Episode 06 | Part One: How Do You Make Them Thirsty

Gregory Shepard, an entrepreneur who's built and sold 12 businesses, a recipient of 4 private equity awards, TEDx speaker, and Forbes author. This is The Boss Podcast with Gregory Shepard.

Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, Richard Branson, all have accomplished amazing things. Legendary visionaries. But visionaries need to be leaders to drive results. This week, I wanted to take a break from talking to investors, entrepreneurs, and CEOs and talk a little bit about leadership. I have an epic guest joining me today, professional basketball coach Phil Weber. Phil has guided teams everywhere from New York, Phoenix, and all the way to India. He's a leadership consultant for the NBA Players Association. And the author of the upcoming book, How Do You Make 'Em Thirsty? Phil, thanks for joining me today.

Greg, thanks so much for having me. Thanks so much.

Before we talk about leadership, Phil, can you tell us the inspiration behind the book that you're coming out with, How Do You Make Them Thirsty?

You know, having consumed, I don't know how many, I don't say this to impress you, but I guess more so to impress upon you hundreds of books on the science of personal achievement is it's been a journey for me. But, I didn't think I had a platform for it. It wasn't until I actually heard another podcast where the person said that phrase, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. And then, he posed the question, but how do you make them thirsty?

That's brilliant.

So, Greg, what happened was Every player is different. Every organization is different. There's different cultures. Hopefully what I've done is been able to have helped others believe in themselves so that they're able to be the best version of themselves. So it wasn't until I heard that title that it resonated with me. Maybe I do have a message to help people to improve, to look at themselves differently. And, uh, so I, so I, so I ventured off. I wrote a— I wrote an outline, and it really, really actually went quickly.

Huh. I love the title. You mentioned cultures. What cultures have impacted you the most during your time being a coach in your coaching career, and then why?

It starts from the, the top down. When you guide a company that you're helping, it always starts from the top. And they can implement core values. They can set the stage for what everybody else does. I've been impacted by, probably more so than anything else, was the Miami Heat most recently. It flowed from Mickey Arison and Pat Riley's vision in the mid-'90s. And, you know, Coach Erik Spoelstra now seamlessly has been able to keep it going. All a culture really is are the stories that the main people tell. That's all they are. That's really all it is.

Huh.

And let me give you an example. So in the playoffs, Udonis Haslem, who was a player for the Heat, longtime player, one of their main guys, his jersey will go up in the rafters in American Airlines Arena. But he hadn't played because he's later in his career. And, for 2 months, he hadn't gotten in a game. Now, it's the playoffs. All of a sudden, because of injuries, because of foul trouble during the game, Erik Spoelstra, Spo, had to put him in. And, he went in there and in his minutes, whatever minutes those were, got some rebounds, got some points, but he played well. And, they ended up winning the game and it was probably a game that Dwyane Wade had— He was the best player. Yeah, but he— well, Dwyane Wade probably had 30 and 15 and LeBron had whatever, but the first thing after the game, coach talks, Bo talks, and the first thing that he'll talk about is how, you know, look at UD, his nickname, you know what I'm saying? Look at UD. He came in every day knowing that he wasn't necessarily going to play, but he worked harder than almost anybody in here. His attitude was absolutely tremendous. And when that time came for him to contribute and be ready, he was there. And that is what the Heat culture is all about.

So speaking of core values and culture, what do you feel are the most important core values for a quality culture?

Well, you know, again, I'm going to take a page out of the Heat's book. In that they had 5 main core values: family, sacrifice, be accountable, commit to greatness, and compete with class. But the fruit of that, Greg, I think is the most important thing of it in their culture. And they value family, meaning that some people there have been there, you know, unheard of 25 years. Unheard of. And the people in their culture have one agenda. There's no hidden agendas and, you know, what is it for me and stuff. Now, everybody wants to succeed and everybody wants to improve, but they all feel safe. And when you feel safe, you're able to flourish. So everybody is pulling in the same direction.

When you say feel safe, do you feel— are you saying like feel safe to Make mistakes, feel safe to go for it, that kind of thing? Or what? Absolutely.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, all elements of safety. Your job is safe. They're not going to— oh, you make a mistake, they're going to— you've built up that emotional bank account with them where it's huge. And when you are in that— and we were dating at the time, but now my wife, She just knows about that culture and she felt it. You know, she just felt the difference. Yeah, she feels it.

That's like a family, right? Because, you know, family can forgive you, right?

Yes, yes, absolutely.

That's crazy. So let me ask you this. So how would you describe your leadership style?

I've heard so many quality quotes that I really try to embody. And I think I don't try— I guess I should restate that because we don't ever try to do anything. We either do or we don't. We always get a result. It's not what you preach that matters. It's what you tolerate that defines you as a leader. So, you better be mindful of what goes on under your leadership. You better understand that if you allow it, then you're promoting it.

Mm-hmm.

And, I was really mindful of that. I also feel that there's a certain element of comfort that you have to create. Not necessarily easygoing, but you have to be personable. I'll take a page from Mike D'Antoni, who I worked with for 10 years with the Knicks and with the Phoenix Suns. And what he would do every single day is he would walk in to practice and I would watch him as he would touch up every single one of the players. He would touch them up, meaning, meaning he would say, you okay? Everything good? How you feeling today? Maybe joke with one or two, but do you see what that resembles? It resembles safety.

Yeah, it makes them accessible.

Yeah, and it also, it's the safety and that, hey, you're a person. You know, all leaders lead people. You have to have an— I think you have to have a very high emotional intelligence to be a great leader.

Right. So I heard something that I say a lot, and that is that, you know, people work for people. They don't work for teams, they don't work for companies, and they don't work for products. They work for other people. So I think like the connection between making yourself accessible provides the safety, right? And then the safety provides the accessibility. And these 2 things allow somebody to— allow you to lead somebody because they're willing to follow.

No question. You know, it was funny because coaching in Phoenix for 9 years, and then I was Mike's first hire with the New York Knicks. my buddies were killing me, you know, even though I was from New York. They're going, oh man, dude, you're getting ready for some cold winters. And what my standard reply was, but Mike is my weather.

Wow.

And what he does is he creates a culture, you know, an environment of winning. And I know what I'm going into every single day. And to me, there's no other— better thing than when you wake up every day, you, you love what you do and who you're working with, and you're in the foxhole together.

So that whole concept of like wanting to follow because you have a good leader, you're saying part of that is giving people a monitored sort of expectation, right? So they're not going to be surprised when they walk in the door because are they dealing with Abbott or Costello that day? Right.

Yeah. You know what's so interesting? And I won't use any names, okay? Because I don't want to presume to do anything. But I heard something interesting about what you just touched on. And that is, let's say, for instance, a person only 5% of the time is absolutely maniacal and has anger issues. Only 5%. And the other 95% is the nicest person in the world. But guess what? That personality is 100% controlling because you are always worried about that 5%.

Yeah, that makes sense, right? Because it's unpredictable.

Yeah. If you're in Florida and you don't know, you're out running and you don't know when that afternoon shower is coming, but you may get drenched.

Yeah, exactly right. And if you're a player, right, and you get in, you're like, okay, is the Is the coach any good? Who am I dealing with?

Exactly. Consistency is key. We had a— we would have a— we would have a saying. Now, we were really successful in Phoenix and we averaged 60 wins. And some people say that the way we played, thankfully because Mike's leadership and Steve Nash and a host of young talented players, that we kind of changed the game a little bit in the NBA. But we had a— we had a saying that we don't get too high and we don't get too low. This too shall pass. Those are 4 words that are true, good and bad. Absolutely.

Yeah, I have to tell myself that all the time, actually.

Well, they're powerful words and it's so true. But, embracing that even-keel approach, now it doesn't deviate from the level of intensity that you want to play at and all that different things. That should always be at a high level. Right. But, whatever comes at you, hey, you deal with it and you move on.

So, I want to talk about this first. So, in business, if you were to sort of compare coaching to business, you have the head coach that's like the CEO. And then, underneath that, you have the assistants and they're the different functional area leaders that specialize in different things. And, in business and in athletics, they share this commonality where you're dealing with super highly exceptional individuals. Right? So even exceptional individuals need that extra kick sometimes. So when you're in a situation where, you know, people get worn out, people get burned out, that kind of stuff happens even to the best, what do you do at that point to motivate them and motivate the team to step it up?

I think you need to celebrate small victories when you see them doing something, just because you know that those moments may be coming down The pike. I think there needs to be a level of preparation for the moments. Like, the great ones, the great ones thrive in the boredom, the pain, and the frustration. They thrive in that. They, they know it's coming. They're willing participants to go through it with vigor.

Yeah.

And understanding that and preparing them for that Before. So then when you get to that moment in time, you're, here we are, okay, this is what we talked about.

Yeah.

This too shall pass. This is just a point in time that we're going to get past. And, when we get through this plateau, I mean, it's going to be amazing. But, I really think confidence, instilling confidence and catching them doing things correctly, where you're developing a deeper and deeper relationship.

That's a good one. I've noticed in athletic teams and in non-performing athletic teams and non-performing business teams that they're focused more on what people are doing wrong and they're paying attention to that than what they're doing right and celebrating those successes, which you brought up earlier. I think that that's really wise. I just wanted to call it out so people that are listening just pay attention to that. Let me ask you this question. When it comes to your work and as a leader, how do you sort of measure your own performance at work? How do you get the benchmark of where you are, measuring where you are up against your own performance? How do you figure out that gauge as a leader?

In coaching, I think it would be by a player's improvement.

Yeah.

And, from a team concept, you're always evaluating yourself. Every single game, you're painstakingly going over that to see how you improved or you did that work, that didn't work. Why didn't I see that? To me, one of the most powerful things I've ever learned is that questions direct. Are you empowered or disempowered? I don't know. What kind of questions do you ask yourself? So, as I'm watching a game that I just helped coach. I'm looking at all our decisions prior to that and then judging it against the preparation. And can I, you know, can I ask a better question about how to prepare? How can I prepare differently? Questions are, you know, right now, and to go into my little shtick from Dennis Waitley, The Psychology of Winning, right now—

Oh my God, I love Dennis Waitley.

Oh, he's, he was, he's amazing.

Yeah, he—

I lived with his book in my car I wore out those tapes.

Yeah. A lot of people forgot about Dennis Waitley, but he was amazing Olympic coach. That guy's—

Oh, yes.

Psychology.

I mean, I love that.

Yeah.

So, right now, Greg, stop thinking. You can't do it. You're thinking to yourself in 600 to 800 words a minute. You can't. Stop thinking. You can't do it. And, of those thoughts, a lot are questions, a lot are habitual questions. My question to you is, are they empowering or disempowering?

Hmm.

I ask, I ask the question, if there's 2 people, 2 people, and the same horrible thing happened to them, horrible thing, 2 different sides of the country, let's say. One person says, why did he have to do that to me? Well, guess what? Ask and ye shall receive. You're gonna get an answer. You're gonna— and it's spiraled down because it's a bad answer, because now you're going into blame and into all those other negative emotions. Now the other person on the other coast, let's say, same horrible thing happened to them. All of a sudden that person says, how can I use this to inspire myself or help me get to another level?

Mm-hmm.

Same thing. The obstacle sometimes is the way. It really is.

So, when you look at this idea of measuring your own performance, I think the takeaway— I'm just confirming that the takeaway that I got is that your performance as a leader is judged by how well the people you're leading perform.

No question. No question. That's just like all these You know, tech leaders right now are going to be judged on the efficiency and the productivity and the profitability of their companies.

Yeah.

Mine's people, you know, how they perform.

Yeah, the score, right? In the game, it's the score, right? And the difference between you and the competitor. And in business, it's the financial numbers.

Yeah. The only difference, Greg, is CNBC versus ESPN. Yeah.

I think that's a good spot to pause right there. Coming up in part 2 of my interview with Phil Weber, the author of the upcoming book, How Do You Make Them Thirsty? Phil talks about the importance of compassion and empathy.

People under your tutelage, under your leadership, know if you really care. They don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. That is an absolute first building block right there. They have to trust that you trust them. Thanks for checking out the BOSS Podcast with Gregory Shepard. Get more on Greg's Business Operating Support System, BOSS, at GregoryShepard.com. This has been a production of Forbes Books Radio.