you know, try to move some things around and get certain voices out of there and get other voices in there and, you know, make life easier.

Right. It's all kind of our perception, too. Right. Like what? Our memory. Yeah. I'm curious on your thoughts, because we have all these memories of what actually happened, and did they actually happen is kind of questionable. Right. Like, we have the stories of what actually happened. But it's kind of made up anyways through our lens, right?

No, that's totally true. So, you know, we have something called screen memories and we have something that we call transference, which is what you're just what you're describing as the lens. Right. It's kind of the way we interpret or remember or how we put together what went before. And obviously people might have different versions of, you know, that objective reality of what happened in 1965 or, you know, in the living room, you know, whatever the Beatles were playing or something, you know, you know, it just. So. Yeah, but it's okay. You just work with whatever is there. Because the bottom line is what are your emotions with regard to those memories? And if they're tortures for you, then we need to do something to change that.

And then so because there are, I mean, most people have some sort of traumatic. I don't. That's. Maybe I'm generalizing a little bit too much. But a lot of people have, you know, a traumatic thing that they remember where literally like they feel this is the way that they are because this happened. So what would you recommend on, other than coming to see you for therapy? What are some things that they can kind of work with that more?

Yeah, yeah, that's a really. I think that's really important. You know, I have treated and seen people who've gone through some really terrible things. And one of the biggest fears is I'm damaged. Like I'm damaged now. You know, this thing that happened to me is going to change me for the rest of my life. And I will never be a happy person and I will never be resilient and I will never be able to deal. But it's not true. It's just finding the way for that person. So there are many, many tools. Lots of therapists and pastors and counselors and teachers. I've heard of teachers, school teachers, really helping children who've gone through some really terrible things that the teachers have been very influential. So it doesn't necessarily have to be traditional therapy, but it's finding a connection, a meaningful connection to someone who can help you work through that thing that happened, understand you well enough to know what you need to grab onto in life, to feel strong and to strengthen yourself. It's again, it's choices and self knowledge and the right. You know, we write about this in the book that true connections, it's really essential for happiness and wellness. So, you know, how you define that is another matter. Like, you know, it doesn't have to be 100 people, you know, one or two people, but you. Some. Somebody that makes you feel alive, Conversations that help you. And I think, yes, people can get over real trauma, you know, with. With the right help.

I love that, too. The beautiful, like, connection. Because usually when those things happen to us and I have my own kind of traumas or whatever that I vividly remember of having those moments of. I know I'm not the only one, but I feel like I'm the only one. And it feels horrible to have that. Have a conversation and have somebody hold you in the space of, you can handle it. And just listening to you, that's so healing.

Yeah, I think that's really key to what you said, is that. And this is another thing. We know you asked me about what I did, and I was talking about the blogging. I think this is what's so fascinating about the blog world, is that people who feel alone with things can find out that they're not alone. And I've heard people have commented. You know, I've had a couple blogs where people have said, you know, to other people, you know, thanks for sharing that. And, you know, I don't feel so alone with this anymore. And I think that's, you know, God, if we can make that happen for people, that's, you know, I'm glad because.

I think that's the biggest thing. For shame, too, right? When you're. You just get lost. You're, like, kind of lost in your own little world, and you don't reach out. Like, that's kind of what happens to depression, too. When you're feeling depressed or whatever, you just, like, shrink in. And that reaching out is. I know when I'm not feeling super great, I don't want to reach out. But I always. When I reach out or tell my husband or something, I always feel better.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think that's great advice, you know, for everyone, because there's this fantasy that if we sit there with it and we work with it and we ruminate on it, that we're gonna kind of get rid of it. Right. But actually, we need to be distracted from it. So what? You know, what we need. And I understand that feeling of, like, it's the last thing you want to do, whatever, go out and get dressed up and, you know, put on a happy face and whatever. But, you know, most of the time, it does help because this other interaction takes the place of what was in your head. So it's like a new form of stimulation that is moving your mind, you know, and your body, because you got up, you know, to another place that can, you know, and then it's. It rolls like there's another thing and another thing, you know, So I tell people, you know, listen, if you're just really down in the dumps, you can't even do anything. Just watch a movie, you know, do something that's gonna. Where you enter another world because you might get something from that.

Right?

Yeah.

Which is cool because, you know, sometimes I do think. We think we need to get, like, super focused and myopic on it and try to figure it out versus, like, oh, just go relax and watch a movie. And then maybe the unconscious can kind of.

Yes.

Give us something. Right. Or just shift it and we have a new perspective.

Right, right. That's so true. And, you know, and again, it's always a balance because sometimes you really do need to talk directly about the thing. Right. But I remember once when I was studying to be an analyst, I heard an analyst say, there are things that come up that change in a person that are never discussed in therapy. Like the process of just having someone to talk to and feeling open with someone, a therapist or a friend or whatever. You know, you may never have talked about the fact that you. Whatever. You always wanted to try to be a runner, and you never. You were too inhibited. But then all of a sudden, you might be starting to run or try when you never even brought it up, you see, because there's a freedom that has happened as a result of this connection or a feeling of safety. So other things break open.

So that's awesome. So as we're working with one, it kind of just expands our minds and our creativity in our life where we didn't expect it to.

Right, right. That's the fun part, really, because, you know, you can surprise yourself.

That's awesome.

You get motivated, kind of.

Yeah, you get motivated because you start.

Seeing, like, where you feel better, you know, you have more energy because you feel you're not alone, you know? You know, actually another thing I read somewhere, you know, someone asked a question, would you rather be loved or understood? I think it was. I think it was Madeline Levine, who's written a lot about children and education. She's a psychologist in California. But I thought it was such a great question, you know, because actually a lot of people would rather be understood than loved. Maybe being understood is being loved in a certain way.

So what's your take on that? I'm curious. What's your take on that they would rather be understood than loved.

Because being understood makes you feel much less alone. And maybe if we really got philosophical about it, we could think that. I don't know, I never did really research it or anything, but maybe it really is. Feeling understood is really the experience of being loved in a certain way. Things are good, right, because somebody gets you and you're like, with them and, you know.

Right.

But it's this feeling of not hiding something, not feeling so alone with something, you know, not feeling so ashamed. Because feeling understood relieves a lot of that stuff that we talked about so far today, you know, shame and humiliation and loneliness and fear, you know, so, you know, being understood is good.

And that's. That's gotta be like. Being understood has gotta be huge for the creativity and for us to live, like, an alive and vibrant life, to feel like we're important, that we matter. Like, what we say is heard and understood, like.

Right, right. I think it's true. And also just, you know, I have friends who are artists who say that, you know, I'm thinking of one woman in particular, but whenever we get together and we talk about. She says she never wants to talk about what she's working on. She never wants to talk about the work because she feels that that conversation will somehow interfere with the process. But then there are other people who feel such a great relief when they can talk about the struggles they're having with whatever they're trying. I mean, I know I've experienced that a lot with, you know, if I'm struggling with an idea about a blog or, you know, what's really true, what isn't. I definitely want to have a conversation, a lot of conversations with my husband or certain friends about. About these ideas to sort of test them out. And it helps me, you know, if you have friends that have smart things to say or, you know, care about you and they can help. You know, they might be able to say, oh, you're not seeing this, or, you know, what about this part? Or that works? Or that doesn't. You know, that that helps a lot.

Right. And, like, it's a beautiful. As you were saying that I just saw, like, it's just a collaboration. Like, we don't have to do it all on ourselves. Sometimes we think, oh, we have to figure it all out. But there's so many people in our lives that are actually really smart and they have a different perspective and can add insight to it.

Right.

I forget that sometimes.

Yeah.

Like, oh, wait, they have a different perspective. I try to figure it out all by myself.

It's true. I think we all, a lot of people do that, but it is a collaboration. I think that's a great word.

Yeah, that's great. So I would love to hear, you know, in your book you talk about the Fish five part prescription, which I just think you talk about so many great things in the book, but can you just talk to us a little bit about that and what are the benefits of that and why that could potentially increase our happiness and fulfillment in life?

Right. So, you know, it's what. There's a term, I think it was started at Harvard and it's called lifestyle medicine. I love the term and I thought it meant something that it actually doesn't mean. I think it's about. When you look up lifestyle medicine, it's usually about nutrition and exercise. Fantastic and great. We need to be doing that. But I think of lifestyle medicine as, you know, really choices about the way that we live that have more aspects of our life. So the five part prescription is kind of a way of living a good life for you. And you have to kind of tailor it to you. So the first part, there are five parts. First part is what we call insight, which is self knowledge, which you and I have talked about. And one of the things that I recommend, or we recommend is that writing for a lot of people is very useful. So it doesn't have to be good writing. You don't have to show it to anybody. But if you're trying to understand your dreams or your worries or your concerns or your hopes, you know, writing, having a little you can write on your laptop or your device. I even do blogs sometimes on my iPhone. Like if I think of something on the train and I'm, you know, whatever, I write it there. But whatever your medium, right. It's a way of having what's in you come out of you. And that is actually as a human being, there's something very significant about self expression for wellness. And other people might do it with painting or dancing. I have a very close friend who's a choreographer, and for her it's going into the studio and it's not writing, it's moving. So that's one thing. And I've heard actually people say that there's physical insight from moving the body. So insight is self knowledge. That's number one. Number two is movement. Right. Exercise. I mean, I think we all know this. And you're an athlete, right? So you must have felt that kind of aliveness or vitality, right? From.

Yeah, yeah. For me There's a point of feeling the vitality and then over training and damaging your body as an athlete. But absolutely. I mean, I have. I mean, I get runners high. I mean, I am. I'm very physical. That's.

Yeah, it's.

If I don't have that movement, it's. I'm not as happy. Like, plain and simple.

Right, right. Absolutely. And, you know, I have a couple friends who. I'm not a runner. I do run, but I've never been, like, a really fast or great runner. But I have two friends who are really great runners, and they both say that, oh, nothing happens until you've done it for an hour. They're kind of like, you know that. Like an hour. You know, they were saying that this rudder's high or the kind of good things happen in your head.

That's really funny. I go for more of the sprints. I'm like a sprinter, so I do like 15 minutes of sprints, and then I feel it.

That's actually my husband, who's an orthopedic surgeon. He always says that's a great way to go in terms of. For exercise and for physiology is pretty. Is great, you know. So anyway, yeah, so exercise, movement, whatever it is for you. So a lot of people try to get themselves to exercise, and of course, it feels like they're forcing themselves to go to the gym or, you know, ugh, you know, I want to do this. So try to be creative about it, like put on a movie, you know, and lift weights or get some really nice mats in front of your TV and watch. I don't know, somebody told me that they do their weights while watching Law and Order, you know, so, you know, it's just. You've got to come up with. Sometimes when you combine pleasurable things with things that you don't want to do, it makes you do them, able to do them. So insight movement. It could be walking to. I mean, swimming. I like to swim. So, you know, that's something. Insight, movement. The next one is mind rest. And that's actually, you know, I talked about that in the beginning, too. We need some downtime. Kids need downtime. People need nothingness, you know, they need that emptiness. They need to just be still. You know, I said to my husband today, wouldn't it be great if we had four hours to do something that takes one hour? I mean, it's kind of like, you know, these cushions around. Around your. Your duties or, you know, the things you're trying to get done. So we. And again, it gets back to that, you know, Friday Shabbos, Sunday, rest. Some people feel that, you know, when they're in a house of worship, they are getting that stillness. You know, things are coming into them that are rich, but it's still mind rest. So we need it. I mean, it's crazy to think and I do worry about this. This is another thing, you know, I see a lot because I've treated college students a lot. I just don't understand this around the clock accomplishment, you know, like productivity, every minute and four hours of sleep. I just think I don't know how that's really going to be for these people later in life. So I worry about that. There's burnout. We need to have rest. So that's the third insight movement, mind rest, and then your own two hands, which I think is probably the most interesting in a certain way, because when we were writing the book, we discovered research from this woman, Dr. Kelly Lambert, she's a neuroscientist. She actually found that when you make things or tend to your environment in meaningful ways, for her it was actually vacuuming, right? Feel better, you have a mood change. My husband was saying yesterday that he was talking to somebody who said that she could never figure out why she felt so happy when she cooked. There is something about the integration of body and mind when you're making. So, you know, if you're molding clay or you're in the garden or you're, I don't know, even constructing things with your children. You can do like Legos with kids or drawing happen, you know that we were anatomically intended to construct and make things. That's why we have hands. And now we're kind of in a spectator society, right? A lot of it is done for us. We just have to click a button, which I love, you know, I love the convenience of that. But we can't forget that making is very important. You know, the do it yourself movement, the maker movement, become very important to people because I think technology in many ways has taken us out of that. So we need to put some of it back. And we are, we are so insight movement, mind rest, your own two hands making. And the last one is mind shift. So I find this topic also very interesting because that's the basic challenge. How do you take someone in therapy or otherwise, you know, friends, even from a negative, painful place to a more optimistic, hopeful place? And you can't just tell if you tell people smile or put on a happy face. That's one of the most hurtful things, really, that you can say to somebody who's suffering, you may not know why they're suffering, but if you're a stranger to them. So we have to think of ways to get people there. Well, if you do the first four things, you might get a natural mind shift. But there are techniques and I won't go it, you know, go into it here right now, but there are techniques in cognitive behavioral therapy which has become like the treatment of choice for a lot of things in the last few years. But it's about how, what the technique is to change your thoughts. Just changing your thoughts can change your mood. And so this is. There are ways to do that. So. And we talk about that in the book. So those are part prescription pieces. Also we talk about my husband. Can we put a plus two in there? Because we also think nature is very important. Exposure to green, it's very important. And the other thing is true connections to other people is really essential. So we think about putting the plus two. Click with it.

It's the five part, AKA seven part prescription. That's great. I love that. I. Well, so I'm curious on the changing your thoughts. You know, just. Are you talking as far as like you have a negative thought and then you kind of turn it around to an affirmation? Because I know that there's a variety of different thoughts. You know, the kind of Buddhist mindfulness would just let it flow and try to be neutral and non reactive. So what, what would be kind of an example of somebody changing their thoughts or making that mind shift by changing their thoughts?

Right. Well, there are a lot of techniques and I think yoga meditation is one of them. That's right. That you know, it's kind of like don't fight it, don't stamp on it, don't grapple with it. You know, just let it float around. Right. Let other things float around too. I just actually wrote a blog about lightheartedness that I posted on Psychology Today because I think that's. I was at a lecture and someone talked about it, a psychiatrist and anyway, I looked into it, but. Well, that's what we want. Light heartedness in Buddhist thought is not saying that you're carefree. It's saying that you hold the care within you gently and delicately, but you also have. You hold the care. And there's a sort of softness to it, but it doesn't mean that you're wiping out what is sad or poignant or tragic. You hold them together. It's kind of like, you know, you're putting more stimuli in so that you can the intensity of just the sadness doesn't take over. It's sort of like not letting it take over. So in meditation, we learn to let other things in that can balance the negativity. That's one way, another way. William James was a psychologist in the 1800s, and he said our greatest weapon against stress is to trade one thought for another. So it's actually, there are ways to stop thoughts. I mean, there are techniques for that. So you might say a mantra, like there can be a poem or a prayer or even a song that you repeat and repeat and repeat to yourself and just make that your assignment. But it's your words. It's whatever words you want to say. And by doing it repetitively, you kind of move that other part piece out of the way. It gets into a rhythm and a physical rhythm, and that is effective for changing thoughts. And kind of what we talked about before is distraction. Just read a book, watch a movie, see a friend, physically get out of the situation.

You're not grooving the same thoughts, the same emotions, the same story again and again. This is a way to kind of step outside of that story, ruminate on the problem.

See, because. Because, you know, David Brooks wrote it, wrote a piece about this in the New York Times. There's introspection and there's rumination. And you don't. You want introspection, right? You want to be able to understand, but you don't want to go so far with your self exploration that you can't get up. I mean, you know, you want to. You know, you don't want to go over. If you find that you're ruminating, getting deeper and deeper and deeper into a quagmire, that's when you have to kind of find the motivation to bolt out of that and then take that first step and just get into something else.

And you know, you're in rumination if you're thinking the same thoughts.

You're like going in a circle and you're trying to solve this thing, you know, and you're coming at it from this way and that way and this way, but it's really just the same seven ways, right? And you're not, you're not getting anywhere.

Yes, I know, I know. I've been journaling for. I started to journal like when I was in fifth grade. I still have my fifth grade journal. So I've been journaling since I was in fifth grade really heavily for like the last 18 years. But I have the practice of like, I notice I'm like inspired and then all of a sudden, I'm trying to work on something and I start ruminating. I'm like, just step away from the journal. This is not. I'm not getting anywhere. I'm just go do something else. But it. Yeah, I'm very familiar with that. There's like a fine line of introspection to. Now I'm ruminating.

I think a lot of people struggle with that. I do. I do. Because it's tricky. It's like your mind plays a trick on you. You think you are being productive, but you are not being productive. So, yeah. You're not going to get to the bottom of it.

Right.

So, I mean, occasionally you do come to some truth that sets you free. That is true.

Right.

But you start to recognize within yourself when you're actually on that road or you're not.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, I like that. You totally are. I have had numerous times where I'm like, I am. This is not helpful. I think that I'm solving it and I'm not. That goes back to the self knowledge again. Right.

Know thyself or sensitivity to yourself. Kindness, really to yourself. Right. You know, there's also a movement now came out of UT called self compassion. Right. And it really is that. It's a way of fighting off that harsh critic within and having some kindness with regard to how you use your time and your thoughts towards yourself. Mm.

I love that too. The lightheartedness.

Yeah.

That's when you know that you're kind of in the sweet spot.

Yeah.

Right. Of like, oh, it doesn't feel that intense or that dramatic or that, you know, some of our thoughts can feel.

Right. It's kind of like you keep scrubbing a wound. Right. The worst. But if you let hold it lightly and lightheartedly, it can sit there and then it will start to heal. Maybe you don't have to do anything with it.

I love that idea.

Yeah.

That's not where I naturally gravitate, but I love that idea.

Tie heals too. I was very upset about something once, and then a friend of mine said to me, you know, Carrie, time heals. And I was like, yeah.

So sometimes less doing, less stimulation, more nature, more relaxation actually heals our mind and body.

It's letting. There's. Sometimes you have to let and not do.

Yeah.

You know, you just kind of have to let it go where it's gonna go.

And would that be like surrendering? Would that be surrendering be another word for that or. No.

Yeah. That's interesting. So it's surrendering. Well, I think surrendering is a little stronger than letting. I mean, surrendering is this kind of feeling like, okay, you know, come get, you know, beat me up. No, you don't want, you know, you have to hold. You have to take care of yourself. Right. But sometimes you're controlling more things in your life than you need to be.

Right.

And you don't need to be as worried as you are.

Right. Because I think sometimes we potentially get. Think we're being productive and we're like, important if we're trying to control everything or we're like, you know, like, we're just. There's like this. This feeling that I notice in myself and in our culture of like, being busy all the time and productive, that to just be like, do I have to do that right now? Like, there's like an urgency that we have to get everything done on our to do list, really.

Right, right. Yeah, I think you're right. I think a lot of people feel that way, and I think there was a time when we were very much okay with some slow living.

I love that.

Not now.

Yeah, I'm a slow living kind of gal. I am in the wrong era. I mean, that's like the challenge, right, of doing this work in the modern world of coming back to our senses. Which you talk about too, is like the five senses. Like, can you talk about that more like the five senses and why that's so important in our daily life?

Right. Well, so this is one of the things about technology, which I love and use all the time, and, you know, my gosh, I couldn't live without it. But, you know, we just. There's a way in which, when you're using pencils, you know, and music is coming from another part of the room, or live music or live theater in the flesh, kinds of interactions with people face to face. I mean, it's so great that we can communicate this way, but there's a way in which, because we're human, because we have flesh and because we have taste and touch and smell and sight and hearing, that we need to feel those things fully. And that's, you know, there just has to be opportunities in your life where that's happening. You know, you just have to balance it because otherwise there's a way in which we involute and maybe we become one dimensional and we just want to make sure that we're fully alive.

What I love about your book, and for me it was a big aha. Is that I don't like to be on the computer very Much like, I just. It doesn't work for me. I've noticed if I have. If I'm on the computer a lot, like, I just don't feel as happy. I don't feel as vital. I'm like, I feel so much better when I'm cooking, you know, doing. Being in nature. And I was like, making myself wrong and like, kind of like, okay, you know, buck up. You know, this is. You need to be on the computer. And from reading your book, I was like, oh, no, actually, no, I don't. I'm gonna do the five part, AKA seven part prescription. And that's how you can be happy. I mean, it's. I love that because it was a big aha for me. Those things in your seven ideas, you know, really do create happiness if we follow them right?

And just finding out. And the other thing is, one of the things I worried about with the book was that people would feel pressure, you know, like, I'm too busy. You know, I can't do that. But if you just acquaint yourself with the steps for five minutes here and there and become aware of the impact. Exactly what you said. Oh, I notice when I'm cooking, I feel better. Or, you know, when I'm outside, I feel better. It's noticing because if you notice, you've made a mental note and that's become part of your psyche, and then it will influence choices you make later. So all you really need to do is acquaint yourself with that experience for a little bit of time, and then you'll be able to, you know, maybe shift things as you go to do it more.

Yeah, I love that. Not the pressure to do it all perfectly, just little. And you have that in the book, too. I like, you know, 10 minutes or just a little bit of time to do it. Walking outside, looking at the sky.

Right?

Not a big deal. I love you. Had. Let me see if I have it here. I think I had it. A quote from the book, and it says, because it's so easy to purchase, hire, replace, and stay in place, we have stopped making things, repairing things, and using our hands. We are losing process. But process is gratifying. Process, not product, is what we need to feel alive and well. And I was like, that is awesome. Because we do have that right of like, oh, it's much better to hire and it's much better to do this so that we can do more of it. And we. We do lose that sense of our hands and the connection of making our food and caring for our children and Vacuuming, like the simple things actually make us happy or can make us happy.

I agree with you. I really do. And I also, you know, there's pride too. And also when you're in a process, it's a longer experience, it's more total experience. So there, you know, there's this experience of flow, which is when you kind of lose track of time and you get very absorbed in a task. And it's really one of the most delightful things a human being can experience. You know, if you've ever been, I guess for you, runner's high, you know, intensely involved in a process, an athletic process, a making things process, a musical process, that's great. Like, that's when we feel good. So we need it. You know, if it's just whatever, click it in and throw it on and pick it up. You know, I am so appreciative of that because I so busy, you know, I need efficiency. But there are times when that slow process really is grounding.

So should we look for ways to do that? Like in like just like you were saying, just look for little things to do and maybe even afternoons where we can just have that space to do that?

Right, right. Well, it goes back again to self knowledge. So if you identify there's something you, you know, you don't want to force yourself. But if there's something that you want to do, maybe I'll give it some time and some patience and be in a process with it and have humor about whatever you're not doing well, or embrace your flaws or understand that it's through not doing it right, that you start to understand how to do it right. And.

Yeah, well, I love it too. For me, it gives me the insight that, that sometimes we think, oh, I'm wasting my time, I should just buy this, whatever. We all have those thoughts and there's easy access to anything and everything. But I've noticed that I felt better with these things that you talk about in the book. But then it's also inspiring, like, oh, wait, me spending time for this is actually improving my happiness. I'm not wasting time. It's actually wiring for me for more happiness and creativity, which is an incentive, a bonus, which is nice, right?

Yes. I mean, so that's a good thing. So I, you know, that's something that does come up because time is really an issue for many, many people. So years ago, so long ago, when I was a resident, an article there used to be a her section in the New York Times Magazine. And Perry Claus is a very famous pediatrician writer and knitter. And she written this essay in the Times about how she was in Grand Rounds, which is the big lecture that, you know, people have to go to and there's usually a famous speaker and you're sitting in the audience and you're taking it in, you're taking notes. Well, she was knitting during Grand Rounds and someone admonished her, you know, implying that she was being disrespectful to the lecturer or to the person. And she basically communicated that she can understand it and take it in more when her hands are moving. So, you know, I think that there may be some people. You know, my son is actually a person who moves around a lot, so some of the teachers let him stay in the back of the classroom and get up and down and allows him to absorb better. So I think it's just understanding who you are and, you know, you can be doing something like being in a lecture. And also, you know, some people might want to draw or doodle or.

Very interesting. That's awesome. What if our schools were set up in this way?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, some of them are. I mean, there's Waldorf schools.

Yes, this is true. Which is awesome. Very cool. Okay, well, we will wrap up. I so appreciate you. We can obviously, I have tons of questions, but we'll wrap up. You know, so we're not talking for hours, but can you please share where people can find out more about you, your work and your book and all of that?

Yes. So I'm going to be launching a new website in a couple of weeks. In a few weeks. Carrie BaronMD. So there'll be a lot of blogs on there and any concerns or questions people have, I'd love to hear about it or topics that they want covered. So that'd be great. Right now it's thecreativitycure.com we have a website for the book, but the Facebook page is very active. The Creativity Cure Facebook page, there's a lot going on on that and people seem to find it useful. So that's another place. And on Twitter as well. So I hope to see you there. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed talking to you.

Thank you. I loved it. I appreciate your work and thanks for bringing more happiness and creativity to the world.

Keep up your good work, too.

Thank you. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mama Goddess. Sending you lots of love and blessings. If you'd to like, like to connect more, go to mamagoddess.com until next time. Keep rocking it and have an awesome day.