The Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy Global Summit with Fleet Maull, PhD

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Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast, a.

Show about the incredible people dedicated to helping those who've experienced trauma.

My name is Guy McPherson and my mission is to raise the awareness of trauma and to inspire each of us.

To help those around us.

All right, you ready to do it? Yeah. There you go.

All right, Here we go. So 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1. All right folks, welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to have us. My guest today, Dr. Fleet Mal Fleet.

Welcome.

Thanks for having me, Guy. Great to see you.

Awesome.

So Fleet is the founder and CEO of Heart Mind Institute, also Wind Horse Seminars and Consulting, as well as a senior partner and principal in New Line Consulting. He is an IMTA Certified Professional Mindful Mindfulness Teacher and an Acharya which is a senior meditation teacher in the Tibetan tradition as well as a Roshi in the international Zen Peacemaker community. While serving 14 years in a federal prison on drug charges, Fleet co founded the first inside prison hospice program anywhere in the world and launched two national movements, the Prison Hospice Movement through the National Prison Hospice association and the Prison Dharma Mindfulness Movement through the Prison Dharma Network and Prison Mindfulness Institute. Fleet has written many articles and has given numerous interviews on a variety of mindfulness and leadership related topics. He's the author of Of Radical Responsibility, how to Move Beyond Blame. Fearlessly live your highest purpose and become an unstoppable force for good. Fleet, welcome to the podcast again.

Thanks for having me, Guy.

Incredible background. Before we get going here, share with the listeners, where you're from originally and where you are currently?

Well, I grew up in the Midwest, actually in St. Louis, kind of middle class, Roman Catholic upbringing in the 1950s, came of age in the 60s, went through the countercultural revolution thing, full participant in that. Today I live in Western Massachusetts with my wife Sophie, and we live about two hours west of Boston in a Connecticut river valley in a little New England town. Really quiet, little bucolic village.

Nice, nice. So, I mean, there's a lot to talk about. I know you have a lot going with Heart, Mind Institute and different summits. We're going to focus on one summit in particular, the Psychedelic Assisted Therapy summit, but give our listeners.

Kind of a brief synopsis. First of all, how did this all start for you? And then we'll get into Heart, Mind Institute and the different summits.

Sure, I'll try to do that really briefly. First of all, I think I was born a seeker. I. All throughout my early life I was.

Trying to understand the nature of mind, nature, reality, a spiritual, a natural kind of spiritual seeker. As I mentioned before, I went through the, you know, headlong into the whole countercultural revolution of the 60s and 70s and, and you know, was caught up in all the drug, sex and rock and roll and all that. But also was there was this true line of being a. Being a seeker. And before I could untangle all that, I earned my way into a federal prison sentence, a mandatory minimum drug sentence. I spent 14 years in a federal prison. But along the way I'd also done a three year clinical training in contemplative psychotherapy and integration of Buddhist and Western psychology. I've been trained as a Buddhist teacher for 10 years. You know, so I obviously was compartmentalizing my life in lots of ways. But anyway, by the time I landed in prison, I had a lot of training and a lot of skills and that was a huge wake up call. My son was 9 years old at the time. I had to face the reality of what I'd done to him and all the incredible selfish decisions I'd been making for so long. And so I just became radically focused on getting all the negativity out of my life, taking all the good I'd received and doing something positive with living a better legacy for my son than just his dad went to prison or died in prison. I know surely I'd survived my time. So that really became my monastery, my ashram time. And I was focused on really engaged in the community. I was teaching school. I started the first hospice program anywhere in a Federal in any prison in the world. Wow. You know, and, and as you mentioned in my bio, these two national movements came out of that work. And, and I've been out of prison since 1999, so about 25 years. And so I've been very involved in, in studying and practicing mindfulness across many traditions for over 50 years now. I've been studying neuroscience for a long time. Studying psychology for a long time. I have a PhD in psychology and I've been very involved in executive coaching, business consulting. I've been a seminar workshop leader, leading transformational workshops around the world. Before the pandemic, I was basically a road warrior doing that. But at some point I decided to try to move that work online. And then when the pandemic hit, it really took off. And that was Heartbeat Institute. And so we have a lot of courses online and we do a lot of summits. And it's really the integration, it's really a culmination of all this work I've been doing for the last 50 years or longer. And it's the integration of ancestral wisdom, contemplative wisdom, east and west.

Indigenous wisdom, appropriately related with sacred reciprocity, and the integration of all that with current science, current neuroscience, current psychology, positive psychology, positive neuroplasticity of those things. So our work is all about helping people optimize their well being, their happiness, quality of their relationships, their career success or professional success, just optimizing their lives altogether. And so we have summits on resilience, we have summits on rewiring your brain. We have a lot of courses that are around the same kind of content. I have my radical responsibility book and model, which is about the power of choice and the power of embracing really radical personal responsibility and personal accountability for the choices you're making in life and what you're creating for yourself with those choices and how that's not a burden, but really a doorway into incredible personal power and freedom. And so that's kind of the work and we offer it in a lot of different iterations, but basically we also have a big focus on healing trauma and post traumatic growth. And we're really, you know, we're fairly cutting edge around all of this. And our summits include really the leading speakers worldwide in healing trauma, in. In positive neuroplasticity, positive psychology.

Rewiring your brain to optimize your life. All of these things are really, the leading clinicians and neuroscientists in the world are on our summits.

And for those who maybe aren't really sure A summit is what?

Yeah, well, it's a kind of conference, an online conference. And there's different models for summits. Our summit is sometimes called the free summit model. We do summits, could be anywhere. Commonly there's six days, but we do some that are three days, five days. We've done some, as many as nine or 10 days, and they're free. And so we enroll anywhere from 30 to 80,000 in the initial running of our summits. And some of our summits with the replays that we run have enrolled like 250,000 people by now in a particular summit. Yeah, and they enroll for free. And they have, depending on the summit, they either have 24 hours or 48 hours access to each day's presentations. There's usually six, seven or eight presentations a day and they all become available at the same time. So you can just pick and choose what you want to watch and. But people who would like to take longer with it or come back to it are interested then in purchasing the, what we call the lifetime access upgrade. That includes a lot, includes all the contents of that summit, plus a lot of bonuses, often other summits. And that's how, that's how we monetize it, so to speak. And we're able for it to be profitable and then put profit back into continuing to grow and offer more summits. But this way we're able to reach, we've reached probably about, in the last four years, we've reached over a million, probably a million 200,000 people with our summits now all around the world and you know, the majority probably in North America and Europe. But we have people in every, almost every country in the world coming to our summits and people who wouldn't otherwise be able to access this material. And then a small percentage of people decide to purchase the upgrade and invest in themselves and invest with us, and that allows us to keep doing it. So that's kind of the way the model works.

So today we're going to focus in a sense on one of the summits coming up. And I'm just looking at the website here to all new 3rd annual psychedelic assisted Therapy Global Summit, which is going from October 8th to the 14th in 2024. Now, before we talk about the summit specifically, talk a little bit about if, if you don't mind, as kind of an entree about the psychedelics and the role of psychedelics and.

How you became. You talk to your, you talked about your experience in the 60s. I'm assuming there's some connection there, but.

I don't know, but there is a strong connection there. I was very involved in, with psychedelics in the, in the 60s and early.

70S, actually, well throughout the 70s, actually. In my South Mary high school in 1966, I discovered Buddhism, cannabis and LSD all in the same summer. And it kind of went on from there. But.

I, I, you know, and like a lot of us back in that era, I was involved with psychedelics recreationally, you know, partying, some of that craziness, but also spiritually, a lot of things out in nature and then, and also as a way to just really explore consciousness. And then I lived in South America for quite a long time and I was very involved in the plant medicine world down there. Primarily what's known as guacama or San Pedro, which is as it contains peyote, but it's a different cactus than the, than the cactus, than the peyote cactus here in the US and in Mexico and so forth.

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So but it's. They both have mescaline and so I was very involved in that for a long time ceremonially and studying with teachers and so forth. So, so then when I, you know, when I earned my way into that federal prison system, all my drug use stopped and in fact it stopped several years before that. And, and then coming out I, I had no interest in being involved in drugs and, and also was on, on supervision anyway for a long time. So I needed to stay drug free, but I had no interest in getting involved in drugs again. But I started over time reading about this emergence of what's been called a psychedelic renaissance. And I was a little skeptical about it, especially seeing a lot of stuff about and Peru and the kind of ayahuasca tourism that's going on and because I lived in these countries and I know what the real deal is and I thought some of this looks a little like maybe made up and some of it, but I was still open minded. So I kept following it. But then I started to see what was going on with the emergence of psychic assisted psychotherapy. And I got very interested because I started seeing some of the research where these therapies were having a profound healing impact for people suffering from very difficult to treat mental health challenges, a severe depression, anxiety disorders, panic disorders, addictions, ptsd, especially veterans with PTSD and so forth. So I got very interested in this because I've always been profoundly interested in healing. I'm trained as a psychotherapist. I never went that direction. I became more of a, more involved in consulting and coaching. But I, but I, you know, I had a master's degree, a deep clinical training program, and then I got my PhD in psychology. So I'm just always been very interested in that world. So I kept doing the research. I, well, I think we should do a summit in this area. And so we did our first one in 2022. And along the way, over this now three years, I've really gotten to know all the major players in the field. I knew some of them already through other connections, but I've really, you know, we had Bessel Vanicle on our summits, quite a few of our summits, because he's one of the leading trauma therapists in the world, right? And his book the Body Keeps the Score is like this amazing phenomena. It's been on the top of the nonfiction bestseller like 300 Weeks. And but he's an amazing clinician and theorist and practitioner and so. But he's also gotten involved in psychiatric assisted psychotherapy. So he's one example of some people I already knew from other fields who were also involved in this. But then I got to know a lot of new people and so, and on our summits we've had really almost all the leading researchers, clinicians real pioneers of the field.

People like Stan Groff, Paul Stamets, Andrew Weil, Deepak Chopra, and researchers like Robin Carhart Harris and Rosalind Watts and Matthew Johnson and you name it. Almost all the major influencers, so called movers and shakers in this emerging field of psychedelic assisted therapy and medicine have been on our summits. And so we're really involved in trying to build, we're committed to building this field and we feel like we're partnering with people in this field to really build this field in a good way. Back in the 60s a lot of us had this idea if we could just get everybody to drop lsd, the world would change and everything would be great. Didn't quite work out that way. And then of course there was a huge suppression and things were made illegal. But there's a new chance now and in doing my research I saw that there are so many nonprofit organizations out there and networks of people trying to do it right this time, trying to, this movement so we don't get the huge backlash that we got last time. So we take care of people, so we reduce the harm and really optimize the benefit of these medicines. And so I'm really encouraged by that and, but, but we really want to participate in that because there's still a lot of, there's a lot of risk. These medicines are very power.

You know, there's a little bit of a wild west right now with the psychedelic renaissance. There's the whole kind of. In terms of psychotic assistant therapies, the only one that's legal currently is ketamine. The others are happening within clinical trials. The FDA has approved clinical trials to start again quite a while ago, some maybe 10 years ago. So other clinical trials, legitimate clinical trials going on with mdma, with psilocybin, with lsd, with dmt, with many psychedelic medicines, mescaline and so forth and, but none of them have been made legal for the public for therapy yet. We thought MDMA might get rescheduled this August, but the FDA decided not to. I think it's inevitable. It's probably just going to delay it a year perhaps, or hopefully less. Australia did.

Approve both the use of the therapeutic use by physicians as part of therapy, both MDMA and psilocybin, earlier this year. So I think it's inevitable that some of these medicines will be rescheduled by the FDA and the DEA for use by therapists in the context of psychic assisted psychotherapy. But even still, the training is so important as we roll this out, there are so many Issues how to roll this out in a way that it's safe, the practitioners are well trained, that the consumer is well educated, or what they're getting into.

And then how to roll it out in an equitable way. Because the way it's being done in the clinical trials is really expensive. If that would be the model, only the elite could afford it. Right? So we have to find new models of how this is going to roll out, be available in an equitable way for everyone who could benefit from it. And there's a lot of people, brilliant people, working on this, right? So there's a lot of possibilities. And it's an exciting emerging field that has so much promise for healing so much human suffering, but it's got to be stewarded really well. And the science has got to be good and the training's got to be good, and good ethical principles and honoring the issues around inclusion and diversity, and with the plant medicines and indigenous communities, honoring sacred herthroposity and so forth. So we're working really hard with our colleagues in the field to at least participate, play some small role in helping steward this field forward in the most beneficial way.

Let me remind everyone I'm speaking with Dr. Fleet Mall. We're talking specifically Dr. Fleet Mall of the Heart Mind Institute, and we're talking specifically about his summit, Psychedelic Assisted Therapy global summit, starting October 8th and going through the 14th. So let's dial in here and talk a little bit more specifically about this summit.

Who's it for?

Well.

It'S for everyone in a sense, but I would say at the same time, the primary audience is probably mental health professionals. Now, the first year, we had a huge enrollment. I think it was just perfect timing. And we had a huge enrollment the first year, and it was probably 60% laypeople. Right? The general audience, there's a huge interest in this. Last year, I think it was maybe flipped. Maybe it was 60% mental health professionals, 40% lay audience. I expect it'll be something similar this year. You know, I think there's still a growing interest among the public in this, but I think that at least the people were reaching with our networks and our lists and our affiliates and so forth. Among the lay public, I think we may have met their needs for information for a while, but I think we'll continue to enroll because the public has a great interest in this and many people in the public don't even know about it yet. And many people who are suffering and not really benefiting from the existing treatments for depression, anxiety and so forth. Some of those treatments, the sri and some benefit some people, but they don't benefit a lot. And these new medicines offer great promise, these new therapies offer great promise. So I think we'll have a growing audience there. But we really do focus on the mental health professionals, the clinicians. And in fact we're building a, what we're calling the Psychedelic Practitioners Academy. And that's an annual subscription membership program where people who subscribe to that membership at a very low cost will have access to all of our summits ongoing, all that content plus courses. We already have one course that we built on psychiatristed psychotherapy with Dr. Ron Siegel. We're building another one right now with Sunny Strasberg, an amazing practitioner integrating ketamine assisted therapy with internal family systems and archetypal psychology. We're building a course with her around what she calls her theradelic approach. And we're going to be building more courses.

The members of the Psychedelic Practitioners Academy will have ongoing access to all that. They'll get their CES covered, they won't have to pay extra for their ces.

All of our summit and courses all have American Psychological Association CES available.

And then we'll be doing other things as we build out that community. We'll probably have some kind of free live workshop once a week with leading clinicians. We're eventually going to build in a practice management platform within it and so forth. So we're really looking to build a home for psychiatric medicine, psychedelic therapy practitioners where they know they'll get the cutting edge education, continuing education and all the resources and then have a community of peers that they can network with and so forth. So we're building that very much. But so I think the summit is such that and we structured such that they will be of interest to anyone who's interested in this field and there will be very much of particular interest to mental health professionals. And I think really in some ways necessary interests like this is one way to really stay abreast because you know, we're really addressing latest research. The latest findings were our interviews are with all the people currently who are most influential in this emerging field.

Okay, so they're again looking at the website. There are a number of people who I am familiar with and I've interviewed.

And actually James, James Fadiman is on there who I was a student of his at Institute of Transpersonal Psychology. I was in his class. Amazing teacher, but getting more specific fleet putting myself in the the shoes of someone who's going to attend this conference.

And there are a lot of speakers, but let's maybe choose one or two.

Streams of what are they going to learn more specifically beyond just psychedelics and psychedelics, what are some specific.

Topics that they're gonna possibly learn?

So day one focuses on indigenous, Eastern and Western modes of knowing and really the nature of consciousness, mind, spirit. So it kind of sets a context. And because in terms of the world of psychiatry, we really are drawing on all of those. Right. And it's really important to honor the indigenous communities that have been stewarding these medicines for thousands of years. Right. And so we'll have some amazing speakers, Chair Tan, Dr. Joe Tafur, Anya Lozenge Velder, Some really amazing speakers who are involved in the plant medicine world and also who can speak to.

These questions about the nature of mind and consciousness. We've had people like Deepak Chopra and Dan Siegel and many others on day one in the past. So that's day one. Then day two is really all about the research. It's about the research, it's about where we are with the possibility of rescheduling some of these medicines for prescription for therapeutic use and so forth. So we have Rick Doblin from Matt from maps, you know, who's been leading the charge to, to get the clinical trials started again. You know, he tried to prevent MDMA from being criminalized way back in the 70s. He wasn't successful at that, but started the organization maps. They do their big psychedelic science in person conference each year was a huge phenomena last last year in Denver. And so he's really one of the leading drivers in the efforts to have psychedelic medicines rescheduled for therapeutic use. And his organization, we'll have Matthew Johnson again, one of the leading current researchers, Rick Strassman, who wrote the book.

The Spirit Molecule about his work and research into DMT, Cassandra Veatchen from UC San Diego and many others, Catherine McLean and so forth. So that's really all about the research. And we'll be really getting into the nuts and bolts. What do we know and.

What are the directions really needed for further research? Obviously, the FDA is saying more research is going to be needed before they're going to approve MDMA for rescheduling. But also we don't really understand the therapeutic.

We don't fully understand the neurobiological therapeutic mechanisms of these drugs yet. We have ideas, but we don't necessarily. We know they're working. We know they're having a huge impact. We don't know exactly how. And it's also hard to.

Dial that in because we may learn more about the actual neurobiological mechanisms for increased neuroplasticity or increased change, what have you. But then there's the whole phenomenal set and setting and the combination of the medicine with the psychotherapy and the valid role of a placebo effect in all this. So it's a very complex thing and there's a lot of research that needs to be done. There's a lot of fabulous research happening. And it's just, I think, really important to keep moving that research forward, keep the field abreast of it so we know what we know. This is a field where there's a lot of enthusiasm and sometimes the enthusiasm and the hype can get ahead of the research. And so we need to make sure that we're grounding this in good science. So that's what day two is all about. Day three is getting into very specific therapeutic applications. So the potential for these medicines to work with people suffering from various kinds of trauma, as well as from PTSD or addictions or specific types of addictions or anxiety disorders and so forth. So that day really focuses on the particular therapeutic applications and talking about some of the protocols involved, some of the dosing and so forth for safe delivery of these medicines. Then we have a day focused on the real importance of preparation and integration. The preparation of a client going into a session and the integration of the experience afterwards, which are both absolutely critical to optimizing the benefit and reducing any potential risk or harm for that. Then we have a day focused on the evolving standards and ethics, the best practices both for the delivery of psychedelic medicine and the training of clinicians. So a big focus there on best practices and ethics and so forth. And again, we have like Ingmar Gorman from Fluence, one of the leading training organizations and we've had some of the leaders from CIIs and Naropa who offer so two of the institutions offering professional certificate, postgraduate professional certificate programs and so forth.

In psychedelics.

In psychedelic medicines. Yeah.

Oh, wow. Interesting. Okay.

Yeah. Cis, the California Institute of Integral Studies has a postgraduate professional certificate program for psychiatric practitioners. So does Naropa University. Andrew Wiles center at the University of Arizona is developing one specifically for physicians and Influence is a non academic but training organization that's also certified psychedelic practitioners. Right.

Now let me, let me pause you right there. So in terms of, again, I'm putting myself in, in the shoes of a participant to the summit.

What is, how, what are the courses like?

What does it take to become.

Ethical?

Ethical, ethically competent to administer psychedelics as a Therapist, Is this a year long course? What is it? What might it take?

I think for me, I think it's minimally a year long course. People have different views about this and of course it depends on.

The clinician's background.

Licensed therapists, whether if they're master's level licensed therapists, like masters in family counseling or something like that. So there's a lot of practitioners have that level and then use your clinical psychologist and your Ph.D. clinical psychologist. And then there are social workers who are licensed social workers who practice therapy and so forth, psychiatrists and so forth. And they all have different training and they may have more or less training in the actual doing of therapy and they may have more or less experience in actually being in therapy. You know, they may have done more or less of their own personal work. Right. They may have greater or lesser understanding of the dynamics of transference and countertransference and so forth. Now, assuming that most licensed professionals at least have a good body of the things that I just mentioned, then what do we need to add to that? But we also need to keep in mind that.

In practicing psychedelic assisted therapy now there are different ones. Ketamine is very short acting. Psilocybin involves six to eight hour sessions. And so what skill set is involved in being able to not only prepare someone, but sit with someone for six or eight hours and then do the integration work following and it's really about how do you really hold a safe space? These medicines are very powerful. And so all the dynamics that are there in traditional psychotherapy, where there are risk of where things could go awry if the practitioner is not properly prepared, not fully aware, not fully present, not aware of some of the other own dynamics might get in the way. All that gets exacerbated with these psychedelic medicines. Right. So I think psychedelic practitioners really need to study the medicines. They need to understand something about the pharmacology involved, about the, the effects. I think they need actual experience in sitting with people who are having psychotic experiences. Now some programs are using intensive breath work because things like holotropic breath work pretty, in many cases very strongly mimic actual psychedelic experiences. And so without having to involve psychiatric medicines, they can allow therapists in training to have the experience of being with people who are having these kinds of experiences through breath work as opposed to actually medicines. Right, interesting. But there are opportunities in the trials and other ways for people to have these experiences. You know, one of the open questions out there is, do clinicians who practice psychedelic assisted psychotherapy need to have had experience with Psychedelics themselves, especially the ones they're using in their practice. I would say the majority of people I've interviewed say yes, they need to. There are a few that think maybe it's an open question, some think maybe it's an open question. But I think the, the consensus view out there is that they need to have their own experience. Right. I mean ideally, you would think ideally, it seems like a no brainer, but, you know, and I don't mean to be critical, but there are, there are a lot of mental health professionals who provide mental health services in one way or another who have not done a lot of personal work. Right.

And they may be quite competent at referring people and doing things and getting people to a psychiatrist for prescription medicine and they do that. But I think in this work it's really important that the therapist has done their own work and both certainly even without psychiatrics, that they've done some of their own personal evolution, therapeutic psychological work and so they have greater insight into themselves and they know who's showing up there to support the, the patient and they have those levels of self awareness, that kind of training and. But then personally I think probably it's good for them to have had experience with these psychiatric medicines. And of course it's always important for clinicians to have a supervisory relationship with another clinician. Right. So I think, I think all these things are really quite important. So I think in terms of the training, it's not something that a current licensed practitioner should think about doing a weekend workshop and then doing it, whether it's six months, whether it's a year, I don't know, I think it could be somewhere in between six months to a year of a good solid training program, but then ongoing continuing education, staying current with the field and continuing to do their own work. Because the main thing is these, at bringing psychedelic medicines into the therapeutic context. For me it raises the bar for everything because these are powerful medicines and they can really accelerate and accentuate the healing potentials. But there could also be an exacerbation of risk or harm if not held properly.

This summit sounds incredible, but it also sounds very.

Well put together. Sounds like you thought of everything. In other words, what to present and how to approach it. It's very impressive. As we close out here, Fleet, how do people learn about this?

Well, you can just go to the website, the Land page, you can go to heartmind Co Trauma, heartmind Co Trauma and that'll take you to the, to the registration page for the Psychiatric Assist Therapy Summit.

Okay.

And you can Always reach out to us at heartmind Co and I believe probably in the Show Notes in your for this episode you'll have the links and so forth. But there's a full registration page. We are registering now. It's open for registration now. There's already. There's already I think about 15,000 people registered already. And.

So we're actively registering and.

Yeah, so people can go right to the page and read all about. You'll see all the speakers, you'll see the schedule, you see everything that's going to happen. You can read all about all the information there. And you'll also have the opportunity to learn about the if someone's interested again is a complete free summit and you can participate in it having 48 hours each day's presentations between October 8th and 14th. And if you wanted to retain this as a resource, you'll be able to purchase lifetime access for amazingly low cost. And then there will also be the option of joining the Psychedelic Practitioners Academy which will give you all access.

Interesting as well. All right, well again we'll have this linked up here at the Show Notes page at the trauma therapist podcast.com fleet. Awesome man. So exciting and looking forward to getting this out there. Appreciate you being here.

Well, I appreciate the opportunity to speak to your audience. I know your audience are primarily trauma therapists and this is such just an area of passion for me. And all the work that we do is trauma informed. I'm very involved in the public safety criminal justice space through our nonprofit and we've been studying trauma and how to really deliver trauma informed care and trauma informed interventions and programs with populations and individuals that have been placed at risk, that have been marginalized and under resourced and so forth. So I just, I know, I love your community. I'm speaking to your audience. You are the people involved in this kind of trauma healing. Trauma work I think are some of the most amazing human beings on the planet. And I think you'll find this somewhat fascinating because that's really what this summit is all about in the context of the potential that these psychedelic medicines have for healing trauma.

I appreciate it. All right sir, we'll be in touch. Thank you.

Okay, thank you guy.

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