Episode 21 | Part Two: Same Side Selling

Gregory Shepard, an entrepreneur who's built and sold 12 businesses, a recipient of 4 private equity awards, TEDx speaker, and Forbes author. This is The Boss Podcast with Gregory Shepard.

Welcome back to the second part of my talk with Ian Altman, who's written a bestselling book and created the Same Side Selling methodology. Ian, in part 1, we broke down the components of Same Side Selling and your process. Now, I wanted to talk about data. One of the things I've found to be incredibly effective for me is the use of data. For example, if you're in real estate, I'd say, according to the National Association of Realtors, maybe 90% of people find a new house this way, just as an opener to at least get them to listen to the concept you're trying to pitch. I've heard from my portfolio companies over and over again that the customer doesn't always know the problem themselves. And sometimes you have to tell them the problem from the perspective of a third party. How do you feel about that sort of approach?

So, I like having the data and the only modification I'd suggest is that it becomes a question that gets their buy-in. So, if I said, well, you know, 78% of people use text messaging more so than X, they might say, well, I don't know, you know, they might push back. Well, that's not always the case. But instead, if I said, Well, the research shows this. How similar or different do you think that is in your market?

Oh, see, that's different. That's different. Yeah.

So now what happens is they say, well, it's probably the same. Here's the thing. They're going to believe 30% of what you say and 110% of what they say. So anytime we can get the client to confirm something, it holds a lot more weight because they're never going to trust anyone more than they trust themselves.

Right. So it sort of leaves a watermark in the conversation, right?

Absolutely. And the idea is that if they don't believe that and you don't, and you don't give them an opportunity to confirm or refute it, then you're of the mindset that that still matters and they've already discounted in their mind. So now you're not on the same side at all. You're, you're still pushing something. You're hanging your hat on something that they don't, they haven't bought into.

So when you look at this, right? So I'm sort of like going about this conversation like a funnel. And so now we're at the end of the conversation. We're moving into the close. Okay. So there's this sort of old school and new school mentality on closing these days. Is there a happy medium between the two? How do you close out the conversation in a way that you can follow up and they'll answer the call or respond to the email after the phone conversation? That's another place where, you know, things seem to drop off. You think the conversation went really well. The sales rep's like, oh, it went fantastic. Yeah, I feel really good about this deal. But then the guy doesn't return an email or she doesn't give a phone call back. How would you, how would you go about the closing process?

And so when, when people get ghosted like that, that's a term that we often use is, oh, they ghosted us. Yeah, everything was great. And then they went silent. It's usually because we didn't ask the right questions. So, the client acknowledges the impact of not solving the problem and the likely results. So, I've done research—

You didn't do a good job at the first 3, right? Basically, especially Discover, right? Out of the Entice, Disarm, Discover. They didn't do it. That should be an indicator that you didn't do a good job on the Discover phase.

Well, that's often the case, but you can recover from that too. See, I've done research with over 10,000 executives on how they make and approve decisions. And the questions people ask are the same regardless of industry, regardless of geography, and regardless of company size. And the questions they ask when they're looking to approve or make a decision is they're looking at an opportunity and they say, what problem does this solve for us? Why do we need it? Which is the financial justification. In essence, what happens if we don't solve that problem? And then, what's the likely outcome or result?

Right.

That's the foundation for why in the same-side quadrants we have issue, impact/importance, and results. Because if we take the upper left quadrant of issue, that corresponds to what problem are they trying to solve? The upper right quadrant of impact is why do we need it, or kind of what happens if you don't solve it? And the lower left quadrant of results is focused on, so what does the outcome or result look like?

Mm-hmm.

The key to this is that We have to make sure that we're asking the right questions so our clients convince us instead of thinking our job is to convince the client. And Jim Cathcart is a legend in the sales space. Jim and I were speaking at an event together and Jim said something that I found very profound. He said, the term closing is a bad term because we're not closing anything. We're opening a relationship. So Jim said, I think it should be called confirming the sale, not closing the sale, because we're actually opening the relationship, not closing anything. So that's one mindset shift.

That really resonates because that goes with the concept of, you know, this relationship goes, is supposed to equal lifetime value for that customer.

Sure. Right.

So the majority of the lifetime value comes after you so-called close, or in this case, confirm the sale, right? Otherwise you lose retention.

Exactly. So, so, so then once, once we know that and we say, okay, now it's confirming the sale. Well, if we've done our job right, if I, if, if I had notes with you that said, okay, gee, Greg, here's my understanding. Let me just summarize. Here's what you're trying to solve. By not solving this, you feel it's costing you $2 million a quarter in lost business. And this is one of your top priorities. And the results you're looking for are this. Here's the way we would approach solving that. My big close or confirmation might be something as simple as, so, Greg, would you like our help?

Okay.

And all of a sudden, it's a much softer, gentler approach to sales because it's, would you like our help? Yeah, I would. Okay, great. What do you think our next step should be? Well, do you have a contract with you? And now, who's doing the confirming? The client is. You're not pushing anything. And you might say, would you like our help? Yeah, but I don't think we can start until March 1st. Okay.

Right?

So, you know, what's getting in the way of you guys starting before then? Well, I have this problem and that problem. Okay. It probably makes sense to start March 1st. Now, is that something we should write down in pencil or pen? March 1st.

I see that pencil or pen is a nice tip.

And now it's like, okay. How real is that date? Should I lock that in or is that just like a placeholder? Because some people tell us March 1st because they don't want to make a decision now. And some people actually have a defined reason for why that date. Which case are we in right now?

Right. So, you're trying to figure out how serious this conversation is at this point. Okay. I really like that. That's so smooth. That's so smooth.

I'm just trying to get to the truth.

So, tell me about then the importance of follow-up. So, now you go through the whole funnel. You get off the phone or the email conversation ends and now you're waiting. So, tell me about the importance of follow-up and how follow-up should be done in this framework, in the methodology of Same Side Selling.

So, here's the interesting part. You just had this meeting with the client or prospect. You went through the Same Side Quadrants. You're taking notes and you've got all this information about what problem they're trying to solve, why they need to solve it, what the outcome results should look like. Who else needs to be involved, how important this is. What happens shortly after you leave the meeting from their perspective? And the answer is life happens. Something happens at home, something happens at work that now takes this off the radar screen.

Hmm.

And so, the person selling it, this is your top priority, but it's not necessarily for the client and the buyer on their end. So, the first thing we want to do is we want to send what I call a concise business case. So, we send a follow-up note that includes all this information we gathered in the same-side quadrants. And the note usually starts something like, hey, Greg, enjoyed our conversation. I've written up a quick summary of my notes. I'm sure I got some of it wrong. If you wouldn't mind, just take a look and let me know where I need to make any adjustments. I want to make sure that I'm not going down the wrong path.

Oh, so you're re-engaging a 2-way conversation. Instead of talking at them, you're talking with them.

Exactly. So, what I'm doing is I'm making sure I get feedback from them about that information. And in that concise business case, I'm going to say, here's the background, which basically is here's the issue impact importance. Here are the results you're looking for. Here's our approach for how we would do it. If appropriate, here's what it costs to do that. And then, here's what our next steps are. Please let me know if this makes sense for you. If then, I get feedback from them and now I don't hear back. I don't get out my tin cup and cardboard sign and say, hey, just calling to check in. I want to see if you made a decision yet, which is the way most people follow up.

Yeah, they do.

Instead, I would reach out and say, hey, Greg, I'm looking through my notes. You mentioned that this was costing you guys $2 million a quarter and it was one of your top priorities. I haven't heard back from you. I want to make sure I hadn't dropped the ball.

Okay.

And now I'm following up for your reasons, not for my reasons. Right.

That's the key, right? Following up for theirs. So it's all about them. It's all about keeping the customer at the center of the transaction, the conversation, or whatever. So this gives you a framework as an entrepreneur to keep the customer at the center. And so this would actually work also then for a follow-up with those entrepreneurs looking to raise capital. You know, you email 15 venture capital angel investors, whatever, and nobody emails back. But if you had a conversation and you understand what they're trying to invest in, right? And why they're trying to invest in certain things, then the FOMO, the fear of missing out of that investor is a pretty strong, compelling reason to follow up with them. And you could use the— could you not use the 4 quadrants the same way?

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's exactly the same. So you would say, well, what types of things are you investing in? Why that sector? Well, 'cause we feel that sector is going to generate the greatest returns. So compared to other sectors you're looking at, how important is this sector? Well, it's our number 1 or number 2 to one we focus on. Okay. What are the results or outcomes you're looking for? Well, we're typically looking for a 10x return, this and that. Okay, great. So, just out of curiosity, when you look at our company and what you know of it, how well aligned is what we're doing with what you're looking for? Oh, it's dead on. Okay, great. Now, my follow-up is, hey, when we spoke last time, you mentioned that the sector we're in was the one that you're— is one of your top 1 or 2. 'Cause you thought you had this type of return. When I asked you, you said, this is dead on. Did you already find other companies to invest in in the space? If you're no longer interested, I just want to know.

Right, right.

And now they're like, oh.

Yeah, that's a really good way of approaching it. That's not what they do with me.

You know what? I get that. And most don't. And it's interesting. There's a client of mine who was, who asked for my help in terms of they're looking for a strategic investor. And they asked for my help and they said, oh, this is going to take the better part of a year. And we locked in, in their case, $20 million investment within 90 days. And people are like, how'd you do that? I'm like, well, we just focused on why those people would want to invest instead of why we wanted an investment. I mean, it's pretty simple.

Yeah, that's beautiful. That's really, really good stuff. I want to ask you just a couple more questions. I'm really curious. You can't just get off a podcast these days without asking this question. So 2020. Now, the first quarter of '21, I'm just refusing to call '21 until it starts acting like '21. But let's say it's— you look at 2020 and it's caused havoc over just the entire planet and companies around the world. And I wanted to ask your perspective on the effect of the pandemic with regards to B2B sales over the last 9 months, but also, you know, moving into 2021. Do you see any fundamental changes in both the market, the responses, or any adjustments that same-side needs to have to appeal to these new types of customers that are doing things differently?

Fortunately, same-side selling is pretty well aligned with, with the advice I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give people. And the first thing you What you have to do is you have to recognize how your client's needs may have changed. So, for example, if I was someone selling IT services to law firms a year ago, I would focus on the reliability of their systems and the performance of their networks.

Mm-hmm.

Today, I would reach out and say, law firms come to us because they're concerned that their people are working remotely and they're not sure how secure it is and they're not sure how reliable it is. And it might impact their image with their customers.

Okay.

And so, now all of a sudden, it's like, so first, I have to adapt to changing conditions. The other thing is that for many businesses, the way that they used to attract customers was through in-person networking and conferences. And 80% of their leads would come through that. So, how do you earn attention today? And what you have to realize is that You've got to invest in establishing your subject matter expertise. And it's not around your products, but it's more around understanding what's going on in your clients' worlds. So, I might say, I might create content, let's say, using that same example of law firms, of how will law firms operate differently after the pandemic? And guess what? A managing partner might say, yeah, I'm interested to hear what these people have to say. And you might touch on 4 topics, 2 of which you don't address at all, and 2 of which are in the sweet spot of your products and services. But the idea is that we need to recognize and embrace these things. Now, keep in mind, I've worked with clients who grew dramatically in 2020 because we helped them seize opportunities and identify opportunities that other people were kind of curled up in a ball in the corner licking their wounds. And these people capitalized on opportunities. So, not everyone suffered in 2020, but some people have and their priorities have shifted. If you were selling products and services to cruise lines, it's probably going to suck for a while still.

Right, right. So, the last thing I wanted to ask you about is, you know, this concept of having a champion, right? So, let's say that you have somebody else that has to be consulted, you know, the real decision maker. Behind the person that you're talking to. And now these people are working from home.

Yeah.

And so you don't have the same type of champion, right? You don't have the type of champion that's gonna walk down the hall and walk into somebody's office, have that personal relationship and say, hey, I just talked to somebody, and they will champion your product in and down the road in order to get it approved. Does that relationship still exist? And is it old? And does it still work? And how do you navigate it?

So, the relationship is still totally valid. And the best way you get that information is by asking a question that says, hey, with the pandemic, people are working from home. So, when you're looking to implement something like this, how do you include other people now? And the client's going to say, well, here's what we do. And now you know what the process is. What you can't do is assume that it works the same way it used to. And if you say, well, so gee, remember in the same side quadrant, lower right, we're talking about who else needs to be involved. And you might say at the end of that, okay, well, so it sounds like these 2 people are critical. What's the best way for you and I to include them in a conversation in a way that's comfortable for you? And they say, oh, we could just schedule a Zoom call together. Great. And now you just solved it. But if you don't ask the question, And you just assume that it works the way it used to, you'll probably be disappointed.

Yeah. And so this concept of like, you know, doing the discover to get this alignment, and once you have that alignment, keeping that alignment in the conversation, then makes it so that this person, it's their idea and they're solving the problem and you're just there to help them. Is that a good sort of roll-up of that process?

Yeah, I mean, it is a good roll-up of the process. It's, you know, we start with, here are the problems that we're good at solving. They're either going to say, yep, that resonates with me, or no, it doesn't. And keep in mind, you might have 6 or 7 problems that you're good at solving. And when you meet with a potential client, you're only going to share the 2 or 3 that are most likely to resonate with them.

Hmm.

Once someone expresses interest, there are some techniques that we teach people about how you differentiate your offering compared to the rest of the world. And then once we've established that, yes, they're looking for that type of relationship, then we navigate through the quadrants with them. So they're convincing us they have a problem worth solving. And then we send that back to them in this concise business case that summarizes everything. And our next question is a function of, hey, would you like our help? And so it makes it so it's all integrity-based and you can go from beginning to end. And it also allows you to engage People who never thought they were in sales to follow a process that they can get behind.

Ian Altman, Same Side Selling. Ian, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This was an extremely useful podcast. I'm sure that a lot of people are going to listen to this and go, I can use this, I can use this. A lot of takeaways. I try to make it so that every podcast somebody has like 1 or 2 things they can use the next day. I think there's a whole pile of things they could use the next day in this podcast. Thank you so much.

You bet, Craig. Thank you.

If you want to reach out to Ian or find more information about same-side selling, go to ianaltman.com and feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. Until next time, namaste, my friends.

Learn more about the BOSS Business Operating Support System at bossstartups.com. Or you can reach Gregory Shepard at GregoryShepard.com. This has been a production of Forbes Books.