Crafting Compelling Narratives That Transform Brands: A Chat with Park Howell (Part One)

Forbes Books presents the Startup Science Podcast with Gregory Shepard, brought to you by startupscience.io. Greg is an entrepreneur who has built and sold 12 businesses. He's a recipient of 4 private equity awards and is a featured TEDx speaker and Forbes author. Here's Gregory Shepard.

Every founder needs to tell a story. And my guest this week has been called the world's most industrious storyteller. Mark Howell has over 35 years of experience growing purpose-driven brands by as much as 600%. As host of the weekly Business of the Story podcast and author of the bestselling books Brand Bewitchery and The Narrative Gym for Business, he's helped thousands of leaders amplify their impact through the power of strategic storytelling. I first met Park at a conference and thought, this guy is the bee's knees. So I'm honored to have you on the podcast, Park.

Oh, Greg, thanks for having me. And you know, I think that's the first time in my entire career I've been referred to as the bee's knees. So thank you for that.

Well, you are. You're— and you're also a cool cat. Can we just dive right in?

Let's do it.

All right. What's the most important thing for a startup founder you get right when crafting your brand story?

Yeah, the most important, important thing is, number one, there's 2 most important things, Greg. Number one, your story is actually not about you, but it's about your audience and where they are on their journey and how you are there to help them get what they want. And the second thing that a lot of founders, a lot of, a lot of business people, the mistake they make Is they tell the story about what they make versus what they make happen in the world. And I always say that, you know, stories about outcomes always trump stories about offerings because I hate to say it, spoiler alert, but most people actually don't care about you and your brand and your offering. They want to know what you can make happen in their life.

That's great. That's a good point. It's true, right? They don't want it. Nobody, nobody ever wants you to talk about yourself. They want to hear about them and, and how you relate to them.

Absolutely. And you know how it is. I mean, we've all started a business. You in particular. I mean, you really can appreciate this is you spend a lot of time and energy creating this wonderful widget, SaaS platform, coaching service, whatever it is. And we're all very proud of our work, right? But we should never lead with that in our stories because people don't share that pride. They are more interested in like, okay, dude, that's fantastic, but what does it mean to me?

That is such a good point. So how can early-stage companies who don't have a long track record establish this credibility through storytelling? Because I— the, the first— the part of the brand story that we were just talking about is like, how do you express credibility? Right. How would you advise that they do that even if they haven't had a track record?

Gosh, you know, I would begin with the old Simon Sinek thing. Start with why. You know, what's your origin story? Why did you create this in the first place? What drives you beyond just making money? And let's face it, sure, founders all want to make a lot of money and get filthy rich on their product, but there's always something else that is driving them to go out and actually help people, help businesses, whatever that is. So there's nothing wrong if you don't have a major track record because you're early to the game, then tell that story, that origin story as to why you made this in the first place. Who is that core audience that you were going out to help? What was the major problem that you were helping them overcome? And therefore, what is your solution moving forward? And boy, there's nothing like that because people can't argue with that origin story. There's a track record built into that origin story, and then they can appreciate where you are in this startup mode of, all right, we're just getting our feet under our, you know, our feet under our legs, under ourselves. Maybe we're in it 6 months, maybe we're in it 6 years and still struggling to find that traction. Go with— I'd start with that origin story.

So the origin story is sort of basically your As you said, Simon Sinek's why, like, why am I doing this? It's not necessarily what am I doing it for, but why am I doing it in the first place, right? Like, in my case, I'm trying to help founders succeed, to help with wealth inequality across marginalized groups, right? And so that is my— if I don't have a track record, I start with that as the roots of my why. Is that correct?

That's a really great way of thinking about it, Greg. You know, in my case with the business of story, I'd been in the advertising, branding, marketing world for 30 years, and I can't tell you how many times I would sit through these horrendous meetings and PowerPoint presentations and feel, Greg, like I was completely wasting my time and burning all of these brain cells trying to understand what in the hell this business person, this leader was trying to tell us. And I would look around the room and I would see the same problem. I mean, really smart, brilliant people just completely checking out and wasting their time with these communications. And it seemed like it just kept getting progressively worse. More technology took over, the more our brains got completely focused on this online world. It took us away from that offline human connection and people just started yammering on. with data, charts, graphs, opinions, and assertions. And I figured out, there's got to be a better way to do this. You know, how can we actually excite people in the shortest amount of time possible? And it was all in answer to the question, Greg, when was the last time you were bored into buying anything? And if we're boring our audiences out there, we are in trouble. And that's where I started. studying story and found these frameworks that really have this powerful connection to that limbic problem-solving, decision-making, buying brain. And that's why I started a business of story.

Yeah. So if you don't have a track record, basically tell them what flips your pancakes. Yeah, right. And then, yeah, go into that. And then from there, drive to get, get them involved emotionally, get them involved as a human. Instead of as— so apply to the persona instead of the ICP.

Absolutely.

Right? Instead of the ideal fucker. Yeah, okay, got it. That's really good pointer. So let's go into this now, which would be the next natural progression of this series of questions. What are some of the common storytelling mistakes that you would hear a startup make? Like, you know, what are the most common, you know, ways that they explain it? You were just talking about sitting at a table And having your brain drained, right? What are some of the most common scenarios of those that you see that you're like, oh, this is just painful?

So we started with the story's not about you, it's about your audience. So that's number one. Number 2, it's not about what you make, but what you make happen. Number 3 is a lot of times founders, and especially in the business-to-business world, very smart people never get out of exposition. And what I mean by that, they never get out of act one. They and, and, and, and, and their audiences to death. And after about that third and, man, we just check out because our limbic brain is a problem-solution brain. It's like, dude, you haven't even gotten to the problem yet. So what's going on? So we need to turn our messaging from non-narrative that again, our limbic brain detests into narrative setup, problem resolution, and be able to do that very quickly. Because we have learned that this limbic brain is wired that way. It's like the algorithm to making meaning. If you and, and, and me in exposition and never get to your point, then there's no meaning involved and it will check out. So that's the next real big thing. Ask yourself whenever you're giving a presentation, are you and, and, anding your audience to death without a setup, problem, resolution that truly makes your communication narrative?

I mean, it's interesting. I was talking to a neuroscience, right? I was looking at a deal the other day, an investment deal, and the guy was a neuroscientist and he was talking about this and he said, he used some analogies that I thought were really, really fitting. And I'm just gonna ask you if you think that you agree. He says, you know, when you walk outside of a grocery store and you see somebody with a clipboard, your immediate reaction, whether they're giving you something or asking you to vote on something or buy some whatever, your immediate reaction is no. Immediately, because your brain is trained to say no, because your brain is a gatekeeper. And it usually thinks, well, if I've seen it before, I don't want to see it again. The answer is no. So the trick is try to get past the gatekeeper and get to the back of the brain where all the logic actually— where the questions and the answers and the logic actually takes place. So what you're saying is, if I understand you correctly, is that you— the worst way to get yourself in that is to get trapped up with the gatekeeper. by saying something they don't care about, and the brain is simply just going, no, I don't care, they're just talking about themselves, or, and, and this is impossible, confusing, whatever the thing is that turns off the front of the brain, and do a straightforward V-line to the back of the brain by tricking the front of the brain that it hasn't heard it before, or that it cares because it's more emotional than it is abstract in business. Is that— is that— Yeah.

And the way I boil it down, Greg, is, is this— and I'm no neuroscientist by any stretch, but I have read and consumed so much information on this— that our brain basically has one function, and that is the survival of our being. Everything else is gravy. It's like, okay, what's happening right now? Like that window over your shoulder right there. If some big dude came and knocked on that window, your brain would go in overmode. You would completely forget about me in this conversation. You would look over your shoulder. You would wonder, is this a fight or flight or freeze situation? What do I have to do to protect my being? That's what your subconscious limbic brain is doing. Then you notice, yeah, oh, it's your pal Joe who helps you do the show, and he's dressed up as a clown for— to surprise you for your birthday. All of a sudden now the world is wonderful and you're having a great time. Well, we have to understand that we as communicators are hitting that negativity Biased brain first and foremost. It's going to look at us and say, is this a flight, fight, or freeze situation, or is there actually an opportunity here? That's why that setup-problem-resolution dynamic tickles the back of that brain. You know, Jonathan Haidt, one of America's foremost social psychologists, said— and I love this line so much— he goes, our brains are story processors, not logic processors. We have to understand the impact first of that data, of that software, of that offering, and then we level it up into that logic, you know, frontal cortex brain. But we buy with that emotion first. So that's what we're trying to do is get to that back of that limbic brain, hook it emotionally, and then level it up into the logic.

So it's almost like a hack, right? It's almost like a A cognitive bias hack, right? To, to get past the, the no, the naysayer and get back to the part that's like, okay, this is something I can actually think about.

It absolutely is. And you know what? Your audience doesn't even know this is going on because it's happening in their subconscious. You want to open a story loop by inviting them in with a statement of agreement. Here's what we want to have happen in our life, you know, but We're not currently having that happen because of these major obstacles we need to overcome. Therefore, here's the way forward. And, you know, founders in the startup world, this is a marvelous little messaging tool called the and, but, therefore that enables them to use this algorithm, a story of setup, problem resolution using just these 3 basic words: and, but, therefore. That's how you first hook that brain. Get it leaning in. And, you know, Greg, you may have experienced that during my presentation at the ACE Tech Conference. I use the ABT throughout that whole thing because all I was trying to do is get all of those startup leaders leaning in, and then I could dole out the information, first using an anecdote to make my business point, then backing that up with the numbers to prove it to the logic brain. But always start with the heart. The head will follow.

So this leads me to this. Okay, so everybody's guilty of doing and, and, and, right? Everybody wants to tell their vision, and there's so much to a vision when you're the person that came up with it, right? And you're sitting there, oh, it's this and this, you know, you sound like an infomercial. And it does this and that, and that's not all it does, this, this, right? Um, how does somebody get around that trap? How does somebody talk about their vision and not fall into the and, and, and? How do you frame a vision as a As an ABP.

Well, let's, let's give your audience an example, Greg, and let's use you. Can I put you on the spot here?

Yeah, totally. 100%.

All right. Let's talk about this show right here or start it. Let's talk specifically about this show and your audience. I would like you to identify who is your number one audience that you are trying to reach with this show and be as specific as you possibly can.

Early-stage founders. So pre-A round founders.

What do they want relative to the content from this show?

They want an experience that comes out of coffee talk type conversations.

Okay.

Right? So that's just sitting down chatting about the business of story and how to use your framework and kind of like off, you know, as if they're listening as a fly on the wall.

Okay. So you've got early stage founders and they're looking for additional advice that they would get If in an anecdotal situation, you know, like you're saying, if they were in a room full of leaders and founders to learn from other people, and why is that important to them?

Because these are the things that aren't taught in accelerators or universities. These are conversations that happen with experienced people between experienced people, because only 2 experienced people can ask each other questions and elevate the conversation like that because they have experience.

So you are an early-stage founder and you want to be able to tap into experienced leaders that have seen there, been there, and done that so that you can 10x your growth faster than ever. Fair enough? Statement of agreement.

Yeah, you're the, you're the space in between the topics.

There's our, so there's our and statement of agreement. We've identified the audience, what they want, And why that's important to them. So we understand who they are.

Okay.

And we appreciate what they want and why that's important to them. Now the but, here's the plot twist, but why don't they currently have it? What problem are you currently solving? And I think you said it, you are sharing like minds that they cannot get at regular incubators. Is that right?

Yeah, yeah.

So you are an early stage founder and you want to be able to tap into brilliant minds that have experienced what it takes to 10x the growth of your startup. But you can't find those minds because you are not in these, you know, closed-knit situations where you can really benefit from this knowledge. Therefore, how often does your show air? Is it once a week?

It airs twice a month.

Therefore, now twice a month, You can have access to some of the top minds in the startup world right here on Greg's show. And he does this, this, this, this, this. You see, what we did here is we identified the audience, what's— what they want and why that's important to them. So that's our shared statement of agreement. You get your audience nodding yes. You know, you understand me, you appreciate what I want, but you don't currently have it because of this problem. Oh, we've just demonstrated empathy. Now we can appreciate what, you know, the problem is you are solving for. Therefore, picture what it's going to be like when you can plug in these brilliant minds from around the world to help you grow through Greg's podcast. Through Greg's podcast, Gregory Shepard does not come in till the very end of that statement of consequence. So this way we remain focused on your audience. The problem that you are solving for them from their point of view, picturing what it's going to look like when they overcome that problem through the product or service I have to offer. That's the and, but, therefore.

I gotta say, like, if I wasn't afraid I would lose you on the podcast, I would say just stand up and throw your mic down because you could just drop the mic after that. Everybody heard that. That was beautifully done. But I have another question. So then what about values, culture, all of the things that have to do with sort of what— when you talk about your why, you're also talking about your values and your culture, right? You're talking about what flips your pancakes, right? So in my case, it's wealth inequality and inclusion and environmental issues and sustainability issues, stuff like that. So what part does that play in the story, in this process that you just went through?

Well, we use the process. I want you to think of the ABT like the chassis of a car. It could be a race car.

Right.

You know, that chassis still kind of looks the same. You got an engine, a powertrain, 4 wheels, you know, and this body to take you— this chassis to take you places. Or it could be a dump truck. Pretty much the same thing. Motor, drivetrain, chassis, wheels. The ABT can be used on virtually any sort of messaging you have. So let's say you're not selling a product or service or a widget or a SaaS platform at the moment. Your audience is more interested in your vision. All right, let's make your vision the brand, but it's got to be told from their perspective. So again, who's your audience? You got to do that heavy lifting up front. What do they want relative to your vision and why would that be important to them? But why don't they have that and therefore How is your vision the way forward in order to help them get that? So you could use this ABT. It is literally a narrative framework that you could use virtually in all of your communications. It's not always a story in and of itself in that it doesn't necessarily have a timestamp, a location stamp, a central character, but it uses the 3 forces of story of agreement, contradiction, And consequence that, again, that limbic problem-solving buying brain loves. So if you are now up there and you've shared your vision, now you want to talk about the mission you're on, then again, assemble that message using the ABT. And then what I love to do is say, all right, after you've done that, after you've set the stage with your ABT, sprinkle in some personal anecdotes or some customer anecdotes. That's when you use the short little story, which is essentially an expanded ABT with timestamp. When did it happen? Location stamp. Where did it happen? Single central character that your audience can relate to. Who is that person? Introduce them. What happened? What was the surprising outcome that makes your business point for you? So I like— I call those the 5 primal elements of a short story. You begin with an ABT to set the stage, and you can tell that ABT in under 15 seconds. And then you follow it up or illustrate that ABT problem-solution dynamic in action through a true story well told. And you can tell that story in under a minute. So in less than 90 seconds, you can use this one-two punch of the ABT narrative framework to hook them, and then an anecdotal story to reel them in. You're playing totally to their emotion. You've got them opened up. And now you can start, you know, trotting out your logic and your reason and your data, because all you're doing is proofing out the emotional story that you connected with your audience.

Let's step back and apply this to some scenarios. So let's say you want to do the ABT to attract super awesome talent that, you know, everybody wants to hire. You would essentially take the same story, right? And you could apply it to that conversation.

Absolutely correct. So hypothetical, well, who are we talking to? Are we talking to a programmer that is just like, she's just unbelievable and a lot of people are going after this particular person and you've done your homework and you really want her, but you're not, you're not really sure yet as to what's going to push her buttons to get her to come in. So what you want to do is, you know, welcome Sally. You know, it's wonderful to have you here. And I can imagine you've got 15 years of experience doing this in Silicon Valley, and you're looking for that next level of job that gives you the challenge of writing the code and the outcomes that you're seeking with the life balance that you're looking for, right? She goes, yeah, you know, Greg, that's exactly what I'm looking for. But you don't currently have it, or you haven't found it early in your career because everyone's working you to death. Therefore, picture yourself you know, here and working at, at your pace from either here at home or whatever, you're going to now pay that off with our program because we have a unique way of treating our folks here. For instance, let me tell you about Greg. He came in 2 years ago and he was so burned out from his life at eBay that he thought he was going to give it all up until we showed him what he could do here. And he thought we were just kidding. Until in September of 2021, he and his wife had a child and realized that he needed 6 weeks off to really attend to his family. We gave it— we happily gave it to him. Now, Gray here is one of our top performers. Is this something, Sally, that would be of interest to you in your career? So what we've done is set it up with an ABT, you know, focused on one problem at a time, work-life balance. And then said, we can deliver on that. Let me prove it to you by telling you a quick anecdotal story about Greg that she could relate to. And I've done all of that. Now I'm just winging it right here, but I do that in the first 90 seconds of that interview and I get her saying, well, yeah, you actually understand me. You appreciate what I'm saying.

I mean, it's totally a bypass, right? Because the front of the mind isn't— there's nothing for it to block. It needs a conversation and that has to happen in the back of the brain.

It needs that emotional conversation. What's in it for you?

So let's apply this to a pitch, right? So let's say now you have to pitch, you have to pitch an investor, you have a pitch competition, or you have, you know, an investor says, okay, I'm gonna give you 10 minutes. Tell me. You could use essentially the same thing, but instead of the candidate, You're talking to the investor, right? So you're using the same structure. So can we run through one of those real quick?

You are going to be my investor. All right, Greg. And I'm going to ask you to invest $2 million into the business of Story. All right. So the first thing I need to do is I got to understand you. What's in it for you? Why? Why would you remotely want to do this? Well, one thing I've learned about you is you are about equality. So potentially I would, I would, I would position that pitch again from your point of view. And I would say, let's do a problem solution dynamic around equality. Greg, you know, thank you so much for being here today. You— it's a true honor for me because you have such a long pedigree of success in this world. And I know that equality is like at the top of your list when you are finding important investments in the world. But it is so hard in this day and age to find that kind of equality across the board because everybody seems to be in it for the money. And we live in such a divided world that it's hard to vet, you know, the proper investment for your portfolio. Therefore, I want you to picture the power of story in all of our customers' lives and how it creates understanding, and empathy in the world to buoy the very equality that you wanna see in your portfolios. Greg, I can show you over the past 10 years, from major iconic brands to individual leaders, how our product service offering and the 3 narrative frameworks we teach creates that understanding in people, even in the most divisive of circumstances, to find that common ground and build equality across the board. For instance, let me tell you about Shirley, and then I won't— I'm just vamping now. But then I would tell you about a story and I would show it to you in action. Now, I would have completely boiled down that ABT because I was just winging it there. I would have really worked on it and got that down to be as concise as possible. So now that your brain and anybody else sitting in that room has a singular narrative, Park is here to solve the problem of equality. In communication, finding that common ground. And then I would lever that as much as possible. I wouldn't roll out 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 different problems that I solved through my work. There are plenty that we all solve in our work. I would start with one, the most poignant problem-solution dynamic, and I would stay on that until I've got them completely bought into that problem-solution dynamic. Get them only focused on one thing. at a time. That's how I would use the ABT.

So let's keep using these different scenarios because we talked about what it is, and now I'm trying to talk about applications. So we talked about the application in hiring good talent, we talked about the application in your pitch, right? So let's talk at the— about the application of the business of story and the ABT to product and design. So if you're talking about your product instead of your company, Would you go— I mean, this, it sounds like it just fits for everything. You just use the same algorithm, if you will, and then put different places in the blanks. Is there any nuance between talking about it from that perspective?

Yeah. Think about it this way, Greg. You're exactly right. You can use the ABT across the board. It's even a strategy tool. So say you're going into a meeting and how many meetings have we been in that go down Several different rabbit holes, and you come out of it 90 minutes later and you feel like you've accomplished nothing. If nothing else, you maybe have created 5 more concerns you now have to deal with. You use the ABT to set the agenda for that meeting. All right, we're coming in to solve one problem and one problem only. We may have 3 or 4 fires we have to push, you know, put out in this meeting, but they all level up to what? What do they trend to towards that one problem-solution dynamic? Then you start that meeting with the ABT. Ladies and gentlemen, we are here because we've got version 4 of our SaaS platform rolling out in 2 months, and we are extraordinarily excited about the new features in it. But we have 3 major bugs that still need to be fixed. Therefore, in the next hour, we are going to determine what we need to do with our coding team to be able to do this and this. So we got bug fixing. You know, we got the excitement of version 4 coming out, but we got a bug we gotta fix, or in this case, 3 bugs. We'll just call it bug fixing. And now what is our way forward? When anybody in that meeting gets off track, you just pull 'em back into your ABT. Nope, we're not here to talk about that. We are here to talk about fixing these bugs. So that's just one example of how you can use the ABT as a strategy tool. It's also an amazing story listening tool, and I'm sure you've been there like we all have, where someone comes in and they vent. They're so frustrated something's gone completely sideways in their life, in their career, in their project, and they just come in and vomit on you, right? You spend like ten minutes and you go, uh huh, uh huh, uh huh, uh huh.

Or they're just vetting.

Or maybe it's a customer doing that, and you're going, uh huh, uh huh, uh huh. At the end of that, you filter it through your ABT mechanism and you say, okay, right, Greg, what I heard you say, you want this and it's important because of this, but this is the thing that's standing in your way causing unbelievable frustration. Therefore, what we really need to focus in on is doing something this or curing for this. And then 3 things happen when you do that well. Number one, They'll go, oh my God, you actually said that better than I did. Which leads to number 2, you actually listened to me. There's nothing that builds trust faster than listening. And then number 3 that sometimes happens, not always, but when it does, it's like the most important outcome because you've already established that trust. They said, you said that so well, Greg, that I forgot to tell you one other thing. And it's always that one other thing that's the real problem. Everything else has just been symptoms leading up to that. So the ABT is a fabulous problem solution listening device once you really get it down. And then of course you can use it in all of your communication, including social media, landing pages. I mean, you name it, you just keep using the setup problem resolution dynamic.

I love that. And I want to get to how you can use ABT to handle failure. But we have to take a break. Coming up in the second part of my talk with Park Howell, the founder of Business of Story, Park shares how Joseph Campbell's theory of the hero's journey can help B2B companies.

The hero's journey is way too woo-woo for lots and lots of B2B business minds. And I say to them, you know, B2B doesn't necessarily mean business to business. It quite often means boring to bored.

The Startup Science Podcast with Gregory Shepard is brought to you by startupscience.io. Founders can log on to startupscience.io and use code Forbes to get free access. To connect and find out more about Greg, go to gregoryshepard.com. The Startup Science Podcast is a production of Forbes Books.