Dave Asprey | Gratitude, Forgiveness, and Microdosing: The Keys to Deep Healing

I live in Austin and I go to a lot of parties and people say, oh, I'm taking a microdose. Like, dude, you're taking half a gram of psilocybin. That is not a microdose. That is a recreational dose. A microdose is below the level of perception and it's about 5% of a normal dose, maybe 10% for psilocybin. And you might feel a bit more creative, a bit more sparkly, but quite often people are overdosing with microdoses and you can do this every other day. I did a microdose of LSD every day for 30 days, 2 to write a blog post about it years ago. And you will see subtle shifts in perception. People report their creativity goes up. Most of the ultra marathoners, if they're off camera, will tell you they're microdosing LSD when they're going to run 100 miles because it does something for endurance.

Welcome to the Radical responsibility podcast. I'm Dr. Fleet Mahl and I'm excited to guide you on a journey of authentic transformation. In each episode, I'll bring you insights from leading experts to explore trauma recovery, mindfulness practices, positive positive psychology, and innovative breakthroughs in health, wellness and life optimization. This is a space for real conversations that inspire meaningful change, helping you find alignment with the person you were always meant to be. Let's get started.

What if you could harness the power of the mitochondria, your cell's powerhouse, to boost your physical and mental performance? How does psychedelics fit into the puzzle of deep healing and transformation? In this episode we'll we're diving into an eye opening conversation with Dave Asprey, award winning entrepreneur, creator of Bulletproof Coffee and Danger Coffee and father of the biohacking movement. Dave's groundbreaking work has revolutionized health science, helping millions upgrade their mind and body's capabilities through cutting edge strategies and technologies. Together, we'll explore the surprising intersections of biohacking, microdosing and the essential role of integration and in lasting change. Curious about the path to peak performance and expanded consciousness? Let's get started. My name is Dr. Khalid Mall, your co host for this session and I'm really thrilled to be here today with Dave Asprey. Welcome Dave.

It's an honor to be here.

Well, it's an honor to have you and to connect with you. I've been familiar with your work for a long time and we chatted a little bit beforehand. I'm a fan of Bulletproof Coffee and we had a little discussion about the origins of that. So, you know, as a leader in the biohacking space, I wonder if you could start us off by sharing how psychedelics and psychedelic assisted therapy might kind of interface with that world of biohacking. And, you know, I guess we could look at it maybe over the course of this interview and we could address the world of microdosing a little bit, if that fits in. We do often have interviews about microdosing on this. But what's the interface between the world of psychedelic, psychedelics, therapy, and perhaps microdosing, and the kind of world of biohacking is a term for really optimizing our physical, mental, cognitive, emotional capacities.

When I started the biohacking movement back in 2011, I really carefully crafted this definition. And it was the art and science of changing the environment around you and inside of you so you have full control of your own biology. And this came about because I used to weigh 300 pounds. I was a Silicon Valley computer hacker. I was also profoundly unhappy. Anxiety that I didn't even know was anxiety because it had been present since I was born. PTSD from the cord wrapped around my neck. And I went on a path of restoring my health. I've spent about two and a half million dollars at this point on reversing my age. I'm 4.8% body fat, not because I'm trying, but because when your body makes all the energy, it can make you just get lean. And I'm in a better place than I've ever been along the way in that definition of biohacking. Well, if you change the world around you so that it supports your biology, you have more energy because your body, at unconscious levels, is constantly listening to all of the inputs. The light, the time of day, the temperature, the sound, even the electromagnetic fields, the types of interactions you have nutrition. And if we set those up, it's a lot easier to have control of your biology. But the definition incorporates the inner world. It's profoundly important. So there's always been the notion of body where I believe it all starts. And we can talk about why psychedelics do what they do and why breath work or meditation can also get you to these unusual places. So there's body, and then there's mind, and then there's spirit. And biohacking encompasses all three. It just so happens that making a few upgrades to your biology means that it's a lot easier to deal with aspects of mind and to access the realm of spirit. And I've incorporated psychedelics into the conversation since the beginning of the movement. And in 2018. This became a new word in the English language. Webster's added biohacking to the dictionary. And my name's in there, which is the craziest thing ever. The first conference on biohacking was a hundred people 13 years ago. It's 4,000 people now. It's called the biohacking Conference. And last year, we had Joe Dispenza on stage. He said, what does that have to do with biohacking? Well, in the model that I use, there's a hidden operating system in the body that you're not supposed to be able to see. And it's running all sorts of ancient algorithms and ancient programs that are very fast and very dumb, and they're just designed to keep you alive. And this maps directly into transpersonal psychology. And I've had the honor of hosting a breath workshop with Stan Grof, you know, one of the fathers of transpersonal psychology, interviewing Stephen Porges about polyvagal theory and then running the 40 years of Zen My neuroscience called a mystery school or consciousness school in Seattle. And just recently, we added ketamine as an option to that, because even without ketamine, people would say this intense neurofeedback. It's like the best plant medicine ceremony I ever had, but without the plants. So we know we can access these states of consciousness. And some of them are profoundly healing. And different lineages I've studied, including shamanic training, meditation in Nepal, Tibet, that in 1999, I went down to Peru and I sought out ayahuasca. And when I was asking around for it, they looked at me and they said, you're white.

You won't like it.

It's for locals. I'm aware of all of these things, and I've done my preparation and my homework. So I found a shaman and had my first experience before it was a tourist industry. It was actually sacred and hard to find. And I'm very fortunate that I found a quality shaman. My perspective on ayahuasca now, which I've included as one of the things ayahuasca or LS microdosing and things like that, from the beginning of the biohacking movement as one of the paths with ayahuasca, I'm a little concerned that a good shaman acts like a firewall. It's their job to keep the aggressive, masculine component of aya at bay while the feminine earth energy does its healing on you. But if you have an untrained shaman who is unaware of these polarities, I think ayahuasca has the power to install malware to kind of put things in there. So this is one of those things that can be sacred. It also has a risk. Just like Fast Path Buddhism. You might become enlightened in a lifetime. You also might go crazy. So you get to choose your path. And I'm just grateful that I've had a chance to experience a variety of psychedelics with very well educated and prepared people helping me hold space. I also go to Burning man, so it's not like I'm always shaking a rattle or something, but where I ended up. I think this would be helpful for all of our listeners. I'd like to explain the framework for how I think our ego emerges and how our body makes decisions that are unconscious with some good science behind it. And then talk about what psychedelics and therapy do independently and then together. Would that be helpful?

Absolutely. And please go ahead with that. And I just also wanted to offer fame. So we're going to be talking about, you know, the potential here for changes in consciousness and so forth. And you were kind of referencing some of that now, but also in the biohacking sense and some of the things you were describing. I would assume at some point. We're also kind of talking about the epigenetic environment at the cellular level and how we're impacting what we now know from the field of epigenetics, how various genes express themselves, and also the healthy functioning and or rejuvenation of the mitochondria at the cellular level. As we go through the interview, maybe we can sort of bridge these different levels. And talking about that interplay as well.

It'S almost like you read my mind. Maybe those 50 years of practice gave you some magical powers there. So it's exactly where I want to go with it. Let's go back to mitochondria. When I had, in my 30s, chronic fatigue syndrome. I had PTSD and just profound tiredness and anxiety and a profoundly successful career, like trying to balance these two out. I came to a point where I was failing out of Wharton Business School when I was about 31, and I said, I've got to have someone look at my brain. I've tried everything to get healthy. I've tried every diet. I've been a vegan. I've been a raw vegan. I've just done it all. And it was Dr. Daniel Amen's work, who is a 12 times New York Times bestselling author who's done half a million brain scans showing changes in the physical structure of the brain cause a lot of these problems. Where it's not a. What I thought it was was a moral failing or a willpower failing. It was actually a hardware problem in my brain. My brain had been poisoned by toxic mold, and there were holes where there was no metabolic activity. When I went around and I figured out how to repair those, my ability to meditate, my ability to show up, my happiness, my consciousness improved. So quite often what we feel like is a emotional stressor. It's actually a biological stressor. And here's how the model has emerged. All life on Earth is based on mitochondria, or something similar to mitochondria in plants. And our story is from seventh grade biology. Two billion years ago, some cells floating around found these little ancient bacteria called mitochondria, and we incorporated them to be mobile power plants. The reality is that mitochondria were floating around. They found a cell and said, look, a mobile petri dish. We can control it. Let's move in and take over. And they've been in charge of us ever since. And you have more mitochondria than you do cells in your body. They're just ancient bacteria embedded in your cells. And interestingly, you have the most density in your brain cells, the neurons, and in your heart, about 15,000. Unless you're a woman. Women have a hundred thousand mitochondria in their ovaries. So the role of mitochondria is not power plants. They are mobile environmental sensors, and they're small computer nodes. They sense the environment, they ask their friends what's going on in a well defined biological process, and then they decide on the state of things, and then they tell you how to feel about it, and then you think about it and you feel about it, and you believe that's reality. But what they're doing is they're transforming the reality you see based on ancient biological rules. And because I'm a computer science guy who studied and actually taught a lot of engineers how to build the modern Internet, I understand emergent behaviors in a unique way. It also helps that I was once on the spectrum with Asperger's syndrome. So I see patterns differently than a lot of people. And here's the rules. And I think you'll find that these match a lot of what modern day therapists deal with on a daily basis. So here's what a jellyfish, a tree, a human, or a slime mold will do. This is all life on Earth. They follow these rules. And they're all F words, by the way. Number one, fear. If something is scary, run away from Kill or hide, right? So we all know the fight, flight, sympathetic activation, things like that. Well, if it's not scary, then you go to the next F word, which is feed, because famines have killed all things throughout the last couple billion years. So that rule is eat everything. And the third F word, as you might imagine, for all life to stay around for multiple generations, it's not the one fleet that you're thinking of. It's fertility, but fear, food, fertility, in order. All of this happens. And then the next F word is friend, because all life will collaborate with its own species and other species around it, because this is how life works. And the final F word, particularly for humans, is forgiveness. And this is what I teach at 40 years of Zen. And it's a part of biohacking. And forgiveness is the process of not telling someone you forgive them, but the process of letting go of that biological trigger that triggered the first F word. You felt fear. Not because you chose to feel fear, because fear's an emotion, not a thought or logical. But you felt fear because your mitochondria felt fear, because they're an ancient network of billions of little computers trying to figure out if you're safe or not, so they can make you act before you can think. And the evidence I have for this is one of the measures of neuroscience that I love, and it's called evokes potential, or P300. If I clap my hands right now, people who are listening know. Well, he clapped his hands and it took some time for the sound to get to my body. And then I heard it, because that's what we perceive. But if we put electrodes on your head and we measured your auditory processing center, you would see about a third of a second delay before your brain got any signal of a sound whatsoever. This is your mitochondria in your body deciding whether you're allowed to sense that. So their job is to process a reality that is so much bigger and more complex than what we can sense with our little human brains. By the way, our brains are great. They're just very slow. So compared to mitochondria, they're slow. So what that means is there's a third of a second of invisible lost time all of the time, even in this conversation, that we cannot see. And this is when our body decides what to show. This is where trauma hides. And when we do breath work, when we do things like vipassana, or meditating in the dark in a cave and fasting, or when we do psychedelics or in. My primary tool is neurofeedback at 40 years of Zen. And now ketamine assisted neurofeedback. We call it pan psychedelic assisted neurofeedback. All of those are simply ways to allow your conscious mind to access the world the way the mitochondria see the world. And this is a precious state that allows you to go in and edit the fear settings so that you are no longer triggered. It's very different than what you would learn in Buddhism, which is the emotions will arise, recognize them, but don't react to them. Allow them to flow through and then set them aside. This is effective. It's very similar to cbt. You know, okay, I recognize it. I use the power of my thoughts to behave the way I wanted to behave and to make myself happier. The issue is that every single day there's only so much electricity your body can make. And with biohacking, we can teach your body to make more electricity every single day. But if you're wasting half of your thoughts on being afraid of things that aren't really scary or threats, and you waste a third of your thoughts, and studies showed this happens on food. There's very precious space or precious little space for you to have room for love, and you'd have room for personal development and consciousness expansion. And so the path of biohacking is, let's teach your body to not be hungry all the time, and let's teach your body to not be afraid all the time. So instead of allowing the emotions to flow through, let's turn off the thing that's causing you to be afraid, so that the mitochondrial network no longer sees fear when you're criticized. It no longer sees fear when you're alone. It no longer sees fear when there's a difficult conversation with a loved one and that your conscious brain knows, oh, this is it. But the reactivity goes down, so the amount of energy available for presence, for consciousness goes up dramatically. And within the realm of biohacking, there's just a couple things you want to do. Number one, increase electrical output of your cells. Get healthier mitochondria. This creates a sense of peace because the body isn't stressed, because it's working the way it's supposed to work. Once that happens, create more neuroplasticity. And my New York Times science bestseller called Head Strong is kind of the masterclass on how to do that. When we create more neuroplasticity, whether it's via almost every psychedelic, we'll do that very potently. Lion's mane will do it fasting. Will do it. And even exercise to a certain extent will raise a compound called bdnf. So we take people like, let's put you in a precious high energy state, let's put you in a precious neuroplastic state, and then let's do the deep work. And that means you get more results per minute of deep work than you would do if you came in with hunger, with low energy states that are not your fault. It's not a willpower trying thing. It's a biological thing. And what I found through 11 years of bringing entrepreneurs and celebrities and all through the neurofeedback program is that they can do two and a half times more neurofeedback per day before they hit the wall. If I feed them right and I give them the right supplements, we're turning up energy, more energy for growth and expansion and transformation. And so I, I often think, you know, if I was a therapist, which I'm not, I know a thing or two, as you can tell, I would want my people to come in having taken mitochondrial enhancers, maybe take some MCT oil or other ketone expanders. Because when the brain is fully energized, the body relaxes. When the body's relaxed and the brain is full of energy, even if you only have a 45 minute EMDR session, you will get more healing per 45 minutes than someone who comes in without preparing their cells to receive new information about reality.

So you talked about, in a sense, training the mitochondria not to react, to not have that initial fear reaction. And so on the one hand, I hear you talking about ways to sort of energize the mitochondria so they're some more robust, which maybe makes them more resilient and maybe less triggerable, I don't know. And then on the other hand, you were referencing neurofeedback training. And so I'm wondering if that's, you know, in other words, the place where the choice gets made to not have the fear reaction to whatever might have previously caused the fear reaction. Is that a change in mindset? Is it a psychological change? Is it literally a neurobiological change? Is it a change that the mitochondria cellular level? Where is that change happening other than helping the body be more energized and your mitochondria perhaps more robust? What is the mechanism for that change?

I love this question. The first one is when the mitochondria are not making energy efficiently, you will feel a lack of ease in your life in Fact, we call it dis ease disease. So low energy, it's just a subtle feeling throughout your entire body and all the world around you that something isn't quite right. And this is the body trying to communicate, like, you gotta do something about this. And maybe it's toxins, maybe it's circadian biology, maybe it's what you're eating. It can be all sorts of things. And it even could be stress coming from your mind because there is real emotional stress from narcissistic abuse, from environmental things, financial stress, like all the real world stressors. And those will affect the mitochondria as well. It's a two way street, but they listen ten times more to the world around you than they listen to you. It's hard for them to listen to you because you're so damn slow. These guys are responding within a microsecond to reality and you're responding a third of a second later. In fact, I look at the mitochondria as a distributed consciousness. It's a collective consciousness diffused throughout your tissues. And the implications of that are profound because it means they can learn. And we know they can, because mitochondria vote with each other in a process called quorum sensing. So one mitochondria is stressed and it asks all the other mitochondria around it, hey, are you stressed too? What's going on? And then they make a collective decision in that organ or that local part of the body, and then they send it upstream and they talk to other mitochondria and it makes it into our nervous system and it goes up through our vagal system or other nerves, depending on what they're sensing. And then you sense it. And the easiest way to think about this is you ever lean on a hot stove accidentally and go, you know what? That's really hot. I think I should move my hand. Like no one's ever done that. Of course you jerk your hand away and say, good thing I moved before I burned myself. But that's a lie. You never chose to move. You didn't perceive the pain until your hand was off of there. So some other system that is blindingly fast is keeping you alive all the time. This is the positive aspect of the ego, in that the ego is there as part of your operating system to keep the meat alive, as if you weren't in there. And the negative aspect of the ego, and I believe the ego, is just the distributed consciousness of your mitochondria running ancient programming. Think about it. You know, every time you ever procrastinated or didn't take an opportunity because you were afraid every time you ate all the pizza and cheesecake wrapped in Twinkies or something, and, and every time you went on that date that you know you shouldn't have gone on, like, these are all the things we work on in therapy all the time. They're all mitochondrial network behaviors that happen before you can think. So the mitochondria hate it that you're conscious and you're trying to control your body, that it's their job to do that, and they're really good at it. Unfortunately, they don't understand time, they don't understand context, they don't understand resource awareness. They know they're one day away from starving to death and that if you don't have sex right now, the species might end. Right? And if something eats you, it's game over. Maybe you're the last of your species. They have no context at all, so they're highly reactive. So the mechanism of this change that you experience with a lot of the transpersonal things, things that almost don't make sense when you're doing this kind of work, it's that it reprograms that consciousness the same way we would reprogram our conscious minds with neurofeedback or breath work or contemplation or journaling, breathwork, all those things. It reprograms that network to not identify fake fears. So when we're growing up, that first seven years especially, but even teenage years, we all have parental mistakes, bullying, quite often abuse, intentional or not intentional. And each of those leaves a mark. And later in life, when we start doing our personal development work, our mitochondrial network still remembers that you felt unsafe at that time. And it's not going to forget, because if you felt unsafe once, you might feel unsafe again. So the next time a situation comes up that feels to a dumb network of bacteria, but very fast next time it feels the same, it's going to send you profound feelings of anxiety and fear and sometimes physical symptoms, even though in reality it's not the same thing. It's just not smart enough to know it's not the same. And so what we're doing in these profound journeys is with the right techniques, we're able to go in and tell the mitochondria that was bad programming, that it was a mistake, and it doesn't need to feel fear. You don't have to turn that alert on anymore. I like to think about what would happen on your phone if you allowed every application to alert you all the time. You couldn't do anything with your phone because this is popping up all the time. So you can go in on your phone and you say, I don't want to be alerted for that. I don't want to be alerted for that. I only want to be alerted if this is real. We just do the same thing to program the mitochondria, which is the first filter of reality. So they're not going to send you profound sense of unsafety and grief if someone criticized you. Right. We're not going to send you profound feelings of anger if someone cuts you off in traffic because you felt disrespected the way when you were five and a bully hit you or whatever the heck it was. And you can, you know, it's like an old story at this point, but you can say, well, you know, that guy must be on his way to see his daughter be born in the hospital. So, like, go for it, man. And I've had that shift myself. I used to be a pretty road rage kind of person at my 20s, and now I'm like, all right, you're in a really big hurry. Go for it. It just doesn't cost me anything because I'm not feeling the sense of pain. And I realize I can make up whatever story I want. The reality is, I don't know why that guy did that. And it doesn't really matter either, because it wasn't about me. So it's the changing of the distributed conscious network so that it better filters reality to find real danger versus what might be dangerous. And the dropping of fear, which is the first thing mitochondria do, frees up so much energy that it immediately shifts into food. I wrote the first major book on intermittent fasting called the Bulletproof Diet. Almost a million copies sold. People lost millions of pounds and their brains work better and all that. Teaching yourself that you won't die if you go a day without eating is profoundly healing and beneficial for all kinds of personal development work. And for me, I knew that I ate if I was lonely. And I knew, actually I felt lonely a lot, to be honest, even when I wasn't. And I also knew that if I didn't eat six times a day, my body would go into starvation mode. That's a fear death word, by the way. And I finally just said, I'm done. I hired a shaman in 2008 to drop me off in a cave outside Sedona. It's called First Woman because it's a shape like a giant vagina. It's where the local tribes people believe that Adam and Eve in their legends came from. And I spent four days all by myself with no food and no people so that I could experience loneliness. And I knew if I got hypoglybitschy that what am I gonna do? Yell at the walls? So I wrote a book about that called Fast this way. About the spiritual, psychological, emotional and biological side of fasting so people wouldn't over fast. It was turning off that idea that I would die if I didn't eat. Because reality is all of us have more than 60 days of no food before we die. But right now your brain is probably saying, tacos, if I don't have lunch, I'm starving, I'm gonna die if I don't eat soon. That's a total lie. It's your body trying to control you based on ancient programming. So we can turn off our fear, we can turn off inappropriate hunger, because real hunger is a gentle feeling. Says I gotta eat sometime in a little while if I wanna be at my very best. But I could go days without it and still do everything I need to do. And then that we've come to the next one, which is the fertility or the recreational form of that F word. And on that one there's a profound sense that if I don't have love and procreation activities in my life, something is deeply wrong and I might die. Right? And that is not true either. And I teach in some of my advanced work, I'll talk about esoteric practices that are often aligned with psychedelic, cutting edge stuff around semen retention. Look, you gotta teach, especially men. You're not gonna die if you don't ejaculate. You can actually have love and oxytocin, whether or not, like that's not the goal. So now you have a sense of peace because you're not afraid. You have a sense of peace because hunger is a subtle thing. And you have a sense of peace because you're present and conscious when it comes to intimate activities. The amount of energy that's left at the end of the day when you reprogram the mitochondrial network to not be spending all of your precious thoughts on those things, it makes meditation so much easier. Means you go into a therapist's office and you do EMDR or you do whatever type of ifs or other work you're doing, you just have so much more energy, so much more ease, so much less friction. And then we bring in the beautiful aspect of psychedelics, which is that they're showing you the World more the way your mitochondria see the world. And you can then go in and you can see the mitochondrial activity. With the right meditation techniques, you can travel through your body's tissues. You can talk to your mitochondria, you can look inside your bones. I'm sure people listening have done this, and you get a sense for why they're reacting. And you'll have these memories of things that happened when you were little or maybe in some other life if you're in that. Those frameworks. Oh, now I can heal that. And I've been searching for many years for how do I most effectively reprogram that network. And it has a lot to do with some of the Buddhist teachings. It also has to do with esoteric Christianity. And it's another F word that's not on the list of those 5F words I taught. It's forgiveness. But I find it really difficult to sit down with someone, especially an entrepreneur, someone who's high performing, like I have been in my life, still am, but from a different perspective and say, you know, you need to forgive something. Like, I'm not going to tell someone I forgive them. Like, screw you. And it's such a trigger word, they won't do it. So I talk about something. My next book is on this. It's called the Reset Process and the Gift for Everyone Listening. Whether you're using psychedelics, intercession with a client or not is that if you want to truly turn off this reactivity, you want to truly remove a grudge, you want to truly forgive all the way through to love, There is a key that unlocks the door, and the key is gratitude. So I've worked with people who have been tortured in war situations, and this would be something hard to forgive, right? But when they do this, you sit them down and say, all right, I know that sucked and we're not going to condone it, but what's one good thing that happened as a result of this? And they sit down. And once the mitochondrial network sense the tiniest spark of gratitude, it can be to the extent, well, yeah, I lost my leg in that car accident, but thank God I have the other one. Okay, there's your gratitude. It doesn't matter how big of a thing it is, it can be the tiniest part that flips networks that you can measure with neuroscience into a different receptive state. And only once gratitude is present and you amplify it greatly with a sense of awe, then you can go in and you can do deep, permanent repatterning. And forgiveness. And you can see, oh, the person who did that, well, they only did it because their parents were mean to them. Like, imagine how much suffering it would take to create this kind of evil behavior. And you actually start to feel empathy. And then you start to feel compassion. And when you learn how to feel empathy and compassion for someone who harmed you, not to say that what they did was okay, not ever to tell them this, but just so you're like a poor person. Like, can you imagine what it would take to make you be such a monster? Ugh. All right. At that point, you have a sense of freedom. And with psychedelics, because they increase neuroplasticity, they turn off the default mode network, they let you sense all these things. The sense of awe is incredible. So when people come in to 40 years of Zen to go through this process, and we've shown now for 11 years, five days of intense work using this reset process will put their brains in a state very similar to people who have done 20 to 40 years of daily meditation practice. And it's because. And you can do this. Everyone listening can do this reset process. With clients, it's step one is gratitude, step two is forgiveness. And when you do those in order, profound things happen. And because psychedelics, especially ketamine, which is why we have the world's first psychedelic assisted neurofeedback at 40 years of Zen, the sense of awe and gratitude. So if you're sitting there going, all right, I'm coming out of the journey part of Academy and journey, and you can do this with all of the things that you would normally do, all the different psychedelics, except maybe ibogaine, I don't think that's a great one for this. But if you're there and you say, okay, they're in this sense of expansiveness and awe and beauty, and then they find gratitude. And that amplifies the gratitude. Meanwhile, under the curtains, levels of bdnf, which is brain derived nootropic factor, the neuroplasticity juice for the brain that young people have, those are elevated for 72 hours after ketamine. Even a low dose of ketamine, that doesn't make people trip, a psycholytic dose. So all of a sudden then like, wow, I feel this beauty in the world. I feel gratitude. And then they look at the perpetrator and they go, oh, I see. And when that happens, they come out of the experience and the next time that situation comes up, that would have triggered them, or you might have armed them with tools to deal with the triggering. So they still act like an adult who's highly functional in the world instead of having to use those tools. The trigger never happened because you erased the trigger. You taught the mitochondria that this sense of awe and gratitude and compassion was a superior response to the fear that they just put in place to try to keep your meat alive. And this has been profoundly transformational for me. I actually have eight companies right now, and I've been through a lot. I've been consciously uncoupled from my wife. The company that I started fired me bulletproof about three plus years ago. They sold the company for 10% and what it was worth when I was running it. And I am profoundly happy and I'm grateful. And these are things that would have crushed me if this had happened when I was 20 or 30. And it's because I've gone through every single trigger I can find in my life of any sort. I sit down and I run the reset process. Psychedelics accelerate it. Neurofeedback accelerates it. Breath work accelerates it. Journaling probably accelerates it. And it's that understanding it's not your choice to feel this way. And there's nothing wrong that you feel this way. It's that the environment programmed your biology to respond this way to keep you alive. And just like it, also make it so much easier to see the world from your mitochondria's perspective. Where does it sit? To answer your question, Fleet, it sits in the distributed consciousness. Things in the brain don't really sit in one place. It's a distributed network. Well, this is a distributed network of consciousness throughout the body. And even more importantly, we've all heard of Schrodinger's cat and the double slit experiment in quantum reality and manifestation. And waveforms only collapse into particles when they're observed. You are not the observer of reality, and I can prove it. Because you only see reality a third of a second after it happens. Your mitochondria see reality before you do, and you can program them to see the reality you want. And I think they collapse the waveform of that reality, which is why some of the really amazing and seemingly magical things that happen during deep meditation or deep work seem to happen. See what was there, we just couldn't see it because we didn't know how to collapse it.

Fascinating, to say the very least. And you've gotten into a lot of applied areas, which I think can be incredibly beneficial to both the clinicians in our audience as well as the lay public who's interested in psychedelic assisted therapy and maybe potential clients are just interested in the field. And I hope I want to go more into that, but I also want to go back into a little. Down a rabbit hole still. Just a minute perhaps. And so, you know, when I hear you talking about this distributed network of consciousness, the mitochondria is a distributed network of consciousness. It sounds like on the end, obviously this is intelligence. Intelligence and it's intelligent, but at the same time, at the mitochondrial level, it's also machine like. Similar. Maybe it's very fast because to use a programming metaphor, it's like machine language as opposed to a more elaborated language. Right. So it's very fast, but at the same time it is machine like. And so it needs to be programmed and it can overreact to fear. It can do things that are not even in the organism's ultimate self interest. A couple things here and then have you address it so around. And I feel really bad about this. I got to write this gentleman's name down. I keep forgetting his name. He's an author that. Probably an evolutionary biologist that's written a book. His proposition is that the brain has evolved to deliver a version of reality that we're able to deal with and cope with.

Yes, I'm going to interview this. It's about the user interface on reality that the brain creates. Fascinating and very accurate. Jeff Hawken, it turns out he was the founder of PalmPilot, the first little handheld organizer, great grandfather of the iPhone, wrote another seminal book in the field. And it said the brain predicts reality a microsecond from now, and you notice things that don't match the reality that your body and your brain believe should happen, and that the brain only shows you what you need for the species to survive. And this is true. We don't see X rays, we don't see infrared. But butterflies see infrared, I think anyway, they see ultraviolet. But like, there's all these things that got cut out of our conscious because we didn't need them. There's nothing that says you can't turn on many of those abilities if you want to. In fact, if you get esoteric, the Yogic Siddis, which is a list of 40 or so superpowers that are well documented in humans as they go on their path towards what in the west we call equanimity, in the east we call it enlightenment. But these are things that emerge like, oh, I do know what the other person's thinking, oh, I can heal other people. And there's stuff I haven't experienced it, you know, like a telekinesis and all, but they go through dozens and dozens. And then you look at Joe Dispenza's work where he goes through and he actually looks at studies of this, you look at Lynn McTaggart's work about the field and you realize there's a lot of stuff that our bodies can do that we don't see that they're doing because we don't need to see it for us to survive, but we can see it if we teach ourselves to.

Exactly. And so that's one frame. The question I want to explore with you is it's somewhat about the nature of consciousness altogether and how it manifests in the life form that we are as human beings in this body. And then what that points us to in terms of optimization and so forth and evolution of consciousness. So you have that frame and in some ways the brain has this almost co evolutionary role in that it's showing to us a particular bandwidth of consciousness or of reality basically that we need to survive, that we can handle, that we can cope with. And at the same time our brain can then our consciousness that we're delivered the capacity we have then can also re evolve the brain or change the brain. So in some ways the same way you were talking about the mitochondrial level. So there's all that and then the east, west division, you know, in the west, materialistic reductionistic science is, you know, pretty solid that, you know, the material world is primary and when we die, that's it. Right. And you know, more broadly minded western science would be a little more broad minded than that. Then you have a whole question of quantum theory, which is still materialistic in its essence, but there's at least a little bit of a more flexibility about consciousness. And of course you have the hard problem, so called hard problem of consciousness, that we don't actually know how it arises from the biological phenomena. In the Eastern traditions, yogic traditions, Eastern science tends to see consciousness as primary and to see the body, the material world more as an epiphenomena of consciousness. So you have that overall frame. And then when you were talking about the mitochondria, you know, as kind of this distributed consciousness network. And you know, the mitochondria themselves are bacteria. So it's a biological phenomena. We're talking about actual biology here. And they're influenced in an epigenetic environment which we might want to think of as biological and physical. And it may have those elements, but it's also energy. It's an energy Environment, right? Yeah, that's influencing gene expression, influencing the mitochondria and so all that and then you know, even that, the book we're talking about how the brain has evolved, there's consciousness outside of this particular organic reality at the moment. And you talked about the history of how the mitochondria found the cells and saw that as an ideal petri dish. So I'm curious about your thoughts about this journey we're on as human beings in terms of the evolution of consciousness and our role in that. And in terms of optimizing our health, our well being, optimizing our spiritual journey, our journey of awakening and consciousness, how best do we understand consciousness? Because when you are first speaking, that could sound like kind of a mechanical worldview. And on the other hand we can speak in other languages. So I'm just curious, I don't know if I'm being articulated up here, but I just wanted to nudge you in the direction of a. Down a rabbit hole a little bit. But then I want to come back and really talk about how do we apply this stuff and how do we really.

Yes, well, I am a computer science guy, tech guy in Silicon Valley. My grandparents met on the Manhattan Project. Grandmother's advanced degree in nuclear engineering. My entire family is anti anything energetic or spiritual in any way. I grew up in that framework and I would have rejected all of this wholly where I ended up. And part of the greatest learning of my evolution is that when people talk about non duality, it doesn't make any sense. Until one day I just realized I am simultaneously rational and irrational at the same time. They are both present at the same time and neither one is superior to the other. And that opens the door for things like intuition, for just knowing things, for perceiving things that my rational mind would discard that are actually valuable signals of the world I live in. And to not have any emotional weight on one being superior to the other is incredibly freeing. And it's the highest performance state because you don't waste a lot of energy struggling against one or the other. So if you're someone who I would say lives in the land of the lotus eaters, you know, the yoga teacher who can't show up to their own class on time because they're just too floaty. We all know people like that. We also know a lot of rigid computer nerds. And I am a meat robot. Both of those are forms of hell in traditional Buddhism. Right? So highly functional evolved humans are able to walk with one foot in each of those domains. And to effortlessly move into the land of the lotus eaters, when appropriate, maybe by eating some lotus. And then to also step into the land of logic. And where does discernment come from? Discernment comes from being able to access both states. And when you look at things like venture capital investors, they will tell you, if I use my brain to invest, but my gut is off, I keep losing money. And if I just use my gut, sometimes I make money. But if my gut and my brain aligned, that's when I make a hundred times my investment. So which one do you discard? Well, if I had to discard any of them, it would be my logical brain, but that would be sad. But I believe they're both critically important for us to function when it comes to the Eastern things. And I've, you know, been to Tibet and Nepal and I've done a lot of work with different gurus, a lot of the traditional Chinese esoteric teachings. I have zero doubt that there are past lives. And there's just so much literature supporting this, including even an evolutionary biology book that makes the case for why nature would design humans that way. And I've just seen too much evidence in my own life that I. You could not account for any other way. But I'm also willing to be entirely wrong about that. Okay, maybe that's just a useful framework for me to get more of the things that are important in this life done. And the reality is, curiosity is what's most valuable. And look, if a client. I'll tell you the story. First time I ever did anything Transpersonal, I was 30 years old. And we've done holotropic breath work and a bunch of other stuff at a place called Star foundation. And it was run by the founder of the Pre and Perinatal Psychology Association. And I had a lot of birth trauma I didn't even know about. I'm accessing all these crazy altered states and things like that, and everyone is doing this primal rage therapy and they're hitting pillows with wiffle ball bats and all this stuff a lot of us know about that. It doesn't make any sense, except it works. Well, I was entirely enraged at 14th century French people. I can't tell you why. Actually, I can, because I remembered what I perceive as a past life. So I beat the out of the pillow because I was pissed off about French people in the 14th century who did something bad to a relative. So I don't care if that's real. I really don't. What I care is, did I come out of that a more conscious, less angry human being. And I did. And when you look at all of these experiences through that lens, my body's not going to tell me reality. My body probably knows more reality than I do. I know I can't perceive it all at once. And I know on psychedelics or in altered states, I can perceive a lot more of it. And then I can interact directly with my system to guide it and to do it from a sense of peace. At the end of the day, most people just want to be happy. And there's so many invisible things that the body won't show you, because happiness is not required for survival. It's just required if you want to be happy. And most of us fall for this trap of saying, if I get this, if I do this, I'll be happy. And I tried being famous when I was 23, was the first guy to sell anything over the Internet. I'm an entrepreneur magazine. I'm like, look at me. I wasn't very happy for more than a day. And I tried making $6 million when I was 26. I just said, I'll be happy when I have 10. It didn't work. And I tried getting married, and that didn't work either. And just, oh, happiness isn't about any of that stuff. But my body told me it was about those things, and I believed it profoundly. And you just realize these are internal states. And I think psychedelics offer incredible opportunity with appropriate set and setting and appropriate teachings of techniques to use while you're in them to get results. The other thing that ties into this, that's profoundly important if you accept this idea that you have a separate consciousness that's very fast and very dumb inside of you. If you go on a psychedelic journey and you receive all these downloads or realizations or understandings or whatever you want to call them, but you forget them all. Do you think your ego, your distributed mitochondrial network, forgets them? It doesn't forget. In fact, it can make you forget. In Buddhism, one of the hindrances is forgetfulness. So if you don't have proper integration during and after your psychedelic journey, you will forget the majority of what you learned, but your ego will not. And it can use that against you. And this is why it's so profoundly important you work with a therapist or a shaman or someone who's good at psychedelic facilitation so that you don't lose the value when people come to 40 years of Zen. As soon as they come out of these profound altered states caused by neurofeedback and possibly ketamine together. Then they immediately sit down in a small group with the facilitator. The reason small groups are useful is that when there is a witness to you talking about something, your ego won't let you forget it because it knows there's a witness. And then we record everything for just that one client, we transcribe it and we send it to them so that they can review it two weeks out and six weeks out so that you don't lose any of the hard work you did. Because it is profoundly easy to not get the benefits of psychedelic therapy if you don't have a therapist or a trained professional working to help you get all of the value to milk everything. And we all probably know a few people who are saying, I've done 87 ayahuasca journeys. In fact, there's a big podcaster who does that. When are you going to find out? It's not working because it's strengthening your ego, because you're not getting the integration. The point of psychedelics, especially high dose, is to show you a state to kick open the door so that you can learn to step through the door of your own volition. And when you rely on them to continuously do that, and you do them all of the time, I think you strengthen your ego, you don't weaken it, and you can get pretty weird that way. And this is why appropriate use, spaced use, and hardcore integration afterwards is required. And that's why it's. For me, it's a five day program when I do it, because I need people to go deep. We have special equipment that I designed that feels like you're in a womb or a cave just to get the nervous system and the mitochondria to relax enough for you to really go in and do the deep work. And then you talk about it, because if you don't talk about it, it doesn't work. And there's something else that's critically important that we haven't talked about.

Well, we'll come to that in just a second. So I love the way you framed your initial response when you're talking about the rational irrational mind and really honoring the non dual unity of all that and non exclusive nature of either view, I think that's particularly important. And one of the aspects and this movement of psychedelic assisted therapy is understanding how to integrate indigenous ways of knowing, modern Western ways of knowing, as well as the contemplative wisdom east and west, and in particular the indigenous people who've been stewarding these plant medicines. For millennia are really honoring that and understanding how to interface these worlds to learn without co opting and so forth. So I think you express that quite beautifully. I think very importantly, and the way you express the need for integration and the possibilities within psychedelics to actually strengthen the ego rather than dissolve it over time, I think so important. And with Heidel's experiences, we often at least consciously forget much of the experience. So I think you're, you're right on and focusing on all that. And I just also wanted to reference your reset program there. I spend about the first two and a half hours every morning, every first two and a half hours of my day optimizing my body, mind, heart and spirit. And I do first hour is a lot of very precise breath work and tapping and within the context of that, doing gratitude and forgiveness work. And I do that before I go on to hygiene and then on to my meditation, ultimate meditation sessions. Right. But I can bear the truth of the importance of both gratitude and forgiveness and how they're really such key levers in sort of rewiring our neural architecture and ultimately our way of being in our consciousness. So there's just so much in there that is pointing in so many directions for this. And the work we're doing of trying to bring this field forward, you know, there's an ultimate inevitable medicalization of the field just to get it, you know, accessible to people. In our modern Western society, there's all that that's going on and we hope to do that in ways that, you know, do the less damage and actually make things distributed widely in an equitable way. But we also really need to honor the spiritual side of this and honor the indigenous traditions and as well as have a deeper view of consciousness than a purely material kind of allopathic medicine view that's all about a bell caravan is not personalized to any of us in any way. So I think you're pointing in a lot of wonderful directions here of how we can interface this and really having some of the deep conversation that will help inform that. So I just wanted to kind of name all that and that would really invite you to. We're kind of getting towards the end of our time to share. What do you feel is most essential in this conversation?

I want our people who are interested in therapy and our therapists to know about one thing that is a part of the 40 years Zen program. It's that your mitochondria are profoundly sensitive to light. And if you do a journey in darkness, you get a different result than Doing in a room with some LEDs or a little bit of light coming around, but the color of light changes consciousness. So we use something called truedark glasses. And I invented these a dozen years ago or so. And yes, I kind of look like Iron man right now. These glasses in a study that we just published in a medical journal. I'm forgetting which one. 15 minutes of wearing them puts your brain in the same state as doing advanced meditation. It'll drop you out of beta, it'll raise alpha. But if you wear these during or specifically after a journey, as you come out, or after deep breath work, or after neurofeedback, you will stay in the meditative state where you can recall more quickly. And these are like 70 bucks or something. It's called true dark. And the idea here is the mitochondria and the brain spend a huge amount of time sorting through all sorts of different light forms. When you're only allowing a narrow bandwidth through into the eyes, the brain can relax. So think of these like noise canceling headphones for the eyes when you're doing integration with someone, even if it's after EMDR or tapping or whatever else. If you have them in truedark glasses, try it one time on yourself. And just warning, if you wear these all day long, they will make you want to go to sleep because your mind actually perceives the world as being fully dark when you're wearing the strongest of the truedark glasses. But for getting people to stay in the healing state so they can do integration after they do the intervention, whether it's psychedelic or breath work or whatever. The color of light is so profoundly important because of mitochondria and it's not something you usually see talked about. Even a dim red lamp instead of the fluorescent lights will change your therapy session entirely. So this is just worth sharing with people. It's very low cost and it's very impactful.

Well, I'm really glad you shared it and very cool looking at the same time. So thank you. Yeah, absolutely. So maybe we could touch just a little bit with the time we have left on the whole world of microdosing. When Matt, you probably had conversations with Paul Stamets. I don't know if you have.

Oh yeah, a dinner in his house. He's a Francisco, I would imagine.

And so, you know, he likes to talk about how, you know, human and fungi have kind of co evolved, you know, so we can again go back to the conversation about consciousness. We don't need to go all the way down that rabbit Hole again, but obviously we're talking about different forms of distributed networks of consciousness. And the metaphors, or they're not even metaphors, the direct realities work very well there in terms of mycelium and all of that. But the whole world of microdosing, of course there is psychoactive microdosing. Well, it's not psycho, it has psychedelic medicine in it. But it's at non psychoactive levels, I guess is one of their non psychedelic experience levels. But then there's also microdosing with other, you know, other things that are not psychedelic compounds that might be part of optimizing the mitochondria and so forth. But maybe we could focus on, well, you could talk about whatever you like, the microdosing world in general. But maybe to the extent that that will eventually, if it's legalized, we'll have supplements that maybe have psilocybin or other psychedelic compounds in them.

Full disclosure, I'm an investor in Paul Stamets's microdosing company. Just so for people listening, I could have some bias here that I'm unaware of. But what Paul discovered is that microdose psilocybin plus a B vitamin called niacin that causes blood vessels to open up, plus lion's mane mushroom that increases that bdnf, that neuroplasticity factor causes whole brain neuron regrowth, which is a holy grail of neuroscience. We only until this point could regrow neurons in the hippocampus. And so to be able to repair the whole brain after physical trauma or chemical trauma or even emotional trauma, that can cause changes in the brain, that's profound. I live in Austin and I go to a lot of parties and people say, oh, I'm taking a microdose. I'm like, dude, you're taking half a gram of psilocybin. That is not a microdose. That is a recreational dose. A microdose is below the level of perception and it's about 5% of a normal dose, maybe 10% for psilocybin. And you might feel a bit more creative, a bit more sparkly, but quite often people are overdosing with microdoses. And you can do this every other day. I did a microdose of LSD every day for 30 days to write a blog post about it years ago. And you will see subtle shifts in perception. People report their creativity goes up. Most of the ultra marathoners, if they're off camera, will tell you they're microdosing LSD when they're going to run A hundred miles because it does something for endurance. So I think there's great value in these particularly for neuroplasticity. But understand if you're having fun on it, that's not a bad thing. You're just having a party dose. I see a lot of people these days, really including me, who are California sober, which means you don't drink because drinking is bad for consciousness, bad for aging, bad for your brain. I'll see Dr. Daniel Amen's work for that kind of a thing. But if you instead take a low dose but a perceptible dose of psilocybin or possibly even mdma, although that has a problem. If you do that a lot, what they're feeling is they have a fun time at the party, they're more open, but they're not out of control and flopping around on the floor and having a journey. And I think that's much better for the brain than alcohol. This is not a call to go out and just do it all willy nilly. The best thing you can do is set an intention, use shamanic techniques, work with a therapist and have an intentional journey. But if you're not going to do that and you're saying today's a really big day, I need to be creative. I'm going to write and I'm going to take a microdose. It'll work if you're dealing with brain trauma or doing deep personal work. I believe that appropriate microdosing of psilocybin or LSD in particular can have profound effects on how fast you progress or how intuitive and creative you are. And for the LSD side of things, James Fadiman is probably our top expert. And on the mushroom side of things, Paul Stamets is just a force of knowledge in the space. Those are the two experts I rely on the most.

Yeah, we've had both Paul and Jim this year as well. And I believe at Sandals Laboratories the first person to synthesize lsd, Albert Hoffman. I, I, I've read anywhere that he microdosed LSD the rest of his life for the most part or very often.

I've read that too. And there's also the famous book by Sasha Shogun called Pkal Phenyl Ethanolamines I have known and loved, which is a beautiful book from one of the fathers of psychedelic therapy. The other one who I've with and hosted a breath workshop with is Stan Grof. So for people who are interested in these things, Stan's now a hundred and all of these. Stan treated 3,000 people with LSD as a licensed therapist before it became illegal and created this breath work based on old yoga techniques when LSD became illegal. So we could have similar result. The nugget for all of us in that is that breath work has similar results to psychedelics and you don't have to do psychedelics and they're probably a good idea. I also feel like we should spend 30 seconds talking about the fact that somewhere around 1 to 5% of people, especially Eastern Europeans, genetically Eastern Europeans have genetics where they can get serotonin overload from psychedelics, including ones that are very beneficial for the rest of us. So it's possible that you could have. I don't think ketamine does this, but you could have a very high heart rate and very high blood pressure. If that happens, you need to get them to an urgent care center. And IV benzodiazepines will stop that. It's rare, but I had a family member who had this, you know, half a dose of lsd, incredibly high blood pressure, huge physical anxiety, shaking, sweating that didn't go away the way it would after a normal thing. So they're not without risk, they're just probably lower risk than Advil. But there is risk and we should point to that.

All of these are still illegal other than breath work. Breath work's completely legal and should be also treated with caution because transformational, intense breath work and be destabilizing and not something to mess around with about good guidance. And the only psychedelic drug currently available for therapeutic use is ketamine. But again, you know, we're evolving forward with all this. I have one final question for you. I think so. Paul Stamets and Jim Fadiman have both been involved in what you might call kind of citizens research where they've been getting firsthand reports from people about their use of various stack of microdosing. And between the two of them, they probably collected something like 60,000 reports by now. And I understand that Paul's work on collecting that data is now they published some. I think they're about to publish it in Nature magazine, a leading professional journal and scientific journal. It is leading to some clinical trials. There will be more traditional clinical trials. I just happened to look on a Harvard Medical School website the other day and right there, and very prominently is still saying there's absolutely no evidence for any neurotropic substances benefiting the brain in any way. They're not saying it doesn't, but there's no direct evidence that any of these neurotropic mixes benefit. So I'm just curious about your thoughts on that. What it's going to take to establish the research kind of behind what everything you've been pointing to, which is very logical. I know there is a lot of. You can pull together different areas of biological neuroscience research to support all this, but in terms of, you know, eventually, if we can get some of these substances legal so they can be part of supplements and nootropic supplements and so forth, you know, how are we going to do the research that is going to establish that these things can maybe prevent dementia, can optimize brain health and so forth.

Harvard took a lot of hits during the COVID pandemic for obvious reasons at this point. And they used to have an impeccable reputation, and they don't anymore because they earned it. And when you have the hubris to tell people the sky is not blue because no one who has academic tenure says it's blue, even though millions of people can see that the sky is blue, at a certain point, you become irrelevant. And we're at the point of these priests of science who are willing to stand there and actually believe their own and say there is no evidence, despite astounding amounts of evidence. I'm to the point where I reject the idea of a citizen scientist. A scientist is someone who follows the scientific method, which you should have learned in about sixth grade. And it's easy. You observe, you make a hypothesis, you test the hypothesis. It's not that hard. You don't need a license to be a scientist. So I strip the word citizen off of this. If you're following that method and you're recording your results, you are a scientist. And a scientist is not with a capital S, that you don't need a license, you don't need to be ordained as a scientist by Harvard or anyone else. You need to be curious, and you need to know how to run the process. And this is just being a human. There was a company called Patients Like Me that started doing this for chronic illnesses like fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue, which I did have. 23andMe bought patients like me. So, yes, the power of millions of people gathering data dwarfs Harvard's ego. And one of the reasons that I started the biohacking movement was that one of the things we do is we just do what works, which means you have to measure what you're doing. And you can measure whether nootropic, which is a class of pharmaceuticals and a class of herbal or other supplements. That's well Understood, since the mid-80s when Steve Fowkes F O W K E s one of my mentors, came out with smart drug news. There is abundant evidence Sandoz Pharmaceuticals manufactures Piracetam, one of the most studied nootropic factors. By the way, it stacks well with psychedelics. Aphenol, Piracetam does not. Why does Sandoz make something that is not in the physician's desk reference in the U.S. it's because hubris or because they don't want you to have access to it. There's another pharmaceutical called Modafinil, which is the most studied cognitive enhancer that we know of, aside from possibly nicotine. Smoking's bad for you, but micro doses of nicotine, as I wrote in my book Headstrong, will they stop you from getting Alzheimer's disease? They cause you to type 15% faster and they create measurable changes in consciousness and brain function that are beneficial. So for someone to say that there's no evidence, could you open your eyes? I kind of reject that. But with the world of biohacking, for instance, most of us now have the ability to monitor sleep and a state of heart rate variability called resilience or readiness. Heart rate variability is a direct measure of the function of your nervous system. And if you take a nootropic or take some nutrients or take a microdose and you wake up the next morning and you're 50% more resilient as measured by numbers, I think that's science. And when we have a hundred thousand people who did that, that's science with great evidence behind it. And that's the world that we actually live in. The whoop.

One of my wearables.

Nice.

So, absolutely. So thank you so much. And I think that really important, I think we're in this evolutionary stage where the whole world of double blind clinical trials and that whole world, I think is an important world, but it's going to start to give way to a broader, saner sense of what science can be. And I think it's going to involve more of us. And it's interesting that Australia has legalized for therapeutic application psilocybin and mdma. And it seems like it was driven as much by a public demand, a consumer in demand for something they know is healing people as it was by the science, not that they ignored the science. So anyway, I really appreciate your comment there and just thank you so much for this conversation. I think it will just catalyze so many different areas of exploration within the overall conversation. So thank you so much. Dave Asprey known as the Father of Biohacking and the founder of Bulletproof Coffee, but obviously of so many other things and so many other interests and so many contributions to our current evolution of consciousness. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Fleet. Have a wonderful day. And for listeners, do something to make yourself better today. It doesn't have to be psychedelics, but it might be. I'll see you soon.

Thank you. Thank you for joining me on the Radical Responsibility Podcast. Remember, real change happens when we commit to our growth, face our challenges with compassion, and stay open to transformation. If you found this episode helpful, I encourage you to subscribe and help us spread the message of healing and personal empowerment. Stay grounded, stay present and stay true to you. Take care.

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