EP 209: Sharon Salzberg | Finding Freedom Through Spiritual Self-Care

Welcome to Radical Responsibility, the podcast dedicated to ridding the world of blame and shame, where we explore the issues you care about from a unique perspective, 100% ownership for each and every circumstance we face in life, day in and day out.

Hi. Welcome to the Radical Responsibility Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Fleet Maul, and I'm really excited to share a conversation I had with my dear friend Sharon Salzberg, the renowned Buddhist teacher, mindfulness teacher, teacher of loving kindness practices, New York Times best selling author, an incredible teacher and beloved, really, one of the more beloved mindfulness or meditation teachers in our world today. So with Sharon, we're going to talk about the critical role of self knowledge in spiritual care. We're going to talk about spiritual self care, tools that build openness and freedom. We're going to talk about managing difficult internal states when they arise, shifting from isolation to interconnectedness through meditation, participating in guided loving kindness practice for an expanded sense of goodness, and much, much more. So I wanted to remind you that if you enjoy these podcasts, please subscribe on your favorite platform so you don't miss an episode. Also wanted to let you know if you'd like to download your copy of my free ebook on neurosomatic mindfulness, you can do so at heartmind Co nsmpodcast. That's heartmind Co nsmpodcast. You can also order a copy of Radical Responsibility, my book Radical Responsibility, and receive over $1,000 in valuable free bonuses by ordering the book from your favorite bookseller like Amazon or Barnes and Noble or Indie Books, and then going to the book website, which is radicalresponsibilitybook.com and then uploading there your order number or receipt. And you will receive from Heart mind Institute over $1,000 in valuable free bonuses, including courses and challenges. We'd also like to remind you to join our Facebook group@www.facebook.com groups hmisummitcommunity. We'd also like you to consider becoming a member of our Heart Mind All Access membership and community where you will have access to over a thousand hours of some of the most transformational teachings from the world's leading experts in healing, trauma transformation, positive neuroplasticity, meditation, psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, and much, much more. So you can go to heartmind Co. Hmm. Heartmind Co. Hmm. And learn all about that. Also, please follow us on instagram@instagram.com heartmindinstitute and on facebook@facebook.com heartmindinstitute and if you don't remember those things, you can always just go to heartmind Co to learn all about our programs. Okay, so let's get started with this amazing conversation with beloved mindfulness teacher Sharon Salzberg.

I'm really thrilled to be here today with Sharon Salzberg. Welcome, Sharon.

Thank you so much.

Well, it's really great to have you. We're really honored to have you be part of our summit. I know you need no introduction, but I'm going to share a bit of your bio anyway with our audience and then we'll jump right into the conversation. Sound good?

Sounds great.

All right, so Sharon Salzberg is a meditation pioneer, world renowned teacher, and New York Times bestselling author. She is one of the first to bring mindfulness and loving kindness meditation to mainstream American culture over 45 years ago, inspiring generations of meditation teachers and wellness influencers with her relatable, demystifying approach. Sharon's co founder of the Insight Meditation Society and The author of 12 books, including the New York Times bestseller Real Happiness, now in its second edition, and her seminal work, Loving Kindness. Her forthcoming release, Real Life the Journey from Isolation to Openness and Freedom, is set for release in April of 2023. So it was just out as. As this summit is going live and really encourage everybody to check it out. And we're going to be talking about your book today. So her podcast, the Meta hour, has amassed 6 million downloads and features interviews with thought leaders from the mindfulness movement and beyond. And today we're on day four of the summit where we're focused on spiritual self care. And, you know, you can't really completely divide body from mind, from spirit and heart and so forth, but still it's a. It's a framework to kind of talk about. So we're kind of looking at self care through the spiritual lens a bit, if you will. And so, Sharon, you're often described as an exceptionally clear teacher who guides with gentleness, simplicity, love, and equanimity. So let's talk a little bit about your pathway to really the spirituality that you manifest and how you show up in the world with such grace and ease. And how did you come to this? And how do you continue to take care of yourself and show up in the world in this way?

Well, that's very beautiful. Thank you so much for saying that. I think I go back to my origins as a meditation teacher, which was this time in 1974. I had been in India for a few years practicing, studying meditation, and I was about to come back to the States for what I was absolutely convinced was my little brief interlude back home. And then I was gonna go back to India for the rest of my life and be as happy as I was in a state of discovery and learning and being a student. And I went to see one of my teachers, a woman named Deepama, which is like a nickname, Deepa's mother, Deepama, who was living in Calcutta. And I went to basically get her blessing for my very brief trip back to the US and when I told her I was going back, she said, well, when you go back, you'll be teaching. And I said, no, I won't. And she said, yes, you will. I said, no, I won't. Yes, you will. I said, no, I won't. It was ludicrous to me that somebody thought I could do that and that I was going to do that. And then she said two things that were really kind of amazing. First was she said, you really understand suffering. That's why you should teach. And it's true, like many people, I'd had a very traumatic and complex childhood. And like, for many people, that was the go. That's why I was in India at the age of 18. But I never really thought of it as kind of an enrichment, you know, that would help me help others. And then she said to me, you can do anything you want to do it. You're thinking, you can't do it. That's going to stop you. And I left her. We would call it probably a tenement room up on four flights of stairs. I walked down those stairs, and I kept thinking, no, I won't. That's ridiculous. I came back to the States, and of course, as things unfolded, that's exactly what happened. She was right.

And I keep looking at that moment when she said, you really understand suffering. That's why you should teach. And I thought, wow. She didn't say, like, your realization is so awesome, you know, or your depth of scholarship is so beyond belief. She said, you really understand suffering. That's why you should teach. And so I go back to that again and again in terms of this is real life, so to speak, you know, these are people's issues. We're all going through something or have gone through something. And yet, through the practices and through the community that I was able to have, you know, that got created around me, I had come to a kind of happiness that I never imagined was possible. And I want to see that for people. So I just always go back to that motivation.

Well, I know you. You teach in a very universal, secular sense, as well as in the Buddhist tradition. And in that Buddhist tradition, that you and I share, of course, that's the first noble truth, the truth of suffering. So that kind of makes sense. And. Yeah. And you know, and that within that teaching is the whole notion of, you know, suffering is inescapable in this life. If we're born into a body, we're going to suffer. And then of course there's all the kind of self created suffering that we can learn to do less of over time, hopefully for ourselves and others.

Yeah, indeed.

Yeah. So your new book, Real Life the Journey from Isolation to Openness and Freedom. So you talk about the experience of fear and disappointment that leads to a constricted and often smaller way of life. And it does seem like in life, at moments while we are sort of constricting and fear and survival mode, or we're opening, something is calling us somehow. We're opening, we're opening our heart, we're opening our mind. It seems to be that's almost the rhythm of life. And it also seems that the way we approach our spiritual journey can even become constricted. We can let that kind of fear and survival, ego, mind constriction even take over our spiritual journey. So I wonder if you could talk to us about, you know, before we talk about how to open and freedom, let's talk about that constricted state and how that works and what that's all about and how it impacts us.

Well, once I decided on the arc of the book, which was a journey from constriction and feeling trapped and maybe being defined by the circumstances of our life to greater expansiveness and openness and freedom, I, I just began asking myself, well, when do we tend? When do I tend? But when really, when do we tend to feel the most narrow, the most that life is small, that we have no options, that you know, we're locked in in some way. And so I really looked at that and of course from the Buddhist point of view of that, that context it was would be greed, hatred and delusion. When we are lost, not feeling even feeling intense desire or greed or, or anger or whatever. But when we are lost in it, when we're overcome by it, when it's sort of dominating us, taking over, which also happens when we hate it and fear it. You know, so you could say almost when we're in, we're not in right relationship to these forces, they are very sticky, you know, and they really can entrap us. So that's kind of greed, not appreciating where we are or what we have or who we are and being Consumed by some vision out there somewhere, needing to control what is. Because lest it change, we will be left with nothing.

And anger, not anger as a kind of force of clarity, but anger that is chronic, consuming, always dissatisfied, never taking in the joy or being able to allow in the beauty but. But really being locked into what is wrong. And delusion, which is kind of my favorite actually just being spaced out, you know, numb, confused. It's just sort of out there. Yeah, let life go on. I'm not going to notice much, it's too hard. And all of those qualities really, you could say, and you sort of referenced this a little bit earlier, were reasonable adaptations in certain circumstances. You know, like just as leaving all sense of your body can be a very smart thing to do at certain times and yet you don't want that to be your kind of ready place, the go to place, the constant place as an option for a time of duress or stress. And so I tried to look at it in that way. Not that these states are bad or wrong, but if we are lost in them, they cause a lot of suffering for ourselves and for others. And then I tried to sort of have, you can almost say a more contemporary look at forms of those states. So for greed or craving I talked about addiction. For anger or hatred I settled upon the. The kind of lacerating self hatred that is shame, which doesn't really lead anywhere. It's not a state that allows us to change or develop a new way of being very readily. You know, it just kind of holds us in place and delusion in that when we are that spaced out, we're really relying on the vision of someone else to tell us what's what. And that's a very dangerous state and very, very narrow. And so. And all of those states are considered workable. There are means that are methods, techniques, or just a new way of being in surrounding those states when they do arise, that will allow them to be there but not take over and yet not be like the bitter enemy that we're trying to annihilate. So sometimes we call mindfulness the place in the middle where we're neither socked in nor are we pushing against, trying to deny. And that place we come to many, many ways. And I try to describe some of those ways in the book.

So it seems, I'm sure it's very. This idea of, you know, being in a constricted state and experiencing, you know, you know, difficult emotions kind of just overtaking us. And so I'm sure this is very familiar to all of Us and, and to one degree or another in many different ways and at different times in our lives. And, and it seems like on the one hand, part of it is a kind of momentum. And, you know, and, and the more we, you know, either push against or indulge in these, they. They keep. That momentum keeps going. And it just does feel like it almost comes and goes like the weather and just takes us over. And then part of it seems to have to do with sort of identification what we identify with. And, and, you know, when you're talking about these, you know, from the Buddhist tradition, you know, greedy.

And anger, hatred and, and delusion or ignorance, you know, these are kind of. Once we assume a separate self, then we're kind of set up that way to see the world as either force against us or inconsequential. So what's for us? We tend to want more of what, what we think is against us. We're going to push away or. And then we're going to ignore what doesn't seem to, you know, and that sets us up for that kind of fundamental relationship. And that's just a human condition where we all start. But it seems like it's helpful to understand the dynamics of that. And then it seems like you're pointing in a direction of.

Not that there's necessarily an escape from that, but if we're willing to embrace it with awareness, with mindfulness and loving kindness, there might be a way to lessen the power of that and open the door to something else.

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And that's partly what's difficult about it, because it's not a confrontation as we ordinarily might imagine it. You know, like, I'm going to annihilate this, or I'm going to get on top of this and never feel it again or whatever we, we imagine. And it's not going to be that way. It's going to be. These states may rise. These states may rise a lot. We don't know. Depends on conditions. They certainly, over time might tend to arise less frequently or with less intensity, but we actually don't know because something might happen. You know, I have a bad day and. And there it is. And you. I often, I would say to myself or hear from other people, that's still here. You know, like, I've been meditating all these years. It's still here. What do you know? What a surprise. But it's okay because as you say, it doesn't have to have power over us. As one of my teachers is Tibetan teacher Sonny Rinpoche would say, it's not the thought that's the problem, it's the glue. You know, we take something to heart. We can't imagine feeling anything else ever. We add isolation to the mix. I'm the only one who ever feels this or a sense of this is disgraceful. I've lost control. I should be in control at all times of all things. And we just keep adding stuff to the mix and then it's very cluttered and all the space is taken up by all of these add ons and it's sort of a mess because we can't see the essential nature of that original emotion, let's say, that has come up, that it's changing, that it's transitory, that it itself is insubstantial, it's conditioned. We're just not there because we're so lost in it.

You know, it seems like, I mean, I think times have always been challenging to one degree or another. And it's no small thing being a human being. I think it's a great challenge just to live our lives in any time. And, and at the same time, it does seem like we're going through some really challenging times right now. And also, I mean, just in my own sphere of the people I interact with, it's always amazing me how many people are struggling and how many people have relatives that, you know, or in a hospital or a child with cancer. I mean, there's just so much going on all the time in people's lives. And then what we have going on globally and you know, with, with you know, the existential threat of climate change and you know, the incredible. It seems like rather than coming together to solve our problems, we're getting more divided and all, all of that. And, and it can, you know, people can start feeling hopeless and you know, if you pay much attention to the news, which isn't the, it should not be the only way we get information about the state of the world because it's very biased to the negative. But nonetheless we can, we can, you know, and so I'm wondering from, you know, through this spiritual lens of self care, because even if we know, you know, if we've learned that the way I need to work with, you know, my habitual patterns of, of suffering and negative emotion is, is mindfulness and loving kindness and, and you know, if we, we've read the books, we know we practice still to apply that, we have to, we have to be a kind of a halfway decent place, halfway resilient, halfway if we're not taking care of ourselves, we probably won't even be able to do what we know to do, you know, in the midst of our suffering. And so I'm wondering, you know, in that, you know, some strategies for, you know, taking care of ourselves spiritually so we can employ wiser strategies to deal with the challenges that we're all dealing with, which seem to be getting pretty intense these days.

Yeah, I mean, I think they are very intense for many, many people.

For me, it comes down to, first of all, self knowledge. When I talk about all that stuff, we tend to add to the mix that tends to make things worse. I'd say that my biggest issue is probably the sense of isolation and that when I feel I'm challenged, that I am misunderstood or I'm in some situation, I can't figure out how to fix it in any way, shape or form. You know, the most toxic thing that I might add to that, just the force of habit, is that sense of isolation. So I look for that.

And so sort of knowing yourself, knowing your patterns, not because they're horrible or you're a horrible person for having them, even having them repeatedly, but because with the knowledge, you have the opportunity to ask yourself, is this actually true, you know, or, or is this something that I am just accustomed to? And I think also when you say it's very true, you know, that there are certain conditions, there's certain other experiences that are kind of building blocks to feeling that we, we can't handle something that yesterday we might have handled really differently because we had some sleep the night before last, not last night, you know, that we can be exhausted. We can, we can it just be pressured. It's like too much. It's. The straw that broke the camel's back has arrived, you know, and so we have to be aware of that, that these states aren't fixed, nor is our reaction, and that the stress dynamic is really a dynamic. There's the pressure or the circumstance or the incident, and then there's the resource with which it's being met. And sometimes when we examine it in that way, people think, well, you're not going to do anything about the circumstance. You're going to just going to work on like inner strength and spiritual values. And that's not true, of course. We, we do work on externals as much as possible, but we try to do it from a different place. You know, not so desperate and not so feeling like I have nothing going. You know, I'm like bereft. I'm. I'm just lost, because that's not going to help, really. It's just not going to be effective. And so we work with building inner resource. We work with having a sense of community, not feeling so desperately alone in facing challenge. And we have to pay attention to tools of resilience we know have worked for us perhaps in the past. Or even just the thing like sleep is really very important to look at. And I think about some of the work I've done with caregivers, so called caregivers, people who, whether in their personal lives, with family, or in their professional lives, in the way they work, are in a way on the front lines of suffering. They're dealing with someone else's situation. And sometimes day after day after day. And there's a certain kind of ethos about not taking care of yourself because that's too selfish. That really starts to creep in for many people. And then, you know, it's a devastating situation because people just burn out. So. And we could talk about balance and all of that in terms of caring for oneself as well. But I remember doing many workshops for this population and we would always start the first day with having people either journaling or reflecting on.

What, you know, one column, let's say you're journaling could be what's actually a great source of stress in your life. And because in the workplace where you know, we have like domestic violence, shelter workers or nurses, or, you know, people all doing kind of the same work, they would write that down. And it was often surprising because people might have assumed it would be, you know, it's the terrible stories I hear every day and, and it's the intractable system or. But often it was something like bad communication with a colleague. So that was just interesting to note. And then in the next column we'd say, why don't you write down what you do to get a break, to feel a sense of upliftment, to get some perspective on things, to just kind of be able to breathe for a little while. And I think in four years of one program with domestic violence shelter workers, I think every single person wrote down, listened to music. It was a different kind of music, but whatever. Some people have a strong faith, tradition of some kind. They'd write that down. Sometimes people would write down, I drink a lot. And then in the next column we'd say, look back at what you just wrote down for your tool of resilience and write down how you feel about it. And if they'd written down I drink a lot, maybe they wrote down then I'm a little worried about that. You know, that's my go to place or I took that particular exercise. I was working with caregivers in the military, like chaplains and medics. And somebody had written down in that second column, I get out in nature, I go kayaking. It's the most amazing experience. I feel just this kind of openness. And then in the next column he wrote down, this is a true story. He wrote, wrote down, I haven't done it in about seven years. And you think, well, you know, maybe get on it, you know, so that's part of, I think, what we need to do as well. This is, as you say, you know, really difficult time. And the things we know have helped us in the past should not be abandoned right now.

So I want, I want to.

Talk more about this isolation issue a minute. And, and one of our greatest resources for resilience is our connections with other and so forth. And, and some it seems.

I don't know if counterintuitive is right where. But I even remember when I was young, when I would really get in, I was dealing with a lot of pain in my 20s and 30s. And when the pain would really, I would isolate. Instead of reaching out for connection and help, I'd isolate.

Right.

And it just makes it worse. So I do want to talk about that. But first, again, looking at spiritual care from a. I mean, self care from a spiritual perspective.

So meditation itself, you've talked about increasing our self knowledge, self understanding, having the insights in terms of how kind of the mechanics of our suffering works and you know, embracing all that with loving kindness and acceptance. The overall, you know, that middle. You talked about mindfulness, that place in the middle between either getting lost in our emotions or pushing them away. But I'm also wondering if, you know, meditation can maybe two other aspects that if we're regular meditators and we spend some significant time in meditation, there's a quality of just letting the mind rest. You know, if we develop that capacity to just let the mind rest, which I think can actually be very restful and renewing and resilience building for our body mind system. And then the other is the gradual, not to demonize the notion of having a self, but. But the gradual dissolution of that being the primary reality, right? The maybe holding that sense of me as opposed to the world a lot lighter. And it seems like those two things can happen through meditation that could ultimately be really foundational. I wonder if you could address that a little bit.

I think that's really true. Not Only in terms of a kind of deeper view of interconnection which happens, but a genuine sense of not feeling kind of like I am in the center of the universe and everyone else is sort of marginalized. And the sense of self and other and us and them, which is just a construct and may be useful in certain situations, certain contexts, is seen as a construct. And so, I mean, the example I sometimes use is I was riding in a car with a friend, and we were caught in this terrible, horrible, awful traffic and complained bitterly about it the entire time. And then my friend turned to me and said, well, we're the traffic, too. You know, I thought, oh, that's right. It's like, they're probably complaining about us. And I realized that in my prior state, you know, before she said that, it was a certain sense of, like, it's my road. You know, I own this. I am in the center of the universe. You are an interloper in my way. Why don't you hurry up? And when she said that, and it was almost like that centrality fell away, and it was just us. We were all the traffic. And you know what? We've got a problem, which is traffic. And I think from that perspective, we actually can get a resolution in a much better way than feeling. You're in my way. You're the problem.

And so I think part of what insight happens in the natural course of meditation is that kind of weird centrality of, it's me, it's all about me, and you are in my way, that falls away because it's simply untrue. It's. It's. It's something we hold to and that maybe we can utilize in certain contexts, but when the way we hold to it is. Is not helpful and just causes a lot of suffering because it's a distortion.

Yeah, well, you're. The story you shared, it reminded me. One of my teachers one time was kind of talking about, you know, we're in the love people business, you know, and. And he's kind of, you know, that we all kind of sometimes think, oh, people. People are so difficult. Right? He said, don't forget you're somebody else's people.

That's great. That's great.

So let's talk about. Because I know one of the arcs in your book is moving from isolation to openness, from either constriction or isolation, which are related to openness and then freedom. And as I mentioned a moment ago, you know, we have internal sources of resilience that we can work on building and. But Then we have, you know, our. Our social connections, our connectedness with. With each other, with, you know, our own sort of support circles. And even with the larger world, the natural world is really one of the deepest sources of our resilience. And yet, often when we're suffering, we do tend to isolate and we identify with our suffering and we feel isolated by our suffering. And. And it seems like then we, instead of doing what would be helpful to get support from others and also realize that we're not alone in our suffering, that there's millions of people going through what we're going through, but. Or at least there's a few we can connect with. But could you talk about how to maybe make that shift and find our way back into connection and realize the benefits of, you know, actually being connected to others and having that really be a resource for us? Because it just seems so easy to get into that isolation, and then it can just be kind of a rabbit hole we go down. It can be really hard to get ourselves back out of that.

Yeah, I mean, I think partly. I think for me, it's been through just paying attention, and partly it's actually just through meditation, which I consider one of the weirdest facets of meditation, because you would think it's, you know, something that many people do alone. Many people do with their eyes closed. You think it would be the most isolating activity ever. And it could be, but I think with genuine insight, that that bottom does fall out, and you do have a sense of interconnection. That's just the way the world is. You know, one of my favorite things in going into a company or an organization to teach has been to ask how many other people need to do their job well for you to do your job well? And it's an interesting reflection, you know, for many people. I remember a physician running a large medical practice in a hospital in sort of early Covid days said to me, you know, who I have an increased appreciation for is the cleaning staff. And I thought, well, yeah, you know, look at how we. I mean, now we call them essential workers, but, you know, we need people to do their jobs. I thought that from the first time I was working with domestic violence shelter workers, I thought these are the kinds of people that are holding up society as we know it. And, you know, we need them to do their work. They're very unheralded, uncelebrated, often not paid well. And yet this is a kind of interdependence that has to be recognized, and things are different, you know, it's not always very emotional, that kind of opening or. But it's very clarifying in its own way. And it just happens, you know, I think what. What a weird thing to happen when you're all alone with your eyes closed and, you know, looking at your breath or something like that. But it does happen because it's the truth of things. And so we see much more clearly and there is a sense of collectivity, and we respond to that in some way. And even just as human beings, totally apart from meditation, I think when we are paying attention, there's something that happens along those lines. Like, I was the last time thus far.

That I actually taught in person, in a group, was in March 2020, and.

I was in New York City. I was teaching in a place where I just gotten there from traveling all month in California and was teaching in a place where the speaker sits, like, in the front row of the audience and then is introduced, and then you go up on the stage and you speak. So anxiety was extremely high. People were very freaked out. Illness was really starting to grow there. And I was sitting in the audience. Next to me was a woman who was immensely anxious, just overwhelmingly anxious. And so I said to her, well, you know, there are these breathing techniques where there are many kinds, but, you know, one common thread often is that if your out breath is longer than your in breath, the parasympathetic nervous system will take over from the sympathetic nervous system and you'll start to chill. And she wasn't interested in that at all. So I said, well, there are these tools of loving kindness, meditation, where you consciously are offering well wishes to yourself and to others, and you really kind of amplify that sense of connection. She wasn't interested at all. So then I said to her, is there anyone you can help? She lit up and she got really radiant. She said, you know, I have this neighbor, this elderly neighbor, and I could slip a note under her door and offer to get her groceries or something like that. And then she felt a kind of calm, you know.

And it was so interesting for me. I left a few days later for Barry. And, you know, but the memory of that has stayed with me, you know, through these years. Now.

When we pay attention to what we might do for someone else, then it almost unites us with a place inside ourselves that's whole, that's complete, even for a moment. And we can take some rest there. We can take some refuge there.

Yeah, I think it's. It's. That's a. That's a wonderful story. And it's. I think it's important to remember that we are, even though, you know, the human condition, we do have all this kind of fear and survival wiring on us, and we can get caught in that. But we're also hardwired for altruism and compassion and. And for connecting with others. We're social beings. And if we, you know, if we remember that, and sometimes it might just be taking a simple step like that to kind of re. Engage that circuitry of our nervous system and brain and so forth and heart rather than the other circuitry. Right. So while we talk now, maybe more about that, you know, that. That pathway, you know, from feeling isolated or constricted to beginning to move into a more open state where, you know, there could be qualities of connection or generosity or compassion or altruism or just. Just openness or just, you know, receptivity. I wonder if you could just talk about that journey a little bit and how we can. What are the markers of that? And then how can we begin to cultivate that momentum so we're not continually getting pulled back into that isolation.

Some of it, I think, is. Is intentionality. It's not force or coercion, but it's making an experiment in your life.

You know. Today, can I resolve to thank.

Four people who've helped me in some way. You know, the bus driver.

You know, people that we normally might look through or ignore.

Today, I will really resolve to try to listen nowhere in conversation with somebody, whether it's on Zoom or in person. And we're often thinking about the next person we need to talk to or the email we need to write, and we realize we're just not there. And we let go and we re. Arrive, which is exactly the gesture, the mental gesture we do in meditation, right? We let go and we come back.

And we do that in conversation and just keep paying attention, keep noticing. Because one of the things that thwarts us is just our conditioning. The things we've been taught, the things we've been led to believe, like.

Vengefulness, endless vengefulness is strength.

Being generous or grateful as stupid. You will end up just letting people hurt you, and you'll just be smiling like an idiot, you know, And. But is that true? What is the experience of being generous? What is the experience of. Of listening, of being kind? What is it like when you're just obsessed about what someone else has done or someone else has said, and how are you going to get back to them? Is that really strong? Is it?

And so we. We use that Power of awareness, which is very strong in itself and, and we pay attention to all these things so we can see for ourselves. And I was always struck by like, even before the pandemic how people were saying that in many places around the world people were experiencing an epidemic of loneliness. And, and I kept reading about these different clinical conditions and how social connection could play a role in some healing. And I kept thinking, well, it can't just be a numbers game, like I only have two friends, I need eight. You know, it must also be an inner sense because I think we certainly know, probably all of us know somebody who leads a fairly solitary existence but seems immensely connected to humanity, to the planet they care, maybe even people, which always is very striking to me. People have gone through some difficulties, some trauma, and they're not completely self absorbed, you know, like I've certainly met people. Well, even like the teacher I mentioned earlier, the woman Deepa Mahud had extraordinary personal suffering in her life. And.

You know, and I remember going to see her and she'd be so concerned with you, like, how was your journey? Do you need some tea? You know, something like that. And the boy, if I'd been through it, she'd been through, I don't know if I'd be that concerned about someone else's journey, you know, on a train. And yet she was.

And so having some sense of connection, person by person, encounter by encounter is really possible for us. And I think it does take a kind of intentionality. You have to see your life as a creative medium and feel like there's certain guideposts, there's certain north stars I want to navigate my life by. And that doesn't mean you'll be perfect by any means, but you have a vision of possibility and then everything becomes kind of interesting.

So you pointed to a number of things there. Certainly I think it's good for any and all of us to have connections, have our support circles, have people we can talk to and literally as human beings having physical contact with each other generally and hugging and you know, being connected, spending time with others has been proven to be very healthy for us and that the well known longitudinal study at Harvard of Adult Development has shown that one of the most critical factors to health and wellbeing, longevity and overall life happiness is having relationships we can count on. So all that's quite important and I think important for us all to focus on and invest in. And at the same time we know there are beings who have developed the ability in isolation to be quite happy and fulfilled the Yogis and the hermits. And so somehow they're doing something internally that's creating that same. The same neurological effects that we create with each other. Right. I think they're learning how to do that internally. But it's good to realize that there is a. We do have inner resources. It's good to connect with the outer resources, but not forget that we have inner resources and maybe somehow be working on both of those. And I also like what you said about, you know, really finding in just the ordinary, most ordinary ways, connecting with our interconnectedness and interdependence, you know, all the people that, whether we realize it or not, we're completely dependent and connected. All these people that make our lives possible. You know, our, our colleague Rosie Joan Health Exit PI Zen Center. I'm sure you're familiar with their meal champ, but one line in it is, is all these beings who gave their. Their lives and labor that we may eat right. And, you know, if you take that reflection out and you just think about the things you do even in one day, the clothes you wear, the food you eat, the services you rely on, we're connected to countless beings who are making our lives possible. So I think that very ordinary access point, I think is. Is quite wonderful. I'm wondering about just a little bit more about, you know, maybe connecting practice and community. I mean, you've, you know, you co founded Barry the Insight Meditation Society with Joseph Goldstein and Jack Kornfield way back in 1974. And so that's been a long journey and you're still there at Barry and, and, and so I'm sure that community has evolved and changed over many years. And you probably. There are times in your life when you were very kind of deep in that, and there are times when you probably have taken a break from it and. But I'm just curious about the connection between a spiritual life and Sangha and, and our community and how those can work together to, to deepen our. Our self care.

Well, it's something, you know, when I came back From India in 1974, much to my surprise, and ended up living here.

I think there were things I just didn't notice that easily, you know, like I'd met Joseph Goldstein in India. When we came back, Joseph came back about six months before I did. We ended up in Boulder at Naropa's first summer inaugural summer. And that's where we met Jack Cornfield and many other people. And.

Jack and Joseph and I and a few other friends began teaching together, just responding to invitations and we always had one another, you know, which I didn't quite appreciate.

The immense value of that because it was just there. It was something that was given. And it was only later talking to students that I realized, oh, this person works so many hours a day at some place that is really. They find it a little shady ethically, you know, and they're. They're. They're not that comfortable, and it's. It's challenging. And they don't have people to talk to that easily about the things they're trying out in their life or.

You know, they're caught in some place where someone else is kind of being mercilessly run down and they feel uncomfortable about saying, I feel weird, you know, about this person. They're not even here.

And, you know, this is the third hour we've talked about them or whatever it is. You know, people felt incredibly alone in this society and didn't have what I was just taking for granted. And. And so it took a real kind of consciousness shift for each of us, you know, Jack and Joseph and I, to kind of say, oh, this is something that we really need to emphasize and not assume that everyone has that kind of refuge of real friends.

That are supportive of what you're trying to do with your life. And so we began talking about it more and people.

Created to some degree or another. Not everyone is, you know, terribly extroverted. But I've been so intrigued to watch what people create for that support. And it could be that communities grow around certain geographical locales. And you can actually Google, you know, like insight, meditation, sitting, whatever city you're in. Um, and, you know, they bring meals to people who are getting out of the hospital, or they really form that kind of community. And also people get buddies, you know, like, I have a group that we've been meeting for so many years now. We don't meet actually. It's just online.

Where we were in someone's apartment one day. They're just like five of us in total. And he said that when he gets up in the morning, if he turns right, he's at his computer and his desk. If he turns left, he's at his sitting cushion. So we formed this really support group for him. We called it the Turn Left Community, or sangha, which is the poly word for community. And every day when we've practiced, we send an email to the other four, and the subject line is always turned left. And if you, like, you say, you know, turned left still in Barry, or, you know, rained here today, or I fell asleep or Nothing, because the important thing is the subject line. And like any group, I think it brings up so many different things. And that's part of what's interesting and also can be fun just to see your own mind. Like when we started this, I'd had a daily practice at that point for years. So I was always the first one to write. And then I'd go through some trip like they think I'm showing off, they think I'm a goody goody, you know, I should wait. Then I'd wait like seven hours after I practice to actually write. Now it's, you know, very casual and kind of ease filled. But.

I would think they're counting on me and I'm counting on them and together we can really support each other. Or people tell me at the end of a retreat they would tell me something like, I found a gratitude buddy and we're just going to text each other every day with something we had to be grateful for from the day.

And it doesn't have to be like an immense group, it doesn't have to be time consuming, but it is so supportive to feel that you're not alone.

Yeah. Personally, I think gratitude is one of the deepest spiritual practices. And I do it in different ways at different times, journaling and so forth. And lately I'm part of my morning routine with some meditation and breath work and tapping. And I do a certain point, I just run through my whole gratitude kind of thing while I'm doing tapping or breathing or something like that. And it's really just completely shifts our state. Right. It's very powerful. So in a moment I'm going to ask you if you would lead us in, in a practice, kind of in the spirit of your book or one of the practices you share in your book. But first I just like to. The arc of your book is from isolation, constriction to openness and then freedom. And this notion of freedom, you know, in many of the spiritual traditions there is this notion that there could be some something called freedom, spiritual freedom, psychological freedom, something to aspire to. And for a lot of us, we probably, you know, be happy if we could suffer a little less. But still there is this idea out there of freedom. I wonder if you could just talk about that a little bit.

Well, suffering a little less is good. You know, I'll go for that.

The confounding thing about that notion for me, you know, was realizing that it did not mean the absence of the irritant, you know, or the fear or the problem. But.

When those Things arise in a tiny. I mean, the example they say from the Buddhist times, like if you put a teaspoon full of salt in a small glass full of water because it's such a small vessel receiving it, that water is going to be strongly impacted. Whereas if you take a teaspoonful of salt and they would say a chariot full of salt. So let's say truck full salt, and you put it in a pond full of fresh water, because of the immensity, because of the openness of that which is receiving it, it's not going to be so impactful. So we spend a lot of our time interested in that smolt and thinking if we can do anything about it. Sometimes we can, sometimes we can't. And we don't necessarily look at the openness of what is receiving the salt. And therein lies a great deal of our power because we can't always affect the salt, you know. And so it's that sense that I really began defining freedom as not being so enmeshed in the old habits that would come up and also not fighting it, not adding a whole bunch of stuff, if you could say, like, fear arose in me, and it comes in a fairly open, empty space, and I immediately start throwing in all kinds of stuff that's going to take up all the space. So what if I don't do that? Or I see I'm starting to do that, and I can let go and let the space unfold and whatever move through it, it's different. And so even in the face of some really challenging circumstances, I think we can feel free. And that opens us to what I was talking about before. A time of intentionality. You know, we start to feel resentful and we realize. Been down that road before. I don't really need to do it again. Let me try some compassion or some loving kindness, something like that.

It seems like what you're pointing to with freedom is that sense of space, the amount of space around the things that arise in our life, all the different energies that move through our life and how much space can we have around that? And. Yeah, and thus the analogies, the meditation analogies around the waves and the ocean and the, you know, the. The sky like mine, with clouds coming and going. You know, this is anything that can give us that greater sense of space. Beautiful. Well, would you lead us in a. In a practice, Sharon, to.

I would be so happy to. Thank you.

Wonderful.

So you can sit comfortably.

Close your eyes or not, however you feel most at ease. If you're accustomed to meditating with your eyes open, that's fine.

If you get really sleepy, it's a good idea to open your eyes and just continue on. We're going to do some loving kindness practice.

We're going to begin by actively taking delight in our own goodness, which is very uncomfortable for a lot of people.

So much of our time can be spent remembering the mistakes we made and our negative actions. And those may all be true, but we're going to get bigger than that and consciously point our attention towards something good we've done.

Maybe a very small thing, but bring it to mind.

And if no particular action comes up, think of a good quality that's alive within you.

And if nothing comes up, think about the fact that you're doing this exercise right now.

We don't do this to be egotistical or conceited.

But to rejoice in the potential for goodness that we also share in.

And we're then going to silently repeat phrases that reflect what we would wish most deeply for ourselves, not just for today, but in an enduring way.

Phrases that are big enough, that are general enough so that they can represent a gift we would give to ourselves and ultimately to all of life.

Common phrases include, may I be safe, be happy, be healthy.

Live with ease.

Live with ease means of the things of day to day life, like livelihood and family, may not be struggle.

May I live with ease. May I be safe.

Be happy.

Be healthy.

Live with ease.

Use these phrases or other phrases that are personally meaningful to you. Just gather all your attention behind one phrase at a time.

And then let it go.

People often say to me, who am I asking? Like I'm begging, I'm imploring. We're not asking anybody anything. It's gift giving, it's offering. It's like giving yourself and of ultimately others a blessing.

May I be safe.

Be happy.

Be healthy.

Live with ease.

And whenever you find your attentions wandered, gently begin again. No matter where your mind has gone, no matter how far away it's wandered, doesn't matter.

We can actively practice kindness in that moment.

Gently let go of whatever's distracted you. Gather your energy together. Begin again.

May I be safe.

Be happy.

Be healthy.

Live with ease. You don't have to force some kind of emotion or feeling. The power of the practice is in that complete, wholehearted gathering.

Now think of someone who's helped you. Maybe they helped you today, maybe they've helped you directly. Maybe you've never met them.

But they've inspired you from afar.

The texts say, this is the one. When you Think of them. You smile. It's like an embodiment of loving kindness for you. Could be an adult, could be a child, could be a pet. Is there someone who just has you smile?

So if so, bring them here. You get an image of them, say their name to yourself, get a feeling for their presence.

And offer the phrases of loving kindness to them. May you be safe, be happy, be healthy.

Live with ease.

Even if the words don't seem perfect, they're carrying the heart's energy vehicle that's serving us.

Sa.

And someone you know who's struggling right now, who's having a difficult time, bring them here.

And offer the phrases of loving kindness to them.

May you be safe, be happy, be healthy.

Live with ease.

SA.

And then all beings everywhere, all people, all creatures, all those in existence, near and far, known and unknown, may all beings be safe.

Be happy, be healthy.

Live with ease.

When you feel ready, you can open your eyes or lift your gaze and we'll end the meditation.

So thank you.

Thank you, Sharon. Thank you so much. I really, I'm good to go for the day now for sure.

Yeah. Sharon Salzberg, the author of Loving Kindness and preeminent teacher of that practice and her most recent book, Real Life the Journey from Isolation to Openness and Freedom. So thank you so much for being part of our summit, our self care summit. And I encourage everyone to check out your new book.

Real Life. And is there a basic website where people can go to find out more about your work and teaching?

Yeah, it's Sharon Salzberg.com. it's spell check. We'll try to change the spelling of my name, but it's S A L Z B E R G dot com.

Yeah, I've had that issue myself as Belchick trying to change it to urg or something like that. Yeah. Sharon Salzberg.com. so thank you so much. Be well.

Yeah, thank you. It's great to see you. Hello.

It is Ryan. And we could all use an extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we? Just to make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes, counting your steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino. Chumba Casino has all your favorite social casino style games that you can play for free, anytime, anywhere with daily bonuses. So sign up now at chumbacasino. Com. That's chumbacasino.

Com. No purchase necessary vgw group void where prohibited by law 21 + terms and conditions apply.