What People Should Learn About Ownership, Rent, And Real Wealth | Aaron Zucker

Gary Vaynerchuk said this once and it's really resonated with me. People think entrepreneurship is about being the boss and setting your own schedule and having people work for you. It's the total opposite. Mm-hmm. It's never being off. It's survival. And you work for your employees, you work for your teammates, right?

When we are entrepreneurs, it feels so unsafe and it feels so lonely. And then there's so many unknowns and uncertainties and like you're always walking a path that you haven't walked before.

Don't go into business with your friends, you become friends with people you do business with. Just being able to confide with other people who don't have anything in it to gain other than just helping, that's it. It's quite the blessing.

What's the number one thing you attribute your success to over anything else?

My why.

What's your why?

My dad paid for my education. I walked out of college with no debt, and I'm going to do something average? Fuck that. Mediocrity is not interesting. It's unacceptable. It's not going to happen.

Welcome back to the Hannah Hammond Show. I'm here today with actually one of our clients at HB Capital, Aaron Zucker, who's the founder and CEO of Zucker Investment Group, also known as ZIG. And you are based out of Charlotte, North Carolina.

That's right.

And flew all the way in for, well, this at— no.

Yeah, exactly.

The Open.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. The Open. You, you're meeting with a bunch of your clients and, uh, we were just talking offline about your strategy, but What he focuses on is retail investment real estate. So excited to dive into your story. Your company's not super old, but you've done over $50 million in deals already. And you're, you've mentioned that you are a naturally screwed up in the head entrepreneur. So I really wanna dive into that because so am I and so is everyone else. But thanks for coming on the show.

Yeah. You know, it's interesting, like the entrepreneur thing. Thank you for having me. Of course. First off, the, the entrepreneur thing, I think that's what the label is of naturally screwed up in the head, but still like driven and attempting to be successful. I think that's really what the definition of entrepreneur is. Entrepreneur should be in the dictionary.

I think so too.

Let's roll with it.

Yeah, we should tell, uh, Grok— what is it, Grokopedia? Yeah, that is the definition of entrepreneur.

Let's get the copyrights going.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's awesome. And so let's dive back into kind of the beginning and where you came from, because you said you were— you're a first-generation American.

I am, so technically speaking, yes.

Yeah. So like, what was your background like? When did you figure out that you were going to be an entrepreneur? When did you— what was that catalyst moment where you got the bug of, I'm gonna be, you know, a founder and CEO and a real estate investor? And what was What did that journey look like?

Yeah, so I had a pretty shitty business plan coming out of high school. I went to a big state school and started pursuing a degree in communications. It's not really like a recipe for guaranteed success in life. Right. I thought communications degrees meant like all you do is communicate with people, which that part I kind of like. And I was doing some communicating one night over a few drinks with some friends in college, and we started talking about, and just to be very clear, young boys turning, trying to turn into men while drinking in college, conversations happen. And this one's pretty common: we should buy a bar one day. Difference was, between me and my 3 friends, we decided to actually do it. Wow. And so my junior year in college at the University of Alabama— Roll Tide for anybody out there listening— uh, I was a business owner kind of overnight. We canvassed, we went to a couple different bars and ran into an old guy. I use air quotes as I say this because I'm now older than he was at that time, right? So Major pain to the— shot to the gut. But, and we bought his, at that time, failing business from him for not a lot of money. But it was really cool because we, I say, structured a deal. We basically just said yes to whatever he said because we didn't know any better. And he offered seller financing because he knew that we would never get a bank loan. This was for idiotic college kids. Like, he knew exactly what he was getting into. And he was thinking probably like, hey, look, I get a down payment from these schmucks. I pocket it if they don't pay me. If they do pay me, then like I can move on with my life because I'm in my mid-30s and owning and operating a bar in a college town may not be for me anymore. So one thing led to another. We got the deal done. Some crazy stories behind how that all went down. Some probably equally crazy stories about what you think may have happened after buying the bar. It's exactly what you think it was. A lot of, you know, we talk about cycles and real estate and financial cycles. Well, my world at that time, the cycle was, you You get the girls into the bar of age, not of age, doesn't really matter. That'll bring in the guys. The guys are especially at a big Greek school, Greek system school like Alabama. They'll use their parents' money and it just flows, you know, the OPM like I've heard you reference and something that we use a little bit of at Zig. And so that was my first— that was my first real education. I went to a great school. I had an amazing childhood growing up, I should say, went to a great college. Learned a ton in the classroom. Maybe, maybe not. I learned a lot in 3 or 4 months even of owning a bar than I would have ever learned in any classroom. And so from there, one of my responsibilities, we just took turns doing different things. And one month it was my turn to walk the rent check to the landlord's office. And you're laughing because I walked a check over to an office that, that did used to happen for people that are younger in the business.

Though it's funny to— sorry to interrupt here, but it's one of my— one of our clients at HP Capital, they do a lot of mobile home parks and they find these value-add assets. And they'll be like, yeah, they still— the tenants still like hand-deliver checks. Like for these storage facilities and mobile home parks, they still hand-deliver checks. There's no tech and all that. So some people still do that.

Yeah. Well, in 2010 it was certainly a thing and the landlord's office was down the street. He was never there though. And I would— and in fact, I learned that because I went on a Thursday afternoon at like 2:00 and there was no one there. And I'm like walking back with what felt like $1 million to me. It turned out to be $3,200 for our rent. And I went back and I asked my partners and some of our staff that was there, like, what's going on here? And they're like, Zach, do you not know the deal here? And I was like, if I knew the deal, guys, I wouldn't be asking you about it. Like, what's going on? And they said that that guy is on the golf course all the time. Well, how does he do that? Doesn't he have to work? And they were saying he takes the rent money from 400 properties that he owns in Tuscaloosa and lives on that. And I said, time the fuck out. We're busting our butts and getting in underage girls and taking risk and kids. I should say there's plenty of underage guys there too. Believe me, we didn't discriminate. Broken beer bottles, you know, all the risks associated with owning and operating a bar, all to just pay this guy rent so he can play golf. And they're like, yeah. I was like, I want to be the guy that collects rent. So you asked, you know, what inspired me to get into it? How did you trip and fall into it? Because, you know, commercial real estate, as you well know, there's really generally two paths that people get into it. The first one is through family. They're educated and are taught to— this is a great business, get into it, whether it's just in brokerage, like an advisory business like you have, or as a developer or whatever it may be. Or the other compartmentalized route is I kind of tripped and fell into it and I didn't know it was a thing, but it's pretty cool.

Yeah.

And that was my route and I haven't really looked back since. One of my business partners agreed to stay back and run it. I eventually got a job as a leasing agent with a large shopping center owner. And, you know, eventually couple jobs, couple success stories later, ended up starting Zig.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's cool. It's funny 'cause that's, I kind of tripped and fell into it too. I mean, I read Rich Dad Poor Dad at 13, so that gave me the bug of real estate pretty early. Yeah. But when I was 18 and I got my real estate license and held an open house, a residential brokerage, residential home, and then got a million-dollar commercial listing And so I was like me tripping and falling into commercial real estate because I didn't know I could actually get into it, especially at 18. I was like, I'm going to have to make all this money and do residential and do investments and in residential housing and all that and just happened to get started with it and then realized I could do it.

Your show, but I'm going to ask a question.

Yeah, of course.

How often do you get— because I'm sure people are reaching out to you all the time for mentorship or just like, hey, how do you get into it? Or what, you know, what did you do to be successful at a young age? And and the speaking that I do, particularly on campuses or whatever, when that comes up, people will ask me often, would that have— when they think they, they think they want to become a real estate investor, it's not for everybody. Let's be abundantly clear about that. But everybody seems to want to do it. I often get asked like, do I need to go into residential first to do it? I'm curious, do you, do you get that a lot? Because the two, as you know, I mean, there's like no zero correlation, I would say, basically.

Yeah.

So, I mean, it's definitely a misconception out there, I find.

It is. And it's the path of least resistance, right? Like, I always pick the harder thing, the thing that has a higher barrier to entry, because then there's less competition.

Yep.

And Alex Hormozi talks about this too, is like, the harder something is, the more excited I get, because that means most people aren't going to freaking even attempt to do it.

Yep.

And so residential is like the easy thing that everybody can do, and they drop out of high school and they don't know what to do with their life. They're like, let me get a residential license and let me start selling houses. And there's 100 1,000 agents in a city that needs 5. But, you know, that's just the easy path. And most people don't think that they can do commercial. And so I jumped right into commercial. I have done residential. I've done both. I have residential properties as well. And I was always— I just wanted to learn everything when it came to real estate investing. And my residential properties did really good and I've sold residential houses as well. And at my real estate brokerage, we do residential as well as commercial. But, you know, I know lots of people that jumped straight into commercial, like That client I was just talking about does mobile home parks. He made $10 million from being a broke kid living on somebody's couch in the great financial crisis and then made $10 million from cold calling lists of data that he got online for mobile home park owners and assigning the contracts to a mobile home park, you know, a value-add investor developer that had the capital to buy it. And he's like, here's my underwriting criteria, find me deals and you'll make money. He made $10 million.

It's insane.

He negotiated equity in the deals, plus wholesale fees like assignment fees and commissions.

So it makes this place unbelievable, isn't it? Yeah, this place and this industry. You put those two things together, it's tough to really pout and be unhappy.

It's—

I know, it's an amazing business.

You have all the opportunity. If you're born, or if you live in America, you don't have to be born here. If you, if you can get into America, you have every single opportunity in the entire world to become as wealthy, as happy, as free like whatever you wanna create, you can create it. And so I absolutely, I get passionate about this because I absolutely hate victim mentality.

Oh my God. You took the words outta my mouth. Yes. Yes.

It's like, it doesn't matter what, where you came from, what country you came from, what language you speak. I know so many people that migrated here at, you know, 17 years old, didn't speak the language, had a dollar to their name, and they went off to become massive CEOs and successful entrepreneurs at any, any different races, like different backgrounds, didn't know the language. There's literally no excuse. And then when, I mean, real estate has just been such a blessing. And then all the tax codes and tax strategies that you get through real estate and the appreciation. And it's just, you know, real estate, whether you're a real estate operator like you are or you're a real estate investor, which would be more like what I am, right? I'm a business owner, but I'm not, I'm not a real estate operator. I invest in real estate.

Sure.

Both of them are so incredible and they're both great paths to success. And you don't need to be in the business of real estate to realize all of the amazing benefits of investing in real estate, because that's how I became a millionaire so quickly, was because I just invested in real estate and the government kept printing money, rent prices kept going up, asset values kept going up, renovated the properties, you know, in my spare time when I was working as an engineer. And then all of a sudden, voilà, you're a millionaire. And it didn't take a lot of effort to get there. I mean, yes, it takes effort, but it wasn't like I was some genius.

Well, And your peers don't do enough of what you're doing. When I say your peers, I really mean high-income earning full-time real estate practitioners. So whether you're the SVP of leasing at a REIT all the way, or certainly in particularly a 1099 contractor as a broker, either working for or owning your own firm, I empathize with my friends in the business because they're like being fiduciarily smart for themselves and saying, I got to save for taxes and do that. And I'm— I get that. But what I don't— what I struggle to understand, especially if you're really good at making real money, is why pay that check to Uncle Sam? I mean, you know, and again, I obviously have a high risk tolerance. Like, you've talked to me for a couple of minutes and you've probably picked up on that, especially knowing what I do. But to me, if you're going to pay that check to the government, it's gone. It's not coming back. The money's lost. Period. End of discussion. I don't know one person who's called the government back and said, hey, I paid taxes 7 years ago. What's the return been like on that since you got it? May I please have that return back? So whereas if you invest and even as an LP, if you don't have the bandwidth, which sounds like it's a little bit more of what you're doing, and I recommend that a lot of my friends in brokerage did it. That's how I got started as an investor. I invested as an LP a couple of times. Big fan of that, by the way. Even if you want to become a GP, is to get that education.

But, and for those who don't know, sorry.

Yes, a limited partner is someone whose risk is totally in on just the check that they write. They typically are not— more than typically, almost virtually all the time— are not signing on personal guarantees. They aren't putting the deals together. It's— you're— the hat's being passed to you, metaphorically speaking, whereas the GP, the general partner, otherwise known as the sponsor, is the one who's putting together the deal, is responsible for when an LP leaves them at the dance, they got to fund the money. When the bank calls, when there's a personal guarantee due, because shit hits the fan, they're the ones responsible for it. So when I alluded to my risk tolerance before, here I am, the schmuck, saying, yep, I'm the GP. Now, we also, as GPs, have the opportunity to make more money than our LP compadres, especially if deals are structured properly. Yeah, if all goes well, you know, knock on wood. This place is so nice, I'll knock on glass. We've been fortunate to not have any major fuckups yet at Zig. But I'll tell you the same thing I tell every prospective investor, every bank, every operating partner we work with, every— otherwise known as tenants. We're one bad deal away from going out of business. And that's— so we were super aggressive and I'm considered aggressive by almost everybody I know. Like, I want to grow my business, I want to scale, I want to do whatever it takes. But when I isolate each deal, it's about scrutinizing it to a point and looking— basically being a detective and trying to figure out a reason why not to do it. And if a deal comes across as perfect, don't do it because that doesn't exist either. It's about assessing what could potentially go wrong with the deal, right? And being okay and assuming that that risk is acceptable in comparison to the upside associated with it.

Right.

I know, riveting stuff I'm offering. Obviously.

No, I love that. It is so good because I'm in Scott Shields Mastermind Commercial Academy and their quote is, one deal, one time can change your life forever. And we were all joking because a lot of people are in tough spots right now.

Right.

They got overpaid for assets, low interest rates.

Mind you, it's 2026 right now as we record this. A lot of rent loans are 5-year maturity loans from 2021. I mean, what am I telling you for? You know this. But speaking why you should be in touch with Hannah Hammond Hammond and her team at HB Capital, who we're obviously advocates for, we, we work closely with them. We're doing several transactions right now, which is probably how I was able to call my way onto this podcast, maybe. But the one of the perks of being a client. Yeah, for sure. But, you know, the 20 and 21 loans when the money was free. Yeah, those loans are coming due. And so if you were overstretching and overpaying for properties and you haven't sold them yet, you have to refi. Can your refi meet, you know, the debt service coverage ratio that a lender is going to require moving forward? Some will, a lot will, but not all of them. And that's where there's opportunity, right?

And that's also where one deal one time can change your life forever in the negative. Do, right? Just like you said.

Oh, I thought that's what you meant when you said it the first time.

No, no. Like, that's their, their positive. Like, one deal, one time could change your life forever. Because when he first got in real estate, he did his first deal on seller financing, put no money down. I think he made $2 million on that deal, and that kickstarted— changed his whole life. But on the flip side, you could also do one deal, one time and lose everything.

Totally right. You could be upside down. You know, that's the thing about, you know, in the residential side with some of like the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac products with like 2%, 3% down, or even the highly leveraged commercial real estate operators. Like, you go in with no equity, that's exciting, and the return can become infinity. That's cool. But if the property depreciates for any way, shape, or form anytime after closing, you now are literally— it's become a full-blown liability, not only with the debt that you own it, but like, you now, in order to make yourself, your asset whole, you have to write a check in order to be able to do that.

Yeah, and if you don't have enough cash, it burns fast.

And yet, and yet here we are at the same time, people like you and I are trying to get rid of our cash as fast as possible. Yeah. So it's weird dichotomy that we've signed ourselves up for, which makes us screwed up in the head entrepreneurs.

Yeah.

Coming back to the beginning of the show.

Yeah, no, it, it's crazy. And that's what I did a short form video on that is it is such a skill to be able to understand and balance cash versus invested assets. Because we want our money making babies all the time. We want our money going to work because if it's sitting in the bank account, it's losing value. But at the same time, if we over-leverage and we have all of our money in assets and all assets drop in price and we have no cash, yep, we also lose everything.

Yep.

Right. And so it's always that balance of like, how much cash are we sitting on or in at least money markets or interest-bearing accounts? But we can actually have money to take advantage of the opportunities in times of distress. And not have everything tied up in assets. So I would try to be cautious about that message, right? Is like, have your money work for you. Don't keep your money in the bank because I say that all the time. But there's a flip side.

Yep.

Right. There's definitely a flip side. And like, cash is also king to be able to take advantage of assets and buying assets. You don't just want your cash never working for you for as long as you live, but it's working for you in a position to be able to pounce on opportunities when that time arises. And then you have to be able to dictate when are the approximate timelines based on indicators that I think it makes more sense to go more heavily in cash to be able to take advantage and protect myself in times when tenants don't pay. There's bankruptcies, you know, now, now you have a vacant building or your construction goes way over budget or your interest rate doubles over—

or there's a pandemic.

Exactly.

You name it.

The plandemic. Yeah. Which I'm sure we'll see more of those.

Yeah.

In the future. So I think that's good. And that's the thing with real estate transactions. You can't get out of them. You know, they're not—

it's— yeah, it's— I'm so glad you brought this up. Hot button. I get asked this for people who are interested in becoming LPs. So like, all right, Aaron, I subscribe to your idea. You are saying to be an LP a couple of times first. I did it 3 times before becoming a GP. I invested in other people's deals 3 times. That was perfect for me. It was awesome. I got to— I was paying for an education, right? Because I wrote a check. Now, in theory, like, you want to talk about, oh, an education is a good investment, it'll pay off. Like, there was nothing qualitative about this. X was going to turn into Y, that $25,000 or that $50,000 that I was investing in my friend's deals was going to turn into Y. And because I was writing that check, I kind of, you know, used a little good old-fashioned guilt. And I was like, hey man, like, how are you looking at this? Why are you doing this? Like, obviously I bought in enough to say yes, but like, teach me how you're doing it. And that was, that was huge too. So I was getting, even though I had to write a check, I was getting paid to become educated on how to become a GP, which was, which is really interesting. And so I rant on that. Coming back to the point of the concept of like, all right, I'm cool to be an LP. The biggest thing that I tell people that are considering becoming an LP first time, whether if it's in a ZIG deal or not, whether if it's, you know, in ZIG or HIG, Hannah Hammond Investment Group, whatever it may be called, is you need to understand, yes, it's an opportunity to make money. Yes, it's better than giving it to the government. And we've been emphatic in our communication together today about the benefits of those things. But the last thing I tell them is don't call me telling me you need the money tomorrow. Real estate is illiquid. Real estate is illiquid. Real estate is illiquid. If you think you might need it, don't do the deal. Or if you think you might need some of it, instead of investing $100,000 into it, put $50,000. Or instead of $50,000, put $25,000. Instead of $1 million, put, you know, whatever, however that applies to you.

Yeah. No, it's important. That's what I mean. I like that real estate is illiquid because I'm a, impulsive ADD visionary type person that likes opportunities, and stocks are just too easy for me to trade and make bad decisions.

So is that your drug? Are we staying away from them completely? Is that what happened?

No, I have some stocks. No, I've gotten better at just— my thing with stocks or crypto now is I just have automatic investments, dollar cost averaging, and I just don't really look at it. I do long-term plays. I'm not trying to play the market or trade the market, but I still sometimes get those impulses of like, oh, what's going on in the news? Or should I do over here? Or should I whatever? Yeah, you hear something at cocktail party.

Yeah. Did you hear that Nvidia is gonna go up 4,000%? Like, like whatever it may be. And, and you wanna jump at that itch, but oh, I commend you for staying disciplined with dollar cost averaging. I commend you for knowing what you're good at and staying in your lane, but also diversifying in a healthy way. That's awesome.

Yeah. I literally bought $100,000 worth of stocks after watching a podcast on the Diary of a CEO with, I mean, she's, she's, uh, Cathie Wood. She's the CEO of ARK Investing and she runs like multi-billion dollars of funds, but she's like, these are my stock tips that I just went on. I watched it on Wall Street. Yeah. I said, this is why I like real estate instead, because I can't just impulsively do those decisions. And fortunately, all those stocks are— I've actually made great returns. So she's a trusted person. But anyway, real estate forces you to be patient, and the appreciation and that patience over time, whether it's stocks or real estate or anything, is what compounds and builds. And so when you buy a real estate investment, you know, a $300, $400 a month cash flow check from a rental property doesn't seem exciting in year one. You're like, why would I take the risk? And it doesn't seem like a lot, right? But then 10 years later, now that's $4,000 a month and that asset is quadrupled in value, which is what happened with my first investment property. You're like, oh wow. And I didn't even do anything for that 10 years. It was managed by a manager. You know, the asset was just there. I renovated it when I first got it, hired a contractor to do that. And that was it. And so that is what's so nice is that it is illiquid. You aren't impulsive with your decision making and you really have to give it like serious thought because it takes effort to transact and to sell a property. So you have to be like, is this really the best investment decision for my plan? Like what I want to create? And that's what I've just found is if you just hold through the cycles, it's easier. But when you're an operator, you know, you're not just holding, right? No, you're transacting.

We try to sell. This is going to be— this one's big. Really, this was riveting information. We try to sell the property when it's worth the most.

Yeah, yeah, right. Buy low, sell high.

Yeah, exactly. I know, I know. That's really new information that your listeners haven't heard. But no, in all seriousness, we are guilty of selling quite a bit. I mean, the reality— yes, we're operators, but in a lot of ways we're an acquisition shop. And the acquisition shop essentially runs on— it's no different than a merchant who's selling goods like in order to sell more goods, you have to buy more of those goods. So let's say you have a high-end dress shoe store where you sell Louboutins or whatever. Like in order for that to— that was intentional.

I was like, could you see my red bottom?

I can see the red bottom. Where you sell those things, like in order, you have to have the inventory out there to get it. And if you're like, well, wait a second, if I sell 7 pairs, I can get to a point where I can get better buying scale or whatever that may be. So we use it and we have strategic relationships with the same operators that we're doing. Not for all of our deals. We still buy like a lot of real estate intrinsic stuff.

Wait, so back. Okay. What is your business plan for everyone?

So yeah, so when I started the business, I was a former leasing agent who had some success. So like I worked, as I mentioned before, I worked for a couple of large companies as a leasing guy in-house for the landlord thinking to come back to fully answer the question you asked at the beginning of the show, knowing that I wanted to own properties one day myself. And that's why I was told like, hey, look, you can have the best debt in the world, the best attorney, the best construction, whatever it is. None of it means shit if you can't lease it. So that's how— that's why I went into leasing and being able to identify why a site is good based on your end customer, which in that particular which in our business is the tenant. If the tenant can't make it and pay rent, like, who cares? Like, literally, the deal's using a Yiddish term, fuck up anyway, which means it's screwed up. And so that's how that was the impetus behind me going that path. Plus, like, I just like hustling and talking to people and doing all the things that would make, you know, a good broker in any way, shape, or form, or in my case, an in-house leasing agent. What that eventually led to was an education eventually a role with a large— with a not, not large, but a decent-sized family office down in South Florida that afforded me an opportunity to run their leasing platform at 27. I'm forever grateful to that family, the Wiener family. They're amazing people. In addition to the money that I was making, which was better than what I was making before, substantially better, albeit, I got the opportunity to be in the room when they were deciding, do we sell or do we refi? Do we hire this GC or that one? How do we structure this lease? Should we give the tenant, you know, a little bit of a break on rent in order to get a more favorable lease structure or whatever it may be for the landlord, like whatever that may be. And so that education propelled me into wanting to replicate what they were doing. The only difference is they were doing $30 million deals and I wanted to do $3 million deals. One, because I believed in the space too. I was looking to dial back risk a little bit. 3, didn't have the money.

Yeah.

So that was some of it was want and some of it was need to enter that space. And so the business plan started with buy well-located unanchored retail properties in secondary and tertiary markets across the eastern half of the country. 1, 2, skip a few. It's going pretty well. And there were some tweaks and modifications made and we still do that. For example, we're buying an ABC Liquor Store in Richmond, Virginia, that some company called HB Capital is financing for us right now. And actually, that should close in the next few days as of this recording.

I saw that in our deal pipeline.

Yeah, we're excited about it. Thank you to you and the team and we're pumped about the deal. But, and so we still do that. Like prime example, like that'll be our 70th acquisition in our history. But what we did is we said, how do we get to a point to where we can buy we could make the business more scalable, which had a lot to do with adopting EOS, which I know you're a fan of.

Yeah.

Where we've had some major transformations in all the businesses I'm involved in with EOS.

And what's EOS for the audience?

Yeah, the Entrepreneurial Operating System. It's based on— it's an operating system for businesses that is based from a book called Traction written by a guy named Gino Wickman. If anybody's considering starting a business or feels like they've, as they call it, reached the ceiling or hit the ceiling in their business and feels like it's got an opportunity to take it to the next level, or they feel like they're— especially the owner or the visionaries, typically the visionary— is sort of saying, I'm getting in the weeds and doing a million different things and working really hard, but I don't think I'm getting anything done actually, like, that's actually moving the needle. I highly recommend it, and it's, it's been transformational for my businesses and thus my life, which is— that's pretty cool.

Yeah.

Um, and so, and part of our evolution with that, and I don't know if— I don't know which question came first, it's how do we scale the business, or like, what should we do? How— I don't, I don't know. It all probably came from like my think time. So I have an hour each week where I think. No, no phones allowed, no electronics, just a pen and paper. Sometimes I sit on the couch like I'm in an old-school shrink's office, and sometimes I'm on a walk, whatever that may be. But some of The most transformational ideas I've had have come from that. So anybody who doesn't do that, I would consider doing that.

It's so important.

Yeah.

Yeah. That white space. And I was reading a book, I can't remember because I read it years ago, but he was talking about the importance of white space and thinking. And this goes all the way back to like scripture and the importance of silence and being still and all that. And then into business and entrepreneurship and leadership is he would plan something where he would do every quarter I think he would leave for like 1 to 3 days and go in nature or, you know, go get a hotel room, get away from the office, get away from the team, go walk on the beach, go walk in the mountains. And that's where all his creative ideas come in. And so I do the same thing. I have dedicated white space. I love that a little bit every day and then longer periods, you know, quarterly or weekly to, to really think. Because if you're just in the weeds of the business all the time, yeah, you don't get to work on your business. Yeah, you can't see the forest through the trees.

Correct. Exactly. And so I go— going back to that, like, I don't remember if I said to myself, we need to be buying real estate in a more scalable way by having the tenant ready to go, or if EOS inspired us. I think it was the former as opposed to the latter. But the point is, is we added in this second vertical where it's not just about the site, but how do we acquire the site? Because when you buy a great piece of real estate, it's not scalable. If you think about it, you buy the corner, of on Scottsdale Road or whatever it may be and you love it, there's nothing scalable about it. You have to go pick up the phone and make the next deal or see the next OM or whatever it is for however you source deals. But if you're scaling somebody else's business and being a capital and site selection partner, which is what we do at Zigg for them, if they want to open more units, conceptually speaking, they— that's how you know that you're going to buy more than one property, which is great. And so we didn't flip the business upside down. We just added a whole nother vertical to it. And that's been pretty transformational too. And so it's allowed us to be really intentional where we look for deals, how we look for them. We're product type specific. We're really focused in the QSR space, the automotive space, healthcare, really any sector that is fragmented. The operators take freestanding units. And ideally really strong preference, I would say almost required, probably required. It's recession-proof and e-commerce-proof.

Yeah. So are you targeting your tenants that are in, that are growing? So you're not going after big tenants like Chipotle or Starbucks or things like that. You're finding newer brands that are wanting to scale.

It may not be a newer brand. Franchising is, is a huge part of what we do and there's nothing new about Midas. There's nothing new about Taco Bell. Now, the operators, that's why fragmentation's a beautiful thing. We don't do drugstores. How many drugstore chains can you think of? Two.

Right.

So, and like, they don't need help and they have their own problems right now. That's maybe dollar stores, another example. We don't really do dollar store work because there's only two groups that do it. It went from three to two and that was transformational. And so because in a space where there's fragmentation, there's sellers, there's buyers, there's people who are growing and getting bigger. There's some that are selling. There's, there's small business owners that are selling for reasons that have nothing to do with the macroeconomic solutions being bad. They just want somebody else to come in and run their business. And so our 7-unit operator can come in and acquire the 2-unit group and get to 9. And so what we do is provide the capital and, and source those deals for them to be able to do it. And so that allows us— from the operator says, I want to get from 9 stores to 22. Great. That's 13 more properties for us to buy. Whereas if you just buy the corner on the good corner, which again, still do it, still love it, can make a great living doing that. It's just not as scalable. So we do both now.

Yeah. And you're buying preexisting buildings?

Preferably. We do do ground up. We do it. It's not my preference, but some of the brands that we work with, they have such unique prototypes.

Yeah.

That you can't, can't replicate it. So doing an existing building is almost more difficult. But we do it. It's gotten us into a lot of M&A as a result. So, you know, you might— maybe Jim Bob has 3 automotive shops. If we're working with a Midas franchisee, the Midas franchisee loves the M&A deal that includes the real estate. Why? Because there's an existing customer base. They can get open immediately. Changing signs and a couple of POS systems is a lot easier than going for development approval and finding the right contractor and taking 18 months to build. These guys want to get to market and they want to do it quickly. And this is more of a known commodity. Oh, and by the way, we can build it for less and they can charge— we can charge them lower rents. Like we all win. And the lower rent deals are the ones that we're able to sell in the market faster. Like for all those reasons and probably many more that I haven't even had the opportunity to talk about or can even think of right now, we are really pushing for second gen. Yeah. Will we do ground-up development? Yes. Have we done it? Yes. Do I enjoy it? Not my favorite thing.

Right.

Yeah.

Talk about can't get out of a deal.

Yeah.

Patient. Real patient with that. And there's just, you know, of course, more risk, more reward. Ground-up development, you have more opportunity for upside, but you also have more opportunity for one deal.

Yeah. Yeah.

One time could change your life forever in the bad way.

No, we're all— we're all good.

Yeah.

And we're getting comparable spreads as I whisper that with Yeah, yeah.

Well, that's good.

Whoever listens to this.

Yeah, right. You just have to hit the market right in development. You got to be on the right.

That's the other thing too. It's a risk mitigation factor to go like I told you, there's more reasons. Yeah, the risk mitigation thing too. Like I know what the, what the market cap rates look like a lot better in 3 months than I do in 18.

Right.

Or, you know, some developments are 3, 4, 5 and our acquisitions team would crack up if they were in here. But like because they they hear me say this all the time, like, I'm not in the business of predicting what cap rates are going to be like in 3 years. That's not the business I'm in. Like, I don't have a fucking crystal ball.

Like, right.

Like, we have ideas and we have thoughts and we have predictions to make. But like, I am much better at making decisions with more information, as I'm sure you and everybody else is.

Yep.

That's at least somewhat normal. I don't know.

But yeah, that's why I like— I like quicker timeline deals too. Quick flips, because there's just more that you can predict. Yep. And it's So, and I mean, we don't even know if, you know, AI will take us out in the next 10 years.

Yeah. Who knows? That's, yeah, that's a whole different world, which I know you're more into than I am, but.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, okay, so you're, you're identifying your tenants that are growing franchise brands, opening new locations, and then you know exactly what their target location is, what type of building they want.

We have it defined to a science and we tell the operating partners that we work with when we sign them on, the more specifics that we have, the more successful that we're going to be together, right? The operator who says, oh, I want to grow all over the country, like, that's a red flag. The one that says, I'm interested in growing in Texas, and particularly in DFW, in the northern suburbs, with close proximity to 635, with less than 2 competitors in a 30,000 population ring that's tied to a 5-mile radius, like, perfect. It's no different. I mean, it's no different than when you're interacting with a client, like So what do you want? Well, I want— and, you know, I'm making fun of myself here. I want the highest leverage, non-recourse, and no prepayment penalty. But also like demanding, but like also CMBS terms. Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, I can. Yeah, I can be difficult.

And I want a pony.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

A pony and a unicorn for that.

Yeah.

So, no, but like the— but I'm sure the clients that you guys have the best working relationships with, obviously ZIG is your favorite one. But if you had to pick a second favorite one, It's the ones who say, hey, Hannah, or the teammate on at HP Capital who's doing that work for the client, like, this is probably a CMBS deal, or this is probably a bank deal, or this is probably a private debt fund deal, or this is, you know, whatever, because we want these factors. Do you see it that way? You can be like, yes. And then I know you guys are consistently adding value saying, but we can also consider this, but this allows us to go around and run these two paths. We have these 7 lenders we're going to go talk to, or 70 lenders, whatever it is. Let's go.

Yep, exactly.

Yeah.

And that's why I always ask the question, what is your goal with this loan? Because we have 10,000 different products and lenders, 10,000 lenders with all different products, right? So is it highest leverage? Is it no guarantee? Is it quick money funding? Quick? Is it permanent? You know, lowest rate? Like, what is important to you? Because everybody's different. Some people are like, oh, sign me up on guarantees all day long. I want the lowest rate, best terms, all this. And then other people are like, no, you couldn't get me to sign a guarantee. So if they don't, have clarity on what they want, then we can't best fit to them. And then it's— yeah, so it's important. And some of that comes with experience too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Content idea for you, but you should go through one day like the different— because it's all levers if you think about it. Like, I want no guarantees really just means I'm willing to put more equity in. Like, that's really what it means. Or let me rephrase, it means I should be willing to put more equity in.

Yeah.

And like, I/O only and high leverage may mean like, okay, you want to sell the property as fast as possible. So then you probably— the trade-off there is you're probably going to need to guarantee a loan like that because— so me, I mean, maybe like build a little chart. I mean, you got the unbelievable follow on social media, obviously, but maybe that's a little idea for you to take.

I like that. Yeah, that's good.

I just want the credit where credit's due. I want you to be like, this brilliant idea was brought to you by my friend Aaron Zucker at ZIG. That's all I'm looking for.

I will. I'll make sure to give you credit.

There you go.

But okay, cool. So you have a great strategy and then when you're identifying your tenants, you're finding them properties that match their criteria and then you're having them sign a lease before you close on it.

That's right.

So the lease is already secured. So the banks like that. They're like, okay, cool, we have a tenant, we have a building.

Yep.

And then you're selling the building right away.

Well, typically, typically, yeah. I mean, there's certain situations where we would hold. There's some where we see an opportunity to maybe refi. I mean, take more of the Hannah Hammond strategy. If you will, on the way you may look at the world on long-term holds. But in general, we're selling. Why? Because we told the operator we're going to take it from 9 to 20, right? And when we told them that, we figured the best way to do that is recycle capital. And it allows us to, to set a comp. So that way when we're working with that operator, we know where we need to be in rent. We don't want to compromise their business. That's why we call them operating partners. Like, we don't want them to pay more in rent than they need to. But at the same time, like, we can't do this for free, right? Yeah, that's problematic too. And so we form like pretty meaningful partnerships that there's a lot of in-the-weeds stuff that goes on behind the scenes and we're pretty well tied to hip each other's hips together from that standpoint. So it's systematic to be able to set the business up for most success. Well, rather than guessing what our operating partner's credit's worth, selling it does that.

Yeah.

And it allows us to then say, okay, this is how stores 2 and through 7 that we do together are going to work.

And then they're getting a piece of the upside.

Or no, it depends on the situation. Are you just— I mean, look, entrepreneur to entrepreneur, right? Like, so there's some that are like, I want to own my real estate forever and this is my retirement plan. And so what we'll do is we'll consult and work with them like, what are you looking to accomplish? And if you're interested in owning real estate, not only can we work it out to where you own the real estate with us, but we can provide other alternative investment strategies and other real estate deals with the other deals that we're doing. So that way your entire life's work and net worth isn't in the same thing, right? Like, yes, real estate is different than the op co, but like if your op co goes to shit, then your real estate goes to shit. Like that's not a good diversification play. And the groups that we work with have at least 5 units, right? So like, and some of them have up to 75 units. So at some point when you're making meaningful cash flow from your operating business, you got to get your eggs in different places too, because it's not like the business can't afford to pay you to live your lifestyle. Like you've like you've done the hardest thing that an entrepreneur can do. You can build a business that is sustainable and livable and you didn't go out of business. Like, so, so yeah, I mean, we have a lot, we have a lot of wheeling and dealing that we've done because we want to make sure that the program that we have with the operating partner is by and large set up for success. Yeah. To where we can win together. That's why we don't call them our tenants. Like they're literally our partners.

Right. Yeah. And then they could even invest in the deal. Like they sure can deal, right?

They sure can.

So talk, talk about real quick what your capital stack looks like in these deals? So if someone wants to go out and do a similar model to what you're doing, like in the audience, they want to get into real estate, they want to start with like a small, you know, franchise. What equity are they bringing to the table? What does your loan look like that they're placing for you?

I think, I think where our business is pretty unique, so I don't want to like muddy the waters too much, but at Zigg, just if you just take Zigg, insert city LLC, because we're really creative with our entity names and we put together that partnership agreement, it's going to look like an LP GP pref-promote split. So do I need to get into the pref-promote education? Sure. So preferred return is basically the return that is promised first in the event that the property makes money. I notice I did not use the G word, the guaranteed word. People are like, oh, so it's like a— so like your preferred return is 7% on this deal and therefore I'm guaranteed to make at least 7% a year. The answer is no, we haven't screwed that up yet, but that doesn't mean it's guaranteed, right?

Nothing's guaranteed. The only thing—

yeah, in taxes. There you go.

Yeah, taxes are, you know, if you're in real estate, you're right.

I'm stepping in what you're dropping. I kind of, I kind of set you up for that one. The preferred return is typically a mid-to-high single-digit number in a real estate investment that an LP agrees to. And when cash flow comes out of the property, it is paid to service that first and then any dollars that come in above and beyond that, which is really the business that I'm in, the fees and all that crap, like interesting, keeps the lights on, whatever. But the real business that I'm in and that we're in at Zig is the promote, which is essentially as true of alignment as you can have with your investors. And so let's just use a round number, you know, if the pref— if the preferred return is 7%, and the amount of equity in the property is $100,000 total. So we got 10 friends to put in $10,000 each and the preferred return is 7%. You know, the first $7,000 that comes in in that year goes to pay Hannah her 7% return, Aaron his, you know, Jim Bob, Tina, like whoever else invested appropriately. But then when the property generates, let's say something really exciting, like an 8% return, that extra 1% gets split depending on whatever the promote is. So the promote structure is where sponsors make money, and that money is earned. I don't apologize for our promotes ever, and nor should we.

No.

We have a track record of 70 for 70.

Nice.

Now, mind you, some of those 70 were just bought, so like nobody could screw them up in that time. Yeah. And we put out the money to have the platforms like the Rianamis and the CoStars of the world. We go to the conferences, we— our team makes 300 to 400 calls a week. We— so, and then, and that's just for the opportunity to look for deals. Then you find it, and when you find it, you got to structure it. You got to go raise the equity or put it in yourself. You got to go procure the debt, which is why we align ourselves with great people who know how to do that well, like HB Capital. And then we put together the operating agreement. We got to be responsible when somebody doesn't show up to write that check or whatever it may be. And then you close on the property and you go, you have that sigh of relief. And guess what? The real work starts, right? Then you got to go execute on the business plan, get— make sure the tenants open and paying rent, go hire the right broker to sell the property for you at that time, or get the right broker to refinance it for you. And meanwhile, the LP did nothing. No, they did two things. Yeah, that was number two. And number one is they reviewed the deck or asked 10 minutes worth of questions.

Yeah.

So when our LPs make the types of returns that they've been making, we get virtually zero complaints because they're all like, this works. I wrote a check for $100 grand into your deal, got $122,000 back in a year. Like, no, I haven't had one call me up and bitch and be like, what was your promoting that? I'm like, first of all, like, Yeah. First of all, what did you do? Nothing other than write a check. And I commend you and I'm super appreciative of our LPs and I think they respect what we do and that's why I love working with them because they know, they want to know what's in it for them anyway. They don't really care what we do. And even if they did, they understand that like our team is insanely committed to making this work. We have alignment internally too. And if this doesn't work, it, impedes personally my ability to feed my kids, like the whole thing.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's serious.

It's a lot of work.

It's a lot of work.

A lot of work.

I can tell you have respect for it too, because you made it clear you're like, I'm an investor, like I'm not an operator. Those were your words. Please don't put me on camera saying that because all my investors are going to be like, what the fuck? I thought you were the operator.

But yeah, yeah, no, I mean, it's because I have a portfolio of residential properties that I've owned and operated and renovated and managed and all the things, but I don't have any of my own outright commercial real estate because I went the entrepreneur route of being in the real estate services businesses, right? With brokerage and finance and capital advisory, all of that. But obviously all of my clients are operators. Every single person in my life is an operator. Every mastermind I'm in, they're all operators. Like, I watch their deals. I see what—

certainly you're investing in their deals, though, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Great.

And so I prefer that because I still have— I'm still a real estate professional. I own a real estate brokerage. Like, all I do is real estate, right? So I still get the full advantages of the depreciation without the risk.

Smart.

Without the risk. And then I just risk the money that I put in, and then I can focus on my operating businesses that generate more cash flow, and then I can let them operate. I would have to let go of my businesses to be an operator, and then I would be in the business of operating, which is just a different game. Yeah, right.

And so it's for the schmucks.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's— I mean, it can be massively rewarding and it can be massively painful. Like everything. Like any business.

It's been okay. Yeah, it's been okay. Yeah, I enjoy it.

It's amazing. Actually, that brings me to the next thing, because you said this game is hard and you can get filthy rich doing it, but very few people statistically do. So as we're sitting here in 2026, what does the real estate landscape look like to you for value-add investors or developers out there that are either, yeah, trying to get in this game or in the mud of 2026 right now?

Obviously a very broad question. I fundamentally believe especially those that are chasing any multi-tenant product, whether that be office, industrial, shopping center, whatever it may be, multifamily. There is serious opportunity for any asset type or product type that involves success being tied to the cash flow for long-term holders based on deals that were bought between 2020 and 2022, because the only way to win a deal for a lot of those groups was to overpay on pricing. And they made it make sense based on their cash-on-cash returns, based on the debt that was available to them at that time. And if they haven't sold those properties yet, they are in trouble. And so it's not an opportunity that we're pursuing right now. We, we stay in our lane. We're I, I don't think, I know we're really, really good at what we do. And part of the fundamental decisions that I made when developing the business plan and what we do were to avoid having to think about market conditions too much. Of course, I'm aware of market conditions, right? Like cap rates do this or whatever that means, and they go up or they go down. And we're privy to that. And we're privy to that because we're focused, hyper-focused on what will make our operators successful or not. Talks of a recession come around. That's why we love the automotive repair space. If a recession comes, that business thrives, right? And if it doesn't come, it's still okay because the last thing I'm going to do, or the last thing anybody's going to do if they're running out of money, is go buy a new car. They're going to, they're going to be far more likely to invest the $500 or the $1,200 or whatever it is to keep their 2019 or 2018 car on the road a little bit longer. So we don't really dig into that as much as we probably should. My natural outlook on not just this, but in life in general, is to really not overly focus on things that you can't control.

Yep.

And take radical responsibility for everything that not happens to you, but happens for you. And so as far as like general outlook, I mean, I— that, that to me is an opportunity. And I think there's opportunity whoever's going to be cavalier enough to Here's the dad joke. I'm really sorry. Zig while others zag is, you know, for someone who's got the audacity and the gumption and the skill set that they've developed over time, this is like my natural, like, legal disclaimer to go pursue like office or something.

Right.

And like, like they're so good at it that they can make it work and know those nuances because retail used to get shit talked about it like that. And now retail is the pretty girl at the dance.

Yeah.

So those, those things come and go and those who can navigate those cycles appropriately will get to a point to where they're life-changing wealth.

Yeah.

And that's what makes this place amazing. That's what makes this country amazing, is that you can come here with $1,000 and figure it out. I think it's wonderful to feel that way. Obviously, it's my opinion, right? But it's also naive to not say that people aren't born with different opportunities and, and whatnot, and maybe more difficult for some than others. But the good news is we can all do it.

Exactly. If there's a will, there's a way.

Indeed.

Yeah. Yeah. And so you've talked pretty openly about how brutal the debt markets have been.

Sure.

As everyone knows. Right. So rates, amortization, you know, credit is much tighter. Banks are retrading. Like, there's lots of difficulties. They want really pretty packages, really experienced sponsors. So how have you been navigating the debt markets to continue to— because you've been doing this since 2020, 2018.

Yeah.

Yeah. So you were in the 2020 to 2022 fiasco. And yet you've been able to continue to get debt. You haven't lost on a deal yet. So how have you navigated that? And then how important is it to have— since you're a client of HP Capital, how important is it to have an amazing debt advisor on your side as you're navigating these acquisitions and dispositions?

My story is probably a dream come true for you to hear from a debt broker's perspective. I'm like cringing having to tell it because you're like, here you are already smiling. I understand why. The debt strategy at Zucker Investment Group, it's like kind of embarrassing, but it's totally true. From 2019 to 2022 to 2023-ish was, hmm, the property is in— let's make up a city— Tempe, Arizona. Google Maps, look up the 3 or 4 closest banks that aren't Bank of America, but also like aren't the title loan store. Call them. Hey, I'm interested in borrowing. I'm under contract or about to be under contract on 123 Main Street in Tempe, Arizona. We'd love to make that loan. Here it is, 4%. And that was it. I just go get a couple of term sheets and I just did the deal. It was that easy. And I need to give myself credit for one thing. The one thing that we did get right at that time is I knew based on— and this is the value of mentorship, which I know you're huge on both having them and I'm sure you're off you're kind enough to mentor other people. Some mentors told me, hey, schmuck, this isn't normal. Like, you need to understand these rates. You don't have the right to bitch when your rate's 4.25% as opposed to 4%. If your deal doesn't work, you need to walk away from it. From that standpoint, that was great piece of advice, number one, that I got on a repeated basis from several mentors. Number two, it's like you need to understand that it won't be out there like that. And for one of the rare times in my life, the light bulb went off. I said, okay, this is 5-year debt. This is not going to be like this in 5 years if anything changes, which it's probably going to amidst the pandemic. And, uh, it's, it's, they're probably not, the government's probably not going to be able to give away money for free for too long. So what we did is we negotiated and paid premiums, as I use air quotes, on our debt on the deals, particularly in the ones that we held longer, and even the ones that we sold, which we wanted that optionality of 25 or 50 basis points more than what the rest of the market was doing. But what did we get in exchange? Terms that were 7, 10 years. If the lease was longer than 5 years on the deal, or any lease was, I was fighting tooth and nail. I wanted to be coterminous at a minimum, you know, whatever it may be. And so we've been huge beneficiaries of that. And so like our debt, isn't really maturing in a nasty way on anything that we have like decent leverage on. So that's— those are, those are things that we did right. Unfortunately, the fairy tale story ends and 2023, 2024 come around and certainly well into 2025 and beyond. And I said, the banks aren't giving away money for free anymore and they're really not giving away money at all. This isn't good. I need help. Who? And so the idea— a great book, Who Not How. Came into mind, like, who can help me? And, you know, you run the math and people are like— and this is where, this is where people get so short-sighted in our business. Like, just pay the freight. Like, paying a broker, a debt broker, 1% of your deal, I guess, can come across as sounding expensive. You do a million-dollar deal, you pay 10 grand, I guess. But when you think about that, 10, those 10 G's, in your pro forma compared to what it would be like if you got a 25-year amort instead of a 20, or 6 extra months of IO debt if you're doing a quick flip, or 5% less equity injection. And so you're getting diluted by your LP investors. That value comes back to you like, like I was going to say, 50 times over. It's really infinite with the right debt. And And a great debt advisor, like, and we, we use several programmatically nationwide, HB Capital absolutely being at the forefront of that, can allow you to not to— and the biggest value component that we see is getting access to the debt that we want or the debt that we didn't even know that we had access to by just trying to roll up your sleeves and do it yourself. So it's been pretty transformational. It's also allowed me to scale time to like I'm not the internal debt broker anymore. I'm now the debt overseer. That's far more enjoyable for me because you're a debt operator. Like it's almost like it's sort of like an inverse relationship. Like when you invest with the GP, you're saying you're good at what you do, make me money, we're good. And I'm saying I trust in you as our advisory firm to go out and procure that best debt because I don't have the bandwidth to go call these banks anymore and you have a— you, you meaning your company has a really good take on what lenders will and won't do. And it allows us to be able to spend our time appropriately to go procure the most accretive debt for the projects that we're working on.

Right.

So we are exclusively using debt brokers on our deals.

Love it.

And it's, it's been really helpful.

Yeah. Yeah. And now thinking it's so important because it's do what you do best and hire out the rest. And people that try to penny pinch on everything and do it all themselves, like they will never grow, they'll never scale, nor can you jack of all trades and a master of none, right? Like when you're working with a firm that their brokers, their advisors, all they're doing is building relationships with lenders, doing lender outreach, in the market research of what's going on, like looking at the statistics and the data on rates and amortization and loan products and terms, like going to every single conference and building all these relationships and collaborating as a team to discuss what's working, what isn't working. That is all things you would have to do to get the best rate and terms constantly. Or— and then that's going to take away from your ability to go find deals, like do your business model right, execute on your business.

Yeah.

And so usually when you hire good advisors in anything, whether we're talking debt and equity capital advisory or having a good CPA or having a good operating partner, a good tenant, anything, it's who are the best advisors where that is an investment that I can actually leverage to make myself even more money and buy myself back time. And so just like you said, if you have a good advisor, you invest, you know, you could pay a good CPA to do your tax returns or your estate planning or whatever. You might pay him $100,000 or something, but then it saves you $10 million and people will want to bitch about the $100,000. Like, oh, I don't want to pay that. It's too expensive. Right? And so I always like to lean on how do I get the most amazing professionals around me? And that's what Robert Kiyosaki has been so good at. He's like, I don't do everything. I don't manage anything in my life.

I don't really do anything.

It's kind of great, right? Yeah, I'm kidding. But amazing operator to invest his money in as an LP and lots of deals and does his own deals too. Amazing CPA partner, you know, Tom Wheelwright. Like he's built this amazing group around him to support him and it allows him to focus on the one thing that he does best and then he hires out the rest. And he's been a perfect example of that.

So I'm into that.

Yeah, that's cool. So what, what do you want to accomplish with Zig? Like, where are you going? What keeps you going?

And yeah, I get that question a lot. The beauty of EOS is I don't have to think about about that answer. It's, uh, our 10-year plan is to be doing $250 million in acquisitions by 2035.

$250 million by 2035?

In that year.

$250 million of acquisitions in 2035?

That's right.

Okay, and what are you doing now?

This year we'll do $30 million.

Okay, so that's, uh, what, what year are we at? So that's 6 years. What year are we in?

9 years.

9 years.

Thank God you're my debt broker, not my accountant. Uh, no, it's 9 years. So if you think about But if you think about it, yeah, and that'll be again another classic example of who, not how. We'll have to build out our accountability chart and hire additional and bring on additional great teammates to partner up with in the different verticals to do that. And I've never had more conviction that we'll get there than I do right now. And there's a lot of times where I would say I have a teammate named Hannah too, Hannah Zelinski, who's amazing. And she's our integrator and does our ops. And she would say that I'm constantly pushing, pushing, pushing and thinking about what's next. But there's been a few times where I reflect and look back and think about what we've been able to accomplish in our just over 7-year history. And it's like, yeah, it's nowhere near the big, hairy, audacious goal that we have for down the line. But when you think about where the business started, where it is now, like, there's— I'm like, it's going to happen, right? Which is so exciting. And I get chills thinking about it and talking about it because it's the most exciting thing to be able to get up and go pursue every day.

Yeah.

Like, I can't believe I get to do this. It, like, it, it feels fake. Like, I, I can't believe this is my job.

Yeah. I actually want to talk to you about, uh, your integrator. So Did she come from the real estate industry and how did you find her?

So I had an executive assistant who actually lives here locally. I'm so excited to see her. I haven't seen her in a long time. Yeah, she and her at the time boyfriend, now today husband, moved out here for a job that he got. And her name's Kat, and Kat called me and we met and she put in notice and she said, I'm moving back to Arizona. And my knee-jerk reaction was, I'm heartbroken because she was great. She is great still. And I said, you just got to do one thing. That's it. You got to find your replacement. You're— because she was like, I'm flexible on timing, but like, I'm going to be in Arizona, you're in Charlotte. Like, and I was like, no, I agree it won't work, but let's get, you know, let's come up with a succession plan. And so we started— she started the recruiting process and my first interview was with Hannah Hammond Hammond Hammond. And it went— Kat was in the background in the room and it went so well. And we just looked at each other after Kat and I did, and we were like, damn, she's good. And I was like, Kat, we have to conduct other interviews. Like, you can't— we can't just— like, that's like going on a first date and getting married. That's insane. And you know what the relationship's like with, with an assistant and how, how critical that's got to be, how critical it is to make sure that that works. So I went through and Kat set up the other interviews and went through those interviews and was What are we doing? So one thing led to another, ended up meeting up with Hannah Hammond Hammond, and we've been working together now coming up on 3 years. I think she's going to kill me for not knowing. I really do feel like it's like a work marriage and I'm like, oh my God, I don't know her anniversary.

But is she office manager, executive assistant, or is she actual CEO?

Her original title was EA. We've grown out of that. She is our title is operations manager.

Yeah. Okay.

Her trajectory within our business is the ceiling. I mean, like, there is no ceiling, I should say. Yeah, it's literally the moon.

Yeah, the moon.

And she has never made a real estate cold call. She's never procured a deal. But what she's got unbelievable perspective about is the ability and the desire and the need for those things to happen in order for the business to be successful. And so she takes the same our core values. She embodies our core values like unbelievably well and takes that same level of tenacity to where, like the way that I do as our visionary and like our acquisitions team does in finding deals and does it with everything that she touches— hiring, operations, finance, and anything that really doesn't directly produce revenue for the business. And even in like, this is one thing about EOS, like people are like, oh, you say it's so wonderful. It is like the one thing that we have to do is as owners of businesses is eat humble pie, because especially when your business is first starting out, the owner sits in multiple seats. So like I sit in our marketing seat, for example. So I have to do— I get to do— I don't have to do— I love doing stuff like this. I get to do stuff like this and I have a scorecard metric to where I have to have an ongoing slate of being out there and building the brand like I'm doing right now with the show.

Right.

And so today this is going to occur. I will have one less booked and I'm like, I got to backfill it. And so I have to think and be an employee in those seats and listen to the integrator. So, so and she— her ability to hold me accountable, it's unparalleled. And she does it in a way that's respectful and she does it in a way that is— it inspires me because it's— she does it in her own way with her unique skill set and she appreciates what we all do. Meaning the acquisitions guys and myself. And we appreciate what she does because she does it in a way that's growth-minded, resilient, integrous, which has integrity, positive, and through collaboration, which is our 5 core values.

Yeah, I'm reading that here.

Yeah.

And it's so— core values are so important. I want to hop over to core values, but going back to Hannah, how did you find her? Did you work with a recruiting firm? Did you just post a job?

I'm really good. I don't have a lot of strengths. I'm really good about setting expectations of what I'm looking for and getting the hell out of the way. I think Kat found her either through Indeed or LinkedIn or somewhere. Just general basic blocking and tackling on the recruiting. And I think we just got really lucky and it was just one of those times in life where a serendipitous path crossed. And I think she needed something like we were able to offer and I needed someone like her. And it's been amazing. Her and her husband Zach, they're just wonderful people. And I'm lucky to be able to spend as much time as I do with Hannah Hammond Hammond.

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. And it's so important to have that, that integrator to really execute on the vision, right? I was— I interviewed Pace Morby on my podcast and he's just like, my integrator— can't remember her name, I'm blanking, but my integrator is—

I bet you he can.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he's— he loves her very much. She's integral to the company. But he said, I just dump— I go in the office, whatever, once a week or— it was— the interview was a while ago, so I'm blanking on what he said, but I go in the office once a week and I just brain dump my vision and then they go, they go integrate. Like that's their job. They go figure it out and they make it happen. And I was just like, oh, that's so amazing, you know, to have that person. You have to have that person and you can't have the same role. You can't have the visionary be the integrator because it's too very—

you see it. I hear about it. You know, in YPO it's very common to be on EOS. Anecdotally speaking, I have no idea this is a stat or not. Dude, please, like, don't. Quote on this, but it feels like somewhere between a third and half of YPOers are on EOS, at least in my area of the country. And I've heard of a couple of those stories and you can tell the groups that— and again, this, you know, I don't mean to offend anybody, but I agree with you. I don't see how that works. I think it's tough to have the— it's sort of like a DiSC profile, like, right? Like the high Ds and Is, particularly the Is, which is influential. Like you want everybody to feel good and like you and whatnot and like the systemization and like, no, per EOS this to-do wasn't done, or per EOS you can't do this. Like that, that clashes. So agreed, it needs to be two different integrators.

Like SC, correct? Yeah.

And Hannah— yeah, Hannah's high S, high D actually. So she's very driven. Yeah, she's very, very driven and wants to do well, but like wants to do it in structure and like fit in boxes. And I'm like, we'll figure it out and we'll do this. And I'm throwing out 20 ideas with one or two of them being being really good. And on the integrator thing, it's, it's, it's, it's also— it becomes— I think the integrator is probably the most important seat of any business, but certainly of one that has real size when it comes to the amount of bodies in the business. So our AFC Urgent Care business, for example, we have, give or take, at any time about 80 to 85 employees. And our teammates there are wonderful, and they're healthcare professionals. But our integrator, a guy by the name of Trent Norris, as far as I'm concerned, is a world-class integrator, just like Hannah Hammond Hammond Hammond. And he does an amazing job of being able to articulate what he needs to the CAs, our center administrators, and to the teams in the clinics, like the hourly receptionist or the hourly medical assistant and the provider team. So his ability to do that and also run and lead our leadership team with the ownership group, Like, that's— I have so much respect for that role. Yeah, because I don't— I mean, I'm sure I could do it. Maybe, maybe I could. I don't think I would do it as well as they do, meaning Hannah and Trent. And I certainly don't want to do it. And I don't know if they, you know, you'd have to ask them. And I don't think Hannah wants to do what I do either. Like, I don't think she would go start, you know, a commercial real estate company. And knowing that all the risks— like, I know I give her the heebie-jeebies. I'm like, holy shit, we're going to do that. I'm like, yep, let's go. Buckle up. It'll be fun.

Yeah. So, um, I don't know, have you seen that, uh, AI thing on Instagram or socials where it says something like, business is too risky, and then it's this guy, and then it says me, and then it's this guy jumping out the glass building of like a high-rise, and he's— have you seen that?

No, but it's awesome. Yeah, please do. It sounds like, it sounds like it's like the, uh, like, oh yeah, we'll build the plane while we're in there.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

That's me.

He's just scaling the building, running full force. So it's pretty funny. I think I shared it on my story. Um, yeah, it's fine. So how— speaking of YPO, because I'm huge into masterminds and networks, that's, you know, my, my not secret sauce of building relationships and how I've— I believe in who, not how, right? You have to have— you have to know who is the right person to move the needle in the direction of your goals. You don't have to know how to do everything. And so just like you said, who is that person? So How has YPO played a role in your success and your growth? And like, how important is it to be around? And because people will— again, back to the paying the 1% for an advisor, right? People will be like, I don't want to spend $50 grand a year on a mastermind or $100 grand or $20 grand, or there's different levels, different masterminds, right? But how impactful has that been for you and your growth?

Putting words— it's very rare. I don't know what to say. And even if I don't know what I'm talking about, I feel like I know what to say. The impact that YPO has had on my journey has been instrumental. I know in my soul, like, yeah, understatement of the year, but like, I have to say that because not everybody knows that. And the, the major power of it has been— and it's just like anything else, you have to put effort into it, meaning you got to be a part. Like, there's different networks that you can be in. And then there's— and but the most impactful part of YPO for most people, and myself being included, is what's called a forum. And it's a group of people that's typically on the low end 6 and on the high end 10 people that they're— you confide with them for anything and everything that you would need. You meet with them monthly in person for 4 to 5 hours at a minimum, with a couple retreats a year. When you peel back the onion, like, that's real time. And they all have the same. They have a lot in common with you in the sense that they're typically either an entrepreneur. There's 3 categories of people in YPO. They're family business, entrepreneur, or hired gun. Hired gun example would be, you know, I worked at McKinsey and worked my way up and eventually became the president of a client that hired me. That's a hired gun. Family business being like, I'm third generation, you know, and I'm dealing with the dynamics of my grandfather won't get the hell out of the office and but I know what I'm doing, but like, I feel— I don't feel like I get any respect type of situation.

Right.

And then like another dynamic would be the entrepreneur who's like, I have— I didn't know I needed an HR policy when I got to 120 people. This isn't good. I'm getting sued.

Yeah.

And I'm just making up random examples. And so being able to have your forum to be able to confide with on things from that all the way to like how to raise good children, you know, for me, like it was extremely critical that I have women in my forum, which is in Southern Seven, which is the chapter I'm in. You know, you're talking about the Southern Seven, Southeast 7 states in the United States minus Florida. So you're— there's some good old boys. Like, I'm just going to put it out there. Love you guys, but there's some good old boys. And so it was critical for me to have women in my forum because I have a daughter and I'm no longer married. So my ex-wife and I, she's wonderful. She's a great parent, great mom, great person, all the things. But I wanted to be able to have the vantage point of a driven, successful woman's perspective to be able to, and someone else to confide with for the inevitable coming up. Because I don't know what it's like to be a girl. Right. So, and that, and I say that nervously, but like the amount of care that I have and like love for my daughter is indescribable. And I just want to be the best that I can be. And it's no different than going to a conference or a mastermind to become the best entrepreneur or agency provider in commercial real estate or whatever it is that you can be. But when emotions are involved like they are with me and how much I love my kids and the major factor of never doing it before and really not knowing what the fuck you're doing, you really want to be able to confide. So it's everything and everything in between. So it's sort of like a— it's like a mixture of It's like a board of directors for your life coupled with therapists who know what you're going through.

Mm-hmm.

And I know there's better descriptions of Forum out there, but that's, that's how I look at it.

Yeah. No, it's so important. You build such amazing bonds with these people and they become true advisors and you feel there's a different level of security. Cuz when we are entrepreneurs, it feels so unsafe and it feels so lonely. And then there's so many unknowns and uncertainties and like you're always walking a path that you haven't walked before. You know, we're trailblazing into the dark crevasses of—

See, like that part to me doesn't— that part to me doesn't like— I don't, I don't get fazed by that. To me, what the biggest— Gary Vaynerchuk said this once and it's really resonated with me. People think entrepreneurship is about being the boss and setting your own schedule and having people work for you. It's the total opposite. It's never being off. It's survival. And you work for your employees, you work for your teammates, right? I cannot begin to tell you. It's top of mind for me right now, going through crazy stuff with the different companies I'm involved in. It's never really about like, how are we going to figure it out? It's always about what are we doing to ensure that the who's, the people, are being developed and feel like that we're you know, you've got your problem children that, you know, probably aren't in the right seat. Again, EOS is great about helping sort of flush those things out. And then also, but like when you're paying attention and sort of solving those issues, are you giving enough love to the people who are performing well and doing exactly? Because that's the biggest concern you may have because you don't want them to leave. So I would say, I would say from that standpoint, that's, that's like, I guess I've like become numb to that. Yeah, because I've put myself in some crazy situations over the last 7 years. But it sounds like that. It sounds like that's something that, that maybe you've had to contemplate quite a bit.

No, I just think having that group of friends and advisors that have walked where you're walking in some way makes it just feel less lonely, like as you go down, because right as the CEO, your job is to solve all the problems that no one else can solve.

Yeah.

And so like in your company, right? And so when you have that group of advisors who have either already been where you're at or are exactly where you're at or have their own experience, then they can just help be alongside you and you can— they can help you solve those problems or at least feel heard because you can't always vent to your team, right? You have to, you have to have that group of people. And it's hard because when you're a successful entrepreneur, you know, your family may be very different than you and you can't really go— like, I can't go vent to my dad about what I'm dealing with who works at a, you know, pawn shop. Like, it's just not— yeah. So the masterminds, that's what's been the best for me is just one, the access to who is the right person. This is the problem I need to solve. Who's the right person to solve it? And you have that whole network to help you. And then also the friendship of, okay, you've been here, I've been here, like, what can I learn from you? What can you learn from me, etc.?

So yeah, there's a line: don't go into business with your friends, go into— go become friends with people you do business with.

Yeah.

And what, what the beauty of YPO or any other group that like it, you know, there's EO, there's Tiger 21, there's masterminds, like tickle, whatever tickles your fancy. The, the key about what makes them so special is that there's zero expectations to have to do business with those folks, but there's the relatability and the like-mindedness to be able to have like that vulnerable conversation. Like, I don't know what to do and You know, using the dad that works in the pawn shop example, like, like, I can't confide in them. Or, you know, I, you know, maybe, or if you're super successful and you have kids, like, how do I, like, provide a great life for my kids with also, like, teaching them how to develop a work ethic? Because my work ethic is ultimately how we got to a point to where my kids can go on the yacht or the private jet or the crazy shit that people do with their kids because they want to enjoy their life and enjoy those experiences with their kids, not have to compromise it. But like, so just being able to confide with other people who don't have anything in it to gain other than just helping, that's it. It's quite the blessing.

Yeah, it is. Well, cool. Well, thank you. Okay, so I'm going to end here with rapid-fire questions.

Bring it.

And School of Hard Knocks style, my guy James, I love him.

I mean, how cool was that that you were on there?

Thanks.

Like, when I told people I was coming on the show, I was like, she got interviewed by School of Hard Knocks, which makes me like one degree of separation from being really cool.

He— thank you, that's sweet. He's awesome. He's super cool. I was really fortunate. He, um, yeah, said he's gonna be in town and had me on the show, and then I got to drive him to his next stop.

And I love that.

Yeah, it was, it was really cool. Uh, he's just cool. It's crazy. He's an amazing interviewer. Like so good. And I wish I was as good as he is.

But you're, you're doing okay.

I'm so tired right now. I'm like, I can't even think straight. I thought it was really—

she's really excited to talk to me today.

Yeah. So excited.

Yeah.

Couldn't wait.

There you go.

I mean, that's what I love to do. I love talking to amazing people, especially our clients who we can really help win together.

AKA, you have to talk to me.

Yeah, exactly. But no, just always learning, hearing new ideas, hearing experiences, hearing failures, growing together. Sharing with the world. Like, part of my impact and my mission is to help rise other people, like help everyone reach their highest potential.

The joy is in giving.

Yeah. So I love it more than anything. I would do this all day, every day. I need a COO so I can do more of it.

But we'll talk about that. Don't worry.

All right. So how old were you when you became a millionaire?

28.

That's pretty impressive. What's the best piece of advice you've ever heard or received?

The only bad decisions I've ever made are when I didn't follow my gut. So I don't know who told me to follow my gut, whoever you are.

Maybe your gut.

Hey, that was well done. No, that's good. Don't go into friend— don't go into business with your friends. Go into business with— go become friends with people you do business with is good. But yeah, I would say any, any decision, go with your gut.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What's the number one thing you attribute your success to over anything else?

My why.

That's on my list.

We'll get there.

What's your why?

First degree of separation away removed from it. But it's crazy to me that in the '40s there was a world where people were enslaved, and even more, you know, yeah, I mean, in the 1940s where people were enslaved based on nothing other than the fact that they were gypsy or the vast majority of the case they were Jews. My grandparents were included in that, and they figured out a way to survive Auschwitz and eventually immigrated to Canada. How did they survive? Why? My grandfather was a commodity that the Nazis valued because he was able to sew. So he was only kept alive because he was able to make Nazi uniforms. Upon survival, which I don't know all the particulars to, I know that my grandmother entered the scene at that point. They figured out a way to end up after, you know, after making it and then ending up in a refugee camp and then eventually making it to Canada. My grandfather walked around to different factories and said, hire me for 2 weeks, please. I'll work for free. I can sew. I think he went into one, did it. They said, we really can't afford you, whatever. Second one he went into, they said, you're good, we'll keep you. You. He worked his way up in the business to a point to where they felt like they couldn't lose him. And he eventually, after being reeled in and saying, don't go on your own, stay here, we'll pay you well, whatever it is, he eventually went out on his own. And my grandparents had 5 kids, uh, one of which being my dad. He's the middle of the 5, and he was the first one to go to college. And upon making it to college, he said, okay, I've been afforded an opportunity. And college was basically at the time I think it was actually free and still basically is free in Canada. So he made it through and studied and worked his ass off and became a doctor. And because he had an education and the skill set, he's like, I got to get to— I got to get to the land of opportunity. And in 1984, he ended up in Charlotte. One, two, skip a few. Him and my mom have my sister and I, whatever. And here I am in the mid-'90s. A kid who goes to an unbelievable school in an unbelievable market. I mean, you know, read an article, Charlotte, explosive, great place, like one of the best cities to live, fastest growing cities to live, you know, white collar jobs everywhere, whatever. So I'm just like bebopping around, my naive little dumbass. And you peel that back. My grandparents, I knew these people. I touched, I felt, I love them. They— my grandfather, I'm 6 feet. My grandfather was 5'4". He had a tattoo on his arm. I knew this man. He's no longer with us. My grandmother's no longer with us, but I knew him. He made it through 5th grade educationally. He only made it to 5'4" because he was malnourished. Wow. Yet he spoke 6 languages. Yet he figured out a way to start a business. Yet he figured out a way to build this beautiful family despite all of his family being killed. And I get to be born here. My parents paid for my education. My dad paid for my education. I walked out of college with no debt and I'm going to do something average. Fuck that. There is— for that door to be cracked the way that it was and for me to not only gently nudge it open but run the hell through it to build an amazing business that sets up people for opportunity for them to succeed and for them to be able to go provide wealth and eventually philanthropy and whatever it is that makes them excited to give back moving forward, that like, that's it. That has to happen. Yeah, there's, there's no, there's no mediocrity. Is not interesting. It's, it's unacceptable. It's, it's, it's not gonna happen. So that's rule number one. And then rule number two is I have to figure out a way to pass that message along to my kids because they didn't know my grandparents. They didn't see it. They didn't— there wasn't a little short guy with spoke broken English with a strong Yiddish accent. Like, that was my grandfather. They didn't see that. So I now have— so my job is— that's my challenge, is like, go figure out how to champion your last name, your heritage, and turn it into making your family proud and making— I mean, as cliché as it sounds— making the world a better place.

Yeah, that's so beautiful. And that why is so important. And just like you said, I mean, it would be an insult to your family, right, to not carry that torch forward.

That's right.

And honor and respect what your grandfather went through and pass that along through your generation.

Just— I tell everybody who starts at Zig or who's interested in Zig and working at Zig, this business is hard. It's simple, but it's very hard. And if you're just doing it for the money, don't do it right, because there's jobs, you know, there's careers, especially those who come work with us straight out of school, and tell them your friends are going to make double you and you're going to work twice as much. So you have to be— and that can get old quickly. You can fade out after a couple of months or a couple of years if you're just thinking about money or getting to the happy hour on Thursdays for Thirsty Thursday or whatever. But you have a deeper why. That's, that's ultimately what it's going to take, what it's going to— what needs to be there in order for you to do what it's going to take in order to be successful and make it past the 81% attrition rate that people in 2 years in production, commercial real estate or less, have.

Yeah. If you could leave one message to the younger generation, what would it be?

Follow your gut. And I don't know if this is specific to this generation or if it's more of a macro issue that we have in our environment, but this whole follow your passion advice that we get as students or adolescents, incomplete. It's not bad. You do need to be passionate about what you do, but it also needs to be something that can also feed yourself, right? It's like, I know maybe there's someone out there who's like obsessed with badminton. That's cool. I don't know how much the world's top 50 badminton players make, but I, I don't know if it feeds their families or not. So gotta have both of those things, right? And the any and anything worth doing is and doing well has got to be difficult. So you stick and stay and it'll pay.

That's good.

There you go. Yeah, you can take that one with you.

The pursuit of excellence versus the pursuit of fulfillment. They, they're two separate pursuits and you don't have to blend them into one. You have to be passionate about what you do, of course, to sustain what you're gonna have to go through to be successful. But you can also have things that are fulfilling, like me riding horses, right? I didn't pursue a career in riding horses, I like to have that as a hobby, something I do for fun that fills my cup, but I'm passionate about my entrepreneurial endeavors and all of that too, even though it's a different love than I have when I go to the barn and ride my horse. So yeah, it's important to have those two separate pursuits and you don't necessarily have to blend them together.

Amen.

All right, last question. If you could send one text message to your 25-year-old self, what would it say?

There's a story of my aunt who's a pediatric dentist. She's actually has done very well for herself, had a wonderful career. But she was— there was a point where she went to my grandfather one time and said, I'm frustrated. My friends are going out on dates and having fun on the weekends, and I'm in the library. I come always in the library. Like, why? Why does it have to be like this? And my grandfather, he again, thick Yiddish-Polish accent, like whatever it may be. Just looked at her and said, pay now or pay later. So to the 25-year-old, most of the 25-year-olds don't have children, don't have as many commitments. Go the extra mile now because it will set you up for being able to do whatever the hell you want when you're 40, 50, and beyond.

Love it. Pay now or pay later.

Pay now or pay later would be the text.

Drop the instant gratification and build something meaningful.

Amen.

So cool. Well, thanks for coming on. I'm excited for the Open and all the things. And what's a way anyone, if they want to learn more about what you do and your projects and things like that, how can they reach you?

Yeah, our website, ZuckerIG.com, and I'm on Instagram, LinkedIn. Those are the two most active places that I am.

I thought his last name was Zuckerig. It's ZuckerIG. Zucker Investment Group.

Yeah, exactly. Somebody took Zig.com, so we had to do that.

Bummer.

Yeah. Hannah Hammond.

Well, awesome. Thanks for coming on the show.

Thank you for having me.