From Broke to Building $150M in Revenue: Jason Wojo’s Unfiltered Marketing Secrets

If you don't run ads, you will never expose the problems that your business has.

What would the best approach be as far as a marketing plan and building a personal brand and building the brand of your company?

I had a client once, Shopify store had a bunch of viral TikTok videos and they had Taylor Swift make a video for them. She was killing it. For two straight years. We had this ad with the Taylor Swift necklace and it crushed until it didn't crush anymore. Taylor Swift's, I guess, manager emails them a cease and desist and says, you can't use the video anymore. Our agreement's over. We tried using different videos. Shit tanked. The product wasn't as sexy anymore. And now she's in debt up to her ass because she's got a $4 million warehouse and 800k in inventory that she couldn't sell. All that was organic. And then she was like, okay, I can't do that organically more. I have to go do paid ads. And it was completely different ballgame. If she had a couple hundred grand to use to build out paid ads, she would have had better success and wouldn't have been so stressed out when she lost. When you're running stuff organically, you don't know what your problems are because most of your business has been referrals. It's been, you know, just through your website, it's been through Google listings, Google calls, just stuff that's organic or a friend told someone about it. If you don't run ads, you will never expose the problems that your business has. And you're not going to have like, that predictability to not just, like, get more customers, but never have to wake up again and be like, where are my customers?

Welcome back to Relentless. I'm super happy to be here today with my friend, and I'm actually one of his clients, Jason Wojo with Wojo Media. He's got about 1.5 million followers across his platforms. He's an absolute beast in the digital advertising industry. He spent almost $35 million online and he's generated almost $150 million in revenue for his clients. And some of the big names that he represents and works for are Andy Elliott, Ryan Pineda, Kris Krohn. Who else? Pace Morby, Justin Waller, too. Yeah, Justin Waller. Yeah.

It's been a good network. Yeah.

Yeah. So it's great. And I'm just getting started on social media, so we just kind of started working together. But, you know, hopefully I'll be at 1.5 million in the next 30 days.

Yeah.

Yeah. So thank you for being here.

Yeah, of course. I appreciate it.

I'm super excited.

You're.

You're always a good time to talk to. So let's start with OnlyFans. No, I'm just kidding. Cool. So we'll hold off on that for like a few minutes at least. But I do want to talk about social media advertising because I think in today's day and age, like, if you're not online, who even are you? Right. Like, it's really hard to build a business, build a brand, or do anything if you don't have a social media presence. And if you have a big social media presence, like Alex Hormozi or Grant Cardone or some of these big names, Kim Kardashian, like, they can pretty much sell anything at that point. And so it's so important. And I think it's really special too, because there's so many businesses out there, but people really want to do business with someone. Like a person, someone that they resonate with, someone that they can connect to and someone that they ultimately like and trust. And I think that you've done a really good job with that and especially on the authenticity piece.

Sure.

Yeah. Because you're pretty bold.

Because I'm in a hard space. Like, people don't really like marketing firms. It's like a big thing. Like when people hear the word ad agency, they're like, ah, I'm good.

Yeah.

And it's like, that's why we just decided to call ourselves like a marketing partner. We got out of like the ad agency word. But like, yeah, I mean, what we were saying about organic is it's like there's only so many people who can build an audience like her Mose. So it's like if you get a couple of good posts or you get a couple good reels or whatever it looks like long form YouTube, all these different platforms that you're on the presently post posting on, you have to put paid ads on it to put gas on the fire. You know, so many people can only keep that up for so long. Just organically. Viral, viral, viral. Like, it. It's a lot tougher than it used to be. Four or five years ago, ad costs were lower, but it was also easier to stack your post with a bunch of hashtags and get like, organic engagement. And like now it's just a lot tougher. And also, like, there's these new tricks now about putting all your people on close friends listen and like all these little softwares that people use and all these new nuances and it's like we have to do all these things to boost our organic. But like paid ads, you could just accelerate it way further. I mean, right now it's a little tough, I'm not gonna lie, because the election's here. So like ad costs, have one up and once the election over on the sixth or seventh, or it'll go back to normal. But it was like that way because now we have election and holiday shopping. So all these things are consuming the feed. It's like, organic's great. It's just, I just want to put gas on the fire.

Yeah. And so what do you like, what's your advice to people who are looking to build a brand? Knowing that there's so much competition out there and everybody's posting stuff and it is really hard to get engagement. But like, yeah, what is your advice? Is that does it really matter what time you post? Does it really matter what hashtags you do? You know, I guess. How much is it strategy and how much is it just like random and what you're doing?

Yeah. I think the two biggest things are like implementation and tracking. It's like, what do I mean by that? Well, when you implement, you post, you test hooks, you see what videos do really well, you know what topics to talk about. Like whenever I go on pods, like you asked me, like, what things you want to talk about. What do you know goes the most viral? Like having the tracking piece of. Okay, like I know what topics will get more views. That's just done by implementing and just consistently posting. You just know what works. I think a lot of people post for the consistency aspect because Gary Vee was down our throats for years and he was like, just post 25 times a day. And I'm like, dude, it's not that easy anymore. It used to be that way. And I don't know, it's like if I'm not tracking what's working, I don't know what platforms get the most views. Like right now. I mean, yeah, getting a bunch of views is great. We've just seen that long form YouTube is like doing really, really well. Like getting, getting 500 views of people who are your ideal avatar versus like 10,000 people who are just broad, vague people. The YouTube has just like outperformed and we track all the clicks in hieros and whatnot. And like we just see that the people that go to a calendly or they book a call from a YouTube long form, like they just spend more money on the phone.

Yeah.

Because they're willing to sit there for 40 minutes just like a podcast like this. If they're willing to watch this for an hour, they're going to, you know, be more willing to spend more money on something. Maybe they're looking to buy from you. They're looking to buy from you. Whatever it is, they're going to be willing to do so because they got more of it than just a 15 second reel. That's why it's good to have short form and long form and then ads on top of it to give people context on what your offer is.

Yeah. And so do you think, do you like the strategy of just pulling short form content from your long form or do you think it's good to make long form and then just make your own, like little 30 second short form stuff too?

Yeah, I mean, the long form, like taking short form for long form, that's fine. Because when you just like, I feel like when you force short form, you force yourself to say things to make it look gloated on camera, when it should just be taken out of long form like a podcast or you go on stage and speak, let's say you do a keynote that 45 to an hour, you're gonna find a good like 10 to 15, 20 clips that are like really gonna hit. And you weren't trying the whole time. You just had a good value piece or someone from the audience asked a good question, or you had a good conversation starter and someone replied back something funny. Like you're doing it nonchalantly.

Yeah.

So it just looks better to the audience. And that's a transparency piece. Like when people try in front of the camera now, I just see like a drop in conversion rate. For sure.

Yeah.

But when they're having nonchalant conversations and something good comes out of it and it's like real life, it's just a better piece of content. For sure.

Yeah. And that's what I struggle with too, as I'm starting to build my personal brand and my social media presence. It's like, what, trying to figure out what should we do? Right. Should it be whiteboard talking? Should it be our own little short clip? Should it be long form, you know, speaking like in front of a group and stuff like that? And how do you feel about that? Like, is there one strategy or is it more of just like what you feel best at and most natural at that you're going to end up being consistent with and sticking with.

Yeah, I mean, I think it comes down to the person too, because some people like getting in front of the camera and having a script in front of them and being like, okay, like these 15, 20 reels, I'll just knock out. But some people are in the bit, like, because we're both really busy business people. So we're out there, we're doing our thing, we're doing a keynote, we have a podcast, we have calls with clients, we have this thing to go look at, we have this office to go to. Like, we have all these things that we have going on. So it's easier for us to be like, okay, if I do a keynote, I'll just take the closer to keynote. But for you to sit down, sometimes it's like really, really bottlenecking and just force yourself to like record reels.

Yeah.

So it depends on the person's schedule. Depends on like what you know, their avatar is and how they learn too. Because, you know, some niches, like, you know, real estate investing, like, sometimes they need more longer form content to understand, like what that kind of deal would look like. Not a 30 second reel. Talking about the deal, what were the, you know, contingencies of the deal, Yada, yada, yada. Some people in ads just want to see results. So they just like short form. They just want to see, hey, how much did you spend? How much did you make? Sick. I'm in. But they don't really want to know the, like, the complexities of it because that's what they would then be paying for. So it's like, it really just depends on the avatar and like, you as a person. Because some people are not really that great on camera. Yeah, like, they're not, they're better in podcast form. Like if I go straight at the camera, like, yeah, I'll do well. But it's more nonchalant for me to be on a podcast. Plus it's actually better to be on a podcast because of the authority angle. Like you're getting interviewed or I'm interviewing you and it's like you're already in the place of authority. You don't have to try that hard.

Yeah. And that's what I love. I love people and connection and podcasts. And when you just put me like talking head, I don't like it. I freeze up, I clam up and I'm freaking weird. Like, I just doesn't feel natural to me. But it's hard too, because you can only guide, I don't know, podcasts in so much of a direction. So if you're doing like direct, I'm selling a coaching program. Like, obviously, that might be a little bit harder from a podcast format all the time versus talking head about the coaching program. Right?

Yeah, it's a lot tougher. And then also, like, with, like, the long form to shorts, from what we've seen, is that, like, all of the things that are just, like, not, like, triggering, but, like, you play a fine line on both sides have just done a lot better. Like, we were talking before about, like, dating questions and then, like, politics, those things will always get views because people are going to give their opinion on something that they want to have confrontation about. When you make a post about, here's the three things to watch out for in a real estate deal. Here's the three things to watch out for if you're wholesaling. Okay. But, like, that's things that are out there that no one's going to confront you about. But then if someone made a video that's like, oh, here's why Airbnb is better than wholesaling now, you might piss some people off who are wholesalers. You're going to piss people off for Airbnb hosts. Or if I made a video saying, hey, here's why it's better to not cold plunge when you go to the gym, or here's why it's better to do the sauna first instead of the cold plunge first or whatever the hell I would come up with. But, like, those things have two conflicting sides or opinions.

Yeah.

That will always get more views because people always want to know that their voice is heard. So whenever I come up with, like, content or I'm in the middle of speaking, too, when you start making content longer and longer when you're speaking, you're going to turn people's questions into a clip. So, like, I'll get a question from an audience and I'm like, all right, I can say something really funny right now. Like, I know what I can say. And it'll get a lot of views. Like, you just get a knack for it. It becomes, like, an actual, like, muscle or behavior. And then. Yeah. I mean, like. Like anything that has two sides, like, that just crushes.

Yeah.

Even though it. Sometimes it makes someone look like. Well, people will say it's like, neediness for attention, but, like, it's just the way that the world is.

Yeah.

Like, I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of things to say online that are crazy, but at the end of the day, it's like, it gets views.

Yeah.

So forget it.

And it. And that's true. Right Because I think that's. It's like indie president. Half the people want him dead, and half the people will die for him or her, whoever. Right. And so it's just. I think it's the same thing online. Like, I'm somebody that really believes in authenticity. I don't know how else to be. Like, I just say whatever I say and that's it. And I don't really care. Like, if you don't like me, great. That, that's. I'm not trying to get everybody to like me. I'm just trying to be my authentic self, do what I enjoy, stand up for what I believe in, and then also just provide value as much as I possibly can to the people that are my audience that. That are going to resonate with me. And if they don't resume resonate with me, then great. But I know a lot of people are really afraid to talk about politics or sex or money or power, all of which are things that I talk about openly and freely. If you're like, oh, shit, like sex, money and power, like, what the heck, you know, like, what is wrong with you? I'm like, those are my three favorite topics.

But.

But, you know, I think what is your opinion on talking about things that are obviously going to be controversial and obviously are going to be big triggers like, especially politics or rich versus poor or whatever these types of things are. Do you think it's bet? I mean, I guess you've kind of already answered it, but do you think it is worth the backlash that you get ultimately in the long run?

Yeah. It also has to be. Could grow into brand. Like, Andy Elliott has the brand of just yelling at guys and getting them really fit, making them masculine. But if it's the brand, because everything else he posts is like the same thing and all the programs have names that would be like, more masculine. Like, everything's like congruent in the ecosystem. With me, I'm a psychological person because I'm in marketing. So when I talk about things, I know the psychology behind it. So I'll talk about it, but the brand doesn't match. Sometimes, like, I'll say stuff and I'm like, all right. Like, I know this will get views, but it doesn't match all the other content because it's like, all right, why the gym is trash? Here's how to make your ads better. It's just like, it's just off sometimes.

Yeah.

And to me, it's just whenever I started getting more views on more viral content, like, it did attract the wrong People, though, like, it did attract a bunch of people who either, because they hated it, they would. Like, we had a time where for a straight month, like, we could not run ads because we had so many views coming through all the gym video crap. And we couldn't book any calls because everybody would book a call on the calendar and be fake. It would ruin my calendar.

Oh, really? Yeah.

So that was backlash. Like, that was pretty bad. And then, like, you know, people would spam report my tik tok. I got two pages taken down, so I had to pay to get them back. And, like, it's actually an expensive habit to say things that are bold. So, like, if you post a crazy video and Instagram takes you down, like, people will, you know, there's people that I know that will get it back. But, like, it's expensive. So it's like, all right, you're going to do that. And then you're like, all right, five figures here to get my Instagram back. Sick. All right. And you say another video, it goes something on tick tock. That goes down. Okay. There's a couple grand there. Okay, cool. And it's just like, is it really worth it?

Yeah.

Long term. Yeah. Because if someone's not knowing who you are or at least hearing your voice or knows you by face, like, I just don't think it's. I don't think it's that, like, impactful. Like, I want people to know who I am for good and bad reasons because I feel like. I feel like life isn't always about bad. Having this, like, rainbow of always good and saying the right thing just to make people happy.

Yeah.

If you have a really crazy belief about something, like, just say it. And if people have anything to say about it, then it's their fault.

Yeah. Like, I'll talk. And I think it's just as long as you're true to yourself. Like, I think it's stupid to just be saying stuff to try to go viral, because it's just. What's the point in that? You're just not true to yourself and you're just asking for attention. And how is that even converting? Because you're not, like, being, like, with your brand and on your brand. But, um. But. But I think it's good to be bold on things that are aligned with you and things that you believe in and things that are truly your experiences and how you feel about stuff, because someone will resonate with you. And hopefully that is your target audience that you'll ultimately be able to convert into leads, which is the ultimate goal with advertising? I mean, you have a history of what, a four time, 4x4x ROAS lifetime. And what, what is roas for the.

Audience return on ad spend.

Okay, and what is like normal or good?

Normal. The average I think is around like a 2.5 to 2.7 ish.

Wow, that's awesome.

Above average.

That's awesome. Cool. Yeah, I know it's, it's hard working with any media company. I've spent multiple six figures on bad ad agencies, you know, before I found you too. And yeah, I'm like, I don't ever want to hire an ad agency again. That's why I do organic stuff. I'm like, I don't even want to pay for any advertising. But at some level to grow to a certain point, like you said, you can't, you can't just stick to organic forever. I mean you can, but if you're really trying to scale or really trying to get your message out, you have to start spending. So where do you see the best or is there a best, like platform to spend money on ads? Like is it YouTube vs Instagram vs Facebook.

At first, Any offer, I'll prove it on Facebook and Instagram first. Okay, so I'll sit there, I'll, you know, launch a Facebook ad campaign and Instagram and I'll let that run for like a week or two, see if that's like the ideal audience. Do you like the leads? What's the quality? Feedback? There's always feedback loops when working with people. Like, hey, like, what do you not like about this? Or the verbiage, the messaging, like what's not hitting the right audience, et cetera. If you have a proven offer on Facebook, you can go to YouTube or TikTok next either or. Because Facebook and Instagram are technically the same thing.

Yeah.

So it's like, then I would go to YouTube, but YouTube's good for VSLs, YouTube's good for webinars. YouTube is not always good for like application book funnel. It's tough. It's just going to cost more per lead. Yes, they're more qualified but like at scale with the lack of trust that people have now in the info prod education business world, like it's a lot tougher to close people on the phone than what it used to be. That's why we transitioned a lot of our stuff to events. Like we run book call funnel but close rates are down because people are losing trust. So okay, let's do events. And then I got the office here and like the, the events is what bridges the gap for us right now. Like the events are great and it's a good way to build trust. Because people really don't like my niche. It actually sucks because seven years ago I thought marketing was fun. I was like oh my God, I'm a little kid frickin doing this marketing thing. Like I'm about to move out of my parents house. Like this is so cool. And then now going deeper into the industry, like people really don't enjoy paying a retainer going to an agency. And I was like why though? And then you had people getting thrown to like these three dollar an hour VAs. And I saw all these people trying to cut costs and I was like this industry is actually insane. So that's when I was like okay, well we gotta have events, you know, webinars. We gotta have better salespeople. Like we'd have all these other, other things that costed me more money to train and bring into KPI. So it made things pretty tough. And I felt like from seven years ago to now like coming in this industry like it was. It's a really hard niche to like actually scale. A lot of people start an agency because they just want to make 10k a month. That's everyone's dream goal. Let me just make ten grand a month. And I'm like bro, little do you realize that's not enough. But whatever you, you make ten grand a month and then you're like oh, I still can't get a Mercedes. So people were just so lost about it. And yeah, like just scaling age was the hardest ever did. Yeah, so freaking hard. It still is hard.

Oh let's say what's been the hardest thing about it?

The people, the employees like, like you're great to work with, but some people are nuts. Some people are insane. Like I can't even just. Yeah, going down that, that rabbit hole of just like I. And it comes down to like, you know, like my age group and people even younger. Is this like expectations world? It's so bad, it's terrible. Like people will pay someone money, they're like okay, I own this person. And it's like no you don't. You paid for a service. You communicate, you collaborate. Maybe there's some ups and downs, technical difficulty. Okay, fine, we're people, we. We make mistakes. That's just human error. But then some people go over the top with the expectations. Yeah, like we had a client recently, brought them on for video editing. They're like we didn't get a million views this week. I'm like, you have 8, 000 followers. You expect a million views in a week. We just started. He's like, yeah, but this other guy promised me a million views a week. I'm like, that guy's full of. There's no way that's real. So I was like, okay, interesting. But like some people will just do that to themselves and it's the self sabotage. And it's like, I don't know, I'm seeing a lot of it now. Now that people's emotions are more hyped because of the election and they're uneasy about where the world's going. Like all these wars and stuff going on, everyone's head's all over the place. Like, regardless of how calm and collected. Because I, I truly feel like the people who make money are calm and collected. Like I don't focus on all that stuff. Like, okay, yeah, if we get hit by a nuke, it was meant to happen. I wasn't gonna avoid it. Like, what do you think? I'm just gonna like run into a bunker and avoid the shit. I was gonna be dead anyway. So I'm focused on things that I can control. And the people who are less off are always the ones who are the most controlling. And the freakiest is crazy.

Yeah, that's, that's what I've noticed too is like especially being in real estate and lending and high ticket sales space, right? I've noticed that people are, that are doing their first investment or buying their first home or doing their first loan or whatever, their first fix and flip. They're the biggest pain and pains in the ass to work with. And because they're scared, they're scared they don't have money to lose. I was there too once. Like once you start to have more money and you start to work with hiring clients that aren't so panicked and they're more comfortable and they are more experienced and they, it's not life or death if they lose some money or whatever or they don't get a million views or get a million sales or whatever. They're just so much easier to work with. And it just makes you not want to take any lower end type clients because they're.

Yeah, there's like, I don't know what the stat is, but there's like 29 million small businesses or 30 million small businesses. I think like 60. No, there's 95% of them will fail within five years or 10 years. And like even the ones that make a million dollars or more a year, 60% of those break even or lose money. So you have all these people who are just not making the cut. They have the business as a side hustle, and then on top of it, they're like, not really making money at all. Even when they say they make seven figures, they don't make shit. So it's like. And that was an accumulation of all the things online, all the, you know, like, people flashing shopify, drop shipping screenshots and like, all these niches and trends that soon went out and now it's like, how many real entrepreneurs left are there? And it's really tough to find them. Yeah, like, it's so tough. But, yeah, I mean, it's. It's definitely changing, for sure. Like, I'm seeing a lot of different buying behaviors. I'm seeing a lot of different personalities. I'm seeing a lot of different. Like, the way that people view money and think about money and investing and all these things. Like, I don't know. It's crazy. I think that the biggest thing that's going to change probably over the next two years is definitely the emotional intelligence of you and your team. Because if you're not able to psychologically understand people, like, you're just gonna get left behind, you're gonna lose sales, you're gonna piss people off, you're not gonna have the right, you know, like, you know, fulfillment. You're gonna have bad customer issues. Like, I just think that that's a really important skill that I had to learn. It was just like, emotional intelligence. I just don't think most people have that.

Yeah, people hire for hard skills and they fire for soft skills. And it should be completely opposite. Like, we need to hire for. I hire for soft skills. Like, how emotionally intelligent are you? How good are your communication skills? How good is your ability to respond? Like, responsibility. And just so many people are so. I don't know, I think have so much trauma and they're so disconnected and they're so. They're just. They're. They have a lot of problems that they haven't worked through, and then that gets taken out in their job and in their life and to clients and customers, and they can't be. I think that's like the highest attribute to really good leaders and CEOs. It's not that they're the smartest. It's not that they have the most technical skills. It's that they're the best with people. Because people are always the hardest thing in every business. Especially.

Yeah. With hiring, too. Like, it's hard to hire people now. It's hard to find people who are hungry, who want to work. It's hard to find people who you hire them and then they're still doing side and it's like, why are you doing side? Oh, because like, living costs are higher so I have to make more money. Like, we just can't pay everybody 10 grand a month for every single position. Like, it just doesn't work that way.

Yeah.

And it's just like, I don't know, I think the Internet, like ruined a lot of expectations for people. Even though it's a great thing, it's still like, it got into people's heads the wrong way and like, definitely seeing the effects years later for sure.

So if you like giving advice to people who maybe they have a small business or they're about to start a business or they're looking to scale their business, what do you, what would you say is the best approach to getting on? Like, maybe they have a small social media following. So what would you say is the best plan of action when money's more limited, but they want to grow and then obviously use profits to continue to grow? Like, what would the best approach be as far as a marketing plan and building a personal brand and building the brand of your company?

I mean, biggest thing I'd say is that whenever I start with anybody new, I'm just like, okay, cool. Like, what is your offer? Like, what makes you different? What do you do in one sentence? And a lot of people can't give you that answer. They're like, oh, I replace windows. I'm like, no. Like, when I talk about an offer, something that's so irresistible that makes everyone go, oh, I need that. Where it's like, okay, I replace windows same day with no money down and we have pain. Like, things like that, that are trigger words for good offers. Most people will just say what they do in just one simple sentence. But there's no unique mechanism, there's no differentiation. Like, they're doing the same thing everybody else is doing. Get a free estimate, get a free quote. It's like, dude, shit's so old, everybody else runs the same thing. So. So, like, you know, when people ask me what I do, I'm just like, hey, I help coaches, consultants, service providers generate a forex roas with paid ads. That is my one line results driven promise. And like, that's what people come to us for. They don't come to us because they just run ads. Everybody else runs ads. You can find an AI bot to run Your ads, even though it'd be trash. But, like, you can find someone on Fiverr to run your ads. You can find someone on Upwork and all these different sources or whatever. You can find someone in college to run your ad brands. I don't freaking know. But, like, these things need to have determination. So I'll take offer. And then the second thing is like, okay, where are your ideal customers? Let's say they're mostly on Google. Okay, well, I'm going to have you prioritize your SEO. I'm going to have you prioritize YouTube. I'm going to have you prioritize, like, your Google listings and your Google images and your indexing and your blog posts. Like, where your customers are is where you need to draw your attention to some businesses. They have their audience on Facebook and Instagram and they're so focused over here on something else. They're like, oh, my funnel. I'm like, no, focus. They're over here and they just get so shiny with all these different strategies in a funnel and a new website and, oh, I need to change my branding on the. On my Instagram subtitle. Like, no, your customers over here, you need money, you need sales. Like, go over here. And I just think that, like, shiny outer syndrome and then, like, distractions really catch people off guard. And then like, you know, back to what you asked. It's, if you don't run ads, you will never expose the problems that your business has. When you're running stuff organically, you don't know what your problems are because most of your business has been referrals. It's been, you know, just through your website, it's been through Google listings, Google calls. Just stuff that's organic or a friend told someone about it that is not predictable. You can't just, like, wake up tomorrow and be like, I know that I'm gonna get 10 leads today if I run ads, and I know your cost release, 10 bucks and I'm spending 100 bucks a day, you're gonna have 10 leads a day. If I know that your cost per call is 60 bucks and I'm spending 600 bucks a day, you're gonna get 10 calls a day. You know that your calendar will always be packed. And that's the biggest advice that I'll give people right now is that as ad costs rise, it's going to be harder for you to join that barrier of entry. So you have to get in soon. Because more and more people are starting to realize that organic is more competitive. And then Two is, is that they want to hire. Sales teams hire people. The most motivated organizations that I've been a part of are the ones where they run ads. Because everyone in the team is just so pumped and motivated to get the most every single lead, to help the customers the most, to make relationship with the clients, ascend the clients more, get them to spend more money, get them excited about stuff, have events, all these things. Like, they have the best cultures because everyone's on the same page. And when you're not spending money or investing in the team, you can't go to your team and be like, hey, guys, you should be motivated because we make money organically. It's just like, you got to inspire the people around you too. And growing a big team like we have, I had to learn that the hard way because I was all about referrals in the group chats. And like, I love referrals, but my team doesn't see that. They just see that the client was happy. But Wojo Media has no presence online. Like, what does he do? Like, I don't know who our CEO is. I have no idea. And then I went into the whole personal brand route and now they get excited. They always bring up all that funny video, like, blah, blah, blah. I love watching your content. I saw the podcast, or I love YouTube, I watch your videos at night, blah, blah, whatever it is. Or I watch your fan, I watch your videos and I, with my family and on the couch, like, we like, love listening to you. And I was like, okay, sick. Like, my team's more committed now because now they're bringing in from work to, like, now their families know about me. And it's just like, it's. It's a better environment for them to be a part of. And if they're not running ads, they're not going to have like that predictability to not just like, get more customers, but never have to wake up again and be like, where are my customers? Let's say another 2008 happens. When 2008 ever happens again, we're going to make more money because businesses need traffic. They're going to need traffic. They're either going to sell their business, I'll buy it at a discount, or they're going to need traffic. So, like, it's just this thing where, I don't know, I just see a lot of people who don't run ads. There was this guy this morning that I spoke to. He was making like 500 grand a month with a coaching program. And I was like, okay, sick, he's like, I only do it organically. And I'm like, okay. Like, that's impressive. I'm not going to lie. I was like, what the fuck? Yeah. And he was like, dude, I do this organically. Like, I'm just really afraid to spend money on ads. I'm like, afraid? You make 500 grand a month, you make $15,000 a day. What are you afraid about? He's like, I just don't know if it's gonna work. I'm like, bro, you have so much money that you're profiting and you don't even notice it, like, what the hell is going on? So also, it's like a belief thing too.

Yeah.

It's like I'm putting up money. It kind of feels like the casino, it's kind of like a gamble, but it's not like you're betting on yourself. And if the offer is good, everything else is dialed in. You have the right person behind you, it can be effective. But like, even things like that, that I'll see. I'm like, damn, you made that, all that money organically, that's great. Like, hats off. But like, what if that just completely collapsed tomorrow? Like, I had a client once, Shopify store had a bunch of viral tick tock videos and they had Taylor Swift make a video for them. This girl bought a four million dollar warehouse. She bought $800,000 in inventory. She was killing it for two straight years. We had this ad with the Taylor Swift necklace and it crushed until it didn't crush anymore. Taylor Swift's, I guess manager emails them a cease and desist and says, you can't use the video anymore. Our agreement's over. We tried using different videos, shit tanked. The product wasn't as sexy anymore and now she's in debt up to her ass because she's got a $4 million warehouse and 800k in inventory that she couldn't sell. No, she like, it's insane. All that was organic. And then she was like, okay, I can't do that organically anymore. I have to go do paid ads. And it was completely different ballgame. She wasn't, she didn't have all the cash flow to then go find and spend the money on ads. She spent it on inventory in a warehouse first. If she would have had the 4 million bucks and how much she put down, whatever. But like, if she had a couple hundred grand to use to build out paid ads, she would have had better success and wouldn't have been so stressed out when she lost the Taylor Swift video.

Yeah, I can't have all your eggs in one basket. I love that you talk about that because someone who's. Most of my businesses have all built, you know, organically and things like that. And the couple times I had tried to hire Agen sees and it didn't go well, then people can get really scared really quick because it's expensive. It's expensive as hell to run ads and to pay a manager and to try to figure it out yourself that you don't have time to run your business, like unless you can hire in house someone that you can trust or something. But that's hard to get to that point too. And how do you know that you can trust them and what's their reputation if they're just an employee? So, but it's just like Alex Haro, you know, I study him a lot and advertise, like no matter what business you're in, you're in the marketing business. Because if you don't have marketing and advertising, you don't have a business. And maybe you do certain market cycles, but like you said, you're not going to be able to have predictability in that. And you can get into some really big trouble when things come down and you have no measurable metric for where your leads are coming from and the consistency of those leads coming in. But. So, okay.

Start with a giggle. I'm like, here we go.

Yeah, Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I want to ask you though, where did you like, what actually got you into advertising?

I was, I was in culinary school for a year. Dropped out, went through my party phase in college.

And then where were you living? Here.

I was living in New York.

Oh yeah.

I'm a New Yorker.

Manhattan.

Yeah. No, no, I was living in Newburgh, New York. And then we went to SUNY Delhi for college. So I went there for a year, then dropped out. Hated school. I freaking hated it. Oh my God, it was so bad. I just, I. I didn't even show up to half the classes.

Yeah.

And then I wind up I was flipping Pokemon cards instead of going to class. So I had like this shoe box of Pokemon cards. I would flip them online and do like small ebay stuff. It was like a little side hustle for me because my dad wasn't helping me out much. My dad gave me like 80 bucks a month. I was like, bro, what am I gonna do? 80 bucks a month? I had like, I couldn't do. So I did that and then I dropped out, went back home My parents. And then from there I had like three jobs. I was going to business school part time, I played college tennis. And then I was doing all the stuff on ebay still. And then saw a video from Tai Lopez, picked up his 997 course, went through that, did like all the free trial pitching to local businesses. Got some barbershops, restaurants, started posting for them on social media. Nothing ad wise yet. It was all just organic post for us. Made cool graphics on Canva. That's when Canva started coming out. That was the. And it still is. So did that. And then I don't know what, what really. It was just, I was just doing stuff with clients. And then one day this client's like, oh, I see this Boost Post thing. And I was like, boost post. Oh. And then, you know, they wind up clicking it, they spent some money. And then I was like, oh cool. Like I found what Facebook ads manager was. And I went through another thing of Tai Lopez's course. He walked through that more and started offering it to the clients. I was charging like 300 bucks a month at the time. So cheap.

Oh, I want that deal.

Yeah, I was charged 300 bucks a month. I was like, I was so freaking like young that I had no idea the aspect of money because my parents never made a lot of money. Like my parents together maybe made 80 grand a year, which in New York is not a lot of money. Like you can't really do much. I lived in a thousand foot square foot, like trailer thing or whatever you want to call like a mop, whatever the hell you call those things. They put them on trucks. Module homes. Yeah, like pre made, manufactured. Yeah, I lived in one of those. And I actually didn't even have a bedroom at a closet because my sister would live in the one bedroom. It was a two bedroom and my parents were in the second one. And then I had like the section between the kitchen and the hallway and it was like this little last room. And like I remember when I used to sleep and I had my legs would touch the wall. Like my feet would touch the wall because it was so freaking tiny. So lived like that for 18 years. She was crazy. And then, geez. And then I just saved some money while I was working three jobs, had the clients, I would go to them, you know, at night. Reason why I got so many barbershops was because I would work all day, have tennis, get out at 7. What do guys between 30 and 50 years old at a barbershop do at night? Chill out, talk crap about Their wives and have bourbon. So I'd go to the barber shop and I would just like chill out with these guys and they would like, let me have bourbon. I was like, you know, I was like 18 years old or whatever, 17. And I did that. And then that's how I would shoot their content. I would have him cut one of his friends and we would just shoot videos and whatnot and I would just run ads on it. And then I wind up getting more into ads. And then I found this brand called Hustle Island. It was a T shirt brand. They did like a free plus shipping offer and I bought one of their T shirts, started making videos online. Back then it was easier to grow organically, so I would get like good amount of views. I get like 30k views a video. Back then I was like, oh, shit. Like people always used to comment like, oh, this kid's so cute, so tiny. I was like, whatever. So then I did that. And then like this brand reached out and they're like, yo, we're going to send you some new hoodies and stuff. Like, we're gonna send you free stuff, make more videos. And then I wind up making all these videos for. His name was Greg, still my friend this very day. Made the videos, sent it back to him. And then he was like, yo, dude, these outperformed all of our ads. And I was like, oh, okay, like just shoot me more stuff. He's like, nah, dude, come meet me in Connecticut. I live here. Like, let's have lunch. So I went to lunch with him. He's like, hey man, I want someone that I could like fly around the country and go and front of certain monuments and I would get flown around the United States and I would make videos in front of like the fountain in Las Vegas. And like I did the Boston baseball stadium. I forgot the name. I think it's Fenway maybe. I don't know. I would go in front of these monuments and shoot videos with the T shirts. Then we would run ads locally to people in the area, said it was congruent to them. So like, you know, like New York, Statue of Liberty, like stuff like that, that I would shoot in front of them. And we just run it like a 50 mile radius. And we did that. Took, you know, kept doing that for like 11 months with him. I learned click funnels. I learned funnels, activecampaign ads. I learned all these things about free plus shipping offers. The upsell, the downsells, the tracking, all these things. I learned so much with Greg after like 11 months I think we had 22, 000 paying customers. He sold the company. He sold it. And he's like, oh, you guys are on your own. And that was my best friend Troy at the time. We were like, what do you mean we're on our own? Like, bro, I'll be real. Probably you, dude, I don't have any money anymore. Yeah.

Yeah.

So then I went back home, and then Greg's like, yeah, but I got an assignment for you before you go. He's like, there's the Atlantic City soccer team. They want you to shoot content for them because I know the coach. So I went to Atlantic City. They had a soccer team there, and I got to stay in the hotel in Atlantic City for three months for free. And I just stayed with the soccer team. And I'm not gonna lie, to use the coolest three months of my life. Like, literally, no joke. I was 19, and I was drinking. No one asked me for my id, because I would walk with the soccer team. I would gamble on their card for free. It was so much fun. I even had my own hotel room. I was just like, everything's getting made for me. The bed, cleaning, all that. And then after that, I wind up getting done with the summer before I decided to move. And then that's when I moved to Orlando. And then I just, like, went all in on the agency because Greg let us go. So I was like, all right, I gotta figure this out. And the best way that someone. I forgot what video was, but someone was like, oh, like, the. The fast way you're gonna grow is if you move away from home. So it's like, all right, moving from home. And then I found a place on Facebook marketplace, for, like, 700 bucks a month. I just Facebook message the guy, and I was like, yo, I need this room. He's like, who are you? I'm like, look up my Instagram. Like, I'm not a creep. And then I FaceTimed him, and I Venmoed him 700 bucks. And then I drove down there the next day, I started my new life. That was it.

Love it. Never looked back, huh?

Yeah. Never looked back.

Yeah. Have you ever thought. Because, you know, I call the podcast Relentless because it's just about never giving up. And this. This stuff's really hard, like building. But life is hard. Most entrepreneurs have some sort of trauma from their life. Most people in general. Right. Whether they know it or not. And the journey of building a business, especially without backing from parents who are entrepreneurs or who have financial backing or mentorship or anything like that. It is really freaking hard. And there's a lot of times that most people fail, and so I always love to hear, like, the people who don't, and they are relentless in that pursuit. Like, has there been times where you wanted to quit and almost failed?

I think the worst. The worst time. Well, I was maybe making three grand a month when I first moved to Orlando and I got a dog. This was the one day that changed my perspective on everything. It's making three grand a month. I had a dog. I had this dog for three weeks, and dog wound up getting sick. And I was like, oh, it's kind of sucks. So it would, like, throw up all its food. It wouldn't eat. And then we took it to the emergency vet one night because it was all, like, blue. Like, the dog, like, turned blue. It was freaking wild. I was so scared out of my mind. So we go to the emergency vet, and, like, the doctor's there, and she's like, okay, the surgery is nine grand, or we can put her down. And I look back at that one moment that always, like, with me so hard because I decided to put the dog down because I didn't have the money. And I was like. I think I always had a pledge to myself that I would never let money get in the way of, like, life, like, a living being. And I always felt so bad about that. And that shit haunted me for weeks. Like, it was so bad. And I think that's what, like, I wanted to give up at that point, because I called my dad and my mom, and I was like, yo, I'll be honest. Like, I just need, like, a month off. Like, I just don't have the money. Also, I had maybe 1800 bucks left. I was like, yo, my rent, 700 bucks. Like, I might be. I'm just being upfront with you guys. And they were like, you could always come home if you want to. And I was like, should I really go home? I was like, all right, the dog's not here. I didn't have money for a bed frame. I slept on the floor. Like, I just had, like, a small ass futon crappy thing. And I was like, all right. Like, what do I do? And then I wind up getting a message from this guy, Jason. Granted, him. And he was like, hey, dude, I. I have this. You might know who this is. Maybe, maybe not. But hopefully he's like, dude, we have this talk where I get on Tuesday. I think it was Tuesday or Wednesday, where we get a bunch of mortgage lenders Together. And we just talk about the market and drink one. And I was like, okay. Like, at the time, I'm not gonna lie. Like, I was actually like an. Because I was so mad about everything going on that I was like, dude, what the. Do you. I was so mad about. I was like, dude, like, I'm stressed out. Last night, dog died. Like, what is going on right now? I was up till 4 o' clock that morning also. I was up T4O'. Clock. My. I had another barber from New York who still kept me as a client. He was in Florida. I had to drive to Miami the next morning to be at a bar Barber Expo at 8 o'.

Clock.

So I had to drive four hours. So I was up, didn't sleep. 3 o', clock, I got one hour sleep, got up, drove four hours to Miami and filmed him at the barber expo. And I'm still, like, low key crying in the car. I was just like, so distressed. And then. Yeah. And Jason's like, hey, I got this thing. You can come on here, talk about SEO. And I'm like, bro, this is the last thing I want to do right now. And it's free. It's like, all right, I'll do it. So I go on this. This live zoom, and we're. I'm presenting, and this one person in the chat had no camera on. And she's like, call me tomorrow. I want to hire you. I was like, oh, sick. This is good. And her name was Jennifer Beast. I don't even know who that is.

I think I've heard the name.

She's the number one female lender in the entire country for va and she. I didn't know it until the morning after. So I go to sleep. I'm like, all right, I'm going to call her in the morning. Like, at the time, I was needy, so I just, like, called eight times. I was like. So she's like, I'm in a meeting. I'll call you in an hour. Still didn't call me back. And I was like, this is like, I need the money. So then she wants to call me. She's like, all right. Like, here's what I need. I need YouTube, thumbnails, long form. I need blog posts, I need ads, rank, and I need. I forgot what else I was doing. Like, WordPress optimizations, new website. Like, a big package. Like, it was pretty expensive at the time. I was like, all right. And then content, too. And I was like, all right. Like, I could do that for like three grand a month. She's like, that's it. It's like. And I was like, this is terrible.

Yeah.

And then she's like, hey, my dog's gotta eat. Like, just think of a better number because I'm. Be honest. Like, I'm not gonna pay you because it sounds like garbage. And I was like, what did she just say to me? So then she comes back, and she's like, okay, what? Like, what. What should I pay you? I was like, all right, let's do five. She's like, honestly, I just don't think it's gonna be done that well if it's only five grand a month.

Wow.

And I was like, what the hell is going on right now? And she's like, all right, here's what we'll do. We'll do seven grand a month, and you just add on a bunch of this other shit. Fair. And I was like, 7,000amonth. That shit changed my life at that time.

Oh, my God.

And then she's like, I have an amex card. Are you ready? I was, like, ready for fudgeing. What? I was like. I was like. And then I'm. I got the stripe thing up at the time. I just got approved for stripe. So I'm on the screen and I'm putting in the stuff, and, like, I saw the check mark go through for the 7,000. I was like, holy crap.

Wow.

And, like, that was the day where.

Like, gives me goosebumps.

Yeah. Kind of my money beliefs went to. Went to waste. But, like, yeah, that was definitely the one time I wanted to give up trying to think, like, was there a second time? Actually, the second time was when I was already doing well. I was doing well. I had a ton of money saved. And, like, I had an event at my house in Tampa. I used to live in Tampa before I moved here. And I had an event, and, like, there was this girl I was talking to, and, like, you know, it was cool, and it was a good vibe. She flew into Tampa. We had this event, and, you know, we were just getting to know each other, yada, yada, yada. And I remember, like, that was my first event I ran where I neglected my business for, like, two straight days, which is very weird to be, like, saying that. But I neglected it because I was running my first event. I was consumed in the event. I had it at the house. I was dealing with the food and this and that and that. And, like, we had so much fun that weekend. Probably one of the most fun weekends of my life, because I had all my friends in one place, everything was going really, really well. And then, like, for some weird reason, I. I dropped her off at the airport Monday morning, and then I had a bunch of calls the rest of the week. I drop off at the airport, and I'm driving away, and for some reason, I passed out at the wheel. And I had a white McLaren at the time I passed out at the wheel. I started hitting, like, some cones by the airport where they, like, block off some entrances for, like, their golf carts. And so I'm driving, I hit, like, a couple of orange cones, and I passed out. And I didn't hit the car, thank God, but, like, I had a couple of orange marks on the front from the. From the little cones. And then I wake up, and I had, like, a panic attack. It was the weirdest ever. And then I wind up, like, taking this water bottle I had in the back, and I pour it all over my face. My seat's all wet, and I was like, hell's wrong with me? So then I wind up driving back home and. Drive back home, get upstairs. And I had another panic attack. I think it was because, like, I felt like I was leaving all the fun at the door. Like, I had the panic attack that I was going back to a business that I didn't like because I was bottlenecked. And I was like, oh, my God, all the fun's over. I'm about to be back in the. And I had all these calls lined up, all this stuff. And, like, I wind up passing out upstairs again, I had a huge panic attack, sweating like crazy. Like, IBS sweating like it was crazy. And then I pass out, and I wind up sleeping for a whole day. I wake up the next morning, Troy walks in the room. Troy's like, bro, where have you been? And I'm like, dude, I just been sleeping for a couple hours. I missed a couple calls. I had to refund, like, two people. I was so mad at myself. I was like, I missed two calls. If people paid for, I had a refund them. And then I had to deal with that. I had a charge back because I didn't show up for the call. Someone did a chargeback that fast. I was like, jesus. So then that happened. And then I wake up, and I'm like, dude, it's Tuesday. He's like, yeah. I'm like, bro, I've been sleeping for a whole day.

Oh, my God.

I did not wake up. He's like, bro, are you okay? And, like, my face was white as hell, and it was just, like, the craziest experience of my life. Like, I had a massive panic attack. Like, I was losing all my friends because I'm going back to my business. And that's when I decided to just hire a team because I was so bottlenecked. I was doing everything. I was taking all the sales calls. I was doing all the fulfillment. I was doing all the strat. I was doing all the things. Like, I was making good money, but I was freaking not happy. I was not okay.

Yep.

And that was the one time where I was like, okay, I saved enough money. I think I might just quit right now. Like, I think I might just, like, quit and just, like, find something better. And I had a really bad problem with, like, believing in people. Like, I just didn't trust people. I had a bad control problem with, like, not hiring things out. And I thought that I was the best in everything when it wasn't the case. And that was the biggest hump I had to get over. So that was. That was definitely the second time for sure.

Yeah. I've heard that, like, adrenal burnout, too, is just. You do so much. And a lot of entrepreneurs were. We had to do it all. We had to grind. We had to control everything. And usually no one took care of us before. Like, nobody did it for us. So we learned, like, okay, the world is unsafe. Nobody's coming to save me. I have to. If it's going to get done, I have to do it. And people suck. And the people are unreliable. And in a lot of cases, that's true. But there are good people, and they're just really hard to find. But building a team and letting go of the reins. I remember letting go of my email and calendar.

Oh, my God. That day was like when someone's logging into my Google account.

Yeah.

Oh, shit.

Oh, I have. My. My staff are, like, in my. My medical records. Like, they see everything. My. They're in my. My. Yeah, there and everything. The only thing I. I 100% control is my text messages. But even sometimes that I'm like, I'm about to give that up. I'm almost at that point where I need a new number because I get, like, hundreds of text messages.

I had to change that eventually.

Yeah. Yeah, that was bad, but no. Well, thank you for sharing that. And so you shared a little bit about your childhood, but can you share a little bit more about, like, how was your family environment? Was it just, you didn't have a lot of money, but they were good, or was it kind of rough?

It's kind of Rough. Like getting a new pair of sneakers for me was like an intervention. It was like a family discussion. Yeah, I mean, it kind of sucked. I didn't have much choices. Like, it was just like, I was like, hey, we go out to dinner, we can't go to Longhorns that much. We got to go to like Perkins. If anybody knows what Perkins is, you know what I'm talking about. But like, Perkins was our spot. We had a Stewart Airport diner near us that was cheap. Like, those were the choices that we had. If I want to go get sneakers. It wasn't Foot Locker, it was Champs or it was pay less or like that. And it was just like those were my choices at the time. If I wanted to get a new video game, I had to buy pre owned. That's just the way it was. So instead of 59 bucks for a new game, it was 49.99 or 54.99. That made a big difference for my dad. That was just it. And then like, you know, a big part of my childhood was like basketball. It was a huge thing. Before I got into tennis. It was a huge thing for me. I put a lot of time and energy into basketball for probably like 15 years of my childhood. It was like the thing that I wanted to blow up. And I was really good. And then I didn't grow like everybody else did. In high school, I fell very behind my. I had human growth hormone issues where I wasn't growing as fast as everybody else. So when I got out of ninth grade, going to tenth grade, I was still 41170 pounds.

Really.

I was small as hell. Junior year, 41170 pounds. And then senior year, finally started sprouting up a little bit. Had to take some HGH to help me out. I did not make the, the junior and senior team. And like, it sucked because I was getting recruited 9th and 10th grade, it was going so well for me. I was like, all right, like, I could probably play D1, like, this is it. And then the just completely went south. Yeah, it was terrible. So that was one letdown for sure. And then I was doing tennis too at the same time. Tennis was really fun. It was a good sport. Was more of a mental game than a physical ones. That's where I started to get like more mental toughness. Because tennis, like, people don't realize, like, yes, it's very stamina driven, but it's very psychological driven. Like, tennis is not as much physical as people think. And then, yeah, I mean, like, childhood was fine. My parents never got Divorced, never fought. Me and my sister never get a relationship, though. And that's where I think that for years, I think that was why I was single for so many years. Because I did not have a good relationship with the couple of women in my life when I was younger. Because we would always disagree on things. Like my sister would always disagree with me. She'd always like, put me in this corner or a box and be like, oh, we can't hang out with you. My friends don't want to talk to you. It was like this thing where I was always like the closed off nerd who played video games all day. Like, that was the ordeal in the household.

Yeah.

And I liked video games because it was fun, it was, it was creative, it was enthusiastic for me to like play in an artificial world, as bad as that might sound now saying it, but it was like sometimes that world was better than the real world for me. Yeah. So I enjoyed that. And still not close to my sister to this very day, things just did not go well. So it's like. And then, you know, my mom was always the safe person. Like, be careful. You're going out. Be careful. Be back by seven, be back by eight. I'm like, bro, no one's doing shit before 8 o'. Clock. Yeah, everything happens at like 10. And those things had to get over. But, yeah, I mean, I had a pretty decent childhood. I mean, like, yeah, I definitely had my rounds of my dad, for sure. My dad was pretty physical, for sure. He always pushed me to, like, One thing. He always drilled into my head that I think that most people don't have, which I'm very thankful for, was common sense. My dad drove common sense. Like it was his thing. He was like, you're like. He would say things to me, be like, you're an idiot. Like, you are not smart. I was like, oh, okay, that sucks. But video games I'm good at. And my dad would always keep saying it to me. And then I started realizing in the real world that I really wasn't that smart. Like one day I. I was starting to learn how to drive. Now drive to the cafe. Remember, it was one of the three jobs I had. And I didn't bring my glasses in the car. I had to use glasses to drive. And I still didn't bring my glasses. In the pitch black dark. And we're driving and I hit my neighbor's mailbox and my dad freaked out on me. He's like, we don't have money to fix people's mailboxes. And like, and I realized I was like, dude, I'm so stupid still that I didn't think to put my glasses on. And I don't have good eyes. Like, why am I not thinking this guy clearly? And I was like, dude, to be honest, because no one told me that I was wrong until my dad was like, I would see my. I. I learned a lot in life from seeing what my parents didn't like and did like, and what my parents said and didn't say. Like, the most aggressive conversations were always about money. When the bills came in the mail Friday night, like, I knew not to sit next to my dad while eating dinner. Like, that's where got intense. Like, all. Like, my mom would go grab the thing out the. The COVID flap. The mail will come out. My dad would go through it. Oh, you sent 190 texts this month. That was 20 cents a text. Because we didn't have enough money to have the unlimited plan. My dad would freak out on me. And then, like, that turned into, like, slamming the dinner table. And then I didn't want to eat anymore. Like, that's what it was like. So I don't know, just like, all, like, scarcity. And then, like, yeah, like, whenever I did something wrong, like, playing ball in the house. Play ball in the house. One day, I remember this day. Oh, my God. I had a. I still have a knee mark on my knee. Playing ball in the house. It wasn't even my fault. Playing ball. And I throw the ball. It goes off the crevice of one of the door hangers, and it hits my mom in the face. And my dad's like, you do not hit your mom. I was. I didn't hit my mom. I threw the ball, and it actually hit my mom in the face. My dad took me and threw me through the front window of the house. Literally took me, picked me by, like, this, and then the back of my pants and just launched me through the front window of the house. So we had to, like, put tape up because it was so cold in New York at the times. We had to put tape up. And then we didn't have windows for three months. I was like, three, four weeks. Yeah. Because we didn't have enough money because a front window like that says two, three grand.

Yeah. And it takes time to measure them and cut them and get them. And. Oh, my God.

I think it was nuts. So then, like, you know, that was a funny event, but that taught me a lot of things, like situational awareness. Like, why did I not think about not throwing the ball, like, did I not think that it could not hit? Plus, she was eating dinner. Like, why was I playing ball while my mom was sitting on the couch eating dinner? Like, that was a stupid thing to do. Now that I think about it, because I'm older now, more situational awareness. I feel like more of the things that I learned through life were all through pain. So it was either through loss of money or it was through getting hit, or it's getting through, like, literally sitting there with myself in the corner and be like, am I actually an idiot? Like, it might be.

Yeah.

I don't know. Just things like that. That really shaped me for sure.

Yeah. Our failures definitely teach us our greatest lessons. It's. You just gotta live by failing and fail forward. And I. I fail all the time. And I. So I know, me, I. We didn't have any money growing up either. And my dad was extremely scarcity mindset. Like, would unplug the toaster when it wasn't being used because he thought it was taking too much electricity. Yeah. Like some serious, you know, crazy. Yeah, like it, you know, 90 degrees in the house in the summer.

Did you have the plastic things to squeeze the toothpaste out?

Those were too expensive. Oh, so.

Well, my dad would get these things from Walmart. They're like 90 cents or whatever. And it would squeeze the. Out of your toothpaste until you had to use a new tube. And I remember. Oh, my God, those things were so hilarious.

So funny. No, yeah, we. My dad would only shop at the Dollar store. Oh, yeah. That was it. And.

Well, that's where I got most my Styrofoam plates and stuff. My dad's usually a lot. Yeah. Or stop and shop. That was the thing that's not in a store anymore. But stop and shop was a huge thing back then.

Yeah, the. That. My mom would get birthday cards from the Dollar store and. Yeah. Love, Brad. But anyway, so. Because my dad wouldn't buy us anything or it was so paranoid about having no money. He worked at a pawn shop. He still does. Works at a pawn shop in South Phoenix, West Phoenix, wherever. I, like, was obsessed with making money. Like, I was absolutely obsessed with starting businesses. How can I make money? What can I sell? What can I do? And, you know, I became. I became very materialistic because I couldn't have any of that stuff growing up. So, you know, of course now I have all the shit that. The G Wagons and the Rolexes and the this and that. But at a certain point I got all that and I was like, well, I still feel empty. Like, that didn't necessarily fill all the unworthiness and shame and lack of self worth that I had inside of me. And that's why now I'm on this more journey of connection and healing. A lot of that stuff that served me for a period of time, but it doesn't necessarily serve me any longer. But was that similar for you? Like, were you kind of obsessed with money and the things?

Yeah, I did it because I didn't want to live the life they did when I was a kid.

Right.

Yeah, that was one reason. Second reason was I got picked on a lot. So I used it as a way to be like, f you to everyone who ever, like, talks about me. That was definitely a thing for me, for sure.

It's like, where you find your self worth when you don't feel like you have self worth as a kid.

Yeah. And then also, like, the other side for me was like, I was so lost with, like, identity issues. Like, I just didn't know who the hell I was. I was like, okay, I just, like, do stuff online. Digital marketing. Oh, sick. And then, like, I started spending money on things and I was like, what does this thing mean to me? And I was like, absolutely nothing. It's just like, an object.

Yeah.

So I had to get through that too. And that's when I was still, like, afraid of going out and, like, being who I wanted to be. I was still in the box of, like, yeah, here's what I think people want instead of who I am. Yeah, it was tough. It was tough pill to swallow, for sure.

Do you think you've healed from that or do you still feel kind of like your identity's in your production and in your business?

I mean, I have like a. See, here's the crazy part about that question is that I still feel like my identity is in work. But I replaced all that lack of identity, which is having closer relationships with people who I wanted to have, like, be friends with. So, like, I have, like, my work side and then I have, like, my, hey, we got to eat, we have fun and we watch movies and we do fun shit together group. And that's the group that, like, actually likes me for me. So it's like I separated those two, and I feel like I finally found that, like, balance that I was looking for. Even though balance is, like, kind of fictitious, but, like, in the crazy business world, like, that's what I kind of wanted. And I also just wanted, like, that establishment of, like, peace in my life. Yeah. It's like, all right, like, I worked so hard to figure these things out and like, I just want to be able to sit at home sometimes. Like, people always make fun of me because I'm a homebody. Like, why don't you go out? All this money go out. I'm like, dude, that's the last place I want to go. I want to sit at home, old fashioned, watch a show. That's it. Play some music, play the piano. I just want to relax people. Like, that's boring. I'm like, dude, it's a lot better sometimes to be silent, peaceful and bored than to be stressed poor and whatever the hell else you want to add to the list. Yeah. And just having fun. Like, what do you quantify as fun?

Right?

Like, I don't know, it's just, I feel like everybody goes through different phases in their lives and I had to go through that too. I bought all the stupid crap and I had to get it out. I mean, I still buy stupid now, but like, it's so. It's just like, you just get it out. Like you have this urge.

Yeah.

And it's hard to control it. It's so tough.

It is. Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. And that's all I want too, is peace. It's like my whole kind of external and internal world has been just chaos and war really. And I just want peace. You know, I actually had a DMT experience like three, four days ago. Yeah, I'll talk about that on another podcast. But I literally realized that it's just war. It's been so much war inside and in my life and. And then everything just went completely peaceful and I felt this overwhelming peace that I've never felt before. And I was like, that's what I want. Like, that's true freedom. And yeah, it's, it's, it's freedom, but cool. Well, I know we're running out of time here, so. But thank you so much for being here today. We'll have to get into the. The struggles with dating on the next episode because I want to talk to you about that. How old are you?

27.

27. So we're the same age. I just turned 28. Damn, you're younger than I am. Just a baby. It's hard out there. It's hard out there. Well, I'm used to dating like 45 year olds, so.

Oh, fuck.

Yeah. Not by choice. It's just most 27 year olds are pretty much.

Well, that's what I'd realized. I had to date women older. See I could not date women 20 when they're 27. Like 24 to 28 was so tough for me to date them. It's hard to find women between those age groups that have a head on their shoulders.

Oh, same with guys.

So freaking tough.

Most of them are like, smoking weed in their parents basement, playing video games.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. They're total boys. They bring home like three girls a day. It's so stupid, but it's. It, it's tough. It's so. It's hard for you to. Are you single right now?

Yeah.

Yeah. Are you a relationship junkie?

I mean, I don't know what the.

That means, but are you usually single or are you usually in a relationship?

I've been single for a year and a half.

Oh, okay.

So that's year and a half, two years. And before that was a relationship for a year and a half. And then before that I was in a relationship for eight months. And then before that I was single for my whole life.

Okay.

So I've only been. Two relationships I've been in.

Yeah, I'm. I'm always in a relationship. I'm not right now, though. I. I got out of one like two weeks ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, it's. It's definitely a challenge. It's hard to. And then you. When you get burnt so many times. And then I had a struggle with my dad and my brothers, you know, not being great to me. I. I have trust issues with men. Even though I love men and all my friends are guys and I do business with guys, and I. I'm like a guy, but at the same time, I'm like always one foot out the door, you know? And in a way, I mean, I.

Like, the biggest, like the hardest thing for me, as sad as it sounds, is like the commitment piece. And I hate to want your freedom. I like my freedom. But when I'm with somebody who I really like, the. The fear of commitment just scares the out of me. And it's so bad. And I know it's terrible because I'm like, okay, like, I like this person, but like, do I really want to sleep next to this person every day.

For the rest of my life?

The rest of my life? And sometimes the answer is like, nah. Yeah. And then when I'm alone, I'm like, I kind of don't want to be alone anymore. It's just like a push and pull.

Yeah, it's. It's. Do you want to get married and have kids, do you think?

Yeah. Yeah. I Want to get married and have kids. Probably just one kid, though. Like, I mean, the. The thing for me is, I'm gonna have a kid. It better not be a girl. I'll be so pissed. I'm gonna punt that thing. Let me start. I'm so mad. If it's a girl, I'm gonna be so pissed.

Why?

I need a boy so I could teach him, like, all the. All the. And things to avoid because I don't know how women think when they're 5 to 18. Like, I don't know anything. Yeah. For a guy, I'm like, dude, I could help this. This. Really avoid some pitfalls.

Yeah, I get that. I resonate with that. Because you're not a girl, so. And then you hope not. Fought with your sister, so you're like, that's 20, 24.

You can be anything now.

That's true.

Have you been married before? Not engaged.

Two and a half engagements, but no marriage. No marriage. I. I quit. Yeah. I quit on that.

Quit. You just, like, left the match. Damn.

Yeah. Game over. Yeah. No, it's.

Fuck it.

It's rough. It's rough out there. Yeah. You know, I want to find someone.

Yeah. The right person will come along for sure.

Yeah. But then I think that, too. I'm like, can I really see myself?

I mean, here's. Here's a question for you. Is. Is okay. I could be wrong. Okay, don't. They'll be like, there's no clock that's ticking. Do you feel like there's actually a clock that's ticking when you're 20, 28? Right.

Oh, well, women have a shelf life.

Yeah.

That's a chapter in my book.

Do you think, like, your clock, like, where you're gonna be like, okay, like, where's the man I'm spending the rest of my life with? When do you think that urgent is it? 31, 33, 35? Like, when do you think that's gonna kick in?

Well, I don't want children, so for me, I don't have that thing to worry about. And it's really hard because, you know, a lot of the people I have in my life, a lot of them, the. My relationships are men. Most of them. Almost all of them. I have, like, two close girlfriends, and they're entrepreneur kind of dudes, too. But most of them are men, and most of them are very successful and powerful, and I see. I see what they do. And it's, like, really hard for me to trust knowing the shit that people do. And I know there's a Shelf Like I've been the one that they trade their wife in for, you know. But now I'm going to be 30 in two years. I'm 28, so I'm still young. Youngish. But most men will say a woman peaks between. I think the studies say it's 23 years old. I hear a lot of guys say 28 years old. So it's like you have to be, there has to be more to a relationship than you being a sex object. Because if you're just a sex object, you're just going to get traded in every time. And so there has to. That's why it's just difficult. And when people, and I'm the same, like, I can have whatever I want right now. And when you can have whatever you want, it makes you really question, like, are you, is this what I want forever? Like. Right. And so it's just.

Because then you're like, oh, I have options.

Yeah.

So if this is not the 100 thing that I want, then I can always just substitute return policy.

Yeah. And the better you get, the higher standards you have for yourself. Like the more beautiful or handsome you you get or are and the more successful you get and the more emotionally intelligent you get and good with people and communicating and all the things, like the better you become as a person, your standards elevate and the more self worth you have for yourself, your standards elevate. So like what I used to put up with, I won't put up with that shit anymore, you know, And I won't even go down that road. Whereas guys used to get away with a lot with me and I'm like, I can't get any cooler. Like I've let guys sleep with other people or I, you know, found out they're so bad, like bad, bad stuff. And I'm just like, I can't get any cooler, I can't get any prettier, I can't get any richer, I can't get any less dependent. Like I am finding the wrong people that are, that are using me for things, loving me for all the things that I could never wish to be loved for, you know, and so that's why I'm really trying to like step back and, and hope that there's a good, genuine relationship that is deeper than sex and freedom, you know, because those are a big piece of it. But it has to be a love that's beyond that.

Yeah.

So anyway, well, on that note, thanks for being here. It was a lot of fun.

I appreciate it.

All right.