Neil Markey | The Citizen Campaign That Made Australia First in Psychedelic Medicine

My name is Dr. Fleet Maull, and I'm your co-host for this session, and I'm really happy to be here today with Neal Markey. Welcome, Neal.

Thanks for having me, Fleet.

Okay. So, Neal, today we're in particular, we're exploring standards, ethics, and best practices, both for treatment and for the training of therapists or psychedelic practitioners of psychedelic-assisted therapy of various kinds. And there's not hard limits on that. We may touch on other areas, but that's kind of the principal focus. So I'm wondering to begin with how your journey from military service and in an elite unit in the military to leading Beckley retreats, you know, how that— tell us a little bit about that journey and also how that then informed your approach to a strong emphasis on ethics in your programs and the delivery of programs and the training of therapists and so forth.

Yeah, I was in the service from roughly 2006 to 2010. 12. I went to Iraq once and Afghanistan twice. And I mean, I was fortunate relative to many. I was an officer and for some of the deployments did more support. And so I was one step removed from the worst of it. When I did my first Ranger deployment, some of the Rangers were on like their 10th or 11th, you know, so these guys had been in it for a while. And now looking back, I mean, the entire unit had PTSD. You just don't realize it at the time because you're surrounded by it, becomes the new normal. But now, with the benefit of hindsight, it was, it was thick. And I got out and went to grad school, and that's kind of where the bottom fell out in some ways. I mean, in— by some measures, I was doing well professionally. I was at a good school and was getting, you know, good job offers, but I was isolating and I was really struggling. I was going through a divorce. And through that, I got— or is that Rumi saying, when you're on your knees, it's a good time to pray? I feel like I kind of had a bit of a rock bottom moment and was looking for a way to feel better and got introduced to meditation. I stumbled into this Mindfulness for Business Leaders course that was being taught by a guy by the name of Om Nguyen, and he ended up kind of taking me under his wing and teaching me meditation. I think he was one of the first people that saw how much I was struggling. And then through that journey, I had the opportunity to have some professionally facilitated psychedelic experiences on underground. There's a long history of veterans getting access to these treatments. And how does that inform the ethics? In a few ways. I mean, one, I tried the material path, you know, I was working in high finance and I mean, maybe it was intellectually stimulating, but it didn't fill me up. And so when I kind of made a decision to do this work, it wasn't about trying to make as much money as possible, was trying to do something that I thought was meaningful. And so I think the why people are doing it makes a big difference, you know, and the incentives makes a big difference. And I think we've done a good job of building a team and finding supporters that are okay with us taking our time. And going slowly and trying to do things in the right way, even if that might not be the best financial decisions in some cases. I think this work, you know, should be done with reverence and care. It's profound, it's really powerful, there's a lot here, but there's, there's also risks, you know. And I think if we want to do this well and really help a lot of people, you you've got to do it with the highest standards that you can.

I wonder if you could— my understanding is Beckley Retreats is connected to the Beckley Foundation, and I just wonder if you could reference the Beckley Foundation's work and its founder for a moment, because I think it's played a very large role in the development of the research in this field.

The Beckley Foundation was founded by a woman by the name of Amanda Fielding, who has been studying psychedelics for her entire life. Over 60 years. And, you know, she had some mystical experiences in her youth and just thought that these experiences could change the world, to be frank. They could help people see differently and behave differently. And so she really dedicated her entire life to studying these compounds. And in 1998, she formed the Beckley Foundation, and really through sheer willpower and charisma, she rallied some of the world's leading scientists to partner with her. And the Beckley Foundation kind of had a dual mandate. One was to do good research and show the benefit for these compounds for different clinical indications and also for non-clinical indications. And then also importantly, they were— Amanda was working to change international drug policy, and she knew you had to do both. You couldn't do good research if the laws were so restrictive that it wouldn't allow it, and you couldn't change the laws if you didn't have good data to lobby for change. So she's been really instrumental in getting us to the place where we can have these really open conversations today, her and a few others, and frankly some of these indigenous communities that never lost the dream. And then her family— she has two sons and, you know, quite a network of supporters over the last 10 years, I would say, started to see that the world was opening up and there was more interest in this work, more acceptance of this work. And they said, you know, the time is now to start building the infrastructure, the things that are needed to kind of get it to more people. But, and I think they really set out to do it with care. And, you know, Amanda came from a nonprofit background. This has never been about making money. Her. This has been about helping people. And so I think that it was really kind of in the kind of founding principles of the broader Beckley ecosystem to try and find a way to do this work that's sustainable. It needs to be sustainable, right? But to do it with heart and care, then not have it just be another, uh, Western investment vehicle.

Well, thank you very much. I'm glad we could reference, uh, the Beckford Foundation founder, because the man at Feeling has really been a pioneer in this field and really played an important role. So my understanding is that your retreats focus on psilocybin as the psychedelic medicine that you primarily work with. And I know you do this in countries where it's legal to offer the retreats, I think both in the Caribbean and in the Netherlands, if I'm not mistaken.

That's right. Jamaica and the Netherlands.

Jamaica and the Netherlands.

Right.

And so for thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of years, psilocybin has been stewarded by indigenous peoples in its natural form with the various psychedelic mushrooms, magic mushrooms. So I just wanted to ask you a question about how in your work you do your best to honor this, what a lot of people today are calling sacred reciprocity, some way of just really respect the role of the indigenous people in stewarding these, to learn from them without co-opting to support their ongoing engagement in the field where we can and just, you know, have a really respectful, honoring relationship. So I wonder how that plays out in your work.

Yeah, we spent quite a lot of time and resource connecting with different Indigenous leaders and asking for their counsel as we thought about putting these programs together that would be for more of a Western audience and took it to heart and did our best to learn from them and adopt some of the ways that we think are really important that are quite different than you might see in a clinical setting, but we believe actually are meaningful. And that some of these wise leaders may have learned something over a few thousands of years of doing this work, and we should pay it pay attention to that. But it was really through kind of continuous dialogue. You know, I wouldn't say that we've gotten it completely right for everyone, but we're, you know, continuing to try and get feedback and, you know, do it in a really thoughtful way that honors the specialness of this work and allows for some of the artistry and some of the mysticism that I actually think is a kind of key component of getting, you know, the most out of these experiences. And what we're doing is challenging. We're bringing something new into the world, you know, or at least a new presentation of it. But I, I really believe in what we're doing, and I think that because of the way we're mixing some Western science with some traditional ways actually opens this work up to a demographic of people that might not go do it in the fully traditional sense. And might not get as much out of it if they did it in a clinic. And so, you know, this middle path model, I think, that we're developing for some people and for some desired outcomes is, is a really good fit.

So I have a couple questions on, but first of all, my understanding is that the Beckley Retreats is offering just that, offering retreats or group retreats. So it's not traditional psychotherapy necessarily, and it's not a one-on-one therapeutic relationship. And so I'm just curious about the difference between what will hopefully be emerging as psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy if any of these drugs are rescheduled, what's currently available in terms of ketamine-assisted psychotherapy practice in the US versus this kind of retreat work and the preparation. I assume you lead retreats. I assume you have more retreat leaders, their preparation, how this differs, to what extent it does differ. So I wonder if you could just talk about that a little bit.

Yeah. And our programs are explicitly non-medical, non-clinical. So we actually screen out severe indications, you know, treatment-resistant depression, complex PTSD. Not that those indications can't benefit from psychedelic-assisted work. I think they can, but it just doesn't fit our model. So our model is more for what we would call the betterment of the well, and it's people that are looking for personal, professional, spiritual development, that want to become more empathetic, that want to become more creative, that want to become more connected, that want to let go of bad habits to build new good habits. All those types of desired outcomes are really good fit. And I would call our program more of like an integrative health program. So what we're trying to do is teach people new ways to think and new ways to be and kind of give them the practices and the information to be able to do that. So we do a preparation that's done digitally. And in that portion, we're giving people access to content, which is meditations, mindful movement exercises, breathwork exercises. And really what we're hoping people will do is that they, they try a few different of these basic well-being practices and they pick a couple that will become, if you will, their new practice, their new morning ritual. And we do that as part of a group. Because if we looked at, you know, when we looked at adult learning and habit change science, we know that in some ways people show up more for others than they do for themselves. So if you can create this kind of group dynamic where everybody's doing it together, you know, our thought is that we can get better compliance and can get more durable, better long-term outcomes by doing it in a group setting. And then we bring people down to the immersive portion, which is in Jamaica, the Netherlands. And we try and get off the grid. We want to give people some space. We think that nature is actually a really important part of this work. And again, super supportive of what's happening in the clinic environment. But if you can give people some opportunity to do a bit of a digital detox and get their bare feet on the ground with other human beings while they're doing this work, we think that's Again, for some people and for some desired outcomes, that's even— that's better, right? So we try and really choose locations that we can do that well. And over the 5-night immersive portion, we're doing all these practices together in community. And then we do 2 psilocybin sessions, and those are done in a group setting more closely to what you would see in a traditional sense if you went and did this in some of these indigenous communities. And again, not right or wrong or good or bad, but we really like doing the work this way. And we think our guests really like doing it this way because you have your own individual experience. But there's a phenomena that's happening amongst the group that is pretty profound to see. You know, we bring in artistry and mindfulness, we play live music, and again, you know, try and really show some reverence for the traditions and how this work is done in different communities. And yeah, really bring the beauty and the intentionality to it. And, you know, it's not so crazy to think that would have some meaningful impact on outcomes potentially, right? We see in medicine the placebo effect. So we like— mindset matters, right? And so if we can have a thoughtful way to bring people into a space and make it special, well, that might help the experience, you know. So we do that, and I think that's what a lot of these communities intuited into or learned over time, that making things special matters. And so yeah, it's a, I think, a really thoughtful curriculum or program for the immersive. And then after the on-site portion, we do 6 weeks of digital follow-up, and that's where we're really trying to lay in the new habits, you know. And from a neuroscience perspective, that we're theorizing, right, we don't understand the mechanics of the brain well, but it looks like these high-dose experiences put the brain, central nervous system, body into this more neuroplastic or malleable state. And that's great, there's this increased potentiality for change, but you got to do something with it, you know. And so this is where we're really encouraging people to check on their team, their teammates, their classmates, and really commit to doing the practices. And it looks like if you do that, you can have some pretty durable long-term change.

And you mentioned these are the sessions that are done during your retreat are relatively high-dose sessions. So What is the dosage generally?

Between 1 to 5 grams of dried mushrooms, which is, you know, roughly equivalent to what you would see in the clinical trials. In clinical trials, you would see maybe 0.25 micrograms, which is roughly 2.5 grams of dried mushrooms. But we test the mushrooms so we know the amount of active psilocybin in it and adjust, and then Each individual gets an amount that is dependent on their discussions with the senior facilitators. So some people go lower, some people go a little higher, but it's in a predefined range.

So it's really interesting in the work that you're doing because with the clinical trials that have been going on with MDMA and psilocybin and some other psychedelic medicines as well, the way they're conducted for research is incredibly expensive and not really scalable. You may have 2 clinicians there, the length of time of long sessions. And so there's been a lot of discussion, ongoing discussion, about some of these medicines are rescheduled for therapeutic use. How are we going to roll this out in a way that's accessible, that's equitable, and so forth, and not just something for the elite who can afford it? And so one of the suggestions has often been some kind of group therapy or practice. So it seems to me you're already involved with this and learning a lot about it, as well as some of the, the online or digital preparation and online digital integration work following that. Those may be necessary parts of being able to make psychedelic-assisted therapy scalable. And it could be that, you know, a therapy group that's about psychedelic-assisted therapy versus one of your retreat groups might have a little bit different context and a little different modality, but there would certainly be a lot of crossovers and a lot of similar, a lot of learning, I think. So I think what you're doing offers a lot, kind of look into the future. So, and I'm also curious about, you know, with the interface between indigenous culture and Western culture, certainly in North America and in many cases in Latin America, there's been an issue of Westerners sort of co-opting indigenous ways or indigenous people feeling invaded or like their ways are being co-opted. And some Indigenous peoples have been quite open and shared it quite broadly, others not wanting to for reasonable, obviously very reasonable reasons. So there can be a little bit of a tension there. And I think there's a lot of attention in the movement now given to how do we do this properly? And I know that in the clinical trials, just trying to bring a little bit of intentionality, a little bit of a ceremonial quality, they'll put the medicine in a dish and try to, even they're in this clinical setting at a hospital somewhere, they'll still try to offer the medicine in a way that feels intentional and purposeful and meaningful. So I'm wondering, how have you learned to do that in your retreats and bring in that kind of traditional ceremonial aspect in ways that you feel you have permission to do and in ways that you don't feel you're kind of co-opting native traditions?

Yeah, well, I mean, we just asked. I mean, we have good relationships with some of the nonprofits that are out there, Shakruna being one of them. And we asked, explicitly, you know, hey, this is the type of work we're hoping to do. Can you help us walk this line that's reverent and honoring without co-opting? And, you know, I think that we're doing a good job in Jamaica. There's some kind of indigenous tradition there. And so, you know, we allow that to come through in our programs. It's mostly predominantly Jamaican facilitators, and they've had ayahuasca and mushrooms for some time there, and they have a little bit of a different way of doing it. And we honor that as long as we can ensure some standards around safety and make sure that the safety is okay. We're okay with allowing some of that indigenous beauty, I would say, to come into the programs. But there are some folks out there that probably don't like what we're doing. We're doing our best to listen and take feedback. But even within some of these communities, there's disagreements and that's not the right way versus that the right way. And so I think that with many things, you've got to do everything you can. And if at the end of the day you tune in and you really feel like you and your team are kind of working in alignment and you've done everything you can and you've really done this with heart, you know, you might not be able to please 100% of the people out there because I don't know anything where you can.

Yeah. You know, it is difficult territory and, but really important. And I think the important thing is you're approaching it with intentionality and openness and really trying to learn and being open and sensitive. And then you, like you said, you do the best you can.

Right. And I think that's what we want to, you know, build a culture of transparency and just we publish the way we do it, who our advisors are, how we've kind of come to these conclusions, and we openly ask for feedback. I mean, we'll listen to anyone because we are trying to do this in a really thoughtful way. So we are doing this, we're doing it in a different context. The world is different now, and we're doing this work with different people that come from different place with a different mindset. And so you would imagine that some things might have to shift to make it safe for them, to make it comfortable for them. You look at the way this indigenous work was done. Well, you weren't bringing foreigners in that had never met these people before. It was done within a community setting. And so there was a way that made sense in that context. Now we're bringing people in that, you know, we've never met before and don't understand mysticism and maybe not— don't have as natural of a connection with the spiritual world or with nature. And so in some ways, I think it's required to make some shifts to meet people where they are so that they feel safe, so that they can embrace the experience and not have the resistance. So the world's changing. I think we also need to be able to change while honoring the past, but also realizing it's a different world today than it was 10, 50, 100 years ago.

So I'd like to talk about some of the protocols you have in place to ensure safety. And you mentioned you do screen your applicants to the retreats, and so you kind of screen out people with some more severe mental health challenges perhaps, and because you're not doing a clinical program. But I'm also curious with your background as being a vet and how these have helped you. And of course there are a lot of vets suffering from PTSD of various levels of severity. And there has been this movement somewhat underground, vets accessing psychedelic medicine. Also, there's been some groups funding vets to go to countries where it is legal or where it's at least offered above board and sometimes in very, in strictly ceremonial settings or sometimes something more like your retreats or other similar retreats in various countries. And, you know, sadly, well, we don't know. I mean, for a lot of us, it seems sad that the FDA didn't reschedule MDMA after the depth of the clinical evidence showing it's helping so many people and in particular vets suffering from PTSD. PTSD. But maybe the science just isn't there yet and they needed to move more science. Maybe that'll be a good thing in the end. But nonetheless, in light of the fact that this is still not available in legal therapeutic settings for vets, I'm just curious about what— like, if vets are coming, applying to your program, what would screen them out? And then, you know, and then starting from there and going with your safety protocols of how you ensure safe experiences for people.

Yeah, we do have a lot of veterans that come down. You know, but not every veteran has kind of complex active PTSD, so they still need to meet our general screening criteria because again, we're doing this work in a group, and so we need to manage for group dynamics. And then, you know, to your point earlier about, you know, we're doing this group approach which we really believe in, but we're not doing one-on-one facilitator to guest ratio. So you just, you need to be thoughtful about the kind of, you know, level of severity of condition of the group as a whole. And so, you know, the veterans still need to kind of meet our standards so that we feel comfortable we're going to be able to hold the group well for everyone. With that said, we've done some veteran-specific programs which are interesting. And so they're for veterans that have TBI, which is traumatic brain injury. They need to be well enough, they need to be stable enough to meet our baseline criteria, but they also to be part of the program need to have experienced a traumatic brain injury. So we kind of screen out the bottom and at the top too. They need to kind of meet, meet on both sides. And yeah, I mean, we're working with the Veterans Mental Health Leadership Coalition and hopefully going to get something on the ballot here in Texas to be able to do our approach, which is a teaching approach, long-form, nature-based group approach but for more severe indications with veterans legally in the United States, hopefully in the next year, 18 months. So I'm really excited about that. We'll have to retool things. We'll need a higher facilitator-to-guest ratio. We'll need to make sure there's more aftercare, things in place like this. But I think that, you know, for some veterans, there's a user benefit or an outcome benefit in doing this work together with other veterans that share a story and what, you know, it's just watching veterans come through this together. It's just like, okay, this is for many is how we should be doing this. And then like you said, from a cost efficiency perspective, which does matter whether we want it to or not, you know, when you think about scale, there's a significant benefit there too. So I kind of, for some indications and desired outcomes, I think this is just going to be a better model, you know. And then on the safety I mean, we think, I mean, you know, me and my lead ops, Dean Morales, was also an Army officer. So, and then we both kind of done, you know, corporate things where we've seen what I would call world-class safety programs, right? And they have a structure to them. You look at the whole life cycle of the experience or the mission or the piece of work that you're doing. And you, you know, you think about the whole chain. So like you said, we do screening, thoughtful about the content and ensuring that, you know, it's trauma-informed and appropriate for people that are kind of coming through our experiences on site. You know, we make sure that our facilitators are properly screened, properly trained, doing this work for the right reasons. We test the mushrooms, we know where they're coming from. Everything that we do is fully above board, so there's no gray area kind of considerations that need to be made. The facilitator-to-guest ratio is really important. We always have a nurse on site. All of our teams are led by a psychotherapist or a doctor, although they're not operating in their medical capacity, but they have that training and understanding. And, you know, that we really value that, and our guests value that. We have all of the reporting structures in place, so if there's challenging outcomes, you know, we're pretty confident that we're getting that feedback. Our teams train on safety. We have safety protocols, you know, so all the things that you would expect in a professionally led business for many other things, you know, we're trying to do at a really high level. And, you know, it's an executive priority. I mean, this is something that my ops lead, Vien, it's one of her kind of key pieces of work, and we track data, and we, you know, work through this as a team and think about improvements we can make. We get feedback from our facilitators, and so it's kind of this iterative learning intent to always make sure we're trying to get better as we go.

You mentioned you also titrate dosage based on your communications with the individual. Is there, along with the mental health screening, is there a physical health screening as well? Are you screening for heart conditions or different things, or Yeah, yes we do.

I mean, it's all self-reported, you know, we're not getting blood work, we're trusting people. We do a call with everyone though, and, you know, I think that gives us an opportunity to feel someone out and see if it's a good fit. But yeah, we're also checking for medical conditions. And, you know, some— these experiences are, I think, relative to many other things we do in our life, quite safe. But there are risks, you know, and there's some cardiac risks, you know. So if people have heart conditions, that's a flag, you know, we need to investigate that more. The psychiatric conditions are certainly flags, you know, we need to ask more questions around that if anybody presents those.

So, and if you have any situations where someone, you know, these psychedelic medicines can really open us up in lots of ways, and, you know, we may, especially from maybe traumas from a long time ago or childhood traumas, we may have sort of managed to compartmentalize ourselves a bit and create internal structures that kind of keep these things at bay and we're able to function. And then psychedelic medicine could really open us up such that it's kind of destabilizing for a while and we're not able to quite put it back together in a way that was working for us before, which ideally is going to lure to a higher level functionality. But there can be a transition that could be pretty rough. So I'm wondering if you run into that and then how you support someone through ongoing integration online, or whether you refer people out to clinical resources and so forth.

Yeah, yeah, that can happen for sure. And I think that, you know, our kind of challenging experiences from a numbers perspective is a couple percent, 2-3% of guests kind of come through and we'll have a period after the experience where they're like, hey, I'm, I'm struggling, this is tough. I think many of them over time get to a lighter place, but like you said, we don't understand the mechanics really well, but I think many experts would say something around that these experiences have some way of bringing those things to the surface. But then there they are. You had them tucked away in a box and that was nice. They were probably seeping up into your life through your subconscious, but they were boxed in and now they're right in front of you. And so that can be destabilizing. And we try and again, from the beginning, we talk to people through the entire program. Let people know that this is a possibility. And some folks know that, yes, I have something pretty significant from my childhood, but some folks have stuff from their, you know, that is in them that they weren't even aware of that could come up, you know. So that's a risk, and we need to be able to tell people that these— there's like the known risks, and then there's the ones that, you know, we can't really identify if this person's going to have it or that person's going to have it, you know. And I think the best we can do is be honest with people and tell people that these exist and then be there as a resource after if folks need some more support. The vast majority of our guests, over 90%, do really well with just the group integration, kind of light touch approach. But if folks are coming through and know that they're going to need some support or then halfway through realize they need it, then we can offer one-on-one remote support. And then, you know, we have a database that's growing of in-person, you know, referrals for folks to be able to kind of go get in-geography care. We always recommend people, if they have existing, you know, medical support, psychiatric support, therapists, coaches, that they should be part of this decision-making process. And you shouldn't just go run off and do this on your own. Like, let's be open about what we're doing and so that everybody can be properly supported.

Yeah, wonderful. And, and so you said, but incidences of whether some sort of significant destabilization following the retreat that somebody's really struggling, it's pretty small. It's in a 2 to 3% range or something like that.

Yeah, yeah, it's small, but I mean, that's a real number, you know. It's not—

it's got to be, yeah, really important that you're dealing with. It sounds like you're addressing it in lots of ways.

Yeah.

And being transparent about the risk with people as they're— as part of the intake and entry consideration process.

That's right.

Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about your facilitator training. How do you train your facilitators and what's involved with that? Or are there prerequisites before they even begin working with you?

Yeah, right now, I mean, we envision having a whole kind of talent management program for facilitators, and we have a sister company called Beckley Academy that is doing this explicitly facilitator training. For us, we only have a few teams because we're only doing a couple different locations right now. We're relatively small. And so we just had a— we're fortunate that many facilitators really like Amanda and I think are really honored to continue her legacy. And it was always part of our approach to try and pay really competitive wages. So I think we had the luxury of being able to select some of the best. That had demonstrated previous experience in leading these group-type sessions and also had relevant skills, whether that's in medicine or psychiatry or something where they were working on their bedside manner, if you will, their connection with other human beings. And so, I mean, we're still trying to figure this out. I think we've learned that just because someone was a great clinician and is able to use the mind and pathologize and solve problems and do that really well doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be a good space holder or group psychedelic facilitator. They can. But I think what we're seeing is sometimes maybe there's even some unlearning that needs to happen in the mind. I think for the facilitators, I mean, a lead facilitator, it's a tough, it's a tough bar. You want someone that has a presence, can lead a team, can get the buy-in and respect and from a diverse group of participants, but also knows how to be present and turn the mind off for a bit and just be nice, peaceful, loving energy. And when the group dynamic becomes a little challenging, maybe doesn't get activated or have their central nervous system. And so that's I-bar. There's a few people that, that fit all of those. And then for our training, yeah, we've had some— Manuela Mischke-Reeds is arguably one of the world's leading trauma therapists, and she's been working with us for quite some time and training our facilitators and teaching them techniques to stay balanced and resonant and how to identify potential challenges and guests that might arise before they arise so that we can have a plan in place and be able to, you know, be ready for things. And so yeah, it's a really— being a good facilitator is a tough— maybe not tough, it's not hard, but it's not easy. It's simple but not easy.

How large are your retreats generally? How many participants?

About 15 guests generally, and we'll have 5 facilitators plus a nurse plus a host. Plus the facility staff generally.

Yeah. So that's a pretty good ratio there. Let's talk a little bit about how psychedelic experiences, like people can access through your retreat, from your own experience, your own path, but also what you're seeing in the people that come to your retreats, how this fits with, integrates into their overall journey of optimizing their physical, mental, emotional health and well-being. If they do have a spiritual context, a sense of spiritual path, how it integrates into that. Do people often come back for repeat retreats? Is this something people are going to be doing on a regular basis, or is this something they can have this experience and then that fuels their kind of journey to optimal health and well-being and so forth?

Yeah, it's so fascinating because in some ways there's some themes, and then I think everyone has really unique experiences. But many people come through. I think part of it, I think, is again, from the neuroplasticity or this increased potentiality for change, it allows people to break bad habits and put in some new ways of being. And I think just that on its own is super meaningful. And for me, you know, sometimes I try and just simplify it. I'm just trying to hopefully get people to adopt a meditation practice. I just know from years prior it's really hard to get people to do it because it's a bit boring at first, and it's hard to articulate the benefits. But after a psychedelic experience, people get it. They kind of intuit why they would want to continue going. And so we have a lot of people that I think go from not meditating regularly to meditating regularly, and then there's tremendous benefit in that. A lot of guests come through and will then report back to us, I just have no urge to drink anymore. No, just no interest in alcohol anymore. Tremendous benefit there. We'll have guests come through and say things like, I just feel like I appreciate my life on a more regular basis. I have moments where I'm in awe of the beauty around me and how fortunate I am. And I, I knew it before, but now it's like coming at me, you know, multiple times a day. And so there's all this kind of quality of life that can seem to be really improved for people after these experiences. And what was the second part of your question?

I asked if people often come back for a repeat.

Oh, right. Yes, some do. Some do. We've had quite a few. We've had some folks come back on their third now. Yeah, I think we have something around a 10— 7 to 10% return rate. And so I think for some it'll be an annual event or every other year or something like that, an opportunity to reconnect, reset. Because even these experiences, it's not like they're magic and then all of a sudden you're this different person forever. I mean, life keeps coming at you, you know, and we change over time. And so you've got to keep coming— you've got to in some ways keep coming back to the practices. And, you know, part of it's always about resetting. Oh, the other thing that I think is really beautiful that a lot of people report is just this sense, this kind of beyond-mind, kind of non-rational mind knowingness of the interconnectedness of everything. You know, and for me, from a physics perspective, I think if you go— or even if you go in chemistry, you go biology, you go deep enough, there is something. There's this ether that seems to be connecting us all. And if you think we're really all in this together and are all part of this same thing, then I think you a lot of times will make decisions differently. You know, you'll treat people a little bit differently. So that's really special too.

How long are the sessions generally in the retreat, the psychedelic medicine sessions?

4 to 6 hours.

And you mentioned the word reset, and I think in many ways these psychedelic experiences can be like a psychological, neurobiological reset of sorts. And again, we don't completely understand the mechanisms of healing and so forth. There does seem to be some association with increased neuroplasticity. But I know in terms of— you mentioned habits and, you know, replacing not-so-healthy habits, putting in place new habits for health and well-being. That addictions have been addressed by psychedelic medicines. I know ibogaine in particular seems to be a powerful reset button for many, even suffering with severe heroin addiction. Yeah, I have a close friend that been a meditation teacher and an addictions counselor in North America his whole career, but then retired, and he's been at an ibogaine clinic in Mexico as a counselor supporting people visiting that clinic. And a lot of people that come there are suffering from severe addiction. And they walk out with at least a window, a window of opportunity for change because the craving is gone, at least for a period of time.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And sometimes that's all we need is this, that the space, you know.

Yeah.

I'm really excited about ibogaine. Now there's risks, you know, of course, but I think, you know, we need to look at relative risks and if we compare it to the risks of a lot of medicines that we get from the existing system, you know, I think there's a real argument that we should be at least researching more of these compounds. And if you listen to the researchers talk about ibogaine, it's so fascinating. From a pharmacological perspective, we've never seen anything like it. It has so many different mechanisms of action. And for opioid use disorder, PTSD, I've seen veterans go in, can't get out of bed, severe alcoholism, life in shambles, come out 5 days later, they look different. And they go home and they hug their kids and they start a completely different life. Now, that doesn't happen for everyone, but for some people it is a radical positive change. It's, you know, really exciting.

Yeah, it should be noted one of the risks with ibogaine is a cardiovascular risk with elevated heart rates and so forth and blood pressure.

But exactly, yeah.

So where do you see this work going, both for the Beckley retreats but for this whole field of both the more clinical psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, whether it's individual or group that may evolve, or just the use of psychedelic medicines in healing retreats like yours or personal evolution, spiritual evolution kind of work. How do you see this? You know, we were kind of— it's kind of interesting this. I grew up in the '60s and I was very active in the whole counterculture era and both with all the synthetic psychedelics. And I lived in Peru for quite a number of years, very involved in plant medicines there back in the early '70s, and then I was away from it for a long time. And then I began really noticing how this whole new movement was emerging, what some are calling a psychedelic renaissance. So it's quite interesting to see the world we're in today. I just wonder where you see the work going, and in particular, your vision for the Beckley retreats.

Yeah, I think that, you know, in a few years down the road, you'll be able to go into a doctor's office, and depending on what your presentation is or indication is, you'll be able to receive some type of psychiatric psychedelic medicine under a doctor's care. And I think that for some people and for some indications, it's going to be significantly better than a lot of the tools we have now. And that's really positive. And I hope that there'll be more well people that maybe don't need to go do it under a doctor's care. Exploring their own spirituality and learning how to take better care of themselves through programs like we're doing. And I hope over time we can figure out a way to, you know, collaborate and work together and, you know, use some of the new technological tools that are coming online to kind of do some of the back office and some of the things that are required to run the business, but do it efficiently so that we can get the costs way down. And I think that if you look at like a Vipassana model where there's a bit of an apprenticeship volunteer model and the costs are like quite low, I think that we'll have something like that for communities where communities are supporting each other. And I hope we can get some old campsites or farmland or something that are near major metropolitan areas but outside of the city so people can get into nature and detox. But maybe we're growing our own organic regenerative food there and folks go from the metropolitan areas and it just becomes a normal thing to go once or twice a year out into nature with some of your friends and reconnect and do some of this work together and come back out clean slate, go back, get back to life a little bit. And that becomes just kind of new normal way of being. That's kind of what I'm hopeful for.

So harkening back to an early part of our conversation, it sounds like what you envision is this becoming more about the way these medicines have been held in some indigenous communities, where it's much more part of their way of life and it's held in a community and community setting, and it's not some extraordinary weird thing that somebody goes off and does somewhere in an isolated setting, but it becomes more part of our life in our communities.

Yeah, I hope so. You know, with these natural plants that have been used for so many years. I understand why we need regulation around drugs, and of course, you know, but in some ways I also think that if adults are given all the right information and understand the risks, that we should be able to use these plants in community as a human right, you know. So I think things are changing. I think it's trending that direction. But yeah, I think that we need to get back to a better relationship with these sacred plants and with each other and with nature. And I think we're hopefully heading in the right direction.

So we're just about to end of our time, Neil. It's been illuminating and incredibly helpful and rich. And coming back to kind of our core theme today, as you're identifying facilitators to bring in your work who are maybe already have a lot of experience, or you bring on people who are going to be in your training programs and develop their experience, If there's kind of a key ethical context that people have, kind of who they really are, where they're coming from, what their motivations are and so forth, what are you looking for?

Selflessness maybe is a big one. So I think that there's a danger to this work where it becomes just another badge of honor, right? I'm more spiritual than you. It's a way to separate. I'm more connected than you. And I think that if folks have that mindset and they're putting themselves on a pedestal, it's just a spiritual pedestal or an enlightened pedestal. I think that's a big problem, and that has a— that can really negatively affect people's experiences. So we call it hollow bamboo. We're looking for people that have done enough work and kind of gotten out of their own way, and it's not about them anymore, it's about helping people. And it's a really— it comes from a place of compassion and ease, and they're not trying to climb a a mountain.

Quality, well, certainly a service orientation, a genuinely compassionate service orientation, and some quality of selflessness. And one of the risks with any practices or substances that provide transpersonal experiences, mystical experiences, there can be a kind of inflation, an ego inflation that can happen. And that could happen to any of us. The question is then, do we find a way to work through it and integrate it and not get caught up in that? But it's there. It's probably better to look for it than to pretend it's not there. These experiences really can lead to a kind of ego inflation, right?

Yeah, they can. I think we're seeing that broadly in the field. So yeah, I guess it's a self-awareness too, and humility, right? I mean, you can get into the I'm humbler than you conversation too, you know what I mean? So it's us trying to, yeah, you know, being honest with yourself. We're humans, we all have light in the dark. You know, we're all capable of great things, we're all capable of terrible things. We need to, you know, be in this state where we're being honest with ourselves and surrounded by people that are giving us honest feedback, right? And we're not in environments where we're only getting feedback that is adding to our, you know, maybe not as good tendencies. But, uh, yeah, we're continuing to learn.

I wonder about— yeah, there's always work to do for all of us, and the power of addressing some of these risks of inflation or kind of getting off track, the peer culture among your facilitators. I once interviewed, I think, Saki Santorelli for one of our Mindfulness Summits, who was kind of Jon Kabat-Zinn's right-hand person. They both developed the MBSR model in the Center for Mindfulness at UMass and now Brown University. But I think this could have been an interview with Jon or with Saki, but they were speaking about For many, many years of that work, and when they're at UMass, the core team at the Center for Mindfulness that was developing MBSR and expanding that into the movement it became, they did regular weekly feedback sessions with each other and were pretty, you know, compassionately ruthless. They spoke their truth. They called each other out when they saw stuff and in compassionate ways. And so I'm wondering about the power of peer culture among your facilitators and so forth and the teams to help because we all need help to keep all— help each other stay on track, right?

Yeah, exactly. And I think it's part of all CROD Zone now and we're continuing to try and reinforce this. We create the space to have those discussions with facilitators. We have ways to give one-on-one feedback and collect consolidated feedback. We also regularly message to our facilitators that We're human beings, and there's going to be sometimes some differences in the way people think things should be done. And as adults, we need to take that person aside and discuss that with them, and that's okay. And there's going to be some conflict. So I think it's from a, you know, an organization perspective, just like messaging what we expect of our leaders, you know, and reinforcing that. Yeah, I think that we're, you know, we're doing a really good job. I mean, we're really fortunate, I think, as, you know, also to have— it's a relatively small team, and facilitators that we have been doing this for a long time. So I think there is a lot of self-awareness there, and this is— comes pretty natural. It'll become more challenging as we, you know, grow and bring more people into the organization, but I think we're doing a pretty good job of it now, inviting that honesty. And I think it's also important in this work too, is like, it really is this risk of the ego inflation. And I think it's just like you— we tell guests the risks of different outcomes. You know, talking with our facilitators about the possibility of thinking that you're the chosen one all of a sudden because you've had this download, and that actually happens to a lot of people, and there can be some truth in that. But you need to also, you know, bring it back to the earth and realize that, you know, every insight that you get might not be the truth, and you need to have some balance, and you need to, you know, stay grounded while you're working with these really powerful experiences.

Sounds like you all are doing a very good and thoughtful job with all this. And the question you just kind of pointed out, and one of the questions that we're always looking at in the summit is, as this field grows, how do we take all this to scale? And it's going to become more and more challenging to preserve the integrity as we go to scale because just the dynamics of time and money, the training might get a little thinner, the standards could get a little thinner. We really don't want that to happen. We can't afford to have that happen really in order to keep this safe and effective for people. So that's an important discussion.

It is. And, you know, we're humans and we need to do everything we can. And it's probably a bit naive to think we're going to be able to prevent this movement from being immune to the natural human tendencies and there being some challenges and bad outcomes along the way. And, you know, we just, we got to do the best we can and keep moving forward.

Yeah, absolutely. Not to excuse any mistakes, but Obviously, we can't do it perfectly. And even one of the objections brought up in the— by the FDA Advisory Committee had to do with some inappropriate behaviors. But this go— this goes on in psychotherapy all the time. That's a well-established field, and there are mistakes. And of course, regulatory bodies to deal with that, and hopefully it gets dealt with.

But, you know, yeah, it happens in medicine, talking about human beings, right? It happens in law, it happens in the military, it happens in the police departments. And again, like you said, like, not to minimize it, we need to take it seriously, but you know, we also need to, you know, do it with an open mind and realizing that, you know, that we're humans.

Well, thank you very much, Neil.

Thank you, Fleet. It's so good to see you. Absolutely. It was a real pleasure. Really nice to spend some time together.

Yeah. Thank you and be well.

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