Episode 21 | Part One: Same Side Selling

Gregory Shepard, an entrepreneur who's built and sold 12 businesses, a recipient of 4 private equity awards, TEDx speaker, and Forbes author. This is The Boss Podcast with Gregory Shepard.

Thanks for joining me on another episode of the podcast. If you like the show, please tell a friend and tell me if you get a chance. You can tell me by going to the review section in Apple's Spotify, or wherever you listen to a podcast. I love doing the show because it's my personal life's mission to help entrepreneurs increase their chances to succeed and help with wealth distribution. This week, I'm joined by Ian Altman. He's built a billion-dollar company. He's written bestselling books and created the Same Side Selling methodology. Ian, welcome to the show.

Greg, thanks for having me here.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's just a real pleasure. I remember reading your book and thinking, How great would it be to have this guy on the show? He's a keynote speaker and an author on integrity-based business growth. What exactly does that mean when you say integrity-based business growth?

Well, sometimes it frightens me when people ask that question. But really what it comes down to is, if you think about it, most books, most concepts about sales and business growth either follow a game metaphor or a battle metaphor. So, in a game metaphor, you have a winner and a loser. In the battle metaphor, the loser dies. And then we understand— we fail to understand why there's this conflict or this adversarial tension between buyer and seller. And the whole idea behind same-side selling is that you want to get on the same side with your client or customer so that we're looking at the world through their lens, not our own. And so that integrity-based approach means that We have to be equally, if not more committed to the results and outcomes for our clients than they are.

Hmm. So basically, the concept is to be— is a reciprocal moving forward relationship. So you're playing a game together instead of against each other.

Yeah, we often look at it as almost like a puzzle metaphor. So if you and I were putting a puzzle together and you had a bag of pieces and I had a bag of pieces, well, if If we're not trying to assemble the same puzzle, it's not going to work. We couldn't do it in isolation from each other. We would need to collaborate with one another to build that picture.

Oh, okay.

And similarly, in the model of, in this same-side selling model, the idea is that we're trying to find the people we have the best fit with for whom we can have the greatest impact and results. And if we don't think that we can help them achieve the results they need, If we don't believe that we can help them succeed and overcome a challenge they're facing, we shouldn't be trying to sell them anything. We should be directing them to a different resource. And so that's, that's part of the approach, which is atypical because most people have this Alec Baldwin, Glengarry Glen Ross, always be closing metaphor, which makes it so that people are like, are people that we just want to push away and say, Get the heck away from me. I don't want to— no one likes to feel like they're being sold to, but we're always happy to talk to someone who can solve an important challenge for us.

So you're thinking you're changing the narrative. You're changing the entire narrative of the conversation to the idea of same side, right? We're all trying to make something happen here. As long as you isolate the customer and understand through marketing that you've got the right persona and the right ideal customer profile, Then the problems that you're trying to solve with your solution should be a match and therefore put yourself on the same side as them. And that's what you mean by integrity-based business growth.

Exactly. And the idea is that I need to understand with that, with that potential client upfront, what is the potential outcome they're looking for? And I have to do some soul searching and make sure that I'm confident I can deliver that. As opposed to historically, people say, Oh, here's someone who says they want to buy X and I have a way to sell them X. So guess what? I'm going to sell it to them and now I'm done. So if you think about the buyer-seller interaction as a timeline, most people in sales would say the finish line is the sale or the contract. But most clients would say the finish line is the result or outcome. And so we need to be focused on the result and outcome just like they are. And in doing so, we're totally aligned with them. Everything becomes integrity-based instead of my goal is to make the sale. Your goal is to get something that's 2 steps after that. Doesn't necessarily work.

I see. I see. I see. So you're saying make sure the goalpost is the same goalpost, that the outcome of the, of whatever it is that you're solving is your outcome, not just getting the customer. And that actually would help a lot with the value driver of retention too, right? If you did it that way, your retention rates would go up.

Exactly. It's a novel concept, right? So, if I deliver great results for you, you're likely to want to keep working with me. If I don't deliver great results, not so much. So, it's interesting. In my business, one of the first things I'm thinking in my mind is, A, do they have a problem worth solving? And B, how confident am I that I can deliver the results that they need? And if I have any doubt, I tell them, look, here are the areas of concern I have. that might prevent you from reaching this outcome? And sometimes those issues are on my end, sometimes it's on their end, sometimes it's a third party. But having that honest discussion helps people realize, wait, this person is more interested in the outcome than the sale.

And so, the Same Side Methodology, this concept that you have, it has more pieces to it. And I want to give you an opportunity to talk about the other sort of objects or how the methodology maps out completely so that you have the ability to sort of show people how this can help them in many dimensions?

Sure. So, it starts with the notion of the focus on the kind of problems that you solve. A buddy of mine, Bob London, refers to this as the elevator rants instead of the elevator pitches. So, the elevator pitch is that thing that people do that's whatever, 15, 20 seconds that describes what it is that you do. An elevator rant is what would people complain about that you're good at fixing? So think of it in a medical metaphor. We're not walking around saying, hey, do you want this treatment? We're saying, do you have these symptoms? Because these symptoms might be an indication of a condition that we are good at treating. When people talk about just what it is they're selling, they suffer from what I like to call axis displacement disorder. And that's where they believe the axis of the earth has shifted and the world now revolves around them. So instead, we want to make sure we're focused on our clients, which means we start with something we call the Same-Side Pitch, which follows this model of entice, disarm, and discover. So first, we entice by sharing problems that we solve with dramatic or extraordinary results. Then we disarm the notion that we're there to sell something by acknowledging that not everyone's a good fit for us. And then we trigger the discovery phase and to learn more about their situation to see if we can help. And so it makes it so that we're focused on the problems that we're solving and are those problems important for the client to solve? Because if you start by just saying, hey, what keeps you up at night? They might give you an answer that you can't address. So you say, what keeps you up at night? They say, my dog licks himself. Now what? Like, you got a solution for that? No. So then you're fishing for other stuff. Most organizations and most executives, the problems that you address, they may not be thinking of at that moment. But if you say, here are the 3 most common things people come to us to address, they might say, oh, that second one's a big issue for us. It just wasn't top of mind 20 seconds ago.

So, I did some research on this as part of the book. And one of the things I found out is the biggest competitor for most people when they're selling is do nothing.

Status quo. Yep.

Yeah. Keep the status quo exactly how it is. How does somebody get around that scenario? Because that seems to be, you know, competing against somebody else is one thing, but talking to the person that you're talking to, the persona that you're on the phone with, and them sitting there going, well, this is good for the ICP, this is good for the business, but for me personally, I gotta take this to legal, I gotta take this to CFO, I gotta go to engineering, and, you know, I'd just rather leave things the way it is. How would you address something like that?

Well, there, there's some other competing factors against us in terms of people making a change. So in order for somebody to, to in essence stop what they've been doing and switch to you, they have to do 2 things that humans don't like to do. The first is that they have to fire whoever they were working with before in order to switch to you. And the second thing is they have to acknowledge that maybe they made a mistake before.

Hmm.

So, it's way easier for people to just stick with what they've already been doing. So, if you came into somebody, for example, let's say it's a software company. And the software company, the client already has an existing, let's say it's a CRM solution. So, they already have an existing CRM. And you contact them and say, hey, we offer the CRM solution, but they already have a CRM. Well, they're probably not going to be inclined to move to you because why would they move? Well, they're going to move because There's something they're not happy about or they can't do in their current system. So instead, if you approach them and you're the software company that maybe has a CRM and you reach out to them and say, well, our clients contact us because oftentimes they might have an existing system. They might have a CRM or some other way, but they find that they can't do X, Y, and Z. And that's actually preventing them from growing their business and landing more accounts.

Yeah.

This would mean then that if, if that was the case, that you would have to have done some research, some real research on the competitor that you're competing against, including do nothing, so that you understood what to say to trigger those— that emotional response that allows you to move forward, correct?

Well, so yes and no. So you have to do your research to know the type of business, to know what things are going to move the needle for them. But in terms of the competition, what you really have to know is What are the problems that you solve better than anybody else? So if you know, for example, that your software handles taking an idea and getting a proposal generated faster than anybody else, then the reason people are going to switch to you is because that's important to them. Or if it was that you provide the same interface, whether it's on a phone or browser or on their desktop, then you're going to focus on people who don't have that. Because if they are, if the 3 biggest reasons people would move to your software to use your company aren't present in that client, they're not moving.

Hmm.

They're not going to move unless it's compelling. So, the idea of Same-Side Selling is to focus on the places you can have the greatest impact. So, it's not about how do I get everyone to do business with me? It's how do I make it so that early on in the process, I quickly determine who's the best fit.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So one of the things I do with Boss, I want to get your, bounce this off of you. One of the things we do in the Boss Protocol is we do what's called customer stories. It goes like this. I work at company and I'm trying to do X so that I can do Y. Does that formula kind of get you to the point where you're prepared? You do a bunch of those. Does that give you, do you feel like that that gives you the preparation That you need to identify the problem and your solution up against that specific company and persona.

That's a solid framework and a good foundation for it. Where I would pivot that is instead of, I do this so I can accomplish that, what I might do instead is say, right now, I don't have the ability to do X, Y, and Z, and that's causing this result. So, in other words, I have this issue that's causing this negative impact. And if I can fix it, I'm going to get this positive outcome. Because then, then I can connect the dots and say, yeah, that's a real problem. So, for example, in the world of digital marketing, people often will reach out to their potential customers and they'll say, oh, well, you know, we're this digital marketing agency. Here are the different things that we do. Here are all of our services. Like the client knows what they need. What they should be doing is reaching out to them saying, Our clients come to us 'cause they have amazing ideas. They've got better products than their competitors, yet their message is falling on deaf ears. No one knows who they are, and their inferior competitors are getting more attention. If this keeps going, they're gonna lose market share and become obsolete.

Mm, okay, I see, I see. So sometimes it feels, you know, I hear this all the time from the portfolio companies, and early on when I was starting businesses, sometimes it feels like you're working against each other, right? Right? So you're trying to talk to them to explain, you know, here's this problem that I know that you have. Do you agree with that problem? And they say, well, I don't. I really, I have something. And you know what they're saying is I have something that is inferior, going back to what you just said, like they have a CRM or they have a martech or adtech platform that works for them. And you can't get to the point where you can even present that. How do you get around— that initial reaction, you know, the prefrontal cortex just reacting, saying, I have it, I've seen it, I've got things to do, stop talking to me. How do you get around that scenario?

Well, so some of it is asking questions to find out the real truth because if in fact they've solved it, they're not a good opportunity for you. If they haven't, then you might be able to help them. So, oftentimes, it's a matter of saying, well, if I say to you, Well, I've seen this problem and I know you have it. You're going to say, well, no, I don't have that problem. But if I said, so a lot of the organizations we talk to, this is the problem they're facing and they weren't even aware of it. How common do you think that is? And oftentimes someone will say, oh, it's pretty common. In fact, we have that. Okay. So if I make the assumption, you might push back. If I say, this is a problem that we solve, but There's a concept that we talk about called disarming. And it's this idea that we've all been on the receiving end of someone trying to sell us something.

Mm-hmm.

And it doesn't feel very good and we don't like it. And it means that we don't trust people when that happens. So, we need to disarm early in the process. So, if I said to you, look, people come to us to solve this problem, but only about half the people we talk to are the right fit. I don't even know if we can help you yet. I'd have to learn more about your situation. You will tend to lower your guard now and we can have an honest discussion. Now, part of that is staying in that integrity plane that says, if I don't think I can help you, I'm not going to keep pushing this.

Mm-hmm.

I'm going to be transparent with you that I can't help, which the irony of that is that every time I say to someone, I'm probably not the best person to help you, they spend 20 minutes trying to convince me why I am the best person to help them, which Which is just a lesson in psychology that we could all learn. And instead, if I say, oh, I'm the best thing that could ever help you, they're like, well, I don't know about that. We'll see. It's just, you know, it's the psychology of it. So, we need to make sure we don't come across as someone who's just trying to sell something. And when that happens, we get to the truth a whole lot faster. So, effective sales is not about persuasion or coercion. It's about getting to the truth as quickly as possible.

Mm-hmm. And then giving them their time back or saving them time in the future. Can you go into the entice part? I mean, it seems like there's a stack here, right? This entice, and we went into disarm. The discover part, I think, is pretty, pretty easy to understand, right? You're trying to figure out how you can help them. And at that point, you're working together. And the disarm, you just explained. The entice thing is something where, you know, you get on the phone right away. They're already saying no before they even say no. Right? The second they get on the phone. How do you overcome that obstacle with this entice principle?

The idea of this, of this first element of the same-side pitch being entice is that we're sharing examples of problems that we solve for clients just like them with extraordinary results. And we immediately then disarm by saying, but not everyone's a good fit. So for example, if it was a portfolio company, If it was a portfolio company you're working with, I might say, for example, look, when companies like yours, let's say it was a software company, software companies often come to me because they've got amazing stuff, their message falls on deaf ears, and what happens is every deal comes down to price, their sales cycle's really long, and they don't know why. For the right organizations, they tell me that we can shorten their sales cycles, preserve their margins, and and actually help them gain market share. But the way we approach that, it's not the right fit for everyone. So I'd have to learn more. I don't even know if you're facing one of those issues. If you are, we might be able to help. If not, there's probably not much for us to talk about.

Okay, I see, I see. So it's a reciprocal sort of relationship that you're trying to develop with them instead of selling and pushing or marketing and pulling. You're sort of, you're sort of doing it together. It's like a balance that you're doing with, with the other person, correct?

Exactly. It's, it's all, it's all built around parity. So the idea is that it's not, oh, I'm trying to pitch them stuff and they're rejecting me. It's, I don't even know if I can help you yet. And the people who we help the most tend to have these 2 or 3 challenges they're facing. And for the right people, they tell us we deliver amazing results. But even the people who are having those problems, not everyone's the right fit for how we approach that. And someone says, well, but then, well, why wouldn't I be a good fit? Well, some people, they already feel they have all the answers. They don't want an opinion from other people. Some people, they're looking for the cheapest solution, not the one with the most tangible outcomes.

Mm-hmm.

And there's a number of different parameters. So we'd have to figure that out together. Now, you're building a plan together instead of one person trying to sell Hoping the other person will buy. Instead, we're saying, look, we're good at solving these sorts of problems. If you have one of these problems, we can probably help. And if you don't, there's really not much for us to talk about.

So in your book, Same-Side Selling, you promote the concept of finding impact together. Is that what you mean?

So finding impact together is the notion of oftentimes when a client talks to you, they'll say, for example, We're having this problem, so we're looking at your software. So that initial problem they indicate is what we refer to as the issue. So that's usually the superficial part where it says, well, we can't do this, we can't do that. Finding impact together says, what happens if you don't solve that? And that's where the client either convinces you that the problem is worth solving or they don't. The idea behind impact is that oftentimes the client comes to you relating to the issue, which is the superficial part of what they're trying to solve. The impact is the measurement of what happens if you don't solve that problem. And the client is either going to convince you that that issue has enough impact that it's worth finding a solution, or they won't. And if they, and if they can't convince you the problem is worth solving, you shouldn't spend a lot of time trying to come up with a solution to a problem that they don't think is worth solving.

Right.

I see. I see. I see. Yeah, because you're not going to convince them that a problem they don't think is worth solving is worth solving, right? So, what is the best way then to articulate the problem a product or service solves? What's the best way to like spell that out to get their attention and hopefully get them to recognize the problem?

Well, most of it comes down to us not projecting what we think it is. And that's the trap that a lot of salespeople fall into is the client says, Oh, we're having this problem with our business. And the seller creates this fictional story in their head of how big of a consequence this is to the business without ever asking the question. So, if the client doesn't believe in that consequence or that impact, then it really doesn't matter. So, what it means is that we would say to them, well, when we talk to other businesses, they equate this to being X. Or we might even ask a question like, Gee, so that's what's going on. What happens if you don't solve it? And the client says, here's what happens if we don't solve it. Okay. You couldn't quantify that, could you? And they'll say, well, I mean, it's probably costing us $2 million a quarter. Okay. And compared to other things on your plate, how important is it to solve this? Because now I have to get the relative importance of solving that. There's a concept in Same-Side Selling we refer to as the same-side quadrants. And the idea is it's a method for taking notes in a meeting. And we take a blank sheet of paper, draw a vertical line down the center, horizontal line across it, creating 4 different quadrants. In the upper left, we take notes about their issue, meaning what's the superficial reason that they're meeting with you. And you can get that information by simply asking, so, what inspired you to meet with us today? And now we're taking notes in that quadrant.

Okay.

Then, then we want to get to the impact and importance, which is the upper right quadrant. So, the upper right quadrant Impact importance, we get there by saying, so what happens if you don't solve this? You couldn't quantify that, could you? Or compared to other things on your plate, how important is it to solve this? Because it doesn't matter how important we think it is. It matters how important they think it is compared to their other priorities. In the lower left quadrant, we take notes about the result or outcome. That comes from a question that sounds something like, so what could we measure together 6 months down the road to know whether or not we're successful? I want to make sure that if we think this is high-five worthy, that you think so too. So, what can we measure together? And then, of course, everyone's had deals where someone who wasn't included needs to be included and they kill the deal in the 11th hour.

Right.

So, in the lower right quadrant, we take notes about others involved or others impacted. Who else do we need to include? And the way we ask that is not the way people used to ask it, which is, who's the decision maker? Because that's immediately adversarial. That's like saying, Greg, clearly you couldn't be empowered to make this decision, so who does? That's a bad question to ask. Instead, we want to ask a question like, so who else would have a strong opinion about the impact of this? Who else would have a strong opinion about what we should measure for success? Who's likely to bless this thing or kill it in the 11th hour? And that's how we get those people involved. But now we have a method or structure Around taking notes in a meeting so we can quickly at a glance see what the real issues are, the impact, the results, and it's all spelled out for us so that we know which deals are real and which ones aren't. My clients who use this method, their forecasts become incredibly reliable because they know that if the impact isn't documented well in the customer's words, and if the results aren't documented well in the customer's words, Those deals usually linger on forever. And when they are well-defined, those deals move quickly and pricing pressure is much less prevalent.

That's great stuff, Ian. Standby. We gotta stop right here. But coming up in part 2 of my conversation with Ian Altman, the founder of Same Side Selling Academy, Ian talks about the questions companies ask themselves when it comes down to making a decision.

What problem does this solve for us? Why do we need it? Which is the financial justification. In essence, what happens if we don't solve that, that, that problem? And then what's the likely outcome or result?

Learn more about the BOSS Business Operating Support System at bossstartupscience.com, or you can reach Gregory Shepard at gregoryshepard.com. This has been a production of Forbes Books.