Legendary Leader: Greg Williams with Harvey Mackay

Hello, ladies and gentlemen, I'm Cliff Jones, co founder and managing partner of Harvey McKay Academy. And if you're watching this on YouTube or catching it on the Street Smarts podcast, Harvey McKay Street Smarts podcast. We always appreciate subscribing and giving us a little love in terms of following us and liking us. So thank you. Got a fantastic program. Harvey McKay, founder and chairman of $100 million McKay Mitchell Envelope Company. Began at age 27 buying a failing manufacturing company and transforming it into what it is today. One of the leaders in this industry. Written seven straight New York Times best selling books, three of which hit number one including Swim with the Sharks Without Being Eaten Alive. Sold over 10 million books in 46 language 80 countries. And two of Harvey's books were recently named by the New York Times as two of the most among the most 15 inspirational books of all time. Harvey's also a nationally syndicated columnist with weekly articles appearing in a hundred newspapers with circulation of more than 10 million. And we also have with us today Greg Williams, the master negotiator and body language expert, professional speaker, member of National Speakers association, successful negotiation coach for more than 30 years. Also, Greg is an author of the best selling book Afraid no More. Greg, you've got a highly acclaimed audio series entitled how to Negotiate youe Way to Success and a new book with a foreword from Harvey McKay himself. Negotiating with a Bully. Gentlemen, welcome. And I want to start with Harvey McKay. Harvey McKay, you are a master under yourself when it comes to negotiation. Let's start with one particular street smart that you would suggest for our viewers and listeners when it comes to learning to be a master of negotiation.

Well, first of all, good morning, nice to see you, Greg. Also, thank you very much, Cliff. And I've been looking forward to this eagerly. Looking forward to this. In answer to your question, what if I told you I have 6, 7, 8 number ones? I'll give you maybe my favorite number one. And that would be. It's very simple, very effective. They don't pay off on effort, they pay off on results. And this is what will get your results. The single biggest tool in any negotiation is the ability to get up and walk away from the table without a deal. Now if you do that, you better know what you're doing and how to walk away from the table. Otherwise you better be a doggone good swimmer. But what's really important here is when you say no and when you leave the table or hang up the phone again, you don't kick the tires, you don't insult the person you're negotiating with. You never tell a mother that her baby is ugly. You just say, you know, this is. I can't afford this. This is the reason why it looks like it won't work out. Whatever it is. Myriad of reasons why you can use to walk away. But I will tell you, over my hundred years of experience on this earth, really, the telephone rings, all right? Many, many more times than it doesn't ring. So if it isn't an absolute, unequivocal must that you have this particular win in this negotiation, you get up and walk away.

Let's take it back to you. And what would you say about the ability for a negotiator to walk away from the table?

Well, Harvey's 1,000% correct. Because unless you can walk away from a deal, you will position yourself such that you might accept a lower deal or a less than stellar deal than you otherwise could have achieved. Plus, that, to add on to what Harvey said a moment ago, walking away in the correct manner leaves the door open for the possibility of the negotiation to continue. And thus, you do not insult the person, oh, my gosh, I would never negotiate with you again in life. I don't know why your mom even had you. Yada, yada, yada. Because, as you know, my motto is you're always negotiating, that what you do sets the scene, the table, as it were, for future negotiations. So you always have to be very cognizant of how you exit any negotiation. And no, for the moment, is just that. It doesn't mean no permanently.

Well, there's a certain element when it comes to being authentic. We hear a lot of sales trainers preaching the takeaway. And I think it's fair to say a lot of younger salespeople learning the art of negotiation come across as inauthentic. And to your point, Greg, in being inauthentic, they're unable to keep that door open. So, Harvey, let's take it back to you and talk about a couple of your other more powerful street smarts or insights that our viewers and listeners can apply today.

In other words, you want another number one. Right. Number one. And I should have said at the outset, I couldn't be more sincere when I say this to you, Greg. Congratulations on a brilliant career. I mean, you've been my guest speaker at one of my academies. Obviously, I'm familiar with your work, and I salute and applaud again your concepts and philosophies. And in the real world, which I would call street smarts, they do work. Okay, back to. Back to number one. Another number one. This one, of course, I've used all my life. And all the listeners out there can use this tomorrow morning, even this afternoon, if here it is. If you can afford to buy your way out of a problem, you don't have a problem. So as you go through life, all you do is say, every time a problem comes up, can I afford to buy my way out of this problem? And if you can, of course you don't have a problem. I could sit here and use the whole program again. Plethora of ideas and results that I've gotten on that, but it really, truly does work. One very, very quick example. I'm sure people remember the Miracle on Ice. Herbie brooks and the U.S. team when they beat the Russians, I had a special customer, was told I had good seats. What happened to me? I get in there, and I'm all the way up in the nosebleed section. I'm embarrassed. My customer. I don't know what to do. I said, wait here. I rushed down to the first five rows down on the ice, I saw two kids in high school talking to each other, sitting in great seats. I told them, look, I've got a little bit of a problem. My seats are up there. Okay, might you want to change? And I will sit in your seats. I have a very important customer. And then I pull out a $100 bill. Done deal. They were happy. I was happy, and the Americans won the game.

Greg, you want to talk a little bit about helping get both parties what they want in a way that the negotiation successful for everybody?

Yes, I definitely do. And first of all, Harvey, I want to thank you for those very kind words that you said a moment ago about me, my career, and you are, sir, a great part of the inspiration that has allowed me to actually foster and create the type of career that I been able to amass. Because I have literally modeled you to a degree, going all the way back to the 80s when you first wrote swim with the sharks without being eaten alive. The McKay 66 as an example is an excellent way to gather background information on someone with whom you'll even be negotiating with. So I say all of that to simply say, I thank you very much, sir. The giving that you have bestowed upon the world is something that is definitely a benefit to everyone throughout the world, and I thank you very much for that. Now, Cliff, please, after saying that, paraphrase your question for me.

Yeah, so what Harvey was just describing is, you know, being at the Miracle on Ice when the US Beat the Russians, and having. Having this expectation for himself and his customer to have some of the best seats in the house, which is typical of Harvey. And it didn't work out that way. So Harvey was very innovative and creative, another one of his skills. And in the end, the customer was happy. And Harvey, I'm presuming the negotiation and winning that customer was successful. So Greg, talk a little bit about how negotiation and negotiators can be good for both parties.

Well, first of all, you should always seek a win win outcome. Win win in this particular situation is whatever that person that you're negotiating with sees as a victory for him or herself too. In the case that Harvey cited a moment ago with the client at the hockey game, think about this. Had Harvey not had a hundred dollar bill in his pocket, he would not have been able to negotiate as effectively with the kids that he actually said, hey, you know, I'll give you a hundred dollar bill. Therein lies where as a negotiator you always have to be prepared for any situation that will come your way. Had Harvey had credit cards, he could have said, well look, I'll give you a tab or put it on my tab or something like that. He would have been less likely to induce those bills people to actually move to a higher seat. And thus not only do you have to be prepared as a negotiator for what comes your way, but you always have to create situations whereby you have the outcome that someone expects to receive at your best interest. Now that's not to say you have to subjugate your interest to theirs, but you have to make sure they're satisfied with the deal when negotiating such that they don't walk away from the whatever it is that the two of you agree with. Harvey is a. I shallowly borrow the title from Harvey the master negotiator. I have a lot of good negotiation skills, but my gosh, people can learn so much more about negotiations from Mr. Harvey McKay for sure. Definitely.

Well, back to your point on the McKay 66 and Harvey's creative ability to pay attention to the interests and family members, all the attributes of a prospective customer or existing customer, that allows Harvey to follow up on an ongoing basis. Because I think we'd all agree that the art of negotiation is not a one time process, especially when it comes to keeping happy customers. So Harvey, is there one other particular street smart that you would highlight for our viewers and listeners as it relates to being a better negotiator?

Shirley, let me, if I may put it in reverse just for a moment or two and say to our listeners, which I should have said maybe at the outset of the program. And that is as follows. Every single solitary person listening again to this broadcast, to this video, has to know one thing. We're all salespersons, every single one of us. And I don't care if you're in human resource. You engineer, teacher, doctor, lawyer, doesn't matter what, okay? Whatever your endeavor is, you're a salesperson. Why do I say that? Because from the moment you get up in the morning to the moment you go to bed, what are you doing? You're negotiating, you're communicating, you're persuading, you're influencing, you're selling ideas. Now, if that's not a salesperson, I don't know who is or what is. So I want all those people to keep this negotiating in its proper perspective, which is right at the top of the charts. Every single solitary day. Now, back to another one of my favorite negotiating skills, and I don't know where to start. I could sit here 247 around the clock and keep coming up with these aphorisms that I've made up over a period of a lifetime. But I would say another key one is as follows. You could never, never negotiate anything unless you know what the market is. And let me just give you a perfect example. Hypothetically, let's just say that Greg, okay, is my father, and I'm a superstar basketball NBA futurist, and all of a sudden, I graduate college, and now the pros are after me, and there's tens and tens of millions of dollars being thrown away. Now, let's just say that Greg, happens to be his life's work, of course, is a negotiator. All right, fine. Now, he can save. If I sign a $40 million contract, we can save, the two of us, 5% of 40 million. Hey, that's a lot of dollars. Okay, so why should we go hire an agent and pay him or her 5%? Well, I'll tell you why. Because Greg's been working on a different kind of negotiation for 10, 20, 30 years, where the agents go to work every day. They've seen hundreds and hundreds of contracts. So you won't be able to recognize a good deal when you see one if you don't know what the marketplace is. Very key, very important, very critical.

Phenomenal point. Hey, Greg, in your 30 years of coaching and speaking and helping people become better negotiators, to Harvey's point, on everybody being in sales, really negotiating, whether we know it or not, is there a particular kind of professional or person that you found has a particular issue or obstacles with learning to practice the art of negotiation at the level you guys do?

Well, it actually, I would say more than a particular individual. It stretches across, I would say, societies. Some societies just don't negotiate as part of the norm of that particular society. And thus, people will just readily accept whatever someone says, as the bottom line is, I have to. This is my best offer. Or some people won't even challenge a negotiation effort at all. They'll just accept whatever is thrown at them. And to Harvey's point about salespeople, not only salespeople being negotiators, but everyone being a negotiator, that's how people need to start looking at themselves. And again, to the point that Harvey just made a moment ago, there's specificities that some folks have when it comes to negotiations that others don't. And thus, you cannot link everyone in the same realm of, oh, well, he negotiates, she negotiates, so they both must be good negotiators or whatever. Whenever you're looking for a negotiator, you need to look for specificity, because people will always have greater insights about a particular discipline than another. And that's one thing that you need to understand not only about negotiating more, but also how to negotiate better. When you're in any negotiation with someone that's lending assistance, I'd have to say.

That curiosity and the courage to ask questions, and that's developed over time through practice and training and coaching. That curiosity and that confidence to ask questions. I can tell you, if I were a shopkeeper in some corner of the world where negotiation culturally is expected, I would not want to be up against Harvey McKay. Harvey, what do you say about the ability to negotiate in a successful way, no matter what the transaction is? Because you have some phenomenal stories you've told over the years that I've heard.

Well, we were talking just moments ago. Greg had mentioned that the 66 question customer profile. And that, of course, if I can explain to the audience, because I guess that's kind of my whole life, and it has been ever since age 21. And I entered the workforce as an envelope salesperson. And that is as follows. My father got ahold of me, age 21, and he said, every person you meet the rest of your life, okay, goes into a Rolodex file, little bit of bottom on the back of the card. And now, here's the key. Find a creative way to keep in touch. So I just finalized that in the 66 questions. I wanted to know about every account, every purchasing manager, he or she, that I'd be calling on. I was going on 300 accounts, and therefore I had 300 people in my Rolodex file. Well, then I carry that forward to negotiations in every part of my life. If, Cliff, I don't know you and I want to buy your company, all right, or I'm going to sell my company to you, I will go out of my way to what I call dig your well before you're thirsty, which is one of the titles of one of my seven books. And I will try to find out everything I can about you. I Want to know 66 things about you if you're a customer. So every time I call on you, I add to that list. But first, negotiation. I don't know you. I've got to find out things. I want to know where you went to school, and I'll do my best. Want to know if you're married, if you have children. I want to know what your political persuasion is. I know where you take your vacations. Want to know how many jobs you've had. All of these things I can find out, which is a totally different subject than what we're talking on right now. So that 66 question customer profile carries over to negotiations, very importantly. And the moment I walk out of any negotiation, I don't start my car. I start dictating into my iPhone every single thing. I read the desk, I read the walls. I remember what the receptionist told me after I was asking questions. Everything. You forget 50% of what you hear. Four hours. So you have to know that Pale ink. Sorry, but I talk in aphorisms, so I write how to live my life. Pale ink is better than the most retentive memory, which of course means write it down. So you want a record, and I'm sure Greg agrees with me. Once you walk out, you debrief yourself of every single negotiation immediately.

Greg, let's take that a little bit further when we talk about the McKay 66, which is probably the number one resource Harvey MacKay Academy members choose to download and apply to their life. How does doing your homework and your research in advance of a particular negotiation make a difference for the negotiator?

Well, as an example, some of the components of that 66 list consists of knowing who the friends of the individual with whom you're negotiating, knowing what it is that they do, knowing where it is that they go, knowing more about that particular individual than almost the individual knows about himself. Because we forget some of the things that have occurred in our life. And that becomes information that you can use as leverage in a negotiation. Now, I'm not necessarily saying it has to be used in a negative manner, but the more information and insight you have about an individual, the greater the opportunity you have to bond with that individual and or use those that individual looks up to to support you and your efforts. So again, the more insight you have, the greater the opportunity to come to a win, win negotiation situation. And by doing that, you not only allow the deal to have a greater chance of staying closed, but at the same time you have a greater chance of prolonging, extending the relationship that you establish with that individual. Because, as I always say, you're always negotiating.

Harvey, let's take it back to you. Is there another particular street smarter insight relative to helping our viewers and listeners become more confident, effective negotiators, whether salespeople or people from any walk of life?

Well, surely I remember talking about this, and I like to make up all my own aphorisms and then I guess, you know, see what's the small print under the small print in the aphorism and then put it to work. So I sat on our fraternity floor once again, 100 years ago when I was joined a fraternity, I said the following, which applied to the subject we're talking about when a person with money meets a person with experience. I want to repeat that. When a person with money meets a person with experience, here's what happens. The person with the experience winds up with the money, and the person with the money winds up with the experience. And so what I'm saying is you can't start at the top and work up. Cream doesn't rise to the top. It works its way up. And so, boy, look out. When you're in your first negotiation and you're going up against an old grizzly okay, that might have been around for 10, 20, 30, 40 years, negotiating things, you have to just be aware of that. And that's the real world.

Greg, I want to talk a little bit about your new book, Negotiating with a Bully. We've all run up against bullies in school, in business, all walks of life. So is there one or two particular things you'd like to highlight when it comes to negotiating with someone who's particularly tough, maybe even a little bully? Ish.

Yes. Yes, there is. And it goes right back to the McKay 66 list. Again, understanding through the gathering of background information, what is the source of motivation that's causing that individual to behave in the manner that he behaves in? If you Understand what his source of motivation is. You know, at least how you can then go about trying to alter his perspective. Is he acting out simply because he wants to impress someone else? Well, if that's the case, how might you solicit that entity's support to help you negotiate with this particular individual? What might you do to actually thwart the bully's efforts? And what happens if you stand up to the bully at a particular point in time versus another? So the timing of when you choose to move on that person or not move on that person is a valid insight. And I talk about all of that in the book. And by the way, I want everyone to know that Harvey McKay was the one that forwarded this book for me. And again, my goodness, I just. You see me beaming because I don't want to be overly effusive, but I'm just so grateful for all the insights that Harvey has given me throughout the years.

Well, thank you for that, Greg. You're very generous, very kind. And, Harvey, let's. Let's talk in the context of, you know, whether you're a school kid facing a bully in the schoolyard or you're in the workplace, wherever you are, how do you deal with the toughest of negotiators to get what you want?

Well, let's go back to another philosophy. Make decisions with your heart, and you'll wind up with heart disease. And so emotion is so. And I'm sure Greg agrees with me, emotion plays such a strong part and role in any tough negotiation. And you have to not only, of course, control your own emotions, but more importantly, study the emotions of the person across the table from you, and then apply whatever you learned. And also, you can't learn anything when you're talking, so you have to be a fabulous listener in negotiation. So I'm sure Greg will absolutely agree with me. You apply the emotion, emotional intelligence, if you want to call that whatever, and you apply the 66. You apply, don't let you know. Don't make the decision with your heart. Then you're prepared to really stand up and do all the other things we've been talking about, like maybe walk away from the table.

Well, Harvey, I think one of the best kept secrets when it comes to negotiation, sales leadership, overall leadership, company calls, is McKay Mitchell Envelope Company. I think you guys are selling 25 million envelopes a day, 100 million in sales. You bought the company when you were really just a young, very young man. Today, as chairman of the board at McKay Mitchell, how do you inject your. And Teach your, especially your new salespeople, the art of negotiation because they keep setting records in an industry that seems to be declining. So how do you really affect that at McKay Mitchell?

Well, we start out by a lot of companies have meetings to see if they should have meetings, and that's not the way to win. We have a very aggressive agenda. It doesn't last very long, and it's almost every week. And then we have real live negotiations when we lose an account, not when we win an account. When we lose an account, I want my sales force to know what happened. Not only what happened, but prioritize. And now tell us, what are you going to do about it? Also, when you win an order, win a contract, we want that person to share with all our other salespeople what they did to prepare to win, how they got the result. And then so everyone's learning from real live examples. I think that's a very practical way to keep our people, again, one step ahead.

Wonderful. Greg, let's talk about you and the context of helping sales professionals, younger people, build that confidence, build that experience, and integrate body language. Because I know you're studying both of us right now. Body language plays a big part when we're sitting either in a meeting or in a virtual meeting like this. So what would you suggest to people as they're learning the art of negotiation relative to body language?

One way to distinguish as to which personality type you're negotiating with is to observe the body language. For example, right now I just leaned back and I am saying with that body language gesture, okay, I'm comfortable right now, I'm at ease, as opposed to me getting literally in your face, indicating possibly that I am trying to intimidate you. Now, through body language and body language signals and signs, one can also use what's known as seven micro expressions to genuinely validate to what degree someone's posture is faked or it's real. There's seven emotional seven strategies, or I should say micro expressions that are unique to everyone on the face of the planet. Fear, anger, disgust, surprise, contempt, sadness, and happiness. If I were to scream right now, more than likely you would jump. You wouldn't think for a moment, oh, wait a minute, I'm in a safe environment, yada, yada, yada. Your reptilian brain would just go into a mindset of, oh, that was something that I should react to. Those are the type of signals that you observe when you're actually in a negotiation or face to face, or if you're listening to someone per the Non verbal signals, how fast do they speak? What words do they use to represent their thoughts? All of that data is input per what's really going on in that person's mind. To what degree do they tilt their head? When they tilt their head. Okay, now I'm in thought mode. That's what that indicates. Multitude of signals and signs you can pick up from when you're negotiating. Salespeople should be extremely astute of not only observing those signals, but as Harvey alluded to earlier, what's in that person's environment. What's in that person's environment is what is important to that person. You pick up on those clues and you can definitely help that person sign the sales order that you put in front of him.

Well, ladies and gentlemen, we're coming to the end of our time with you today. For this interview on the art of negotiation, we've got the master negotiator and body language expert, Greg Williams. Of course, we're with the legendary leader Harvey McKay. Harvey, I want to kind of wind this down with you. Follow up on Greg's point. Body language reading, people being across from the desk in a prospect or customer's office. Is there one particular insight you'd like to leave our audience and listeners with as we wrap up?

Sure, I'll give you one. The first body language I ever learned was many, many decades ago. I'll never forget actually my father in law who said talking about negotiations, he said that when he's negotiating this in the olden days, of course, he said when his opponent, you know, on the other side of the table, if you want to call him opponent, would light up a cigarette, that was a good sign that he was winning because that had to settle down their nervousness. I don't know if you ever heard of that before, Greg, but let me leave you then with one final thought and that is as follows. Okay, I don't know which one I'm thinking about four or five that are mixing in my head. Let's just, let's talk about this one. People go on all their life and they say, what should I buy, what should I sell? That's the wrong question. When should I buy and when should I sell? Timing in life is everything. Write it down, don't forget it. Use it in the real world.

That's wonderful, Greg. I want to thank you very much for being with us. Ladies and gentlemen, if you haven't connected with Greg Williams, the master negotiator and body language expert, you can do so@themasternegotiator.com Greg, did I get that right?

Yes, you did. And there's one more thing that I just want to put out there, as it were, per salespeople or any discipline that you're in. And it's my favorite quote by Mr. Harvey McKay. I keep it literally right at my desk. It says, believe in yourself even when no one else does. Those are words to live by. Those are definitely words to live by, believing in yourself.

Life is a game of confidence. Everything's a game of confidence. I want to thank both of you gentlemen for being with us today. Ladies and gentlemen, if you're not a current member of Harvey McKay Academy, you can get a free membership@harveymckayacademy.com if you're listening to this on the Harvey Mackay Street Smarts podcast, please leave us a five star rating. And if you're watching this on YouTube, subscribe to our channel, share the message with your family and friends because these are the kinds of leaders that we bring to you@harveymckacademy.com Gentlemen, thanks for being with us today.

Bye bye. Thank you, Cliff.

Thank you very much to both you and Harvey.