EP 110: Authentic Leadership & Business Success | Tami Simon

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In this episode of the Radical Responsibility podcast, I'm thrilled to share an interview with Tammy Simon, a remarkable entrepreneur and owner of Sounds True, the premier audio publishing company in the field of mindfulness meditation, spirituality, personal evolution, mindfulness, mindful leadership, and so on. And in this conversation we talk about mindful leadership and we also talk about entrepreneurship and business in general in the post pandemic era and what that is really going to look like. The need to integrate hybrid experiences that involve in person and online experiences. The kind of leadership it takes to be successful today, and the kind of leadership that has allowed Tammy to create a company she's very proud of, where they have a culture that really lines up with all the amazing teachings that they've been publishing for more than two decades.

Thrilled to be here today with Tammy Simon, the founder of Sounds True. Hi, Tammy.

Hi, Fleet. Great to be with you.

Great to be with you. Good to see you. So Tammy is the founder of Sounds True, which you founded in 1985 at 22 years of age. Really started quite young. Sounds True has twice been named to the Inc. Magazine 500 list of 5 inches inc 500 list of fastest growing companies in the U.S. privately held companies. So that's quite a distinction for a small business owner. And Tammy also has a podcast, a regular podcast, which is called Insights at the Edge, which I'm happy to say I've been a guest on. And for full disclosure, Sounds True published my book Radical Responsibility last year. I'm very proud that Sounds True is my publisher. And over the years when I was out at your offices doing some recording, I look back in that room where you have all the master tapes and it's really kind of amazing to look at that because every teacher of consciousness and meditation and yoga, every spiritual teacher you've ever heard of or thought of, they're all there. It's quite amazing over the years and you've interviewed many of them in your podcast. And so you've worked with teachers like Eckhart Tolle and Tar Brock, Pema Chodron, Deepak Chopra, Marianne Williamson, Ram Dass, all the most beloved teachers in our culture here in the West. And so that's pretty amazing. And it's been such a gift. I was very happy that for many years we were able to send some of Sounds True's audio materials into prisons, and it was a great resource to be able to get into the prisons. So here we're here today to talk about, you know, we're in the context we're all going through this COVID 19 global pandemic together, which is just. I mean, all the terms are becoming somewhat cliche, but they are true. We're in uncharted waters. It's just off the charts. We've never been through anything like this, at least in our lifetimes. And in the background of that is this looming or already present climate emergency and all the potential and environmental, economic, social, political disruption that could come from that. So suffice it to say, we're living in really challenging times. And I think probably all human beings have probably always thought that, but I think these probably really are the most challenging times human beings have yet had to deal with. And so what we're going to explore today is what is resilient leadership and what's involved in building a resilient organization. I mean, your organization has been the leading audio publisher and a major book publisher in the. In the spirituality and wisdom and mindfulness space, if you will. And you've gone through a lot of changes. All the hard media, you started off with, cassette tapes, if I'm not mistaken, and all that hard media has all but disappeared. And I know you've had to go through a lot of changes and be very nimble to survive and thrive as an organization. So just wherever you'd like to start, Tammy, with your own journey to becoming a resilient leader and building a resilient organization.

Well, to start Fleet, just a moment of gratitude for your desire to talk with me and to bring me forward in this way and for our relationship through. Sounds true. So thank you. In terms of resiliency, it's an interesting word. The word itself feels a little abstract to me as a word, but when I get into it and I feel it inside of myself, the kinds of ways I feel it are the ability to bounce back, to return to when you fall, to get back up. And recently I was interviewing someone for my podcast whose book we've published. The book is called the New Alpha Male, and his name is Lance Allred, and he has the notoriety of being the first NBA basketball player who's legally deaf. And he described perseverance in a very interesting way, because I think there's a relationship between being resilient and being able to persevere to get back up. No matter what, you're down, you get back up, you're down you get, back up. So here's a competitive athlete and his definition of perseverance was the ability to adapt. And he used this in relationship to playing basketball because he would go out on the basketball court with his team and they would have a certain way that they were going to play the game. You know, they came in with their plays that they were going to run. But as soon as you run the plays, the other team knows exactly what you're doing. They figured you out. You can't just keep doing what you came in to do. You have to figure out how you're going to completely change and do something different and surprise them. So this capacity to adapt and I think we're finding ourselves right now, if anybody who's managing a business is having to be incredibly.

Adaptive, we have to be so flexible, we have to be so willing to say, no, we're not going to do that. Guess what guys, Our priorities are changing. Here is actually the best way we can serve right now. So I think there's a combination of things just to start. The first is our own inner capacity because things always start from that. If we're like a leaf that's blown around, we're not going to be able to even find the intelligence to know how we need to adapt in the moment. We're not going to have the openness to hear from everybody in our team. And I think that's my second point. So the first point is your own inner groundedness and strength and capacity to be wise and skillful. Because without that you're hooped. You're a leaf. Once you have that, then the second point is can you actually take input from all the people you work with? You know, there's 110 people on the Sounds True payroll right now, plus another 30, 40 contractors that we work with. Tremendous intelligence. The people who are closest to the work, who know what needs to happen right now. Can our organization, the whole of our organization, be a resilient organization? Are each of those individuals being supported and being tapped in to their own rootedness, their own skillfulness, their own groundedness? And then are we listening as a collective group? And then my third point is this adaptation point. We have the individual, we have the group, and then we have our willingness to change and move and be nimble as we have to.

Well, that's wonderful. And I've been.

I've been out to your offices several times and one of the things that. Well, I just noticed a very.

I do a lot of corporate consulting business. I've been inside a lot of companies. And there was certainly a wonderful environment there. It was a typical work environment. People are busy, people are working. But there was a kind of baseline of okayness and a positivity. And the one thing that really stood out for me were the dogs that. That people bring their dogs to work. And there's a lot of dogs there. And, you know, that's talk about, you know, sources of personal resilience. I unfortunately lost my lab a few years back. You had a long life, but, you know, that relationship is a tremendous source of resilience. So I know that's one thing that really humanizes or pupifies your environment. How would you describe your style as a CEO and owner? What's your leadership style? Your manager style?

Yeah, I think that's an interesting question. To be truthful and vulnerable, that's kind of my starting point. And in some ways that's been my.

Ace, you could say. And the reason I say that is I don't think that I'm that strategic. I don't think that my mind often runs that fast. But one, I really genuinely care about people. So that means our authors, that means our customers, that means all the people I work with, that means our vendors. I mean, I genuinely want us all to rise as not just a sounds true community, but as a collective group of human beings in the world. So that's very genuine. That's very sincere me. And that means that that informs everything we do and all the decisions we make. I think I had an early recognition as a meditator of interdependence and what that means, and then bringing that to our business activities. It has to be good for everybody. So there's that. And then not being necessarily the quickest or most strategic or anything. I have always been willing to share myself, to share my heart, to say what I feel. And people who work with me, they'll say, you know, Tammy, we always know where you stand. We always know what's going on for you, and that creates an environment. You know, they recently did some studies at Google that the number one quality for a team to have to be successful is psychological safety. So what creates psychological safety? I mean, I know I feel psychologically safe with people who are congruent. They say what's going on? When I can feel there's that disconnect, like they're saying one thing, but I really feel another thing. I don't feel safe. I'm trying to figure out what the heck's really going on with this person. You know, their words are like this, but their body posture is doing something different. So if somebody's willing to be vulnerable, tell the truth, and if they genuinely care, I think that creates an environment of safety. And I think that, as it turns out, brings out the best in people when they feel safe.

I think in my work with leaders, that's, I think one of the toughest lessons for many leaders to learn is that.

Really the strength of the leadership comes through vulnerability and transparency. And it's kind of counterintuitive for a lot of leaders because it feels more like you're placing yourself at risk.

Right.

And so it's really powerful that that's your leadership style. I would imagine running a company the size of sounds true. And with all the changes you've gone through in the media world, that you have to have some pretty tough conversations at times, both with your employees and with vendors, contractors, even maybe some of your authors and so forth. And so I'm wondering how you mask the ability to be vulnerable and be transparent and create. You know, I think you have, you know, if loving community is the right word, but you have a very human and a very family like atmosphere and community there, and yet really be willing to take your seat and call the shots and have the tough conversations when you need to have them.

Mm. Well, you know, it's interesting, Fleet, that you said, you know, you work with a lot of leaders and you coach them or help train them on how to be vulnerable and how to share what they're feeling. You know, for me, as I said, it's weird. That's always been my orientation. So that's my native orientation. And in fact, if anything, I've had to figure out how to be guarded at the right times, how to be politically savvy, how to know that's not. That's not actually what you're supposed to say, Tamm, in this environment. And that's not appropriate. Like, that's not going to work, you know, or there are laws against you communicating xyz. So I've had to learn all these other things about, like, the appropriate filters at the appropriate time, and I'm gosh darn happy to say that I've developed those filters. Okay, now your point, though, about how to have tough conversations, you know, it always comes back to something really basic, really, really basic. And it's in the name of our company, which is to tell the truth, you know, sometimes we'll have something hard we need to say and we'll have a conversation as a leadership team, like, how do we communicate this hard thing. And it's kind of like, how do we, how do we slightly create the narrative? So, you know, let's. Could we spin it this way or slightly spin it that way? And it always comes back to, why don't we just tell the truth? Why don't we just be straightforward? Like if we're at, like, why don't we just lay out and take our time? Historically, like, this is where we were, this is what happened. This new piece of information came then. This came then. There's this thing that we can't really give you all the details about because it's not appropriate in this context to do so. But let me tell you, I'm not going to tell you. So even when you have to have a hard conversation and you can't lay everything out, you even by telling people, there's this thing I'm not going to tell you. And here's why. That relaxes people in the room. And suddenly when there's a whole hell of a lot of truth in the room, it's like the windows are open and there's, you know, there's air coming through and people are like, oh my God, there's a whole lot of truth here. And with that then comes the, what you called and pointed to not just love, but the relaxation, a certain kind of casualness because people aren't trying to figure out what's coming from behind them. That is you know, the backstab or the, you know, people don't have to figure that out. It's all right there. It's all in the air.

I would imagine that really helps with creativity within your organization. I also, in the past have led a lot of design shop kind of things and creative planning things within organizations and companies. And, and we'll have a large group of a company or segments or teams with their managers or even with a CEO or owner in the room. And my job is to get the space safe so that people stop editing themselves and stop worrying about looking smart, looking stupid, or what they're going to say in front of the CEO. And sometimes it'll take several hours in a day process to get that room safe. And when it feels safe, then the creativity just takes off.

Yeah.

So I would think that your style probably really helps in terms of. Because your teams, you're involved in a lot of artistic media work and your teams need to be creative, obviously, and even in terms not only how you're bringing wisdom, teaching to the world, but all your marketing and all the rest of it to thrive as A company, you've obviously had to be very innovative and creative.

Yeah. And, you know, I think one of the principles for me has always been, can we operate as a company in a way that reflects the wisdom teachings that we publish, Actually translating that into how we are with each other. Such that when I imagine the great wisdom keepers in the etheric realms, the ones who all of the different wisdom lineages have come through, when they look at sounds true and say, we're so pleased, we're so happy that this company is bringing out our teachings into the world, those figures which exist inside my heart, they're my real boss. They're the ones I'm looking to. And that requires a different value system than the value system of the culture at large. Like, I've never been particularly interested. I'm pleased. That sounds true. Has been successful financially and been on the Inc. 500 list, obviously. But that's never been the gold ring that I've been going for. As much as that the process of what we do would be a living.

Embodiment of what. What's most important to me, you know, in my heart as a person, that that would be the real accomplishment.

Well, you know, given that your company has been a major vehicle for disseminating the spiritual teachings of many wisdom teachings, you would think you'd almost have to work hard not to be in alignment with those teachings. But I don't think that's the case. Given the human condition, you could easily have a company that would be, you know, bringing all that out to the world, but be pretty conventional, even have all the problems that a lot of companies have. So I'm sure you had to work at that and be proactive to have that alignment. And that seems that what I'm hearing from you, that's kind of your compass point is to have that alignment.

Correct?

Yeah.

That's wonderful.

Yeah.

So where do you think? You know, it's very interesting what we're going through right now. So I'm in touch with many different.

Mindfulness organizations and spiritual community, dharma communities. And, you know, everybody's bringing all their work online right now because they have to. And some organizations were doing online work a lot before. I'm grateful that my nonprofit has always been kind of ahead of the curve with that. But we still have lots of live programs where we're about to do the final retreat for a year long teacher training that normally is live retreat and intense training for a week. We're going to have to do that online the first week of May. So I've been looking around, I see lots of different organizations and sanghas and communities getting really innovative about this. And of course you've been at the leading edge of this with, you know, disseminating spiritual teachings, wisdom teachings, surveys, media. And then now of course you do a lot online as well. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about where we may be when we get on the other side of this time of home confinement and social distancing in terms of, I think so many more people will be awakened to what's possible online, what you can receive and do online. And I'm just wondering if you feel this is going to shift the marketplace, if you will, the industry and how we're all used to accessing these teachings and doing retreats and so forth.

Yeah, well, I think it's like we're having an online accelerator our time. So we're seeing some of the models, the digital models that were already in place suddenly get speeded up rapidly. So that means one on one counseling and coaching. We've already seen that. But now many of my friends who are therapists are doing all their therapy online and discovering that it kind of works and it's okay, you can, it can be effective. So we're seeing the one on one online experience with a trainer, mentor coach that's accelerating. Then we're seeing small groups. Oh, this kind of works. We can have a discussion group of 10 people and oh, this gives me a real feeling of community. I actually feel connected to people and I think people are going to want more of that as well. You'll notice in both of those examples, it's not the one way communication of just a broadcast or people receiving a podcast, but it's this highly interactive exchange. Oh, we can actually connect and do real teaching and mentoring and we can meet in small groups. So I think we're going to see that accelerate. At the same time, there's nothing like being in person. We recently had our first all company meeting online. So we had all 120 or so people on a zoom call. And towards the end of the all company meeting, I said, does anybody want to share anything from their own experience about what they're learning in relationship to their work, each other? And, and one person just said, and it really touched me, which is why I'm bringing it up. She just said, you know, it's great to be with you all like this, but I miss you, miss you. I miss walking down the halls, I miss hugging you, I miss seeing what you're wearing every day and talking to You, I really miss you and I just want you to know that. And I thought to myself, you know, as you asked this question, we're going to want to be together and hug each other and, and I think that blended learning, which is that combination of being in person and online is actually the deepest and richest form of learning we can have because then we get to have both.

Yeah, obviously this pandemic is a wake up call on so many levels and you know, pointing to all the ways in which the way we're living with each other and our pell species and this planet are not sustainable and how fragile our systems are because they're driven for efficiency and profitability. And so we see our healthcare system and break down because it has no redundancy and no backup. And so.

Interestingly.

Well, I think we've all been concerned about, with the emergence of social media and the whole digital universe that there's been maybe a lesson of a lessening of connection or a superficiality of connection. And you know, and then, and that seemed really disturbing. In fact, there's psychologists who are worried about young children and teenagers that are growing up in this age whether they're, they're really going to have dampened emotional intelligence because of the way they're so operating through the digital universe. And yet we're all experiencing now a kind of connectedness. I mean, I.

My family of origin is in St. Louis. I have an older brother, three younger sisters and we're. Well, they're closer because they've always lived there. I'm the one that moved away, but I'm close to them. But you know, we exchange an email here or there, sometimes texting, actually we exchange information with texting. So I had the idea one morning, well, why don't I get my family on Zoom? So I reached out to them and we did. Last Sunday we had a Zoom call with the five of us, the siblings and our partners and it was wonderful. And they said, well, let's keep doing this, this is really great. So I think we're all experiencing some new levels of connectedness through the digital universe. But as you said, it does have this two way aspect to it and it seems like the video really enhances it obviously much more than something like Facebook, which has its place of course in Twitter and so forth. But to actually be able to see each other online seems to be very powerful.

Yeah. And to have real human sharing and real human interaction and that sense of emotional flow between us.

The other thing you mentioned, the kind of hybrids of having, you know, Being able to be in each other's presence and hug and directly connect and being able to connect online and in light of, you know, the climate change situation we're in with global warming. And you know, I travel a lot with my business and teaching and I've been very concerned and my fiance Sophie and I have been talking about a lot. We've been done a deep immersion in all the thought around climate change and the research and we've read everything and watched not everything, but a lot. You know, I've really been going through an emotional journey with it and so I've been very concerned about the amount of air travel I do and thinking of ways to reduce it. And so it could be that in the future we'll have some, maybe we'll be able to limit some of that by more robust online things that we're getting used to, but still have the live where we can or do things in a larger regional, national, global level online, and then have local gatherings where people get to have the live connection, something like that.

Well, I think you're pointing also to a bigger kind of inventory and self investigation that people are going through right now, which I think is very, very healthy, which is looking at everything we do and saying, when this COVID 19 crisis is over and I'm no longer sheltering from home, how might I want to do things differently? Might I not want to commute to work every day, but work from home more? Might I want to make more of my own food versus having restaurant food? Might I want to stay more engaged with people who are really suffering in the world and how I'm able to give to them now and the feeling of connection I have because I have the time to reflect and think about that. Is there a way that I want to simplify my lifestyle? Because I could see during this time that certain things were simplified and I actually didn't need the things I thought I needed. So in that sense, I think it's a terrific opportunity to reflect and potentially reset and hopefully make some important simplifications that will be good for the culture and good for the earth.

You know, I for many years, very involved with one of your neighbors out there in Colorado, Naropa University. I got my master's degree in contemplative psychotherapy there in 1979. And then I was on faculty there for 10 years until I moved to the east coast here back in 2010. And while I was very involved there, especially as faculty, I was always wishing that they would start, you know, because it's Naropa has been a leader in contemplative education, obviously. And I was always wishing that they would start an MBA program there because it's so needed in the business world to get this different kind of training for our business leaders. And so you're actually starting an Inter MBA program, I think is what you're calling it, which is just really an exciting project. Could you talk about it just a little bit? I mean, I don't know if it's purely online or what. I don't know much about what it looks like.

Sure. So it's one of these originally at least it was designed as a blended learning program with two in person events. The first one starts in the middle of September of this year and then in May of 2021 and a nine month curriculum in between. Because we don't know if the September in person event will happen, we have an option to make it online. And so we'll see how the summer, how things evolve and open up. And the design of the program is that over the course of these two in person events and the nine month online training that people get a degree in how to develop their interior, you could say platform of awareness, their own way of being with themselves, with the people on their teams, with their customers, that their values, their deepest heart values, you could say their deathbed values are embedded into every part of their organization. So that at the end it's a true multiple bottom line business. I mean that's the kind of language that I use, the multiple bottom lines. And that means that you're not just being profitable, you are being profitable, but you're considering the other ends that are equally important to you and in how your business contributes to the world and to the experience that you have working with people, how your heart is engaged with every step of what you're doing. And so at the end of the nine months, people get a degree from a division of NYU called Mindful NYU. And the entire nine month training is a partnership with LinkedIn, who's sending upwards of 150 people to the program. And also Wisdom 2.0, which is an event organization based in California, at the forefront of a conversation between people in technology, culture change and Wisdom leaders all together. So LinkedIn and Wisdom 2.0 are partnering with sounds true to put this Inter MBA on. And there are CEOs who are featured in the program like Rose Macario of Patagonia, Joey Bergstein who's the CEO of Seventh Generation, Eileen Fisher, Justin Kahn who founded Twitch, and then there's also Business trainers who are coming in and teaching these skills. Richard Strozzi, Heckler, who teaches conscious embodiment for leaders. Lisa Leahy, who wrote a book called Immunity to Change, which helps people come to the recognition of. We say we want to be different in this way or that way. You know, I don't want to interrupt so much at work or dominate in a meeting. We say the same thing year after year, but we don't change what's going on, what's our immunity to change? And then Otto Scharmer, who teaches you theory, a way of being more creative in business, all these business trainers. And then there's also wisdom teachers who are featured in the program. Some of our friends, Jack Kornfield, Tara Brock, Sharon Salzberg, Rhonda McGee. And that's the whole design of the program. And I'm excited about it. I'm excited about it because I think we need our businesses to be just and to be wholesome. And I think it's completely possible to be just wholesome and wholesome. You don't even hear that word very often, but I like it. Virtuous and profitable and we can do it, but we need to think differently. And it's not the kind of MBA training that most people get. Most people get certain external skills, but they're not getting the development of these internal wisdom based skills. And we need to bring both together.

Well, that's really fascinating. Sounds like a really exciting program. Will it blend the inner and the leadership qualities with some of the nuts and bolts that people would study at an MBA program, or is this more complementary to that kind of training?

Well, the nuts and boltsy part is that we'll have a section on conscious marketing. So how do you bring your values into how you market programs so that you're leading with authenticity and storytelling, brand storytelling that communicates the truth of who you are. There'll be a section on conscious money also, which is how do we have a relationship with money that also has our heart engaged that brings everybody with us. There'll also be a section on becoming a B corp and getting behind the B corp movement in business and other skills like that, including teamwork skills and communication skills and some of the things you were asking me, you know, how do you have those difficult conversations? Some people might say, well, that's not really a nuts and bolts thing, but I think it's. You can, you can get trained in how to have difficult conversations.

Oh, absolutely, yes.

And so, you know, there's a, there's some nuts and bolts even to that.

Well, that, that's just fabulous. And it can be such a contribution to really creating the kind of resilient society that, that we need and all the changes we need to make. And I love that you combine virtuousness and profitability. You know, I've worked a lot in the for profit world as consultant. I, I, and I, and I work a lot in the nonprofit world. And, and, and I really appreciate that that one part of the bottom line of profitability really drives a lot of creativity and innovation and it eliminates a lot of.

Waste. It just creates an environment where we have to really step up and at the same time to have that double or multiple bottom line where you have all these other values involved, that it's not just profitability, it's really kind of pointing to the kind of new capitalism that we need that can continue to drive innovation and build wealth and resources, but do it in a way that's actually sustainable for ourselves and for the planet. So that sounds like just a wonderful contribution and what a stellar faculty that you're putting together. So that's great.

Thanks, Fleet. Thank you.

So, Tammy, I would like to invite you, if you would, to. I know you are a meditation teacher besides being a CEO, so I'd love to have have you lead us in a brief resilience or meditative contemplative exercise of your choosing, if you would do that.

Sure. Well, you know, during this COVID 19 crisis, I've had to increase my intensity in relationship to my own practice life. When I gave that example at the beginning of being bandied about by like a leaf, I felt myself being bandied around like a leaf in the beginning. Like what is going on? What I mean, it's just so much accelerated inputs. And for me, the most important grounding in resilience came from feeling a tap root. And that's what I want to work on here with everyone and share, which is this opportunity to meditate in such a way that we actually feel that there's a root system, a taproot that we can draw on that goes deep down into the center of the earth. And so to begin, just imagine that you're breathing up in to your perineum, so your perineums between your anus and your genital area. And you can just imagine that a few feet below you, because this is really getting grounded. This is the, for me, the root of resilience. If you're breathing from three feet below on the inhale.

It'S like you feel a stream of energy coming up through your perineum and then back in front of the spine, traveling up your body on the inhale.

And then on the exhale, we can just let go and relax and let your body get a little heavier. So let's do this again. Starting 3ft below your seat. So it's a stream.

Of air that you can sense as you breathe in, coming in from below. So we're really getting rooted here.

And it comes in through the perineum, and then it travels back in front of the spine.

All the way up to the level of your heart, the back of your heart. And then exhale and feel your seat getting heavier, your shoulders dropping. So let's do it a couple more times from three feet below.

And you can feel that your inhale even gets a little stronger and deeper as you breathe in.

You're being supported and animated by this flow from below.

And then on the exhale, you're really just dropping everything. Any of your thoughts, concerns, worries.

And now let's breathe in. From 10ft below us, it's a stream of fresh energy coming in from below.

You just soften the gateway at the perineum, so that part of our body opens. There's a sense that the energy from below us, from the Earth, is actually even entering our body as we breathe in like this, all the way up to the level at the back of the heart.

So from 10ft below.

And we'll take it a couple more steps. Let's go from a mile below us. So you have to really let your awareness drop as if it's all the way from a mile below.

And then it's like a stream.

Earth energy comes up into our bodies in front of the spine.

And then finally, we'll breathe from the center of the Earth. So just imagine that all the way down into. From the center of the Earth, you can breathe a stream of energy.

That. This is a root for you, a tap root.

You can breathe all the way from that center in the earth, all the way up.

Through the open perineal gate, up into your body in front of the spine.

Up to the level of the heart, and then just release. So let's do one more breath from the center of the Earth.

Ah.

Oh, my goodness. That was wonderful. Absolutely.

I hope it wasn't too weird, Fleet.

No, no, it's great. It's great.

I used to work with perineal breathing quite a bit myself and haven't done it in a while. But Heartstream Institute, one of the two partnering hosts for this summit, are kind of three key points tagline. What we really focus on is becoming deeply embodied, heart centered and earth conscious. So this is like the perfect meditation for that. Absolutely wonderful.

Yeah. And I think feeling that energy from the earth supporting us, I mean, for me, that's been my own key for resilience.

Well, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much, Tammy.

Thank you, Fleet. It's great to be with you.

Yeah. And please stay safe and healthy there at home. We're all hunkered down at the moment, and, you know, by the time this airs in May, we may all still be on home confinement, but. Yeah, we'll all see what happens. But wishing you all the best. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

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