Pamela Slim: How to Go From Corporate Prisoner to Thriving Entrepreneur

Foreign. Hi, Greg Faxson here. In the spring of 2015, I had the honor of interviewing a select group of incredibly brave entrepreneurs. Some of them, like Seth Godin you may recognize, others you may not. All of them have done the hard work, mentally and emotionally of building businesses that support them while making a positive difference in the world. These interviews will give you the inspiration and strategies you need to do the same. I hope they help you take action on something that scares you today. Thanks for listening. Welcome to the Bravery Project, everyone. Today I have on an award winning author, speaker and business consultant who's been an entrepreneur for 18 years and she's helped thousands of entrepreneurs to start businesses that really fill them up and that get them going in the morning and that they love to do. She's the author of Escape from Cubicle Nation, so you might know who I'm talking about already after that. Her latest book is Body of Finding the Thread that Ties yous Story Together. And it just, I read it a few weeks ago and it gives just an awesome perspective on what it takes to navigate this new world of work where you really have to everyone has to be an entrepreneur whether they've started a business or not, because you have to find what is your position in the marketplace and how do you explain in a compelling way what your story is and what you're good at. So the person I'm talking to you about is Pamela Slim. And Pamela, welcome to the Bravery Project. I'm really glad that we're taking this time.

Thanks so much for having me. I'm glad we're taking the time too.

Great. So I'm a little bit curious when people ask you what you do in a casual setting when you don't have someone reading out the fancy bio, when what do you usually tell them if they're not in this entrepreneurial world?

I usually just say I'm an author and a speaker is the simplest way for most people to understand. And then we take the conversation from there.

You kind of gauge if they want to know more. If it was just a one off.

Conversation, oh, that's cool. And move on. Or they might say, oh cool, what do you speak about? Or what do you write about? And then the conversation continues.

Awesome. So cool. So I'm curious, I guess I want to start with because like I said, I just read it. I'm curious why you wrote Body of Work. What was kind of the motivating factor behind getting that book out into the world?

Well, just like you, I am a coach is one of the things That I do. And I've been probably doing it for like, almost as long as you've been alive. If I think that I'm as old as I am and you're as young as you are, I've been doing it about 20 years. And, you know, it's so fun and interesting to have conversations with people about their career and about their work and looking at so many patterns throughout the decades and seeing what, you know, what people were focused on. One of the things that I noticed, especially in probably the last year before I began to do the proposal for Body of Work is as you mentioned, you know, I road escape from Cubicle Nation. So a lot of the specific coaching that I did for a long time was an early stage entrepreneurship of helping people leave corporate jobs to start a business, which involves much fear and bravery. Right. As you know. So one of the things that I started to notice is many people were being influenced by a lot of what was being shared, especially on the Internet, where people were just saying that the only way to be free is to work for yourself, and entrepreneurship's the only way. You don't want to be a drone, just in many ways having really negative images of people who worked in organizations and by organizations that could be an academic institution or military or corporation or whatever. And it actually just didn't really jive with my experience. First of all, it's really brave and difficult and challenging to work for yourself. It's also super rewarding and exciting. But I found a lot of people who might might try that and then decide that it really wasn't the right work mode for them. And many of them would kind of apologize to me or feel like, I'm so embarrassed. How could I go back and get a job like they're selling out or slinking back. And I just thought that really is not the purpose of us being here on earth. I've met many, many people who have done amazing things in different work modes. So I wanted to write something that would be relevant for people who are business owners, but also relevant for people who I is most folks these days in the working world who might be moving between and among different work modes and just provide a conceptual framework that would help people to feel a little bit more security, a little bit more focus, optimism, enthusiasm about the possibilities that they had for the world of work.

Awesome. Fantastic. Yeah, I'd love to dive in a little bit to what you think kind of the thread is that ties your story together, if you're open to it. And where I'd love To start is take me from the moment where you were in a corporate job to actually writing a book about escaping from that situation. What were the steps or what was the journey between that first phase for you?

Yeah, the journey for me was, interestingly, I was a super happy corporate employee. So that surprises some people. I really enjoyed my work a lot. My last full time corporate job was at Barclays Global Investment in San Francisco. So I was director of training and development. And in that situation, I worked with an amazing team. My direct manager and then the VP in our department were just like incredible individuals. They were amazing managers that really made the experience one that was just super, super developmental. And I just felt like I was learning something new and interesting every day. Even though I'm a liberal arts major, I didn't really know much about finance, but. But I really loved learning about the world of learning and training and development. So the first 10 years of my business, when I quit my job, first of all, I didn't know that I was quitting to start a business. I knew that I had just turned 30. This was 1996. I got pneumonia because I had been simultaneous to my day job, I had been running a nonprofit organization, a martial art organization, as a volunteer executive director by evening. So, like, I would leave in pearls and nylons, you know, from downtown San Francisco, and I would run into, you know, the Mission in San Francisco, and I would sometimes teach or take, you know, two or three classes a night. At one point I was doing 17 classes a week, either teaching or taking and doing a lot of recruiting of amazing young people in our neighborhoods, you know, on the weekends, performances. So I kind of was in this crazy breakneck, you know, state of life that was awesome when I was in my 20s. And so I reached a stage where I was like, ready for something new. And I felt like I was also in a pretty toxic personal relationship. So I knew that, you know, certain things needed to change. So that's when I just quit. And my only intention was to take a little bit of time off and to look for another job. And then it was after not really finding one that was interesting that I started to do a little bit of consulting. And that's when I then realized that I, through the work I had done in running the nonprofit, had a lot of entrepreneurial skills. And then I consulted for about 10 years inside bigger companies, but on the human side of business, you know, so that, that was kind of the whole catalyst for Escape from Cubicle Nation is starting out with a positive experience in corporate. But Then working within, you know, over 100 different companies as a consultant over 10 years. And I started to find a particular kind of person in many kinds of companies, even places that were like, best places to work, you know, where people would pull me aside and say, you know, how did you do it? How did you quit your job to start a business? So that was kind of the early rumblings. It was like market research before I realized it was market research for Escape from Cubicle Nation. And, you know, then when I met my husband and fell in love and moved to Arizona, we knew we wanted to have kids and so I didn't want to be on the road all the time. So that's when I cooked up the idea to do coaching and to, you know, I thought, wow, that would be interesting. What if I did some coaching around people in corporate jobs that wanted to leave a startup business? And that was in 2005 when I started my blog, Escape from Cubicle Nation.

Awesome. What do you think was the, was the scariest part about that phase for you, that journey?

Do you mean like the quitting the corporate job part or kind of which part of it?

Between that journey of being working in corporate environment, you went off consulting and then you wrote the book. And I'm curious, is there one part that stands out or one moment that stands out as the one that required the most courage for you?

There were just so many. I mean, it's like there's. Yeah, it's an interesting thing. Like I have a gigantic tolerance for risk, sometimes to my own detriment. Right. That, for example, when I quit my job, maybe I should have been more scared than I was, but I kind of wasn't. You know, I was tired, I was feeling sick. I just was like, something's got to change. And so I just, you know, took that leap. I felt more like unease and dissatisfaction as I was, you know, looking for work. And I, and I, it was a little bit more like dread when I would interview for different positions and just nothing really sounded interesting. Then when I started consulting, I mean, that was just hugely energizing. And actually my first client was my former manager that had left the organization and went to Hewlett Packard. So it was really fun working with her again. And that was a whole adventure. But like a lot of the, If I were to track along the 10 year period, a lot of moments of terror, it was generally around cash flow, right? Making things happen, I would have a really great client. And many stages in, you know, in my consulting, it's like kind of like when I was doing martial arts, you know, it's hard to like isolate one particular time in which there was, you know, a scary time. There have been times where I would look forward and notice that I had no idea, like I had no clients for the coming months. I didn't know how I was going to pay my rent. Right. Or I had some big, scary, hard project that I was doing where I had to be, you know, delivering a class that I was developing and totally stressed out. So it kind of is this whole. It's more integrated in the work, you know, of like times where things are really exhilarating and then times where it's really scary. And the one thing I've learned after now about 19 years is just to expect that those moments are going to be there and then, you know, practice certain things in order to quell the fear.

Yeah, it's interesting. It's kind of like asking an entrepreneur, was there a moment when you were really scared or, or that require courage. It's like, was there a moment where you brushed your teeth in the last, you know, years though? It's like, yeah, there were a few of them.

I'm serious. Like, I was feeling scared yesterday. You know what I mean? Totally, totally feel it. And that's a lot of, I'm sure why you started your project. Right. Things that I found, like I was feeling, you know, woke up, oh my God, you know, I'm doing this 21 city tour. I need to close sponsors, I need to sell tickets, right. You know, oh no, what can I do, you know, so I took a walk like I normally do and I talked to my wife, wonderful husband. And I called my best friend. Right. All these things. And then I began to identify some concrete, strategic, you know, things that I. Actions that I could take in order to move forward. And let me tell you, today's an awesome day. I feel good. I closed a whole bunch of business, you know, like it just, that is part of the process.

Nice. Congrats. That's awesome. Yeah. I think it's interesting that you mentioned you kind of identify the actions. One of the reasons that I reached out to you is because you wrote a blog post recently and the main thesis, I would say of it was that bravery is an output non input. It's a product of doing things right. And then you kind of build this muscle and you get the feeling. And that is in line with everything that I've read psychology wise in terms of beliefs and thoughts and feelings, following behavior. And I think one problem that we can or one trap we can fall into is thinking that we have to summon this feeling or wait for bravery to come upon us and then we'll do the thing. And I love how you pointed out that oftentimes it's the reverse and you can't wait. You're gonna feel brave after you do the thing.

That is a huge teaching. And if I'm thinking about the same blog post, you know, I was talking about a really personal experience of leaving a really toxic relationship. And I tell you, I was so scared. I don't think I've ever been so terrified in my life. Just remember you. I was frightened like, down to the marrow of my bones. And I just remember that, like, if I put myself back in that situation, I remember how scared I was, and I was just totally shaking and I felt so terrible, and I was trying to pack my things to move out. And it wasn't until after, when everything was out and I was out of that environment, that I just remember feeling this huge surge of excitement and power and courage and all of that. So that it was such a powerful lesson. And then I know in the martial arts training that I've done for many years, it's a very similar thing of just seeing the patterns over and over of being really afraid of maybe going in to spar with a certain person or feeling really terrible one day and just like feeling all the, like, grossness and pain and fatigue of going into train. And almost every single time after just walking through that experience and being okay with it afterward is where you start to feel that dopamine and the euphoria. So it was something that I saw, like you, as such a pattern for entrepreneurs. As people would say they're like, waiting to work up the courage or waking, you know, waiting for the moment where they would wake up and just all of a sudden feel totally strong and courageous in order to take action. And that actually is a recipe for never doing anything right.

That's a big red flag, right? As a coach, I would do this thing, but I'm waiting for X, Y, or Z, because at any given moment, there's something you could be doing that would give you more information coming in that would help. So I love that. And I also. It's very. It's a very liberal arts answer to apply your martial arts background to the work you do. I love that. I think there's probably no. I mean, I was a liberal arts student as well, and I think there's probably not a lot of better training grounds for work like coaching and Speaking and things like that than taking a really good diverse load of courses. I don't know if you feel the same way if you had that same experience.

I have totally found that, yeah, I find it to be super, super helpful. And I mean, I live in metaphors that just, you know, as a writer and somebody who loves story, it's funny, I haven't trained martial arts now in probably two years because after I got my black belt and mixed martial arts, my teacher moved the next day to Hawai. So I haven't gone back. And like one of the many reasons I miss it, one is just like being in that kind of shape. But the other reason is I don't have my metaphors anymore. I'm like, God, you know, I like worked out so much stuff so many times through in the years that I did capoeira. It was crazy. Like I would be struggling with something in business or trying to think of an idea and it would just almost always work out in that context. So, yeah, I'm a huge believer in, you know, everybody has different paths in terms of their education and their focus. Some people like, you know, they like real depth of study within one area, which is great, but having variety of inputs. I know as a parent that's something I'm always looking for for my kids.

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I think for anyone listening, it's really easy to get tunnel visioned in to the entrepreneurship thing and whatever you're focused on. And sometimes we end up building ourselves a new cage, right? I mean, I'm sure you've worked with people and done this yourself. And if we fall into this trap, building ourselves a new cage because we're so focused on what we're building and we forget to build the life around that that we want. And it really, I mean, it zaps your creativity because you have no other reference points to compare the work you're doing too. So I think that that's really huge.

Yeah, it is. Definitely. There's so many different components to that and it's right. I've been reflecting on this so much and just my own journey and looking at priorities and looking at people around me. It's really easy. And Martha Beck, who's somebody who I trained with as a coach, talks about compare and despair where you can look around you at different peers and it's like, oh my God, you know, they just have it all together or they put out a program and they sell it out or they're in great shape or whatever. The thing is, right, whatever you think about the life that they have. It's just really interesting to really own and think about what actually is important to you or what's the difference between. It's an important difference. Conscious decisions that you are making about how it is that you're running your life and business in conjunction with your values versus areas where you're actually holding yourself back because of fear. And sometimes it's really hard to tell the difference. Really hard.

What are some ways that you use to distinguish the two?

I think on one hand it is in looking at a consistency of action. So just. I know for myself personally that one of the huge values that I hold is to be an active and present parent. I totally love my kids. I love being around them. We have the crazy busy house where all the kids from the neighborhood are piled all over the couches. I came down this morning and it was like a pile of puppies splayed out all over the couches. Kids having fun. Right? Having a great, relaxed summer. And that's something that I want. I don't want to be working all the time and not have time for that. So I can have that as a priority and I can adjust my workload accordingly. A difference I can see is where I might clearly state some kind of objective where I want to be working towards. I have a new program launching or something like that, and I notice that I'll lay out a plan of action, and if I only complete a couple of steps in that plan of action, it usually is because I'm afraid, right? I'm caught. I'm in a negative productivity pattern. I'm afraid to move forward. So I'll kind of give excuses for it, and I won't really follow it through all the way to the end. So that's where I know that I'm just kind of telling myself stories, and that's where I need to, you know, talk to friends, look at myself in the mirror and. And really make a difference, you know, kind of make that assessment. There's. There's a part of it, too, I think that's just intuitive, right? Where you can just kind of sense, like, you know, I'm actually pretty happy with my results. You know, I feel good about it. I'm glad about who I served, even if it wasn't as many people as somebody else, versus when you're like, yeah, I kind of just wimped out on that. You know, I got scared. I didn't want to send one more email to my list. And so I did.

Right, Right. Cool. So I want to switch gears here. I found that a lot of the people who I respect and I admire have really great morning rituals or daily rituals for the work they do. And I know it's been really important for me. So I'm wondering, do you have anything that kind of is the glue to your day or the foundation to your day that you just do consistently?

Yeah, the one thing I do is actually take a walk. So that's my time. I get a bottle of water with lemon in it, and I do. You know, I walk in my neighborhood and I get up early. You know, in the summertime, it can be a little bit later because the kids don't have school. But when the kids are in school, then I go a little bit earlier. And in having that time of 45 minutes or so, you know, just to be walking, it really. It gets me moving, gets me physically moving so I feel better. It can release some of the morning anxiety that comes sometimes. I don't know why, but it's like things worry can stack up a little bit sometimes, like in the early, the wee hours of the night. So it's a chance just to kind of work that out, you know, like, sort through in my own head, you know, what do I really need to be concerned about? What do I want to focus on? And so that's been a really nice ritual. And then my husband and I just always get coffee for each other. So whoever is the one who. Who's up first will make coffee for the other. You know, so when I come back, if he's still sleeping, then I'll make him coffee and bring it upstairs. Or. Or if, you know, he wakes up when I'm on my walk, then coffee will be ready for me. And that's just a nice. It's like a nice touch point where we just demonstrate to each other, you know, I love you, I care for you. This is a little, you know, warm nectar from the gods to demonstrate that to start the day.

Yeah. Okay, so I have a couple questions on that. So first, what's the deal with the lemon in the water? Is that. Because I keep hearing that. Is that a health thing or is it just a preference thing? Because I hear a lot of people who say, my best friend.

My best friend told me to do it. Yeah, I'm so, like, I don't have the science behind it. So I know whenever you give any kind of nutrition advice without science. Right. We'll wait for the Internet to come get us. So all I can say is, my best friend told me to do It. Because somebody told her to do it. I like the taste, and I think it's supposed to be something that is. We always know water is good, right? So, like, usually the first thing I would do before would be to have coffee first thing. So this way, it's kind of like a way to flush your system. There's something about the lemon that I like. I like the taste of it, and I think it's also supposed to be. Do something positive for your digestion before, you know, you eat something else. Okay. All right.

So you heard it here, so from pants.

Trust me on it. Look up. I'm sure there's science.

I love it. Yeah, that's the one. It's the secret to entrepreneurship is the lemon in the water. If you only take one thing, it's the total secret.

Right. You'll lose 50 pounds immediately and make six figures in your business instantly.

Often. Often here. Awesome. Okay, so I love. I like the walk. And I'm assuming you're not. Are you listening to anything or doing anything during the walk? Okay. It's just you. Yeah, I found that you're so right. There is kind of. There can be a buildup overnight, you know, because I think that we stay pretty engaged throughout the day, and so there's not a lot of time for. There's time for the fear to be there, but not really to creep into the front of your mind. And there's something about those early mornings I tell people. I don't necessarily wake up most days excited or confident or any of that. It's only until after I do, you know, my meditation, my workout, my writing, things like that, that I'm like, okay, it's gonna be a good day. Something about Sundays, too. Do you ever get that?

Just, I'm totally with you on Sundays. It is the weirdest thing. It's actually less now, and maybe just, you know, having kiddos around is not so much. But I remember when I. When I lived by myself, and even when I really enjoyed the work that I did, you know, which was most of my career, I would just get this weird kind of melancholiness on a Sunday.

Yeah. Do you any. Any tips for that? Anything that you found that works well to help with that?

You know, I think part of it is getting used to the practice of just feeling what the feeling is and not trying to judge it or anything, but just notice it. Just let yourself fully experience the emotion, and you can have the little quick to diagnose tags. Do I feel mad, sad, glad, or scared? And based on what that emotion might be. Then why is it, Is there something where you feel you're sad and why are you sad? Well, God, I'm just really tired and I feel like I never get time to myself or I'm mad. Gosh, I always feel like I'm doing things for other people and I never get time for myself. So just learning to listen, I think is a really good thing. And then in general, where possible to do things that are good for self care. So, you know, I love taking hot baths or doing, you know, some kind of a workout. I've certainly done the opposite of like eating a pint of ice cream. I don't drink alcohol, but you know, back in the days when, you know, I might have like one too many glasses of wine and that generally tends to not be a good solution. It can feel good in the short term, but generally like doing something positive or finding an activity that would be really pleasurable, reading a book that I wanted to read or watching a show on Netflix or something that was enjoyable is I find a way to relax into it.

Yeah, I think that's great. We so seldom give ourselves a chance to actually experience the emotion. And I know for me, I drink less and less now, but that's always has been a sign for me of, okay, you're having more drinks than usual. Not to the point where it's alcoholism, but just your, okay, you're getting a beer, you know, more nights than you usually would. Something's probably trying to wake up, you know, that needs to be acknowledged in some way. So I think that's huge. So I'd like to transition a little bit here and ask because I'm really curious, what do you think's been your most controversial idea? What's gotten you the most pushback?

Well, I mean, I think it, I think it depends on to whom. By my nature, I'm not somebody who I'm kind of conflict averse. I love conversation and exploring ideas. I'm not afraid as a coach, of course, to talk to people about what their deepest fears and concerns are. You know, I'm not somebody who goes out and tries to kind of create, you know, drama. But escape from Cubicle Nation as a brand, as an idea is one. I know that for many people in corporate, that was controversial and can push some buttons. It's funny because in finding the name, I went through a class about online marketing and I did a lot of exploration before I finally found the name, which was the name of my blog. I mean, I wrote my blog for two Years before, my publisher approached me about doing a book, but my intention was not to make it, you know, I mean, and the subtitle is From Corporate Prisoner to Thriving Entrepreneur. So there's certainly a little bit of edge there. Right. Corporate prisoner is kind of strong terms. Escape from is, you know, away from pain kind of language. But actually, in reading the book and reading my blog, I've always been pro work. You know, I'm not, like, totally anti corporate. There are certain things that I can notice about that environment that can tend to make people be unhappy. Right. In certain situations if they're not. If they're not aware of it. So there definitely were times, and I found, for example, like when I was positioning myself as a speaker, you know, in a place that, you know, was a corporation, that it was something that would definitely work against me. You know, people thought, oh, my God, you know, we can't bring her in because she's the Escape from Cubicle Nation lady. She's going to tell everybody to leave. And it's actually not at all what my message is. And it's one of the reasons why I was excited to write Body of Work. I was excited to expand that whole kind of brand and discussion because, yeah, I'm pro you finding the work that works for you and pro all of us creating organizations that actually support great work happening and support kind and ethical and generous communication between humans whenever possible.

Yeah, yeah. It is interesting because it's a very powerful name. It brings up a lot of emotions. And as soon as you dive into the book, it's clear, oh, she actually really enjoyed her work. It wasn't typically what you would expect. And so that is interesting. I think you could probably write the same book about Escape from Entrepreneur Nation because a lot of people feel trapped there too. And so it's kind of finding things for you.

That's right, yeah. And what you want, of course, in a title is something that speaks directly to the audience. I know for sure. That was speaking to people who were in the situation where they really felt trapped and overwhelmed. Right. That feels very true and honest connection. But it doesn't mean that everybody in that environment felt that way.

Could you. Could you relate to that avatar? In other words, were there times, significant times in your corporate career where you did feel trapped?

Yeah, trapped. I don't know about trapped personally, because I think I just have too clear a sense that I am the person responsible. Right. For my choices. But definitely times where I felt. Meaning I never felt like I didn't have any other options. And a lot of people I've worked with, some of them have felt that this is the only thing I can do. But I was in situations where I was doing work that wasn't energizing anymore and just in an environment where I felt like I couldn't really, really be myself. And so I can definitely relate to that. But I worked with many thousands of people and having conversations with people in organizations, that was my learning ground, just hearing what people were saying about their work lives.

Great. Yeah. So tell me about the move from a very specific, I'll say niche to more of a personal brand based business. As you've made that transition, tell me a little bit about the thought process and then what you've noticed has changed because it's, it's a, it's a little bit different when you know exactly who you're speaking to as opposed to. Okay, now it's really about, how can I. I'm kind of, I'm. I don't want to lead you into it. But it's a little bit of how do I convey what my journey has been and kind of the unique gifts that I bring together in my body of work and present that as a brand.

Yeah, I mean, it definitely has been an interesting journey and I'm still on it, really, you know, that it was so helpful and I am so tremendously thankful to having that very specific part of my body of work with Escape from Cubicle Nation, where it made it just really easy for me to identify my market, for my market to identify me. You know, I had a really wonderful flow of clients that were coming to me because they knew exactly what that area was. Right. Working with corporate employees who wanted to start a business. And that's just super clear shifting. I think it becomes more where I wanted to have a platform on which I could be experimenting with other things, where I could be integrating different parts of my work life, including the first 10 years of my business where I worked inside companies. And to not have to have people scared because of what I had done in the past, telling the story about how the pieces fit together, you know, the whole picture is really about a love affair with the world of work and helping people relate to and understand how they can create meaningful work. And having worked in so many different work modes, that's where I get so much enjoyment, you know, from just being able to share different experiences and relate to people. It's always, you know, that said a lot of people who have been in my community for a long time, even those that know me Quite well. They don't know exactly what it is that I'm doing. Like, okay, that's cool. So I don't think you're doing that, but what are you doing? They might see different projects that I do, different kinds of events. Right now what I'm in the process of is in really shaping what I feel like. It took me a while to just figure out what was that next area of focus that I wanted to have. And for me, what's really emerging is in helping to really focus people, focus on building community in the bigger sense. Right? So as business owners, how do we really build community in terms of our, you know, our market relationship with our customers, relationship with peers and sponsors and our broader local community, how are we really connected with the broader economic well being of our communities? And so this now I'm like, okay, I think that's really the focus. So that's where I need to tell a clear story about, you know, this is the focus of my body of work and have something that's reflected on my site easier to do that kind of as a sub brand. Right. Like that can be the main story that you see on Pamelaslim.com, but the cool thing is maybe after, whatever, usually it's like five to seven years that I'll spend on one particular topic. The next time that I feel like I want to shift, I won't have to totally redesign my site. And I look at Dan Pink, who's a good friend, as a great example where he's written all kinds of amazing books. Whole new mind and drive to sell as human. He can write books on different, different topics. But you get excited because it's Dan Pink that's writing them. Right? He's going to approach the topic of selling in a totally interesting way because of who he is and his unique ingredients. Just like the way he approached motivation in work in the book drive. So that's kind of what I'm going for to give me more space, freedom, creative flexibility. But to have people know in general that there are certain characteristics about who I am and the way that I work that won't change no matter what kind of work I'm doing.

Does fear come in that flexibility for you? Do you ever have moments where you're like, okay, what am I actually doing here?

Oh, all the time. It is totally uncomfortable. It's totally uncomfortable. Especially when I'm trying not to lock down with very familiar business models that I've done in the past. Right. Like I know how it is that I can Generate business with a certain wonderful part of my market, right, who has a need for my services. But part of what I'm trying to do now is to really explore new things, right? New ways of being new markets. So to be in the middle of looking at my, you know, looking at my projections for the rest of the year and not seeing things totally clear and knowing that I have a family to take care of scares the crap out of me, you know? And I know that that is the space that I need to be in in order to really think creatively, right, and create new things. That's what I want to do. I want to create new ideas. I want to be of service in a different way. And so for me, I have to go through that period of feeling the discomfort, and just sometimes I'm like, God, I wish I would just win the lottery or have a rich uncle or have some business that I sold for $25 million that I can be drawing on. But that. That. That's not the case. So do you. Some days it's really terrifying. And some days. Some days I do. Are you kidding me? That would be awesome.

Yeah, I just have a feeling. Yeah, some days. Some days I think you would. I think you would just, you know, for me, and I think a lot of people do this work. If it's like when. When you stop growing, it's like, just, you know, just let me go. It's over, you know, and I stop getting scared and getting pushed. But the fear comes in, for sure.

That's definitely true. And it's funny. Money is a funny thing because I have many, many, many times walked away very clearly and directly from engagements or opportunities that would completely provide very abundant financial returns. Just super clearly, because I'm like, nope, I don't want to do that. I don't want to work for somebody else, or I don't want to go down that path because it's not aligned with my values. So in terms of just doing work for the money, that's definitely something. I know that it just doesn't work for me. It never has. I have to believe in what it is. I have to have creative domain. I have to feel the freedom to create it my own way. But there's those times where I'm like, oh, it would be so great just to know that there's some huge nugget where if I could just want to chill for a while and hang out with my kids and lay on the grass and look at the stars, that I can do that. And, you know, that that's part of the fun experiment. Like, I think that's definitely part of what I'm looking at is what are new ways I can think about my business in a really smart way so that I could be creating, you know, some good. Some good streams, you know, and I've been really privileged and super blessed, you know, to have. It always works out, you know, I always, always have more than I need. But, you know, there's that creative tension. And I wonder sometimes, am I just telling myself a story that I have to kind of, like, really have to make everything happen? Would I feel that same kind of energy if I did have a million bucks in the bank? Maybe, maybe not. It'd be fun to find out.

Yeah, let me know when you. When you get the answer to that. So would you mind telling people about a time without naming specifics, obviously, about, you know, when you felt like you had this opportunity, but it just wasn't really in alignment with what you wanted to do. One that was hard to turn down.

Yeah, I mean, I've had. Man. Yeah. Like without. I mean, without naming specifics. There have been some, like, super, super wonderful clients that I've worked with, you know, where I've really, really enjoyed the work and where they wanted me to come on full time. And it's like I just even thinking about it and, you know, just even imagine. Just every single fiber of my being said no, and not because they weren't really awesome. And I didn't think that, you know, mission of what they did was amazing, but I just could never imagine myself being in that situation of working for somebody else. That. That's me. That's just kind of the way that I'm. I'm wired. And it really like it. It's probably the thing that scares me the most, which may be foolish. You know, who knows? Maybe. Maybe there is. The thing is working for somebody else, like giving up my creative flexibility and not working for myself, where ultimately, you know, I can decide. You know, I tend to look at things as projects, right? I'll kind of work on a big project, including maybe part of my body of work where I'm serving a particular audience, right. That I'm doing kinds of work for them. But I know as soon as I start to get, you know, kind of bored or wanting something new, that that's when then I can just start to shift and plan something that's totally different. And what I think terrifies me is being in a situation where I will feel responsibility and accountability, right. For an organization I'm working for, but I get to that stage where I really don't want to do the work, and then what do I do, you know, if I need to stay and just do it? That's just a dead, totally deadly zone for me.

Yeah. So the creative flexibility sounds like it's huge for you.

It's huge. Yeah.

Great. So to wrap up this interview, I always like to ask people for their definition of bravery. So finish the sentence. Bravery is.

Bravery is feeling fear and walking through it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Awesome. Can you tell me a little bit more?

I think it goes off of what our conversation was earlier. It's really, really being brave and taking the kinds of risks and talking about things that make us profoundly uncomfortable. Looking at what's happening in our society today with Black Lives Matter, or looking at. Looking at the kind of fear that people have, looking at tough conversations that we have to have with each other, it can feel so scary and make us feel so vulnerable. But when we just feel that and walk through it is where that kind of real deep confidence and courage, I think, begins to build. And we need to do it. We have really big problems to solve, and we need to learn how to walk with that and not just stay in our comfort zone.

Fantastic. Thanks, Pam. I really appreciate your time. It's great to have you on the show.

Thank you.

Thank you for listening to the Bravery Project with Greg Faxson. To learn more about Greg and to subscribe to his weekly Updates, please visit Gregfaxon.com if you enjoyed this episode, send it to a friend or leave a rating interview on itunes. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next time.