Top Secrets From the World's #1 CRE Broker | Simon Jonna

Tom Brady once said, I didn't come this far to only get this far. I take losses every day. I failed over and over and over again in my life. This is why I succeed. If I don't lose, I can't win.

Every single person that is like the best in whatever it is they put their mind to has this incredible ability to handle pain. I see pain as a privilege, and I actually lean into it because I believe that all the answers we're looking for lie within our pain.

I remember I had somebody tell me, he said, if you leave this firm, he says, you will never survive this town. You cannot go to another house and expect to succeed. You're from nowhere and nobody cares about you. And he threatened me, Just leave. Commercial real estate.

Where do you see the biggest opportunity in commercial real estate over the next decade?

You remember how essentials played out during COVID Yeah, the guys with like, grocery stores and liquor stores and gas stations, right? Medical essentials, you name it. Those types of deals, they're not going anywhere. If you're really forward thinking, then you'll say to yourself, AI is going to.

Welcome back to the Hannah Hammond Show. I'm sitting here with Simon, Jonah, and we actually, Jeffrey and I came out here to Birmingham, Michigan, where Jonah lives. I mean, you're from Michigan as well, right?

No, born and raised in San Diego.

Oh, San Diego. Okay, perfect. Well, you now live in. In Michigan. And he is an absolute beast in commercial real estate. He's been ranked as the number one real estate broker in the entire world. The global award. Yep. Global Broker of the year award. What was that?

Fortunately.

Fortunately. Well, and it doesn't come easy. So I'm excited to dive into your story today and learn how you've done it. I know you've represented a lot of clients that have done financing, you know, worked with Jeffrey, my partner at HP Capital. And we're just super excited to hear your story and learn what you've accomplished. And something really that stood out to me with you as well is you haven't fallen into the just doing one asset class like a lot of the bigger commercial firms make you do. And you have been able to become an expert in so many different asset classes and are now working with international clients and just have a massive network and have been able to do some really tough deals. And you're known for getting hard deals done across the finish line. And then you also released your book, Diary of a Deal Maker, which we'll dive into some of the lessons that you taught through that book. But yeah. Simon, thanks for being on the show.

Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming out, by the way.

Of course, coming from Arizona.

Arizona, Yep.

Scottsdale, Arizona. And I'm actually super shocked at how much I love Birmingham. I didn't know it existed.

It's pretty much to the naked eye, you'd be surprised. It's one of America's best small downtowns. And I don't say that out of bias. I was born and raised in San Diego, which if you go to the Gas Lamp, it's America's finest city on a big banner when you pull in.

Yeah.

So, you know, for what it's worth, I've been a defender of the Detroit sort of landscape for a long time. Having been born and raised in California and having migrated here and just looking at it, like I said, from a certain vantage point, a certain perspective, the reality is there's very deep pockets in Michigan and there's a lot of cash trading hands in the form of deal making.

Yeah.

And I think at, at one point Oakland county was the third richest county in the country. I'd say trailing 10 years. Ish. Right.

That's wild.

Yeah. And, and, and so I come here and I say to myself, man, I'm coming from the super highways, the picturesque scenic San Diego, the quality of life is unsurpassed, unequivocated. And before you know it, I'm here and it's like a beautiful Midwest heartland with this like lakes region and Oakland county and then Birmingham, like I said, I'll give you a small testament to what I mean by Birmingham in terms of the greater perspective and not necessarily my bias. Birmingham is housing a restoration hardware flag, a net lease, restoration. If you look at these deals, and I want to be accurate, but if you look at Boston, if you look at San Francisco, these are 50 plus million dollar net lease assets that trade accordingly and they're built, ground up and they're hyper curated. It's restoration, it's a furniture store and they're housing themselves in Birmingham. Of all major metros, gateways, the primaries essentially is not necessarily even a secondary. It's a small downtown, it's a greater Bloomfield Hills. If you know Bloomfield Hills.

I don't.

Yeah. And so restoration is going there. So you know, not to, you know, exacerbate this, but that's a testament to the strength of affluence and marketability as it relates to Birmingham. Dirt.

Yeah, It's a great place. I think this is actually my first time in Michigan in general.

So I'll do I sound A little too pro Birmingham, by the way.

No, not at all. I love it. I'm all for it. I was posting it on my story last night. It's a cool thing.

You're staying at the Daxton? Yeah, yeah. So they just rebranded that to a curio by Hilton. So that's going to go a long way, especially for those who are seeking the Hilton discount.

So, yeah, it's a cool hotel.

See how that goes. I love all the art, 200 plus rooms, 300, 400, 500 to 70 employee rates. But that's, that should, that, that, that I, I, I do think it needed a rebrand in all seriousness, because the independence, the boutiques, they need that pop sometimes as much as, as much as, as much as the thoughtful design and layout and mystique goes into the motif of the design. It's great and it's urban and it's eclectic and it's live work and play and there's walkability, but sometimes it could be missing its soul and a brand in terms of relativity, that Hilton, that myriad can come in and play that part.

Yeah, yeah, I know that, that. And you've done hospitality deals quite a bit.

Yeah.

So going back to the very beginning, I'm always fascinated to understand why and how people became who they became. And you've obviously become the best in your field of what you're doing and have made massive waves in the industry. And so what was, what did your early days look like and what specific event led you to getting into commercial real estate brokerage?

Early on, I started in San Diego and I wanted to make a name for myself in sales. And I said to myself I had a good amount of raw talent, so to speak, in terms of delivery, in terms of communication skills, in terms of interacting with others. So I decided to test the water in sales. And granted, just like the big firms will tell you when I sit down and I interview, it's going to take you time to make money in this business. And this could be all considerations, a rich boy's business because you're not on salary and there's no income stream in essence, until you prove yourself, until you build your book, until clients strike a chord with you. So that wasn't necessarily the case early on, but I was very much bullish in my approach and that, that helped me because I was bullish in a sense, and blinded. I didn't know where the light at the end of the tunnel was. And I, my, my sales career, you know, encompassed the satellite sales early on, maybe with DirecTV and evolved in that sense to stock brokerage. I started at a, started at a firm which was ultimately raided by the San Diego Sheriff's Department. It was a boiler room, the Wolf.

Of Wall street style.

Yeah, yeah. Which was awesome. That helped me, that helped me to witness it. To literally get asked to leave by a good friend. We ended up at a sort of polar opposite setting with like a very conservative, I think it was Curlin securities in La Jolla. This old man, dinosaur ish, kind of, you know, coffee in hand. Hey, how you doing? As opposed to Hampton Porter preceding that, where we were on wires, we were, we were at community tables sharing wires on, on, on phones. And we were expected to do three to 400 dials a day. So literally the essence of a boiler room, which I've seen countless times. And so that experience transcended sort of my thought process, like, hey, that's out there. And that form of up tempo salesmanship is real. It's not just, you know, one categorically mainstay in terms of like a big blue chip corporate firm. So that helped me in terms of my experience. It was very experiential.

And were you like just a natural born entrepreneur, do you think, or were your, did your parents influence your entrepreneurial tendencies?

Certainly my dad instilled quite a bit in terms of, I'd say, not necessarily entrepreneurship from the onset, but, you know, he was very much integrity first. And so at first, you know, you're open ears, you're like, you're like the sounding board to your dad. Because I'm his firstborn son, I'm growing up with him and he raised me in a pretty unique way. And I look back and it was a blessing in disguise.

But what do you mean unique? Like how so?

That's a good question. Yeah. So the unique aspect of my upbringing, I'll give you an example. I have three other siblings. They'd all tie their shoes, go hang out with their cousins, hang out with their friends. My mom was very pro family on her side and she wanted us around our cousins. My dad sort of honed in on me and he said, hey, before you leave, Simon staying with me, My mom would say, what do you mean his cousins are waiting on him, they're going to the pool. He'd say, no, no, no, he's staying with me for, for whatever reason. So I'd sit with him and he'd sit there and talk to me about who the anchor was. Ted Koppel. I still remember to this day this guy's generational 20, 30 years back. Sam Donaldson, ABC. Barbara Walters, who, you know, 2020. Right. And I was sort of abstracting, assimilating, acclimating myself to the world of current affairs by way of my dad essentially forcing the issue, you know, having this sit down with them. And over time, I started to ask questions and I started to say to him, why is it. Why is there reverse logic here with the way, for instance, this nation's reacting to the other? Or why is it. Why. Why does it seem as if America has, like, this dual track agenda? Isn't that a double standard, dad? And so the psychology, in essence, some of it of which was philosophy, the ideology, the politics that play on play year over year, you know, spoke to that unique factor that you ask about.

Yeah. And what. What did he do? What did your parents do?

My father's a professor, so he taught at University of Maryland. I think he had a stint at Notre Dame, had his thesis at San Diego State. So he's very learned. He's an academic. He's big on his scholarly studies. He has upwards of 3,000 books in his home library. Yeah, yeah. So I grew up around that.

And then your mom raised the kids?

Yeah, my mom was a housewife. She's phenomenal. She played a huge part in my upbringing in a sense that, you know, I wouldn't have the Persona I do, so to speak, with relativity, with my sense of humor and so on and so forth if it wasn't for my mom, because she was that side of it. My dad was like the more serious, in depth, lovable, huggable, tender, sort of professorial type.

Yeah. Would you say you had a good, healthy, close relationship with your parents?

Very. Yeah. Yeah, very. I think my dad, I had misunderstood early on, and he was nothing nice, to be honest. I mean, he was pretty damn straightforward. And, you know, if he had to, he'd. He'd spank me. Not in the nicest of ways. And, you know, that wasn't necessarily abuse in my eyes. That was more so his way of, like, habitat, you know. And that's just what I grew up with. And looking back, I said to myself, man, you know, as. As. As hard as he was on me, you know, tough love is real. There's. There's nobody that loves me more than this human being.

Yeah.

You know, and because I'm looking back on it, I mean, my life could have taken any. Which route. And for what it's worth, I think I was stabilized. I was grounded for the right reasons.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And did your.

Did I feel suppressed at times? Yes.

I did, yeah.

Yeah.

Did you? It sounds like your dad really paid a lot of attention to you. Yeah. How would that look like growing up? Was there like any resistance or resentment from your siblings thinking that you got more attention?

No, I think he loved us equally and I think he, he, he paid a good amount of attention to all of us. I just think, you know, the way, you know, so he's like first generation immigrant. Right. And the way they looked at the first son from a traditional standpoint, he just sort of wanted to, wanted me to shadow him. In essence, he wanted to mentor me and he wanted me to echo not his sentiment. He wasn't trying to force a narrative, but he was, he was, he, he, he, he wanted me to chart a course for myself and he wanted to give me that guidance.

That's so cool. Yeah, you had that, that support.

Yeah. I mean, it's a, like I said, looking back, I was bitching, the moaning all the time. So for instance, like he was, he's this adventurer, he likes, like, you know, territorial adventures. We drove 45 states by car and in like this sedan and he had four of us in the back and my mom and we were always bitching and moaning. But guess what? We were passing through Wyoming's hot springs, Niagara Falls, Kennedy Space center in Florida, Grand Canyon in Arizona. And looking back, it's like, man, I do real estate now. And like, I have like this intuition towards landscape in a big way as it relates to child memories. So at the end of the day, you can look at setbacks in the form of strategy. Back then I was a child and I didn't get to enjoy my childhood the way I wanted to by essentially loitering and having a good old time with buddies. But as of today, strategical employment plays a part due to what I perceived as a setback at that point in time.

What were some of the biggest failures that you've experienced in your career or in your personal life?

The element of perfectionism in terms of your pursuit. Tom Brady once said, I didn't come this far to only get this far. So I take losses every day. I mean, I'm jogging memory. But if I'm to take a loss, um, what, what did Michael Jordan say, by the way? I failed over and over and over again in my life. This is why I succeed.

Yep, Right, right.

So he said, and this is somebody who's in my book, by the way, who I'm a huge fan of. And for multi dimensional reasons, it gets pretty deep because of his, his, his bullish approach to life in general. But Jordan once said I have to respect losing because losing comes with winning. If I don't lose, I can't win. So if you're not bracing yourself for rejection, if you're not that type, you're not built for our business.

Yeah.

You're not. You have to be able to lose. And guess what? Losing is opportunistic. Losing is doing damage control. Losing is making sense of an open window that maybe you didn't see early on. Right.

Yeah. You know, as I, you know, talk to amazing entrepreneurs and individuals in general, I have learned that every single person that is like the best in whatever it is they put their mind to has this incredible ability to handle pain and suffering. And it's, you know, like, I see pain as a privilege and I actually lean into it because I believe that all the answers we're looking for lie within our pain. And if we don't resist it and we actually embrace it, then we use that to help us grow.

That was pretty awesome. Speaking of quotes, that was very finite phraseology. Seriously.

Thank you.

It lies within the pain. What, what did Bill Gates once say? He said success is a lousy teacher. Right. Because smart people think there's something to the extent of that quote, they have it all figured out. That's what success can end up doing to you. Yeah. So if you don't, if you're not looking at it through the lens in multidimensional fashion, I just, I just took on success. How do I handle it? So what's, what's the other. Not to sound like a walking, talking quote book, but what's the idea of getting to the top? Or really that's not the end goal, it's how to stay there.

Right.

Why are there, why is there financial advisory in this world? Because it's preservation of wealth. Right. And it's permeating that pattern in terms of wealth generation.

Yeah.

It's not just, hey, I got to the top of new money. Let's. Let's see what comes of it never ends.

Right. Well. And there is no top. So when you, because the goalpost is.

Always, when you speak to pain that you speak to perspective.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's really what it comes down to is their is no real top. Right. Because we're always evolving. We're always having new breakthroughs. Like what was it the guy that they said it was impossible to break a five minute mile or something like that, and then somebody broke it. And then as soon as that one person broke it, a bunch of people started breaking it because the real limiting factor is our own mindset and our own self sabotaging thoughts and actions.

No question. Yes, well put again. So for what it's worth, somebody's going to break the mold. Sometimes. I hate to see it because speaking of Michael Jordan, my childhood hero, there's others that come along that tend to create a kink in his armor in the form of breaking his records. I'm a big UFC fan. I don't want my guy, my goat to ever assuming he has a flawless record. This is Jon Jones. If you watch the ufc, I don't want him to come back from retirement. I don't want the guy to lose. Because before you know it, time or technology or all of the above gets the best of you.

What was a big failure? I know we kind of got sidetracked there, but what was one of your big failures that was, I mean, at any point, what did you learn from it?

I was not happy with the fact that I amassed a ton of success. And when I say a lot of success, I, you know, I've, I, I, I, I'm fortunate to be able to say this, I don't say this in a pompous way whatsoever, but I amass success at a very young age that I didn't think existed. 22, 23 years old, I had tax burdens that I didn't think existed either. And that played a part too. Yeah, yeah. And I went through the motions. I didn't realize I got a call from my accountant saying you owe $390,000 in taxes. And I'm like, what? Well, why do I owe that? You know, and this is randomly while I'm out at the bar. And I had to, course, correct. I had to, I, I, I, I had to commission an IRS attorney who was a friend, and he put me on a payment plan with the irs. And this is as I'm, you know, enterprising all over the country and making big bucks. This was like 23, 24 years old.

And so stockbroker. Were you in commercial real estate?

This is when I was in commercial real estate. Okay, right. And, and so, so, so, so little do you realize that. What, what was the gist, the premise of our question?

What was your, one of your biggest failures?

Yeah. So looking back, I, I, I, I amassed all this success and what was the one thing I didn't have, Oddly enough, ironically, because my dad was a professor, a college degree. I'm like, I, I don't have a four year. And, and I'm sitting here and I'm wining and dining at these hotspots. And these guys are from Harvard and so. And so is from Stanford out in California. And they think I'm from some big house is what, what they used to call it, the Ivy League, you know, that, that, that, that pedigree.

These are your clients that are from.

Clients and colleagues and counterparts, whoever it is. Yeah, clients for the most part. But they always thought to themselves, man, Simon and has quite a bit of depth and it's like unforeseen and it's unbeknownst and he's fairly unassuming. And little did they know I wasn't a graduate. So did I look back on that as I amassed even more success and I really established stepping stones and building blocks to success on top of success. Yeah. I always say to myself, I don't have this four year and it's under everybody's belt. And you know, there's like this pride of ownership to a degree.

Yeah.

So I guess looking back, maybe that was a form of failure. But guess what? I've graduated as of late.

Oh, congratulations.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. U of M University of Michigan.

That's awesome.

Graduate. Yep, yep. So. So I had to get it done. I'm too competitive not to be able to fill the gaps.

Yeah. It's so interesting to like, reflect on ourselves and think of those little things that gnaw at you, like the regrets that we have or.

Yeah.

Questioning the paths we could have or should have taken. And that's interesting that it stuck with you that much like me. I would be like, who the fuck cares? Excuse my language.

But you know what's funny? You know what we're hearing these days like AI is taking over and a degree is a degree is lamentable with consideration to say, I, I, I, I hate to like, you know, subject lawyers to this, but a lot of the paper pushing, a lot of the fees, a lot of the PSA reviews, is that going to be sidelined because of AI? It could very well be. Now, lawyers in general, I don't think they're going to go away. They said brokers were going to go away with the dawn of the Internet and guess what? More subsets of industries opened for that reason. So the top brokers, they're not necessarily going to go anywhere. Now brokerage in general, it's gonna manifest itself, it's gonna evolve. Just like retail did, for instance, when we had this recession resistance. And then along came the E commerce juggernaut, online resistance. And then what do you know, 2020 hits, Covid resistance. Guess what happened with retail. Yes, there were store closures, yes, there were consolidations. Yes, there were headlines and the hype and the Armageddon. But before you knew it, it consolidated, it got smarter, it got better. As of last year, they're the second most rebounding sector.

Yeah.

Following industrial.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

It's so cool. Yeah. And I think that's the thing is like everything just shifts and evolves is just back to the industrial revolution when all the farmers lost their jobs. Well, it created all these new jobs.

Historical backdrop.

Yeah. And so I think the same thing with AI. Yes, it's going to take away a lot of the, you know, paper pushing, white collar type jobs, but it's really just going to be used as a tool to elevate. In my opinion. You used as a tool to elevate what you're already doing and the problems that you're already solving. Like we use AI daily in our business.

Yeah. And holistically you would think that it's uber advantageous to have AI in place. I'm not a big fan. I happen to be a writer by nature. I'd like to be able to say, without again sounding bravado in any way, that I'm as good as it gets in the form of writing. And when I, when I, when I put together an AI just for like fluff factor and I, and, and I want to be able to submit it, I just can't. It's too vanilla right now. It's, it's not there. There's, there's no, there's, there's no sequence there. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's generic. So the way I have to be able to do it is I'm fine tuning my AI delivery if I'm using it. For what it's worth, I'd rather start from scratch because of all that I have to be able to do to retrofit my AI blurbs.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's.

If you're a writer, granted, if you're not necessarily a writer and your social subset in terms of speakability and writing and all that good stuff is not your forte. Yeah, AI is great. Right. But I just, I like AI for reasons being that it's sort of past due.

Yeah.

It's nice. It's really coming to the fold because I think it's going to be beneficial if you are cautiously optimistic about it.

I agree. And I think Just in the world that we live in. And it doesn't surprise me that retail is doing so well right now in this environment. But in the world we live in, especially now with AI, the human touch is going to be so important over all else because people, at the end of the day, like people want to connect with people. All we really have is connection and each other and the world would be. I mean, I don't see what the point of life would be if we were all just living in a room with AI goggles in this virtual world and didn't have anybody in our lives. Like, what would be the point of existence? And so I think everybody will always, no matter what technological advances there are in real estate or in any other area, people will always come back to the human connection. People will always want to gather and meet in places and, and businesses are always gonna have to operate. So commercial real estate, in my opinion, and even on the brokerage level, is never going to go anywhere, no question.

So the human touch, you're reverberating now. You're retrogressing back to what matters. You're a financier, correct?

Yeah.

Tell us a little bit about HP Capital, by the way. Yeah, yeah. If you don't mind, I had a point, but I want you to be able to, you know, give us a little bit of a plug here.

Yeah. So I came from 11 years in the commercial real estate brokerage side of things. Yeah, but never to your level. Never was at a big firm, never represented big clients. I was the one stop shop for the 1 to 10 million dollar purchase, sale, lease, residential, commercial, just kind of for the doctor client that had a medical office that wanted to sell his house in, in Arizona, that's bread and butter. Yeah, it was great because I kept finding everybody was coming to me because the bigger firms weren't serving them in the way they wanted to be served for their needs and because they were just smaller commercial deals. And so I was able to come.

There's a market for that.

Yeah, yeah. So that's what I did. And then about. I started buying up real estate at 18, got my license at 18. And then about four and a half years ago, I started private lending because I had been saving money to buy. I wanted to buy a multifamily project. But this was right when Covid happened, that era, and it was all cash offers, cap rates were super low. I have an engineering degree and I was like, these numbers don't make sense. I don't know much, but these numbers don't work. For me. And so that's when I started private lending. And then I launched a debt fund and then decided I wanted to. To do a commercial real estate debt fund, but I needed to build the brokerage first. And then that's what led to HP Capital, which is now a national debt and equity capital advisory firm, and partnered up with Jeffrey, who is connect. We were connected through a mutual friend of ours. And we just compliment each other so well. We're such a good team. And I know you've worked with them for a long time quite a bit.

Yeah. Jeff saw. Jeff's a stud and he's a practitioner and he knows his, his product.

Yeah.

And that plays a part. So speaking of which. And that was like, I guess the thought beforehand before I asked you to hit us with that. And by the way, American dream personified over here. With that said, I don't want to extend outreach to AI when it comes to, you name it, Title, review, financials, lease details. I need intuition. I need to run it by Hannah. And Hannah needs to say to herself, let's assemble a think tank here. In terms of the right opinion, that is a framework within the right team to be able to get to the finish line. I can only do so much in that regard. Right. And I get this because I feel like I can outwit AI until it ultimately outwits us. And maybe that's like a measure of confidence on my part, but results speak for themselves. And again, not to sound a certain way, but no question in my mind, I don't think I can do what I need it to do in terms of my standards as of present day.

Yeah, I agree. And it'll continue to evolve and we'll see. But I'm optimistic and excited about it.

Yeah, so am I. I know some people are saying to themselves, we're gonna have robots running around like T2 Judgment Day, and these AI guys are gonna be chasing us down. But I, I, if anything, I. You, you shouldn't be a prisoner of hope.

Right.

You know, what comes of it, what becomes of it is what it is. And I think we're gonna. There's, there's people like us. We're gonna make the most of it. And we might be the luckiest generation there is because of AI. So again, I love to inject a little bit of optimism.

Yeah. So take us back to your first deal. Like, you decided to become a commercial real estate broker. Where'd you start? What was, what did your first deal look like? Walk us through that.

So I migrated from San Diego to Michigan. And don't ask why, because I've been asked it my entire career. Why would you go from San Diego to Detroit? But it was a story to be told, so it's part of my repertoire. And for what it's worth, it played a part to be able to say, yeah, I am from San Diego and guess what? I'm pushing product in Detroit now. And for what it's worth, there's reasons why I deal as much as I deal in New York, more than most of the New Yorkers who aren't the biggest fan of me and Miami and these gateway metropolitans, because I have an eye for, for what happens to be the best of the best. And guess what? Come pay me a visit. Come touchdown, you're here. You know, Detroit is not what you think. And it was very much, I will say, resuscitating itself. Pre Covid. Detroit had a renaissance going on. Yeah, if I tell you, and I can't disclose too much details as it relates to my business on air or otherwise, but I had some very, very, very mega personalities. These guys, they own farms in LA that produce avocado. They own rights to electricity overseas in one of the most lit cities in the nation. They own a nameplate to a gym. They happen to be the largest landlord and nobody knows. And you know the gym and I know the gym. They own towers all throughout the, the biggest metro there is within our national footprint. I think you know where that is. And they own the air rights to those towers and they own upwards of a hundred towers. They're a dynasty. And guess what? They had a little bit of intrigue. They broached me, you know, here in Michigan. They said to themselves what a lot of people are saying to themselves. And which is why I'm, you know, fortunately successful in my craft. Because I'm dealing, this is just like in third person. I'm dealing with 3 and 4 caps. I'm dealing with appreciation based dirt. I'm dealing with a disposition because I want to go from passive. I, I want to go from active to passive management. This multi family. I have a massive umpire. I own 6, 700 units. I own 6, 7,000 units. I own 60 to 70,000 units. Fortunately, we're in that playing field when we deal with our constituency and that 60 to 70,000 units, guess what? You have to be able to carve out a chunk of that portfolio because it's a, it's, it's, it's, it's a mandate as it relates to your estate. You need passive Management, you need mailbox paychecks. Sometimes you can't just go with the go. Especially if you're dealing with the stepped up basis. Especially if you're by and large fully depreciated. So what is the biggest trend the nation knows, right? Commoditizing deals. Net lease. So the great arbitrage you asked me, Simon, why do you specialize in net lease and multifamily? It's bi directional, they complement each other. Don't tell me what I specialize in. I'm a specialist when it comes to dirt. Okay, not just net lease versus multifamily, but because of that bidirectional continuum, that multifamily seller trading out of a 3 and 4 cap. Guess what they're targeting at the end of the day if they need commoditized net lease, especially prototypical homogeneous net lease, it's no different if you pick it up and you put it in. Miami versus suburban Detroit.

Yeah.

They're looking for yield. Right or wrong? You tell me.

Yeah.

Okay, so where's the highest yield territory? Foreseeably? Theoretically one of, I should say in the country, the Midwest. Would. Would you surmise? Would you?

I agree.

Would you concur?

Yeah.

Okay. So the highest yield territory, the lowest hanging fruit happens to be Midwest based. So they happen. I happen to be getting all the attention from all the best buyers. But you're talking, you're denigrating Detroit. You're saying Detroit is downtrodden and Detroit is desolate. What the hell's in Detroit? Guess what? If you're not being wrecked by somebody who's running with you on your 1031, you're calling me. And you just might be sidestepping that guy. And you're calling me nonetheless because nobody knows this dirt better than I do. Point blank. You're calling me for those reasons. The Midwest is my backyard and the Midwest is spotlighted for those reasons.

Well, and then you've done deals in all 50 states though, right? Or more than 30 states?

Upwards of all 50. I don't think. We've underwritten a bunch of stuff in Alaska, but I don't think we necessarily closed. I know you might think I haven't closed in Hawaii, but I have.

And.

A pretty gargantuan size deal. A multiplex of office product mid rises all across the board. It's like I shouldn't even be saying that because if you look at a bird's eye it's pretty obvious. But yeah, I traded in Hawaii and I'd say upwards of 50 states. Now wow. So I gotta, gotta find a way to get back to, to Alaska somehow.

Yeah, I'm sure you'll find a way.

I will.

But. But what, what did your first deal look like? How did you get your first deal? Because I know. In commercial real estate. Because I started in commercial real estate. It's not easy to get business. So like, how did you break into the industry and build your business? What was your first.

It's not an easy business, it's not a glorious business. And they throw you to the wolves no matter what they say. You know, sink or swim at the end of the day.

Yeah.

And which is why I join a group. I try to, I, I'm not gonna coddle you, but I try to get you to shadow me. I try to get you to go through what I didn't have the opportunity to capitalize on. I didn't have that mentorship. It was more like everybody was out for themselves. And it was a good thing because I come from like a war, the war zone days of brokerage and nobody was, as, you know, cuddly. But these days, if you come in, you've got high accountability, that's expected, high expectations. We have the ultimate standards because we have the ultimate clients and the ultimate deals. So it's nothing nice. You know, we're going to spill critique juice all over you. And don't think we're going to kiss and hug you. We're not. But at the end of the day, we've got your back. You know, there's an element of loyalty there. It's close knit. It's like family, you know, and it's so in essence bound by confidentiality. A lot of our dealings, we, we have a lot of chatter, like, join a group. The billboards are everywhere. Simon's headshot, this and that. They're, they're, they're the gossip train, the rumor mills. They're gonna say we're involved in this deal and we might be. And they're gonna say they're not just involved, they're packaging this deal, they're syndicating this deal, they're doing the construction or they're facilitating the ground game for the construction on this deal. We just might be, for what it's worth. But because you're in our office, guess what? We don't, we don't appreciate leaks. We keep it as tight knit as we possibly can as, as if it matters to us the most. But really we're acting a representative capacity of our clients and their dealings, and that's what matters. Most we're serving their interests. So very confidential, no matter what you hear from the outside looking in, was my point. And very close knit, very family oriented. And back to your question, if I can touch on the rest of this, what was it?

What? How'd you get your first deal?

Yeah, so back to my first deal.

So the weave, The Trump weave.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Apologies if I sound like a rigmarole.

No, you're good.

First deal was very cookie cutter in terms of a net lease deal, credit, all that good stuff. Multiple offers, Fluid Climate 2006, 2007. Ish. I did that deal. Right. But guess what? That was really what emblematized my whole career. That wasn't that lease deal, it was a Panera Bread.

By the way, were you representing.

We became one of the most prolific Panera bread traders, along with Starbucks and. Along with CVS and Wagman's and Rite Aids and, and, and, and numerous nameplates and tenants. But we were doing Panera Breads prolifically. That was my first deal. And, and my point is it spoke to. It emblematized nationally. What we masked enterprise. The story was told. Net lease. Yeah, that was my first deal.

What. Who'd you represent and how did you get the client?

Client was a private capital client developer by trade. He's really, he's really evolved since he's doing public private partnerships. He's killing it is getting into data centers, which is very, very hot to trot right now. Speaking of AI, don't give away too much, Hannah. You might have to cut this clip out. But he's formidable and I'm very, very proud of him. But I did my first deal with him. He gave me a Kmart box that was operational at the time, but they were withering and on their way out, so I don't think that deal ever traded. And there you go, success, loss. You listed it or what became of that.

Yeah.

Right.

And how'd you meet him?

Cold call.

Okay.

Called him. I had a database and really, you know, that speaks to. As of today, we're very proud and we don't speak of this much and we don't necessarily need to because, you know, it's conflicting and we don't like giving away too much of our secret sauce, but systems and processes and organizational infrastructure, database, all of that in place, I. I take that very seriously to a te. I hyper evolve it. And I'm set to incorporate AI in it too, by the way. But I had a little bit of a database back then. I was early on young guy. And I, I cold called him and I said, you know what, I, I had a good way of asking how you know, if they wanted to sell, like hey, would you sell it? That just sounded too cliche for me. And I had a really good backdrop with like stock brokerage and all this fancy cold calling. So I said, so I call him and this is not like verbatim, but I call on a net lease guy and say, you own the, the Panera Bread at, at such and such Street, ABC Street. What are your thoughts? Or let me ask you this, have you contemplated at all as of late, considering the climate, selling? And then I dead silence. And then if I can get a little bit of engagement, a little bit of conversation instead of go f yourself, then that was my window of opportunity. I got him on the phone, he's talking to me and this is a cold call. I'm coming out of nowhere, right?

Yeah. So that's so cool.

That was my first deal.

Yeah, I just never liked cold calling. But I did. You know, I built my businesses from an in person approach because that's what I love.

But I mean I, I, I love it too. And as you can see, I mean we're both very, we're like, you know, very social, so socialite types and I, I can appreciate where you're coming from. But that generation was like all about the phones and that was like sort of, you know, my habitat at the time. Yeah, that was my upbringing. The phones, the phones, the phones. But I, I, I, I did realize ultimately in my sector, investment real estate, which I think is the most sophisticated form of brokering because of our product. It's almost like, I like to say this sometimes, it's almost like stock brokering real estate, because I'm still a desk jockey and I'm on the phones, I'm not, you know, holding hands. I'm not showing you the space. I'm not a leasing agent, I'm, I'm an investment sales broker. So a lot of it has to do with yields and formulas. And for what it's worth, I mean look, it's multi pronged estate planning, your next move, your tax arbitrage, all this fun stuff that really financial advisory and stock brokerage deals with. So we're in essence stockbrokering real estate. And I like to tell newbies coming into the business like hey, you might want to get your feet wet with leasing or property management as opposed to jumping in to investment sales. But you know, to each his own. Some are like, hey, I, I'm Most intrigued by investment sales. And, you know, I've got some pep on my step and I'm gonna prove you wrong, buddy.

Yeah.

And I, I, obviously, you know, if, if I'm absorbing that, I can only respect it.

What do you think is your edge? Like, what do you do different than other people that have made you so successful?

I'm no, nonsense. I, I cut the noise, no bs. I'm very client centric. I'm very, very result oriented. I'm gonna say this for the second time on this podcast. Results speak for themselves. So I'd like to be able to say my referral network and my multi billion dollar track record play a part, but results, ultimately, you're only as good as your last deal. So if I get a deal done and I call you and I say, hannah, I just traded, I listed as of late a $90 million asset. It's, it's, it's in the soft launch stages. But if I get it done, guess what? I'm looking back in retro, in retrospect, and saying to myself, I've closed bigger deals than, than that, but I just got this done in real time. And the landscape's not the same, okay? They've muddied the waters with these damn interest rates, these spiking treasuries, this, this new administration, which I think is for the most part, and I don't want to inject politics here, forward thinking. It's just the tables have turned. So you have to be able to adapt. It's not about who's in office, okay? Whether it's Sleepy Joe, oops, did I say that? Or the Donald right?

Yep.

At the end of the day, you have to be able to pivot, okay? You have to be able to understand what is disrupting the industry. And how can I take advantage of that?

And how have you been able to navigate the winds of change per se, as interest rates have perpetually remained higher than they were and people, you know, got spoiled with how they were for a short period of time. And then the tariffs and just a lot of credit card debt overspending. A lot of people are over leveraged and maxed out right now. And like, how do you handle some of those objections from your clients? Like, the prices are too high, rates are too high, I'm going to wait or whatever. Or even sellers not coming down on prices because they're still unrealistic about cap rates. Like, how have you navigated that over the past couple of years?

Man, you just like, you hit it on the nail. I mean, that's what's taking place. Yeah, yeah. So look, you have to have a maturation level in this business. I mean, there's, there's cycles and you have to connect the dots point blank. I mean, if you don't get that, then, you know, there's. What is it? Peaks and troughs. Right. If you look at the chart, looks like sharks. Sharks teeth. Yeah, right. That was stock brokerage, by the way. So.

Yeah. Higher highs or lower lows?

Highs and lows. Right, so they say. I like to say I've said this before, I'm a very old man from my young age in this business. I've seen all the cycles, okay? And I'm not one of. All due respect, the older guys behind the desk, we like to categorize them as what, dinosaurs? You said that, not me.

No, that was you.

So that was the generation though of brokerage, older guys, right? And they look down on you if you're coming in and you're seeing if you can make a quick buck. They said to themselves, oh, they don't get it. This is career driven, you know, it's relationship oriented. This young punk thinks he's a fast talker, this and that. So back to the premise of the question.

How have you navigated the changing policies and the difficult environment that we're in right now?

Yeah, yeah. So, so I, I, I, I, I look at this business in a sense that if you haven't seen the cycles, then it's going to piss you off. We like to say these brokers, these newbies, these new bloods, these neophytes, they like to transition from when the, when, when the market goes bad. It's just like a coinage. But from brokers to bus drivers, they're going to step into any given industry, right, to make sense of making a living. You can't blame them, okay? Because our business is nothing nice. It's as cutthroat as it gets. I know firsthand when it comes to my counterparts and my competition and my clients, okay? Loyalty is fickle. Just a heads up, I think you might be aware.

Oh, I'm highly aware.

So, yeah. So it's just, it takes a lot of patience to understand what the hell is taking place right now. You know, in 22, if I tell you what kind of year I had, you might not believe me. Outside grows whatever it is. I'm not trying to get in the numbers I'm not supposed to in my position. I wouldn't be who I am if I'm just dropping numbers on people. But if 22 was a heyday, 23, all of a sudden we're frozen. We're relatively frozen. We've got rolling business, clients, constituency, 50 states, we're good. But it's like, man, if you need a lifestyle change at that point, and I'm young in the business, it's scary. It's like, it's like, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I consummate a big closing in August. But my doctor buddy who's clearing, you know, a hundred thousand a month, okay, is has like this, this consistency level of income. I am sporadic. I got to close this, I got to close this, I got to close that. Fortunately, in my world I've developed that continuum just like a doctor in terms of pipelining and that mentality and understanding. I have to have rolling escrows, 30 of them. I have to have rolling listings, I believe 120 plus right now. Crexi, fortunately, the world's largest investment platform gave us number one sale listing broker nationwide, which was a nice testament to our drive. You know, I don't want to be looked at the Costco, the inventory giant of commercial real estate brokerage. But we have a ton of inventory and a lot of it is not offing off the shelves immediately. And because we have a unique sweet spot even for top brokerages, we do a lot of big deals. And look, it's not to say that big deals matter, okay? That's very one dimensional, a shortsighted to say. I do 50 million, I do $200 million deals, I do $300 million deals. Great. But guess what? You can have a sweet spot with three to $5 million deals and do better than the best of them because you have a business plan, right? And you're perpetuating that business plan and you're branding it. So we do a lot of big deals. And that hasn't exactly been conducive to 7% interest rates because every incremental increase, every basis point, bip spike plays a part on, on a $200 million deal.

Yeah.

Okay, now am I saying that we're subjecting ourselves to big deals? No way. We do everything under the sun. We do high volume net lease, we do multifamily across the board and we cross pollinate all of that. But we've been known in trailing years, I'd say since 2020 ish, to do large price point deals. Okay? We have 120 plus listings on market right now. I don't know if another broker can speak to that. Maybe they can, depending on their specialty. We have 190 off market. A lot of this will move off the shelves, ideally, once Mr. Powell decides to make an announcement.

Right.

And I hope it's not just 25 bips. I hope he's giving consideration to maybe 50. I don't know if it's going to go back to the ways of old. Yeah, I don't think.

I can't. It'd be a shit show.

That could be the case. Right?

Yeah.

Right. Just, just like they say. No offense to my crypto guy, he's back here. But if bitcoin goes to a million a coin, isn't that like, quote unquote, a shit show at that point?

No, I don't think so. And everybody's bitcoin.

So do I. Speaking of digital real estate, but the, the idea of 2 and 3% interest rates reflectively based on a 200 or 250 bip spread on the treasuries, the five year and tenure, is that what we go by? You know better, Hannah. Is that what we go by? The 5 and 10 year in our business? Okay, so reflective of 2 to 3, 2 to 3% rates. I'm going to town at that point. I'm refinancing everything. My commercial portfolios, the apartments. I'm going. I'm pinpointing the house I'm building at the moment. So it might be unlucky unless I can get perm debt on a refi as I build. But you know, everybody's going to go to town at that point. They're gonna have a window to like, right. Size their debt, to reappropriate their debt. Because a lot of it is lackluster, it's no good and it's rolling. There's a lot of that in the headlines. Rolling debt coming up in commercial.

Oh yeah. Trillion dollar title dollar this and that.

I see it all. I see it all. I upkeep very much. I like to, you know, stay informed. It's just my passion, really. I want to know what the latest is in terms of like ground level deal making. Who's doing this deal, why, who's chasing this deal, who's partnering up, who's venturing. And some of it is just hearsay and some of it is actuality. And I, and, and, and that's just my level of passion for this business. I like to upkeep in terms of informational output. What's out there, what's taking place, the latest trends, the hot to trot tenants, the tendencies, the durabilities, you name it.

What is your outlook on the economy over the next, you know, 1, 3, 5, 10 years in real estate?

Yeah, I, I, I, I, I think.

Looking at the market cycle, I'm going.

To fault Michigan right now. Don't think I'm that pro Michigan, but I am, I really am. A lot of the, a lot of the, I don't like to say this because people like to say Simon said this, but a lot of the brokerage community, and maybe our buddy Jeff Harris knows who's a good buddy of mine, HB Capital over there. A lot of the brokerage community is doom and gloom sometimes, you know, And I used to, and coming from California, it was like they're painting a picture of roses. And it's like, yeah, take this down and pay 30% inflationary pricing and have at it. I come here and they're like, man, can somebody get a deal done in this town? And it's like I had to be able to find that happy medium and understand that I don't get as much velocity as the California guys do. That's what they love because, you know, they're a, they're a universe. Right. I, I'm going to take advantage of what I'm working with. That's the best I can do. That's where I'm at. So make the best of it, buddy. Right. So, so because of that, I'm an eternal optimist. I'm not a prisoner of hope like a lot of these brokers are. Yeah, I really am. And I think that short term, midterm, long term, the economy will uphold itself. I think it's policy driven. Am I a fan not to inject politics of the tariffs? That's a whole different dialogue, I think, in a lot of ways to reinforce our national identity in the form of, I guess in the favor of the administration, a populist approach, but moreover, a nationalist approach. I don't think it's a bad thing. I think we're cutting into our fair share. Okay. So nobody can really argue that, no matter what side of the aisle you're on. And I consider myself overall a moderate. Right. But you can't argue that. You know, if it's advantageous to us, you're here. Okay? Unless you're anti American, that's okay. Go burn a flag. You're going to jail for a year. Did you see that executive order the other day? Yeah, yeah. So I'm a patriot. It's like in my DNA, it flows through my veins. And I'm optimistic in terms of it where this country goes. I just think the rest of the world follows. And I hope to answer your question in coming months, it only gets better, especially as it relates to our transactional business. And I think in general, we will uphold ourselves. We will manifest our destiny, and that is a greater America as we go.

Yeah, yeah.

Did that sound too altruistic? Because I didn't intend to go there, but I just think we're going to have bumps in the road and we always will.

Yeah, right. Yeah. I think the real pros shine in every market you go see.

You just capsized it for me, man. I just like went on and on and on and you just like sort of put it in perspective, put it in a box. I like that.

Well, it's just like you said, I mean, some people, like in brokerage, it's very well known, when the market's good, everybody thinks they're pro. Everybody's like, I'm on top of the world. I can do this.

I'm an overnight, especially our business.

Yeah. And then as soon as the market turns, you know, 80% of the brokers are gone. And I love those times because. Wipes out all the competition and allows you to continue to rise to the top. But yeah, those guys vamoose. Yeah.

They're. They're never to be seen.

Oh yeah.

Until the rebound.

Yeah. But it's, it's fun. It's always fun to learn and grow. And like, I try to study more of the macroeconomic trends and cycles and there is a lot of concern from some economists out there that the macroeconomic cycle is coming to a difficult time.

So when you say that, are you talking about the national debt? Are you speaking to the recent inflation? Are you speaking to consumer confidence? Or really just all of the above?

All the above, yeah. Because I watch a lot of podcasts. I watch the all in podcast as one of a whole bunch of different things that I watch. Economists and all that. And who was I watching? Ray Dalio. I was watching Ray Dalio's interview like a week ago and he was talking about the, the, the once in a lifetime cycle, like the hundred year cycle. We have these, you know, seven year, four to ten year cycles, whatever. And then we have the longer, grander cycles. And I think he was expressing some concern.

Is that like the industrial revolution type of cycle?

Basically, yeah. Like revolutions that come in. But I don't, I'm not an economist, so I don't know too much about all those stuff. All those things. But it's just interesting to see some people are very Bullish on the near future. And some people are like very bearish and ultimately nobody knows where it's going to end up or where it's going to shake out. But I just know if you are doing the best that you possibly can and you're growing every single day and you're operating with integrity and passion for what you do and the people that you serve, you are always going to rise.

Agreed? Agreed. Well put.

Thank you.

Yeah.

So I want to talk about your book, Diary of a Deal Maker. I haven't read it yet, but I'm going to, I'm going to have to have you sign it for me. But can you walk through some of the core lessons that you taught in this book?

Yeah, there's quite a bit, but high level. It's a lot of the hurdles that I went through, a lot of the naysayers, a lot of the contrarian viewpoints on really me and my abilities and my decision making, venturing out and migrating and getting into this business. I had somebody tell me, I remember I had somebody tell me, and this gentleman knows who he is. He said, if you leave this firm, this was like my inception into commercial real estate. He says, you will never survive in this town. You cannot go to another house and expect to succeed. You're from nowhere and nobody cares about you. Wow. And, and I was, I grew up a little bit thick skinned. So it's just like it didn't hit me that way. I, I know the, the, my sort of like my, my team there, my, the other newbies or the one of them was a girl. She, she was, she took it very emotional. She was very hurt, the way they treated us. So I just looked at him like in my mind like I'm not going to react because he has a point. I'm not going to, I'm not going to, you know, ever. I'm not going to stir up drama in this town because I'm here to make myself. I took it that seriously. So I just looked at him as if, are you done? Are you done now? You know, and he threatened me in essence, like, just leave commercial real estate. So I sort of touched on that in the book. The hurdles. And then I get into hence the hurdles and the hustle. The hustle. And the hustle is the fun part. But the hustle's like sort of calculated too. I mean the hustle has so many different aspects to it. The hustle is like you said, what's your take on losses and your biggest loss? That's part and parcel. If you don't lose, you don't win.

What do you think is your number one attribute to your success? Like you, a character trait in you or your. Your unique gift and ability that other people don't have?

I'd like to be able to say it's my no nonsense approach and I am able to relate to somebody I can learn from. I think that matters. I think if you can sit at a table with somebody superior to you, somebody who you think you want to be someday, maybe to some extent in terms of their success or in terms of, I don't know, however you look at it, their lifestyle or their accomplishments. But if you can sit there and you can absorb and carry on a conversation and it's a he's a he or she is a mutual benefactor, then you can go places in life. And I think I have that ability. Relationships and communication, you know, if I'm to, you know, say that about myself. But yeah, relationship oriented, very. It's not the product, it's the partner. Somebody said that, by the way. Yeah, it's the partnership. It's not a transaction. Me and you can go do a hundred million dollar deal, right? What are we gonna make, Jeff? What do you charge on that, like five points? Yeah, five million bucks. So we take our five million bucks and does the thread go long at that point? Right? Yeah, we're getting taxed on the 5 million, right. What's our tax bracket? Like 60% or something like that. So we're left with what is that, 2 million bucks, right? 40% on 5 million, am I right? Yeah, yeah, 2 million bucks. And so I'm net 2 million. I'm ahead of all my peers. I'm living life, I'm feeling good. Do I spend it, do I invest it? It's like sort of like, you know, it's a personification of what we do. Like, do we want to perpetuate our success or do we want to broadcast it? No, we want to make the most of it. We don't want to get to the top. We want to learn how to stay there.

Have you. Do you invest in your clients deals? Yeah.

Yeah. And I don't necessarily publicize that, but I am a deal junkie. So if they're going to ask me to invest because they have the ultimate confidence in me as a partner and as a consultant. See, I'm not just an order taker. I'm not there for collecting fees, so the client can call me and tell me what to do. Ideally, you know, he's taking heed of My guidance, my advisory, my experience. And if that's the case, then it's mutual.

Yeah.

And before you know it, partnerships are an evolution. It is what it is. It's, it's a byproduct of that type of relationship.

And then are you buying your own real estate as well like your, with your.

Yeah, yeah. So I decided to delve into multi family and I have very fortunately, humbly speaking, pretty good size portfolio, multiple multi hundred unit portfolio and that's personally owned in conjunction with my brother in law, my brother and we spearhead that. And then I've invested in just syndications in passing with, with relationships and clients that I value. And if I can be that value add in terms of an investment piece, I will be. Even if sometimes I'm not as inclined. If they're a really good client and you know, I want to be part of their inner circle and you know, their, their, their, their forward motion and their success, then I'll invest. I'm vested. Consider me vested. Right. I mean I'm not mandated to do so, but I'm in those types of deals. I'm in the multi and I'm in, I'm in ground up the you know, very unique creative solution that's remedied to deals such as public private partnerships. I'm in those on university campuses and I've done ground up with a partnership in the urban core, the live work play, the urban schematic and so development multi subset of shopping centers and syndications that no range from anything to medical. I'd say office, really, really sought after, highly desirable office. I'm not the biggest fan of office but if it's in that, like I said that, that urban core, then I think it pays dividends long term. Retail and apartments are my bread and butter. So yeah, I'm invested in, in many deals over the years and, and, and it's nice, it's nice to be able to diversify, you know, eventually because my bread and butter is brokerage. I run a full time national brokerage. I don't have the luxury of operating, you know, a gas station or doing something else on the side. So ideally if I'm in plazas and apartments, it's more of a passive income, it's more of a paper pushing. I have a management company in place and that's, that's my form of diversification. You know there's other buckets obviously. You know, there's life insurance and there's stock market brokerage bonds and munis and treasuries. It's nice to be able to have buckets. Right. So that's my, that's my real estate bucket, my portfolio. Right. And growing and scaling. I'm big on scale. Big on scale. And startups, I'm investing in those too. And where's my crypto guy? He's somewhere over there. Crypto, no question. I'm not opposed to crypto. I'm not a mad genius when it comes to crypto, but I mean, based on what I'm hearing and based on the way the market's going, then crypto digital currency can certainly prove to be part of our future.

Yeah, I agree. I'm long on.

So moral of the story, Diversification.

Yeah. Where do you see the biggest opportunity in commercial real estate over the next decade?

I see go long on durability. So do you remember how essentials played out during COVID Yeah, the guys with like literally like grocery stores and liquor stores and gas stations. Right. Essentials. So if you look at medical, all encompassing medical, really high level, ground level, you name it, those types of deals, they're not going anywhere. Groceries, not going anywhere. Essentials will play a part. Now if you're really forward thinking, then you'll say to yourself, AI is going to play a huge part in real estate and data centers is the place to be. I'm getting my feet very wet with data center development at the moment. Again, you might want to cut that part out because we don't want to give away too much. But that essential output, in terms of whether it's experiential, whether it's can, can you combat it? Can, can, can, can e commerce prove to be a disruptor? If it can, can it consolidate, integrate and get smarter? If not, then you know, real estate in the form of a dwelling, multifamily, I don't necessarily think that's going anywhere. I know Cardone likes to say, you know, it's like the godsend and he likes to benefit himself if you send him five bucks or 500 bucks or 5,000 bucks. And but that said, I don't. I think multifamily, I think this, I think we live in a renter's nation and I think housing is like, you know, there's a lot of juxtapositioning with the idea of owning a house today. Yeah, it's not as easy and you know, you should be so fortunate to be within a single family resident these days. And if, and if not, if you're preferential towards renting, you are for the right reasons because it makes sense. Depending on your situational environment and your career and the idea of your lifestyle.

Cool. I know we gotta. We gotta wrap up here, but what. Two, two final questions. Number one, what keeps you up at night?

Isn't that what we just talked about?

Like, what's your biggest, your biggest fear in your life?

I really am just like more of a traditional backbone. So I think about my kids, think about my family, my wife, think about their well being, their welfare. I want to be that protector provider. That's really what it comes down to at the end of the day, as much as we have going on in our lives. So it's family. And, you know, the, the things that keep me up at night are the things that, that drive me at the same time. So it's, where can I get and why? Right. Like we talked about. Tom Brady said, I didn't come this far to only come this far. And so I don't. I'm not a proponent of retirement. I don't know if you are.

No, I love what I. Yeah, I.

Know back in, like, the industrial age, retirement was like the go to, that was the destination, you know, riding off into the sunset. But that's not me. I see guys that I admire. They're in their 80s and they're, and they're, you know, they're, they're, they're killers. They're dealmakers. And they're on the phones. Whether they're the chairman, whether they're sitting in a backdrop, whether they're shadowing their offspring at the company. They're still doing deals.

Yeah.

And they might not have to do deals. There you go. There you go. So that man's what, 80 years old?

Yeah, I think so.

And he's a billionaire and he's got how many grandchildren and he's technically working for free? So. Say what you want. I mean, you could hate the guy, love the guy. That's as objective as it gets.

Yeah.

Right.

So it's just the love of the game.

It's the love of the game, and you can't make that walk away from you. So Michael Jordan has this love of the game that's like unsurpassed. Right. No equivalent. And please don't say LeBron, otherwise it'll hurt my feelings. And what did he have to do? He had to sort of pivot and he had to make sense of what can continue to drive me. And maybe we all have a pivot in our lives at some point. Right. But he, his transcendence was golf. That's his competitive set now. And that's where his juices flow. And you can't blame him because if he's still playing basketball, you know, physically it's inhibiting and, you know, you don't have. There's no longevity factor there.

Yeah.

So you gotta be able to keep that drive, and you have to be able to retrofit it if need be, because sometimes that plays a part as it relates to aging and lifestyle.

Yeah. What keeps you going? Like, what is your. Why. What mission are you on?

Success. I'm too competitive. I don't want to be told no. Does that. Does that fill the void in terms of your question?

No. I love it. Just constantly growing, like reaching your highest potential and never quitting.

You have to envision it, too. Sometimes you can't just say reaching your highest potential. And I know you didn't mean it that way, but sometimes it just sounds so vanilla. But you have to envision, like, where do I see myself and how can I accomplish what needs to be done in order to envision that? What I mean by that is there's a paradigm shift sometimes that takes place in your life and you don't realize you're in a place you never thought you would be. And that's because of drive. That's because of the pursuit. Shannon Sharp once said, I think we've had one too many quotes, but it's okay. Shannon Sharp once said, don't chase the bag, chase the game. Yeah. You gotta be able to chase the game. The bag's gonna come. Money's gonna come. Awesome.

Well, thanks, Simon.

Of course. Thank you for having me, Hannah.

Of course. Thanks.

It's a pleasure. And I look forward to doing a ton of business, high volume all throughout the years with HP Capital, by the way.

Thanks, Sim.