Zen Habits & The Art of Parenting with Leo Babauta

Welcome to Mama Goddess. I'm your host, Alexandra J. Johnson. This podcast is all about rocking your goddess life, creating vibrant health and celebrating motherhood and family life. It's about living an authentically awesome life. Let's have.

Hello and welcome.

I'm Alexandra J. Johnson and today's guest is Leo Babauta. Leo is a simplicity blogger and author. He created Zen habits, a top 25 blog according to Time magazine with 260,000 subscribers and also the best selling books Focus, the Power of Less and Zen to Done. He is a former journalist of 18 years, a husband, father of six children, and in 2010 moved from Guam to San Francisco where he leads a simple life.

Welcome, Leo.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Yeah, it's so great. I love your bio, I love your work, and I know I've sent this in the email, but you are just so authentic and so transparent and I just appreciate your simplicity and your commitment to your family and to happiness and you just keep it real and simple. So thank you. Thank you.

Oh, thank you. That's very kind. Yeah, I try. I don't claim to be perfect. I obviously make a lot of mistakes, but I think, you know, you try and I'm having fun.

Yeah, totally. I just love how you just go for it. You're like, yeah, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna quit smoking, I'm gonna start running, I'm gonna go vegan. It's just so, it's so inspiring. So I just love that you're willing to go for it and then put it out there for all of us to learn about it.

Well, I see my life as like a series of experiments. And so I really love experimenting with my life and seeing what the results are going to be. All of those things that you talked about, they're just all these little experiments and sometimes the results are incredible and sometimes they're crap. And so I toss those out, but I'm learning a lot.

That's great. So what inspires you to wake up every day? What inspires you to do the awesome work that you do?

Well, like I said, these experiments, every day I'm doing something new and different. I might be writing about something that I'm excited about, but yeah, I just, I feel like life is this big learning lab that I learn from every day. And so I can't wait to find out what's going to happen today.

That's so awesome. And then you have Zen Habits, which is a wildly popular blog. And on there, I love that you have Zen Habits is about finding Simplicity in the daily chaos of our lives. It's about clearing the clutter so we can focus on what's important, create something amazing and find happiness. And I'm curious, how has that translated into you being a better parent?

Oh, yeah. Well, I think first of all, a good parent is someone who's happy and happy with themselves. And so because that is, you are first of all a role model to your kids. And so they learn by watching. And as humans, we always do that. We kind of see what other people are doing and we kind of learn behavior through that. And so if you are happy and happy with yourself, then that translates down to your kids. And I think that's the most important thing you can teach them, and you teach them by example. So that's the first thing. But I also find that I am constantly experimenting with life and asking questions like, what would this be like? And I think that also is something that I'm trying to teach my kids, that you don't just accept things as they are or as you're told. You ask. You ask questions, find out if this is really true. And in that way you kind of apply almost like the scientific method to your entire life and everything, you know. So they're learning how to learn because I learned how to learn. Those are just a couple of other things. But yeah, that's. Those things are a lot of fun for me.

That's so great. And so you have six children. I'm always like, amazed. I'm like, how do you have six children? That's like so fantastic.

Well, it was accident, if you want the full truth of how you have six kids. So I had two and then I got divorced. And so then I met my wife, who also had two from a previous relationship. And so we came together and had four from that previous relationships. And then we couldn't help ourselves and we had two more.

That's so great. And they all live with you?

Well, yeah. Well, my oldest daughter is now in College. She's 19, and she's with us today on summer vacation, but she's actually going to college in Santa Barbara. And so she and my other son from my first marriage split time between me and her, me and my ex wife. But the other four are with us. Yeah, all week long.

That's so great. So have you been interested in this stuff since you've become a dad, or have you evolved and changed? And how have your kids evolved and changed with you as you've changed?

Yeah, well, let's see. I guess I've always been Interested in some of the stuff since I became a dad, but it definitely happened probably around six years ago, is when I really got passionate about this stuff and started learning a lot and figured out how to change my life and simplify and do all these things. And so that was. I was already a dad of, I think, five kids, and then six came along in 2006. And so I was already definitely a dad. And one of the reasons why I did start making changes and learning about this stuff was because I felt like I wasn't a good enough dad. I didn't have time for my kids. My life was too full and complicated so that I couldn't spend time with them. And I remember one of the turning points for me was when I was so busy, I was working on a Saturday and I was so stressed out and trying to like, get my work done before my kids soccer game. And I promised myself I was going to make it to that game because it was really important to me and I couldn't. I just couldn't make it to the game. It was kind of heartbreaking to have to call my wife and say, I'm not going to make it. And I realized then that I needed to change something, that if I couldn't, I didn't have time for my kids, then I needed to make a change. And so I made these changes. And definitely through the process of making the changes, I think I've set a good example for the kids and got them interested in how this whole thing works. So I think that's a great example to set for your kids is how to change your life.

Right? And when you had that kind of aha, then did you just totally change your life? Because I know people who are going to be listening to this are going to be like, I feel that I don't have enough time for my kids. So what would you recommend somebody who's like, I need to make a change too?

Well, I walked out of work that day and never looked back. No, I'm kidding.

I'm like, oh my gosh.

I had that fantasy, to tell you the truth. But no, I couldn't do that. You know, food to put on the table. But what I did do was decide I need to change something. And so I had been trying to change things and kept failing. And so I made a list of all these things that I wanted to change. And I said, I can't possibly change all of this at once. So I picked one thing, and as you might know, that was quitting smoking and I had failed at that a bunch of times. And that was also another change that I was making for my kids because I believe that if you're a smoker, your kids are much more likely to be a smoker. And so I didn't want them to be. I cared about their health, and so more than my health, I cared about theirs. And so I started trying to make that change, and I did a lot of research, figured out how to make that change, and started with that one thing. And then I started, you know, I learned from that, and I carried that on to the next change. And so one change at a time is my biggest recommendation. Choose one thing and start small and really focus on making that change stick and then move on to the next one. And I know that's really tough for a lot of people because they want to change everything all at once, but that doesn't work. I tried that a million times, and most people have, and it rarely sticks. So give yourself the best chance of success by sticking to one thing at a time, as small a change as possible.

Yeah. I love. It's so great, too, to see what's possible. And you're so great at sharing this online of what's possible when you do one thing and you consistently do it over years.

Yeah, my entire life has changed. I mean, it's a revelation because what happens is it's kind of like compound interest where it takes a while, but after a while, this thing just grows and grows and grows. And so, yeah, if you look back a year later, making one change a month, you've just made 12 changes that stuck, as opposed to making 12 changes all at once and none of them stick. So, yeah, I tried that other method and didn't work. The one change at a time method. Small, slow, gradual change has completely transformed my life over the last six years.

That's so awesome. Yeah, I love. It's so great. I totally agree with you. And I've definitely had that too. And the things that I'm doing now has taken me so long to master. And if I could have told myself way back when, like, just be patient, go slow, Everything's gonna be fine, it would have been a much better journey.

Yeah. You know, even if we had our future self come back in time and start slapping us around and saying, don't do that, do one change at a time and stick to these changes, we, most of the time, won't listen because.

We'Re, like, so enthusiastic. I can do it all.

Yeah. Future self. You don't know what you're talking about. But yeah, it's the truth. If we could know from hindsight is 20 20. But if we knew now, I mean, if we knew then what we know now, we could have done so much. But I think if everyone just decides, okay, let's just start now, then you'll thank yourself five years from now.

Right? Okay. So doing one thing and then also, you know, you've been, I don't know how long you've been a dad, but a long time. What would you recommend to somebody who's just diving into the parenthood journey? Something that you wish you would have learned along the way or before you became a dad?

Yeah. Are they like pregnant and ready to become a parent?

Yes.

Is that okay? So it's really hard the first few months where you don't sleep, but it gets easier. So yeah, you might cry a few times during that period, but things will get.

Did you cry during that time?

Oh yeah. And you were like walking around like a zombie. You're like the living dead because you're not getting any sleep and you don't know if it's day or night. But that's just a small period. And actually it's filled with a lot of happiness too. But it gets easier. And after a while, what I learned is that you can teach them. I mean, obviously as they get older, you start teaching them one step at a time to be self sufficient. And then it gets really easy because they can do everything. My kids can feed themselves, bathe and brush their teeth, clean their rooms, wash their clothes, even cook and clean the house. And basically they're slaves for me, but they do everything. And so now it's just a matter of having fun with them.

So it's cool. So helping them become self sufficient, self reliant. Yeah.

As soon as possible. Because we have a tendency as parents to do things for them a lot of times because it's easier to do it for them. It takes them forever to tie their shoes. But if you can take the time in the beginning to teach them, you'll save yourself a lot of time later.

Right. And which goes back to the work that you do of kind of like simplifying the daily chaos so that we can be present for our child tying their shoe and we're not stressed out and like, hurry up.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And another thing that parents do that really stresses them out is, is they give them, they try and plan the kids entire lives so they have all these different events and classes and sports and all this stuff which all of them, each by itself is Great. But when you do all of this stuff, it's like you're controlling your kid's life and they have no unstructured time to just play and imagine and decide for themselves what to do. And so the kids lose that ability. All of a sudden they're like, what do I do when they grow up? It's like they have no idea how to manage their lives. And so you have to kind of give them that experience much earlier.

And then you also do. I read it on your blog somewhere. Just talking about giving your children. Like you said, we pack our kids lives, but giving them the space to be in solitude and explore more of their inner world. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, and I think that's true. Like as adults we don't really know what to do with ourselves when we have no computer or mobile device or tv. It's like all of a sudden everything is quiet and like, you know, you don't know how to deal with that quietness and solitude. And it starts because as kids we have TV and now video games and iPads and all those things. And it's like they're always connected, they're always busy with all these events and so they have no time to just kind of have quiet and be alone and like make up games for themselves and stuff. You don't really have confidence in your ability to have that solitude when you grow up. So yeah, I think it's a really, really essential thing for kids is to have some quiet time, being disconnected, maybe go outside and figure out what to do. And I think it's great for their imagination, great for their decision making abilities and great for their self confidence, among many other things. But yeah, it's really important.

That's so awesome. So it starts with us as parents that we need to be comfortable with our own solitude and demonstrate that for our children.

Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes maybe start by doing it with them. So just like let's turn everything off and disconnect and let's just kind of have some quiet time and do it together maybe.

That's so great. I love that because our culture is so fast paced and like you said, always connected to something and dialed into something. And if you don't do that and people are like, kids will not settle down. But if you actually do that with them, then I would imagine it's got to be super healing and beneficial for them too. In their brain.

Yeah. And when you disconnect, then you can connect with each other a lot better, I think, because we're always on our devices. And that's true in my family, too. And I have to encourage them to, let's all disconnect right now, get outside and do something else. So it's a modern problem? Definitely.

Yes. I would love to talk about that. Technology. Technology and the gadgets and the games and the computer and the television. It seems like we just all sit in front of screens all the time. So can you talk about what you've done with your family and what's helped your family to be more connected and intimate?

Well, I have to admit that we definitely have this problem just as much as anyone else. We have all the possible devices, and we definitely are always connected through that. But it's, you know, as I see, I notice that it's an addiction that not only parents, but also kids have, and it's hard to stop. And so one of the things that I do is now just kind of setting the example again, is I try and take breaks every half an hour or so and just, you know, close everything and, you know, read or stretch or walk around or go outside, exercise, play some sports, do something with the kids. And I find it to be really, I mean, it's a lot better because you start to break that addiction. And again, you have time to connect, time to be active. All the screen time is taking away from active time. You don't go outside. You don't do any kind of activities because you're on the screen. And so that's unhealthy, I think, but also means that we don't have time just to kind of clear some space in our head and think and create and imagine. So we are experimenting with the kids and different ways to like, balance screen time with non screen time.

Right. And are they cooperative in your. In your desires to have them get out and do more movement and be less. Less time in front of the screen?

Well, I think. Well, they're cooperative. I think what they find that is that they cooperate. Then we are less likely to kind of be, like, putting down restrictions, like from above. You know, like, if they kind of participate in that process, then they can help decide how it works. So, you know, I think that they definitely have withdrawal symptoms because it is an addiction. And I said, I point that out to them. I'm like, look at what's happening here. You're like, you always want to go back out and about because you want to get back to your device. That's withdrawal, you know, I mean, that's like a drug. And so it's kind of, I think, awareness of it is really the first step. And we're kind of still at that stage and trying to figure out what works and what doesn't.

Right. So what about toys and stuff for your kids? You know, I know you write a lot about, like, simplifying and decluttering, and it seems like kids just have usually in our modern world, have ridiculous amounts of toys and stuff.

Yeah, well, it's been a slow process, but again, leading by example was the first step. And then talking about it, having conversations about it, making them more aware of why having a ton of stuff isn't always great. Yeah, you always want more toys, but then that just fills up your closet in your room, and it makes it hard to find the things that you really do like. It creates more cleaning and maintenance and caring for everything. It just makes everything more difficult once you have too much stuff. And then when we talk, I also kind of. It's always a good opportunity to educate them. So when we have these conversations, so we talk about where the stuff comes from, the manufacturing process, all the resources that go into it, all the pollution that goes into it. And so this is, I think, a really educational thing is talking about stuff and where it comes from and the cost of that stuff. Like, it's not just coming from nowhere. And it doesn't cost us nothing. You know, it costs life to earn the dollars to make that stuff. So it's a whole lifestyle, this consumerist lifestyle. And then you go into debt and you have financial problems and you're unhappy and stressed out, and all of this stuff is something kids are blissfully unaware of because all they want is the toy. You start to engage them in this conversation, then they start to kind of become more aware of it. And then as adults, I think they have a healthier attitude towards stuff and consumerism. And so I'm not saying our kids are immune to it. Obviously, one of the biggest things is advertising so effective on kids, because they are not immune to it, and adults aren't either. But we at least have some kind of cynicism, like, okay, they're trying to sell us something that looks like magic. I want it totally taken advantage of. And so the only way they're not going to be taken advantage of is, first of all, if you could expose them to less of it, but you can't do that completely, so you have to. Second of all, educate them and say, well, why are they having this commercial? Is it just to show you their great stuff or are they trying to get your money right? And is it really all that it's cracked up to be. Let's examine that. And so it's a long process, but it's definitely, I think, a healthy thing to kind of educate them so that they can kind of be aware that what advertising is and how it plays upon their desires and maybe their insecurities. Like all these other kids have it, I have to have it. And is it true that you have to have it just because everyone else has to have it and don't just kind of lay down the word, say no, you don't. But kind of get them thinking about it and make them come to their own conclusions.

Right. So you have conversations with them about kind of what's necessary. And you obviously live pretty much. You personally just live pretty much a minimalist life, right?

Fairly. I mean, yeah. With glitches here and there. Yeah, it's fairly minimal. But it, again, it has been a long process. So I didn't just get there overnight. Also, I had to change all kinds of habits, from shopping habits to, you know, I watch less TV now. And I realized through experiments that I don't need as much stuff as I thought I needed. And even now I get rid of stuff and realize I didn't need that. And I thought I did, and I bought it for nothing. Yeah, I mean, I am still learning, too, but it's definitely a long process. And then, you know, you kind of talk to the kids about it like, hey, check it out. I'm trying this experiment where I only had one pair of pants. That's weird. But then I kind of tell them, oh, yeah, I think it's cool because of this. So they can see the process that I'm going through. As someone who's learning about minimalism. Well, I don't force that on them. They do learn from me learning, so I think it's a good thing.

And then for some people who maybe are not familiar with minimalism and being a minimalist, what are some of the benefits that you've experienced from just living more simply? Because I know for me, I just am the same thing. I want to just get rid of stuff. I love simplicity, Zen. That makes me feel good. I'm like, get rid of, get rid of, get rid of.

Well, I. Absolutely. I mean, people sometimes have a hard time because they cling to their stuff and they think that they need it and security and it's comfort and all this stuff. But as you learn about these attachments that we have and these emotions that we put into our stuff, it's kind of liberating. Once you figure that out, and then you figure out how to get rid of stuff. So I actually love it just like you do. Getting rid of it is my favorite part. It's better than the acquiring, but that took a while because you had to learn. Like acquiring doesn't make you necessarily a more beautiful person, more cool, more hip hop. And we think that because advertising makes us think that. So minimalism is kind of an experiment to figure out what we really need, what's essential, what makes us happy and what we don't need. And getting rid of all the inessential stuff. And what that level is, is not static. And we don't know it yet and we never will know it. Actually, the key thing is not reaching a certain level of minimalism or being more minimal than the next guy, but the process and the thinking that goes into it and the learning that happens. When you start asking questions like, is this necessary? Do I need 12 pairs of pants? Or will six do? Do I need six or will three do? And then you realize, okay, well, maybe one is too little, maybe I need two. You gotta ask. And you don't just acquire and accumulate mindlessly. It's a bit of mindfulness. So, yeah, I love an uncluttered, simple room. It's one of my favorite joys. But I also love getting rid of stuff. I love learning about myself and why I'm attached to things. And maybe I don't need to be. So, yeah, those are some of the benefits of minimalism. You also spend less and so you need to work less because everything that we spend costs us life, life minutes, life dollars. And I found that if you stop spending all that, then you can spend your time doing other things besides earning money to buy more and get into more debt. I also have gotten out of debt, which is one of my favorite things, is being debt free. Now, there was such a stress before just being in this huge hole of debt and trying to make ends meet every payday. And now I. That's one less thing to worry about. And I feel totally liberated.

Yeah, so that's going to be a huge thing because our culture is just crazy in debt. And it seems like everyone is having financial struggles, especially with families. So this is another added benefit of simplifying no debt.

Absolutely. I mean, it's all related. I mean, health is also another benefit. But yeah, getting out of debt I think is one of the best simplifying things you can do. And so it's. It simplifies your life to be out of debt, but also to get out of debt. You have to simplify your life. You have to buy less. We had to focus on simple pleasures rather than pleasures that cost a lot of money. And there's tons of free stuff that you can do. We would go outside with the kids and play kickball or something, or soccer, and it was totally free, using a ball that someone had given us as a gift, just cluttering up our closet. We dragged it out and played games you could play charades, board games, all kinds of things that cost almost nothing. Go to the library and read with the kids. And all of that is simple. And it also helps you get out of debt. So it's all kind of related.

And I love how you're so great and you write about this as well, that it's like, it becomes fun for you of being frugal. Because I know a lot of people are like, oh, I'm in debt and I have to give this up and I have to do this. And you create an enthusiasm and an energy of like, I want to do this. I want to be debt free. Like, this feels good.

And as a parent, that's one of the most important things that you can do, is if you're going to start to simplify and get rid of possessions or be more frugal and stop buying stuff and stop going to expensive things, then you have to impart on your kids that this is not a sacrifice. You're not trying to suffer your way through this period so you can get to something good. You're creating a better life right now, that a simple life is better and that getting rid of stuff and living frugally and, you know, doing free things is better right now. And it's not a sacrifice. This is a gain. This is something that you should celebrate that you're able to do this stuff for free and it's a gift and be grateful for it and all of that stuff. That whole attitude is, I think, hugely beneficial to kids as they grow up. And you have to kind of share that with them. Don't just say, we're not doing this anymore. We're getting rid of our cable tv, which is something we did. It's not like, oh, we're getting rid of something great, now we're free to do other things.

Right?

Yeah. So that's a really important lesson that we've taught our kids, or we've tried to at least.

Right. It's so great. And I love that you focus on creating something amazing. And you just, you know, you have six children and you create amazing Stuff all the time. So can you just talk about, like, how you create so much and how productive you are while still being a great parent and having an awesome, simple life?

I mean, I have to qualify that I'm not always a great parent. Obviously. I make a lot of mistakes and all of that. So I don't want to paint a picture of perfection, but. But I think perfection includes the imperfections, right?

Definitely. It's part of the learning process.

Yeah. And I think creating for my blog and business and all of that stuff, I think that is also a part of parenting. So I create on my own and I make this business. And a lot of times the kids are unaware of what I do, but when I kind of share that with them, I am hoping to inspire them that they don't just need to get a 9 to 5 job to make a living. To go home and be tired and then sleep and wake up for your next 9 to 5 session. Not that jobs are necessarily horrible, but a lot of times people just get jobs because that's the way you make a living. And so what I'm trying to teach them is that you can create and you can make a living doing things that you love, and you can go into business for yourself if you want to, and that's a viable option that you can do instead of college, for example, and you can learn a lot doing that. So I'm trying to give them a broader view of the way an adult life is compared to what I knew when I graduated from high school. And also the joy of creating is something that I'm trying to impart on them. So anyway, I don't know if your question was, how do I do that despite having all these kids?

Yeah, I'm curious on some of your tips as well, just on how you create it all. I mean, a lot of people look to you as a blogger and creating a successful business and also being a great family man.

Well, I think it's important to have the time to create the solitude that you need because you're busy as a parent and all of that, but you also need the time to create. So I had to figure out how to do that. It's definitely an obstacle, but it's not unsolvable, obviously. So one of the best things that I did is I started waking up earlier, and I don't wake the kids up early so that I can have that time in the morning to create. So that's my best time to create. But I also have other times. And it helps that I. It helps Tremendously that my wife Eva, homeschools the kids and gives me time to create. So if I need to write, she will definitely make sure that I have that time and vice versa. If she needs time to do something that she really wants to work on, I will give her. I'll try and give her that time. So we kind of work as a team. So that's really. I'm really lucky to have that. Not everyone does, but definitely teaching the kids to be self sufficient so that they can work and play and do stuff on their own while I have time to do stuff on my own is huge. Obviously you can't do that with a baby, but if you could find ways to get that time for solitude and creativity, then I think that's really a key thing.

That's so great. I love it. You're just super committed to doing it too. So you move through resistance that you have around your creativity and you're like, I have this amount of time, I gotta get going, I gotta do my stuff.

Yeah. And if your time is limited, you're gonna be more focused. Like if you only have an hour versus all day long, anytime. If you only have an hour, you will focus like incredibly and say, I gotta get everything done in that time. Because after that, then who knows? So give yourself limits. And you want to have time for creating, time for the kids, time for exercise and all that stuff. So finding ways to make all of that work is important. Sometimes combining them is the only way to do it. So if you need time for exercise, but you also want time with your kids, exercise with the kids and sometimes creating with the kids also can work. So have them, if they're able to type or draw or whatever, whatever. Have a time when we have 10 minutes of silence where we all just kind of create on our own at the same table maybe. And then after the timer rings, After 10 minutes, let's go and take a five minute break and then go back and do that for an hour. So you do 10 and five as an example together, and in the five minutes you play in between, and then you go back and create. So there's ways to do it depending on how old your kids are and everything. But it's a good thing to teach them how to just be quiet and create.

Right. So then I'm also curious on the. Because you had mentioned the homeschooling and I've seen that you do that or unschooling. How does that work? Your wife takes care of that. Why did you choose to do that? What are Some of the benefits of.

That, well, we definitely do it as a team, the unschooling. But I have to admit, she takes on the bulk of the work, so I help out. But what we. I know we were inspired by my sister, for example, and other people we read about online who are homeschooling their kids. And then. So we started that a couple years ago or a few years ago, and that was a huge step for us. But the idea was that we would be able to spend more time with our kids. At the same time, their education could be more individually tailored to them rather than as a big classroom kind of say, okay, well, this person really loves reading this kind of stuff, so let's let them read that rather than reading stuff that they're bored with. Anyway, there's a lot of reasons for it. But when you first start homeschooling, you start doing school in the home, which is like classes, right, but with materials. And so that's what we did at first, and I think most people do that when they first start homeschooling. But then you start to read about other people who are kind of pushing the boundaries and you read about this weird thing called unschooling. So we did, and we're like, well, that's weird, but also interesting. It's like they throw out all the ideas of schooling where you don't just learn science and then reading and then math in separate blocks, and you don't follow a curriculum that's set by someone else. You learn based on what you're passionate about, just like you and I do. Kids learn better that way too. Like, they become really interested in bugs, and so they can just like have the freedom and the independence and the self sufficiency to go and learn about bugs however they want to, whether it's on the Internet or reading or going outside and looking for them, or, you know, finding a science museum or finding a bug expert. That's how we learn. And I think kids learn the same way and they can learn from how we learn. And so a lot of unschooling, because we don't have all the answers, is learning about learning. Like, how do people learn and how do kids learn best, and trying different things out and figuring out the best way to learn with them. And it's amazing, once you start to kind of question your traditional ideas about schooling, you become again liberated and free to do all kinds of really fun and incredible experiments. And I have to admit, we're still trying to figure that out, but really fun to learn how to Figure that out.

Yeah, it just seems like it makes sense. Like you said, this is how we all learn. I mean, I have a degree and it's like, did I really learn something in college? Not really. It's all been self taught.

Yeah. All the things that you really love, you learned on your own. Mostly. There are obviously exceptions, but for the vast majority of our schooling lives, we learned only what we were told to learn because we had to, not because we wanted to. And we didn't retain it because we didn't really care about it and we didn't see the relevance in our lives and we weren't excited about it. And so it becomes this vast waste of time. Like, why did I waste all these years of my schooling on like, why did I do it? But if you get rid of the basic assumption that you have to do this and then all of a sudden you're open to do whatever you want. And I believe that kids can learn how to learn and then teach themselves whatever they want. If they want to become, you know, a scientist or a mathematician or a writer or, you know, anything, they can learn how to do that and figure it out. But they have to first learn how to learn and be passionate about learning. So that's the first thing to teach them.

Right. And then it's also, I love it too, because just hearing you describe it is there's a level of autonomy and then self reliance and inspiration and it's coming from within. It's like, oh my gosh, these kids are going to be amazing.

That's one of the best things about it. That's why I get so excited about talking about it. I try and evangelize every parent that I know because I think that what kids are taught in school is to be submissive, to be robots, to be good workers. So that when they go into the workplace, they know how to follow orders and not think for themselves. Because thinking for themselves is, is what is discouraged in school and in most workplaces. Not obviously in the more enlightened workplaces today, but in the traditional workplace you are supposed to do what you're told and follow orders, otherwise you're not a good worker. And people who think for themselves start getting radical ideas about, well, maybe I shouldn't be following your orders, maybe I should be making my own orders so they don't want that. And so once you start to become autonomous and realize you can think for yourself in unschooling, all of a sudden you are no longer fit for being a good employee, great employee. If your employer Realizes that autonomous workers are good and that you should be independent, that you should think for yourself and create. Now that is a great employee if the employer knows that. But otherwise you should be self employed if you can find an employer who will allow you to do that. And that's what I found myself in the world of employment. I had several, many jobs. And the jobs that I loved were the jobs where I had the freedom to create and do projects on my own. When I had to follow orders, it was miserable and I couldn't wait to get home. And now that I'm doing it on my own, I'm so happy. And I wish I had done it from day one, since my days of schooling too.

Right. And do you think on the social. Because I know a lot of people say that homeschooling or unschooling, like this way of doing it is, you know, the kids need to be around other kids and it's good for them to be social in school. What has been your experience with your kids?

I find, I mean, socializing is definitely something that's necessary in society, but I found. Well, I mean, think about it. We learned how to socialize before school existed. You know, 150 years ago, maybe before school existed, there were ways to learn how to socialize and people did it. We learned from our parents, we learned from our siblings and our aunts and uncles and neighbors and community. And we socialize with everyone around us, not just in school, but all the time. And we learn through that. And if we got through adulthood, because without having to socialize with other kids, because maybe we were in a log cabin in the woods and then we go to the city and we don't know how to socialize, we learn, right? Maybe there were a few mass murderers who didn't learn how to socialize, but that's not because they didn't go to school.

Right?

So anyway, there are natural ways to learn how to socialize. Our kids socialize with each other and with us, obviously, but they also have other relatives and other friends and they play soccer and do other things outside of the house and they go to the playground and learn how to get in line for the slide. And they can do that without school. And learning how to get in line doesn't take 12 years to learn. It's five minutes. This is not hard stuff. And so, yeah, learning how to share and cooperate and play well with others is important, but it's not that hard to learn. And you can do it without school, right?

I love it. I love how you Just question it. So great just to question these things. And like really, I mean, do we really need to be doing this and then willing to try not doing it?

Yeah, well, that's one of the great things that I learned about this. I thought you had to do things a certain way. And then I started reading about other people who are doing it. There are lots of people doing unschooling and they're trailblazers. And I just read about their experiments and I say, you know what? Why not? And then once you do that, you kind of open these floodgates because then you start questioning everything. And it's amazing how much you can question. Like we started wondering, like, how do you get into college if you're unschooled or homeschooled? And so we learned about these other unschoolers who did it. And it turns out it's not that hard to get into college if you're not going to high school. Then I started questioning, well, what if you don't go to college just like high school, but you. More money.

Yep.

And you know, a lot of times it's just a lot of drinking and having sex or having sex. But you know, I'm not going to necessarily pay 20, $40,000 to do that for my kid to do that. I can pay for them to do that a lot cheaper, you know, cheap. So anyway, my point is you question that and then you question everything. Should they go into, what if they don't get a job, if they don't go to school? Well, do they need a job? And then I'm like, well, how are they going to learn how to go into business for themselves when they're adults? And then I say, well, why wait until they're an adult? Why can't they start a business right now? And so we start learning about that kind of stuff, like starting your own business. And you know, how does that work? And so our kids are starting to learn that kind of stuff as teenagers, you know, and even my 8 year old is a natural entrepreneur. It's crazy. He's rich and he's plans for how to spend that money.

So that's so great.

Yeah, we have.

That's awesome. Because it's, you know, I know people listening to this. It's kind of like a lot of this stuff, you know, as you get into it, whether it's health or fitness or simplicity or finances or whatever, that you're like, oh, it just makes sense. Like this gives a child the avenue to actually be in real life and learn how Real life works rather than like studying about real life in a box in a building.

Yeah, you start living real life like right away without having to wait until you're out of college. So, yeah, I mean, and the thing is, I'm throwing out obviously a lot of things all at once, but I didn't arrive there all at once. It was like little bits and pieces. So I don't want anyone to like think, okay, I gotta go change radically if I want to do any of this stuff. It's like you start to question little things here and there and try it out in experiments. And if it's not great, then you can always go back. Our thing was if school, for example, if homeschooling was bad, school is always a fallback position. You can always go back to that.

Right. And what about scheduling and organizing all of your schedules and your life?

Yeah, we don't do that anymore. We used to. You follow for kids and for work and everything else, you follow a rigid schedule and it feels like you have control and then your schedule falls apart and you realize after a while you don't control anything. And school doesn't need to be scheduled. And we've played with a lot of different kinds of scheduling, but we usually fall back to the idea that school and life and work and all that stuff is better when you don't schedule it. So we do as little as possible. Obviously we do have dental appointments and parties with family and friends and stuff like that. Those are all scheduled, but for large parts of the day it's unscheduled and the kids again have the autonomy to figure out what they're going to do. Now that's not always true. Sometimes we say, hey, this is reading time, let's work on reading. But I find that it's best when we get away from that rigid kind of scheduling.

Right. And then you're teaching also the self esteem and confidence and trusting themselves to do what they can do. Right?

Yeah. That you can figure out what you need to be doing or what you want to be doing each moment of the day. Like it's 10 o', clock, what do I need to do now? Now I look at the schedule that someone else created for me, or I can say it's 10 o', clock, what do I want to do now? Let's figure that out. And I think that's a really good thing to be able to do. And again, I think a lot of people grow up and don't ever have that because everything is scheduled for you. And all those decisions are made even in college. Yeah. You have to choose your classes, but eventually you're following a schedule set by someone else. And actually, a lot of times people go to college and they don't know how to set, you know, study because they don't know how to schedule their free time. And so what our kids are going to learn how to do is how to figure that out. And they're still learning that. I don't want anyone to have this idea that we've figured all this stuff out, but we're learning, definitely.

Right? That's awesome. I love your just humility, too. You're like, I don't know, we're figuring it out, and we're just going to let you know what we're doing.

And I tried not being humble and saying I knew everything, and that didn't work. So I have to admit that I don't know everything.

That's so great. Okay, so I have a few more questions I'm really curious on, you know, because you're more blogging and sharing your life and then your wife is homeschooling. So I'd love to hear just more on how. What do you think the most important thing is for a man to support his wife in parenthood as she's the mother of their children?

Yeah. I mean, it's so tough because every marriage and parenting team is different. You have single parents and you have dads who work and moms who stay home and vice versa. But I think the main thing is that we are a team and that we're parenting together and that it's no one's responsibility to do all of this stuff by themselves. And so a dad, if they were raised with the traditional idea that the mom does this and the dad does this, and it's mom's job to be a mother and do all these things, I think that needs to be thrown out the door and say, we're a team and yes, we can split duties up, but let's figure out how to do that the best way that works for everybody. And so the dad should do support the mom in doing all of that stuff. And so that's, I think, the first thing. I think you should also support each other in, like, talking about this stuff. This should be an ongoing, constant conversation about how all of this stuff works, all of the parenting things, and that we shouldn't just go by set ideas of the way I think it should be done, the way you think it should be done, and the way we were raised, all of it needs to be Figured out as we go, and we need to figure it out together. But obviously, if the mom is doing a lot of the work because the dad's working, that kind of thing, then the dad needs to realize that the mom needs some alone time, and you need to be grateful for all the things she's done, because it is a crazy job and vice versa. If the mom's working and the dad's doing all that stuff, he needs alone time, and he needs some gratitude and support as well. Like, when you get home from work, it needs, you know, give that person a break. Let them, like, relax for a few minutes. Well, you might want to relax, but that person's probably had a crazier day than you. So. Yeah, I mean, it really depends on how the home is set up. But I, you know, like, my wife is with the kids more than I am, and so sometimes we will just, like, go out, me and the kids, and let her have some time to just take a nap or read or do something that she wants to do, or we'll let her go out and do whatever she wants while we stay home or whatever. So I think as a team, you have to kind of figure out how to make that work and make sure that your other. That your partner is happy. It doesn't feel like the whole burden is on them. So it's a tough balance to find, but it takes ongoing communication and conversation, and obviously there's going to be some resentment and fights here in their lives. You know, if you're in it as a team, then I think that's the best place to start.

Right. That's great. I love that, just talking about it constantly, that it just needs to be at the forefront of the relationship to kind of figure it out so that you're both on the same page.

Yeah. And what happens when you're not figuring it out and people start to resent each other and then problems start to get worse, and you have to kind of figure out how to figure that out.

Right.

We all know that stuff happens, and it's reality, and you just have to kind of learn how to work together and learn how to figure that out.

And then how do you keep your relationship fresh and alive with so many kids? How do you guys create intimate time for yourself? And do you have recommendations for. For couples on how to make sure that they're getting some sexy time?

Make sure they're getting some. So we have at least, like, once a week, we have a date, like, date night. And I think that's really important because you Know you need that alone time to find some intimacy. And so we're lucky now that we have teenagers who can babysit the younger kids again, we teach them self sufficiency. So that's really important. We also go on walks together and go to the park and do things like that. Another thing I think is important for us is that we have time every evening and every morning kind of alone time there. The kids can come and talk to us and stuff like that, but a lot of times they're on their own. And so like in the morning we have coffee together and ready and the kids will come and say good morning and talk to us, but for the most part they kind of leave us alone. And same thing in the evenings where we have a glass or two of red wine and that's kind of some alone time and they're there with us, but they also go and do their own thing. So I think teaching the kids to be self sufficient and play on their own without the parents need to be with them every minute of the day is really important for the parents to have that time alone and alone together. But yeah, I mean, it's constant work. Keep that intimacy level up. When you have kids who will take all of your energy and attention and you just like are drained and don't have the energy to like feel sexy, you know?

Right.

So another thing that we'll do is like give each other massages so that we can kind of relax at the end of a hard day and just like have create kind of like a spa experience so the person can relax or give each other nap time because you need to be rested in order to feel sexy. You cannot like be tired and stressed out and like exhausted and like be ready to like jump in bed. I mean, not all the time at least. So yeah, you gotta learn. And if you're the dad and the mom has been with the kids as an example all day long, you have to learn how to get her to relax and give her some rest time so that she can feel sexy later. Otherwise you can't blame her if she's like too tired and has a headache.

Right. That's awesome. So the men, the men need to support the women in getting it on.

Switch into lingerie mode, like right away. Get them relaxed and happy and rested. Maybe get a glass of wine and then that helps.

That's awesome. Fantastic. Okay, so one more question. What are some of the biggest joys that you experience in being a father? Like, what do you love most about being a father?

Oh my gosh. Yeah, there's so many things. My kids just crack me up, you know? Like, they say the funniest things and just talking to them and then they ask, like, the weirdest questions about. I don't know. Like, it's just everything about that you assume is just normal to them. It's like a wonder. And I just love that sense of, like, how they don't know how anything works and they're totally dumb, you know.

But.

To listen to them. And so I love that idea that they don't know anything and everything is new and wondrous and full of possibilities and, like, could be fairies, like, living around the corner, or you could possibly turn into a werewolf. They don't know that can't happen. They believe that it could. I love that. And so it always makes me think sometimes I'll just burst out loud laughing at what they believe is possible. And I love that. Anyway, and then we play and roll around on the ground together. And I love that, too, because it just kind of reminds me what it's like to be a kid. I think we're too serious and have too many limits as adults. And so kids break us free of that. I love that.

That's awesome. And it gives us permission to play, right? I mean, like you said, we get so darn serious and everything's so serious, and a kid's, like, flying through the air and a superhero. And you're like, what? Let me get into that world.

Another thing is, if you have a kid with you and you're out in public, you can do the stupidest, weirdest things, like dance and gallop around like a horse and do somersaults and stuff, because you have a kid there. And so they're like, a great excuse to be silly in public because no one's going to question that because you're playing with your kid and they smile. But if you do that when you're by yourself and they're like, who is this weirdo who's galloping around like a horse by himself? Right?

That's so great.

I skip like this down the sidewalk. I'll be skipping even though the kids didn't skip. Like, I'm skipping because it's fun to skip, right?

Totally.

And no one looks at me weird because I have a kid next to me, and they're, like, trying to keep up with me. So, you know. But I'm not weird. But if I was skipping by myself, then they're like, okay, might need to move to the other side of the street. But that's awesome. For that reason.

I love that. Well, we're expecting our first one. I'm seven months pregnant, so that's one of the things that I'm really excited about. And I always say it, and I'm such a nerd, but I'm like, I'm so excited because I am a nerd, and I love to play and laugh and be a dork. And if you have a kid, it's gotta be, like, you have permission to be kind of a dork.

Oh, man. You're gonna be a great mom, and you're gonna love it. So I'm really excited for you, and I think you already have the right mindset, so you're gonna have a great kid, too.

Awesome. Thank you.

Definitely. If you ever want to talk about unschooling and you have any questions, I love to evangelize, so think about it as a possibility.

No, it's like, we're in it. We're, like, going there. We're already. We're not doing it.

If you're doing books to read or websites, let me know.

Okay. Awesome. Thank you. Well, fantastic. So tell us where people find out more about you. Zenhabits.net is there anywhere else that they can find and connect with you and your books?

Yeah, if you click on the about page@zenhabits.net, you'll find the other stuff. I also have a blog that I barely write on called minimalist.com and then I have a site called leobabauta.com where it just kind of has a few things about me and other stuff that I have. So you can go to that. But mostly Zen habits.

Okay. Awesome. Cool. Well, thank you so much for your wisdom and your humor and your humility and your awesomeness and simplicity and just overall goodness.

Thanks for having me. This was definitely a fun conversation.

Awesome. Thank you. Have a. Have a wonderful day, and thanks again.

Yeah. Thank you.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Mama Goddess. Sending you lots of love and blessings. If you'd like to connect more, go to mamagoddess.com until next time. Keep rocking it and have an awesome.