Richard Taubinger | Selling Less and Serving More

Welcome to the Radical responsibility podcast. I'm Dr. Fleet Mola and I'm excited to guide you on a journey of authentic transformation. In each episode, I'll bring you insights from leading experts to explore trauma recovery, mindfulness practices, positive psychology, and innovative breakthroughs in health, wellness and life optimization. This is a space for real conversations that inspire meaningful change, helping you find alignment with the person you were always meant to be. Let's get started. Marketing doesn't have to feel icky or complicated. In this episode, I sit down with Richard Taubinger to talk about conscious marketing. How to grow your business while staying true to your values, actually helping people, and even turning marketing into a kind of creative, soulful practice. If you've ever struggled with how to reach your audience without feeling salesy, tune in. My name is Fleet Maul, your co host for this session, and I'm thrilled to be here today with Richard Tobinger. Welcome, Richard.

Thanks, Fleet. Glad to be here.

So, Richard, your work emphasizes obviously conscious marketing. And so I wonder, to begin with, if you could define what you mean by that, that approach, and how entrepreneurs can integrate these principles into their businesses to really develop more authentic connections with their customer base and to succeed altogether.

Yeah, that's a great question, Fleet. Well, I think that one of the underlying premises is that we want to do what's in the best interest of the customer. And so on a, maybe a traditional marketing or sales call, the idea is to close the customer at all costs. You know, a different approach might be to help the customer make the best decision. And if it's not a good decision, then to tell them that, and tell them that it's not the right time or they're not ready, or maybe the cost is too much, or they would be better somewhere else or working with somebody else. So I have a kind of a larger teaching that we can't get into. But there are definitely some principles behind conscious marketing. And I guess in the business world a lot of people follow Elon Musk and a lot of these tech entrepreneurs. And there's a concept called first principles, which. A first principle is a principle from thousands of years ago and it should exist no matter what. And so we have some, we have like three first principles in terms of conscious marketing. And one is basically, we want to do whatever in the highest good. And so we're always kind of checking whether the ad or the thing we're selling or the product we're representing actually helps people and doesn't hurt people. You know, the second one is kind of karma free. Marketing or do no harm. So there's always a readiness of the client. And so we don't want to sell or push something on somebody when they're not ready. And then the third first principle is really just tell the truth. And so, and that means kind of like don't hide certain things. So truth by or admitting certain things is just as bad as not sharing everything. And I think what we've seen in recent years is the companies that make things a lot more transparent and that's, it takes a lot of courage to do that. And people that are more vulnerable and less perfect on the outside, they actually tend to do a lot better. And then we trust them more because we can, we can see who they are. And that includes if, if you mess up or if you make a mistake, you admitted it and you, and you make your, your company or you make a customer good to make things better rather than worse.

So for the bootstrapping entrepreneur or even a marketing professional who's trying to expand their customer base, trying to get their marketing to work, it might sound like what you're talking about is reducing my potential customer base and limiting my marketing strategies.

I think if you're an entrepreneurial company, you actually have the advantage because bigger companies are seen as colder and there's many more things that can be hidden among the many layers. So if you're starting an entrepreneurial company, you know, telling the truth, doing what's in the highest good of the customers, doing no harm, and, and actually leading with values right from the start is a benefit to you.

Yeah, obviously I completely agree with you. I'm totally on board. And at the same time I just, I think there could be a mindset of I just want to do what works, I need to get customers. But in, I think what you would probably assert that in the long run, in the long term you're going to get more sustainable growth taking this conscious marketing approach than just trying to do whatever works in kind of an immediate short term fear based approach.

Yeah, I, I could see where somebody would have that perspective, but I might have a different opinion. And everybody can have their own opinion, but I kind of think if you start off bad, you're going to end bad. And most businesses are built on long term customer value. And so if you're not focusing on that right out of the gate with your first customer and providing value, then what you're going to have to do is keep finding new customers and then keep under delivering. And so that's not a good sustainability strategy ever for a Big company or a small company. So I might actually argue the opposite, that you might as well just start to do what you say and deliver on your promises right from the gate. And so few companies are willing to use creativity and really go that extra mile to over deliver that you'll stand out, you know.

Exactly. So also, and we're talking primarily about marketing here, but in terms of sales, this approach and kind of where you started with, we're not trying to sell products that customers don't need or they're not ready for and so forth. And so similar in sales to kind of consultative selling needs based selling really about a relationship where we're, we're meeting real customer needs and providing something that's actually value adding for them.

Correct?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think in general, you know, entrepreneurs are risk takers and obviously, you know, taking a big risk to starting a business and then there is all kinds of pressures to survive and thrive. I think sometimes there can be a felt struggle between meaningful values based work and then just succeeding, just driving profit and driving growth. And I think your approach addresses that. I wonder if you could say a little bit about that.

Sure, yeah. Well, first I would say that a lot of the entrepreneurs I know are, I think there is a meme that entrepreneurs are risk takers. And I also think that a lot of entrepreneurs are very strategic and they make very calculated bets and they see things before other people see them. And I would, I would say that especially in the last 10 years what we've seen is entire industries being destroyed. And I would say often it's more risky to be in a company and have not have your fate in your own hands. So I view entrepreneurship as actually much less risky than working for somebody where, where you can't control your destiny. And then on the purpose thing, I think, I don't know, I think I, I thought this when I was younger. You know, I was a financial trader and did a lot of things. I loved it when I was doing it, I was on the floor of the exchanges and then was one of the first screen traders, helped design actually some of the initial systems and things. And I think back then I thought, oh, I will make my money and then I'll do something that mean that's meaningful. But there's a certain point where either you don't make the money or you just burn out or you make the money and then you can, you can integrate that in. But the money is never really assured. So how we counsel especially people in our mastermind and those that know Our higher end clients, either they're already doing what their purpose is or it might be just outside the periphery. And so what we try to do is pull it into the center. So the purpose is at the center around everything they do rather than it's the thing that they get to at the end, you know, and if you, what you want to do is design your business so that everything you do in your business contributes to the purpose. And then you'll get up at 5am and you'll work extra hours and you'll make the hard calls and you'll do the things that you need to do because you're kind of driven internally because it's part of what you're passionate about in the world. If you're. I know a lot of people who don't do well in certain industries and they have another passion on the side that they would rather do, but they're kind of locked in with however they're locked in, whether it's a mortgage or, you know. Yeah, I couldn't agree more that I

think having our destiny, our own hands, even though it may be a bit risky and we're carrying a lot of weight on our shoulders, is where I'd much rather be than being at the mercy of corporate budgets and so forth. And I think most entrepreneurs are very much purpose driven and driven by a passion to innovate and bring something new and something that's really meaningful to them. I think there can be a risk that once dealing with the challenges of growing a business and scaling a business, one can sometimes lose sight of that. And I wonder if we could talk a little bit about it. Depends on the kind of business. Sometimes the brand may be very product identified, but very often entrepreneurs need to put themselves out there. They are the brand. And there may be a lot of fear around putting oneself out there and fear of rejection and, you know, fear of being driven by whatever other people think of us and so forth. So I mean, that is one of the things that I think often sets entrepreneurs apart is their willingness to put themselves out there.

Yeah, that's true.

So what would you say to somebody who's sort of struggling with that part of their business and maybe trying to kind of maybe avoid that by trying to grow the business while being in the shadows somewhat. Right?

Yeah, that's a great question. Well, what we try to do is especially with marketing or sales, like a lot of people are resistant to sales especially, but we try to create a new paradigm around it. And so you can kind of be driven by pain Pleasure, but also just shifting the beliefs you have about something, the meaning you make about something. And so we're, I mean, I think, I think marketing and sales in general, like we're hit with so many messages every day, we kind of develop marketing antibodies and then the thought of doing it for ourself and inflicting that on other people kind of like makes us go weak. So we kind of have to look at the core of what marketing is. And kind of the first level is that if nobody knows about what you do and the solutions you provide, and often those help people get out of pain and you know, help them transform their life and whatever service you're doing, health, fitness or finance or whatever. And so, so you just have to create awareness of your solution. That's really the fundamental base thing that marketing does. And without that skill in your business, you're not going to do very well. Now the thing is, if you outsource the other people, generally they aren't going to care as much as you. And so if you're starting an entrepreneurial company, that's important. The second thing that you can do is start to make marketing more of a teaching. And more of a teaching means that you can kind of start to take people along the first 10 or 20% of the journey to get them ready to accept your solution or see what the road is to help them see it's possible. The third way you can reframe it is you can start to see marketing as art and beauty and inspiration. A lot of marketing inspires us to take action and inspires us to buy the running shoes and sign up for a marathon or to invest money for our kids college education while there's still time or you know, to start to do meditation every day and calm our nervous system down so that we don't go get triggered at work or with our family. And these are, these are important things, but this inspiration. And then there's a beauty behind marketing. Great, great ads. If you start to see it that way, then you put a lot of love into it versus something you have to do. And then the four, I have two more. The fourth is marketing as medicine. And if you can see the people are actually in pain and they have, there's all these symptoms out there and if you have a solution, you know, if you were a doctor and you had a solution that could cure a chronic illness and you, you didn't get in front of the camera or share that with people and those people continue to suffer, really what's holding you back isn't it's a sense of safety, but it's actually just your ego playing small because it doesn't want to be protected. But on the other side, there's people suffering out there. So if you can start to see that what you do has a real impact. You know, we, we marketed a movie called the Wisdom of Trauma that was seen by over 10 million people and we prevented suicides and helped a lot of people through some difficult times through Covid. If the founders, creators of that movie didn't want to do the marketing and outsource that to somebody else, that wouldn't have done as well. And then the fifth level is where marketing actually becomes part of your spiritual practice. And this is what I actually really love because what you have to do is come from your higher self. You have to come from the soul level. But if you look at great entrepreneurs like Steve Jobs and a lot of others, they all had some kind of like meditation or walking practice, something that helped them to see, to connect with their inspiration and their higher self and wisdom. And the parts of our higher self doesn't want to hide. Our ego wants to keep us safe and it wants to protect us from rejection or whatever. So as you start to get in front of the camera, as you start to post online and you start to share your message, you actually evolve as a soul. It's actually, it's some of the fastest transformational work that you can do is to actually stand for something in the world to share your values, to share your origin stories, to share your struggles and your wins and then to help people, you know, to start to serve people. That's a real act of service. So that's, that's, there's no difference between that and you know, would I rather have somebody do that or meditate 30 minutes every morning or whatever. I mean you don't have to do either. Sometimes they say market and then meditate and then meditate and then market. So it's like this flow where you bring your best of yourself out there.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought forth that inner dimension because not only I think is that having some kind of inner practice is really important in terms of sustainability and taking care of ourselves and well being and also staying in touch with our purpose and our values and our passion. But also it's a tremendous source of creativity. As you mentioned, some of the greatest creative geniuses in the world of business and marketing had some kind of inner practice which got them out of that fear based space and, and then allowed their mind to access Lots of creative ideas.

That's true. Yeah.

So you were also kind of describing that journey from how we maybe help people become problem aware, pain aware, who are not, and then solution aware, and then of course, finally brand aware. And I wonder if you could talk about that journey a bit from a conscious marketing perspective.

Well, I mean, one of the things that sometimes people. One of the. We have a whole teaching on the myths of marketing. And one of the myths is that, you know, marketing's role is to create the demand. And really it's not what you want to do is find people that already have a problem and then just help them solve it. And so a lot of times, if you know what to look for, you can see how to see the people are looking for better solutions or they already have problems. What the opposite approach is, is to create something that people may want and then try to get people convince them that it's the right thing. And that's a real kind of uphill battle sometimes. So it's better think about, like, health and fitness. There's like all kinds of programs out there and ways that you can go, but it takes that person to be ready. And so you can differentiate the way you do it. But then you have to find people who are ready to make that choice. And often, sometimes on a. A sales call or if I'm talking to somebody and they've contacted me. Right. I haven't tried to push something on them. I'll just go, what happened? It's kind of like, it's a little bit disarming, you know, and they'll be like, what do you mean, what happened? Well, I was like, why are you reaching out now? Like, what happened that, you know, and it's like, did your partner leave you or did you get diagnosed with something or did you run out of money? And so I don't think we need to over complicate it. I. I think it's just finding people who need a solution to something and then being there with something that's slightly better and more creative than somebody else. Yeah.

And I think there's a distinction in terms of pain awareness or problem awareness between creating something and then trying to put people in pain because they don't have it, versus real problems that are out there that people are just unaware of. I mean, one example might be, you know, the dangers of mitotoxins in our environment and mold in homes and so forth that a lot of people are just unaware of and may be suffering all kinds of problems. They don't realize they're coming from their own home environment. So somebody who's, you know, a genuine effective mold mitigation company or something may need to do some awareness to get people problem aware and then realize there is a solution and then of course put their brand forward as a viable solution to that. So you mentioned one of the myths. I know you talk about five myths of marketing. I wonder if you could talk about the other four. What if transformation isn't just about thinking differently, but feeling differently? Science shows us that true change happens when we align not just our minds, but also the neural networks in our hearts and guts. This heart mind connection is the key to deeper healing, resilience and expanded awareness. That's why I created the Heart Mind All Access Membership and Community. A space designed to help you rewire your nervous system, cultivate heart intelligence, and live with greater clarity and purpose. With over 1000 hours of transformational teachings specifically curated to meet your needs. You'll learn from world renowned meditation teachers, neuroscientists and experts in neuroplasticity, all sharing powerful tools to help you shift your mindset and heartset, regulate your emotions and unlock your full potential. You'll also gain unlimited access to to every summit and course we've ever produced, a treasure trove of Wisdom worth over $10,000 and growing. Plus live gatherings and an inspiring global community to support your journey. If you're ready to step into a more heart centered, connected and conscious life, I invite you to join us. Click the link to learn more and start your journey today.

Well, I'll share a few. We actually have a lot more than five. I think there's like 40 or 50 in our system. But the thing is that these are all the things that people kind of misunderstand and then it kind of prevents them from, from getting out there. So that one I just mentioned is that marketing's role is to create demand. So that's generally a really bad way to approach a market, you know, So I could get tons of examples on that one. Another one is that you can actually, if you're, especially if you're a personal brand, a lot of people think they can outsource all the marketing to an outside company or brand. And we call that the outsource myth. And I think in today's world where there's a lot more AI, there's a lot more depersonalization. It really needs a founder's presence, especially if you're the entrepreneur, to kind of step in front of the camera or to be on social media and even just to take an active role. In emails, you can tell when, when it doesn't have the heart and the soul of the person who's created it. It's just so clear that like, some other person has created it. It doesn't mean you can't have an assistant or hire a great agency or even leverage the AI tools that are out there to create better copy. But it needs to have some of you in there because if it doesn't, people will know it. You could argue that AI is going to get so good, but on a, on a real video, like, especially on video. That's why video is so important, because it, because you put your presence out there. And a lot of people don't do that because, you know, they have the negative connotations with marketing and sales. So if you look at almost all the great brands, personal or corporate, they've been driven by, by one or two individuals who have said yes to that. The other is just that. I'll share another myth that that marketing is a cost. This is an interesting one. And so sometimes people will be like, I don't have the budget to do any marketing. You know, as if you're starting your own firm and you're like, I don't have the budget to do marketing. Well, in the old days where you like bought a newspaper ad or I don't know, like, I'm probably dating myself or like a yellow page thing, or I don't know, like, like hired some flyer firm or TV was expensive or a magazine ad, you had to spend a lot of time and money and then you didn't really ever. It was hard to figure out if it ever did well for you. But with, you know, Facebook ads especially, and a lot of the other ads out there, you know, you, you could know the return on a marketing campaign in like a day, you know, or two. And so the whole idea is actually that marketing and sales have kind of merged. And typically by the time a customer lands on your page, they've already done a lot of the research or you can move them along that pretty fast. So marketing can actually be a profit center. And that's where, you know, if you give Facebook or YouTube or one of these companies a dollar, like, you should get like a dollar back right away or pretty fast, you know, say within the first 30 days. Maybe the exception to that is if you have a much bigger brand, then you have to invest in brand equity and, you know, align with influencers and brand associations and things like that. I think, I think there is a bigger corporate game that it affects, it's a little bit of a different game than somebody that's more entrepreneurial or maybe a professional like an accountant or a, or a therapist or something like that. That's, they're completely different games. And I think the mistake is people mix those two up, you know, and then quite honestly there's probably, you know, it's, it's hard to find somebody that plays that game well, you know, and so that's kind of the challenge for the entrepreneur to align with somebody who knows how to, how to do that. But if you can find that person or hire that person or you learn it yourself, it's kind of like finding customers on demand then, because then it's just a matter of whether your system can handle the inflow of customers versus how much you're going to spend on marketing.

And I think that can vary whether it's B2C or B2B and the length of the sales cycle. But certainly in B2C world the sales cycle can be very short. And online advertising, Facebook advertising is at least part of our business model. And it is, you do get immediate returns. Right. So you can judge how much you're going to spend depending on whether you're getting a return on ad spend right there. So it does make marketing much simpler. And yes, it's absolutely an investment as you're describing. And before you were describing, you went so far as I think to describe marketing as a spiritual path and something or at least not separating the two out. Like I think so many people get the idea that sales is kind of, you know, ugly or dirty. Marketing's kind of, you know, this terrible thing and we're all being marketed to and it's just manipulation and, and so there really should, I think to be successful we have to somehow fall in love with marketing and realize that it's a value added process where we're really bringing value to people's lives and solving real problems. And if we can get into that spirit, it changes the game completely for us in terms of being willing to market our products and services and to be successful doing so.

Yeah, and I completely agree with that. If you can make that shift, then you can just kind of eliminate the word marketing and you can just go out and be of service to people and then, you know, if your intentions is pure and you've created a great product, then people will join you and then those that don't, they'll hopefully they go out and make the transformation anyway or go work with somebody else and create the transformation. So you've made the world a better place. I believe that that will come back to you in some way.

I'm wondering about the principles and this gets into a little bit of the marketing that sometimes feels a little manipulative. But so, you know, let's say you have a really good product that's meeting a real demand. You're identifying potential customers that have a, would really benefit from your product and you're still trying to figure out how do I break through the noise, right? And how do I get them to make a buying decision. And so very common principles that come into marketing messaging is scarcity and urgency. It's just so common in marketing to try to create that sense, to get someone who's in that, you know, looking, thinking, maybe phase to actually make the choice and purchase your product. So I wonder, is there a way to bring scarcity and urgency into conscious marketing? Because on some level they're often, you know, they're often a bit contrived.

Right? Well, I think, you know, the first principle of tell the truth is really important here. On many of the programs that we sell, you know, if there's say a two or three week open window, we'll sell 50% of the program in the last two days. You know this because you're in the online space. So I don't really use the word scarcity so much, but I do use the word deadline. And if there's a real deadline, for example, the course the first live module is going on next week, then I say the first live module is going on next week. And if, if you're gonna raise the price, then if you're actually gonna raise the price and say the price is gonna go up, then just tell the truth and say, you know, the word because is really powerful. We're closing down the program tomorrow in 24 hours because we start next week with the group. And I wanna give all my attention to serve those people who have decided to go deeper and we're going to raise the price in the future. If that's true, you know, if you're not, then don't say that. The funny ones is like, oh, this is a limited offer and it's like a digital product and you know, it's not limited. You can kind of like see through all the bullshit of people, you know, sometimes. So I think closing is important. And then especially into the close you need those two closing emails least one, but the day before and we normally send two in the last day to let people know that that deadline's real. It's it's not a fake deadline. And I think it's important to be okay with that because it gives people the last opportunity. And I know if somebody joins and they actually start to attend the courses, we build out, I know we always try to build in like 10x the value. So if we charge $100, we try to give a thousand dollars. I know if somebody shows up and goes through a process and does the work, they're going to get the result or have a really good chance of getting the result. And so I want those people in, I want, I don't want that person left on the side. So I feel okay with using deadlines as long as it's done with truth. When I see people back off at the close, I see them leaving a lot of money on the table and they're actually not serving the people that could benefit from that offer. And we're always like, is this true? You know, is this true? If it's true, then we're like, okay, we'll do this so often. We'll design the offer so that it closes and it's not offered, or we'll design the offer so that a bonus goes away and it's only for this cohort or sometimes the first time we do something it'll be live and in the future it won't be live. So if you want to get in on this first time we're doing it because we're doing live sessions in the future they will be pre recorded, then this is your deadline, you know, to get in on these live sessions. So those are all just, just transmitting the truth of what your offer is. There's nothing manipulative about that, it's just clean.

I think that's really important distinction. And you know, there are some basic things about human psychology and the way the brain works. And you know, one example from my own personal experience, the first time I went to a Tony Robbins live training, it was Unleash the power within. There were like 7,500 people in this huge auditorium. It was quite an experience. I was looking for a pattern interrupt, a shift in my life at that moment. And it really served its purpose. It was incredibly helpful. And you know, Tony's a master marker. His team are master marketers. And you know, they, they do a great job of selling from the stage. So they're selling high ticket offers from the stage and everything else. So I knew I was being market for a high ticket offer. And they're probably employing NLP and employing all kinds of things. And then There was urgency and schedule, it was everything involved. But I think the point there is if they let people leave the auditorium and go home and think about something for three or four days, it's very unlikely they're going to purchase that product. And now if they were selling snake oil, this would be a terrible thing to employ the techniques they're using. But they're selling something at high value. And I in fact did purchase a high ticket offer. I came back and realized in terms of the dates and the way things worked out, it wasn't really, really going to work for me. So I came back to them and they restructured a program that would work for me. If I had not purchased at the training a week later, it's very unlikely I would have made that buying decision. And in fact what I got involved with in their work was incredibly helpful for me personally and to my business. So I think it's having the confidence in what we offer and still not verging into outright manipulation, but having that we do need to somehow guide people through across that fear threshold of making a purchasing decision.

Yeah. And I think there are ethical ways to do that and non ethical. I've seen a lot of ways that that's not done. I think the challenge, I'm not talking about Tony, but I think the challenge that sometimes I see if you're, if people are in a vulnerable state and then you employ those techniques or if you're using certain things like exclusion of a group or are you part of this? There's some things that are, that don't feel right to me and that I wouldn't do personally. I think you have to decide what you stand for and you know, I think there are choices to make along the way.

Yeah, obviously I don't want to be critical of Tony. He's been very successful and helped a lot of people. I do think they go right up to the edge with some selling in that training space because you're obviously in a very unique mind state having going through that training. But nonetheless I was grateful that I made the decision. But yeah, I think they're, they're very close to the edge with some of that and somebody else might have made that decision and it wouldn't have not have been a good decision for them. I wonder if we could talk about simplifying things. You know, it seems today especially with the world of digital marketing and now AI and everything and there's just a lot of complexity even in the world of digital advertising, there's Facebook and Google and YouTube and TikTok and all this. And there's lots of different strategies and competing strategies out there and, and it can just seem very complicated. And I wonder if we could talk about how to simplify it for entrepreneurs. Like, you know, getting a simple, straightforward approach where you can succeed and then maybe, maybe build from there. But you're really trying to drill down to what, you know, the simplest, most straightforward approach to getting your product into the marketplace with that brand awareness.

Yeah, I mean, I, I think it's a complex problem. I would just say that, you know, a lot of companies out there will be, I won't mention any names, but it's like the only way is this way. And so whenever you hear that, you should be really, your BS meter should go up and go, well, that's maybe not true. It's maybe the only way because that's the program you sell or that's what you're good at. So what I would say is most platforms have opportunities. Most platforms have many thousands of businesses and millionaires, whether it's Shopify or Amazon sellers or you know, affiliates for different programs or you know, whatever it is, whatever social media platform, generally there's kind of a market fit. So generally certain platforms will serve certain niches and age groups. And so I would just say that for most companies, they need to go deep with one platform and then just go all in on that platform. And until they've mastered that, rather than, so it's like rather than dig five shallow wells, you go one well, really deep. Only when you have that well that's, you know, giving you water or oil, whatever the liquid is, then you can drill another one. I will caveat that by saying it's good to have a backup in case you get banned on a platform and, or a backup to a company. For example, Facebook and Instagram are owned by the same company as you know, so YouTube would be a good backup there, you know, so yeah, so I think simplifying and going deep with one platform is important. And then you need a good model that has different products that serve different levels of customers. So if you just have an entry product but you don't have, say a higher priced product that takes people to a deeper experience, then rather than develop another entry product or target a different market, you're better to go deeper with one niche. And so people, you know, I think more successful business people know this, but when you're starting out, it's easy to kind of look at the shiny object and either jump platforms or feel you have to do everything but you can look at most, you can look at most, most brands, you know, at least startup brands in the digital space especially. And they've, they've normally broken out on one platform and gone really deep with that. And only after they do that do they really go somewhere else. And they've also have a very simple business model. They have like their entry product or the way they get traffic and they have like something that liquidates that it means like it's an easy sell, an easy buy in and then they have kind of a middle range product and then they have an upper range product and normally they're focusing on a very specific niche or niche. That would be true for a lot of programs. I mean if you, if you go a level higher than individual, you're Talking about like SaaS, platforms and publishing companies and stuff like that, it's a little bit of a different model and you can go above that too. But I'm just kind of focusing on the lower entrepreneurial field right here.

So I, I know you consult with entrepreneurs obviously and thinking of someone, let's, let's say someone's very passionate. They have a service, they have a product, maybe mid to high six figure stage and you know, they want to really, they feel like they, they've got proof of concept here and they, they're passionate, think they can really make a difference in the world with their product. But they don't really feel like they know that much about marketing. They're not an expert in marketing, they're not an expert in digital marketing. If you start trying to teach yourself and learn it, train yourself, I mean it can just be so much, it can just seem overwhelming. So how do you guide people initially? What, what's that path to that entrepreneur? Learn what he needs to learn, you know, bring people into his team that he, that he can afford or you know, just a way to bootstrap. Because a lot of people in our audience are bootstrapping entrepreneurs. So they can't just go out and hire some marketing expert or even necessarily outsource to a marketing agency. They kind of have to figure it out on their own, but not get lost in the weeds while they're doing so. I wonder if you've kind of guided entrepreneurs in that way at whatever level and if you could distill down a little advice there.

We have three programs, we have kind of a do it yourself kind of membership program and you know, if you have the time and you don't have a lot of money, then you know you can buy five great Marketing books, maybe get a mentor or join like something like our membership or something. You know, there's a lot of them out there where you can learn the basics. A lot of the, you know, like if you wanted to do YouTube, the other way to go is there's probably thousands of videos on how to optimize and get really good at YouTube and there's memberships sites that just teach you how to do YouTube. So just you can train yourself, you can do it yourself. The done with you is more working with somebody who has a training program. So we have a conscious launch accelerator that takes you, you know, A to Z through the launch process to get an offer out there. And so I think we charge fifteen hundred dollars for that. And so that's a way to fast track. It's a way to work with somebody who's done hundreds of launches. And we're not the only game in town. There's other ones out there. You know, I initially went through Jeff Walker's program, I think in like 08 or 09 I was like one of the first people in there. So this is 24, that's a long time ago. So yeah, so there's all kinds of programs that's done with you. I would probably recommend that it's cost a little bit more and then there's done done for you. So if you have the resources, you have money, but you don't have time and you have a bigger vision, then you can hire like we're an agency. There's a lot of agencies out there that you know, for a fee or on a retainer can, you know, can upscale you. I will say that I still think it's good to dip your toe in and really know how to direct. Like if you spent 10 hours on YouTube training, you'd know more than most people in the world, you know, and that's one of the more powerful platforms. So I think you have to decide where you're at and then really decide that it's one of the most important things in your business for survival and growth and to get your work out there. And so just go at it, you know, get a 30 day challenge and spend three hours a day on marketing in a program. Like that's 30 times three is about a hundred hours. Like you'll make huge strides and you'll be slightly dangerous at that point, which is good, you know.

So yeah, you mentioned, yeah, such programs are excellent and I've made use of quite a few of them myself. And you measured membership programs like you have one and of course there are many out there and, and membership programs are often not that expensive. But at least you, you have access to some models and some frameworks and to other entrepreneurs to interact with. There is a step up that's a bit more expensive, can be a lot more expensive is the idea of masterminds. And I just wonder what you think about, you know, an entrepreneur who's maybe gotten to seven figures and wants to scale further the value of getting involved in higher level marketing. Masterminds.

I think there's a lot of negative press about masterminds, but I can tell you I've been part of maybe three or four, four in my career and then we run one and it's the fastest way to 10 extra business is to be around others that are really successful. So I think you have to have a lot of discretion on which ones you join. But if you're a seven figure business owner and aren't connected with others who are in the field or running things like you can solve a problem in an hour versus three months of struggle and a lot of money and get new ideas and entrepreneurship can be lonely. You want to surround. You know, like a lot of times you're the only one in the family or the community that's thinking the way you are. So I think there's like emotional support too. I really have found some of my best friends through these groups. I've paid up to $60,000 a year to be part of groups. And you know, these people are extraordinary business people and you know, they become good friends too. So I'd recommend going down that road eventually. I mean, there can be a higher cost, but it's, they can be invaluable. There are a lot of different types of masterminds too. That's another topic.

Yeah, I think that's a, it's a higher cost decision, one that needs to be made very carefully. But it's been incredibly valuable with my own business, my own career. So I completely agree with you there. You mentioned before the wisdom of trauma film which ended up being very successful featuring Gabor Mate primarily and produced by two wonderful filmmakers. And we, we were able to participate in promoting film and it had a real breakthrough. And Gabor Mate was doing, you know, well already, but his brand just exploded after that film. And so I wonder if, you know, and that's an example of a conscious brand, right? Something that's really trying to put something of high value into the marketplace. So I wonder if you could talk about maybe some strategies that you've seen work for this kind of breakthrough marketing that really gets a brand out there in an accelerated way.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's something about the demand just being there and you meeting demand that really hasn't been served. So that movie was launched in the middle of COVID So it had a really, it had some trail winds. And then Gabor Mate himself, you know, has a lot of credibility, has some New York Times bestseller books and he was able to bring in a lot of his friends. And then Zaya and Maurizio over at Science and Non Duality had created a really amazing, you know, documentary. So it had, it had everything aligned to it. And then that particular documentary was a direct, direct to the consumer documentary because the film had gotten rejected by a lot of the, like Apple and Amazon and Netflix. It had gotten rejected by all three of those or not. Not picked up, basically. Not rejected, but not picked up at the time. So we created a whole new model which was a direct to consumers. So that, that one had a lot of different elements to it, but really it was the creators, including myself, that were just passionate about the product. And then it was, it was the right time. And so it had a lot of, a lot of things. Sometimes you get a little bit lucky. But the quality and the, the passion that the team, the people of the team had made that project flow. And I think you could apply that to any, any project. There's no like magic fairy dust or secret formula to trick the algorithm. It's like, it's just hard work. They spent two years doing it. Gabor Mate spent you know, 79 years of his life writing books and serving people and creating models. He spent 20 years in marketing, you know, in digital marketing from the start. And we did a large scale summit with that and had really talented teams. And so you can't just say, oh, it's just one thing. But I think when you work and care enough and your, your intention is to really help people, then that will pay off in the end.

Yeah, no doubt. Everything you talked about contributed to that success. And you did mention that the unique of kind of a direct to consumer approach with that film and getting that film out there. So sometimes it does seem like there's a unique approach or a bit of a disruptive approach that can, that can help the willingness to try something different instead of going through the usual channels.

Yeah, well, in that case they, they didn't have the choice to go through the traditional channel. So it wasn't even a choice. They were kind of forced into it, which is A good thing.

In the end, it worked out very well. So maybe talk a little bit about the world of publishing because that's an example where there's the tried and true channels which are in some ways less and less viable. In some ways can still be very helpful to be published by a major publisher. But the whole world of self publishing has become, you know, something that can be really advantageous, but it may be backing up for just a minute before that. But also just the importance of a founder of getting a book out. And that's not going to make sense for every single business. But for a lot of businesses, a book can really be a calling card and a brand enhancement. So I wonder if you're in your experience and where you advise founders to get a book out there and then the best, most efficacious ways of doing that.

I mean, there's different things that can build your status like a TED Talk or a book or your own method. I definitely think there's a time where a book is important for your brand. If you have something unique to say, I don't think everybody should write a book, but if you can do it, it's good in terms of the best way to get it out there. You know, if you give it to a publisher, if you can get one of the main publishers to take it, it's probably okay. And the industry's consolidated, quiet around. And then, you know, there's, there's sub strategies like just publish it on Amazon or self publish and stuff like that. I think it's probably, it's not my expertise, I'm not a book publisher. I would kind of steer away from that question just because I don't know the world probably as good. But I will say that when you're trying to build your status in the market, having a book that does well can be really important. And writing a book is a long process. And to write a good book is a long process. I think it might become less important in the future as AI gets better, to be honest. But right now it's still, I'd say in the next 10 years is still important.

So you kind of alluded before to the idea of a value ladder a bit in terms of your products. You have something for customer acquisition, whether it's a lead magnet or an inexpensive product. And you can move people up your value ladder. And you kind of alluded to that before. And in some way books can serve even, you know, self published, even AI written books in the business space can serve as simple lead magnets or simple, inexpensive product offerings that could get you into the marketplace.

Yeah, you can definitely use a book for that. I wouldn't call that simple though. Like a simple book might take you, you know, a couple hundred hours to write and then you have to build a funnel and you have to set up Facebook ads. I wouldn't combine simple and book in the same sentence. And so a lot of times we think these, we can just produce these things and I haven't been able to do it fast. And I think some people are really talented writers and they, and that's kind of one of their skill. There's kind of one of their mastery skills. Most people are not. And then you can kind of tell if it's done by AI right now. And so I wouldn't recommend that because that can actually decrease your status and credibility if it doesn't have a unique voice.

Took me 10 years to write my first book, so.

Right. It was just an overnight success, right? Yeah, yeah. So easy.

Right. But I do think with AI there are some people learning how to, you know, do some interesting things with AI and you know, simple how to things in a business could be part of a value ladder. Pretty, you know, not, not a book that's going to, you know, necessarily a huge audience or, but, you know, kind of simple how to things. Even in marketing, there could be some fairly simple how to marketing books that could be very useful and well done and not necessarily be, you know, landmark books. But I guess maybe, maybe the broader question is just the different ways to get your message into the marketplace so people can get to know you and get to get the sense that you do have something to offer beyond, you know, purchasing whatever your major service or product is.

Yeah, I mean there's dozens of ways to get people to opt in and to give value. It could be a challenge, a quiz, summit books. I mean, you use summits to get emails and to promote things. So yeah, I think, I think there are a lot of different ways out there and it really is just case dependent and that's where you kind of want to work with somebody, you know, somebody that knows the game a little bit.

We're also in a world today where we have a lot of access to data and with various platforms you can, you know, get access to a lot of marketing data and you can get pretty deep into analytics and making data driven marketing decisions. So I'm, I'm just wondering in your experience about, you know, data driven decisions versus your gut in the world of marketing and that tension and it's not either or, but just you know, because you could, you could really get lost in the analytics and data and spend a lot of money getting the data. And personally I. In our company we do use data and it informs other decisions but in the end we make a lot of gut based decisions as well. Curious about your thoughts on that.

Yeah, I mean I want to know like, especially on like ad tracking, I want to know what's going on and that's become more difficult. And so you kind of have to play whatever games and then internally for your company there's probably going to be one or two metrics. You know, number of sales calls booked or you know, growth of your email lists or conversion rate on an offer. You know, there's like you don't need like a hundred metrics, you need like five maybe, you know, to like manage your business. I think where the gut comes in for me is sometimes I'm just, you know, like ideas just drop in or program names and subtitles. And also I'll do kinesiology checks with like is it in my highest good to work with this client or to take this project on or you know, is. So sometimes I'll check with my team and so if something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't right, you know, and so sometimes the mind wants to say yes, but you internally, you know, it should be no. Whenever I violated that, I kind of get steamrolled. So I use both. I think most entrepreneurs use both.

I'm wondering about within this kind of framework for conscious marketing, the importance of really getting to know our customer. And also, I mean as entrepreneurs often we have a million ideas and we often think everybody would benefit from what we're doing. And it can be difficult to really narrow in and find out really who is our customer and really get to know them and get in relationship with them. I wonder if you could talk about the value in that and the process of doing that and how that kind of fits into the overall perspective of conscious marketing.

I think it's just all marketing. I don't know if it's just conscious marketing, but really you exist to either help people fill a need, a desire or overcome a challenge they have. So one of our clients, Thomas Hubel, has a phrase, I feel you feeling me. So you should be empathetic with your customer and you should feel what they're feeling and they should feel that you feel what they're feeling. And how you learn that as you just enter in conversations with the people that you're working with and you just Ask them, what are you struggling with? What do you need help with? And if you're in a certain niche, like we're in marketing, we know, you know, we've been in this business for almost 20 years now. We know what people struggle with. It comes up over again, and we. We have solutions for them, and so we just let them know, hey, do you want some help with that? Do you want to get out of that? You want to put this together? You want to get your program launched? And so we, we just offer solutions. I don't think you need to complicate it too much. I mean, maybe when you're first entering a market, you have to kind of do that deeper dive. But really, I don't know. We've worked with Ken Blanchard, a lot of some of the other, like, more mainstream people. And it's just, you just talk to your customers or you survey them and you ask them, and you just. Are you just in communication with them?

Yeah. We're kind of nearing the end of our time, Richard, and I just wonder again, you know, for our audience, whether it's an aspiring entrepreneur or it's someone that's, you know, gotten to mid or high six figures and now is, you know, I. I think I have a business here. I really wanted to figure out how to scale this and, and do it in a good way and not kill myself and not end up divorced doing it. And you know what? Maybe some core principles or core advice that you offer from your experience of working with entrepreneurs.

You know, I think it comes back to what I said before. Put the purpose in the center. And for a lot of people, that purpose is to spend time with their family and the things that they love. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's for a cause or something else. So just keep your purpose close to you and right at the center. I think where you get off is when that kind of fades out. And so make that. Make your business in service to that versus the business as a pathway to that is a huge difference. And it's an internal difference. And then, you know, part of it is every day you should be focusing not on the end goal, but just the process and really enjoying what you're doing every day. You know, from a deep place. If you're not, then you just have to question how you want to spend your time every day. If you love what you're doing every day, then it's not really not work anymore. You know, you're just. You're just doing it. And for the marketing aspect, the conscious Marketing aspect, it's just seeing how marketing is your way to create relationship and connection with people so that you can help them. Doesn't need to be more complicated than that. And realize that if you're, you probably have some blocks around that if you're struggling with it. And so the more you can just get the blocks out of the way. They're mostly mental, which is good because all the techniques and strategies are out there. They're pretty straightforward. So once you get over the blocks, then marketing, Marketing doesn't have to be a struggle. It can actually be really easy.

Yeah, marketing can be fun. Fun and spiritually fulfilling. So I meant to ask you this at the beginning of the interview. I apologize a little bit. Your origin. So I know you have a background in investments, but at some point you made a leap to start your own marketing agency. And so you know, what kind of inspired you to build your own business and become primarily a marketer and known for conscious marketing? What was, what kind of was the impulse around that fleet?

Well, I had left the trading world and I just started to help people that were in the therapy and spiritual field. And I didn't even know I had really started an agency until somebody told me a couple years in. And so it just kind of unfolded naturally out of an act to serve that community, mainly because I was interested in personal transformation. And so that's kind of just what I did. And then I, I was in the right place at the right time. Around 2005, 6, because that's when all the digital stuff started to emerge and YouTube came out and Google came out and you know, all these things started to make, you know, representing authors and teachers and, and people who had programs you could go direct to the customer. And so the, the world started to change, as did cloud based computing. And we don't think about this now, but camera speeds, Internet speeds got fast enough finally.

So yeah, I think good timing there. And you know, I think because our background as a company, we come from the world of meditation and mindfulness and personal transformation and you know, sometimes there can be a little bit of a notion out in that world that success means selling out in some ways. And the fact that you were able to help people in that space and integrate your interest in personal transformation with becoming a successful marketer and marketing agency, I think really points to that. You know, what you said before, the, the fear of selling out can also just be a tendency to play small and a fear of kind of putting ourselves out there. So really appreciate what you've done. You mentioned you had an early, I guess mastermind or some training experience with Jeff Walker. And you know, Jeff Walker is a constant marketer, well known as marketer, but maybe not everybody knows he's also been a meditator for a long time. A very family focused, spiritually grounded person. So, you know, I don't think we have to leave our lives of spiritual focus and personal transformation behind it all to be successful business and marketing.

No, that's true. No, he's a really good guy.

So where can people find out more about your work?

They can go to consciousmarketer.com and if somebody wants to work with me, I'll give you a link for a dollar trial on our Soul Syndicate. And we tend to work with more healers, therapists, professionals that want to take a conscious approach to marketing. So if that's this, we're not for everybody, but if that's for you, then you can, you can try us out for a dollar for a month and then continue on. If you like us, I'd love to have you.

That sounds like a pretty great opportunity. So that link is right down below the video here, folks, and you can give that a try. So thank you very much, Richard, really enjoyed the conversation and thank you for the work you do.

Thanks, Lee. Thanks for having me on.

Okay, be well. Taking radical responsibility for our lives means taking action. And today you can start by helping us grow this community. If these insights into healing and transformation have served you, Please subscribe on YouTube and follow us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. While you're there, leave us a review. It takes 30 seconds, but it's the most powerful way to help our message reach someone else seeking deeper self awareness. Thank you for being part of the journey towards lasting change. Thank you for joining me on the radical responsibility podcast. Remember, real change happens when we commit to our growth, face our challenges with compassion and stay open to transformation. If you found this episode helpful, I encourage you to subscribe and help us spread the message of healing and personal empowerment. Stay grounded, stay present and stay true to you. Take care. Of.

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