EP 154: Letting Light Balance Our Lives | Jacob Liberman

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Welcome to the Radical Responsibility podcast. This is your host, Bleit Mall. And today I'm having an extraordinary conversation with Jacob Lieberman. Dr. Jacob Lieberman, who went from being an optometrist to a spiritual teacher through his practice of optometry and his own spontaneous healing of his own vision, and then his ability to heal many other people of eyesight issues, actually evolved into understanding light as the essence of life. And really at the most essential level, photons are at the very basics of the matrix of energy out of which we arise. So we are all essentially light beings. And so Jacob Lieberman evolved through his practice as an optometrist and working with tens of thousands of people to actually become a spiritual teacher, helping people discover how to balance their lives through light. One of his early books, I think, was something like throw away your glasses or put down your glasses. He's helped many, many people heal their eyesight, and he offers many exercises for healing our eyesight, but even goes much further than that in terms of recognizing how light is always bringing to us the messages and the wisdom we need to guide our lives. We just need to pay attention and focus on that attune to that. So, Jacob Lieberman, extraordinary.

Welcome, Dr. Lieberman.

It's a pleasure to be with you, Fleet.

Well, I've really been looking forward to this. I've become a big fan since getting into your book a while back, and it's becoming thumb worn and I've got it on audible too, so I'm listening to it. I just. I found it incredibly inspiring. So I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while. So I'm going to share a bit of your bio to familiarize our audience with your work, and then we'll jump right into the conversation. Okay, terrific.

All right.

Dr. Jacob Israel Lieberman is a pioneer in the fields of light, vision and consciousness. The author of Luminous Life, how the Science of Light Unblocks. The Art of Living light Medicine of the future. Take off your glasses and see. And Wisdom from an empty mind. Originally trained as an optometrist and vision scientist, his life changed in 1976. And after miraculous healing of his own eyesight, leading him to a deeper understanding of light and the science of life. Having helped countless individuals recover their eyesight, he began to understand the words of Jonathan Swift real vision is the ability to see the invisible. Dr. Lieberman earned a doctorate in optometry from Southern College of optometry, a PhD in vision science from the College of Syntonic Optometry, and was awarded an honorary Doctorate of Science from the Open International University for Contemporary Medicines. He is the past President of the College of Syntonic Optometry and the International Society for the Study of Subtle Energies and Energy Medicine, and a Fellow Emeritus of the American Academy of Optometry, College of Syntonic Optometry, College of Optometrist and Vision Development, and International Academy of Color Sciences. A recipient of the H.R. spitler Award for his groundbreaking contributions to the field of phototherapy. Dr. Lieberman is the inventor of the Bisflex, if I'm pronouncing that correctly.

Color Receptivity Trainer, spectral receptivity systems 1, 2 and 3, and IPOR vision training systems, the first FDA cleared medical device that significantly improves overall visual performance. He is on the Board of Directors of the International Light association and Neuro Health sbc, working together with other distinguished experts to develop an informational platform for documenting integrative medicine.

Quite a career.

And I find it fascinating.

You know, we're having a conversation today on the day of our summit focused on spirituality and consciousness, and I'm talking to an optometrist. I find that really fascinating and that I'm sure, actually the story which I've read in your book about how you ended up becoming an optometrist, why you pulled over at the School of Optometry and enrolled there, you know, has some spiritual underpinnings itself. So I'm sure in some ways you've probably always been a seeker. There's been many contributions, but on some level.

Your spiritual path, and now your path as a spiritual.

Guide and teacher really arose out of the science of optometry, which is kind of unique. So I'm really looking forward to exploring that. So just to set, you know, the setting for our conversation here today, we're focused on spirituality and consciousness and that could really cover the territory anywhere from spiritual well being to the highest possibilities of spiritual evolution, liberation. However, we might want to describe that our highest possibilities as human beings and in terms of the spiritual dimension. In the clinical literature, the medical literature, psychological literature, we often talk about that in terms of a sense of deeply felt connectedness with ourselves, with others, and with some dimension, some greater dimension of life that gives our life meaning and purpose. And then it is very much that sense of having meaning and purpose in life. And when we lose that sense of connectedness. Or feel alienated on any of those levels. Or lose that sense of meaning and purpose in life. We experience what's called spiritual distress. So there's that kind of level. And then, of course, there's all the ways in which human beings throughout history, across all cultures, have been approaching just realizing, who are we and what are we doing here and what's this all about? And then recognizing, you know, certain possibilities of maybe higher evolutionary abilities, of ways of being, of being more deeply connected and more living from a place of universal love and so forth. So that's kind of the domain today, and we can really go anywhere we want with that. But I'd really like you to start with, you know, kind of how your. How your path began. Maybe set the stage for us a little bit. And then I really want to explore your focus on light and the science of light. Because I just think it informs so much about our spiritual journey. But why don't you set the stage for us a little bit with your life and your path?

You know, I think.

Very often.

Getting on the. On the path, if you will.

Is related to something that allows us to see that we haven't been on the path or that we've gotten off track a little bit. And that often occurs with some event or experience that you could say is traumatic.

I always have found it interesting that.

We have forgotten that perturbance.

Is the catalyst for evolvement. That in all systems, whether it's biological systems, chemical systems, in the field of physics, it doesn't make any difference. Prior to a series.

A system expanding, there's usually something that disrupts the status quo.

Even to get your clothes clean. It's not the detergent and the water that gets it clean. It's the agitation. And so the agitation in our lives. Or the agitation caused by a grain of sand in a little creature in the ocean. Or the agitation when a lobster is a little too tight for its shell. Actually is the stimulus to seeing something new, to seeing new horizons and so on.

I think a major part of my journey, even though I was looking at things in the early 70s when I first was introduced to meditation. And also in the 70s, having a profound experience where my vision shifted quite instantaneously while I was in the midst of a meditative experience. Even having those kinds of experiences while they were very, very interesting to me mentally. It wasn't until I went through a very difficult and unexpected ending of a marriage.

That all of a sudden something within me fragmented. And in the years of trying to put Myself back together.

I began to realize.

Who I am and who I'm not. And so, you know, a big piece of this, as you said, is determining who am I?

But most of our lives.

Most of us, relate to ourselves based on. On our Persona. You know, in the old days of the theatrical theater, before they had elaborate costumes, the actors would have a mask that was their Persona on a little rod, and they would hold it. And that was the part that they played. But Persona comes from the Italian personare, which means to peer through. And so the essence of the being is not the mask, the Persona, the personality, who we think we are, but rather something in the background that is peering through.

And so that, for me, became a very.

Important part of my journey.

When I had a revelation and realized that there was something within me that was noticing everything that was going on, including in that thing I thought was my mind. And so that became.

An incredible introduction. And one more thing that comes is that.

I think once we begin to.

Recognize.

That we are somewhere in the background observing all that is, we also begin to realize that there's nothing much to do.

And it's very, very critical piece because.

We'Ve all been conditioned to do, do, do. And yet, as a physician, one of the first things I realized is that there's nothing physiologically within us that's designed for.

Basically initiating action.

So we're not designed to do. What we are designed for is to respond.

And so the response is to an animating force, Something that is moving, all that is both within us. Our heartbeat, our blood pressure, our glucose, our breathing rhythms, and so on. But it's animating everything else in this universe. So those were critical places for. For me early on that are continually.

Expanding.

And becoming more and more integrated each day into my own life and existence.

So I really want to circle back and explore this idea of, you know, who are we and who's looking and the whole notion of the witness from various perspectives. And I also really want to talk about your experience in working with patients as a physician and a healer. And if I'm getting it correctly, a lot of that. Even though there's technology and you've developed machines and there's exercises, a lot of it has to do with relaxation and a less effortful moving from a more effortful looking to a less effortful seeing, perhaps. And also everything you've discovered in the field of color therapy, which I find really fascinating. But I wonder, at first we could just talk about both vision at the most basic level and light, as far as I Know, even though we've learned to channel electricity, manufacture or store electricity. And we were able to channel light in various ways. On some level, we don't fundamentally know what either of them are.

But I know you take it down to really an essential level in your book. In terms of what light is.

And how perhaps it is the most essential thing we know within energy and matter. And then how we are such visual beings. And how we are so informed and energized by light to begin with. So I wonder if you could talk about that area a little bit, kind of to set the ground that what are we really talking about here. In terms of, as human beings, the importance of light and vision.

You know, if you look at things from a biblical perspective.

The Bible speaks about.

A creative force called God. That is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. And then it says that God is light.

It says in the beginning, let there be light. But then it says on the fourth day, God created the sun, moon and stars. Two different sorts of light. A light of creation and a light that gives us the experience of. Of brightness, if you will.

If you look at the writings in consciousness. Light is also referred to routinely in those writings. Almost synonymous with consciousness. The light of consciousness. And then, of course, if you look at the field of quantum physics. Which is.

The most.

The most exact theory ever developed. Over 50% of all the technology on the planet. Is based on quantum mechanics. So it's a very, very accurate field.

And it basically states that the ground of reality. The energy from which everything arises. Is something called light. And so, for me, light and life.

Our.

Energy in two states of existence. One is formless light. And the other is the formed expression that we call life.

One of the things that I came to realize early on. Is we're all busy looking for what we want in life.

And missing what's looking for us.

And what I realize, it is not the eye looking for the light. It's the light looking for the eye. And this is from where the expression comes. It caught my eye that it is the light. The godliness, the consciousness. The ground of reality. And why is it catching our eye? Because when light interacts with the eye. The eye reflexively moves toward it. And that instance of alignment is presence. There isn't someone being present. There just is presence. And in that moment, my sense is that there's a transmission or a guidance. Sometimes we call it intuition. But it's actually light, which is totally invisible. Interacting with the hundred trillion cells of our body.

Guiding each of them into what to do, when to do it, and to what degree.

So that one, we are in alignment or resonance or at one with the cosmos, and two, you might say it lays out for us the next step of our journey, the next thing that is calling for our presence or what we often call attention. So light and vision are inseparable, Absolutely inseparable.

And so for me, that whole piece is so important because.

As I became.

Aware.

Of these things occurring within my life.

I started noticing that I became continually more aware of their presence. Initially, I'd have an experience, and sometime later, I'd have an aha. Moment. Oh, wow. That's why that occurred. I had an awareness about the experience. But.

Awareness becomes finer and finer, and the lag time between an experience and the awareness reduces and reduces. And sometimes we have, as Ram Dass used to say, a be here now moment. Awareness and experience are coincident.

And we think we've arrived, at which point we get to start all over again.

But what I began to notice is that as awareness and experience become more coincident, we have these precognitive experiences.

We have an awareness that precedes an experience. And every parent who's had a feeling about their child picked up the phone to call them, and the child says, oh, mommy, or oh, daddy, I was just thinking about you knows exactly what it is that I'm speaking about there. Well, in my own practice, way back in the late 70s and 80s.

I would notice what was guiding me.

What was coming not from me, but to me. And so when I was with patients, I would let that guidance guide me in terms of what I might suggest to them.

Or maybe there was a part on their body that needed to be touched, like a place on their shoulder. And sometimes when that connection was made, their vision would just open up. And I started realizing that we're all being guided continually by this energy called light, which we term intuition.

Because we don't know what light is. We think light is brightness, but light is totally invisible. And.

In fact, in 2017, the Nobel Prize for medicine or physiology was won by three US Scientists that discovered the cellular mechanism by which plants, animals, and humans harmonize their biology by synchronizing themselves with mother Nature. In other words, by being at one with the universe.

What they discovered is that the continual changing energy we called light, both during the day and during the night, is cueing all of our cells, guiding them into precisely what they need to do so that we're always at one with life. And this, of course, occurs with animals in the wild.

As they go from season to season, the bear doesn't have to put on an overcoat the first day of winter.

Its coat has already thickened up so that the first snowfall it is already comfortable. So all living things are continually adjusting effortlessly, synchronizing themselves with Mother Nature. And it's inseparable from light because light entering the eyes goes to the part of the brain that controls all our life sustaining functions. It also goes to the pineal, what we call the third eye in spiritual conversations. But the pineal is the regulator of regulators. It regulates pretty much everything in the body. And so when light interacts with the pineal, every cell in the body experiences it simultaneously and orchestrates its internal function so that it can synchronize itself with Mother Nature. I guess what I'm saying is, without doing much, our body is continually brought into alignment with life. It is so much of our doing that actually at times interferes.

With what occurs naturally.

And so what's become normal is often totally unnatural.

I'd like to explore a Little bit further, Dr. Lieberman, this.

The idea of kind of visual light, or what you term brightness. What we, you know, we, the sun comes up, we can see, right. Objects and so forth. And at night it can be very dark if there's no moon or we're inside somewhere and the lights are all off. And, and so there's, there's that kind of visual light or brightness. There's also the light coming through our eyes that we all notice, you know, that when some of you know that expression, the. Well, I don't know if that really works. The lights are on, but nobody's home. It's really more like there's somebody home, but the lights are not on. Somebody just said that opaqueness, right. They don't seem to be very present. But when someone's very present, you just feel that you see the light in their eyes, right? Or we get animated, you see more light in the eyes, right?

Absolutely.

And then we know from various meditative traditions, you know, even if you close your eyes or wear a complete blindfold or you're in a very dark room or doing dark retreat, and there's still awareness, right? Right, there's still awareness. And actually once you settle into that, what appears to be darkness initially is still kind of a chaotic pixelation of light and dark and even the color spectrum can arise, right? So, you know, there's light that is awareness, like the consciousness is always aware regardless of visual light. And then there's a visual light, both external and Internal. So could you talk a little bit about the relationality between all those, how that works, and maybe even just also maybe tying into that, what you spoke of before, being in that balance, like the way all animals are with Mother Nature, you know, the importance of circadian rhythms. Like if we're not getting that early morning visual light coming into our eyes, it doesn't get us in the right rhythm with life. So I don't know, it's a lot of territory. But maybe see where you'd like to go with that.

The first thing is to realize that every physiological function is light dependent.

Everything.

Only 25% of the light entering the eyes is for the process of eyesight and vision. 75% is literally energizing and guiding all the cells of our body.

So that it's in alignment with Mother Nature.

Keep in mind that the body processes about 3 billion inputs every second. 1 billion from the right eye, 1 billion from the left eye, 1 billion from the rest of the body. So what comes in via vision when the eyes are open is really profound. That's why about 85 to 90% of what we process is through vision. But what's fascinating is we all go to sleep at night. It's totally dark, we close our eyes and during the night, while we believe that we are asleep.

We have dreams. And sometimes they're unbelievably vivid. And even though it's dark in the environment, our dreams are not dark. Our dreams are filled with light, they're filled with experiences we can't even imagine. Everything that quantum physicists speak about, like bilocating entanglement, all these very complex concepts, we experience them in our dreams.

We just experience ourselves being from one place to the next. And very often that information.

Can guide something in our life because it's almost like we are.

Not only in touch, but inseparable within that moment from the unconscious, from what physicists called non local consciousness, that from where all the directives are arising. So we need that light during the day. Not only to synchronize our physiology with Mother Nature's, because as you know, in life, timing is everything.

Now we think about that in terms of external events.

But our physiology has to be absolutely precise.

If all of a sudden something is causing us to have to run, our physiology has to respond instantaneously. In fact, it's not even a response. It's almost like the physiology and that which is guiding it one thing. And so the timing of our body's rhythms are inseparable from light. And the guidance provided by Light.

And it's also inseparable from our spiritual awakening as well.

We often say seeing the light.

And it's really just about having revelations about things that used to sound philosophical, but you realize that they're actually actual. That that is, in fact, the way things move. You know, we have been trained to think about everything, to think ahead. And so we are continually.

Doing an internal rehearsal of what do I have to do, what do I have to ask, what do I have to be in order to get the good grades to be successful, whatever it is that we call it.

But in the process of all that rehearsal.

We often.

What is obscure to us is what is coming to us rather than from us. And so that is perhaps one of the most profound discoveries of my own life and existence, is.

How life is actually living me. And that.

When I begin to experiment with just allowing that process, I'm continually brought to tears with humility because it's like, oh, my God, this is just miraculous.

Just like we're having this conversation. Neither one of us knew exactly what we were going to speak about.

Probably for the last 40 years, when I've been asked to speak somewhere.

I don't prepare anything. In fact, I find it almost impossible to try to prepare. Even though when the mind says, oh, you really need to get that together. This is a scientific audience and so on, some way or another, it flows by itself. And there's a profoundness in that. And once there is an awareness of that.

Life can have a very profound shift. It isn't that we're going to get things our way, or we're never going to get sick again, or we're always going to have all the money we need. It's nothing to do with that. It's just the simplest little aspects of life. Just bring that twinkle to our eye that you spoke about.

Where light is actually being emitted from the eyes rather than just received.

You know, I find myself. This is such a.

Very deep, profound and subtle subject to explore. I find myself kind of wanting to pull back and forth between the ineffable and the practical. And so I'm going to come back to the practical for just a moment because I really want to just find my own access as well for our audience here. So the sun is a major source of light, energy, radiation in our particular solar system and for us here on Earth. And so one sort of spiritual strategy that's been found in all human traditions, one is fasting. Because when we eat less, the body seems to be a more sensitive receptor. It's not so caught up in the mechanics of digestion, I suppose, which requires a lot of energy. But then also being outside with a lot of skin exposure, even naked. So exposing all the skin surface to the sun's rays, to that light. So apart from the light that enters through the eyes specifically and is received through all those receptors.

We absorb light through the skin as well. And so. And that's been known to have profound effects for healing and kind of reharmonizing the whole body. So I wonder if you could talk about light on that level a little bit for a moment.

Sure. You know what, I living in Maui, Hawaii, I'm out in the sun a lot. In fact, our home is almost entirely windows.

Getting outside is important because so often our environments are visually confined. We're looking at a monitor, we're looking at a book, we're looking at a wall. But when you get outside, the vista opens up and so the confinement recedes and the light can get in both in the eyes as well as the body. What I suggest to, to my own clients is to get outside and if possible, lay with minimal clothing. Begin with one minute on your back and one minute on your stomach. And every day increase by a minute on each side to about 20 minutes a day without sunscreens. Because as your body adjusts to the light, the skin naturally thickens and actually protects you from overexposure. So getting outside and just allowing the body to receive light has a very, very profound effect. There is a science that I've been involved in for many years that has just hit the mainstream in the last three, four years. It's called photobiomodulation. It's the impact of light in modulating our biology. About 50% of the Sun's light is in the red and near infrared portion of the spectrum, which is what we receive in the morning up to a great degree, and toward dusk again, that light literally jump starts the engine of our cells, the mitochondria, and causes it to increase a vast amount of energy production. The energy that our cells use to literally run every facet of their functioning. Not only in terms of our physiology and metabolism, but cell reproduction, I mean, DNA reproduction, repair and so on. So by getting in the morning light, even for a short period of time, you literally energize all the cells of your body to actually begin to self heal themselves. And why is that important? This science right now is being used to treat everything from pain and inflammation to macular degeneration, glaucoma, dry eye, retinal diseases, and parkinson's Alzheimer's, and so on. Realize that the major diseases of the culture, cancer, heart disease, obesity, diabetes, Alzheimer's, macular degeneration, are all inseparably connected from light deficit. We are deprived of light. And so why do we know that? Because the vitamin D levels of those individuals is usually very low because they spend no time outdoors. So when we spend time outdoors, our vitamin D levels rise, and so the incidence of all those disorders reduces significantly. So getting outside, even for 20, 30 minutes a day, is absolutely critical to your health and synchronizing your rhythms, in other words, getting your body so synchronized with Mother Nature that you find yourself going to sleep at a time that is natural, not normal, and awakening at a time that is natural and not normal. And this is absolutely critical because you live on the East Coast. If I'm flying over to the east coast from Maui, I'm going to experience jet lag because my biology is set for Hawaii, but my body is in Massachusetts or wherever.

Most people are jet lagged and have never gotten on an airplane because their natural rhythms are totally out of sync with Mother Nature.

And we call that normal. And yet it's the furthest thing from normal. You spoke about practical.

Many of the things that we call spiritual are among the most practical aspects, because we use the term spiritual for many people. Oh, that's a weird kind of thing. But spiritual is merely talking about things that are not visible through the eyes, that are not. You don't access them through your ears, you access them through somewhere else.

Everyone knows that the roots of a tree are what stabilize and literally nourish that tree and keep it erected.

But unless we dig up the roots, we're not even aware that three quarters of the tree is under the ground. A huge amount of our humanity are roots that are invisible to the eye.

But they are continually guiding us and leading our journey. And that is the most exciting piece of what you might call the spiritual journey, is how inseparable it is from our health, our wellness, and perhaps most important, our level of daily contentment.

Well, fascinating what you were talking about with cellular biology and what we're knowing about, really the root of all these chronic illnesses that we're beset with and the whole process of aging altogether. And I know there's a lot of research going on around the epigenetic effects that control, you know, with aging, that the mitochondria are not producing energy the way they were at the cellular level. And so I know there's stem cell research going on that could sort of Try to reset that clockwork. Perhaps sunbathing, a very traditional form, is a more natural way to reset that and to keep. To keep that healthy production of energy, which is really, I think all those illnesses, those chronic illnesses.

You'Re speaking to in some ways have to do with a loss of energy, a loss of vitality.

Right? Yeah. But you're hitting upon something that's absolutely critical because 90% of disease starts off as dis ease. It's something we call stress. Well, what is stress? Stress is when we encounter something in life that we're allergic to, something that triggers some sort of psychophysiological reaction within us that diminishes our energy. It steals our energy. In fact, the mitochondria are significantly impacted by stress. What are the stresses of life? The stresses of life have so much to do.

With our conditioning and the fact that so much of our life is about who we think we are rather than who we actually are. I mean, an infant comes into the world, and once it comes out of its mother's womb and we realize it's healthy, we immediately wrap it up in a blue or a pink blanket.

Well, immediately you have a gender and you're given a name in relation to that, and on and on and on and on and on. And all that conditioning gives us an illusion of who we are. But is that who we actually are? And today we're very, very much aware of this gender identity. Because God knows, if you don't fit into the blue blanket or the pink blanket.

Your life is filled with distress at an incredibly high level. And so, so much of what is conditioned within us, which is to make things happen when they're not quite ready.

Or to hold on to things when they are ready. So much of our life is a pushing and a pulling, which is totally abnormal. And so.

Why this is so unique to me is that in the late 70s, I started asking people what colors they liked and they disliked.

Because all the books that were dealing with light and the use of color as a therapeutic tool said, oh, red is excitatory, blue is sedative. You know. Well, I didn't find that that's what was going on with my clients and patients at the time. And so first I started asking them, and I noticed they would have significant responses to colors that they didn't really like. And then I started to monitor their physiology. And I realized that when they viewed colors or imagined colors that they were comfortable with, something in their system went ah. And just. Just relaxed. But when they thought about a color or reviewed A color that for whatever reason they were uncomfortable with their physiology, reacted as if they had a stress reaction. And so I've been using color as a vibration that allows someone to notice.

Just how they respond to each of the colors of the light spectrum. Why is that important? Because all matter is frozen light. In other words, what we call life is just a formed expression of this energy of light. And so how we respond to the different portions of the light spectrum reflects how we respond to different experiences in our life. Specifically the experiences that create ease as well as those that create dis. Ease. And so one of the things that's been really exciting to me for the last 40, 45 years is utilizing color to assist people in very gently noticing when they first encounter stressors that create some sort of lack of ease.

And to respect that guidance so that they gradually desensitize from many of the stressors in life. In other words.

I try to assist them in becoming comfortable with what used to feel uncomfortable. And when that happens.

We can breathe much easier. And why that is so incredible is when we're breathing easily, the mind is usually quiet.

When the mind is active, the breathing is constricted. So I found these things to all be inseparable from.

Our entire being, our way of living, what stresses us, what creates the diseases and so on.

Well, I found that fascinating in your book, talking about your discoveries in color therapy and taking this homeopathic approach where when discovering what colors we had some discomfort with and possibly stress inducing and so forth, or a kind of allergy, the that by titrating small exposure, eventually that would heal that so we can expand our spectrum and be comfortable with the full spectrum of life. And then you would see people's lives actually open up psychologically, emotionally and spiritually. I found that absolutely fascinating. And as well that you described that if you take any particular element, the elements that make up the physical world that we know of uranium one, that we've all hear about, because nuclear energy, but all the different elements and gases and so forth, you excite them, they admit their unique color spectrum, just like our fingerprint, and that in their non excited state they absorb from the sun that same light signature. And thus you talked about, the real law of attraction is that we are continually in this.

Mode of kind of.

I don't know if you know our current situation in terms of what we're emitting, if that's what people traditionally talk about as the aura, our auric signature, perhaps that that is attracting to it the very same imprint. So perhaps as we Change, as we evolve, as we open, we start having a different relationship with the world in terms of what we're attracting and manifesting. So I found that really fascinating because we've heard so much about the law of attraction and these ideas and so forth. And to understand it at that level, I mean it even begins to, for me intuitively, maybe explain some things as complex as the laws of karma, which may even go past lifetimes, right? That really you're at this level that beginning to kind of see how that actually punks, not this mysterious thing like somebody up there is keeping the accounting books on our karma. But actually life functions its way at the most essential level.

But you know something, it's all working for us. Even when you think of the karma and so on.

When our system attracts to itself a mirror image of what it is giving off.

Literally our life becomes a perfect homeopathic remedy for our constitution.

And our constitution is only the current state of evolution of our lineage of the tens of millions of years that have preceded us. And so we are continually emitting the fullness.

Of our present state, which includes everything that has preceded us. And it brings that in in order to fine tune awareness. That is what triggers for me evolution or transformation as we call it.

It's the shit that makes the flowers grow. You know, that part of life that we say, ah.

But when we're able to.

To notice.

The beneficial effect of that, then rather than hindsight being 20 20, we start experiencing foresight as being 20 20. Rather than noticing things after the fact.

We begin to, to be so tuned in on some level.

That we have, we're able to just be guided away from things. And so, you know, when you mentioned titrating with salt, small amounts of color, what I notice is that if I say to someone.

As you visualize this color, what do you notice about your breathing? And so they say, well, it becomes a little shallower, but I can still keep breathing. Because we're so trained to just do it, just get through it, just push forward. My work is so very, very different. The moment you notice the slightest hesitation, take off the glasses.

In other words, become so sensitive to that guiding light that we don't have to fall down and trip. And so I noticed that when we respect that guidance at the subtlest level, it then expands for us and expands for us. And it's so fascinating for me to have worked with many, many thousands of people over the years and all of a sudden as they become more and more comfortable with full spectrum light.

Their life becomes a Full spectrum life. There is so much more that they become aware of than they were aware before. Both in those things that we call visible and those things that are not visible via the eyes but are incredibly clear to us.

You know, I don't know if you saw the. Yeah, I'm sure you probably did. The, some of the photographs from the, the latest telescope that has been put out there. And you know, seeing 13 billion years into the, based on the speed of light into the oranges of the universe and, and you know, from a, from, from the perspective of a self, you know, the vastness of the universe can feel pretty impersonal. On the other hand, if we're, if we are inseparable from all of that, then perhaps it does feel there's a benevolence on a vast scale. And you were kind of pointing at that this is for us that there's some kind of inherent benevolence within life. And so we're at the end of our time here. But just a final question. Some of the great non dual spiritual traditions and yogic traditions, when they talk about the nature of mind, the nature of consciousness, they often talk about having these three qualities. One, that it is.

Empty of any kind of inherent self that anyone could find. That it, that it is luminous. And some people mistake that to mean visual luminosity. It can be, but it's also just that it's aware that it's not dark. There's awareness, there's cognition, there is consciousness. And third, that it's completely unimpeded. Unimpeded in spatial time, in temporal time, across. Right. So these qualities. And so you know, I, I often wonder sometimes, you know, to the extent of being able to, you know, through meditation, have some experiences that feel relatively non self like and relatively free. And you seem to, you know, like I guess the question, you know, that you talk about the unconscious mind or that witness that is witnessing, you know, whether, okay, I'm kind of touching in with that aspect of my own being or is that just the universal of all of our being? In other words, it's this light you're talking about actually self aware. And so we're participating in the self awareness of the universe versus I finally got into my own liberated awareness or something like that. I'm just curious about your, your maybe some final thoughts on that.

I think someone once said, no one is free until everyone is free.

My sense is that we often confuse consciousness as something individual.

For me, I use the term pure awareness, which for me.

Is just about.

A noticing from no point of view.

And.

My. My sense is.

That when the drop that we call ourselves.

Falls into the ocean.

The drop doesn't exist anymore. What exists is an ocean of awareness. Call it consciousness or pure awareness.

That is common to you, to me, to all the plants, all the creatures, all living things. The universe itself.

Is this field of awareness that has no desire. As the great saint.

The third Zen patriarch, said, the great way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, Everything is clear and undisguised. What was being discussed is that awareness from no point of view. It's non dual.

It is just noticing and it notices everything.

All the time. It is everywhere. It is exactly what the biblical traditions describe as godliness. And so our essence.

Is that which cannot be described.

I think if we are graced enough.

To.

Find ourselves disappearing.

Into that space, we notice that not only is the seeing from no point of view, but there is nothing spiritual and there is nothing practical. There just is an isness. It's not a world or an experience of problems and solutions.

It just is. And.

That'S happening continually.

I'm really grateful for our time today.

Me too. Dr. Jacob Lieberman.

Right.

I think I'm feeling left with that kind of aura of the benevolence of what is and what just is. So beautiful. Really enjoyed our interview and thank you so much. I encourage everyone to check out this amazing book that dropped into my life, and I became immediately enthralled with just the title. I'm a bit of a book of files, so I see books, I'm like, you know. But the title just drew me in, and I've. I've already read it twice, and I'm still. Still exploring. So thank you so much.

My pleasure.

Be well.

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