EP 115: The Science of Healing, Wellness & Willpower | Kelly McGonigal, PhD

Welcome to Radical Responsibility, the podcast dedicated to ridding the world of blame and shame, where we explore the issues you care about from a unique perspective. 100% ownership for each and every circumstance we face in life, day in and day out. In this episode of the Radical Responsibility Podcast, I'm very happy to share with you an interview I did with Kelly McGonigal, Ph.D. a health psychologist at Stanford University and best selling author of the Willpower Instinct and the Upside of Stress. We had the opportunity to explore really what is willpower and how can we transform our relationship to stress to see stress is not the enemy, but actually something we can leverage for our own personal evolution and optimizing our human possibilities. And we looked at how can we put our wiser self more in charge of our life. And we're here Today with Kelly McGonagall. How are you, Kelly?

I'm doing good, how are you?

I'm doing great. Great to have you here. Today's focus is on the science of change and the science of habit formation. And so we're really fortunate to have Kelly McGonagall who's, that's really her area of expertise. So I'm going to just tell our audience a little bit about you and then we'll jump right into the conversation.

Best selling author Kelly McGonigal, Ph.D. is a health psychologist and lecturer at Stanford University who is known for translating insights from psychology and neuroscience into practical strategies that support health and well, being. A longtime advocate of yoga, mindfulness and self compassion, Kelly is well known for a TED talk in which she really turned the tables on how we look at stress and relate with stress. And actually that led to one of her books called the Upside of Stress, a very important book which I encourage all of us to check out. And that TED talk is easy to find and it's a really wonderful TED talk, so check that out as well. Kelly's most recent book, the Joy of Movement, is a surprising science based book that doesn't tell us why or convince us why we should do exercise, but actually shows us how to fall in love with movement. So that's a really interesting approach and I, I haven't got the book yet, but I look forward to it and I think we'll talk about that maybe a little bit at the end of our conversation today. But another of Kelly's books is really at the heart of today's conversation. The Willpower Instinct. The Willpower Instinct. Kelly also has a couple of audio courses that are wonderful. One is on the neuroscience of change which we'll also be addressing today. And another is on the science of compassion. So, again, welcome, Kelly.

Thanks for having me here. And I have to say, I think that the metaphor or the analogy of falling in love is also, it really applies to a lot of behavior change, a lot of the things that we aspire to become in our lives. We could think a little bit about the process of falling in love as providing a roadmap and staying in love and staying in a committed relationship.

I think that's a wonderful analogy and a very helpful one. I'm sure we'll explore that a bit. And. And it really points to the vision of this summit altogether because I think so many of us try to make change in our lives from a place of not feeling okay about ourselves, and that sells us up for cycles of self shaming and so forth that I'm sure we'll get into. But coming from that place, instead of how could I just fall in love with thriving and growth and change and so forth. Yeah, I love that. So you did write a book called the Willpower Instinct, and it's called the Willpower Instinct, how self control works, why it matters, and what you can do to get more of it or get more. So I think we all struggle with a lack of willpower, especially when it comes to, you know, making and sustaining the healthy changes we'd like to make around diet and exercise and all the rest of it. And I know I certainly have struggled and. And so.

Maybe you could help us understand what exactly is willpower? It sounds like kind of a mysterious thing. And then how do we get more of it?

Yeah, I should say, I don't like, walk around in life saying, I've got willpower and self control. It's funny, when I wrote that book, partly we chose that word because there had been this huge survey by the American Psychological association that had asked people, what are the biggest barriers to making positive change in your life, to being who you want to be? And I remember, really stood out to me. The number one response was lack of willpower. And so I decided to teach this course at Stanford called the Science of Willpower. Because if people think that's the number one obstacle to becoming who they want to be, let's figure out what we know about this thing that people are calling willpower. So let me give you my definition, which is that willpower is the ability to make choices that are consistent with your values and your highest goals, even when some part of you wants the opposite, even when it's difficult, even when you're exhausted even when self doubt is present. And you know, a good way to think about willpower is when people, when people think about the changes they want to make or the behaviors they really struggle with, things that they feel addicted to, habits that they're trying to change, or things that they're putting off even though they want to do them. You, you can almost always find this kind of competition between different parts of yourself. So there's the part of you who wants it or wants the outcome of it, and there's a part of you who maybe doesn't want to tolerate the temporary discomfort of getting through it, or the part of you who feels anxious every time you think about it and decides to soothe your anxiety by giving into the negative habit or procrastinating. Maybe there's some part of you who's afraid if you change, you'll lose the support of people in your life who care about you. There's so many reasons. There can be a lot of different competitions going on. But the idea is that willpower is the ability to, even with that kind of internal struggle, to put the wiser self, the self mentor, the compassionate self in charge of as many choices as possible so that you end up connecting, committing to the things that matter most, the roles and relationships and goals that matter most. So in some ways you can think about willpower as. It's a kind of strength that comes from a clarity of knowing what you care about. The ability to tolerate discomfort, the ability to imagine a positive future, and the ability to find the energy and the courage to take those steps now to help create a better future, to. To grow into who you want to be. And the last thing I'll say is I, you know, to make it easier to talk about, we sometimes talk about willpowers having three. Three different powers. And a lot of people get hung up on the aspect of willpower that is saying no to something tempting like, no, I won't eat that, I won't smoke that, I won't drink that, I won't say that thing I want to say, I won't tweet that, or whatever. We think of this sort of rigid self restraint and often people are. People think of it as like, that's who I really am. And so they think of self control as being like, I will not express this true self who wants to eat that or wants to say that.

I consider that aspect of willpower won't power and we do need it. So it is a strength to be able to slow down, pause and not give into every Impulse. However, I actually am much more interested in some of the other aspects of willpower, which include literally I willpower. And that is, okay, there's self restraint, but there's also the ability to go, to say yes, to choose. This is what I'm giving my time and attention to. I will do this today. I will say this today. Even if saying it out loud makes me nervous. I will spend time on this today. I will give my energy to what matters most. I think of that as I willpower. Even if you're tired, even if you're scared, even if you're stressed. And then the last aspect, I call I want power. And without this, it doesn't matter how much self control you have. I want power is the ability to know what are the goals, roles and relationships that matter most to you. What are your core values? What are the principles you want to organize your life around so that you can make these choices that help you flourish and help you contribute to the world. That's I want power. It is also a strength. And, and it is. Since you mentioned that title, how do you get more of it? Well, the first place to start is clarity around what you want.

Wow, there's so much there and that's right at the heart of this summit because we're really hoping to encourage people to have permission to really figure out what they want. You know, a lot of us in some, you know, our cultural condition, we're not even comfortable really saying this is what I want. Right. And if we're not clear about what we want, we really can't get in a leadership position with our own life. So I love that. I want, I will. You know, the self sustain one though, does seem, seem pretty important to be able to delay immediate gratification, to be able to work towards longer term goals. But another thing you brought up was the identification. You know, I remember when I was trying to stop smoking, I fortunately I stopped in my mid-30s, I guess, and I had smoked for 15 years probably at that time. And I was trying to be a smoker who loved smoking, who loved that cigarette after a meal and so forth, who was trying to quit. And I tried and stopped trying. You know, I wasn't being successful. I've been trying for five years and wasn't successful. And I was finally successful when I embraced a new identity of being a non smoker that I really related to. I'm a non smoker, that's who I am. And the idea of smoking was like abhorrent. And that changed everything for me. So it seems like we often do work against ourselves by identifying. I really, the real me does want that piece of chocolate cake right now.

Yes. And it's not so I don't want to suggest that there is like some core essential real you that is unchanging and is always good. Actually, you know, something I think is so important is to recognize the complexity of human nature, that there is always going to be a part of us who just wants to feel better in the present moment that is so built into the DNA of being human. Actually, it's built into the DNA of being alive. If you're alive, you have an instinct to survive this moment, to avoid discomfort and pain and to gratify your desires. So that part will always be present. And there's no sort of part of us that we have to excise or fully suppress in order to make a change. And that's another really important idea. So when you were quitting smoking, I'm sure there was a part of that process. It's not like the cravings disappeared immediately or the desire to. I mean, people smoke for a lot of different reasons, but the desire to connect with others over a cigarette or the desire to clear your mind with a cigarette, there's so many things that needs that it might meet and that it wasn't like you flipped a switch and it turned off, but that it was.

This self identity, as you describe it, of being a non smoker that somehow allowed you to hold those things in a different container. And that's one of the things that when I think about what willpower is, it's not only in this moment can you distract yourself from the cigarette. That's a skill. But how do you even know that you want to distract yourself from that cigarette? And again, that is, I think, the most important step. And it does begin by asking yourself questions like, is there a change in my life that would really reduce some of the suffering that I'm dealing with? Or reduce my future suffering or reduce the suffering that I'm creating in the world for people I care about? Or is there a change in my life that I really believe would allow me to show up more fully as who I am? I mean, you had mentioned diet and exercise as something that people struggle with. And I know that that's true. And even just in terms of like that first step of it's not like your identity is I want to be.

A person who eats more vegetables. That's not necessarily the identity that people are moving towards with aspiration. Often it's you make those Changes because you are clear about the other roles and relationships in your life that matter to you. And it becomes very obvious that if you don't take care of your health, it's hard to show up in those roles and relationships as fully as you want to with energy, with vitality, with steadfast exertion, and with enthusiasm and all of that. Sometimes we need to figure out not only, like, what's the essential good of the change, but it's to see, you know, it's not that there's anything sort of morally true about whether or not you exercise, but if you choose to do it, you see how it changes who you are and what you're capable of. And that's the thing that you choose.

Yeah, absolutely. And it was certainly, it wasn't just a shift in identity for me. It was also really wanting to be healthy, and it was a concern about being able to be healthy for my life with my family and so forth. So I think, as you're saying, it's really important to get clear about what we want, but then to make it bigger in ourselves about how we show up and our capacity to be in our relationships and so forth.

Let me even just give you an example of a study that I think is really fascinating. So since you mentioned exercise, there's been some work looking at taking people who are pretty inactive who signed up for an experiment, not even knowing what the experiment was about, and they get there and they find out they have now been randomly assigned to try to increase their physical activity. So talk about starting from a place of maybe these people haven't even made any commitment yet to it at all. So they have been randomly assigned to try to increase their activity, they're given an activity tracker. And for some of them during this experiment where they're being told it's so important to exercise and here's how moving your body more is great for your mental and physical health. They were asked to think about the roles and relationships that matter most to them and just pairing them at the same time. They weren't even forced to make the leap to, okay, now do you understand why exercising more is going to make you better in those roles and relationships that you said are your core values? They didn't even make that link explicit. They simply joined the two together. Think about your values. And also, by the way, we want you to be more active. And then they left the experiment. And every day, or it might have been every other day, this was a few years ago this was published, but they would get text messages that reminded them of their values. And those people increased their physical activity so much more than people who were simply told to exercise more and then sent text messages reminding them to exercise more. And when they looked at what was happening in that first part of the intervention, they actually analyzed what was happening in people's brains while they were thinking about their values. And then being introduced information about exercise. And what you see is that the systems of the brain that encode what we value, what we reward became more active when people thought about those roles and relationships that are really important to them. And then it remained active as they got this information, thinking about exercise and the benefits of exercise and do I want to increase my activity? That somehow there was a linking within their nervous system, within their brains, between what I care about, who I want to be, and this new activity, this change that I might commit to. And so every time they thought about their values later on, it's like it was reactivating that goal or that commitment to move more again. This is so. I love that study. And I really think that this is why people, all day long, they'll want, like, but tell me the one thing to do, like, do I have to exercise for 10 minutes or 20 minutes? And in the morning or at night, like, well, let's just talk about your values. And I have a deep trust that when you are clear about that and then you start to think about changes you want to make in your life, if they are changes that truly are to your benefit, that will reduce suffering, improve well being, allow you to show up in your life, if they are good for that and you're clear about your values, it gets so much easier to make those changes.

Wow, that's great. So it seems like the pull in some ways is more powerful than the push.

Yeah, well, certainly. Who's doing the pushing?

It's very.

One of the least motivating motivations is when you feel an external pull. And there's actually research on this for all sorts of change. And by the way, I know that you're. That your series is going to be opening up to all sorts of change. It's very easy to talk about things that we consider exemplars of like healthy behavior, willpower, like not smoking or exercise. But of course, we're also talking about things like leaving an unhealthy relationship, you know, starting a new path in life, changing how you relate to your children. I mean, they're all, they all fall under the same kind of process. And people whose primary motivation is, I don't want to let other people down, or I don't want to be criticized by others, or I'm aware of the fact that I'm judged by others because of this behavior or that I want to change. What's really interesting is that it creates a very strong desire to change. And people confuse the desire to change with the ability to change. And I think this is a really important distinction. And I know we're going to talk about self criticism versus self compassion, but this is one of the key distinctions to understand that feeling bad and wanting to be different is not an energy that fuels change. It is a strongly aversive state that we often want to escape and feel stuck in. But that, that aversiveness, that feeling bad almost always pushes us further in the direction of whatever it is we're trying to change because there are coping strategies or it's easier to turn to what's habitual when we're feeling bad about ourselves or when we're feeling judged or excluded or shamed or stressed. And to understand that distinction that you cannot make yourself feel bad enough to change, that you can only make yourself feel bad enough to wish you could change, can be a real wake up call for a lot of people to say that, okay, I need to move away from that. And this is true, you know, if you're trying to change the behavior, your kids, of your spouse, of other people in society, you can't shame criticize people into, into change. Although sometimes it feels good when you're doing it too. Right. Sometimes that scratches an itch in you.

Yeah, absolutely. And it, you know, it's, it's kind of obvious, you know, that anything we do to make ourselves feel bad or anxious or it's just going to trigger our old habitual patterns. Right. Because those are the coping mix. So it's counterproductive. And you know, this. I mean, one of the extreme examples of this, Marshall Rosenberg used to talk about all the time of the way we deal with sex offenders in our society. We shame them, which just feeds their cycle of acting out. And of course, you know, that behavior terrifies us. So it's reasonable that we respond with all this fear and shaming. But the fact is it actually doesn't work.

Yeah, there is research on that specifically with sex offenders that not even external shame, but if they have a thought, the kind of thought that in the past might have led them to harm someone, the more strongly they experience shame after that thought, the more likely they are to take whatever the next step is in actually perpetuating that harm, which Is a really scary thing to even talk about. You know, most people don't even want to pretend that this is not even a reality happening in society, but to think about the fact that, that it's not only true for people who are doing harm, it's also true for people who are doing harm to themselves. So if when you have an impulse to smoke, the more shame you have for that impulse, the more likely you are to actually smoke or whatever the self harming behavior is as well. And I think that we are so scared of these impulses to harm others or to harm ourselves that often it is very difficult to imagine anything other than wanting to immediately vilify ourselves or others for even having that first impulse, when that impulse is the thing that actually we have the least control over. And so to put our judgment on the inner experience that arises for any number of reasons from trauma, from habit, from addiction, from suffering, that we so vilify that, that there's no space left to think about, okay, what do I care about more than giving into that impulse? What action do I want to choose to reduce harm for myself or for others? Who do I want to be? And it's a very tricky thing. People have these instincts towards self criticism and shame in the same way that we have this instinct towards shaming others. Because in some ways we're just terrified of those impulses and want to believe that there's a version of us in which we will never have any sort of harmful impulse.

Well, let's go further into that. I felt for a long time, just through my own work and my own personal path and so forth, that that shame is a really toxic human emotion. That's a strong identifier. You know, we all build a self structure to cope with life. And we do it very early in our, you know, infancy and going forward. And we make up our self structure whatever's around. And there's always shame. And for some of us there's way too much shame. And like sometimes I think we almost seek that hit of shame because it's like, I'm here, it's home in some way. Sadly for many of us, that that feeling of shame feels like home. It feels okay, I'm still here, I exist. And it becomes a really, it can become a powerful habit driver and then our tendency is to shame ourselves more or shame others more. And it's just so counterproductive.

Yeah, so. And it is, it has a really powerful energy to it as well. Even though it's not the energy that supports positive change, it Is. It's one of those emotions. I mean, in some ways shame is like grief. It's meant to serve a social function. It's. It's there to it basically it reveals how much we depend on other people. Shame. Shame is there to so, you know, terrify us into believing that we no longer belong, that we will, we will seek to understand the right way to be. And in small doses, you know, it's needed and it's related to other emotions that are much healthier. Like regret can be an extremely healthy emotion. It is actually related to emotions like the desire to connect and belong. And it's just, it's. It's a. It's poison when it's the dominant one. But it is, I think it's worth recognizing is another reason why it's so prevalent. Well, I don't think we'll ever. It's not like we are moving towards thinking about like titles of books like Shame Free Living. Well, I don't know. I don't know if that's possible. Self doubt Free living, Anxiety free Living. I have a lot of skepticism about full freedom from suffering. I guess I'm not.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I've used those kind of expressions myself. But I've come to believe that, you know, yes, those small doses of shame are very much an important part of our emotional landscape. And I actually think in some ways in early childhood, they actually trigger the whole thing of our development on some level. But unfortunately a lot of us get way too much of it. So let's explore that further. So what role does self judgment and self shaming versus self compassion and positive self talk or encouragement? How does that play out in our experience of having or not having the willpower to make and sustain the changes that we'd like to make in our life?

I think so the biggest distinction is that one between wanting to change versus having the energy to change. And if you think about the definition of compassion. So compassion is about recognizing suffering, feeling connected to the one who's suffering, a desire to relieve that suffering and the willingness to respond, the willingness to show up, the willingness to tolerate discomfort in service of reducing that suffering. That's compassion. And you can put it on the same page as loving kindness, which is really. It's about seeing the possibility of a positive future of wanting someone to be happy, of wanting someone to be healthy, of wanting to see someone thrive, flourish and contribute and use their strengths. So we've got loving kindness and compassion. We usually talk about it as feeling it towards others and maybe it's really easy to feel it for those we care about. And I think of them as being absolutely foundational to behavior change. They are fuel for what we're describing as willpower. Compassion itself is actually a tremendous source of courage. We know that when people are connected to the thoughts and feelings of compassion, it changes what's happening in your nervous system and in your body in ways that look identical to what psychologists call the physiological signature of willpower. That is, if you were to give someone a really difficult willpower challenge, like, let's say so for example, I'm afraid of heights. If you were to tell me that to raise money for charity, I had to bungee jump. Oh God, please don't anyone, nobody send me this offer. I'm not quite sure I want, I'm up for it yet. But let's say this were the case and I made a decision, I wanted to do this. And I'm sitting there and my heart is pounding. And what I need is to find a physiological and psychological state that says I'm choosing this moment of discomfort in order to do this greater good. That you'd actually see changes in my body and in my brain that reflect balancing of the nervous system. Increases in attention and focus activation of areas of the brain associated with thinking about what matters most, while dampening down areas of the brain that are producing those really strong impulses to avoid discomfort or seek gratification. It's happening throughout the whole body, every system of the body.

It looks like compassion is exactly what happens when people become aware of suffering and, and they move into a state of compassion rather than overwhelm or fear or anger or sadness. And so I think that compassion is itself this amazing energy for what we call willpower and self compassion is basically if you flip it on yourself, so recognizing suffering or self loving kindness. It really is about being able to see clearly that there are things in your life you might be doing or choosing that are causing pain or suffering. Or to have that vision for yourself of knowing that some kind of happiness or contribution or growth is possible, to be motivated by that and to be willing to show up and respond in ways that support that even though it might be difficult or there's some discomfort involved. And again, that's in total contrast to self judgment and self criticism and which tend to only amp up the desire to change. It's almost like if you were to put an animal in a cage. I used to take care of this feral cat and I tried to make it an indoor cat. And anytime I closed the Windows or closed the door. This very calm cat was, you know, went wild, like running around, flinging itself around because it didn't want to be trapped. I think that like feral trapped cat energy is what happens when we experience high levels of criticism or shame. You feel stuck and trapped and it's horrible, but you're still stuck and trapped. And self compassion and self loving kindness is often about opening a window, taking a breath, remembering what your options are. It's not about what people often fear because people are confused about who they really are. People often think self compassion or self kindness means you let yourself off the hook and you give in to only the most destructive impulses. Again, like we started this conversation, people sometimes fear that who they really are is the one who will never give energy to their goals or who will always, you know, choose the addiction. And that's, that's not true. We are these competing cells and we can strengthen the self who.

Takes care of ourself.

So is there any place.

For self criticism or where is the line between self criticism and self honesty?

I mean, not the ultimate motivator, but is there kind of a combination of motivations here? One, some that might be a little more on the so called negative side and others more on the positive side. That we put it all together and sets us up.

Think of this as like self inquiry, self reflection, self study with an attitude of discernment. You know, I think that and one of the reasons why, you know, I think of mindfulness as being one of the core foundations of change, is there's a quality of curiosity and acceptance that allows us to see how we contribute to the process of not changing or the process of giving into old habits. You know, one of the first things I usually have my students do if we were say doing a multi week science of willpower course, is everyone has their goal. And I say just this first week, could you not change anything? Could you just watch the process of how this is unfolding? I sometimes even have people make process maps, like here's the trigger, here's the thought, here's the feeling, here's what I say to myself, here are the situations that I find this is most likely to happen in. And just draw a big beautiful process map that reveals to you choice points. And it's not so much that it's about self criticism as in self honesty that allows you to see like, you know, what happens is I wake up and I say I'm going to do this. And then some part of me says I don't have the energy for it now and makes the failed prediction that I'll have more energy for it later. And when that time shows up, I say I'm too tired and I'll do it tomorrow. And I see that cycle and isn't that interesting. I. I'm really bad about predicting this. What would happen if as an experiment, I choose to not listen to that voice and see if making that choice gives me more energy. Let's see what happens. There's a kind of discernment and again, like I said, that there's nothing wrong with regret as an emotion that says I probably would have felt better about myself or.

I would have contributed more to that situation if I had done this. And it's okay to have that kind of that. You know, those negative emotions are fine when we have a basic confidence in ourselves that allows us to hold them. And we don't feel like every negative self thought or every discerning thought about our involvement in the process reveals something fundamentally broken about who we are.

I think that's just so important to me. It's really. There's a real equation, if you will, between developing that confidence in our innate goodness that we're not broken, that we don't need fixing. And the more confidence we have in that, then we can embrace greater self honesty. We have greater courage to really look at ourselves in the mirror and focus on these things. But when our confidence in that is thin, we tend to tip over into self shaming.

And having compassion for others can be a really important part of this process too, that, that if we bring some attention to what we judge most strongly in others, sometimes that's a clue to things that are barriers to change in our own lives as well. Because then when it shows up in ourselves, it becomes very hard to see clearly. So I think a lot of these things that we're talking about, like compassion and loving kindness, it is not so much that you only are trying to strengthen it for yourself or for others, that they really support one another. And you can kind of come in at it either way.

Yeah, I think that's one of the most profound psychological insights that what we see in others, especially with a critical eye, actually definitely has something to do with what's going on in ourselves and what we might want to look at. Absolutely. So, you know, I listened to your course, the Neuroscience of Change. I used to be a road warrior before COVID 19 hit. So I'm always listening when in the drives and around a car, I'm listening to audible and so forth with my cell Phone. And I listened to your whole course, the Neuroscience of Change. I found it extremely helpful. And in there, you know, that was very. I love that you're going back and forth. It was really an integration of current neuroscience with the ancient wisdom traditions that you've been studying and practicing in for so many years. And you talked about four things that you're emphasizing that you've been talking about here. Mindfulness, acceptance, self compassion, and courage. And I'm wondering if you could say more about how they actually intersect with current neuroscience. And. And is there. I'm sure it's more complex than this, but is. Is there an identifiable neurobiology or markers of willpower? You know, in other words, does it show up on an MRI or something where that person has more willpower than someone else?

Sort of, yes. So because willpower is so complex, the best thing that you can kind of look for is you give people willpower challenges. And then you look at what unfolds in the brain when they make a choice that is consistent with what they say their values and their goals are, versus when they make a choice that is inconsistent with that. So there are studies that look at challenging people who want to quit smoking with images and opportunities to smoke, people who say they want to eat healthier and giving them actual choices about what to eat, giving people choices who say they want to save money and be financially secure about getting more money now or delaying for more money later.

And then you could also think about willpower challenges as things like asking people to focus their attention on something and watching what happens when the mind wanders. You know, there are lots of different versions of willpower. And one of the things that I think is most exciting, this is actually not in the neuroscience of change, because this is a view that, by the way, is totally consistent, though, with everything that the general principles of mindfulness and courage and all of that. This new thinking is. It used to be people thought what was happening in the brain during willpower was like a literal competition of selves. And so there's like the self who wants to choose, let's say the healthy eating. And you've been given a choice between chocolate cake and a cocoa avocado mousse, which is healthier and actually quite tasty if anyone wants to learn how to make it. So you're given that choice. And people used to think there's, like, a part of your brain that wants the cake and it's going to scream loud. And there's a part of your brain, the prefrontal cortex, that Wants to choose health.

And.

And it's like they're fighting. And it's the one that is activated the most strongly who wins. That was the dominant paradigm for a long time. As long as anyone's making hypotheses about willpower. So what is emerging now, which is so beautiful, is that it's not like it's a literal battle between the, like the amygdala or the reward system and the prefrontal cortex of self control. What's happening is when people make the choice that is consistent with their stated goals and values. Because, by the way, your willpower choice could be to eat the cake. Maybe you're someone who struggled with eating disorders or shame around food. It is completely plausible that your stated willpower choice could be, I want the cake, I'm choosing cake. And joy. And this is, this is. So let's just be clear, it could be either. But for most of the people in the study, it's not the cake. So what they see emerging in the brain is this strong co activation and of what you could think of as the value system of the brain. And it includes the reward system and includes areas of the prefrontal cortex. It includes areas of the brain that remind you what you care about and what it looks like is there's this coordinated effort of the brain to help you remember that in this case for you, the avocado mousse holds more value than the chocolate cake does, even though there's part of you that thinks the cake would be delicious. And all of the things that you've thought about in terms of wanting to feel good about yourself for making a healthy choice, that momentary pride thinking about, actually, when I pay attention to healthy food, I actually enjoy the actual experience that gets encoded in the brain. Wanting to be healthy and have energy to play with your kids, that gets encoded in the brain. So that literally when people look at the healthy choice, it's not just the small part of the reward system that says, eat me, eat me, I'll taste good. It's the big reward system that puts you on the path to choosing the thing consistent with your goals. And I don't know if that's like, if I could. I don't know if I've really made clear how, how. What a nice.

Difference that is between the prefrontal cortex, you know, reward system, let's see who wins. I need to just focus and find my willpower. It's, you have to remember. You have to remember. And so why mindfulness? One of the great definitions of mindfulness is to remember. And the way that I often teach mindfulness is what are you trying to remember who and what you really care about, what your core values are, what your ethics are, and to have them so fully present in your mind that they are available there to orchestrate this beautiful remembering that sets you up to choose the thing that is consistent with your values.

We should talk about courage, too, I should say, by the way, because I feel like courage is an undervalued aspect of willpower.

Well, as you've talked about courage, I'm reminded of your TED Talk where you talked about the neurobiology of shifting. How we relate with stress actually gives us a physiological neurobiological profile that's the same as courage. And you talked about the role oxytocin plays in that and so forth. So, yeah, I think it's really important thing to talk about.

Yeah. There are lots of versions of courage we can have in our bodies. And often what we choose to think about in the moment, what we choose to be mindful of, can change what's happening in the body at the level of what's happening in your cardiovascular system, your immune system, your brain, your hormones in a way that can give you courage. And it's true that in the stress field, one of the things that we know is that if you're feeling really stressed, of course that can give rise to anxiety, paralysis, freeze response, overwhelm, despair, things that shut you down, that don't feel like courage. And we know that bringing to mind the awareness that you aren't alone in this stress can begin to change your biology in ways that create courage. So it could be as simple as thinking about, well, there are people in my life who care about me and support me and thinking about them, it could mean thinking about other people in the world who are dealing with something similar, and that this is part of the human experience that literally just you aren't alone in whatever you're struggling with. It could be the insight that there are people who've been through this and have wisdom, they've gotten through it, they have lessons. There are people who will be happy to share those insights and lessons and support you through this. There's the insight that there you can team up, that there can be collective action, that not everything that's wrong in your life or the world is a do it yourself challenge, that sometimes it's a do it together challenge. Literally, I'm talking about thinking things. Just a mindset reset can begin to.

Increase the relaxation of your blood vessels to get more Energy to your muscles can decrease inflammation throughout your body because you feel less threatened in this kind of. I'm alone and I need to protect myself. It changes activation in the brain. That dampens down the fear circuitry and activates the hope circuitry, which, by the way, is the exact same circuitry I was talking about when I was talking about willpower, the deep reward system and its connection with the distributed reward system, which includes the prefrontal cortex and the parts of your brain that both regulate harmful impulses and push you towards positive action. That's like the distributed reward system that becomes activated in moments of feeling connected to others or moments of feeling compassion. These things are. This is. I think, you know, one of the things to think about is if you think of them as energy systems that allow you to engage with life. Courage, compassion, kindness, connection to your values. These are really energy systems that allow you to engage.

So you mentioned mindset. That's something I wanted to bring up. But first, you know, as I'm listening to you, you know, this older model of the brain, very compartmentalized, one part against the other part. And what I hear you describing sounds more like this much more holistic view of our brain and neuroscience. And that when. When we work with our brain and get into the flow of the way that ideally operates, there is some kind of flow that really supports us in thriving and being able to make these changes. And then there's a kind of dysregulation that happens. So we're either. The brain is either moving to some kind of dysregulation where all of our negative emotions getting triggered and our less healthy habits, and then we can get back into this flow. And when you were talking before about love, it seems like when we're in love, there's something about that flow, right?

Well, you gotta be careful what stage of love you're in. If you're in the infatuation stage, you can have a whole lot of that hope circuit going on. I don't know, it's not. I mean, it's not always the most balanced state. Right.

Qualify what we mean by that.

But you're talking about an energy state that pushes you to engage with life. When you're in love, it just. But it's pushing you to one thing in particular, which is why I like using that analogy of falling in love with behavior change. Because often what you need when you're making a change is, is this kind of wholehearted commitment. Like, I'm not going to tiptoe in. It's. I'M going to fall in love with. With yoga or running. And I'm going to like. Like, that's. That's who I am and what I want. Like, it's just, you know, sometimes that's easier than the. It. Even though it requires more of you, it's easier than people try to. Like, so many people try. It's like they're trying to dive into the pool, but they insist on just poking a finger in. Like, that's the same thing as diving into the pool. Like, I hate exercise, but I'm going to do it for five minutes a day. And then like the whole. The whole life is structured around insisting that they hate exercise anyway. So that's. But yes. So this idea that the brain can be sort of dysregulated or in flow. I had to think about this as you described it, because part of me. Part of my reluctance to immediately say yes to that hypothesis is, is that I really want to destigmatize all of these states of mind we have that we don't want. Like, when we are overwhelmed by negative emotions. And the idea that, like, we have to get back to some other state of the brain in order to be whole and healthy. And we have. I know that this is a. It's not that that's not possible, but I think that there is. You know, we talk about mindfulness and truly opening to what's present.

Part of it is, you know, I know that. So, for example, if I. If I receive feedback that lets me know that I let others down, that is excruciating for me, whether it's a family member or in a teaching situation where people were dissatisfied with my teaching.

This is so painful. But what I've learned is that I cannot try to fix that pain cycle by hurting less. That what I have to do is move through it and make room for it in order to acknowledge how much I deeply care about these roles and these relationships. And there's. It's almost like what's regulated is not the absence of the pain, but bringing in, as you were describing.

It'S that more distributed or integrated. I have to keep alive the part of my mind that has some perspective on this, that also can breathe and also is beginning to understand that at some point in the future I'll have learned something from this. But it's not about escaping that pain point in order to feel better right away. So, no, I like the hypothesis, but also I'm reluctant to even go to that point of, like, if you're feeling this, your Brain is dysregulated. So do this to regulate your brain. You know, that kind of. As soon as you hear that kind of language.

Well, it's a really interesting point, especially you bring up mindfulness. So certainly values of mindfulness are befriending and embracing and developing the best to simply be with what is. With compassion and self compassion. But I have found that some people in the mindfulness. So this came up with our prison work where, you know, we're, we're trying to really provide tools to prisoners so they can make some changes in their life, because otherwise they're going to keep repeating patterns that, you know, they're not so happy being in prison. So. But I find some people in the mindfulness world because there's so much to focus on befriending and allowing and embracing that they're almost allergic to the notion of change. Like, did you bring up the word change? And they're like, oh, that's aggressive. You know, you know, like anything, we can go too far in either direction. Right?

But, but change is aggressive. Let's be aggressive. Be, be aggressive. There's actually also nothing wrong with a little bit of assertive, aggressive energy. No, I understand what you mean. That's like, that really is what it is. It's about holding these opposites. And actually, I think one of the most important mindsets that I started, the neuroscience of change, if you remember by talking about how everything is always changing at the level of your cells in your body, everything is always changing. And so you can choose to play a role in guiding change. And also what I talk about a lot with stress and trauma, is you can also choose to play a role in how experience changes you. So change is always happening and you can't tightly control the process to the degree that most of us would like to. So that's where the mindfulness comes in. You can't control every aspect of your inner and outer experience.

It is very hard to control every thought, choice and word. But we can make these commitments to guiding the process of positive change, where we put our energy and attention and knowing that positive change is possible and at the same time all the things that we feel like are harmed us and our lives in these negative ways. There's a mindset that says even if those experiences objectively not good, created harm for myself and others would. Would remove them if I could, that even those same experiences, there's something in us that is fundamentally human, that has the capacity to move forward and make some meaning out of it, to allow it to Activate something good in us. That's the mindset that really makes change possible.

Yeah. You know, the wisdom traditions point that there is no real solid construct there, but it does really seem to make a big difference how we do think about ourselves and think about the situations, the mindset that we bring to situations. So before we finish, Kelly, could you maybe talk just a little bit about your new book and maybe what inspired you to write this? And I'm sure that I know movements played a big role in your life and, and maybe how this is part of how you've understood to actualize yourself in your life and the way that you feel you can thrive. And I'm sure your book is an expression of that in some way.

Yeah. So the Joy of movement is about how moving our bodies gives us access to so many of the core human joys, whether it's connection, cooperation, mastery, growth, music, celebration, positive challenge, being in nature, all of these ways that we experience basic human joy. Physical activity seems to be uniquely linked to our capacity to experience those things. It's like physical activity awakens our capacity for each of them. And so the book is about, not like you should exercise and do 10 push ups or something like that. It's like, why? Why when you walk or run, does it change your brain chemistry in ways that actually make it easier to connect with other people? Why is it that when you lift something heavy, it transforms your sense of self so that you can literally sense your own strength and then face challenges in your life with a greater sense of confidence? Why is it that when we move with other people, whether through sports or rowing as a team or dancing together, why is it that that builds community and trust and can also make us feel less alone in whatever challenges we're facing? So it really is looking at, not like trying to convince you to exercise for your health, but to understand that there's something about movement and moving your body in whatever way you can that unlocks a lot of these joys. And when I say moving your body whatever way you can, I really mean it. So a lot of my favorite examples in the book, a dance class for people with Parkinson's disease, which is a neurological disorder that slowly decreases your ability to physically move. A boxing gym where people are dealing with paralysis, amputations, traumatic brain injuries, stroke survivors, people who are dealing with severe grief, people who are dealing with severe depression and anxiety disorders. We're talking about physical or mental challenges that can make it difficult to move. Not only even then, but especially then, that movement and finding a way to Move in a way that feels good to you or that activates some part of you that you value.

That it unlocks our capacity for hope and resilience and joy. So that's what the book is about. And actually, I know like you had mentioned you were going to ask me a question about willpower too. And so let me share a story with you about how movement and willpower sort of have come together in a funny way in my life.

So when I think about the challenges of willpower that I have, some people have a lot of trouble with the self restraint. And I've always had more challenge with the self go because of anxiety or self doubt. So I'm much more likely to delay, to not do things that are important because they bring up anxiety. So I've had to really work on the courage aspects. And one of the things that was a major willpower challenge for me was dealing with the fear of flying. So for years and years I refused to fly. I had a few early flights, very traumatic flying experience, and then I was like done with it. And for years I didn't fly. I didn't see family members as often as I wanted to. I couldn't visit places. It was just, it was not good for my life and it was inconsistent with my values. Trying to help other people, you know, in the field of psychology. And there was this thing in my life that I was letting control me that felt completely incompatible with my values. So I decided I was going to deal with this and start flying again. One of the things that is really important for any sort of change is to figure out what is the inner experience that you hate so much. You are making choices to avoid or escape it that are self destructive. And for me with flying, it was that feeling of being trapped, being unable to breathe, my heart pounding, maybe feeling sick and not being able to escape. I didn't want that. And I couldn't just practice it by getting on planes. I would have a panic attack thinking about it. There was no way to practice it. So I thought, where else have I felt that? And I remembered going to some indoor cycling classes years before and hating every minute of it. Now I love movement, but I hated indoor cycling. I felt exactly that way. There was no ventilation, I couldn't breathe. I felt trapped. I was on a bike. I literally couldn't go anywhere. It was practically like the instructor locked the door and said, now you must suffer. And I hated every minute of it. I thought, great, I'm going to start indoor cycling and I am going to sit on that bike, and every minute on that bike, I'm going to imagine, if I can handle this, I can handle being on a plane. And I'm going to choose to stay in the room and breathe through this. And I developed all these interesting coping strategies in indoor cycling classes that within a year, I was able to be on a plane again and apply those strategies. I learned to tolerate the discomfort. And there was even a stranger intersection than that. I found one of the most useful things I could do when I was starting to feel panic on a plane was listen to music from indoor cycling classes. And I had these playlists on my iPad and ipod, and then on my phone, I still do this. When we hit really crazy turbulence, I put on indoor cycling music. And it brings me back to that place of physiologically, I'm choosing this. I'm choosing this. That allows me to not control the experience, but connect to that part of me who remembers why I'm even choosing this in the first place. And then here's the thing that is the strangest about all of this is because I was so clear, I think, about why I was doing it. I started to experience those negative sensations in the cycling class as courage, and I started to feel good about myself, and I fell in love with indoor cycling, and I got certified to teach indoor cycling.

So that sort of ties together all of that, which is that sometimes willpower is about figuring out how to endure, rather than control, all of your inner experiences, being clear about what matters most. And when you do that, sometimes you end up falling in love with the thing that you think that you hate, because it is revealing something wonderful about yourself.

That's amazing. I mean, it points to the fluidity of how we think about ourselves and identity, because we could be. I'm a person that just hates cycling. I'll always hate cycling. And you completely.

I don't know if you'll always hate it. Maybe we just need to find the right metaphor for you.

And.

Analogous to so many things, because. And it's really what this summit is really all about. Because as we go through life, you know, we start off with children with these bright eyes and uninhibited and fearless, and then with the bumps and bruises of life, we. Our life gets smaller and smaller, and there's all kinds of things we avoid, because whatever, for whatever reason, we've collected these negative experiences and traumas. And, you know, it can get. You know, we can get to where we're even. It can lead to something like agoraphobia, painfully for some people. And so about how do. How do we reopen that window of tolerance, that zone of resilience? And that's such a beautiful example. And that could apply to just about everything we're talking about in this summit. How we can reopen our lives and begin to thrive in ways that work. Yeah. Wow.

Beautifully said.

Thank you so much, Kelly. This has been absolutely fabulous, and I know it's going to be really valuable.

For our summit, and it's going to stimulate lots of other conversations. There's just so many threads here that connect into what this summit's all about. So thank you so much.

From Adams Morgan to Anacostia park, we all want safer neighborhoods. But what does real safety mean? Real safety means preventing crime before it happens by having police work with communities to disrupt cycles of violence by supporting families with stable housing and providing more mental health and drug treatment. We know that adding more police and locking up more people doesn't make us safer. Real safety means investing in the things that help prevent crime. Learn more at Real Safety dc. Step into the world of power, loyalty, and luck.

I'm gonna make him an offer he.

Can'T refuse with family. Cannolis and spins mean everything.

Now you wanna get mixed up in the family business? Introducing the Godfather at Chompa Casino. Com.

Test your luck in the shadowy world.

Of the Godfather slots. Someday I will call upon you to do a service for me. Play the Godfather now at chumbacasino. Com. Welcome to the family.

No purchase necessary VGW Group.

Void where prohibited by law, 21/ Terms and Conditions apply.