Ocean Robbins | Reclaiming Health One Bite at a Time

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What if the way you think about food could transform your entire life? In this conversation with my friend Ocean Robbins, we explore a powerful shift, seeing food not just as comfort or entertainment, but as medicine for your body and nourishment for your soul. Ocean shares how this change in perspective can reverse chronic disease, boost your energy and create a deeper sense of vitality. We talk about moving beyond short term pleasure, reframing food as an act of self love and creating a new normal rooted in mindful choices, supportive community and daily reflection. If you're ready to break free from old habits and experience the lasting joy of true well being, this episode will give you the tools and inspiration to start your journey today. Let's dive in. My name is Fleab Mahl, your co host for this session and the founder of Heart Mind Institute and I'm very happy today to welcome Motion Robbins.

Welcome. I'm so glad to be with you Fleet.

I've been doing this work for quite a while and have inspired many people to rethink their relationship to food and examine their beliefs about diet and food and health. And I'm wondering if you could share if there was a significant turning point in your life that changed your beliefs. I know you grew up in your household with your parents who were kind of committed to this kind of lifestyle. I don't know if you rebelled at some point, ran out to get a big max. I'm just wondering if there have been any kind of turning points that really change your belief systems around all this.

Yeah. And for those who don't know, a little background. My grandpa founded an ice cream company that was fairly successful. It was Baskin Robbins. And my dad John grew up with an ice cream cone shaped swimming pool in the backyard and 31 flavors of ice cream in the freezer. And he was groomed to one day join in running family business, but ended up walking away from it. His uncle, Bert Baskin, was dying of heart disease and ended up passing at the age of 54. And my dad said, my gosh, an ice cream cone's not going to kill anybody. But I don't want to spend my life selling a product that might contribute to more people like my uncle dying prematurely. So he walked away from the family company and any access to the family wealth and ended up moving with my mom to a little island off the coast of Canada, British Columbia, where they built a one room log cabin and grew most of their own food and practiced yoga and meditation for several hours a day and named their kid Ocean. And of course, they almost named me Kale, you may have heard. But you know, we did eat a lot of kale and other cabbage and veggies from the garden. And as I got a bit older, my family ended up moving to California. And that's when my dad wrote the book that became a runaway bestseller, Diet for a New America. And it inspired millions of people to look at their food choices as a chance to make a difference on the planet and for their own health. And one of his readers ended up being my grandpa Irv. So I was about 15 years old at the time when my grandpa Irv was suffering from serious diabetes, weight issues and heart issues. And his doctors told him he was probably going to join his brother in law and business partner, Burt Baskin pretty soon if he didn't make big changes, my grandpa did. He read the book that the doctors gave him, Diet for a New America, my dad's book, and ended up, you know, changing his diet radically. He gave up sugar, he gave up most processed Foods. He started eating a lot more whole plant foods. He cut way down on his meat consumption. He even gave up ice cream. And Grandpa Irv got results. He reversed his diabetes, reversed his heart disease, lost a bunch of weight. You know, his favorite part was that his golf game improved seven strokes. My favorite part was that he lived 19 more healthy years. And for the first time in his life, I thought he seemed happy. And so, you know, I feel like a lot of people don't get a second chance in life, like my dad's Uncle Bert, who I never even knew. He was gone before I was born. But some people do, like my grandpa. And the reality is, the experience of those two ice cream gurus, if you will, and their different stories stood out to me so powerfully. And witnessing my grandpa's transformation in his own personal life was quite profound for me. You know, if anybody had an investment in thinking there's no connection between diet and health, it was my grandpa Irv. He'd manufactured and sold more ice cream than anyone who's ever lived. But he had the courage to make a change because he wanted to survive. And we saw what happened, and it wasn't just him. Our family opened up a P.O. box when my dad's book, Diet for New America, came out so people could write if they were moved by the message of the book. In the ensuing 10 years, we received about 30,000 letters from readers. Handwritten, typed, physical, real letters, not emails thanking him for changing their life. Person after person saying how their life was saved. Loved ones have been saved. They had their health back. They had their life back. They had their hope back. They had their dreams back. They had their family back. And so, to me, just watching this sort of avalanche of goodwill and gratitude pouring in, seeing my grandpa's story, it really kind of lit a fire in me as a youngster to say, what could I do to be a part of spreading this message and being this change in my own personal journey? As you, I think, you know, I started a nonprofit called YES. And worked with young leaders in 65 countries around the globe, focusing on youth leadership and youth empowerment. For a couple decades, I was doing that work. And over time, I decided I've really got to focus on food directly, because I saw the impact of our food choices all around the globe. And I realized this is like this critical linchpin that could make a world of difference. I'm always asking, how can I help? How can we build a healthier, happier, more beautiful, more loving, more equitable world where freedom and dreams prevail where sustainability is a fact of life and where our kids have hope. And when I look at food, I think this is a spot where I can make a real difference. So starting in 2012, I joined with my dad in launching Food Revolution Network and we've grown to over a million members now. And this is my passion.

Yeah, it's an amazing journey you all have been on and such huge impact. It's really incredible. So your book 31 Day Food Revolution emphasizes transforming our diet as really a pathway to well being and really physically, spiritually on many levels. And what are some of the common beliefs that you hear, you've run into or you see that people have that kind of can lead to poor health outcomes or get in the way of them shifting their relationship to food? And you know, I grew up in the 50s and I got a lot of beliefs that made no sense ingrained into my brain before I to say about it?

Yeah, absolutely. So belief number one is if it's normal, it must be okay. We live in a toxic food culture and all around us, junk food is normalized, it's subsidized, it's advertised, it's mainstreamized. And so in that context, it can be very difficult to cut against the grain and do something different. What we grew up with, what we are surrounded by, is so ubiquitous. You know, why do people eat dogs in the Philippines, but would never think of it in the United States in most cases, right? Because of cultural norms. Why do people eat pigs in the United States when there are places in the world where that would be completely at point? Or cows, which are sacred in India? It's cultural norms. Right. So we have adopted norms that unfortunately in many cases are killing us. And the numbers are enormous. Fleet, you know, in the United States, we spend about $4.8 trillion a year on healthcare, which is really disease symptom management. It's 19% of our entire gross domestic product. 90% of that is on treating the symptoms of chronic disease. I'm talking $3.8 trillion a year in the United States on chronic diseases. Most of those. The biggest ones are heart disease, Alzheimer's disease, cancer and diabetes, all of which can be dramatically reduced with healthier diet and lifestyle by like 80 to 90% in many cases. So what we're talking about here is the potential that a shift in dietary patterns could save millions of lives, trillions of dollars in just one country alone, and also help to save our planet. Because, you know, animal agriculture, especially industrialized animal agriculture, has become one of the most, if not the most environmentally destructive forces on planet Earth. So this is normal, but it doesn't have to be, and it doesn't have to be our fates. And when we make changes, we can experience extreme, radical, profound benefits and be a part of the solution. Helping to save economies, helping to save lives, and helping to save the planet. Second belief I would say that we face a lot is that unhealthy food is pleasurable. This is complicated because of course it is pleasurable in the same way that cocaine or heroin are probably pleasurable. I wouldn't know myself, but I'm sure they are. However, in the long run, what's the cost, right? What's the real cost? And I would assert that there is more pleasure in vitality, in energy, in a healthy sex life and being able to do what you love and be able to have the energy to make it through the day and having a clear mind than there is in a bit of taste bud experience that leaves you feeling sick and lethargic and drained. You know, there's not a lot of pleasure in cancer or chemotherapy. There's not a lot of pleasure in forgetting the names of your loved ones because you've got dementia, or fearing an uncertain future, or straddling the people you love most with debt because of your medical costs, or them having to care for you in your old age. But these are norms that we are creating when we follow the standard American diet. And you know, research is clear, we could add 8, 10, 15 healthy years of life just by changing what we eat. Even after the age of 60, researchers tell us we can add eight more healthy years of life just by changing diet and lifestyle. So to me, these are profound and I like to think of it that food is not just supposed to be temporary pleasure, it's supposed to be medicine and nourishment for our bodies and our souls. And when you learn to treat your body well, you can actually make eating an act of self love, an act of integrity. And in the long run, that leads to far more pleasure and far more satisfaction than a moment of fleeting enjoyment.

Wow, I'm glad you really went there with, you know, these are really deep seated beliefs that for those of us who have been deeply conditioned into these beliefs, which is most people can be really challenging to change. You know, I mean, I remember many times when I would find myself, you know, traveling somewhere, being around urban areas and see all these what look like very yummy, attractive places. Yeah, I'm not talking about so much the fast food, but maybe a little higher end, but still chain Restaurants, but you know, stuff that. And I just think, oh, that's all that great stuff I can't have anymore. And I really had to pay myself to see. No, those very attractive, all that marketing signs are just advertising poison. Those are just poison places.

Right.

Condition to believe is so wonderful and so good and you're having to deprive yourself right of that. And I remember another time there was a kind of a fast food place, but where I grew up in St. Louis, it's a semi regional or national chain, but kind of a little bit higher end. I have a hamburger and chili place kind of place. And anyway, you know, childhood memories. Oh, you know, I remember pulling off, I was on the way to a consulting gig. This probably 15 years ago, pulling off the highway in Arizona. Oh, that'd be so great. I'll go get a burger and a shake and fries, you know. And so I did it, you know, all full of all expectation and within 15 minutes after eating it, I felt sick.

Yeah.

Because my body had learned not to. You know, it's like sort of like smoking cigarettes. When you eat that all the time you are getting sick, but you learn to tolerate it or you numb it out or you don't expect. But if you eat healthy for a while and then you go eat something like that, you immediately feel it quite acutely of how sick it makes you feel.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And it can be hard to change these beliefs and also for a big one for me is not regarding food as reward or entertainment or pleasure, but really to try to shift and say no, this is fuel for my body. I need good fuel for my body. I need to get, you know, my needs met for entertainment rewards met in other ways. Right?

Absolutely.

Yeah. Learning to love foods that love you back is so critical. And you know, there are lots of ways to have entertainment and pleasure. And quite frankly, the menu gets a whole lot bigger when you stop making food the center of your life. When you eat to live instead of living to eat, what happens is you find pleasure in all kinds of other things. You know, I get a lot more pleasure from going for a run on the beach and jumping in the ocean, which I can do because I've got the help to do it than I would sitting on the couch eating a bag of chips and yet. And that leaves me feeling good all night instead of crappy and with some a bit of self loathing, you know. So learning to create habits that nourish self love through nourishing food like is a sacred act, I think. And it reaps profound benefits. And you know, if we're eating junk food, what is that? What are we telling ourselves? At some level we're saying, I don't trust, I don't respect you, I don't. I don't care about you. So learning to practice the art of self love through nourishment is profound and life changing and it sends out ripples to every domain of your life.

Yeah, absolutely. That age old idea of regarding our body as a temple and being very intentional about what we put in it. And fortunately, I've had these days a lot of positive experiences around healthy food and learn to really enjoy kale, among other things. My wife and I have a backyard garden and we grow a lot of kale back there. But there's nothing more pleasurable for me. When my wife and I sit down to dinner and we have a wonderful salad and it's fresh out of the garden. We just literally went out and picked it, put it in a salad bowl, made the salad. I mean, it's just so. It's just such a pleasurable experience on so many levels.

It really is. Especially if you have a good dressing. I'm into pleasure through enjoyable healthy foods, but I like a good salad dressing, for example. That makes all the difference with vegetables or with salads. You know, for me though, you can make. When your taste buds evolve. You could find a salad undressed just with some, you know, some, maybe some ground up, some pumpkin seeds or some crunchy things in the mix. Get a little beans in there, you learn that it doesn't take the sort of overwhelming sugars and salts and fats that a lot of us think are normal because your taste buds become more nuanced. They become capable of appreciating things that are more subtle over time. I have a friend who doesn't eat salt, hardly ever. And he doesn't miss it. And when he has sort of what I consider a normal amount of salt, it tastes terrible to him because his taste buds have just evolved in that way. And they do. Taste buds change. In fact, in the matter of as little as a week or two, they can change, sometimes significantly. And there's research on this. The first time someone eats kale, it usually tastes bitter to them. And by the fifth or tenth time, their body is starting to secrete enzymes that make it taste sweeter.

So it certainly does for me. I enjoy kale a lot. I can even eat it right out of the garden raw, take a leaf and eat it, enjoy it. So that's changed over time and we can look at changing our beliefs psychologically and recognizing limiting core beliefs we have and you know, just bringing awareness to that and seeing they don't serve us and trying to replace them with more life affirming beliefs. And so there's psychological ways we can work with this. And then there's the kind of neurobiological perspective of rewiring the brain. And the two are not separate, they reinforce each other. So from the neurobiological perspective, part of our ability to change our beliefs and literally rewire our brains has to do with neuroplasticity. And there are diet choices that support having greater neuroplasticity, I believe, and thus make it easier for us to change our beliefs. I wonder if you could talk about.

That a little bit. Absolutely, I would love to. So, you know, neuroplasticity is critical for learning, for memory, even the potential to rewire beliefs and behaviors. I'll say personally that I sometimes experience a state of peak presence in my mind where I know I'm capable of learning something new. And when I'm in that state, I'm also capable of creating a new habit, a new pattern that will last. And that state is, I think, quite profound and quite potent. And there are ways to encourage and nurture that. A whole foods, plant based diet in particular is rich in nutrients that support neuroplasticity and overall brain health. And a few of the key nutrients to look at. Well, omega 3 fatty acids are huge. They're found in flax seeds and chia seeds and walnuts. They're also in fish and in vegan algae based DHA and EPA supplements. And Omega 3s play a critical role in maintaining structure and function of brain cells. They're essential for cognitive function and they've been shown to enhance neuroplasticity. You also want antioxidants in your diet. Antioxidant rich foods include berries, leafy greens, all the colorful vegetables. These protect your brain from oxidative stress and from inflammation, both of which can impair neuroplasticity. And blueberries in particular are sometimes called brain berries because they have huge levels of flavonoids, which are linked to improved brain function and the growth of new neurons in the brain. You also want a good amount of magnesium. It supports brain health by enhancing synaptic plasticity, which is the ability of synapses to strengthen or weaken over time. And it's a fundamental mechanism underlying learning and memory. And some of the top plant based sources of magnesium are nuts and seeds and legumes. You also need to get vitamin B12, which is critical for the production of neurotransmitters. And B12 is typically found in animal products. So plant based eaters should definitely obtain it through fortified foods or supplements. However, there is research that even about 20% of omnivores might be deficient in B12. Especially as we age, we sometimes don't metabolize it efficiently. So taking a supplement is probably, probably advisable for just about everyone. So these are some of the key nutrient dense foods that can help to keep your brain functioning in tip top shape. And you know, when we nurture our brains with the right nutrients, we empower ourselves to think more clearly and learn more effectively and keep evolving and growing. The other thing I want to add though is that you want good circulation to your brain. Your brain is the most vascular organ in your body. It consumes over 20% of your entire body's oxygen supply. So having good circulation is critical. And this is where cardiovascular health and brain health are kind of inseparable. So all the things that are good for your heart and your cardiovascular health are good for your brain. And that again comes back to. We see so much research showing us that a whole foods plant based diet is really kind of the king when it comes to cardiovascular health. You want to low saturated fats, including coconut oil and palm oil by the way, as well as other animal products. You want low on processed meats and you want high in fiber. There's no fiber in any animal products. There is fiber in all whole plant foods and you definitely want to avoid the sugar and the processed junk foods.

Yeah. I have a close friend who's suffering from both type 2 diabetes and now from early onset dementia. You know, we know today that many of our or most of our chronic illnesses that have our healthcare system in breakdown, you've mentioned many of them already, start with system wide inflammation of various kinds, systemic inflammation in the body. Now this have to do with trauma and stress, but it can also have to do with diet. And maybe you know, and we can't avoid stress being human beings. And many of us have had trauma that we couldn't avoid in our childhoods or what have you. But diet is still one way to address these issues of systemic inflammation, I believe. I wonder if you could talk about that. But for example, heart disease, the plaque formation that leads to most cardiovascular challenges begins like decades earlier with systemic inflammation and breakdown in the interior walls of our vascular system. So I wonder if you could talk about the relationship between diet and healing or avoiding systemic inflammation. In the body?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, inflammation is, you know, arguably behind most of the major chronic ailments of our times. And you know, the way you bring it down is by not doing the things that are pro inflammatory and doing the things that are anti inflammatory. So what's pro inflammatory? Well, essentially, highly processed foods are the most pro inflammatory foods in our dietary pathways. So sugars, white flour, and fried foods in particular all tend to be very pro inflammatory. In the human body, processed meats are very pro inflammatory and in general, animal protein appears to be pro inflammatory, as in many cases, maybe saturated fat. So what is anti inflammatory? Oh, and omega 6 fatty acids, by the way, are also pro inflammatory, especially when consumed in excess. So that's corn oil, soybean oil, cottonseed oil, really all the major processed vegetable oils that are popular today. What's lower in omega 6s in the oil world is going to be avocado oil and olive oil. And flax oil is actually particularly great in this regard. So those are the kind of direction you want to move in if you're going to consume bottled oils at all. But getting away from the other bottled oils, you want a healthy ratio of omega 6 to omega 3. Most people are getting 16 to 1 of 6 to 3, maybe even 20 to 1. You want somewhere between 1 to 1 and 4 to 1, 6 to 3. So that means less omega 6s and more omega 3s to bring down chronic inflammation. And then you want lots of fiber and antioxidants, because antioxidants help your body to deal with all the oxidative stress that it faces, which brings down inflammation in the body. And fiber is critical to your microbiome. It's absolutely essential to your microbial health and your digestive tract. It's basically what the bacteria eat down there to keep your body functioning. And those bacteria in turn are critical to enhancing the production of neurotransmitters like serotonin that plays a key role in, in regulating your mood. You also want plenty of folate, which is present in leafy greens and legumes and seeds. It's been linked to reduced risk of depression and is also involved in the production of dopamine and serotonin. So these are all some of the keys that can help to bring down inflammation and also contribute to a better mood. Essentially, in essence, it's eating more whole plant foods, lots of fruits and vegetables, whole grains, legumes, nuts and seeds, healthy fats, especially with omega 3s and that come from nuts and seeds and whole foods, and reducing your consumption of highly processed junk foods, Most of all animal products in general.

Well, in referencing the healthy function of our gut or our biome, you were pointing already to the relationship between our diet and mental health. You know, one could easily say not only do we have an epidemic of obesity in this country and an epidemic of various addictions, but we also have a mental health crisis, Depression, anxiety, suicidality, and so forth. And I gotta think a lot of this is probably culturally diet related in terms of what's reinforced in our culture. I wonder if you could talk even maybe a little more about the relationship between diet and mental health.

Absolutely. Well, so first of all, there's this thing called the gut brain axis that a lot of people are talking about now. You know, the gut microbiome consists of trillions of bacteria and other microorganisms, and it communicates with the brain through the nervous system, through hormones, and through immune pathways. And a healthy gut microbiome can produce neurotransmitters like, like serotonin and dopamine that are crucial for mood regulation and for cognitive function. And so some of the best ways that you can harness this connection for better mental health and more resilience are like I've already mentioned adopting a fiber rich diet. You want a diet that's high in fiber from fruits and vegetables and whole grains and legumes to promote a healthy gut microbiome, because it acts as a prebiotic fiber does, and it feeds the beneficial gut bacteria and helps them to grow. You also want to consume some probiotic rich foods. These are foods that contain probiotics like yogurt and sauerkraut and kimchi and other fermented foods that can help to maintain a balanced gut microbiome. And essentially, this is the combination that's so powerful. You want to feed the good guys and you want to cultivate more good guys, so to speak. And so probiotics can do both. In many cases, when you're eating a food like sauerkraut or kimchi, you're getting fiber and you're getting beneficial bacteria all in one, which is pretty fabulous. You also want to, as I mentioned, reduce your processed food intake, especially things that are high in sugar and unhealthy fats, because that can really disrupt your gut microbiome and promote the growth of harmful bacteria that can negatively affect your mental health. You want to stay hydrated. Drinking plenty of water is critical, especially for your gut health, and it helps maintain the mucosal lining of your intestines, which also supports the balance of beneficial bacteria if you want, you can drink green tea or even coffee, which have been linked to positive mental health and brain health benefits. Or if you don't like the caffeine, go with decaf or drink herbal teas. Hibiscus tea is particularly potent in antioxidants as well as being very hydrating, so those are some options. Stay away from sugary beverages, however, because as we've mentioned, sugar is no friend to your microbiome and of course, we hear it all the time. But manage stress, because we know that chronic stress can negatively impact the gut, microbiome and mental health. So practices as you well know, like mindfulness and meditation, as well as yoga and physical activity can all help manage stress levels. Support a healthy gut and a healthy brain. And you can manage stress, of course, from the inside out with how you respond so you're more resilient and more resourceful. Or from the outside in, by looking at what are the dynamics that are creating chronic stress in your life. And if you're working in a job you hate, maybe it's time to think about a different career path. You know, what's the real cost of doing something that sucks the life out of you? And is there another alternative? A way to support your family or yourself that's aligned with your values more, or a way to restructure, you know, reduce that big commute by moving closer to work? Whatever it is, think about the places that are chronically stressful in your life and see if you can shift them right. And then, of course, sleep. We hear about it all the time and sometimes it just makes us feel more guilty. But the reality is that getting seven to nine hours of restorative sleep every night is critical for mental health, for gut health, for your whole microbiome brings down inflammation and it's good for your mood. Of course, some people get too much sleep when they're really depressed. That's a whole other dynamic. But there is a sweet spot for sleep and you want to be in there, want to have something to get up for in the morning. And there's all kinds of things that help with sleep. Like, you know, and probably some of some folks get tired of hearing this list, but just to say a few things, like not doing blue light after 6:00pm, you know, not eating late at night, not going to bed on a full stomach, going bed to bed on a slightly empty stomach, having a dark room, having a safe place to be. You know, if you can possibly create that for yourself. You know, parents like I, sometimes like I sleep in, in a Space a little away from my kids so that I'm not going to get woken by them. They're up late and I just want to know that I'm not going to get woken because my nervous system does better when I have that peace. Right. Just examples. Right. Depending on the age of kids, of course that's going to vary. But prioritizing sleep and then in the morning getting some circadian rhythm boost by getting natural light, ideally getting out in the sunshine in the morning first thing, can really help your body to know when it's day and night and having a regular routine and a regular bedtime. Just examples. These are all practical steps you can take that are scientifically showing to nurture gut health, mental health and resilience in the human body.

So you're kind of pointing to an overall set of beliefs and values and really lifestyle. I want to talk more about that in a minute. But just going back, you were mentioning some of the different oils and so forth. We hear a lot about mcts today and certain oils, coconut has MCT and so forth. I wonder if you could talk about the role of mcts in a healthy diet and.

Yeah, well, there is some research showing that medium chain triglycerides or MCTs could have some benefit for brain health. It's complicated though, because they're still saturated fats and they're highly processed and coconut oil, it's itself is the most highly saturated fat out there, more than beef, you know. So. And we have a lot of research telling us that saturated fat particularly can be bad for cardiovascular health. It's linked to more arterial inflammation and clogging over time and it leads almost consistently and statistically to higher LDL cholesterol levels and cholesterol levels overall. So there's concern there. And we don't have enough research on MCT oil specifically, which is extracted from coconut oil generally to know whether it's going to have the same concerns or not. So, you know, if you want to be part of the mass experiment and put a tablespoon of MCT oil in your coffee, feel free, see how it goes. If your cholesterol levels aren't a problem, maybe it's good for you. It might be. We don't have overwhelming evidence one way or the other. There is some research showing it might be beneficial, there's some research showing it might not be. I would say for anybody who has cardiovascular disease concerns, concerns, which is a lot of us go real light on the saturated fat, you know, and so be careful with that. I know folks who were vegan and were still having high LDL cholesterol and even high blood pressure. And then they cut out coconut oil from their diets and boom, it came right down. So at the same time, it may have benefit. Right. And maybe one of those trade offs. And as researchers love to say, more research is needed.

Well, thank you for that balanced perspective. That's really helpful. But back to the lifestyle issue. One of our presenters, Dr. Kim Vu from California, talks about he practices what he calls lifestyle medicine and has really been able to help people greatly reduce the impact of, or cure altogether chronic illnesses through just basic changes in lifestyle. And so you begin kind of talking about. And it's interesting how these things line up. I'm not saying that all meditators are vegans or vegetarians necessarily, but you do find a connectedness between people that value meditation, that value outdoor exercise, that value healthy eating. These, all these things kind of sync up in a certain way and become kind of a lifestyle, a cultural mindset, a set of values. And I wonder if you could talk about because, you know, it seems like identity is so powerful and change. Like I remember early in my life when I was trying to quit smoking and you know, I was a smoker who loved to smoke, loved that cigarette after a meal, but I was trying to quit because I knew it wasn't good for me. Right. And it didn't really shift until I finally identified as a non smoker and really became clear, I'm a non smoker, I couldn't care, I have no interest. It's kind of a disgusting habit. And that identity shift is what really solidified the change. So it seems like one could eventually have an identity change and one almost has to leave because like you said, the belief in what's normal. Right. So you have a huge amount of cultural reinforcement out there in the country we live in and other western countries that it's completely normal to have this unhealthy lifestyle and eat toxic foods. And that's what normal people do. So you almost have to be willing to change your culture, join a different culture to get all the support you need. So all these lifestyle things hook up and you start living a healthier lifestyle. I wonder if you could just talk about that a bit in your experience.

Absolutely. You know, I think it comes back to if I was to distill it, for me at least it's the difference between food is entertainment and food is medicine, or food is entertainment and food is love. Like real love, not the cheap love that comes from a temporary kick. But the deeper love that comes from nourishment and self care and saying, I'm willing to invest in my own wellbeing. And when you make that pivot, then so much flows from that. And I think, you know, meditation, mindfulness, so many of these things help us to become more aware and more present in the living moment. And when we're deeply present in relationship to food, we tend to be less drawn to temporary sensation and distraction and entertainment, and more drawn to nourishment, to genuine well being, because we can actually feel the effects in our bodies and psyches and beings. So to me, this is part of the pivot. And you know, if you want to change a habit, the best time to repair a roof is when the sun is shining, not when it's pouring rain. And so if you want to change a habit around food, the best time to do it isn't when you're late at night, exhausted after a long day at work, and you're having a craving for Doritos. It's when you've got some space and time, maybe on the weekend. Make friends with healthy recipes. Shop from a list and get your kitchen stocked with healthy food. Get rid of all the junk food so you're not tempted. Come up with strategies for those late nights or whatever your moments of weakness are so you have a clear pathway laid out for yourself so you know what to do so you don't have to use willpower to fight against habit or against compulsion or addiction. Instead, you want bright lines. You want to know what your boundaries are. You want to know what your yeses and nos are. You want to create accountability loops so that you have friends you can count on. A lot of us are addicted to unhealthy foods. And so if you are, you may not really be fully the author of your own food life. This is not cause for shame or guilt. This is cause for getting help. Like with any addiction, you need to practice bright lines. Because an alcoholic can't have just one drink. A food addict can't have just one Dorito or just one cookie, right? You will finish the bag, most likely if this is your pattern. So you gotta not have the bag in the house, right? You've got to create some boundaries. You got to create accountability loops and know how you're going to get back on the horse if you fall off, get back on the wagon if you fall off. And then you also want to really find positive alternatives. When I was first learning to ride a bike, I was heading towards a pothole. And I'm Looking at the pothole, thinking, don't hit the pothole, don't hit the pothole. And guess where I went? Straight into the pothole and I spilled on the concrete. And so the next time I was riding on that road, I looked at the other side of the road and I rode there. You know, we tend to go where we put our attention, right? And so put your attention on what you're going towards, not what you're going against. Have enough awareness of what you don't want in order to create different choices. But put most of your energy, 90% of your attention should be on the foods you're choosing to eat, not on the foods you're choosing not to eat. That will help set you up for success with diet. You know other strategies that can help with lasting change. One is daily reflection. So take a few moments every day reflecting on your food choices and how they make you feel. Maybe even write a journal capturing your experience. Today I ate this. Here's how it felt in my belly. Here's how it felt in my mind. And this awareness practice can create positive feedback loops. Setting small achievable goals can help. So you may want to add one new vegetable each week to your meals. Shop from a different spot, you know, go to a farmer's market. Celebrate specific bite size, measurable chunks, things you say, okay, I'm gonna do this this week and then tell somebody. And then. Cause you're 60% more likely to do something if you tell someone else you're gonna do it than if you don't. And then get a feedback loop. Keep learning. Stay informed about nutrition and health. Read books, attend workshops, webinars, follow reputable organizations, get on email lists like foodrevolution.org so you can keep the learning cycle going. And keep getting reinforced because knowledge will keep empowering you and remembering why you're doing this. And get supportive community, you know, join a group or community or network that shares your goals. It helps to normalize positive behavior. Feedback loops. Whether it's a local cooking class or a fitness group or an online forum, support can make a real difference.

Well, I'm glad you pointed to community. And that's one of the wonderful things about the movement you've created really with Food Revolution Network, because we need that positive reinforcement. And I'm also happy you really named, you know, the addiction that's there with toxic foods and unhealthy foods. And there's a lot more coming out today about how people are really suffering from addiction to ultra processed foods. And it's actually named addiction now. And it's like any other addiction. And sadly, we begin to start looking at some of the unhealthy food manufacturers and distributors. You might start looking at them in the same light as your local drug dealer. You know, is a sad state of affairs. There's still, you know, it's highly legal and highly culturally reinforced, unfortunately. But so we may need help. The point is, we need. We're social beings. We may need support. We need help if we know we're really suffering from addiction and we have, you know, hidden. We're hiding away food or we're hiding away our food habits. We have a secret life around food. We probably need to reach out and get directly involved with clinical help or a 12 step group or that kind of help. But all of us need support. There's a lot of evidence that shows people who live with or socialize with other overweight people are highly likely to become overweight themselves. So I think it is really important, this part of community that you're bringing up, that we need to seek healthy community that we can connect with and be supported by.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we're very social creatures. So, you know, there was research done where, you know, two people were put into a room and one of them was in on the study and the other one wasn't. So. So the one who was in on the studies, his task was to what? There were cookies in the room. They went in together. He was supposed to eat some out of the cookie jar. And the other guy did. Then he went in with another person, didn't eat the cookies out of the cookie jar and the other person didn't. And what's interesting is that then that person who went in each case went into another room without their companion and they proceeded to repeat the same behavior. Cookies in the cookie jar. The one who had been eating them, ate them again. The one who hadn't, didn't. You know, small study, but the principle I think is pretty clear. We tend to do what's normalized around us and not do what isn't normalized around us, and then to repeat those patterns as we go forward in our lives. This can cut both ways, though, Fleet. And I think that's what's really empowering, actually, when you or I choose to model healthy behaviors, we're actually supporting everyone else around us by normalizing a new culture. And so humans are very social creatures. And what I want to invite everybody watching to consider is that your food choices are not for you alone. You're actually shifting Culture you're modeling for your friends, for your family, for your community, for those close to you. What's possible when you care for yourself and you're helping to normalize that and inspire that and making it easier for them. They may not all follow along, but some of them will in big ways and in subtle ways now or at some point in the future. And you're also helping shift the food system. Because when we stop giving our money to corporations whose practices we don't believe in, when we start investing in local farms and farmers and companies that use whole foods and that aren't in the junk food business, then we're actually shifting economy. You know, just as surely as if you're a drug user, you are creating a world of drug dealers. You know, well, if you are a whole foods consumer, you are creating a world with more whole foods, which means you're helping our society to shift away from processed junk food and away perhaps from industrialized animal products and towards more sustainable, regenerative, healthy economy, culture and food systems. And to me, that's powerful. And that's why we started Food Revolution Network, because we want to shift culture, we want to help individual eaters do better, but we also want to change the landscape and the society. And I think when you identify as an everyday revolutionary, when you look at your food choices as a chance to take a stand for integrity, your life has a sense of greater meaning and purpose and even hope. You know, we live in a world where there's some pretty big and overwhelming problems on this planet. Our politics, our climate crisis. Every day on this planet, it seems we have more guns and bombs, we have less ancient forests, we have less topsoil, we have less biodiversity, we have more carbon in the atmosphere. It's easy to feel sad, even terrified for our future. But when it comes to food, every day we can make a difference. We can reduce our ecological footprint. We can contribute to a more healthy and a more beautiful future for ourselves. Yes, but also for humanity. And to me, that feels really good. It doesn't solve all the problems of our world, but it's nice to do something that helps.

So it's an incredibly empowering message. Ocean. And especially in these times when there's a tendency for us all to feel pretty helpless in face of some of the really even existential issues we're facing as human beings on this planet. But I love that you emphasize from the very beginning of our conference this idea of what's normal, what we believe is normal and normalization, because and now we can help Create that for each other and for the world, but really creating that for ourselves. Because otherwise we're constantly fighting against, you know, for some reason, I know I don't want to do that, it's probably bad for me, but that's the normal. And I'm fighting it until I really embrace and develop community around and a lifestyle. And somehow to where then I'm making it easy for myself, right? Because then healthy choices become the path of least resistance, because it's become my new normal. That's what we're really talking about is that profound mindset change that becomes lifestyle change, it becomes culture change. And as you're saying, it could become world change.

Yeah, absolutely. Now we get to be everyday revolutionaries or evolutionaries, if you prefer. And to be a part of the solution, you know, with our choices, with how we treat each other and with how we treat ourselves. And, you know, it does help me cope. You know, like you and I were talking earlier about the pain in the world around us and how in some senses it can be overwhelming to face. And a lot of us shrink our hearts and our dreams and even our prayers to become more selfish and narrow in the face of pain that we can't solve. That can feel overwhelming. You know, when I think about the world my kids are going to inherit, when I think about what future generations are up against, it can be painful. But, you know, at the same time, I believe part of our task, our sacred opportunity as humans, is to love with as big a heart as we can, which means being willing to feel the pain and keep on loving. And perhaps in some way that pain will activate the immune response, the evolutionary imperative that was seeded in our DNA when we took birth. Because I can tell you this, if we don't face and feel the totality of what is, we will not be able to respond effectively and coherently. And that response may not look like any one of us is going to like, save the world, but maybe when we're in touch with the world, we can help to be agents of healing. And that won't solve it, but at least we'll be more human. And at least we'll feel like we can look in the mirror and say, I'm doing what I can. I have some integrity. I'm trying to live my life as best I can. And that, I think is sacred and beautiful. And at least with food, we have that opportunity in a way that doesn't just give to others, but also gives to ourselves.

I think that's a wonderful place to bring our conversation to A close. And it's so empowering. And I also think, keeping in mind the power of the collective, that our individual. It may seem small to us, you know, but we're putting seeds into a collective because we're not the only ones doing that. And the power of the positive is incredibly positive. I personally have a firm belief that even though we see how negative things culturally on so many levels, can be kind of viral in their effect, but positive things are viral in their effect too. And I feel ultimately the positive has a stronger DNA than a negative. So I'm hopeful in that regard.

Me too. Me too. Yeah. You know, they say pain pushes and vision pulls. Some of us are motivated by trying to get out of pain and suffering. We're hurting. We're sick of being sick, we're tired of being tired, and we're desperate. And that's a powerful motivating force. But what I find is that when people are just motivated by pain, and once they get out of pain, they lose their motivation. So we also need a vision. What are we going towards? What do we want for our lives and ultimately for our world? And if we can keep holding that, even when it hurts, when we don't get it, we keep holding that vision, then we're far more likely to get where we want to go when we can see it and feel it. Felice, thank you so much for your beautiful work and everyone for being a part of this profound conversation.

Thank you, Ocean, co founder and CEO of Food Revolution Network. Always a joy to have these conversations with you.

Like Mike.

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