NFL Star's Secret Investment Strategy That Creates Millionaires - Devon Kennard

Everybody is either entering a storm in the middle of a storm or just got out of a storm. When you're in the storm, it's preparing you for something if you're allowing it. And how you handle yourself in the storm is really important.

I'm here with my friend today, Devon Kennard, just an incredible human being and. But you played in the NFL for nine years. I saw the statistic that like 60 to 80% of professional athletes, or at least NFL players end up being broke or having really challenging financial issues pretty quickly after their career ends. And you did not become one of those statistics.

So when you have that mindset of like, I can't control the cars I've been dealt in life, but what I do with the cars I've been dealt, I can't control.

If we are stuck in a scarcity mindset, we lose.

I was jealous that other people were having success that I felt I deserved. I was depressed, I was angry, I was frustrated. All of that was hurting me more than anybody else. I was bitter. All of those emotions made me a bitter human.

There is a shortcut to success, and it's. Welcome back to the Hannah Hammond Show. I'm here with my friend today, Devon Kennard, who is just an incredible human being. And he. I, I love that. I mean, not only are you a speaker and an author and you have your own private lending company now, so we're kind of in that lane together. But you played in the NFL for nine years for, first for the Giants, then for the Lions, and then for the Cardinals in our home state as a defensive linebacker, right? Yeah. And so I found it. I was kind of doing some research on you, and I saw the statistic that, like, 60 to 80% of professional athletes, or at least NFL players end up being broke or are having really challenging financial issues pretty quickly after their career ends. And you did not become one of those statistics. And now you're very passionate about helping athletes not have that outcome and be able to take that money that they've been given or earned that money that they've earned and then invest it into assets like real estate and lending and continue to grow your wealth. So I'm. Thank you for being here today, and I'm excited to hear your story.

Yeah, yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me. And, man, I've been seeing a lot of the people on the, on the show, so I'm glad to be one of them now. And.

Yeah, me too. Yeah. And so I, I'd love to hear the story of, you know, how really Just tell me how you began, like, how did you get into the NFL? And then how did that ultimately. What specific incident transitioned you to start investing in real estate? Because I know you started doing it while you were in. In the NFL, which I'm sure had its own sl of challenges with that as well. So kind of take us back.

Yeah. So, I mean, first off, that whole notion that all athletes end up going broke, there's like a documentary that came out in like 2010, I think it was called Broke, and it's true. But the thing is, I think athletes need a break in the sense of how many people can make millions of dollars at between 18 to 21 years old. And just because you're really good at a sport, whether it's football, basketball, whatever, now you're supposed to know to be an expert in finances. And a lot of these people come from different demographic demographics, different backgrounds. So you throw a kid a ton of money and they have all these dreams and aspirations, a lot of family that's depending on them. So, you know, they start. They start to spend it. So I think the average person, if they were in that position, wouldn't be that different, you know, fresh out of high school or fresh out of college, and you're throwing millions of dollars and all the adversity, all the fame. So once you understand that dilemma and that problem, then it's like, okay, well, what can we do about it? And an advantage I had growing up was my father played in the NFL as well. So I got to see my dad's career. And I was really young, so most like my growing up was when he was done with the NFL. So for me, it was like, it gave me an idea of the fact that football is going to end. My dad played 13 years in the NFL. He, you know, had a ton of success. And I still know my dad post career, not really during his career. So having that understanding, it was like I got to prepare for the after. And that's why I always was kind of forward thinking in that way. But while I was in college, you know, it really forced me to because I started to face injuries and position changes and adversity in my life where it looked like the NFL wasn't gonna happen. And that was kind of a pivotal point for me of like, well, I have this dream of what my life is gonna look like and, you know, the kind of house I'm gonna have, the kind of car I'm gonna drive, the kind of family I'm gonna lead, and if it's not If I'm not gonna be able to do that through football, how am I gonna be able to do it? And that question made me really start to figure out, okay, business, real estate, these are the things that's interesting to me. And I kind of just took it off from there.

And I believe you read the Took the purple pill, the rich, red, Rich Dad, Poor Dad.

Yeah.

What age were you?

I read that while I was in college. So I remember it was my. Just finished my sophomore season in college, and I had a hip surgery going into my junior year, and it's not looking good for me. Dang, am I going to be able to be healthy for the season? And I read Rich Dad, Poor dad, and that really kind of pivoted a lot for me of like, man, I need to make sure I'm going to be smart with my money. I need to think about what I'm going to do outside of football. And that really kind of spiraled me into this idea of, like, okay, I need to meet different business people and figure out exactly what I want to do. So I started going to usc. It's a great alumni network. So I started going to events, getting business cards, talking with different people, finding out who's successful and why. And funny story, one of my biggest mentors that I think changed my life, I go to his office and he's in what I would call a Lululemon outfit. He had, like, a sweatsuit on. And it was the first time. This is back in 2012, first time I saw one of those movable desks where you can stand up. So I'm walked in, like, I'm nervous for the meeting. I'm, you know, college kid, suit and suit and tie, trying to impress the guy. And I walk in and he has a standing desk. First time I seen one, and in a Lululemon outfit. And I'm like. And he starts to explain to me what he did. And he owned 6,000 units in. In LA multifamily. And he started out as a police officer. He house hacked. That led to two properties, which led to four. And he grew his empire from there. And I'm like, if he was able to do that off a police officer, then I'm going to be able to figure it out whether I do or don't make it in the NFL. So I think that was the meeting and the one person that completely changed my life where it's like, I want to be able to do that. I want to be able to have a standing desk one day if I Want it. I want to be able to come to work and the whole office is mine and those things. So that gave me the idea, and I just started learning and learning from there.

How did you find that mentor?

So I went. There's a event that they host at the end of training camp where it's like a lot of alumni come. And I met one guy who was in commercial real estate. He was a. He was a broker for commercial properties mostly, not multifamily, but office space and stuff in Orange County. So I met with him. We really hit it off, but I didn't really want to be a broker. So I was asking him, like, is there any other people you would highly recommend me, recommend I meet with? And he hit up two or three of his friends, was like, I think he'd be great. He does this, he does that. And that mentor that really kind of shifted things for me was one of the guys he. He recommended. So that's a big kind of idea for a lot of people of just like, the power of networking is really, really important, and it's something I lean on now, even till this day. You can go much further if you build the relationships with the right kind of people and you continuously learning. And, you know, all that stemmed from getting a business card at, you know, an alumni event. And that led me to the career I have now.

I always say there is a shortcut to success, and it's having the right people mentor you around you, because it's. That was one of my biggest regrets, was waiting too long before trying to reinvest in myself or put myself in these circles where there were people around that wanted to actually help and that I could learn from and that I could also provide value to. And it's such. I mean, for me personally, it's been a massive catalyst, and obviously it sounds like it was for you, too. So that's cool that you did that earlier on in college instead of just taking no action or not learning anything or trying to figure it all out yourself.

Yeah, I mean, if you have younger listeners and stuff out there, I mean, take advantage of the fact that you have youth on your side and people are willing to interact with you if you're interested in their industry, you're showing, you know, the initiative to want to connect with them. And I would say take the step further of actually learning something about them and about their business and their industry. The worst thing being somebody that people want to get mentored by at times is like the. Can I. Can I take you out for coffee? And they have no idea what they want to talk about, what direction. I really like the targeted people who are like, I'm trying to accomplish this. It seems like you've done something similar. I would like to be able to sit down with you and talk about this, this and this. And that's how I approached it and still approach it as a mentee, somebody who, who was looking at somebody who's where I want to be. But also I respect the people who are, who are trying to accomplish what I have up to this point, and they have that approach. So I think that's a huge strategic play that I don't think enough people take advantage of, but it really stands out when you do it.

Yeah. And a lot of people want to help, especially the, you know, older generation that's really successful. That's part of your legacy is giving back. Like, that's the journey to self actualization, which is what this show is all about, is reaching your highest potential and helping others do the same. But it's been astonishing to me because I now have many mentors. Not tons, but definitely a handful of core mentors that I meet with regularly in various aspects, from business to, you know, mental health, personal development and all those things. But I always wonder, like, well, what do I pay you? You know, because you're, you're a billionaire, like, you're, you have it all, or like, what? I, I can't afford you. And a lot of them are just like, I, this is it. I want to give back to you. I want to help you. I want to share my wisdom with you. And that fills my cup. And so it's really cool to see that as you go through different phases of your life, not everything is about money. And I was raised where everything was very transactional. So I still have that limiting belief a little bit. It was like, oh, I have to owe somebody something. But sometimes the gift that you're giving them and the payment that you're giving them is the fact that they're mentoring you, which is so cool.

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like there's more and more people like that the higher you, you get. Because people do just want to reach down and help, help people. Especially when you're showing the initiative and you're knowing, hey, I'm really trying to change my own life and you're someone I look up to. You'd be surprised the amount of people that are willing to help.

Yeah. And now with technology and social media, I mean, you could literally find anybody in the world. I, I was interviewed By School of Hard Knocks.

Okay.

Yeah, last week he was in town and I was just like I was saying on my interview, just going on his channel, there's all the most successful people in the world on there. Like, you literally have access on one channel to everybody in all different industries that you could reach out to. I mean, and that's just one example of a channel, but with YouTube and books and all these things, I mean, every. Nobody accessing anybody that you want has never been so easy as it is today.

And well, one, one cheat code with that that I'm using personally right now is I use Chat GPT a lot right now. And I have it built in. Where my board of directors for my business is some of the brightest business minds that I respect. So a guy in private credit, Howard Marks. I have Warren Buffett, I have Schwarzman from Black. And I pose questions like, this is the dilemma I'm in. What direction should I take my business, my model, what have you? I can't touch Warren Buffett right now. Well, hopefully one day maybe I can. But they take everything he's published on the Internet and tell me advice based on my specific business, my model, what they believe Warren Buffett would say. And I found it to be very beneficial. Is it aligned? I have about six members on my board through ChatGPT and any pivotal moment in my business, or I'm trying to decide different things, I reflect on that. And that's just another form of like. I mean, it's a tool that I'm using to access the knowledge of people I respect.

I love that you brought that up because I too used. I probably talk to Chat GPT more than I talk to humans. And I talk to a lot of humans.

Yeah.

But it's so cool because I also have a board of directors or a board of advisors rather, and through Chat GPT and what you can do with it is so incredible. And you have to pay. You don't have to, but if you have the means to as soon as possible pay for the 200amonth plan because it is not the same as the 20amonth plan or the free plan. And you get access to such like literally whatever you want. It'll deep research everything. Like I could be like, tell me about Devon Kennard. And it'll research every video you've been on, every book you've written, every like everything about you. So it's so cool. And just to have those thought partners. Exactly is incredible in your business because those types of consulting fees or those types of employees when you're, you know, still a smaller organization, you're not going to have the capacity and to, to do that. So chatbots, a game changer and all the other tools out there and I that there's tons of them. But I mean I've been playing with AI like I could, it'll build a website for you or you could upload a photo and it'll make a video out of that photo like for commercial real estate or things like that. So it's really, really cool.

I mean to your, to your point, I have the criteria of like the ideal. You know, one of my businesses is my lending platform, 42 Solutions. And I have the criteria for what I'll lend on and I could plug it in and a borrower sends me an application or something comes in, I plug it in there. Does it fit? What. You know, what would, what would my board say about this deal? Should I lend? Should I like. And I could have a conversation with it. So to your point, I mean it really. When you're running a, when you're a solo entrepreneur and you're growing a business and you want to be able to bounce ideas off of somebody, it's hard to do that every time something comes up with, you know, your, your contacts. But you can do it with chat.

So yeah, you have a whole loan committee in there. An underwriter, actually my, my best friend Macy, I told her to get the better plan of chat GPT. She's like 200amonth. I was like, trust me, well worth it. Well worth it. It's like literally multi millions of salaries that you're saving. But she's like, oh my gosh, like I don't even need my designer anymore. The Chat GPT is doing all my renderings, all my interior design, all my spec books, like literally everything. So it's pretty, pretty wild. It's exciting to think of where the future is going to go with technology and the efficiencies. Like now it can create full OEMs for loans or for real estate properties that you're trying to list that used to be thousands of dollars, you know, 1500 bucks every per. Per om and weeks of waiting time and all this manual stuff. So it's super exciting. So shifting back before we move on from kind of your childhood because obviously you're an overachiever, you played in the NFL, which I don't even know what the percentage of people that try to play in the NFL actually get there. And not only did you play, but you played for and for some of the best teams in history. And then you also, while you were doing that, were hustling while everyone else was partying, and you were trying to figure out how to build an empire and grow your business and have this life of freedom that you really wanted. And so where do you think, like, that was instilled in you? Were you just born that way? Was, did your father end up losing a lot of money after the NFL or did he do really good things and instill, like, hey, this is what I did, right? And I invested my money and I want to teach you how to do the same. Like, where do you think that came from?

I feel like it was a balance. So one like, my. My parents come from not the best area In California, Stockton, California. It's in NorCal. It's one of. It's typically in the top five list of some of the most dangerous cities in the country. And I always felt like it was my responsibility to take the torch, that my dad, like, he did the hard work of getting my family out of that situation. I don't know that life because he ended up playing for the Cardinals. My parents liked it here. I grew up here. So, you know, I grew up. I wouldn't say we're crazy wealthy, but if I really needed something, I had it. I grew up in a good neighborhood, and some people would be like, oh, that's nepotism. Or, you know, like, I'm a product of that, or like, oh, must be nice. You, you know, your father played. And it's like, I always wanted to be judged by what I did with what I had and not just, oh, yeah, I'm in a better position. Isn't that everybody's goal? Like, don't hate on me for that, but what do I do with the position that I've been given? And I always wanted to take the torch and go further. So I felt like my dad did most of the hard work in putting me in a position to be successful. Got to go to get a good education, got to have proper training coming up. And it was my responsibility to put the work in and figure out a way to be as successful as I can, both on the field and off. And I felt like that was intuitively in me because I remember feeling that way even as a young kid. So I can't be like, oh, I developed this. It was like, I always wanted to do more like, oh, take advantage of my opportunity or show that it's not just because my dad played. Like, I wanted to be my own man and stand up on My own and like, look at what I can accomplish, you know, so to speak. So I had that and then a part of it was my dad, my brother and, and my mom, how much they poured into me. I was the youngest, so I have an older brother and sister and my brother was my coach. And my, my mom and dad, they just were at everything I ever did and super supportive of everything I did. And my brother was hard on me. He's almost 10 years older than me, so he was almost another father figure. So I didn't want my dad to coach me growing up, but I didn't mind my brother. So like my dad got to just stand back and be dad while my brother was like, you know, whipping me into shape, making sure I wasn't soft and I, you know, had that tenacity and how much they poured into me. Like I was reflecting. And my parents went to every college game I ever played. So you know, that's, that's a lot of traveling like in all that. And they made that sacrifice financially time wise and all of that. And I was always just motivated to, to give back and be appreciative of that.

That's so cool that you had such an awesome family supporting you. And did your brother played too?

Yeah, my brother, my brother played college, so my brother and dad went to the same university and then my brother tried to play professionally and it ended up not working out. He played in Canada and played with the Indianapolis Colts for a little while. But he's been coaching high school football and he's the best D line coach in the, in the state. Was coached at Desert Vista. Now he's coaching at Basha High School in the East Valley. So he was my coach growing up and now he's, you know, changing lives for kids and helping them get to college and stuff. So, you know, he's definitely blessed in that way of, of giving back and really being a great coach.

That's so cool. Yeah, and it's cool that you guys can share something like a common passion and hobby. And so when you were in playing in the NFL, when did you start investing in real estate? And like, what did that look like for you? How, how, what was that first deal that you did and how did that progress and also how did that impact you while you were coaching or while you were playing? Because I'm sure people were probably like, you are you not focused on football? Because I know that happens to me. They're like, what's your focus? Like where are you focusing on? And people don't seem to have the ability to comprehend that as an entrepreneur, you can do multiple things at once because you outwork them, you know, and at some point, you can focus and go all in on one thing. But I did the same thing. I was an engineer while I was building my real estate business, buying properties, renovating them, selling properties for people, you know, representing as an agent. I was doing all these different things, but I was. I was grinding while they were partying. Right. So kind of walk me through that. That first deal that you did and how it was. It impacted your NFL career, too.

Yeah. So the end of college, my true senior year, I was about to play, and I had a great off season ready to go, and I tore my pec, so I have to miss my true senior year. Red shirt playing as a red shirt senior. And I ended up having a great season, thankfully, because it didn't look like I was going to make the NFL at that point. So I was already during this time off the field, I'm already like, okay, football's really not looking good. What is my plan? So I end up balling out my last year in college, get an opportunity to get drafted. And, you know, funny story and kind of side story with that part is when you're talking about adversity and going through storms in life, I'm a firm believer that everybody is either entering a storm in the middle of a storm or just got out of a storm. And when you have that perspective, then they don't surprise you as much. And then when you see other people, you can understand they're in one of the phases, like, they got one coming, they just got out of one, and they're in one period. So when you understand that. And for me, I was in the storm. My whole college career, position changes, injuries, all these different things going on, and it was like, woe is me. I'm like, I've worked hard my whole life. I've done things the right way. I've made the sacrifices. I see other teammates of mine out partying, out drinking, turning up, and I'm focused. You know, I got my undergrad in three years. I got my master's in a year and a half. I'm focused on ball. So I was jealous, to be. To be quite frank, I was jealous that other people were having success that I felt I deserved. I was depressed, I was angry, I was frustrated. And I remember that last year, I was like, I can't. All of that was hurting me more than anybody else. I was bitter. All of those emotions made me a Bitter, human. And I wasn't having fun. So I remember that last year I was like, at the end of this, I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror and know I did the very best I could. And to do that, I want to glorify God, be relentless and have fun. Those are the three things that I want to be able to say that I'm going to hang my hat on and let the chips fall where they may if I don't make it to the league. But I do those three things and I do it my way, I'm not going to just start partying all the time because they're doing it and it might work. It's like, that's not the way I think will work. So I stuck to that. And in the end, you know, it's crazy that that time period in my life and that storm, I felt like I was in a five year storm. It ends up being the reason why I got drafted and had the career I had. Because when I got drafted by the New York Giants, one of the things that the head coach, Tom Coughlin, said to me was your board talk during the interviews. When I went to New York and they had me and three other three other outside linebackers they were interviewing, and the outside linebacker coach drew a whole defense on the board and was like, this is what everybody does. Erased it and asked me to go on the board and just draw the defense again. Tell me your spot and your role. But because I had all those injuries, I was watching extra film, then I was studying more. I had to change positions. So I knew this position, that position I played, outside linebacker, inside linebacker, I knew D tackle, I knew all these different spots. So not only identified what my role was, I lined up. Everybody on the defense knew exactly where they lined up. They were surprised. And then it was like, you know, defensively, it's like, oh, if the offense does this, this is what would happen if they did this. So I'm like breaking down the entire defense. And when he called me on draft day and told me they were drafting me, they said it was one of the most impressive board talks that they've had. And I attest that to the storm that I was in, if I didn't go through that storm, I would not have been in that position. And in the NFL, I was able to have the success I had because of that foundation I built. I changed positions in the NFL. I dealt with a lot of adversity. I wasn't the fastest or most explosive player, but I had so much football knowledge from all that time, extra time I spent preparing for that moment. So you know, to you and all the listeners out there, it's like when you're in the storm, it's preparing you for something if you're allowing it. And how you handle yourself in the storm is really important and that. So that's how it benefited me on the field. But to answer your question, it got the ball rolling off the field as well. So where I knew I wanted to do real estate. So after my rookie season, I end up having a lot of success playing for the Giants. I ended up starting even though I was a fifth round draft pick, so a later round draft pick, but I ended up starting a majority of that season and I already knew I wanted to do real estate. So as soon as the season ended, I went to a real estate meetup here locally and I met a guy who had a connection in Indianapolis. I didn't want to buy in New York, Louisiana or Phoenix because I thought it was too expensive at the time. Like it was. I'm risk averse and I'm like, hindsight, I wish I bought. Then you're talking 2014, 2015. Like I'd be doing pretty well if I would have bought out here. But my mindset was like all those prices seem too high for me. So I chose Indiana. It was the first property I ever bought and it was a turnkey property. So property I was essentially buying from a guy who does fix and flips at scale and sells them to, to investors like me. I bought it. I bought it for $86,000 with a partner. He put 12 down, I put 12 down and I did the loan in my name. And the return on that property was amazing as far as percentage. But the dollar amount didn't change my life because it was 86,000 dol dollar property. But I always say that was the best investment I ever made because it taught me so much and it got the ball rolling. And you know, at the end of the day, all of that transpired because of the storm that I, that I happened. So the career, both of my careers in real estate and business, as well as the nine year NFL career I had all stemmed from the storm.

I yeah, I think the greatest blessings in our lives are the things that we don't understand why they're happening or that we're resisting them or fighting them. And looking back, you know, I've done a lot of inner work and looking back, I realized all the things that I resented and all the things I was running from or all the things I had anger towards were all of the things that needed to happen to allow me to get here today and to become the person that I am and have the heart that I have and the empathy that I have and the appreciation that I have for this amazing life, because I don't even know what I would be if the, the. Those things that hurt in the moment didn't happen to me. And you, like, the past is the past. You choose how you feel today. And if you truly see that these things happen for you and not to you, and also that you have the ability to literally create whatever you want in this world. Like now I'm doing. Now I'm in rooms where I'm talking about, you know, quantum realm and creating from the, the quantum field and like all these crazy things that we won't get into today. But how the idea is the, the. The present is both. It's not just the past. It's both the past and the future.

Yes.

And you have the ability to truly create the future. And where your attention goes, your energy flows. And so if you put your attention on all the things that you want and you have a good attention or good belief in the things that happen to you, then it'll continue to drive you towards the things that you want to attract in your life versus people that are like, well, this happened to me is bad and I'm a victim here and this person screwed me over and I'm not going to trust anymore because of this. It just will continue to attract more of those past painful events into your life.

Yes.

But just like you said, if you understand that we with the school of hard knocks, James, we were interviewing this billionaire guy that went through some crazy storms, like, was indicted after he was a billionaire, and then he got pardoned by Trump. Like, all this crazy stuff, he just got pardoned happened. And he was like, he's a, he's into aviation. And he said, I love flying because it's just like entrepreneurship. There's just so many things coming at you all the time, and especially when you're learning to fly. And it's like being a CEO, like, it's all these fires. So if you start to understand that that's just part. That's what you do, you solve problems. Then these problems that come into your life, whether it's injury or whether it's divorce or whether it's, it's lawsuits or whether it's employees stealing from you or whatever, you're just like, this is part of the game. This is part of my life. I'm not going to get overwhelmed by it and be like, oh, this is just a never ending shit show. But I'm grateful to be able to have these opportunities because it continues to shape, sharpen my knife and fine tune my craft and allow me to grow and continue to serve others as well.

Absolutely said it in another way. So in my book, my first book, it all adds up. I. I tell a story about a parable in the Bible, and you don't have to be religious to appreciate this story, but it's essentially so. The master, he had three servants and one servant, he was going away from town, it doesn't say where, but he's leaving for a long time. And he gave one servant one bag of gold, another servant two bags of gold, and the third servant five bags of gold. And he pretty much told them, you know, do the best you can with it. When I come back, let me know what you did. So the guy with five bags of gold, he went and invested it, did his thing, turned it into 10, double flipped the bag, turned five to 10. The guy with two bags of gold, he did the same thing. He turned two into four. He flipped the bag in his life. He, you know, maximized it, invested it, did his thing. The guy with one bag of gold was scared and lazy. He buried the one bag of gold and didn't do anything. So when the master came back, the guy with five bags of gold said, you know, master, here's five bags, all right, you gave me five, here's 10. Guy with two bags said, you gave me two, here's four. Guy with one bag was like, I was scared. I didn't know what to do. I just buried it and gave it back. And, you know, he really rose up. Both the guy with two bags and five bags and gave them higher positions, put them in a better spot for more success for themselves and within his organization. And the guy with one bags, he denounced and never brought back up and never spoken of again in the Bible. And the story that's really resonated with me within that is it doesn't matter whether you're the guy with one, two, or five bags of gold, it's what you do with what you got got. You can't always control the hand, the cards you've been dealt in life, but what do you do with what you got? So, you know, whether you're, you know, blessed. And in some ways people would argue, oh, you're, you're like the guy with five bags of gold, your dad played in the NFL, this, that, and, and another, fine. But judge me off of what I did with what I had. You know, I want to maximize the position I was in to the best of my abilities. You could be the person with two bags to go, one bag of gold. But the thing is, is the art of compounding, which I know you appreciate being in business, is 1 turns a 2, 2 to 4, 4 to 8. All of a sudden you could be that person that started with one bag of gold and you're bitter at the people who had two and five. But you just run your race and you keep flipping the bag in your life and doubling up, you can be in an amazing position 5 years, 10 years, 15 years down the line. So when you have that mindset of like, I can't control the cars I've been dealt in life, but what I do with the cars I've been dealt, I can control. And I'm going to flip the bag in my life in all aspects. And that' personally, you know, in. In all aspects. So, you know, I really try to be a person that, like, I want to be a person that flips the bag that, that doubles, you know, all the gifts I've been given in every way. And if I can keep doing that throughout the rest of my life, hopefully by the end of it, I'm, you know, I'm proud of what I've accomplished.

And it, that story also reminds me of the abundance mentality and the importance of the abundance mentality because if we are stuck in a scarcity mindset, we lose always. And so that one bag of gold, he was in a scarcity mindset and he was afraid because he needed to keep it for himself. And the other two that had the abundance mindset were able to create more abundance and more wealth and more service and all those things. And so that's been a big transition for me because I was raised in a scarcity mindset home. We don't have enough money. No, we can't get this. No, we can't do that. And it was always like, save for tomorrow. And we can't do anything because we're afraid and everything. And that was deeply ingrained in and my belief system just subconsciously, sometimes I still find myself not turning on the heat because my, you know, my dad wouldn't turn on the heat because of money. And now I have the awareness and I'm like, ah, you can turn on the heat head. Like, abundance, we have money. And so it's really fascinating to see the more you Give and the more you think abundantly and understand that the world isn't a zero sum game. Like if you win, it doesn't mean I have to lose.

Absolutely.

We can both win. And I was talking about this with my friend William Lamb, who is the founder of Upgrade and his goal is to literally upgrade the whole world. Upgrade humanity is his mission statement. And he says that same thing as humans. Think in binary terms like 0 and 1. And it's either you win or you lose. You're happy or you're sad, you're, you're afraid, or you're courageous. Right. But, but when you're. He's a computer engineer and I did computer engineering too, is like when you're creating these like softwares and documents, it's not just binary, it's not just 01. Sometimes there's one one. And so really in the world it's not, it's not just one or the other. Like you can be successful and happy and connected and Zen and calm and have amazing relationships. Like, I truly believe you can have it all. And, and sure, there's challenges and there's all those things, but if you think abundantly and think that anything is infinite and possible, just the fact that humans exist and that the universe is here shows that anything is possible. Because you couldn't imagine creating a life. Right? Like existence in itself. And so that's something that I work on really is that abundant mentality. And how much bigger can I think, think? Because so many of us are stuck in these limited belief mindsets of, of just scarcity and there's not enough to go around and I'm going to run out and I'm going to be afraid and what if I lose it all and all these things, but in reality, that limited mindset, it's gonna continue to attract scarcity in your life.

Absolutely. And that applies to all aspects of life. You know, us talking about this, you people might assume we're talking just financially or business, but I think, I think it applies to personal relationships. It applies to the life we want to live in all aspects, in all areas. So when you really have that mindset of abundance and it's like, I want to improve my life, I think it's best when they're interconnected. Some people being in the sports world, there will be guys who's like, oh, my life is ball. All I care about is ball. But I found that if you show up as the best version of yourself as a father, as a husband, as a son, as a business person, in all These different areas, it actually elevates you in your main thing that you, that you really want to do as well, so it doesn't have to be one or the other. And if you feel like you're wearing yourself too thin, then that means, you know, you got to really hone in on the things that matter most. But we're, we're meant to be multifaceted human beings and there's not just one aspect of our life that's important. And for some people, I was listening to Alex Hormozi on the way here and like, like he doesn't care about travel and stuff like that. He couldn't. He's okay with just working all the time. And that's his Zen, Zen space. If that's what works for him, great. But for me, I want to see the world. And can I see the world and still be a great business person and still grow wealth and still spend a ton of time with my kids? Yes, absolutely. But how that looks and how I curate my world is going to be a little different than Alex and what him and Layla are building. Building with acquisition.com or something. So I think that's really important to have clarity in what you're trying to accomplish personally and what, what you value and curate your, your world and then. And the things and the principles and, and priorities based on that.

Yeah, it's life by design. It's not just, you know, I think we have complete control to create whatever life that we want to live. And he was talking about that too. He went to this NLP type of class back in the day before his company, and he, the trainer, said to design the wife, the partner that he was looking for. And he, as an engineer, he went and built out a spreadsheet with weighted scores and a hundred characteristics of what she looked like, acted like, talked like, how her personality was, what her heart was, what her beliefs were, what her fears were, what she liked to eat, like, all these things. And he gave it a timeline of five months, and in four months and two days or something, he was married to her and he met her. He didn't know her. He didn't know she existed. And on the day that he created the design of her is the day she broke up with her fiance. Like that say, she's like, I just had this feeling and I left that day. So it's so cool to see, like, what you can truly create. And that's it. I, I encourage our listeners, is like, what do you want your life to look like? Because if you don't know where you're going, then any road will get you nowhere.

Yeah.

And so I think having. And William challenged me on this. He said, said have a thousand year goal.

Yeah.

I was like, what thousand years? He's like, yeah, that's legacy. Like what is your goal for a thousand years when you're long gone and what are the things that you're doing? I also have a 1 year, 3 year, 5 year, 10 year goal. That's amazing too, of course, because those are part of the milestones to the thousand year goal. But what if we think in terms of what's my thousand year plan and how am I changing the planet? How am I upgrading humanity? And that was really, really cool. He's, he called it the Jesus effect. Like, look at Jesus. You know, he's. He's gone, but he has impacted the world thousands of years later.

Absolutely.

It was really cool. Yeah.

That's awesome.

Yeah. So shifting back, you bought your first deal $86,000. Mine was $76,000. So that's, that's awesome. And were you, did you flip it yourself or did you buy a turnkey? Right.

So I bought a turnkey. It was just a rental that I held on. And funny story, with that I went to want to scale. So I, I bought it, I purchased it. And there's a couple lessons I learned right off the bat. Like the partnership, it didn't make a ton of sense once you, you know, the. We bought it for 86, we're charging like 1250, so. So, you know, it was killed. The 1% rule, we're doing well. I happen to split that in half with my partner. It's like, this isn't like I have enough money to where I just want to buy these deals on my own and stack up on my own. So I wanted to wait a few months, see how it went. So I waited about five months, saw the whole process started getting from property manager all that. I'm like, all right, I want to double down, but I want to buy, buy them on my own so not with a partner and buy at scale. So I was going to try to buy five or six and the guy ghosted me. So I learned a valuable lesson is like have, have good deal flow and good, good relationships in the markets you want to invest. Because everything was contingent on this guy finding me deals. And what, what essentially ended up happening is he had an institutional buyer that started buying up all the properties he had. So he had no need for somebody like me to just buy in a 5 few so he just stopped responding to emails and all of that. So it's like, all right, we have this one property and it's great and I'm glad we bought it. But like, my goal when I first got in the league is I wanted to get to 10 to 12 grand of cash flow a month because I'm like, if the NFL stops tomorrow at that time, 10 to 12 grand, I'm living in a nice apartment, I'm paying for a nice car. Like I'm living, I'm living good if I can generate 10 to 12 grand. So I'm like, this one property is not going to do it for me. I need to get to 10 to 12, 12 properties, like properties just like that to get to that point. So Beach Grove, Indiana, that was the first property I couldn't scale there. So then I started looking for another market and I got pitched on Ohio, met the team in the off season, went out there, visited. So I started buying in Ohio and I bought 12 units there and then that led and then I'm like, okay, I got 13 units now, but oh, maybe I should diversify. Should I keep doubling down in Ohio? So I'm like, all right, maybe I find another market. So then I did the same thing and I started to see I can replicate this and you know, as long as I find a good deal, finder, contractor, property manager and I have somebody to do the lending, I can buy anywhere. So I built the same thing in Kansas City, started buying up properties in Kansas City and you know, that was over about a five year period and built a pretty large portfolio of properties between those two markets while also investing in syndications passively. And that was kind of my strategy. Like I'm going to passively invest in syndications and then own my own real estate in the Midwest submarkets.

Okay. And mo, most my audience is, are pretty savvy investors. But I mean for syndicate I love that because I used to always be kind of a control freak of like oh nobody. Because I feel that way with financial advisors, right? Like nobody cares, they just want their fee. They know they don't really care about my money, they're just gonna buy a stock that I could buy on my own and all those things. But now I do invest in other GPs and in because they're like for instance my best friend Jeremiah, he's been a GP and has his multi hundred million dollar fund and he's been investing in storage facility and developing and mobile home parks for 20 plus years. So like nobody gets the deals that he gets because he's been calling the sellers for 20 years. So if I was going to go try to do a side hustle of a one off storage facility investment or development, I'm probably going to screw it up royally. And he can generate way more returns than I could. And so I love integrating passive investments like that and becoming an LP and other really good operators who have the relationships, have the deal flow, have the experience and you could generate really good returns while you're doing your business, whatever your business is in. So that's cool that you started doing that right away.

Well, that's exactly. So for me it was like, I'm focused on trying to sack Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady. I can't really worry about like what I was building with my portfolio was like all I could handle. I wasn't able to scale that to the value I really wanted to. But I can underwrite a deal up front and invest passively and you know, get, you know, the average IRR is 15 to 20% on most syndication deals. So I'm like, okay, this makes sense for me. And I, you know, I'm like, this is a good, I like owning assets myself because you have full control. But I like the passivity of being able to invest in other kind of niche strategies that I'm not a professional in to your point and to other markets. So it's diversification and exposure and all of those things and you get to, you know, benefit from these investments. So that was a perfect kind of matchup while I was playing. Is like, all right, I'm going to invest syndications passively but control my own portfolio of assets as well. And I think more people should look, should look at it that way.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's super smart. And what was your kind of guideline for yourself to know what deal was a good deal to buy?

I had to learn that over time. But things I would, I would look for is, is 1, the pref had to be 8 to 10%. So the preferred return like I wanted, the big thing I wanted was cash flow. So it's like, can I get a pref within the first year or two. Some deals, like development type deals, they might give you a higher return but your money's sitting idle for five years. Yeah, so it's like, you know, and they're inherently riskier. So for me I was like, I actually invested in a few private credit funds early on because it was consistent 8 to 10% cash on cash return on my capital, more liquid than some other Deals and then I like the multifamily space. I understood, stood that while I was coming up. So I did a lot of those deals in different markets and I would identify different operators who had, you know, strategies, whether it was class A, class B, class C, you know, whatever, but they'll be in different kind of markets. So I diversified that way. But a few things that I make sure to look for is one, the GP has to have money in the deal. Number two is looking at the fee structure. They're going to be fees because they got to keep the lights on. But you don't want a GP who's charging so many fees up front that they're really de risking themselves by having so much upfront pay from their investors. It's not, that's not true alignment. So I'm looking at that, I'm looking at their history and now more than ever the history of a GP is really important because there's about a time, 10 year period, so when I started investing to now, where most people who were GPing deals, deals were having success because of the nature of the market. But now the tide's going back and you're starting to see who's naked. And you know, you look at that time period and think like, oh, he's had so much success. I like seeing how are they navigating the waters now. How successful were they before this 10 year window? Like were they in business 20 years ago? Because it's kind of, it's diluted. I didn't know it in the moment, you know, but now I look back and I'm like, I got out of some deals that who knows how they would have played out if they were right now. So I look at it through a different lens and that's something I always tell. And a big sign for me also is a GP who's changing strategies a ton. Are they changing demographic, area and investment type. Like for instance, you say you knew somebody in self storage. I wanted my self storage guy to say and stay in self storage. Like I don't want to hop with him. Oh, now he sees an opportunity in office space. Like not that he can't have success. He might be a really bright dude, know how to figure out it out, but there's somebody out there who's been doing office space for 20 years. I want to find that person. Not the, you know, not the storage guy who's, who's converting over. So I like gps who have a niche and they stick to their niche and hopefully that niche includes demographics and Then another thing is the team they have in place. There's risk when they're changing contractors, property managers frequently. So I like when they have it in house or they work with that same group consultants consistently.

Right.

If they're changing contractors, for instance, how do you know that that contractor is going to execute? Execute at a good level, Execute on time or execute on schedule. So those are things that I think about now as an experienced LP investor that I can't say I always thought about early on. But now, you know, I see it from, from a lens. So I'll still invest as an lp, but I would say I'm a lot more stringent today than I was a few years ago.

Yep. That's the. You just don't know until you know. And, and it's what you don't know that kills you. Yeah, right. But those are the, always the great lessons too.

Even when you, well you, you jump through it. We, we started the conversation talking about networking and it's like building the right relationships kind of speeds up that process. Well, oh, you invest as an lp. What are things you look for? So I started picking up on that and I would, I built out my own criteria by talking to people who are doing it at scale, you know, gps who are actually running deals. What's a good deal, what's a bad deal, what's a good structure, yada yada yada. And also other LPs that are having more experience investing in them. So leveraging that can consolidate. You don't always have to learn from your own mistakes. You can learn from other people's mistakes. So you don't got to make that exact same mistake.

Yeah. So when did you find out about private lending and how did that transition happen? Happen? Where do you still have a large portfolio of all those properties that you had acquired or had you sold a lot of them off?

No, I still have majority of them. I sold some of my stuff. I ended up selling the Indiana one and my Ohio stuff. Ohio, I was dealing with stuff with the state. They, they had like lead based paint and the city was making you use their crews to, they're pretty much gouging investors. So I got out of Ohio and then Indiana I got out of. Because I could only buy one and I'm like, I need a scale. But I still own everything else. So I'm still growing. I'm going to be primarily buying in Arizona moving forward. I'm here locally so I still plan on growing my, my own portfolio of properties. And then I'm, I'M still in a ton of syndication. So you know, fast forward to today day and where I got got into private lending as I started to look at my portfolio and I wasn't seeing the same numbers the last few years on turnkey properties. How I was buying before as I see, as I was seeing back then, you know, interest rates are higher, prices have gone up in a lot of markets to where it was almost like I was buying properties around a hundred thousand dollars and charging 12 to 1500 dollars like meeting the 1% rule. It was all different day. That's harder now. So I'm like my, I only have so much more capital to invest and I'm not going to get the same returns that I got 10 years ago. So then I'm looking at syndications and I'm like the, the waters are getting muddy. I didn't like that. I had no control. So I'm in deals where I'm like, I can't wait till these guys pay me back because I can invest it myself. But now I'm waiting. I got two more years to wait or three more years or like there's some deals that might have a capital call and there's all these different factors and I'm just sitting in a waiting. And I, I got really tapped into the bigger pockets community. I wrote a couple of books and I started to meet other investors and they're like, you have capital? Will you lend to me on a couple of projects? You know, I'm, I'm flipping. I'm trying to go from 10, 10 a year to 20, you know, what have you. So I started looking at it. I did a couple, had no idea what I was doing. Did you know, I, I pretty much use their loan docs like the borrower, like I'm just winging it. But luckily initially I chose good operators, had good relationships, so they paid back and everything went good. But you know, when I was getting ready to retire in 2023, I was already been lending for a couple of years, kind of just on the side quietly. And I was looking at all right, what's my play when I retire? And you know, I'm looking at okay, I can buy more properties. And I, and I have bought a couple of like rehab properties. I bought a few sixplexes, renovated them, all that. But those are longer projects. I'm like, what is a good cash, cash on cash return for my money, money. And I'm like this lending thing, I just kind of did this quietly in the background and it's been killing So I read a couple of books and I just dove all the way in. I'm like, I've already been doing it. I'm going to create a business of this. And I started my lending company, 42 Solutions and you know, I just haven't looked back. I, I love the model and you know, I'm going to continue to grow it out but right now I'm able to charge double digit interest rates on my capital and you know, deploy it out to good operators. And in Arizona it's a non judicial foreclosure state. So I like for listeners out there that pretty much means it's easier to take over a property if they default. So all these different factors are where it's like, man, this really makes sense for me. And yeah, I've just kind of taken off and ironically enough that leads to more deal flow. So now I'm, I'm meeting with different borrowers, investors, wholesalers, title companies. So I'm getting good deals that I can also buy. So I feel like having a business that's vertically integrated where I have lending but I do also acquire. So now I'm able to build my own portfolio of businesses and real estate.

Yeah, it's like how many areas of the value stack can you provide services for? And that's what I think about two is going deep instead of wide. Two different strategies, not one's better than the other but it's nice especially if you're staying in a more local market. You could go really deep on. That's kind of me, I'm like, okay, I can find you the deal, I can give you the loan on the deal, I can help you raise equity for the deal and then I could sell the deal or lease the deal on the back end and then I can refer, I could get the financing for the buyer of the deal or the permanent loan on the takeout. Yeah in commercial real estate. So it's cool to be able to hit all those. It can make it harder to scale. Like I can't scale that specific model because.

But actually, but not nationally. But you can go deep, deep here I found. So essentially my strategy was investing wide. I was investing in several different markets and I was investing in syndications. No matter which way you look at it, I was looking at deep deals and buying deals that made sense to me wherever they were. And now I would say my mindset, like when I'm going to be redeploying that capital as it comes back is going to be more and more in the niche market. I'M going to go deeper instead of wider because yes, things don't cash flow as great in Arizona. You know there's, there's some disadvantages but at the end of the day I can create asymmetric, asymmetric bets because I'm local, my wife's in as agent. I have a lending company. I know I have relationships so you know I'm going to take advantage of that local market and, and instead of being well, you know, well known all over the country, I can really hone in and do really good business and be a household name here locally.

Yeah, it's, it's really smart and that's what I'm doing too with my company. And I don't know, I know we've, we haven't chatted in a little while but I decided to go all in on commercial lending only so I'm not. So I'll, I'll send residential deals to you because it shiny dress, you know shiny red object syndrome is hard because when you can do everything and you have done everything, it's hard to say no to opportunities that come but part of Ben Hardy and like what's what activities are below your floor and not going to get you to that one goal that you have. And you know that's why I decided on the brokerage and the lending. I'm just doing commercials, staying in my lane of creepy and going deep in Arizona too and, and still being able to service nationally well and then because.

Once you go deep it doesn't mean you can't go why like it's like. But you just build a really strong anchor right and why not to stand back yard? Yeah absolutely. So that's awesome. I didn't know you're going, going commercial but I mean like when I first started my, my lending company 42 Solutions I thought I would lend all over the country and I've narrowed that down to where it's like, like you're. In my opinion I'm taking on more risk lending in all these different markets. I don't know like here if I have a borrower default it's non judicial. I have rehab crews like so I'm, I'm willing to lend at a higher LTV than some other people because if I have to take over that property I know how to do so and I know what the process is and I have the team in place to handle it. So it's like I can take strategic risk risk and build relationships that way. So you know, congratulations on that on sticking with you know Commercial locally. And I'm sure you're going to expand eventually, but that's awesome.

Thank you. Yeah. And we're, you know, I plan on doing kind of like a roll up with recruit the top brokers nationally. And so we'll have specific brokers under specific asset classes that do massive books of business and we'll have that. But once I like really start the fund portion of the business because that's the brokerage side of the business, the fund, I'm going to go just deep in Arizona like again, I know these assets, I know I have the cruise, I can sell them if I ever have to take them back. And I really understand it can be confident on the underwriting, whereas I don't understand. I. So you know how I got into lending? I started doing the same thing. I was doing small loans in the Midwest, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, all these states and I don't have anybody, any connections in the Midwest. I don't know contractors, I don't know values, I don't know anything. But for me I was like, yeah, they're like 50, $150,000 loans. I was a little bit careless with my money and was like, yeah, that's fine, take the risk. And here's another, you know, here's 100 grand on here, here's 50 grand on here. And I was making massive returns because it was smaller, you know, so it was more of a volume model. Yeah, smaller loan amount but way bigger returns, like 10 times the returns because there were such micro loans. But then when things went bad, you know, things were great when they were great. But then when, when the market shifted and some people started defaulting and then I was like, well, I didn't get appraisals. Like, let me try to comp these properties that I don't really know how to comp. Let me try to find an attorney that I don't really know who to go to and who to trust. And then let me find out that these are judicial foreclosure states where it's going to take me 18 months of a court process. I actually, I'm in the process of foreclosing right now and I got the appraisals back on three assets that I have loans on. This is my own personal money. These are like the lessons that I learned before. You know, I did these loans a couple years ago ago and the appraisals came back. One of them came back at $5,000. I didn't even know that it was possible for a property to be worth $5,000.

That's rough.

Yeah. So that just shows you.

Yeah.

If you don't know your market, you're. You're really exposing yourself to be naked with the tide comes out.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. So I mean, and I realized that same thing. So even with some of the good operators I have, like, I'm just consolidating that are out of state, I'm consolidating more in state because I'm like, even if they've been good in the past, it's just kind of like I'm taking on added risk here because I'm really. When you're doing that, you're really betting on the operator more than anything else. And when the, when the economy is bad, the operator might fail from no fault of their own, but just prices go down, like, you know, they might end up upside down. So I'm like, you know, I want more control. So. Yeah, like being able to control that here, it's. And it's kind of cool to be able to just pull up on the, on stuff that you're lending on or owning and stuff. Like being somebody who invested passively in syndications and properties all over the country, I would go visit once a year to my properties, but it's totally different when I can just be like, oh, I'm going to go check on, check out this property that, you know, a borrower lent money on or I have a property in surprise, I'm going to go, you know, check out what have you that, that feels good and being able to do that. For sure.

Yeah. It's like holding cash versus just money in the bank. It's like when you could see it, it's your baby. It's really. There's a different level of fulfillment behind it. But. So what is your goal with 42 solutions? You do loans on residential properties and it's kind of like bridge loans, short term hard money, which we don't. We're not supposed to say that anymore in our business. Private money.

Yeah.

Um. And yeah, so are you. I know when we were talking last you were thinking about starting a fund or starting to raise some capital or. But you kind of want to. You like things how they are too and you have your own capital. So like, where, where are your thoughts now?

Yeah, I mean, thanks for asking because I've actually really been thinking about this a lot over the last six or so months and it's slower, but I'm going to build with my own capital and select investor capital, but I'm going to own it. 100% myself. I'm not going to have to manage, you know, like there's obviously pluses of scale when you go the fund route but there's also, it's a business in itself and now you have a fund manager, now you have responding to the sec. There's just all this different factor and then you maybe you have a warehouse line and it's just all these different layers that like I don't necessarily want to get into if I don't have to. So for the foreseeable future I'm going to let the business dictate that for me. But I can make really high returns on personal capital and you know, capital from friends and family who see what I'm doing and want to, want to work together and build something together. But yeah, I'm just going to build my own lending company with my own capital and it allows me to stay extremely flexible. It makes my money a little more valuable in the sense of like hey, I don't have 100 million to lend out but I can lend out X amount and I can deliver, you know, I can provide great service. I'm going to be easy to work with. So that's kind of, that's kind of my plan. And that flywheel will is going to generate more opportunities for me to keep buying and you know my, my game is going to be buying whole off market deal opportunities, rehabbing on myself, taking line of credits out there and that continues to allow me to fund more and more deals and, and have a very strong portfolio of properties as well as a lending business that's growing, growing consistently. And you know my, my goal is to be in this 20, 30 years down the line line doing more or less the same thing. And it's like one of those, it's kind of like bootstrapping. So I guess I made the decision I'm going to bootstrap my business instead of raising outside capital and you know, in assets under management or like how many loans I fund in a year might be less. But I've taken a really good lesson. Our good friend Zach keeps. I've been able to see what he's accomplished and he's bootstrapped his business business compared to people who I know who've scaled and they, you know they'll flaunt that they have 50,000 units on assets under management.

Yeah.

And then yeah they own 1% of and then the amount they're working, the stress level, the. So you're talking about curating your life. Like I don't want to Necessarily have to answer to a bunch of people. And like, I don't want to build a business that's going to make me have to do that. So I'm going to build my business a different way. And. And like, I'm excited about it. I think that's the right, Right model for me. And I don't know, in a couple years, like, if things change, maybe I'll. It'll shift a little bit. But I. I don't think so, though.

So you. I love that you came to that realization, because I think we all struggle with it, and I definitely do, too, is like, what kind of life do you want to design? Because you could go in any direction and hear all these ideas of all these entrepreneurs, and you see their passion behind it, or you see their success in it, or you get something cool out of it. But then sometimes you put the ladder up the wrong wall and you start climbing it, and then you come, you get it, and then you're like, oh, this is the wrong wall. I didn't want to climb this ladder. Like, why did I veer so far away from the integrity of what I really want in my life? So I'm glad that you had that realization. And that's where I've been. You know, I impulsively. Red dress syndrome, paid $100,000, spent a year to. To just do the fund docs to start a fund. And not to mention like a year of all the licensing and the filings and the p. That stuff. Right. And then I was like, well, I kind of need to build the origination side of the business first. I can't go raise capital if I don't even have a track record, like, really on originations. And so. But, you know, that's probably one of the things that I could have slowed down a little bit on and maybe spent more time getting mentored by people who had done it and learning a little bit more about what it really entailed to have a fund. And I still have the fund, but the strategy has switched to, like, let's get the originations up as big as we can, get a good piece of the market share for our business. And then the fund is easy because.

Yeah, because then you've already had the track record.

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, with the fund, you do all the work, you have all the risk, and you pretty much give everything to your investors. Like, being an LP with a really good operator is a gift. It is such a gift. Because I know so many fund managers and the shit they deal with Every day is a lot. And they keep their tiny little piece. Now they do really well if they do. Or they're really loyal, honest people that have great reputations and great relationships. But I mean, it's definitely a scale game. Like you got to scale really big to make it worthwhile.

Yeah. And that's what I mean. At least at this point I want to avoid it because as you know, in the lending space specifically, like when you have to deploy, you start to make decisions that are not always the best. So once again, talking to different mentors and talking to people is, it's like their game is volume. So they have to do volume. It gets competitive to get all the deal flow. So you just start approving more and more stuff and that puts you in a bad spot. So for me personally, I'm risk averse. I never want my capital to outpace my deal flow because then to increase deal flow, you're lowering your standards. So I'm nervous of that and I don't want to be in that position. I rather have my capital, capital outpacing my deal flow a little bit. Or like, or, or no, my deal flow. Yeah, yeah, my deal flow outpacing my, my capital. And it's like, hey, I can only fund so much because of, because of this. And yeah, miss out on some upside, like gotta call a spade a spade. If I had the capital, some of those deals are good, I can fund more. But you know, I, I'm, I'm okay with that. That's the trade off that you have to decide. And for me, I, I feel like.

It'S the right choice and you can. All this is also what I learned later is like, you don't have to have a fund to do partners. You can just reach out to your small group of investors or whoever you have that have capital and are interested in lending. And they can be, they can, you could assign the note to them.

Exactly.

Fund the whole deal or half the deal with you. And you could kind of.

And that's it. And that takes a couple of documents.

Yeah, it's easy.

Yeah.

So the downside of that is it's more you have to have people have bigger checks to write. Right. Because they're like funding the whole deal or a big portion. They're not able to just put 50 grand in a fund.

Fun.

It's a pool.

So then you're looking at, you know, bigger investors that might want to do that for sure. But so it's, it's the trade off of the, of, of the business and and how you want to, want to structure it so that it's been exciting kind of seeing all the different options and then really kind of honing in on what makes sense. Sense for me. And I hope what people take in the lesson is like, there's no right or wrong way. It's a way, like coming back to curating your business and your life, how you want, want it and seeing that and like, oh, I could do it that way, I could do it this way and, and being humble enough to be like, oh, I feel like, like I can puff my chest and I feel like I can create a hundred million dollar fund in the next five years. 200 million. But that doesn't really fit what I actually want. So why, why go that route? So kind of saying, you know, it's not as sexy to be like, oh, I have a 10 million or $15 million, you know, business instead of a $200 million dollar. But you know, when you control it all and, and stuff, you know, I think it's worth it.

Yeah, it's, it's. What is the life you want to design? And so many of us are run by our egos because that's what we've always had. That's what keeps us to survive and innovate and all these things. But when it all comes down to it, nobody cares. It's your life. Like, what do you want your life to look like and to be able to say, oh, I have a billion dollar company or whatnot. Like, if you're just focusing on, focused on the ego of I want this amount of money or this amount of revenue or this amount of status or whatever, you miss everything. You miss the whole, the ripple effect. And the, the thing that really matters isn't the goal itself, it's the impact that is caused from the goal. And so I, Robert Kiyosaki is the one that told me that is like the goal is just a rock. And it's not the rock that matters when you drop it in the water, it's the ripples that come from the rock. Yeah. And so I always think about that as like, okay, cool, set a goal, have an amazing goal. But what is the purpose behind the goal? What is that goal going to create in my life and in the world that is worth me going after that goal? Because if it's just a vanity metric because it sounds cool or because someone else did it, you're missing the whole point. And you're going to be so detached from the journey because you're after this goal. But the goal doesn't even matter. It's. It's the ripple effect.

And so absolutely. Wow, that's. That's great. And it just reminds me, I was thinking of a story. I was speaking with a guy who created a really large company, went public, sold it, but he raised venture capital. And he was like, I don't regret it. I needed it because the business needed to grow with velocity. But the thing is, when you really run the numbers, if I would have bootstrapped my company and sold it for a third of what I sold it for, I would have made. Made more. And I think that was the conversation that really shifted my mind with what I'm doing. Like, it's like, oh, I can have a bigger. But if I have all of this other outside capital. So it's like the ripple effect, to your point of, like, what do I. Like what do I want that ripple effect to look like? What do I want it to be in my life? And it's like, all right, I'd rather have a smaller business, but it be. It'd be mine. So I think that's, like, I challenge everyone out there to think about that and curate your business. Like, some people, people, I just don't have that level of like, I need to hit a billion dollars. But some people have that mindset of like, I want a billion dollar company, or you said, wants to change the whole world. I want to change the world of which I can impact around me. Like, I want to improve the lives of people in Arizona, of people who I can have in touch with. Like, I'm really deep rooted in that. Like, can I impact people who look and sound like me? Being an African American man, a former pro I athlete, can I make people of color? See what you can build in industries? Like we, you and I connected last year at aapl. And one thing I found interesting is there was hardly no people of color there. And this is. I've been in real estate a long time, but I've never been on the lending side. And knowing what I know now, how profitable that business is and lending in different, you know, we're at the torax of the world and all these huge, huge, huge companies in the space, and there's so much money in it, I just didn't see many people of color there at all. And so I sticked out, stood out like a sore thumb. And I'm fine with that. But it's just like, I want to introduce, you know, different business models to a demographic that I can. That I can reach and Teach and, you know, start in my own backyard and. But also with athletes and people who look up to people like me. So I think that's the Republican triple effect that I hope to have in. In my world and in the world in the sphere that I can reach and being okay with it might not impact the entire world.

Well, and so many people, like, I want to change the world, but it starts with one person.

Yeah.

You know, and if you're so busy on this massive goal and you can't even. And you're not disconnect, not even connected enough to be able to change one life like your own, change yourself first. Right. Because that's the first thing is you have to show up your best and always be growing, growing and, and becoming, living up to your highest potential in order for you to be able to make the greatest impact on others. And whether that's one life or a thousand lives or a million lives or a billion lives, it all starts with one person at a time. Yeah, absolutely. So I, I know we have to, we have to go. I just want to keep talking to you, but what are you worried at all about the current real estate market environment, like, has that changed how you're underwriting loans? Because I know we're in a pretty volatile weird. Everybody's a little bit uncomfortable in the markets with the tariffs and rates are high and costs are high. And what are your thoughts there as you underwrite deals?

I mean, I'm definitely. It's something I'm looking at and watching, but a big thing for me is you need to be buying. Right. And it like, do you have enough capital to sustain? So I'm look like, you know, I'm asking my borrowers to show me bank statements. That's something I always did. But it's like, bro, you got to be up to withstand longer hold times. It might take longer to get a job done. Can you handle if the re. The rehab costs more than you expected? Because maybe costs go up, what have you. So there just needs to be breathing room in the deals, which ultimately means you need to find better deals, you know, at the end of the day. So that's something I'm looking at. And, you know, I won't consider anything if they're not at least factoring in six months. I don't care if they have contractors on. On their team that can handle it in house. I have some borrowers that are doing, you know, pretty significant rehabs in a month or less. That's great. I'm still underwriting at least at six months, because there's a realistic chance it takes three, four or five months to sell right now. So, you know, that's, that's just my mentality. And on the bigger projects, it's like, I'm, I'm underwriting at a year I'd rather be. Maybe it'll only take three months to do it and then. But I'm like, I'd rather be on the safe side of that. Do you have the capital? Can you withhold it? And does the deal make sense still at 6 months if it's an easy bread and butter project, or at 12 months if it is a larger project? So those are the things that I'm looking at and seeing. And then I'm forward thinking on if, if I had to take over a property, you know, I want to make sure it's a good deal, you know, make sure that I'm not giving out the rehab budgets if the work's not done. Done to where? All right, I have the rehab to handle it. I can take over this property, finish it, you know, so those are, that's how I'm, I'm looking at it. And I feel like it's going to be great opportunities if people can take advantage. So what's great about the lending space is I feel like I'm, I'll be able to pivot no matter what, whether it's a good market, bad market. People need money to fund projects, and I don't think that's going anywhere anytime soon. And when you're the bank, then, you know, worst case, nobody in Arizona's flipping. Can I lend to other businesses? Can I? Like, you know, there's, there's other ways I can pivot. So I think being, being the bank is a powerful position to put yourself in.

It's the best. There's no better position. I, in my opinion. I mean, the whole world is run on banking.

Yeah.

So what, what keeps you going and what keeps you up at night?

What keeps me going? Legacy, I would say, is keeps me going. And for my kids, I have two daughters and, and I'm constantly thinking about how I can put them in the best position to be successful. I want them to feel like they have the resources to do whatever they want, but not enough to do whatever they want, if that makes sense. Go and chase whatever you want, but you gotta go be ambitious. So how to build and curate a life for them that they understand. And I want them to see the world a little differently. So my kids have traveled a lot already, and that's something that my wife and I like to do with them. And yeah, I would say legacy wise, they are my legacy. And how can I pour in them the right way? And what keeps me up at night? I guess I would almost say the same thing. Like some of the things in the world scare me and you know, I just think about where the world's at and like, how to protect my little girls and you know, prepare them for what the, for what is the world and where. And where the world is and what it's becoming and all of that. So I would say that's. I guess it's both. It's my legacy and, and what, what keeps me. What keeps me up. So.

Yeah, that's cool. How old are they?

Six and three.

Oh, gosh, how cute. Do you want more kids?

I think we're done. Girl dad for life. I love, I love it. Man to man coverage. I think a third, you know, a big talking about curating our lives. And a big thing for my wife and I is we want to be able to start to travel more and stuff. And our youngest turning four next month, we're getting to that point where that's, that's easier the idea of starting over and you know, I don't care what position you're in financially, having kids, it like puts a hamper on mobility.

Right.

No matter what. And, you know, I think we're entering a phase where we want to grow our businesses. My wife's an agent here locally to my businesses and we want to go see the world and experience. You know, I was playing for nine years. I didn't travel a ton. Like I would go on beachy vacations. Hawaii, Hawaii, Miami, Costa Rica, you know, things like that, where it was easy to get to. But you know, last year we went to Europe and you know, we want to take extended trips places and stay for a month and do things like that. And yeah, so I don't think more kids are in the fact that we're going to mob out what our family are for.

Yeah. Well, cool. I'll close with this. If you could go back to little Devon Kennard and give advice to your younger self, what would you tell? Tell him.

Don'T be afraid to continue to do it your way.

Thank you for coming on the show.

Thanks for having me.