EP 138: Vitality and Joy Through Whole Foods | Ocean Robbins

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Care about from a unique perspective. 100% ownership for each and every circumstance we face in life, day in and day out. Hi, welcome to the Radical Responsibility Podcast. My name is Fleet Maul, your host and I have the pleasure of sharing with you today a conversation that I had with Ocean Robbins from the Food Revolution Network. Ocean Robbins is from the famous Baskin Robbins family Baskin Robbins ice cream. His father, you know, took a major left turn from the family lineage and became a proponent of eating healthy foods and plant based foods. And Ocean has followed up on that and he teaches still with his father. And Ocean has created this huge community and has a really powerful annual summit and all kinds of other programs about, you know, eating healthy and transform.

Through the food we eat and really enhancing the vitality and joy we can experience every day through eating whole foods and plant based foods. And I can't think of any greater authority on this subject than Ocean Robbins. I had the pleasure of meeting Ocean Robbins Probably 20 years ago when he was quite young and he was a very well known youth activist at that time. And now several decades later, he heads up the Food Revolution Network and is making a huge difference for so many people and really becoming much more cons about what we put in our bodies, how we prepare that food, how we gather that food, and so forth. So enjoy this episode with Ocean Robbins from the Food Revolution Network.

Welcome, Ocean.

Thank you so much, Fleet. It is a true privilege to spend this time with you.

Yeah, I really been looking forward to this. So it's so great to have you involved in the summit and I've been following your work for quite a while. So I'm going to share some of your bio and then we'll jump into the conversation. Sound good?

Yes.

Great. So Ocean Robbins is the CEO and founder of the 500,000 member Food Revolution Network, one of the largest communities of healthy eating advocates on the planet. He has held hundreds of live seminars and events that have touched millions of lives from 190 nations. Ocean is founder and was director of the nonprofit YES which has led transformational events for 650,000 leaders in 65 nations. He's a recipient of the National Jefferson Award for Outstanding Public Service, the Freedom's Flame Award, the Harmon Wilkinson Award, and numerous other honors. Ocean has served as adjunct professor for Chapman University and on the boards of Friends of the Earth, Creating Our Future, Tipping Point Network, Turning Tide Coalition, and many other organizations. Olson's grandfather founded Baskin Robbins and the ice cream company. And his father, John Robbins, walked away from the family company and ice cream fortune to write bestsellers including Diet for a New America and to become a renowned health advocate. Now Ocean is on a mission to transform the industrialized food culture into one that celebrates and supports healthy people on a healthy planet. And he's inviting you to join this food revolution. And we're collectively inviting everyone in our audience to join that revolution today. So Ocean's been seen by hundreds of millions in tv, radio, online and in person appearances.

So we briefly knew each other way back when you started yes, in the early days of yes. When you were a prominent youth activist. And a lot, a lot has happened since then for both of us who.

Are helping bring contemplation and.

Mindfulness practices into prisons and into some really challenging environments.

Yeah, and we're still doing that, still doing that as well as these summits that we're doing. So.

Yeah, we'll jump right into the conversation. This is day two on the summit focused on health and well being. And we actually have two days on this 10 day summit focused on health and wellbeing because it's so foundational and clearly, you know, what we eat, the food that we eat is critical to our health and well being, but it also affects so much of life, the food production systems and food distribution systems. So it's one of the places where we can all be activists by the choices that we make in what we eat and can help transform the world in that way. I know that's really, really the focus of your work. So I'm really excited to explore this. So you come from a pretty unique family. Your grandfather, as we mentioned in your bio, founded an ice cream company, well known called Baskin Robbins. I certainly grew up with it. It was the big brand when I grew up. And.

You know, so I can relate with that. And you can.

You know, you have an interesting history. Your father walked away from that business and then now you followed along with your father and you and your father still do courses together and so forth and you've both written books. So can you tell us a little bit about that family background and you know, how that informs your work today?

Well, absolutely. So, you know, my dad grew up with an ice cream cone shaped swimming pool in the backyard and 31 flavors of ice cream in the freezer. He was groomed to one day join in and running the family company. But when he was in his early 20s, he was offered that chance and he said no. And he walked Away from a path that was practically paved with gold and ice cream, to, as we joke keenly, say in our family, follow his own rocky road. And he ended up moving with my mom to a little island off the coast of Canada where they built a one room log cabin, grew most of their own food, practiced yoga and meditation for several hours a day, and named their kid Ocean. And they almost named me Kale, by the way. Way before kale was cool, but we did eat a lot of kale, as well as cabbage and carrots and onions and other veggies from the garden. As I got a little older, we moved to California, and my dad wound up writing a book called Diet for a New America, which inspired millions of people to look at their food choices as a chance to make a difference on the planet. And, you know, the media had a lot of fun with the story. They called him the rebel without a cone and the prophet of nonprofit. And as fate would have it, one of his readers ended up being my grandpa Irv. Now, my grandpa Irv had lost his brother in law and business partner, Bert Baskin, to heart disease when my dad's uncle bert was just 54 years old. And now my grandpa, at the age of 69, was on a very similar path. He had serious heart problems, weight problems, type 2 diabetes. His doctors told him he didn't have long to live unless he made some big changes. And that's when they gave him a copy of my dad's book and suggested he read it. Amazingly enough, my grandpa did, and he followed its advice. And he ended up slashing his consumption of animal products, eating way more vegetables, cutting out sugar, giving up ice cream, and he lost a bunch of weight. He reversed his heart disease, he reversed his diabetes, and he lived 19 more healthy years. And so we've really seen in our family that when we follow the standard American diet, we get the standard American diseases, as happened to my dad's Uncle Bertram. And we've also seen what can happen when we make a change, as my grandpa manifested so amazingly. And in my own life, I was inspired by my grandpa's business achievements and the fact that he could make such an impact, by my dad's legacy of integrity and values and showing that some things are more important than in life, than just the almighty dollar. And by my grandpa's willingness to learn a few new things and make some changes. You know, he had a lot of investment in thinking that there's no connection between food and health. He'd manufactured and sold more ice cream at that time than any human being who has ever lived on this planet. And he was willing to give it up because he wanted to live. And if he can make a change like that, then maybe there's hope for the rest of us, too, that we could make some changes and make a difference. So I started the nonprofit, as you mentioned earlier. Yes. And worked with young leaders around the globe in 65 countries and ran that for 20 years. And as I worked with people all over the planet, I saw that everybody eats and that what we're eating is having this huge impact. And that eventually led me to decide to focus directly on food. So in 2012, I joined with my dad in launching Food Revolution Network. Our mission then, as now, is healthy, ethical, sustainable food for all. We really want to change the way the world eats so that food can be an opportunity to bring our lives into congruence with our core values and with what we really want for our lives. You know, most people want to be healthy, most people want to be happy, and most people want to be a part of the solution on planet Earth. And with your food choices, you have that opportunity three times every day. The status quo is a toxic food culture, but the opportunity here is to do something different and reap tremendous benefits.

Fascinating story and really inspiring and encouraging for all of us. So what year did your father walk away from the opportunity to take that golden path and moved to the island? What year was that?

Well, that was like, 1967 was when he walked away, and by 69, he and my mom were living on the little island in the middle of the woods.

And then he wrote his book, Diet for a Small planet, in the 80s, I think.

Die for New America. Yeah, that came out.

I'm sorry, that's a different book. I'm sorry, I've confused those. No problem.

Frances wrote Diet for a Small Planet. Also a huge bestseller.

Exactly.

A lot of people. And now she's a dear friend of mine.

Diet for a New America. So it's written around 87, I think, right?

Yeah.

And when did you found the food revolution network?

2012.

So you've been at that for a while as well, right? About 10 years. Yeah. So you've kind of pointed this already, but what inspired you to call it the Food Revolution Network? And, you know, this idea of revolution. Could you go a little further with that?

Oh, for sure. So, you know, we live in a. In a culture where junk food is subsidized, it's mainstreamized, it's advertised, it's normalized, and it's killing us, you know, the way I look at it, Food 1.0 is about survival. If you can get enough calories to fill your belly, that is success. And for most of human history, and actually for a majority of humans on Earth today, that is the central goal of food. But food 2.0, which is more than norm in the industrialized world, is governed by commerce. It's. It's about the buying and selling of goods, and it's brought us lots and lots of taste and texture and cuisine from all over the planet. It's. It's driven down the price, especially for the highly processed foods. But unfortunately, it's morally without a compass and it's bankrupt from a moral standpoint, and it's killing us and it's killing our planet. Industrialized agriculture has become the most environmentally destructive force on the planet. It's a central driver of climate change. It's destroying our forests, it's destroying our water supplies. It's, you know, 80% of our water is being used for agriculture, and the vast majority of that is going into industrialized animal agriculture, what many people call factory farms. And so we're now calling for food 3.0, which is governed by health. And there are plenty of healthy profits in Food 3.0, it's just that they come from healthy food. And in Food 3.0, we focus on the foods that nourish our bodies and that are good for our planet, that are in alignment with our ethics. And, you know, what we find is that when you're really healthy and, well, you have so much more pleasure. So at the end of the day, that's what I really want. My purpose in life is to bring more love and more joy into this world. And to me, food is an incredible opportunity to do that because there's so much pleasure that comes from having healthy circulation in your body, from having clarity in your mind, from having bounce in your step and energy and a reason to live. You know, they say that the two most important days of your life are the day you are born and the day you discover why you were born. Well, I would assert that you cannot discover and live while you were born without your health at some level. Now, obviously, if you're struggling, you still find your best way to fulfill your purpose in that context. But it's so much easier when you have your faculties and when you have your wholeness in your body. And so healthy food is a way to better be able to do what you were born to do. To live your life, to live your love, to live your purpose. And when you have the nutrients you need for your brain to work, for your body to work. You're creating the conditions for success. And so that, to me, is the point of the food revolution. Some people think healthy food is a lesson in. In.

Suffering. Like, oh, you're just going to give up all the things that bring you pleasure. Right. Why should I give up the few places of pleasure in my life so I can extend a miserable existence longer? Right. But the truth is so different from that. When you have vitality and energy and joy, then you want to live and you want to eat the foods that help you live. And that's the transition I want to help people make so that we cease to be addicted to the. The products of a toxic food culture and start to become agents of aliveness and joy and delight.

Well, what you're talking about is revolution on so many levels. And what you were just pointing to changing our mindset around healthy food. Right. You know, because we've all been encultured in the idea healthy food is not going to taste as good, it's not going to be as much fun as something you do to be good or to suffer. Right. And to really change that mindset and. Absolutely. I mean, obviously healthy food can be incredibly enjoyable, but also, having our health, what's a greater source of joy in our life than our health and vitality? And, you know, you're up against what, you know, you spoke to that, what you're calling Food 2.0, this industrialized food production system and distribution, huge economic force. Right. So taking that is very revolutionary. Right. And, you know, it's. Hopefully one of these days we'll look back and will regard that in many of the ways that we regard the tobacco industry.

Right.

Because it was something that was commonly accepted and a lot of people working at it, they're just earning a living. Even the founders of it, like your grandfather, they weren't intentionally creating harm. But now we know that these kind of foods are not good for us. And the current industry is not quite ready, even if they recognize that, to give up, obviously, the force of that economic momentum. So it is very revolutionary. And we can all make that revolutionary choice to eat differently. Absolutely. So you've written a book, 31 Day Food Revolution. So 31. Some connection to your family history there. But, you know, so how. How is this book different from, you know, other food and diet books that are out there, the 31 Day Food Revolution?

Well, my goal with 31 Day Food Revolution was to show a path to implementation because, you know, cancer, heart disease, Alzheimer's, type 2 diabetes, they don't care a heck of a lot how many books you read or how much you know, they care what you do and how you live and the choices that you make. And so I'm interested in helping people apply what we know so they can get the results that they want. And so 31 day food revolution walks folks through step by step. So every chapter ends with simple action steps you can take to apply what you've just learned. Part one focuses on detoxifying. It looks at all the bad stuff and how we get get it out of our lives. And then part two is nourish. And it focuses on how we say yes to the good stuff. The, the real superfoods, not, you know, high priced, you know, exotic, you know, Incan berries, but actual superfoods like cabbage and quinoa and legumes that are super because they can do the most good for the most people. They're affordable, they're super nutritious and they're sustainable. And when you know what to do with them, they can taste great. And then part three is gather. And that's where we focus on the social side, because it's very hard to sustain any endeavor in life totally on your own. You need a sense of belonging, a sense of community, a sense of sangha, a partnership, somebody to uplift you when you fall, somebody to inspire you to move forward, somebody just to share ideas with. And so a lot of us feel, I think, lonely in the modern world and we fear that if we give up, the normalized foods will be even more lonely. So I'm trying to remove that barrier and turn it into a positive by showing how you can build your community and your sense of web of belonging around healthy food and also be, by the way, an example to others. So you inspire other people on the path. And then part four is transform. And that's where we look at the political and the systemic side of food. Because the truth is that we don't exist in a vacuum. And when you identify as a food revolutionary, you don't just change your own life, you actually change systems and policies and practices. And we look at the fact that where is our water going? Why are our rainforests falling? What about the planet? What about topsoil? How can we practice regenerative agriculture so we actually sequester carbon in the soil? And how do we preserve water for future generations? Because billions of people are threatened by starvation on account of droughts and aquifer depletion, groundwater depletion around the world. Within the next generation. And we're looking at how with the change in agricultural practices and consumer choices, we can actually have enough water for future generations by changing what we eat. So we look at all that stuff and we show how you can be as part of the solution on planet Earth. And I think that put your own oxygen mask on first before helping others, but then absolutely, by all means help others. Right? And so in 31 day food revolution, my real goal is to help a whole generation of humans to get our own health together with healthy food and then to change the food system so that healthy food becomes accessible and affordable so we stop subsidizing the wrong foods. Right Now, Twinkies has 14 subsidized ingredients, broccoli has none. But which should we be eating? What should our government be supporting? Right? So we look at those kinds of things and how we can start to create systemic change. So that's the goal of 31 day food revolution. Heal your body, feel great and transform your world. I'm happy to say it's a bestseller and of course it's available widely. But at the end of the day, it's not just a book. It's also, of course, my message.

Well, and I want to talk more about the four stage, the transformational aspect, both for us individually and collectively. But so it's a 31 day. So there is actually kind of a 31 day program. If somebody's wanting to make change, they started on day one, day two. You're actually providing that kind of pathway in the book.

Yes, I will say that the pathway is fluid and flexible to every person. So yeah, you could read a chapter a day. Every chapter has specific action steps you can take that day. And then there's sort of like four weeks, which is like the four, the four sections that I described. But you can also go at your own pace. You can read it all in a weekend and then implement three of the chapters or ten of the chapters. And there's recipes so you can really do it how you want to. But yes, you can absolutely do one a day for 31 days. And you know, yeah, you're right that 31 was chosen rather intentionally because at the end of the day I'm saying that 31 steps to health in the long run can bring you more pleasure and more Joy even than 31 flavors of ice cream.

So anyone can go at their own pace, but the information is there if you want to start making some changes in your diet for your own health and well being, as well as help the planet the information is there of how to start, how to begin your pathway there.

Yes, absolutely.

That's fabulous. And you know.

I'm on your mailing list. I read your emails. And for other chocolate lovers like myself, I was encouraged to see the good news that chocolate as a superfood. But getting back to this transformational aspect, there are, there are issues around the production of chocolate and the distribution of chocolate. And so, you know, buying fair trade is also really important. Could you speak to that a little bit?

Yeah, sure. So chocolate is a really interesting thing because it can be really good or it can be really bad. It's really bad. When it comes from slavery on the Ivory coast in Ghana. Half the world's chocolate comes from the Ivory coast in Ghana in West Africa. And much of it there is coming from enslaved or poverty level. Poverty that creates a level of enslavement. People are earning less than a dollar a day. Children who are not going to school because they're forced to work, sorry, the age of five or six years old, just to keep a roof over their head so their family can eat. Then they never go to school and the family is in terrible conditions. And you know, there are some companies like Nestle that are actually trying to make some changes around this, but it's hard because they buy from third party and they buy from other parties and it all gets, the chocolate just all gets moved along. So how do you actually create standards and then pass it down the supply chain and make sure that they're enforced can be challenging because a lot of these are very small scale operations. But, but, and there's also slavery, literally where people, humans, humans are enslaved and sometimes children in these work camps and there's very little controls over it. So that's at the worst. And then of course that chocolate is often combined with a whole lot of sugar and sometimes, you know, dairy products and maybe even some artificial flavorings and colorings and creates a product that's toxic for our bodies and that's toxic for our morality. But on the other hand, fair trade chocolate can be grown in ways that are sustainable, that help regenerate economies, that help low income communities that have been very marginalized. Subsistence farmers in Central America and South America, for example, to have a shot at a decent, making a decent living while they preserve their ecology of their community. And cocoa itself is actually a super healthy food. It's, it's rich in a whole bunch of compounds that turn out to be good for mental health and even for cardiovascular health. What you want to do is go from A health perspective for the dark chocolate that doesn't have a lot of sugar, like 70% or higher cacao content. And then you make sure you're getting mostly cocoa, not mostly sugar. And you want to steer away from the dairy products because those actually mitigate a lot of the health benefits of the chocolate. And then fair trade is really, really important here, as is organic, if possible. To my knowledge, there's no organic chocolate being grown on the Ivory coast or Ghana of West Africa. So if you go organic, you're getting away from the worst of the conditions right there. If you go fair trade, though, you're definitely going a step higher in terms of the quality of the product. And so those are all steps we can take. And if you go with organic fair trade dark chocolate with a relatively low sugar content, then you can actually feel good about that. I mean, I'm not saying to eat, you know, something 17 chocolate bars before bed every night, but you can feel good about having a few squares with a cup of tea and know that it actually is beneficial for your health in most cases.

That's great. So this is. This is part of your focus on eating. I want eating humane, and with that kind of consciousness, I want to circle back to, you know, just the joy of health and vitality. And then you, you spoke to the need for sangha, for community. So we human beings have been gathering around food forever, and we celebrate around food. A lot of our joy, our collective joy, family joy, all happens around food. So it seems like there's a real sweet spot here to come together with healthy food and realize we're doing something that's good for our body, good for the planet, and we're doing that with people we love or in community or with our family. There's just such a sweet spot here for joy.

Yeah, there really is. It's. It's true. You know, throughout history, there's breaking bread together, sharing a meal together has. Has been an act of connection between people. Partly you're saying, okay, I trust you enough to eat. I know this food isn't poisoned, you know, but also, there's a sense of camaraderie and connection when you take in nourishment into your body with another person, you're bonded in some way through that act. And so I'm really passionate about building the healthy food community so we can know that we're not alone. Because, you know, when I was a kid growing up as a healthy eater, I was a weirdo. I mean, in school, I just got teased. There was. And I teased back. I mean, I was very militant, actually. I got very aggressive. I went through my kid, my classmates lunch boxes at school and I would interrogate them about the contents of their lunch boxes and they tell them where they came from. And you know, I got, I got, gotten a couple of fistfights with my friends over the contents of their lunchboxes and I had to ask myself, what am I doing? Supposedly advocating peace and compassion and getting fist bites over people's roast beef sandwiches. But, you know, at the end of the day, I think that I was resisting the way that I had felt marginalized for my choices and seen as weird because back in those days, you know, supermarket didn't have anything organic, didn't have tofu or soy milk or much less all of the huge array of almond milk and, you know, cashew milk and hemp milk and all the things we see today, oat milk, et cetera. Back in those days, you know, the thought that Walmart would become the largest seller of organic foods in America, that Burger King would have a vegetarian burger, that seemed impossible. And now here we are. The world is changing, and I think it's changing because of consumer demand. And the mainstream food companies didn't decide to sell organic or vegetarian options because they had this epiphany and said, oh my God, we're destroying the rainforests, we're hurting people's health, let's do something about it. No, they did it because there was money to be made at it, and there was money to be made at it because consumer preference was changing. And I think that's going to keep changing. And now that we have more healthy options available, then more people are going to be using them and it's going to keep pushing the envelope forward. So I'm excited about that. We got to keep going. And part of how that, what that does is it builds a sense of connection. And in fact, one of the reasons people are going plant based nowadays is because it's cool, because it's a trend. Now, I'm not a big fan of fads, but I will say that that's partly because we see the human need for belonging and the human need for being a part of something. And it used to be that, that really cut the other direction, but enough people are starting to value healthy food that we're getting critical mass. And I think that's pretty exciting.

Yeah, well, you're pointing to the power of the choices we make as consumers. And you know, we have come a long way. I mean, certainly since I grew up it's just changed so much. And like you, I grew up in a family food business and early on I was saying you need to create some organic products. There's no market for it. Yeah, Everywhere. Right. And actually, you know, the part of the family that still owns that, they are in Whole Foods and Walmart today with a more organic product. Right. But it took them forever to get interested in that. They didn't think the consumer demand was there. And it obviously it took a while for that to be impactful, but it's really impactful. And it all comes down to our choices. People like you and me and everyone in our audience, making those choices creates that economic power and changes the world. So what about. There's two things I'd like to ask you about. You can address them separately if you like. But one is when we're trying to eat healthy and even going to various stores and supermarkets and trying to make healthy choices and maybe choosing an alternative to animal products like soy or something. Well, we could be getting organic soy or we could be getting soy that's genetically modified. We could be getting soy that's full of pesticides. I mean, there's all kinds of things hidden even within what seem to be alternative products. Right. So knowing how to make those choices. And then the other part of that is it can seem that having the opportunity to make those healthy choices can be a matter of privilege and access and one's budget. And it can be really difficult for, for people with less economic resources or maybe in neighborhoods that have even been described as food deserts to be able to eat healthy. And so I wonder if you could address those two issues.

Yeah, absolutely. It's so important. So first of all, we do have some systemic problems here. As I mentioned, the federal government in the United States subsidizes with tens of billions of dollars a year in taxpayer money, so called commodities crops, which in effect is bringing down the price of factory farm meat and high fructose corn syrup and white bread, while doing nothing to bring down the price of fruits and vegetables and nuts and seeds, which are the things that we all know we should be eating more of. And so.

Whether you're a free market loving capitalist or a government intervention loving socialist, I think we could probably all agree that subsidizing the wrong side stuff with taxpayer money is a really stupid idea. Now if we're going to subsidize anything, why don't we subsidize healthy foods to bring down the price of healthy foods, especially for low income communities? There are a couple of programs that I want to highlight that I think have real promise here. One is they're both from Wholesome Waves, which is an organization I love. One of them is called Produce Prescriptions. And this is where doctors can prescribe fruits and vegetables to their patients for certain conditions. And they get subs, they get funded by insurance companies. So instead of saying, hey, here's a drug for you to go take for the rest of your life and the insurance company is going to pay for that, it's hello, Mr. Filberston, let's give you some broccoli, you know, and, and some cabbage and some other vegetables. Right. Which by the way, can be a cost effective intervention for a lot of conditions that will not only reduce the severity of that condition, but improve the health of the patient overall. With most drugs we get all these side effects, but with fruits and vegetables, the only side effects are good ones. So Produce Prescriptions are kind of awesome. And then the other thing they're doing is called the Double Up Bucks program. So SNAP dollars are used for food assistance for many tens of millions of Americans. And the notion here is that you get double value when you use that money for fruits and vegetables. And this can increase the economic activity and the sales of fruits and vegetables in low income communities, which is an answer to the food desert problem, because suddenly stores have an incentive because people will buy more fruits and vegetables, so they have incentive to stock more fruits and vegetables, which helps to address the supply side of the issue, but it can also give people more purchasing power. And the studies show us that when people get more value for their SNAP dollars for fruits and vegetables, they buy more fruits and vegetables, they eat more fruits and vegetables, and they're healthier because of it. So these are two solutions that I think can make a world of difference. You know, we're on course right now in the United States where the Medicare program is headed for, for insolvency in the next few years because, you know, baby boomers are getting older and they're needing more and more Medicare and the cost of Medicare keep skyrocketing. And, you know, health care now absorbed 19%, almost 20% of our entire gross domestic product in the United States, it's more than four times the military budget, just for a point of reference. And that's only going up, up, up, because we're getting sicker and we're getting fatter. Well, if we can make some of these programs happen, we can focus on targeting some of the lowest income communities, people who really do have the price sensitivity where fruits and vegetables are hard to afford, and we can uplift their health, which in the long run could save us trillions of dollars in medical care costs for future generations. So win, win, win, win. As far as I can see. And that's at the policy level. Now, as an individual, you can't control what happens in Washington and where subsidies go and all this stuff. But what you can do is take charge of your health by focusing on the really healthy foods that are really affordable. And that's why one of my passions is looking at how we can eat really well on a budget. I grew up, as I mentioned earlier, living in a little log cabin in the middle of the woods. My family spent less than $1,000 a year, as I was in my first five years of life. Of course, that was 1970s dollars, but nevertheless, we lived really well from a food perspective on really little money. And the way we did it was pretty simple. We focused on the real healthy staples. We grew a lot of our own vegetables in the garden, and we focused on things like legumes and whole grains along with the vegetables and some potatoes and stuff like that. And it was really basic. And we added flavor to our foods with spices, you know, and we didn't have bottled oils, we didn't have added sugars, except a little bit of blackstrap molasses when I was good. But, you know, but we did have really wholesome, healthy foods. And the awesome thing is that when you eat that way, your taste buds change. There are actually studies showing that people, for example, who eat kale, the first time it'll taste bitter, but by the 10th time, it'll taste sweeter because they're starting to secrete certain enzymes in their saliva that make it taste sweeter, break down the kale and make it taste better. So the same is true with habits. When you do anything consistently, it gets easier. And you learn how to make really delicious foods out of wholesome foods. And when you base your diet around these foods, you can save a lot of money. I mean, you know, legumes as an example. You know, if you got all your calories from beans, not that I recommend getting all your calories from anything, but it's an interesting exercise. You know, you could live on a few bucks a day, you know, with. With that. Add to that some quinoa and then some cabbage. And if you can grow it in the backyard, all the better, and you've got some bases covered. Now, obviously, we all want diversity, and we all want deliciousness, but.

Some of the top Steps to take if you want to save money on a healthy diet are, number one, cut out the waste. The average American waste, $2,000 a year in food that just goes bad in the fridge. Number two, eat out less often by eating out at restaurants less. Make those special occasions, but don't make it like all the time. And also steer clear of the prepared convenience foods by preparing yourself. Now of course that takes time, so the next step is plan ahead. Shop in bulk from lists and cooking quantity. Batch cooking is an awesome time saver, which ultimately turns out because time is money. So it'll save you, save you money too in the long run. And then focus on the real superfoods. Base your diet around wholesome staples. People are like, oh my gosh, not going vegetarian is expensive. Actually it's quite the opposite. If you look at what it costs, especially if you're going for pasture raised or grass fed animal products and you compare that to beans for example, my gosh, you're going to save so much money by going plant based. Move away from the processed foods. Yes, it's cheap calories to get bottled oils or fried chips or what have you, cookies at a market, but nutrient poor if you're looking for the price per nutrient. When you base your diet around foods that are rich in nutrients, your equation starts to change. And then the last thing is to remember it in context, which is that last time I checked, cancer was pretty expensive, so was heart disease. So it was feeling like all the time in the long run. Medical costs are the leading cause of bankruptcies in the United States and they are depleting. So so many generation after generation of people are dying in poverty because medical expenses eat up any savings they may have accumulated over their life. And then they don't pass it on to their kids or grandkids. So we have these intergenerational cycles of poverty that carry on generation after generation. You help to break that trend if you can be healthy and help your family get healthy. And then you can actually, if you have any extra leftover, you get to pass it on to the next generation, who in turn can pass that on to the next generation. And cycles of can grow and families can get lifted out of poverty. Wow.

All these systemic interconnections are so complex. But I love the federal programs and policies you pointed to. Like these are really smart solutions and we can use the, we can leverage the, you know, the forces of the economy that leverage third party payments from insurance companies. We can leverage all these kind of things to start moving things in the Right direction. So we can make healthy choices. We can, you know, we can vote for people that support smart policies. We can advocate for this. And all of this, you know, this is also interconnected with climate change as well because our food production system, animal production, creates all kinds of methane gas. Industrial farming is destroying topsoil, huge contributor to carbon in the atmosphere. If we could return to sustainable farming, we could recapture 50% of the carbon that's there. So I mean it's just all that and it's connected with, as you said, the cycles of poverty and so much else. You know, I remember growing up in the 50s. Both my grandparents had farms. I lived in a city, but I got to spend a lot of time on the farms and remember talking to my grandfather and you know, he, this was even back in the 50s. But he said, you know, the people he knew around in that farming country, right, none of them were growing their own food anymore. They were just growing cash crops. And then they wanted to have the same lifestyle as people had in the cities and suburbs. So they were spending all their money in supermarkets and on the same kind of way of living. That's not really sustainable when you're on the farm. Right. And getting in debt to grow cash crops. And they had plenty of room for gardens, but they weren't even having gardens anymore. So could you talk about that a little bit? I mean my, my wife Sophie and I, we have a garden in our backyard and we, we salads out of our own garden this year as early as early May. And we'll still be getting stuff out of the garden in October. And then we have a, we're lucky to have a farm share that we pick up just two blocks down the road because we live in a little New England village that's semi village, semi rural. But you know, there's all urban farming movement as well. Urban, Urban gard. Right. So I wonder if you could. It may seem far fetched to people who think I could grow some of my own food, but could you talk a little bit more about that?

Oh, I'm such a big fan of growing food. It gives you self reliance. It brings you healthy food right to you. Having that kind of food security is awesome. It's good for kids and the kid and all of us because studies show that when kids are around vegetables being grown, they eat more vegetables for the rest of their lives. And that's probably true for all of us. And it also gives you awesome nutrient density because fresh is best and local is best and you can't get more fresh or more local than food you grow yourself. If you don't have a lot of space, everyone pretty much can sprout. You know, you can get a mason jar and put a tablespoon or two of sproutable seeds in the bottom and soak it overnight and then rinse it twice a day. And in a few days, voila, hello, dinner. You know, it's. And sprouts add a lot of nutrition to the original seeds, so that can be awesome. And. And then if you have more space, you know, little containers or if you have enough room. A backyard garden is a wonderful pastime. It's good therapy. It gives you a sense of place and belonging in the world. And. And you get tomatoes or vegetables. So I'm a big fan.

Great. Yeah, it's another win, win, win, you know, and there's so much information available on the world wide web today that if anybody wants to even just get beginning with. No matter whether you do it on a rooftop or in a planter in your window or you get a community garden in an urban space, there's so much information to help you get started. Right. And so there's almost no excuse for not doing it. And the health benefits are, again, it's one of these win, win, win things. Right. I just read something around brain health the other day that listed gardening as one of the really healthy things you can do, both on the exercise level and the breathing level and all despite eating the product of the garden. Just the act of gardening was incredibly healthy for you. Yeah. So I just love that there's so many connections you're making that are really these win, win, win solutions and steps we can take. So I wonder if you could point to. You've already pointed to some of this, but what are some of the. If we wanted to really start by eliminating some of the really most toxic, most deleterious things from our diet, what might be a short list of some of those?

Well, number one is going to be getting rid of the processed junk foods. I mean, that's got to be at the top of just about any list. Michael Pollan put it pretty simply with his seven words. He said, eat food, not too much, mostly plants. And when he said eat food, what he meant was as opposed to food like products and hyper processed junks that our grandparents or great grandparents probably wouldn't have even recognized as food. You know, stuff that comes in packages that's been shipped, it's made of ingredients from all over the world that have been shipped tens of thousands of miles, made in factories. And you know, our bodies don't recognize that as food because it really isn't. It's hyper processed calories with additives, and it's a product of a factory or a laboratory. So the end of the day, you want to base your diet around real wholesome foods because that's what your body was designing and that's what it thrives on. And then not too much, because most of us eat about 500 to 1,000 calories too much per day on average. And then we wonder why two thirds of us are overweight or obese. Well, a lot of it comes down to eating too much food. And the thing is, there's a connection between these things because when you eat food like products, your body is actually calorie rich, but it's nutrient starved. And a lot of us aren't getting our basic needs met for a lot of critical nutrients. And so part of how that shows up is insatiable hunger. So when you're satisfied, you can have your hunger for life go into other pursuits rather than obsessing about food all the time. And then not too much becomes a whole lot easier. But sometimes it also takes training yourself to get comfortable with a little bit of hunger, which can actually be pleasurable. Not every hunger is meant to be satiated immediately to that feeling of feeling stuffed. So allowing yourself to enjoy being a little hungry can actually be good, especially around bedtime. So studies show that it's ideal not to go to bed with a full stomach, but to go to bed on a slightly empty stomach, and then you wake up hungry and ready to go in the morning, you know. And then mostly plants is another critical piece, because we want to base our diet around whole plant foods. They're rich in flavonoids and phytonutrients of all kinds of vitamins and minerals that you need to thrive. And, and they're low in the saturated fat and the excess calories that we get from animal products. And they're high in fiber, by the way, which is something that most of us are very deficient in. And fiber also gives you that full feeling in your stomach as well as helping keep you regular and clean things out and feeding the good bacteria in your gut. You know, everyone's talking about the microbiome these days. Well, what, what the, the probiotics need to survive is prebiotics. That's the food that they eat. Prebiotics are all forms of fiber. That's what they need is fiber. And so there's no fiber in any animal Products. There's lots of fiber in the plant kingdom. All whole plant foods have fibers of different kinds. So when you base your diet around whole foods and plant foods and get away from the sugar and processed junk and excess animal products, then you create the conditions to really thrive. And by the way, you're also walking lighter on the earth, which can contribute to a stable planet for future generations.

And I assume people can find most of this information in 31 days to a food Revolution.

I wonder if you could speak to the parents in our audience a little bit now. You had a unique situation. You grew up kind of in an isolated setting and you probably didn't have a lot of choice and you got conditioned to eat healthy and you've lived this way your whole life. A lot of parents are in situations where they may want their kids to eat healthy, they may be making healthier choices, but the kids are clamoring for what their schoolmates are clamoring for and what they see on tv. And so I wonder if there's any support within Food Revolution Network or any guidance on. Because what we get conditioned to as children is really going to be impactful. It can be harder to change your habits later on if you are really conditioned into not so healthy food choices. I remember my son when he was really little, he could come up with a thousand different ways to try to convince me to buy him a McDonald's Happy Meal. And I never bought him one. I don't know where he got that in his head, but he was relentless.

Right.

And so, you know, parents deal with that. And I wonder if you have any idea around how they can find community and support. Support in helping their kids make healthy choices.

Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, obviously, every age is its own dynamic. I think that every, every stage, you know, kids, we talk about how fast kids grow up. Well, parents have to change too. How many of us are still treating our kids like they're little babies and they're like, when they get a little older, they get really annoyed. They're like, I'm not a kid anymore. You know, and to us, you know, a 17 year old might look like a kid, but to them they're like, no, I'm, you know, I deserve to be respected and treated like a grown up. So one of the critical pieces to think about is what's an appropriate age to give what information. The thing is that in a toxic food culture, kids are going to be impacted by the toxic norms around them starting at a pretty early age. So to the best extent you can While their babies and little ones protect them from those influences. You know, I've seen Coca Cola.

Logoed baby bottles. You know, we should not be giving Coke to babies, right? We should probably shouldn't be giving it to anybody, but certainly not to babies. And as, as they get older, you know, when they cease to be fully in our control as parents, whatever stage that is, we have to think about helping them have a bit of an immune system because now they're going to be exposed to influences and it's sad that we have to think about that. But just like, you know, little girls now have to be taught about how to avoid molesters, you know, at a young age. You know, just like, you know, there are dangers in this world and we've got to prepare our children for them. You know, black children have to learn how to deal with certain influences and dangers that white children might not have to learn about, starting at a really early age. So I think that, you know, we've got to think about how to prepare our kids. If they're going to be exposed to sugars and processed foods and fried foods and fast foods, then we've got to help them learn what's involved and what that means at an age appropriate level. So for a lot of kids, if you're thinking about from a plant based perspective, the most impactful thing is just straight up, where does meat come from? The fact that it's animals that were killed for a lot of kids is enough to be like, yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to kill a pig, you know, so I can eat their brain, you know, or whatever that part of their body. So from that perspective, and then if they can learn about factory farms and where, where those animals come from and how they're treated, that's the most impactful one for most kids because they, they love animals. It's just part of human nature, I think. And then of course, to the extent that they can, as far as sugar, like talking about really basic things like highs and lows and addiction and the way that sugar makes people hyper and gets their brain hyper stimulated and then makes them fat, you know, like a lot of kids are not too worried about health issues, but they may not want to gain excess weight, especially if they get concerned about that. So knowing that excess calories and excess sugars can lead to obesity is a thing that is worth sharing, probably. And then just talking about energy level, how you want to have energy to jump and run and play and do all these fun things. Well, when you eat Healthy food, you have more of that. And especially the older you get, the more that matters. So just helping kids learn about that stuff can be helpful. I think it's important not to get too punitive and rigid about it in a way that kids feel afraid and hyper managed and hyper controlled. And that's one of the dangers, especially as they get a little older, the rebel starts to emerge. And a lot of kids feel like, gosh, my parents just boss me around and tell me what to do, I want to be free. And then their own freedom and sovereignty becomes dependent on their right to eat whatever they want. And if you get into that dynamic, then you're in a. You're on the wrong side of their fight for freedom. Right. So that's not a good place for any parent wants to be. So learning how to really respect their choices and their authenticity as their age appropriate, capable, while at the same time trying to manage. But ultimately your goal is you've got to nurture in them their ability to be the master of their own destiny as early as possible and keep reinforcing that as they get older. And that means giving them information. So showing kids, having family movie nights where you watch movies, movies about, you know, some of these topics can be really powerful. And there's some great films out there like Game Changers and Forks Over Knives and you know, Cowspiracy. If you want to go more with the environmental side and you want to hit hard with the plant based message or you know, there's some different movies out there that are, you know, that are on different topics. But if you watch some of these, you can really get them inspired about it. And even at a pretty young age, you'd be amazed. 5, 6, 7, 8 years old, a lot of kids are ready to start learning about some of that stuff. And they may not absorb it all, but they'll get the gist. They'll see like that healthy eaters are really healthy and they want to be like that. So getting those messages out is really important. And then of course there's some films that are more aimed at younger audiences and you can look for those as well. And programs that just encourage healthy eating. Really important to get those influences in so that they start to see that it's cool to. And it's not just mom and dad's trip trying to control them. And then of course having healthy influences is important if you have other family members, or rather friends that eat well, that are in healthy eating families trying to connect with those so that they can go over for Dinner at someone's house and not be exposed to foods that you wouldn't want them exposed to can be really helpful. And then when I was young, if I was going to a birthday party, for example, my parents would send me with my own cake and they'd bake. My mom, bless her heart, would bake it the night before and you know, I'd take it with me and I'd eat that so I wasn't having to be totally left out. Or even better yet, bonus points that you can ask the family if they'd be willing to have an alternative option available. You know, and then if you're going to like a Thanksgiving or something like that and people are eating different ways, you know, in our larger families we'll do, we'll do potluck style Thanksgiving so whoever's hosting may do it their way, but then everyone else can bring things and then we make sure that there's going to be plenty of food for us and everyone else who wants to eat healthy and plant based options. And then our kids don't feel left out, they're just having this version of the mashed potatoes or this version of the stuffing or whatever. And it's amazing how often the plant based options get scooped right up. So we have to make sure there's enough for the people who depend on that. But it can be fun just to focus on finding creative solutions and planning ahead and making it work.

Well, what you were talking about really applies to children and adults. I mean, empowering ourselves with information, education and then choice. And we actually can make choices in our own interest and it turns out in the world's interest. Right. And you pointed to the early childhood part where children are making their choices. What parents give their children then is actually conditioning the child neurochemically, physiologically to have certain preferences. Right. So there's already a lot of, of impact going there. You know, if we're, if we're providing healthy diet, you know, even from one through five or six. Right. So that can have a huge impact.

Absolutely, yes.

Well, this has been incredibly rich and thank you so much for this ocean. And I hope people are inspired to check out your book 31 days to a Food Revolution and to think about, you know, just how impactful our choices are on so many levels. You know, the cycles of poverty, on climate change, on, you know, changing these what are really toxic industries and so forth. So as well as in a process increasing our own health, vitality and joy in life. So it really seems like a no brainer and A win, win, win. So thank you so much for this. How can people where can people best find more about your work?

Get 31 Day Food Revolution on Amazon or, you know, order it from a bookstore. You can find out more about our work at Food revolution network@foodevolution.org, which is our main website. But really, you're part of this. Every time you choose real food over processed junk, every time you eat lower on the food chain, every time you plant a seed or start a sprout, every time you shop consciously from a list and choose to choose something healthy over something not so healthy, every time you share healthy food with loved ones or community, every time you advocate, learn, grow, discover you're part of the food revolution. And step by step, we're learning, we're growing, we're sharing, and we're changing the world together. So I want to thank you, everybody who's watching for your attention, for your curiosity. This is part of how we create the best years of our lives, is by choosing to lean into healthy food choices that are good for our bodies, that are an act of love for ourselves, that are an act of respect and caring for all of life on earth, for animals, for for the future generations, for our whole planet, we get to be a part of the solution for ourselves and for our world every single day. So bless you for every step you take and every bite you take to be a food revolutionary. Wow.

Well, I'm certainly inspired. I was already committed, but now I'm on fire with inspiration after our conversation. Thank you so much Ocean Robins of the Food Revolution Network.

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